Common Modern Reproduction Errors: The Breastplate
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- Common Modern Repro Errors will focus on some of the avoidable errors that are commonly seen in modern reproduction armor. Breastplates are a constant offender, usually getting the proportions very different from what is commonly seen on historical examples.
My breastplate was made by Jeff Wasson - www.wassonartistry.com
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"Crushing your larynx is not a feature desirable in armor" ... How strange ...
I'm afraid that laptop is gonna fall off the edge ...
I disagree
Incredible video very useful and that explains why I felt my samurai armour so light on my body, after watchign your video I checked the breastplate or the "do" in Japanese and indeed it follows the same rules you have indicated, showing that also in Japan we have a similar concept, very interesting.
Oh and great intro and video quality, fantastic lighting and post production too! This is probably my favourite video of yours.
+Metatron Thanks Raffaello! While the styles look very different (Japanese and European), I suspect they have a lot in common since they both needed to be functional on the same basic human form. These guys understood how the body worked and definitely exploited that knowledge in the way they built armor! And thank you about the production quality! I'm always trying to make it a little better over time :)
+Metatron I was thinking that when I watched your video Raf, how short and curved and similar in fundamental form it was to a European breastplate.
+Metatron Funny, I watch both of your videos regularly. It's cool to see you two interacting, perhaps collaborating.
Subscribed here due to your recent reccommendation. This is the first one I've seen. It's an excellent video. Of course it adds to the list of things that will spoil movies and TV shows a bit, but the historical truth is more important.
Of course that concept is also found in japanese armor. Japanese skeletons are not significantly different from those of all other humans.
So that people can understand what he says, I have an example. I played center snare drum for my high school marching band, and they are held in front by harnesses with shoulder straps and a rounded triangle-shaped plate which is supposed to sit against your abs. For my first few months, out of necessity I wore a harness which was too long so that the bottom two corners rested on my hips. Both my hips were heavily bruised on the crests, and my left hip is actually permanently damaged from when the drum was crushed into my joint by another weight.
You need things to fit properly if you're going to bear weight.
Sorry to hear about your injury, but thanks for the info!
My favorite thing about this was that you weren't condescending at all about the subject. It's a breath of fresh air to be honest. Always looking forward to more!
I physically cringed when you showed the diagram of the overly long breastplate and you described the motion of it pressing into your neck
this is gonna be a cool series.
So, what you're saying is that you can actually get hurt by your own armo- *cough*
...sorry about that
Man, it is really hard to not sit forward while typing...
I actually laughed a bit at this comment, well done :)
Now this is good stuff. Breaking it down to the basics of functionality. I look forward to the next videos. I think I kinda already knew this about breastplates, but I expect I'll learn much more from the following videos.
Another great video in the series. I have learnt so much from these. Keep up the excellent work.
Very instructive video, as usual. Great for us interested in the mechanics of real historical armour.
Thank you for taking the time and efford to do videos like this one....
Really dig the new intro. Fantastic lighting and composition!
This is great stuff. 've come to expect that from your videos. It is something that I've often wondered about, just how do you tell if something is historical or not? I'm certainly looking forward to more in this new series, as well as more from the pieces of armor series. Hopefully some armorers will lend you pieces for demonstration.
I also really like the new intro. It makes things look even more professional.
A very informative and enjoyable video, thanks for posting it!
Glad to see another video. Your content is top notch.
Thank you. Excellent . There are only a smallish number of people who subscribe to this sort of thing, but I bet that your 23,628 subscribers are getting a lot from this content. Anyway, I've subscribed.
New game: Take a shot every time he says 'Natural Waist'
Disclaimer: I cannot be held accountable for any injuries towards the brain, liver or the potential death of the subject.
It's a pity they don't have English subtitles on their videos, it would help to understand them for non-English speakers, or those of us who don't have that much practice.
I guess RUclips makes it automatic but the owner of the videos has to activate it.
Thank you very much for your work!
Lastima no tener subtítulos en inglés en sus videos, ayudaría a su comprensión para los no angloparlantes , o los que no tenemos tanta práctica.
Supongo que RUclips lo hace automático pero el propietario de los los vídeos tiene que activarlo.
Muchas gracias por su trabajo!!!
This is vary helpful for people trying to recreate armor. I would like to hear your thoughts on how back plates should fit as well.
Dear Mr. Errant,
I would love to see a video about common errors the armourers make on late medieval helmets - the armets. I think they are incredibly sophisticated and I'm very interested in the their form.
Keep up the good work, you're very interesting to listen to.
Best channel that talks about armor in the World !!
"Not a feature desirable in armor." LOL, priceless!
Great content as always. Wished I had seen it before my July of Athena purchase. I wonders if I can trim it to a proper length?
That's actually really interesting. It would explain something that I've been wondering about for years, that being how the top of the 'skirt' (or fauld) didn't get in the way when riding a horse, especially with some examples having these faulds fairly long. The simple answer is that that skirt simply started higher up than I thought before. Thank you for another awesome video!
+MRKapcer13 also the skirt is semi rigid and the segments are mostly riveted at the top to common leather straps so they fold together over another to little more then the length of one segment
first off, very informative, but it made me subtly anxious my patterns might end in the wrong area. But either through luck or stupidity I'm happy to say its the right area.
Fantastic work!
Very nice and informative video, but I already knew this. No matter, your videos are awesome.
Great video! I think the problem is we are used to seeing Modern body armor and more greek and roman type armors which actually tend to be more of that shape. But I think that is more based upon the fact that all of these are infantry armors.
+valcan321 Well, that's just the thing. Modern body armor, like ESAPI plates and other similar protection are also very short and designed only to protect the vitals like their medieval counterparts.
I love that intro
Barbarella I don't know there name of it but I'd love to know what it is.
+Vesrox From what I can tell it is "Puisque ma dolour" by Dominique Vellard, Nourreddine Tahiri, and Aruna Sairam.
+Vesrox I second this. That face is gold worth XD
Malagar thank you
+Barbarella It's a modern recording of the 14th century composer Guillaume de Machaut's original medieval music. Malagar's information is correct with regards to the specific performance you hear in this video.
Great video, always informative. Are there any makers that produce for the mass market that you would recommend? +Knyght Errant
really good detailed video! very helpful for figuring out how to draw armor as well
i always see the too-long breastplate in video games and ofc it always looks a bit funny, cause to make it still move with the character, they just.. make the metal stretchy/bendy lmao
and ofc trying to make a costume/cosplay with that too-long breastplate design is a mess; even if its flexible foam its still gonna be super uncomfortable
Wonderful video as always, Ian.
I know this is mostly about proportions, but will you eventually mention about modern reproduction armor, that they are usually made from factory bought sheets of metal instead of being forged like the historical examples? Which means that modern reproduction armors maintain a consistent thickness all around (frontal plate, back plate, etc...) while historical armors, since they are forged, have varying thickness, even within the same piece of plate(like the breastplate, more thickness on the front, less on the sides, depending on type)?
Because even if a reproduction armors sticks to correct proportions, due to the aforementioned inconsistency caused by consistent thickness, a repro armor can have a different performance and weight distribution compared to the real historical piece.
Great point man. Also, some breast plates all the way upto the mid 16th century could even measure 1/32 of an inch different in thickness from the left side to right in the same mirrored area! This being due to rolling mills only becoming wide spread in the 16th century and all sheet metal before was formed with great water powered trip-hammeres and being guided by human hand, so the plate often varried greatly in thickness before even reaching the smiths hammer.
+dermeistervonhoeth2 I don't see this as an issue. The thickness usually does not vary extremely and the weight difference between 2mm and 1.5mm is not significant in comparison the weights of different styles of armor, even the same style but different makers or qualities. Also some of the varying thicknesses of historical armors are likely the smiths inability to keep a consistent thickness rather then intentional reinforcement.
+dermeistervonhoeth2 Yes, this is true for the most part. Although when modern armorers hot-work uniform sheets of steel they can forge them out into differential thicknesses, so it's not always the case the the final product is still the same as the starting thickness. I do intend to cover this in future videos. It's one of those areas where we as modern-wearers of armor just kind of have to accept the compromise that our armor won't be made from forged out blooms of steel :)
Excellent video, nothing new for me sadly but it's great to see this explained in video format. I did notice some reproductions of English armor (as opposed to say Milanese) is flatter than most. I believe Graham Turner (The artist who does a lot of work for Osprey) has one of those reproduction sets with a rather flat breast plate.
PS, How high is the roman Segtmentata supposed to end? I believe it covers less than the mail the soldiers wore but how much less?
interestingly enough this is also how almost all later (early 16th to mid 17th century) doublets fit. They end at the natural waist. They're generally thick and very form fitting, so if they were longer it'd be very hard to bend and move around.
The reason why many reproduction armors are made flatter than the originals is because modern people think "That makes me look fat." and they demand pieces that accentuate a broad, muscular chest. If you don't really know what you are looking at you would think that everyone in the middle ages and renaissance where pot bellied because the men are almost all depicted wearing either proper plate armor or aketons.
for the very few exceptions of medieval movies that are historical accurate - at least regarding costumes and armor - i recommend you to check hussite trilogy: "Jan Hus" (1954), "Jan Zizka" (1955) and "Proti vsem" (1956)
Another spectacular job Ian!
The only thing I might disagree with is my interpretation of what you said about the armour not following the chest. It should mimic the chest on the upper three inches or so (where the stop rib is located) to help dissipate force over a larger area that the collar bones. If you take a hit with the breastplate only touching the collarbones, they'll break. In most later period sets, you'll see the breastplate stop short of these bones, and gorget, or pauldrons cover them (especially in jousting armours where downward forces hitting the shoulders would be very uncommon). All this is me probably taking your words too literal, or misinterpreting your intent, as you're spot on about the functionality, and iconography.
The BP being too long is one thing I learned doing my first. ;) Good job. Keep it up.
Another thing that I see along with this, is the difference in width of gorgets (and other neck protection) for jousting and foot combat armors. From what I've seen, foot combat uses a narrower protection, which allows the arms to be raised more easily. Jousting armours tend to be wider and deeper, as shoulder rotation and elbow angle move the lance vertically. Many of the reenactment armours are too wide. You can also talk about fans on cops and their functions.
+Michael Ramey You're absolutely right. I didn't mean to imply that it should never follow the chest, I just meant it shouldn't trace the line of the chest all the way down the length of the breastplate. That's what I think many of the guys who make flat BPs are assuming should be done. It seems like they feel it should follow the torso closely. It should flatten out toward the very top like you describe. Looking back at the video I see how that probably wasn't clear in what I was saying :)
Thank you also for the suggestions, I've got them on the master 'idea list' :)
why dont modern ballistic armour designs take medieval armorer theory into perspective?
Do you have a video on the overall durability of plate armor? I've seen a bunch of tests and almost every one shows different results. Some show a sword dents the armor severely, others show a mace barely dents it at all. How easy is it to dent, and how bad is it if it does dent?
I am also curious on injuries sustained by the wearer by blunt trauma. I know that swords don't work but maces do, etc, but I'd like to know more. Which strikes with which weapons are incapacitating or lethal? Which can you walk away from? Etc.
This was super helpful! Thanks!
Another excellent video, now if we can get the Hollywood and "gimmick garrison" armorers to see this! I feel bad for anyone who ends up in any improperly made piece of armor; I've had the displeasure of trying on a few different sets of costume/performance armor and they were just about the most uncomfortable things I've ever worn. They don't allow for really any motion beyond simply standing around and looking shiny. I have a question regarding the stereotypical "knight in shining armor" though; would their armor really have been as shiny as we seem to think it was? I've heard that many squires would polish their knight's armor with sand and urine but I am neither sure of that claim's accuracy nor of how effective that mixture would be for polishing steel. By the way, I loved the intro and the music!
+Daniel Thompson The level of polish on armor was considered a status thing, because it was ridiculously expensive to finish armor to that level. Some purchase records indicate the finishing of high end armor was more expensive than it's actual production, so some armors were probably pretty shiny! They could also be very decorated. Some renaissance armors are almost entirely fire gilded (they use a solution of boiling mercury and gold to adhere gold to the surface of the steel). The result is a thick (much thicker than modern electrolytic gold plating) layer of gold that would make the wearer look pretty radiant in the sun :)
But yes, a lot of poorly produced and badly shaped armor contributes to people's misconception that armor was clunky and cumbersome.
I had a suspicion that a finely polished suit would have been rather expensive, although I had no idea they used boiling mercury to gold plate their armor and I have to say that's rather intense! It's sad that traditional armor is so poorly misrepresented in today's world, I've seen guys do somersaults and cartwheels in full suits so I know they can't be too bad in the mobility department. I've never had the opportunity to wear an authentic reproduction of armor, only the fake junk they make for those who don't know armor very well. I suppose that makes me quite the peasant haha
Have you thought of doing some videos on different qualities of available armor? Like budget armor, medium quality, and then high end/ custom armor? That would be cool for people looking together to put together their own kits!
Yes, absolutely. One point I will also need to make in that future video is that what we think of as 'low quality' armor in the modern reproduction world is in no way representative of what 'low quality' armor would have been historically.
Knyght Errant Awesome man, I'll be looking forward to it! I've been wanting to put together my own suit, especially after watching your channel. Great point on the lower quality historical armor.
+Knyght Errant
Great video as usual! Are you going to talk about the protection a typical plate armour provided? Maybe some armour tests?
Also, what always bothered me is that many medieval/renaissance armours leave the groin area uncovered, or covered with chainmail only, which seems like a major drawback since you can be struck there from the front, unlike, say, armpits area, which is often poorly covered as well. I suppose you're going to cover that topic as well?
+Tork789 think of a jock strap. now think of something similar made out of metal. i won't walk around with something like this, cause it would hurt. and don't even think of riding a horse... ouch.
But i'm also very interested in some points about penetrating armor and how to deal with a man in full plate armor.
+Tork789 Tipically the groin could be protected by a tonlet (think an armoured skirt) depending on style form changes as most designed for mounted use are shorter and leave a gap to allow riding, with armour used only on foot you see much longer tonlets ending mid thigh and are fully enclosed.
Edit: Addtionally you do also see armour with a cod piece. Again this is a issue of function and mobility over protection the groin needs a wide range of motion and needs to allow mounted use in a fashion be it a removable section of the full suit or a compromise.
+Tork789 Google: "codpiece"
Actually, don't.
c2.staticflickr.com/2/1236/526906101_ec1242f71e.jpg
+Tyrannosaurus RexI knew one of these codpieces would be brought up. As far as i know that is more about decoration and less about real protection. If you are going to argue about this you first have to make a video you riding a horse with one of these things. ;)
There was a lot of infantry around and those codpieces were actually quite easy to "unplug" from the rest of your armour.
I love your videos!
Fantastic video, and very informative as I strive to make my own suit of transitional plate.
I make foam armor for renfest i try to keep accurate to real armor as much as posible relized this about my chest plate after my first build lol that was a rough day at renfest and thats with foam cant imangine real plate armor
Damn! I love this stuff. Keep it up.
So do you reckon the lack of curvature (and I suppose the problems of length) might come from muscled cuirass sculpture? In Greek and Roman sculpture and artwork depicting cuirasses, they're always following the form of the body itself (curvature wise) and sometimes extend beyond the natural waist.
+WolfBane192 I believe those are meant to be either ceremonial or made out of leather. Don't quote me on that though
+koffieslikkersenior Yeah, I understand that. I just mean whether that's where modern reproductions get their ideas about shape and proportions from. And I was talking strictly about the statuary/artwork, rather than existing pieces of actual armour (and some do exist made out of bronze and iron, including some that stop at the natural waist).
WolfBane192 Ah I had completely misunderstood you then :) I think it's got to do with todays fashion. If you a ninetees movie you cringe because of the high pants, right?
+WolfBane192 fyi, cuirasses are kind of flared at the hip from the waist so there's nothing like, sitting on the hip. but i agree it's probably just modern fashion interfering. i find those jeans from the 90s very flattering on women though and i'm glad they're coming back into fashion :p
Torc Handsomeson They are receding, sadly. We've had another good 4 years of women's fashion. Now oversised wool coats and 7/8th jeans are in... :/
I have a question, where can i find an accurate reproduction of funcional breastplate and armor in general ? For example where did you buy your armor?
I don't mean to nitpick, I really enjoy your highly educational videos, but I was asking myself what the "Sherberg" you keep mentioning is for so long... I just wanted to mention that Churburg would be pronounced more along the lines of Choor-boorg (don't know how to approximate the proper 'ch' sound though)
Thank you for all to tall us about that, boss. And do you know which armor store sell high quality armor? I'd wish to buy a nice armor for play real fighting game.
I personally think, that at least part of the reason why breastplates are almost universally depicted as too flat and too low and often without plackard in movies, art, roleplaying- and videogames has to do with a desire to make armour look more "masculine" in a way that it sometimes even emulates the muscled cuirass of antiquity. The slim waist, curved chest and broad hips of historical plate armour simply don't fit our modern image of machismo and warrior culture. In reality of course the late medieval society had quite a different view of what was "masculine" - this was a time where men were encouraged to show off their long, slender legs and tight waist and where pink was thought to be a masculine color.
The most ridiculous result is, that now that it's become popular to depict female warriors in a medieval setting in games and movies, it has suddenly become "necessary" to create feminine versions of the overly masculine armours, which leave preposterous amounts of bare skin and even have breastplates with fully formed breasts!
In reality a female body would fit just as well in an actual medieval armour as a male would.
+Finkeren Agreed. I know plenty of women who fight in very historically accurate harness, and they wear the same breastplates as the guys. They fit and work just fine. Historical depictions of women in armor almost universally show them in the same armor the men wore.
+Knyght Errant Even funnier, if we take medieval artwork at it's word. Medieval women weren't even busty enough to warrant boob plates or boob space curvature, their breasts would fill the void made by the compound curve quite easily.
+Finkeren Are you feminist? I can smell them from miles.
Finkeren Armor have nothing to do with "machismo", nor with "feminismo". Put this shit elsewhere.
What about ancient muscle cuirass used by greeks and romans ?
They Couldn't bend their torso ?
So in summary: A breastplate is a second set of ribs.
+Michael Eversberg II Yes, a much stronger set of ribs. It's designed to protect your vitals, just like you're rib cage. A breastplate is not there to protect your gut / abdomen like a lot of bad reproductions try to do. That's what the mail and fauld is there for. If you look at modern ceramic and steel rifle plates, the coverage is not all that dissimilar.
Knyght Errant Indeed.
Would you consider the natural waist the ideal location for the belt/Hauberk weight distribution.
+Ryan Patterson Inevitably half the weight of hauberk is going to end up on your shoulders, but if using a belt to blouse it a bit, yes, the natural waist is definitely where you want to strap it down. If you're wearing a breastplate, no separate belt is required as the breastplate strap will provide the same function for the underlying hauberk.
Cool new intro!
pardon the direct question but, you got no issues getting hands on all this armor? or would patreon be a thing helping You showing even more stuff on this channel?
+Chris Notyourbusines I've thought about the patreon thing, I'm just not sure I'm comfortable asking my viewers for money just yet. But if I'm being honest, it does cost a lot of time and money to not only make the videos, but as I run out of armor locally to show off, I'm hoping to borrow more pieces from friends / armorers (or have things made) and that will get expensive fast.
I know I'm late, and probably somebody else already said it, but I'm going to say it anyway.
We see the same development in modern armor as well.
Most modern plate carriers follow the same princable. We have a breastplate (so to speak) which covers the ribcage, and then often we see some sort of webbing or battlebelt which sits below that.
We have bigger amor as well (often however more seen with police rather then military forces). But even those have a "cut" or a flexible part which starts just below the navel.
This differantiation is often due to the intended work. With military personal we push mobility in contrast to protection (best protection is not to be hit) and with police forces - and due to their normal encounters - they are given bigger plates because their situations often are more static hence we push the trinagle of mobility firepower and protection more towards protection.
However even with the police we see a shift when it comes to the more specialised forces.
In Germany for example we see the heavy vest are majorly given out to patrol officers (those then who would create a parameter around a situation or guard a place where mobility is not as needed) and our SEK (swat) switched to breastplates and battlebelts due to their often very flexible situation.
So yea even with modern personal armor we see the plates following the same rule - well not the curve, because modern plates want to "catch" the projectile not devlect it.
Hi,
Would you know of any producers of historical accurate armor? I'm in need of a good breastplate -or coat of plates- but I simply cannot find any site selling armor that doesn't have the problems stated in this video! I say producers as in companies as I would suspect they are less expensive. If not, then I suppose I'll give ol Wasson a call.
Cheers.
Thank you for allowing time to read your text in the video.
Can you please tell me where you buy your arming garments
+Nosy Villager I made all of my arming garments. The pattern I used for my arming cote specifically is available commercially here (www.lulu.com/shop/tasha-kelly/the-pourpoint-of-charles-de-blois/paperback/product-22344252.html)
I have a question. Comparing surviving full plate armour, specially gothic and maximilian, with functional reproductions i feel that the originals tend to have thiner waists. Do you think that some armours compressed the wearer's waist like a corse?
I think a lot of modern reproductions oversize the waist because they don't understand or are afraid to commit to the fact that the waist needs to be very tight for weight-bearing purposes. I also think a lot of modern wearers are probably a little bigger around the waist than people who trained to fight in armor as a profession :)
Sounds interesting, but I wonder about greek plate cuirasses. Theyre usually pictured like they'd go from the collarbones/neck, all the way down to the hip, but that would cause the mentioned problems. Did the Greek sacrifice mobility and comfort for one piece of longer armour or is it just wrongly shown? They also were flatter from what Ive seen (these typical muscle shaped ones).
Cheers!
+Acetylsalicylsaeure2 I have no reason to doubt the classical artwork in the shape and form of ancient breastplates, so I suspect that the Ancient Greek stuff was as it appears. I don't know enough about the period to say for sure. Either way, I can definitely assume there was some loss of mobility if that is indeed how they were. Perhaps tight formation tactics permitted a loss of mobility through the torso?
+Knyght Errant
Well Maybe the curvature was not necessary since the blows didnt need to be deflected. Though to me it sounds very painful to get even a bronze spear head thrusted against my chest area. Ive found a picture of an archeological find, it looks to me as the body armour would pass the natural waistline a bit.
Polybios described the greek phalanx as very tight, maybe the big shields and spears allowed the movement restriction. Romans used more flexible armour, and Polybios describes their formation also as more lose compared to the greek. So maybe you cannot dodge or move much in the formation anyway, and thus prefer more protection.
www.thefakebusters.com/greek%20bronze%20helmets/ancient%20Greek%20hoplite%20bronze%20helmets%204.htm
Two more things before the novel has an end; Would you say that in a single combat or lose formation, such armours wouldnt be used as much? As Im trying to create a fantasy world based on antiquity, I want the arms and armour fitting in naturally, meaning that the armour and arms fulfill the purposes required in this fantasy world. A bunch of adventurers rarely fight in formation and thus wouldnt choose armour designed for such.
Secondly, as youve introduced many helmet types, Id enjoy a video featuring either the greek helmets or the barbutes ;)
Cheers!
Is the difference between a cuirass and a breastplate the addition of the lower section that protects the pelvis and lower stomach? And, does that lower part have a name?
+Connorcj1 A cuirass is usually defined as a breastplate and backplate together. The lower part isn't necessarily required, but it's considered part of the cuirass. The lower 'skirt' is called a fauld. If there are additional plates hanging off the lowest edge of the skirt over the top of the thighs, those are called 'tassets.'
that Epic Armoury breast plate is what i have and am trying to get rid of it for several reasons main reason i feel like a turtle in it and two its not historical or accurate in anyway or functional. i went to a ren fair with that kit on and man did it suck i had to get out of it just 2 hours of wearing the damn thing. word of advice never buy from Epic armoury unless you are just buying the clothing from them! the armour is in my room and is taking up space and is a nightmare to look at
Question, if someone should know. Would earlier breast plates of this era negatively effect the ability to rest your arms straight downward, due to the sort of pointed outer edge beneath the armpit?
+Jan Lykourgos To answer the question really quick. Yes, but you can comfortably rest your hands on your hips or cross your arms so it is not an issue. Side note I make my own armor and when designing my breast plate I had similar thoughts. to get that shape either the waist was extremely tight or the breastplate flared out at the armpits, more likely both. I elected to have a flatter profile and see no problems.
Port Kapul Awesome. Thank you. (:
+Jan Lykourgos They shouldn't bow out so far that you can't put your arms down reasonably, but it will inevitably restrict some motion. The other part is that cut in on the chest. A lot of bad reproductions don't cut in on the chest enough, which prevents you from getting your arm across your chest. That's more of a problem for someone trying to fight than having to put your arms straight down by your side.
Sadly for me, I'm what some know as 'short waisted' - my Illiac crest and my short ribs have barely an inch of clearance between them. Rather than the long, lean form of the ectomorph, I have the square, blocky form of a mesomorph - handy if you're a boxer or an armourer, but less so if you're, say, a diver or a fashion model. My question is this: How do I accommodate this physicality with a breastplate? I have a limited range of motion side to side, but plenty fore and aft. Should I be doing more stretching? (My torso, not the steel.) Have you seen any accommodation for short waists in armour?
+Gavin Danker Check out this clip. This is from the documentary Richard III: The New Evidence, where they experiment with armor on a Richard III body-double who has the same type of scoliosis that Richard had. The section I've linked to discusses the fact that he has no waist. He has less than 1'' between the ribs and ilium. Per ends up solving the problem by building the cuirass to brace against his back. I wonder if you could explore a similar construction, but Per is the guy to talk to (ruclips.net/video/fDHDvnnK4nI/видео.htmlm45s).
Were do coat of plates and brigandines end? There are made of multiple plates so, would they be further down or in the same spot?
+Philip Dyer Earlier coats of plates are much less shaped than their later counterparts. As they became more developed in the mid 14th century they began to get more shapely, and started exhibiting the same properties I show on solid breastplates in this video. Eventually, by the late 14th century a lot of coats of plates actually have solid breastplates in the front that are just as curved and cut in at the waist as their uncovered equivalents. 15th century Brigandine cuirasses also tend to be very curved in overall silhouette with the same cut at the waist.
^Thanks. Also, if there any other technicalprotection to having a flat to the chest breastplate( but still of the properlength) that lack of deflective surface?
Thank you 🙏
Is there any other techinical problem to a flatish breastplate of proper besides lacy of glancing surfaces?
+Philip Dyer The glancing surfaces issue is a pretty big one. Taking a poleaxe or lance shot to the chest with a properly curved breastplate is quite the 'oomph' even when it does glide off. With a flat breastplate, if that weapon is able to get a nice flat surface to bite into, the entire force of that blow is going to go into you. If the breastplate is flat enough that it's in direct contact with your chest, we're talking injury or worse.
Yeah, I know about that and that is why breastplates were curved historically. I am just asking because I'm late 13th century fighter in the SCAand wanted to created armor that can fit seamlessly under a surcoat. I use huge shield in combat, so I'm not as worried about chest hit as say someone using a spear, greatsword, or poleaxe. That is why I asked technical issues besides lack of glancing surface.
^Nevermind, I could always go with constructing scale, lammelar and four mirrors armor than trying to make something not mea
nt to be flat a flat shape.
For the late 13th century, you could use an early coat of plates and not have to hide it and still be appropriate for the time. If you just want to go with hidden armor though, a flatter breastplate could work for rattan combat, I just wouldn't claim it to be historical, but rather a piece of hidden armor for SCA use only.
Regarding the length of the breastplate, what do you think about greek muscular breastplate? Many depictions and reproductions I've seen are much longer than you suggest as the perfectly lenght.
Most of the information in this video is specific to late medieval European breastplates. A lot of ancient world armor differs in important ways. Even contemporary armors in places like Japan are significantly different until later periods when the Japanese start using European pattern breastplates. Even in Europe, as time passed, you start to see changes in the waistline like 'peascod' style breastplates that project outward and down on the centerline but still retain a tight waist at the sides where the load is primarily borne.
@@KnyghtErrant Why weren't they concerned with the bending down problem though?
I am guessing that either examples of long cuirasses I've seen are non-practical (meant for generals or for show or depictions of what contemporary artist thought ancient warriors used) or its not as big of a problem due to fighting style (fighting in formations).
I know it's not your period of expertise but those long cuirasses seem to go against your argument of practicality and confused me.
So is a cuirass a breastplate with an attached skirt then? I always used the words interchangeably.
+Robert R The cuirass is defined as a breastplate in combination with a backplate. The skirt (fauld) is not a requirement for the cuirass, but it usually accompanies it. A breastplate with a fauld that has no backplate (like mine) is not a cuirass.
Knyght Errant Right I see. Presumably the backplate has to be metal as well. A breastplate with a leather back wouldn't be a cuirass would it?
I'm not sure that such a thing existed :)
Knyght Errant oh ok, nvm :)
The belly button is below the waist. Halfway between the top of your shoulder and the top of the hips (the so-called jeans waist) is where the waist-area begins. (ending at the hips) The waist _proper,_ is halfway between that, and the hips (i.e. at the centre of the area) …and somewhere halfway between the waist and the hips, is where you find the navel. The exact position can vary a bit, but never as high, as to be *_at_* the waist. (within the wider area, sure, but *_below_* the waist _proper)_
The bones are the best reference in my opinion, the navel varies too much from person to person. I should have been more clear about that.
@@KnyghtErrant The navel does vary, yes, but as I said: it's never as high as to be at the waist, AFAIK.
I have found that the waist area to be between the top of the hips (the top of the hip/pelvic bone) and the bottom end of the sternum, and the waist proper, to be where the outer edge of the ribcage ends, which is also halfway between the hips and the sternum, which is to say at the middle/centre of the waist area.
The navel being, roughly (as you say, and I said, it does rather vary), between the hips and the waist proper. Never as low as to be at the top of the hip, or as high as to be at the waist.
…and, also, about a quarter of the way up, from the bottom end of the sternum to the top of the shoulder, you have the bottom border of the breast. (it would seem that halfway up, again from the sternum to the shoulders, are the nipples …though I haven't looked into that, as much, so I'm not as sure about that. It might well vary a bit)
All of these details of anatomy, are things that I've looked up/into, due to what you said here, BTW, so this knowledge I am correcting you with, is something I kinda ultimately got from you, and owe you for.
I'd also like to say that I've found this knowledge quite good and interesting.
Good to know, for not just armour (not just terms of making, but also drawing, buying, and wearing. Not that I really make or draw, or afford to buy, as yet…), but also clothing, and generally knowing about the human body. (both generally, and about my own …and, again, useful for drawing, though it doesn't matter much for me, as I'm utterly useless at it)
@@ZarlanTheGreen I think my point is more that the location of the navel is ultimately irrelevant as is where we define the natural waist to be. The bones don't lie, and the breastplate needs to terminate in the fleshy area below the floating ribs and above the iliac crest so that during movement it is self-supportive through compression and does not rub bone. What we name this location is useful for communication but is not nearly as important as understanding the concept. If we use the individual's own anatomy to be the guide with those parameters in mind, you'll never go wrong. An armorer should be feeling for this location on their client.
@@KnyghtErrant True.
I definitely see why medieval armor with me that way. But the challenge from the Modern perspective now that we see both sides of that equation, can’t we try to find a new solution that caters to both needs? Modern people want a full body breast plate, but medieval people wanedt shorter ones. Well what about making a breast plate with a V-neck and then covering it with a gorget that will not slide up while the rest of the cuirass does? That would allow a full shoulders to belt armor plate, and the open spot would be covered with a gorget or bevor. Or, create a full shoulders to belt just play that is segmented so that the whole thing a sliding in perhaps seven joints, allowing for that extra space to be taken up by the articulation. That way it would not shock you.
funny thing they are set up almost like modern plate carriers.
that was the observation I was trying to make, not sure why the hostility though unless i am reading the tone of your comment wrong.
+2Sucubi1Chalice Yes, they very much parallel each other. These things (both plate carriers and medieval breastplates) are designed to protect your vital organs. They're basically reinforcing your rib cage. They're not protecting your gut as some poor armor-makers would have us believe. :)
This is a mistake I see in every fantasy video game. In Dragon Age (all of them), people's breastplates are very flat, and run all the way down to their hips...
+Discitus Witcher 3 seems to do a good job with it! :D
+MRKapcer13 Dark Souls as well with the low fantasy armor. (the high fantasy armor is obviously not practical)
+MRKapcer13 Yeah, Witcher 3 did pretty damn well for a video game when it comes to armor in general. There's definitely some 'fantasy' stuff, but overall the armor is way better than pretty much every other AAA RPG title out there with the exception of something like Kingdom Come: Deliverance, but that's intentional :)
Knyght I have a personal question, where can I find that globose breastplate. I don't mean to bother however i'm going into medieval fightclub and I'm looking for one with a fauld.
+gas mask chaplin I believe his breastplate is made by Jeff Wasson, but I'm not sure Wasson is taking orders right now
Seasons Thanks for the help, I will check in and see when orders are available. And again Thanks.
+gas mask chaplin Watson is really expensive tho, I believe most American steel fighters buy from Icefalcon and Andrey Galevskiy. ask the local club you're joining
Seasons Thanks man. Really helped.
Another great video. Thank you for this valuable insight into breastplate proportions. :-)
I hope that you'll do a video on Brigandine soon.
that intro was smooth, like Michael Jackson
With respect, I disagree with the point you make at 6:27. The natural waist is actually the worst place to strap weight to, since the only structure to support is will be the spine and the lower back and abdomen muscles. The best place to strap weight is the pelvis, thus most of the weight will be on your legs. I have experimented with this on numerous military activities were I had to carry heavy loads on my back for long distances on foot.
+Daniel barak I'm not trying to be a contrarian for the sake of it but hear me out. I was military for 10 years, although I was a pilot, so if I was wearing a pack it meant something was a very wrong or I was doing some sort of training. That also meant that I didn't get gear fit properly to me when I did need it. The reason my back always hurt when carrying those backs (SERE comes to mind) was because they didn't fit properly. When I go on a hike in my personal life, I sometimes wind up carrying my daughter in a pack or a ton of gear. If I strap the back around my hips it hurts like hell after a couple hours. If I strap it like it's designed, tightly around the waist, I can wear it indefinitely *IF* and that's a big IF, I remember to keep my core tight. The natural waist will last you a lot longer than the pelvis if you keep good core stability. As soon as you let that go, you're right, lower-back problems. Your abs and spinal erectors are designed to protect your lumbar spine.
Look at a power-lifting belt. You'll see that competitive lifters wear the belt on their natural waist (not low like gym-bros do). Why? Because it gives them a way to brace their core against incredible loads. Even marching bands use this principle. Heavy drum harnesses are designed to be supported against the abdomen and waist, not the hips. A similar principle is at work with armor. Armor is considerably lighter, but I can attest from personal experience that a properly fitted breastplate (in line with what was done historically) is a lot more comfortable for long periods of time than a long breastplate supported by your hips.
I see your point on the power lifting belts. Totally agree. These guys need to keep their core tight, otherwise they'll just rupture a spinal disk. I am not arguing that what you are saying about armor is not correct either. The harness is designed to be strapped so as to minimize movement limitations and this is the best way. Knights were often fit individuals so carrying the weight on their shoulders was not so much of a problem if it was distributed correctly. Also there is no better way... I was a combat medic in the IDF in an infantry battalion for roughly 8 years and had to carry about 40kg of equipment on 20-40 km marches on a weekly basis when in combat or on exercises, and there was no way around it: the legs are way stronger than your core, and when your pack is resting on your hips you will feel more comfortable during a long March. At least that was what me and my comrades found. If you left the weight on your shoulders, your arms would go numb in no time.
Actually when I think about it, we are not so far off, since if your packs waist straps are thick and padded, tightening them on your natural waist would result with their bottom resting on your hips.
I think we are actually agreeing and not realizing it. I'm in no way saying that the armor should rest on your shoulders at all. The breastplate is designed to be strapped tightly at the waist. The straps that go over the shoulder are basically just preventing it from falling off. Their not really weight-bearing. All the weight bearing is happening at the waist. So the weight of the armor is sitting on your waist and pushing down (and being powered by your legs) not hanging off your shoulders. Even fit individuals will feel less fatigue with weight on the waist, natural or hips (and thus transferred to the legs) and not hanging off their shoulders.
I'm with you 100% that avoiding weight on the shoulders is desirable. That does kill your back in short order. The way the weight of medieval armor is distributed puts the vast majority of the weight on the waist and hips. The only weight that actually sits on the shoulder is your arm harness and indirectly, your helmet. Even the mail shirt is partly supported at the waist because of the way the breastplate strap pins it in place.
Check out my 'historical leg harness supension' video and you can see even the upper body garments were designed in a way to hold up the entire leg harness without putting any strain on the shoulders. It's all on the hips / waist because it's tight and girdling through your hips / waist, but it's got more room through the chest and shoulders so it doesn't transfer tension there.
+Knyght Errant yep, we agree. I was actually not aware of the point were the breast plate leans against the waist. thanks.
keep making these videos, there is not much info out there and you present it both clearly and to the point. I very much enjoy them. cheers :).
+Knyght Errant and also, thanks!
interestingly when you look at modern military body armor, you see the same length, but they are not curved.
+Boris Kapchits ESAPI plates are actually curved a little bit. Not to the same degree as a medieval breastplate, but they're not flat either. I think in modern armor it's more to make it fit the body better since glancing surfaces aren't nearly as important to a rifle round. But yes, just like medieval breastplates, modern rifle plates are there to protect your vitals and basically reinforce your rib cage, not the gut/abdomen like a lot of bad modern reproductions try to do.
+Knyght Errant yes, your are wright of course, I didn't thought that the swords and lances should glance on this breastplate, unlike bullets and shrapnel.
0:13 "Try me, bitch"
This is all speculation, but I think this might be partially the fault of the Japanese breastplate, or Dou. Contemporary depictions in art show the Dou terminating below the navel and retaining a semi-rigid shape. If I had to guess how mobility was maintained I think the neck might have been cut lower, as Japanese armor is also known to incorporate a lamellar neck guard or shikoro which could cover the upper chest.
This could have crossed over into the public image of breastplate from the popularity of kendo.
+Zachary Sohn I always saw Japanese armour as conforming to the same basic structure as European armour, even when one is lamellar and the other is brigandine or plate. The dou ends at the natural waist and the lower torso and groin are protected by kusazari. Kusazari are distinguished from the European fould by virtue of being divided into vertically hanging tassets rather than horizontal bands, but otherwise follow the same principles. My experience with kendo armour largely confirms this. Call it convergent evolution if you like.
Gee, I sure LOVE Razer and all of their QUALITY PRODUCTS that are cheap and affordable!
Very interesting, thank you. So the big controversial question is: Which modern reproduction armourers are doing it right?
+lancer D I'll leave the consumer to answer that for themselves. I'm just trying to arm people with the knowledge to choose wisely :)
+lancer D If you find any, please let us know, as the buying of armour is quite expensive, I don't want to "waste" that amount of money :)
+hacheurdepoulet teach a man to fish....
... and he'll make a brand new suit of armour ?
Do all medieval breastplates have their "peak" toward the bottom like the ones you've shown?
+Noah Weisbrod This appears to be the most common trend, yes, though there are examples of breastplates which have a peak more or less at the centre of the chest. Also at the extremes of history of plate armour, 13th century with coats of plates and 16th and 17th centuries with chestplates like those that were used by the Polish Winged Hussars there seems to be a tendency for flatter chestplates. In 13th and early 14th century that's down to the way the coat of plates was worn, literally kind of like a coat, and by late time of full harnesses it was mostly due to the fact that chestplates were heavily articulated.
cool video
Interesting video. Would you say this is the correct breastplate proportion?
i.imgur.com/1OJhGND.jpg?1
The other thing I've noticed about armor in certain media is that bucket helmets are smaller than I would think due to them being essentially two helmets. I hope that makes some sense.
+Wille It looks like it's supposed to be a copy of Churburg #13, but I would say it's a bit too long (but a lot better than most games). The real one is pretty short. If you look at the side view at 10:48 you'll see that the height of the plates that sit under the arm a proportionally shorter than in the image you linked (Total War?). It should be protecting the vitals in the rib cage, not the gut/abdomen.
Even the more later breastplates and cuirasses of the Pontifical Swiss guards end and the natural waist.
So it should end at or just above the navel or belly button, correct?
I know this is an old vid, but it just popped up for me today, when I am on day 2 of trying to make a breastplate (I was not necessary trying to keep it "historical" just as close as I could get, but how timely. Also... It is harder than it looks lol!
It needs to terminate below the short ribs, and above the iliac crest of the pelvis. It should squeeze a little at the sides of the body in that region where there is no bone. Don't be afraid to compress yourself a little at the sides, this is how the breastplate supports its weight. This is usually in line with the belly button on most people, but not always.
@@KnyghtErrant Thank you! I made the mistake you mention with inexpensive repros and had to cut the bottom off before I saw your vid. By chance, the timing was perfect. And it now sits as specified!
(but it will never look pretty even when I'm done rolling the edges - first try.)
Great video, I'm doing research for a novel I'm writing and seeing the explanation behind the design of the armour is fantastic. It helps figure out the reasoning behind the design so I can apply it to other types of armour. One nagging question remains though: Would there be any major differences between male and female breastplates? I know women weren't typically soldiers but my main character is, so I've been wondering what major differences, if any, there would be to accommodate her bust and how bust size would affect the changes needed to the breastplate. I highly doubt it's like in fantasy where the breasts are basically molded into steel and it just looks like an erotic piece of metal, but I can't figure out how different it'd have to be.
Hi Jeff, I'm glad you're finding this stuff useful! As far as historical female armor, there are lots of depictions from iconography and other artwork showing women depicted in full armor. Unless the armor is highly stylized (basically the Medieval version of 'fantasy') the armors tend not to be appreciably different from male armors. There are some exceptions, but they tend to be just that, exceptions. Here's a library of women depicted in armor to help you get some references (www.pinterest.com/macs_shop/women-in-armor/)
Thanks a lot! It looks like some of them have a steeper curve to accommodate the bust though I'm guessing it might not be necessary when sufficient padding is involved. I'll keep watching your videos and posting questions as I find them! My character will be a walking breathing tank!
I do have a question already though, From what I've seen in other channels' videos so far, it seems that swords and spears are mostly useless against full place, they can't cut or pierce through it, so they'd have to aim between plates. I've seen from several armours that those sections are often protected with mail to avoid that, would it be practical to instead of having small parts of mail in those sections attached to each portion to instead wear a full mail armour underneath?
My character is a soldier first, a lord second and a woman third as she says herself, and the idea here is to be able to put it all on quicker and on her own without needing half a dozen people attaching every piece together. I know it wouldn't be nearly as heavy as fantasy likes to think though compared to just the plate or just the mail it'd probably be a significant addition.
In addition: Since the helmet would cause sounds and sights to be impaired it'd probably become an impediment to a soldier after formation broke and rather than a shield wall to shield wall battle they'd be split up in small groups sprinkled across the battle field, I know removing the helm is a rather ludicrous thing however would it be possible for someone to carry a buckler on their hip or something like that to use when they lift their visor so as to protect their now exposed face?
Final question for now: I know that soft soled shoes such as leather are great for walking on stone roads such as in cities but that steel soled boots would basically slip everywhere without grip, similarly steel soles would be great on dirt and grass since they'd easy sink in, however leather would be so slippery as to lead a warrior to look like a jester, do you know if there were historically any sort of detachable soles? I'm thinking of something of a fairly thick layer of leather that'd be strapped around the foot with a few straps so as to allow a smoother grip on stone when entering a town and that could be removed quickly when leaving the stone and entering dirt land. So soldiers wouldn't be all slip-and-slidey for no reason, that'd probably be fairly light and could easily be strapped to the belt. Here I'm not talking about mid-battle mind you, more along the lines of for convenience whilst travelling or when in a parade.
Thanks for the previous answer, I hope I haven't asked so much I'll be sent a bill ''^.^
There is plenty of evidence for wearing a full mail shirt under plate armor, so that is definitely an option. It's not necessary in a lot of cases though. Mail patches can be sewn directly to an arming doublet, and mail sleeves and a skirt can be put on very easily, so the choice is yours.
There are components of armor that are all but impossible to put on by oneself though. For example, it would be impossible for me to point my shoulders to the mail without help, or buckle the breastplate since I can't reach the middle of my back and make it tight enough. Having help with one's armor was expected historically, whether it was from a fellow man-at-arms or a dedicated servant, it wouldn't have been a solo affair, so if it's important for you to have your character get into her armor by herself, you'll have to think about the practicality of components that would allow you to do that.
There's plenty of examples in artwork of people fighting without a visor on at all and they don't necessarily have any additional piece of equipment to protect their face, but if you wanted to do something like that I don't see a reason you shouldn't. It just didn't seem to be necessary, historically.
As far as footwear goes, there's not much evidence for trying to add tread to shoes during the medieval period. The soles of surviving shoes are nice and soft, which allows you to have good 'feel' for the earth beneath your feet, much like modern 'barefoot' style shoes. On harder surfaces, or wet surfaces, especially common in the later middle ages you see what are called 'pattens.' They are a wooden overshoe, or sandal that slips over the leather shoe, but these are for wear in normal clothes. They wouldn't be practical to fight in. Leather soled shoes aren't as slippery as you might think on soft earth as long as their soles are soft, supple and not overly stiff (think Native American moccasins).
All right thanks, I guess she'll have help from someone, it's not so much so she can put it on herself but more so to put it on quickly.
The buckler's just really interesting to me but I guess if she has a full steel gauntlet and vambrace it wouldn't really be necessary now that I think about it,
the leather vs plate boots thing comes from the channel "Lindybeige" where he spoke of doing re-enactments where he would have to be careful how he walked on surfaces based on his footwear, softer leather shoes struggled in grass and dirt whilst bottom steeled boots wouldn't get a good grip on stone pathes or asphalt. thanks for the info though I'll go ahead with that in mind
I'm skeptical of the type of shoes Lloyd was wearing... I've worn and made several different pairs of historical turnshoes and haven't had too much issue. Going up a wet grassy hill would be problematic though. Everything I do in this video is in soft soled medieval turnshoes in full harness on an unprepared surface (ruclips.net/video/7RR6I-BLKbQ/видео.htmlm10s) Here's an option though: From the late 15th century text 'How a Man Shall be Armed at his Ease When he Shall Fight on Foot - ""Also a pair of shoes of thick cordwene and they must be fitted with small whipcords with three knots upon a cord and three cords must be sown fast onto the heel of the shoe and fine cords in the middle of the sole of the same shoe. And that there be between the frets of the heel and the frets of the middle of the shoe the space of three fingers." So, knotted cord was at least used in the context of judicial duel for traction in the late 15th century (cordwene is just a type of leather, similar to modern 'cordovan' leather). In the modern practice of Historical European Martial Arts, overly grippy shoes will actually prevent certain techniques from working, and in some cases can put you at risk of knee and ankle injury when force is applied and your foot can't slide.
who is this one guy that didnt like this ???? what is your reason.
For me it's mail. I'm fat, and have seen enough plates....
I agree with your points from the anatomical perspective, although it's worth remembering that artwork is often commissioned, and therefore likely to be extra flattering to the client. Artists often stick with a generic 'template' for their depictions, drawing the same shapes with minor changes. Most weren't at the battles they depict, they just imagine how things were, based on very little personal experience. The surviving armours we see are usually high end, bespoke, and therefore expensive pieces. Those without the resources for such things, would no doubt have had whatever they could afford, or whatever they were given. Then, as today, there was a broad spectrum from cheap, generic pieces to the the tailored high end. Any armour is better than no armour.
So the correct proportions of a breast plate is kinda like a medieval crop top.
A breastplate is protection for the breast, not the bowels :) Think of it as a reinforcement for your rib cage, protecting your heart and lungs, like a modern plate carrier.
Interesting modern bullet proof vest are also similar length to correct breastplate.
+swietoslaw Yes. Because just like medieval breastplats, they're there to protect your vital organs, not the abdomen.
Knyght Errant
Butt stomach is I think vulnerable point of body ?
+swietoslaw Of course it is. But it's not the job of the breastplate or modern rifle plate to protect the stomach. Either the mail or a combination of mail and a fauld is responsible for protecting the abdomen. If the breastplate was extended to protect the abdomen you couldn't bend at the waist.
i love your beard
+Esteban Mares Thanks!
You have ruined armor and opened my eyes but if truth be told I did notice this and it got me thinking. But anywho I'm more of a 'brig' guy myself but if I need solid armor this will be one of the first things I'll be looking for and yes again next time I watch Game of Thrones I'll have something else to yell at the TV about.
+Bloodaxetheirritable Globose coats of plates and 15th century brigs tend to follow this same rule :)
What can be seen can't be unseen.
What can be said can't be unsaid.
All I think about now is properly made and fitted Globose armor. It's all I see and don't talk to me about GOT' my standards have just gone up another notch. My wife is not happy.......
Dear Ean how thick is your Breastplate and is it Evenly thick at all places?
Who accidentaly hit the dislike?