Horizontal Boring Mill Restoration: Installing Turcite Wear Strips to the Machine Ways
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- Опубликовано: 9 фев 2023
- Horizontal Boring Mill Restoration: Installing Turcite Wear Strips to the Machine Ways
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I was a scraper at Continental Machines in Savage, Mn., where DoAll surface grinders and saws were made. About 10% of grinders were ordered with Turcite ways. I remember it being easy to work with and easy to scrape too. Turcite cost extra but but it was a little less labor because we would just rough in the ways on the top of the saddle with the Viaax power scraper, apply the Turcite the same way as how Keith did it , scrape in the Turcite, and cut in the oil grooves. The rest of the machine had regular cast iron hand scraped ways. This was in the late 70's-80's. We thought Turcite was an excellent product!
thanks for showing us another step in getting you boring mill restored for use
Watching you scratch the scraped surface was indeed painful. Even with all of the warnings. Sort of like passing a kidney stone. Good work as always. Thanks for another excellent video, even if it was a bit traumatic.
Now that you are putting another machine in the books, have you considered having a machinery tag made up with your name and date of refurbishment to place on the machine?
I am still watching. Great to see the machining centre coming together.
I have been using epoxy resins and adhesives for going on 60 years. Besides what others are saying about using a scale to measure, my observation is that the layer of adhesive is about 10 times thicker than it should be. A V-notch trowel is good for tile setting with mastic or thin-set, but leaves an immense thickness in this sort of application.
I agree with Jennifer regarding the use of the v notch trowel. The notches are cut to a depth to leave the correct film thickness of adhesive when the points of the notches contact the base material which the adhesive is being applied to.
Great job with the epoxy. I usually end up with epoxy everywhere including all over my hands.
That is the only epoxy we would use. It works well on rulon as well. It flows well and fills gaps as well.
I'm not really into machinery but it is very interesting watching you restore these beautiful machines
It will be interesting to see how you handle the oil holes and channels, whether you re-establish the old channels, or if you can just do new ones.
I was thinking the same thing. totally filled the channel with epoxy.
My eyes didn't bleed, but i almost cried when you went to work with that scraper. Always wanted to know more about Turcite. Great video as always.
Thanks Keith, been looking forward to this one to see how this Turcite stuff works.
NitroTom91 is correct, along with that, the serrations in the applicator are for consistency in adhesive leveling. Just like a trowel for flooring adhesive or tile setting. Different size serration(notches) for different applications. Consistent adhesive=level surface.
Interesting about the epoxy cure time: I seem to recall that chemical reactions can have a solid state where cure is in. Also I agree with the 48 hours to allow for the turning the corner when the epoxy becomes fully reacted. It's nice that the epoxy is machinery gray.
Ok.but check the exactly weight of 2 components exposy before you mix.dont do like video
Good series!
Looks great
Hiya Keith
Way cool. Thanks
excellent work kieth!
Nice work Keith
Thank you for sharing. 👍
Thanks for sharing good info Keith
Super Video Keith! It was nice to see that straightedge in the background on the base. I look forward to see the next videos.
great stuff!! nice n easy ya doing great!!!
Great video Keith, keep'um coming..
Keith - it hurt to see you have to scratch the snot out of the freshly scraped areas, but you gotta do what you gotta do. On another note, I know you are losing weight, and it shows. I know from experience that it's tough to do and keep it off. Keep with it, brother!
Thanks!!
Nice demonstration of installing turcite. Thank you.
always learning Very good Video
Looks good! I did notice that you covered the circular oil grooves and supply hole with Turcite. That would eliminate lubrication, and put a pocket of oil behind the Turcite. Do you plan to cut back the turcite to allow lubrication?
Really great to see how this is done.
Thanks for sharing. Look like your on your way to finishing.
Instead of cellophane wrap you can use clear shoe polish or what i use for release agent for bedding rifles, hardwood floor wax or renascence wax . It will give a way closer fit and no risk of the wrap leaving fold marks.
Agreed. I use KIWI clear paste wax shoe polish or Johnson's paste floor wax as release agent for bedding guns. Works great.
Can't wait to see you make the first chips on that machine.😁
Good morning Georgia! ⚙️📐😀👍
The end is in sight. Thanks.
Thanks Keith! Great information on installing Turcite! Very helpful !
ATB....Dean
If the piece that you are gluing Turcite to is really oily even after cleaning, then they make a de-oiling powder that works really well.
Keith you should rig up a pneumatic motor on that lift
KEITH, LOOKS GREAT, CAN'T WAIT FOR YOU TO USE IT, TELL ALL HELLO...SEE YOU WHEN...
I did not work with this particular product, however a few thoughts on using Epoxy in general to improve a process like this:
Epoxy is not contact glue. Use on one side only, especially if you are worried about tolerances and thickness.
Never estimate the two parts mixture. Be very careful and use scales to be as exact as possible. Most epoxies are VERY sensitive to deviations in mixture and will remain part jelly or at least be a lot weaker than intended.
Scratching the surface of the casting like that looks like a lot to the human eye, however sanding in courser grit will provide massive adhesion advantage over just scratching.
Again, I am not familiar with the data sheets of these particular products. But if you want the best outcome for all the effort and money involved and the data sheets do not say otherwise I strongly recommend you try these tips. Please feel free to correct me if there is more science you can share. The 'we have done it otherwise for decades' unfortunately doesn't prove a lot in terms of scientific quality.
My 90 year old master is a very knowledgeable man, but he searched the handwheel to wind up the z-axis on a multi-hundred-thousand Euro 5-axis cnc for weeks :)
Agreed on the scratching for sure. Better yet is to sand blast the area. Can’t beat that texture.
The manufacturer instructions for Turcite installation using their Waylock II Adhesive specify application to both surfaces using the serrated spatula.
@@nomen_meus Thank you for pointing that out. Would be interesting to know why they do that.
@@NitroTom91 I agree with you that the epoxy only needs to go on one surface. I'm pretty sure the recommendation to use on both surfaces is a financial reason. It gets you to spend double on the epoxy! And as the cost of the Turcite is exorbitant as well they get you both ways. Turcite has a very good rating but I feel the manufacturers rather overprice their product somewhat.
@@NitroTom91 I imagine applying to both sides makes sure the complete surface is wetted, if you do not do that with thin layers of epoxy it might not spread everywhere and there may be dry spots.
Given the cost of the Waylock 2 adhesive, one might have hoped that they would have supplied it in a dual component dispenser cartridge, to fit in a standard adhesive/sealer gun, rather than the wasteful and inconvenient tins. I have used some stud/bolt mounting epoxy for fixing my heavy winter swimming pool cover mountings into concrete. It comes in a stand alone dual dispenser with a screw knob on the bottom and a pack of 4 spiral mixing tubes which screw onto the front of the dispenser and are a throw away item after each use. This was around €20 for the whole thing, so I suspect the actual dispenser/mixer tubes are not expensive.
Oh I followed along at home and got sticker shock by proxy. 😀
Nice work as usual Keith!! P. S. Just for the record though, you're using the shackles the incorrect way; just flip them around.
What stops fine swarf particles from becoming embedded in the soft Turcite and this combination acting like a lap that abrades the cast iron ways ?
As you juggled the cross-slide into position on the ways, did the Turcite slide on the epoxy layer so that it is now out of position ?
$700, holy crapola!
How much thickness does the epoxy add to the thickness of the Turcite? About to do this myself on a lathe carriage
Can't wait to see how this works out. Thank you for doing this
😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😍😍😍😍😍😍Wow someone is making a lot of money on this product.
Need to check the weight of glues for have a best result
Hallo Mr. Rucker,
Allow me to congratulate for your excellent videos.
I am using the excellent “Southbend 9a” lathe for more than 40 years now, but as you can understand I am having some bed wear. I would like to ask you, what kind of material should I use for repair it (Turcite or any other), and which glue should I apply.
Thank you in advance.
S.Kopitsas, Athens Greece.
This is counter intuitive to me. Keith just spent all that time and effort to scrape the ways into precise alignment... then he scratches them up and epoxies these strips on top. Between the scratches, the epoxy, and the turcite, It seems like he just introduced a whole lot of variation into the system where he just eliminated all the variation.
If you are going to scrape the turcite into precise alignment, why bother scraping the ways in the first place?
Anyways, thanks for another interesting video !!
Doing the scraping first means the turcite will all be about the same thickness which is what you want. Probably gives a better bond too as scrape marks hold epoxy as well as they hold oil.
Today's a good day , ihave learned a new thing
Turcite is really nice stuff to use, is a little on the pricy side though..... It is commonly used on lead screws in smaller CNC stuff and many other applications. I am very curious to see how well this hold up in this application. Great work as always Keith!!
Merky me, I was happy that you allowed the ankillary pronunciation of a naked "c" as the "s" sound. I agree 100 perkent.
My jaw dropped after hearing the $700 dollar price tag.
That's cheap compared to the labor required for such a rebuild, so they charge what they can get away with.
Hi Keith, how the thickness of the material affects the alignment or the scrapped surfaces coplanarity?
By the time your 150 years old, you'll have everything all good, and set LOL (me too)
I always buy my turcite or rulon directly from China, and also, the epoxy glue i pay a fraction of the cost that I can buy it for in the UK that includes free shipping as well.i payed less £100 for both
.030 x 12" x 12" is $167. Must be good stuff.
I would have clamped that turcite down while cutting it. You never know when something may cause you to bump the bar - like coffee jitters, or a curious cat.
s: Acetone seems better at removing grease, fat and oil than alcohol my in experience. It does take longer to evaporate. Only downside is it will remove the natural oils from your hands.
Back when we were rebuilding steel mill roll grinders at my first real job, we machined the ways down and used aluminum nickel bronze plates screwed down to the casting with countersunk screws then we did a finish cut on the bridge mill (which was big enough to park three cars on. ) and machined oiling grooves. Then it was scraped in.
I don't have any knowledge of this things so i won't complain, but it looked so better before with your scraping.
What about the way the oiling system is it now abandoned with the turcite installed
Watching todays video I noticed the tercite covers the oil groves, doe this mean you will not need to oil the ways anymore
Hi Keith. Did you ever finish that White Mountain Ice Cream Maker?
what is the plan for the lubrication? i see the oil reliefs and passages are blocked
Great work Keith but $700, wow!! I have seen a liquid product like Turcite used as well, sets solid of course. What did they use before Turcite I wonder?
Cast iron lubricated with elbow grease!
I've seen older machines with a phenolic where we'd now use Turcite or Moglice. I remember seeing wood working machinery with HDPE strips.
@@russkepler Moglice - that was the other stuff. Stefan Gotteswinter has used that one a couple of his videos.
Sounds like Turcite needs some competition.
@@ellieprice363 Garlock has Multifil. No idea on cost difference
Are you fixing this machine so you could use it on the Diresta band saw?
I was told now days not to scrape the surface that faces up because it catches shavings and causes wear. Has anyone else heard of this?
And the oilways are not required anymore Kleth???
I have the same thoughts.
Lubricating channels are cut into the face of the Turcite, no deeper than half the thickness of the Turcite layer. Holes straight through are fine. You just don't want oil to get at the epoxy or it will deteriorate over time. It happened to my mill.. Teflon or not the ways still are lubricated.
Hi Keith ! great work as usual ;-) I was kinda puzzled you did obliterate all lubrication channels/rings when gluing the Turcite strips. Do you plan to reopen them once cured (which will be more cumbersome as you did not transfer the shapes/positions) or is the plan to go dry Trucite on dry cast iron ?
Keep up the good work, your videos are a weekly feast for the eyes !
-Phil
I see that a lot of people have questions on this. I thought those channels looked like “crop circles” from outer space visitors. They seem necessary for lubrication, but I assume that the Turcite, being Teflon based, provides a lubrication surface. Still, the oil passages are obviously blocked. I’m assuming that Keith will answer this in the follow up video.
One thing you don't want is for oil to get at the epoxy. My milling machine had the Turcite strips separate because the manufacturer cut the serpentine grooves too deep and the epoxy bond deteriorated over the years.I got it used so when I took it apart for reconditioning three out of the four strips fell off because of that. The instructions for Turcite state to not cut any lubricating channels deeper than half the thickness of the Turcite layer. Holes straight through are fine. Teflon or not the ways still are lubricated.
@@kennethstaszak9990 Thanks for the reply ! This must be the reason why Keith went this way - I did not look up the Turcite datasheet, but your explanation makes sense indeed. Hope Keith will address this for the sake of topic completeness, and it would then make sense he later reopens the oil passages.
My question is how long does turcite lasts compared to cast iron on cast iron surface?Or cast iron to hardened bedways? is it something that will last 10-20 years or will it wear down faster?
it will last years and year of daily use as long as its stays lubricated its a great material for this situation
Good way wipers are a must. Pressure lubrication is very helpful.
😛😛😛❤👍👍👍👍👍
Can it be used to rebuild the tailstock?
I've heard of people doing that but I'd wonder at the suitability of putting something slick on the bottom of the tailstock. One lathe I just shimmed the top casting on the base. Not sure if that's an option on this hbm, I think you can just tweak the support bushing up a bit and be ok.
@Russ Kepler the nose of the base casting on my 10" Atlas Frankenlathe is worn. I have other castings, but a curiosity for sure
@@anthonyraffin1034 It'd be relatively easy to scrape the base flat then see how much shim you need. Flat ways let you scrape the bottom on a surface plate and checked by keeping the top parallel to the plate. I'd bet the shim wouldn't need to be more than the .004 wear when you're done.
will you recut the oil groves back into turcite or does it not need them
I wondered about that.
The instructions for Turcite state to not cut any lubricating channels deeper than half the thickness of the Turcite layer. Holes straight through are fine. Teflon or not the ways still are lubricated.
@@kennethstaszak9990 thanks
I've probably asked this before since I'm such a regional language lover, but I'm not used to hearing "like such" used the way you do even though it's clear what you mean, of course. I'm more used to "like so" or even "like this." Is that a regional thing there? It it really common where you grew up (in Georgia?)
Oil holes? Ron W4BIN
I must of missed it, but why are you destroying the oiling ring on the upper surfaces, does Turcite remove the need for oiling?
Keith, you need to educate yourself... There is a difference between 'recommended' and 'coerced' or 'enforced'. In the UK, the epoxy adhesive system would not have had any action on the system warranty. That's probably why they market the stuff in the USA, differently from marketing in the UK.
Re: the price. Wow.
Doesn't that turcite slide around on that un-cured epoxy? Watching you slide saddle around my thought is that you just slid all that turcite around. I know that would be my luck...
How does future version of Keith remove the epoxy to replace the Turcite in 125 years?
carbide power scraper.
There are a few possible paths. He pushes a button and lets a robot do it. Or, he listens to the stories the elders tell about the Before Times when there were paper books, not these silly clay tablets.
It always puzzles me how you can know how much material has been worn that has to be built back up. I don’t see any original factory machined surfaces on the saddle ways.
Bro' you lost some pounds. You are gonna need to eat some to get back up to Abom's caliber.
As someone that has worked with Epoxies daily for the past 30 some odd years, I can tell you for a fact that you are applying incorrectly!! Epoxy is not a Contact Adhesive or a product like Wood Glue, you should always avoid apply epoxies to both piece to be joined, you should only apply it to _one surface_ . Applying it both surfaces causes voids to form which leads to poor adhesion, slippage and in your application throwing off tolerances bc of excess epoxy.
He did it by the book. Trelleborg wants you to do it this way.
WOW... $700 for the Turcite? Are sure it's infused with brass and not 24K gold?
Gotta say, this seems like an abomination after all that scraping. I get this is a standard thing, but yikes.
And your solution would be?
@@grntitan1 again, I accept this is a standard approach, but my “solution” would be no turcite. Just a visceral reaction.
My first reaction was 1/16 Turcite is much too thick for the minuscule amount of material removed by scraping. On second thought however the Turcite thickness was apparently compensated by appropriate material ground from the longer table ways.
Love ya, Keith. Love your channel. Love your presentation. Love your personality. I just can't do it anymore......I cannot watch ANOTHER scraping video.....I just can't do it.
Make a video watching paint dry, PLEASE. Make a videp of snails racing, PLEASE. Make a video of human hair growth, I will watch those videos. But I cannot watch another scraping video. I am totally burned out on scraping.
I totally love scraping videos and can't get enough of them!
But Keith has gotten particularly good at it, so to me highly watchable. Abom79, not so much and I don't think he particularly likes doing it.
I do understand the reason for scraping but it surprises me that the ways are ground flat to high tolerance and then the grinding is negated by scraping.
2 perfectly flat surfaces dont allow good oil flow in between them it would require a constant pressurized lube system those tiny divots hold oil to minimize wear
@@peterhobson3262 As I understand it , the scraping brings it to a higher tolerance than the grinding as well as doing the oil flow bit.
If you''ve got epoxy, remember: it can be cured!
I'm sorry. I had to skip the scrapping part. I was just so unnatural. like fingernails to a chalkboard.
You look like you’ve been loosing some weight?
This comment is early on in this video. Are you sure you want to cover up those round oil journals?
I like most videos, but I really dislike having to hear your
Heavily strained breathing to come with over a gentleman. It really is the weight rvyjst part about your videos, your strength breathing, such a high volume.
Everybody got to breath.