Low Recoil Battle - .38 Short Colt LRN VS .380 ACP FMJ
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- By popular demand through comments, I am testing the Remington .38 Short 125 gr LRN through my 4" barrel VS a 95 gr .380 ACP full metal jacket. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.co...
I really enjoy the testing of antiquated ammunition. Nobody else bothers so I thank you! Well done as always. 👍💪😎
Thanks. I find this stuff interesting for testing. The only other person that seems to be similar in desire to test this stuff is Lucky Gunner.
(looks up from workbench loading 180 grain 38 Specials, says:). Antiquated!? Hey. I resemble that remark!
Similar size but .380 is a lot easier to get your hands on than .38 Short or .38 Long for that matter.
NO Sam don't compare these 2 ----- BUT ----- I'll watch anyway --- you always do a good review
Fantatic shooting with the .38 short colt, Sam.. Freebore didn't hurt at all!
I think honestly it's the marshmallow effect lol. Oversized lead bullets hitting the bore seems to reform perfectly and become very accurate.
For the algorithm brother....keep up the good work
Me too!
Thanks for the video Sam. I really look forward to them. When I was a teenager the local pistol range was 50 yards. And my friends and I use to practice at that range half the time. We had a lot of fun. It made us much better shots . Before deer season we practiced at 75 yards . Years ago when they redid the range they reduced it to 25 yards. I saw a government statistics that stated the the most deadly caliber in self defense shootings is the 380 . It stated that the reason is more women were involved in self defense shootings and they usually use a 380 . Don't know if it is true or not. But it does make sense.
I don't discount a .380 acp either, but the .38 short Colt is so old it could have been Tutankhamon's edc and yet 4 shots at 75 yards are in the A zone, I don't think there are that many rounds that will do so well.
Great shooting with the 38 short! The 38 S&W(145-6 gr) was always said to be an accurate load. Interestingly, Buffalo Bore's hot 38 S&W is a 125 grain bullet, just like this short colt. I really appreciate the breadth of your testing. The handgun shooting sport has so many facets. One of them is collecting and using older guns, like the 32 cal series, 38 S&W, the 44 series, etc. You are doing many of us a great service with testing many of these or their modern ballistic equivalents.
Thanks for watching!
I'm impressed that you know about the 38 S&W. I have a revolver chambered in the cartridge that belonged to my Great Uncle. I fired it a few times at woodchucks, and it didn't perform very well. Still, it's an interesting gun.
@@ghostinthemachine8243Agree. Interestingly, the old Smith and Wesson ads described their little Terrier 38 S&W revolver as small and light but with still adequate "shocking power". When humans are shot there is often the psychological shock of being shot with anything while with animals the physiological effects are the sole factor with shot placement being the main thing.
@@arnoldcohen1250 Lead round nose was probably not the best bullet for the job.
@@ghostinthemachine8243 Another thing Gun Sam has done is extensive testing with the old LRN bullet. I have always been amazed and confused by those tests.
This is why we love you Sam!
Because my channel's testing doesn't 'revolve' around testing 9mm, and comparing to 9mm, along with the oddball caliber - 9mm, and ending with "with modern bullet technology, 9mm beats every cartridge that exists"? lol
Keep the videos coming Sam your ballistics test videos are the only ones I trust keep up the good work brother
Can you do 40 caliber vs .38 super! But not 180gr only 135gr to 165gr for the 40 caliber
You’re doing a great job showing us a diverse range of cartridges. Thank you
The 380 wins on ammo availability because I can't find 38 Short anywhere, they are sold out. The 380 FMJ overpenetrated so the 38 Short won. People who want less recoil and blast are not experienced shooters typically so a revolver loaded with 38 Short would be a better and safer option for them. Of course 148 grain wadcutter loads might work for them in case 38 Short ammo is not available. Maybe a comparison between the 38 Short and 38 Special 148 grain wadcutter load might be worthwhile. Thanks for another great video.
Good stuff good tests. Now 32acp vs 22LR and 22 Mag
I'm always scared to watch your videos because I know I'll be spending my "lunch money" right after your video! I bought a new snubbie after your "pelvis breaker" video and can't wait to get to the range this weekend. Keep up the good work!
NOW HIRING !
Need a model to stand down range of gel block, between blocks, to verify 380 ACP over penetration…
This is for science not RUclips Click Bait…
Seems like the people who do that, plan it out but somehow something always goes wrong. LIke I could calculate two blocks stops them, my luck it would veer out the top and smack me in the face.
Can't choose between my Taurus 856 defender loaded with Buffalo Bore 158 grain +P LSWHP or buying a Ruger SP101 3" in .327 magnum. Weight on both is not an issue for me. Trying to figure out if the buy is worth it. The BB 38 is a nasty round. But how does it compare to your average .327 jhp load from federal or Winchester?
Buy the 38 you can't find 327 as often or 32 H&R
Surprising penetration on the 38 there. If you put the hole in the right spot you'll still stop the threat. Velocity not bad either compared to the old RN 38 Spl.
Great comparison. Keep em coming 👍
That's interesting. Some would say that you actually need a gun that was made for 38 short Colt because of the distance between the bullet and the barrel. I say just use 38 special wad-cutters and don't worry about it 😊.
Yeah, the wadcutters are about the same as these for power and effectiveness and my ultimate recommendation to people who can't find obscure rounds like this. I do tests like this for people very very recoil sensitive, so if a person has bad wrists or whatever, I will suggest something like this and if they say they can't find them, I say if you can handle this, you pretty much can handle .38 SPL wadcutters just as well.
@@GunSam
Yep either that or go get your self a 22.
@@GunSamSo only if fast
?700plus? wadcutters bothered a person would one try to find these .38 short right?
And I guess maybe introducing new shooters?
Where does
.38 long come in to the discussion, if at all?
I understand .32, .32mag.327 Federal is worth looking into with .32 long being good for low recoil but there are so many.38s out there I find this content very valuable.
@@GunSam I load 38 Special wadcutters in my vintage lightweight Colt Agent.
I also have a box of 38 Short Colt but have not shot it yet. Thanks for your informative video.
Sam do you think you would ever do something where you interact with us live.....like a premier the way Dan does for live chat. Or going live. I appreciate the way you keep it strictly business and stay out of the political stuff and sometimes people say too much, too fast when people ask questions. But just wondering if you ever considered it. Even it's just the chat version, I'm sure people would want to ask you some questions
Could the .38 short Colt be hand loaded a little hotter? Also how does .38 LC compare with .38 Special? Always enjoy your videos thanks:)
I've never tested .38 Long Colt, but it's basically in comparison to .38 Short Colt the same as .22 Short is to .38 Long Rifle - about the same velocity but the Long Colt does it with a 158 gr bullet instead of 125 gr. I've loaded .38 Short Colt much hotter, but they for sure way over SAAMI specs, so technically not a ".38 Short Colt"
@@GunSam 38 LC is kind of scarce but is used in the Navy BP conversion cylinders. The 38 special will only fit in those cylinders if it is a wad cutter. I’ve never personally shot it though. I’m wondering if you’re wildly inaccurate .380 is due to the (maybe?) too hard FMJ not grabbing the rifling?
Also, years ago i found that a medium size 380 can be a great training gun. An LE colleague brought his wife to my club for training, before getting her CCW permit. 2 of the guns he brought did not work well for her. The SCCY was one step above junk. My old Kel-Tec P11 was better. His ond S&W 459 did not fit her hand, and the Pachmayr grip made it worse. However, the Beretta 84 that he brought was great. Modest recoil, smooth trigger, the good accuracy that blowback guns often have, and i even liked the smooth walnut grips. I can't really get behind 380 for defense, although it does seem to work for some people. But in a midsize gun like the Beretta or the EZ, it makes a good trainer
Nice test as always. A few years ago, Fortune Cookie 45 LC had a video where he was getting substantially better velocities with handloads within standard pressure limits. Unique and Herco i think. New Starline brass. As we know from rifles, a shorter powder column tends to burn more efficiently. Certainly there is less wasted air space than in a 38 Spl. It was food for thought. The 38 S&W had a mild resurgence back when, due to the importation of all the S&W "Victory" revolvers made for the British in WW2. Their 380-200, as they called it, was a heavy bullet 38 S&W. They were also made in 38 Spl for our troops of course, mainly pilots. 38 S&W ballistics are about the same as the 38 Short Colt here. Some if the omd rounds are still reasonably capable, and of course they make great mild training ammo. But they tend to be expensive due to lower economies of scale. Lots of fun though
Great test! So this Remington 38 short colt or Fiocchi 38 Special 148gr wadcutter for low recoil CCW round? Thx! 😎
I got curious about early center fire revolver cartridges. The exact date of the .38 heel outside lubricated .375 colt (Short) I could not find, but it was used to convert 36 navy chambered guns to cartridges. An outside lubricated .359 inside lube version was designed later.
The 32, colt (Short colt) that the brits invented as the .320 does have a firm date to it.
Designed 1868
Produced 1868 - 1920s
The old rounds penetrated reasonably well when fired into an abdomen covered with the clothing of the day. But hitting anything hard such as a speech that Teddy Roosevelt had folded in his breast pocket would slow it down considerably. In one case I read of during a strike A union leader named Big Bill Haywood of the western federation miners (IIRC) shot a deputized strike breaker three times with one from a cheap top break revolver that I think was .38 SC two of the bullets were stopped by the mans forearm. He quipped later on when he heard that the man was only badly hurt in the hospital that next time he would use a stronger shooting gun.
Always a great video. Still seeing those two boxes of .38 Short Colt at the gun shop I most frequent, and will probably grab them just because next time I’m in there. Big .380 fan, and I appreciate the comparison!
And you can shoot both short and long .38 Colt out of a .38 Special or .357 Magnum revolver.
I think .50 Remington Navy was the first. Then .44-40 became the overwhelming favorite. I could be wrong, but I pretty sure. Interesting video.
Interesting comparison. I'd never really thought about weaker 38 loads. That's why I try not to miss any episodes on the channel, always a learning experience 👍
Good stuff, thank you so much for this! I know for a fact I'm one of the people that's been askin about a video on 38 short colt no doubt. I have an 1851 navy with a 7.5 inch barrel that's been converted to 38 special and shoot that exact same ammo in it from time to time. I too have found it to be silly accurate out of my revolver and do carry it in the woods from time to time just because. Alot of the areas I have only have critters up to the size of a fox normally, but I'm sure if I had to, I could use it if a coyote or something tried to give me any issues. It's a cool little cartridge and very fun to shoot, just hate how hard it is to find and how much it cost....
Gun sam. Were you using a 38 spl to fire the 38 short colt. Very interesting video thank you.😊
Excellent and helpful comparison. Idk where I’ve been all these years but never realized we could shoot .38 short colt in a .357. I always thought the cylinder chamber was too long.
I used to have a 380 EZ and I couldn't hit the earth with it. I sold it to a co-worker. I think there's something wrong with the EZ guns design or something. Lol
Really good commentary
Thanks.
Interesting as always. In the day just about everyone got a top break revolver in .38 short at the hardware store for a cheap carry gun. The amazing thing is that you found someplace that still sells the rounds!
Those top breaks were .38 S&W, not .38 Colts. Totally different cartridge. Also, .38 S&W was never called, even colloquially, a .38 short. It was called the .38 "Regular," as opposed to the .38 "Special."
@@lookythat2 Thanks for the correction. I
t has only been forty or fifty years since I handled one and I have forgotten a lot.
I didn’t know 38 shorts existed, great video 👍
I don’t think I’ve ever shot 38 short Colt? 🤔🤷♂️
GS. Good video. Very interesting video and ammo comparison. As always, thanks for sharing and take care.
Thank you
Gun Sam unless im shooting my colt 1911. Ill take a revolver every time. At 75 yards that 38 colt short would kill ya. Awsome revolver shooting. New a super mag is always better.. 😊😊
A new super mag isn't always better. My phone changes what I type. 😊
38 short Colt for the win! My wife uses these in her snubbies. Low recoil and easy to shoot 😊
Do you have to order online?
@@michaelkulman7095 yes I do
Great information, thanks!
where do you find .38 short these days ?
380 ACP isnt loud but these 38 Short Colt were significant quieter. Do you know the pressure of 38 SC?
Max CIP pressure is 13,000 PSI. I don't knw what SAAMI has it at. I don't know what actual pressure these are at, no one would know without testing them.
@@GunSam Ok thanks. That would be even lower than SAAMI 45 Colt.
i like the long range shooting, if you can hit at 100 yards, it makes 10 yards seem almost too easy.
That's the way I see it. Trains your eyes and steadiness well. My ultimate goal is to be able to never use the sights up to 10 yards, and have such muscle memory that I can pop off 6 to 10 rounds in an 8" circle at 10 yards with no sight picture, just muscle memory.
May I ask where you got the short colt?
Incredible difference in accuracy
What speed loader is that in the beginning? Kind of looks like an S.L. Variant.
If I recall, it's the Safariland comp 3
Great video, as always!...
I ❤ this channel! 🤩
40 cal vs 38 super
SAM: SUGGESTIONS for future vids - 380 ACP vs 32 H&R Mag; 380 ACP vs 38 S&W Long; and 32 H&R Mag vs 38 S&W Long... all from short barreled pocket guns such as Ruger LCR or S&W 632UC for the 32 H&R, Sig P238 or Glock 42 for the 380 ACP, and S&W J Frame for the 38 S&W Long.. Now, that would be 3 GREAT comparisons!!
howdy
Fun video
👍👍
38 short? Huh? Great video, enjoy the education and your end of the video breakdown.. 👍🏻
Nice !
PizzA
Have you considered doing a loading of a 32 cartridge with one of the "pelvis breaker" type bullet? just saying that bullets for the 303 brit. are the same diameter but im not certain that's a stellar idea. love the videos
The 75 yard shooting really surprised me. Not with the 380. I suspect those bullets are starting to tumble through the air and that's why you are getting such a wide dispersion. The 38SC are probably more stable in flight, giving you that near rifle like accuracy. Just speculation on my part of course.
I was surprised too. But even up close they seemed to be accurate. I'm guessing most soft lead oversized bullets would be accurate in this 686, as they seem to have always been accurate. Freebore obviously didn't to anything negative.
BTW, no rush on those 145 gr bullets. I plan to work up something spicy at 890 FPS+ with the 158 gr LHP bullets I am ordering, might be a couple weeks before i'd start on your bullets anyways. I figure if I can get that load up to 850 FPS in a snub, and if those 145's are about the same overall length, we might be right where we want to be for velocity. I'll overcharge if I have to being .357 Mag revolvers.
@@GunSam Fair enough. As per my last communication, I've got the 145s and 130s packed. I just need to go to USPS to get a proper box. They have good reviews. Just an insane lead time! And I swear the pictures don't do the hollow points justice. I think you'll like them. I don't think excessive pressure for 38+P will be an issue even in a 38Spl+P Air Weight to be honest. I think it's just the same cylinder bored for the .357 Mag length brass. Max strain on the top strap is pretty much down to bore friction. At least that''s what my engineering tells me. That said, it's really the velocity that matters and energy dump is also about material as well as velocity and bullet weight. Once the bullet starts opening up, it's going to start slowing down right quick.
@@Fudmottin From what I have always been told, proof rounds are double pressure. That would mean an overcharged load of 34,000 PSI is always shot through a .38 Special revolver. Now obviously a steady diet of that is not good, but also from the way I understand it, guns don't slowly wear down and then pop. If there's too much pressure, it's going to blow off the barrel and top strap with a single round of overcharged load, whether or not you ever did it before. So basically at the end of the day, if a "max charge" in a book happens to list like 18,900 PSI for let's say a .38 Special with 4.6 gr of Universal, I am not going to sweat 5.0 gr. While I can't prove pressures, my common logic says "21,000 PSI" and nowhere near reaching modern metallurgy limits for aluminum alloy. That's my take on it.
@@GunSam That would be my take on it too.
I believe the original .38 Colts were conversions of 1851 and 1861 Navies. If so, those were relatively heavy guns with 7.5" barrels, so maybe not too far off from a 4"686.
Another great vid..... I'd like to see a test with .38 S&W...which is a little easier to find...and cheaper than .38 Short Colt....at least in my area. But unlike the short Colt, I guess you shouldn't fire it out of a .38 Special revolver. Good to see these tests for people who are recoil sensitive....
👍😊
Thanks for the video Sam,smaller calibers are great for better controlability and man are you one hell of a marksman, you know your stuff !...except for the .22lr the ammo support on the smaller calibers leaves quite a bit to be desired!
I am back , spent some time in Italia. Will have to get caught. Best Always
can't find short colt anywhere???
Thanks for doing this test. The old cartridges are facinating.
Have you tried your 213 grain LRN in either of the Colt cases? Thinking they might help getting within 38 spl OAL using the crimp groove.
I messed around with if they would work, not even close lol. There's just nowhere to crimp and there's so little in the case, the bullet can be bent out of the case easily.
A few notes about 38 nomenclature.
The 38 Short Colt with heelless bullet, 38 Long Colt, 38 Special, and 357 Magnum all use .357 caliber projectiles and their cases differ only in length and power level. You can chamber and fire the shorter rounds in the longer chambers, but do not attempt the reverse. Even if a longer round fits in a shorter chambering, the cylinder is not designed to handle the greater pressures and may self-destruct.
The 38 S&W, 380 British, 38/200, and 38 Colt New Police are nominally .360 caliber and are fully interchangeable with each other but are too large in diameter to fit in any gun chambered for the cartridges listed in the paragraph above. Some 38/200 guns have been rechambered to 38 Special by reaming their chambers deeper to accommodate the 38 Special case. The result is that the 38 Special cases are prone to bulge and rupture when fired because the 38 S&W chambers were already too wide to allow proper fitting of the 38 Special case. Deepening the chambers did not resolve this issue; it merely allowed and undersized case to now fully seat in the cylinder.
While not ideal, you can basically get away with a .360" bullet in a .38 Special or .357 Magnum revolver, as long as it's a pure lead bullet. I watched Paul Harrell's video a couple years ago where he attempted to chamber and fire .38 S&W in a variety of .38 Special and .357 Magnum revolvers, some would fit and some would not, however if I recall the Remington .38 S&W reliably fit into all the revolvers he tried it in.
As an overview, it IS sound advice to tell people they CANNOT shoot Remington .38 S&W in their .38 and .357 Revolvers because they won't take to heart all the small details more experienced people know, such as how .38 S&W is as low as .38 Special for pressure and that lead deforms, so they might get the idea that they can cram a Buffalo Bore hard cast .38 S&W in a .38 Special revolver made in 1950 and be fine....
@@GunSam Yes, I saw his video and avoided mention of it because this topic is already too confusing without a crib sheet. Even more concerning to me are all the old Colt 38 revolvers with bored through chambers that lack the case mouth step that will prevent a 357 round from fitting. Firing such a cartridge in them almost guarantees destruction of the cylinder and a possible trip to the emergency room.
At 75 yards the 38 short colt was smacking that steel with the power of a slingshot.
Well, over that range you are still looking at 500 FPS and like 70 ft lbs of energy. If you can kindly upload a video of such a badass slingshot so I can watch it, I would appreciate it.
@@GunSam lol... don't get upset, I was trying to be funny.
try 38sw se how that compares.
From my understanding, Remington .38 S&W should fit my .357 Mag revolvers, but other brands may not.
Great to see the revolvers returning to the revolver channel.
They never went away lol. I did do several videos where it was like ".357 Sig VS 9mm+P" and stuff like that, and I will continue to do so, but I am regaining some more of the interest into oldschool revolver stuff. Like I have more .38 Special 'Super Police' videos coming, I am buying more .38 and .32 Wadcutters and I am also working up the FBI load, .38 Special 158 gr LHP at 900 FPS to test. Most of the modern loadings of that load do not hit the 900 FPS they are meant to, they hit more like 750 FPS and thus I cannot do realistic oldcshool tests like I want to, so I got to make some!
@@GunSam definitely looking forward to all of those, especially the FBI load. I found that i got increased leading at anything over 860fps (Speer 158gr LSWCHP, through a 4” model 13). Would also like to see your take on the old “Treasury Load”, with the 110gr SJHP (we were issued those in Australia back in the 90s).
@@GunSam I have my 180 grain hard cast up to almost 900 out of the 4" M-64 and about 800 from the 2" M-640. But that seems to be the limit if I want to keep them at Standard Pressure. Maybe, later in the summer, I might push them to 38+P just for giggles.
Hi Sam, is the 38 colt short the same as the 38 s&w new police?
I don't believe that the .38 S&W family is the same as the .38 Short Colt. Like the .38 Short Colt is the great grandparent, parent in order of .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38 S&W Special, .357 Magnum, .357 Maximum. Straight '.38 S&W' (without the special at the end) is in another family.
38 Short Colt:
Bullet diameter .358 inches (9.1 mm) for modern loads
Rim diameter .445 in (11.3 mm)
Rim thickness .060 in (1.5 mm)
Case length .765 in (19.4 mm)
Overall length 1.2 in (30.48 mm)
38 S&W:
Bullet diameter .361 in (9.2 mm)
Rim diameter .440 in (11.2 mm)
Rim thickness .055 in (1.4 mm)
Case length .775 in (19.7 mm)
Overall length 1.240 in (31.5 mm)
Thanks
@@bdwillis8284 Most welcome.
Duelist1954 has a video called 19th century .38 caliber cartridges demystified and trust me there is no better video laying it all out.
just wonderin,is there a 38 long colt???i havent seen one yet!!!
Yes but I never tried it yet
Yes. 38 Long Colt was the US service cartridge, starting in 1889 i believe, in the first swing out cylinder DA Colts. I think it was a 145 or 150 gr LRN at barely 700-750 fps. During the Spanish-American war and the subsequent Philippine Insurrection, officers armed only with their revolvers found that they did not stop charging Moros (legend has it that locally manufactured pharmaceuticals were also involved). It was a huge step down from the power of the 45 Colt, which had served since 1873. This led to the Thompson-LaGarde tests of handgun ammo in 1904-05, which led to the 45 ACP cartridge in 1905. Fun fact: the Army designed a 45 Colt with a more prominent rim for the extractor of a DA revolver, and issued it with the Colt New Service in 1909. Reserve and second line units had to load 3 rounds in SAA's, alternating chambers to avoid the rims interfering with each other. But it was still better than the 38. JMB perfected an auto pistol in 45 ACP by 1911, and the rest is history. Interestingly, the original ballistics of the 45 ACP closely mirror that of the 45 Smith & Wesson (Schofield), essentially a short 45 Colt from the 1870's and 1880's. TMI, i know, but firearms history is so interesting.
why would anyone carry a 38 short colt. revolvers are obsolete anyway. low capacity, slow reload.
With a question worded that way, i'm not going to explain all the reasons why someone would, because with your attitude about it, I think it would all go over your head.
Hummm, don’t see the thumbs down numbers anymore on the u tube, ‘cause that apparently hurts feelings. 😂
@parisford2020 would be in tears. Not hatein, just sayin. 👍