Kodak invented digital photography in 1975. Then proceeded to do nothing and let the rest of the world surpass them. Selling a $5k stupid hybrid retro film video camera is right in line with their business sense.
Just get it’s big brother 16mm for half the price. Don’t be fooled by an extended gate 😂… you need to keep in mind development is constant so save your money. The film look is incredible and just can’t be imitated. But this is marketed towards new people…
@@johnnywishbone831Kodak created digital photography. Yet here you are bitching within the medium they played a MASSIVE part in creating and maintaining throughout the decades. So A) be thankful. B) if you’re paying 5 grand for super 8mm film for one of nostalgic RUclips video. That’s your fault man. I really don’t know what to tell you
When Kodak first announced this, the price was going to be $400-$700, there would be a film ecosystem where youd purchase film+processing for about $50 a pop. Then they upped the expected price the next year, then nothing for 5+ years... The fact that it still has a micro usb lets me know there was just a first production run of these things sitting for that entire time, and in 2023 someone had the brilliant idea to offload them. So unfortunately, I dont think this is the first step in a film camera relaunch, theyre just cutting losses here.
I think this is probably the most likely situation. And the price point is meant to attract luxury buyers with loads of disposable income. Get as much as they can for this failed project.
No disrespect here, but I've *never* heard of any figures of $400- $700 for this. Kodak bought the patents from a European company and then they sat on it. But that Euro company had there's listed at 2 grand and that was many years ago. I'm not surprised the price is inflated as it is.
@@renc2002 Search for a video on the Verge titled "The 8mm Camera Return Explained by Kodak CEO Jeff Clarke". In that video he gives that as the targeted price. To be fair, he did say once they reached scale, but that was the intent.
Yes. I heard this too. I can also assume pre-Covid/inflation on parts is a huge reason why as well. A manfrotto tripod I use to buy for $600 is now $1300 just because they can. Companies are charging more and we are making less with even less spending power. It’s wild Kodak thinks this will work.
I actually thought it was a joke when I saw the price 😂 There are SOOO many quality working used super 8 cameras on eBay for a few hundred $ (I have a couple myself).
The film ecosystem was, by far, the most compelling part of the Kodak Super 8 project. They talked about having a network of partners that would make digitizing your film easier and cheaper. Let's be honest: very few people will shoot Super 8 films to play them back on a projector. This is about getting that film effect into digital video. I shot two 50' cartridges six years ago, and it cost close to $200 to buy the film, get it processed, and scan it to 2K. If Kodak could ever get a hold of the processing ecosystem, the cost-to-shoot could drop, and shooting Super 8 could finally become more than an expensive or professionals-only activity. Even after announcing that the cost would be $400 to $750 for the camera in 2016, they promised that a less expensive model would come in 2017. When I got the email that I could finally get in line to buy the camera, I was shocked that it was over $5,500. I would love to hear the inside story of this project.
Your comment never gets old. I still fall over laughing when I read it. I come back to this video every now and again. I have my Rollei SL83 Super 8 camera. So F U (forget you) Kodak!!!
It seems to me the key here is “limited edition.” Kodak is not pricing a tool. Kodak is pricing a luxury lifestyle accessory. It is kind of like the Leica business model.
Leica really doesn't do that though... neither are Leica (with exception) limited runs... nor are they luxury lifestyle... Unless there's somewhere cheap digital Rangefinder cameras? And even back in the days other interchangable lens Rangefinder were pretty much in line with Leica when it came to price....
@@LoFiAxolotlI think if you look at Leica’s marketing, it’s very much luxury lifestyle…from celebrity ambassadors to promotion through Bond movies. A Leica store shares more in common with a Rolex store than normal camera stores.
I’ve just paid £420 for a Canon 1014 from eBay and I thought I was getting robbed at that price for a super 8 camera. Prior to that the most I paid was £100. The inherent Lo-if picture quality of super 8 isn’t going to change that much whether it’s a low end or high end camera. Shoot it with a £100 potato and be done!
There are scans of Super 8, particularly from the Logmar camera (which also developed this Kodak camera) which are very close to 16mm in appearance. Do a search on YT for the Logmar Super 8 camera, and also some of the examples on the Pro8mm from their own extended gate Super 8 shoots. The Kodak camera will be used by professionals, either via rental, or the many people who use S8 for the retro look to intercut with fashion videos, weddings etc. For those people, a vintage camera is not guaranteed to be reliable. I know people in production who are considering the Kodak camera simply because it helps with production insurance risk assessment.
Respectfully Simon Super 8 is a quarter the film area of 16mm and even less for Super 16. It’s nowhere near the quality of 16mm. Even if Christopher Nolan shot super 8 with a modified imax camera and Harry Potter scanned it with his magic scanning wand it wouldn’t be anywhere near the quality. I’ve seen really good scans from super 8 Beaulieu equipment and it looks great but it’s still lo-fi and a completely different look from 16mm. I’ve seen and shot both formats on decent equipment and potatoes. They’re not comparable. You shoot super 8 for the lo-if look and not because you can’t afford to shoot on 16mm because there isn’t as much of a difference in cost as you would imagine. You get a better lo-fi look from a potato than a Beaulieu. Just my opinion though. Have a good day wherever you are in the world.
@@SilverAndSensor I know very well what the stats are, and what dogma says the format can and cannot do. I never said anyone would use it as a substitute for 16mm BTW, so I'd appreciate it if we ditched the sarcasm. Since I use Super 8 myself, I've seen with my own scans what's possible now. As I said, take a look on RUclips for footage shot with the Logmar Super 8 camera, such as this one ruclips.net/video/3Nh9BTMWj9M/видео.html, and some of the other scans done by Pro8mm in their own extended format. Just as modern 4K scans of Super 16 resolve far more quality than they did even in the 2000s (the BBC didn't even rate Super 16 as being HD quality at the time), modern, stabilised scans of Super 8 can also now look extraordinarily good. It's all relative. Modern scans of 16mm have got a lot better, and modern scans of Super 8 have improved in parallel. Just that the newest scans and the format are capable of much more than a lot of people give it credit for.
Perhaps. It seems to me like the costs got out of hand, and now they need to correct. Eight years of RND can't be cheap. However, it's still massively overpriced, IMO.
How do you figure, when a Pro8mm Classic with a Max8 gate is $3500, without crystal sync, without a digital viewfinder, and without Kodak manufacturing and warranty. HBO used them for Winning Time. Rental houses rent them for $450 a day. 8mm is still in demand for things like music videos, art films, weddings, etc. Plenty of people will buy this, it is reasonably priced for what it is, it just isn't for most people.@@JoshDiazDOP
Thank you Brother. I was on the list and received a notification from B&H saying, “As an early enlistee you’re receiving this email letting you know that your camera is ready for order. Failure to do so before Wednesday 19th June, (two days from now) will result in you losing your spot!” After seeing this review, you’ve just saved me $5,500!! Thanks again for the dose of reality.
Omg literally in the same exact boat! Got my email this morning! Was thinking I would buy to test and return if it’s not great but it feels like it wouldn’t even be worth the test 😅
this is built and marketed as a cine super8 camera through and through. a high end cine super8 camera kind of makes sense in the sense that super8 cameras are being used as an niche artistic choice nowadays. most productions will just rent these, as they do with arris, lenses and the like.
Feels like a missed opportunity. Having shot on my 1960s Super 8 for the past 3 years, I'd love to have a go on a modern Super 8, but not for that price. $2000 would be my limit, so I guess I'll just keep shooting on my old camera, nothing lost, nothing gained.
It's definitely a missed opportunity. This camera is a threat only to two other cameras, Pro8mm's Classic, and Logmar's now-discontinued one, of which this is a distant cousin. The only advantage it has over the Pro8mm cam is that the supply of Beaulieu bodies is drying up, so Pro8mm's bound to start jacking up the price one day. It's a good thing Kodak's motion picture film operations are strong; they'll certainly soften the financial blow this boondoggle will cost them.
It’s gotta be designed as a specialty camera for a production company that makes music videos and through a a few shots of “real film” in a music video
I am pretty convinced that this is a good thing. This Camera is for the hypebeasts. People that dont care about the money, they want that thing. I think the reason this exists is because Kodaks priority is to survive and continue to produce film. But they have been losing money left and right since they came back. This is why film prices have spiked during the last years. They are not a profitable company. Every single one of those cameras that will be sold will have a crazy high profit margin. Is the price high? Of course, it's ridiculous. But I can really imagine this product only exists to keep their unprofitable film business afloat. And if that is the case and it works, I have no problem with it at all. But mixing the LCD, which is a super cool idea, with micro usb...thats just too much. They should have made it a high quality camera with top of the line specs. The design is great. But if it feels cheap, that would break the concept. Making money of off the film won't work. They are trying. Look at their prices, they raised them so much to become profitable. They went bankrupt almost twice now trying to make their money by selling film. It does not work in the digital era. I guess this is part of their solution for this problem. And I think it might just work. Look at A24, a Producer House in Hollywood that still makes midbudget, artsy, non-blockbuster movies in 2023. And they keep (or at least used to keep) themselves afloat by selling merchandise. This merchandise is not as ridiculously expensive as this camera, but I think it's a similar concept. If Kodak continues to feed into this very market, that is until now only filled by pixii and leica (with the difference that those cameras are actually great), that might just work for them. I know it's a far fetched take, especially at this ridiculous price, 3000 would've been better for a well produced camera, but I think its a possibility.
Super 8 mm used to be a perfect format for home movies. Professional films were always shot on 16 or 35 mm film. Releasing an amateur camera that costs more than 3 BlackMagic Ursas - which have been used professionally - is ridiculous.
If this camera had an automatic develop of the film and an automatic digitalization of the negative into cine dng, that would justify the price,. But i know that is not the case, i think
A compromise could’ve been to make it crystal sync and audio recording only and no digital video recording. The sync sound capabilities would’ve been a good selling point especially if they had priced it low.
The things you said in this video instantly make me realise this camera isn’t marketed to you or for you. ‘Retro style film camera’ ‘Film style video camera’ ‘Nobody has been developing it other than kodak’ There have been other companies trying to make a super 8 camera, logmar most recently from whom kodak bought this concept from for the new camera. ‘Unique to view your film on an lcd’ Every 16mm 35mm and 65mm camera used in a professional environment will have a video tap for viewing digitally. ‘you can only record audio at the lower frame rates’ The fact that you can even record any internally digitally recorded audio on a film camera is pretty much a 1 of a kind. Not to mention it’s crystal sync for sync sound which is also a professional feature almost no super 8 cameras have. ‘3 minutes at 18fps’ 3.5 minutes at 18 and the camera isn’t made to shoot interviews obviously. ‘shooting film for the film aesthetic’ 🤨 ‘super 8 was birthed in a need to save money’ No it wasn’t it was created as an easy to use format, no home movie was going to be shot on 35mm. Also it kodaks super 8 films were never cheapest. So if you started with super 8 on a budget you likely weren’t shooting kodak film. ‘when 35mm got too expensive people went to 16mm and down to 8’ again, no they didn’t, most people who shot 8mm never shot 35 or even 16. ‘it prices everyone out of buying the camera’ It prices out people who want to ‘try out the film aesthetic’ sure but it’s not made for that type of person. It has professional features for people wanting to shoot low budget music videos or indie shorts. ‘kodak should’ve gone the direction of printer makers’ nice idea now all the film would be even more expensive because you can’t differentiate super 8 for the kodak camera and super 8 for other consumers. ‘the product they’ve been subsiding on’ they make almost an irrelevant amount of income from their film business, their earnings report confirmed that. In fact that subsidise their film business with their other businesses. ‘they could’ve given us a more expensive system to invest in down the line’ This IS the expensive system. it’s got professional features, if you want to experiment, buy that old super 8 camera off ebay. But if you want one that looks good and you can put modern lenses on and sync sound with, you have to buy this. ‘you can grab any number of film cameras’ literally my point previously. ‘it has micro usb’ yeah fair enough the design is the same from 2017 but they should and might have to change it to usb c before selling in the eu ‘i don’t see very many people buying them’ i can assure you this will be sold out pretty quick, just like the logmar professional super 8 camera that now costs over 10k. ‘indulge in the novelty’ sure there will be some collectors, but this is for schools, rental houses, indie film makers, music video shooters etc. ‘the price is just so unhinged’ yes, it’s expensive, but it’s not unhinged for a limited production camera. Cameras can only be cheap if you build 100k units. this isn’t that, it’s custom built, sourcing all those parts in small quantities, paying the labour to assembly it not on a production line, not to mention the huge amount of r&d on an item that isn’t mass market. Capitalism and consumerism has caused the idea that everything has to be cheap, this just cannot be priced any longer at the expected 700$ or 2500$ because of the costs associated with it. ‘that kodak has to fix’ they literally do not, they will sell them all at this price to people who value what they’ve made. I won’t be buying it, but that’s also partly for other reasons than the price, but it’s seemingly not for people like you anyway, so it just joining in the bashing of a project just because you don’t see the benefits of the product seems a bit out of touch.
the most informative, in touch, unbiased comment. instead of people just bashing due to price point people should recognize & analyze why it costs that much.
At this price an independent custom shop could undercut them. Actually the most cost (and eco) effective means would probably be to restomod old super 8 cams. Which would have the benefit of more nostalgia. Having an actual metal device from the 1960s in your hands.
The $5,500 limited edition price seemed like an "influencer" price to me, like some out-of-touch marketing exec thought he could get Marquez Brownlee to spend that for first dibs on the camera. Except young people generally don't care about film because it's not accessible or affordable anymore.
Thanks for this. I shoot super 8 and would LOVE to have a NEW camera. It's tough trying to keep old cameras in working order. But $5,500 is too much for a fairly simple camera.
What camera do you have? I still use my Rollei SL83 thank you very much and as in love with it now like I was when I first got it all those years back.
@@Headintodreams I am glad to hear that you are happy with your Rollei. I have 3 working cameras, but my main one is a Canon Auto Zoom 814. It has a few problems though and I am increasing relying on my Chinon 213PXL; it never fails me.
You can get a second hand Arriflex SR camera for close to $6K. That is a sync-sound capable, production-ready, workhorse 16mm film camera for around the same price as an 8mm hipster toy.
If Kodak went the route of the Instax cameras, with the bubbly, matte white plastic aesthetic for the camera, and marketed to tiktok polaroid crowd they would have a hit
People aren't moving back to film as a collective trend for all the practical reasons mentioned. Kodak has produced a limited edition 8mm throwback option for those who want it. They aren't looking to hit the market and sellproduct in droves. It's obvious if one isn't looking at this through a consumerist fast food lens of "this pricing is crazy Kodak, you aren't going to sell millions of these"... This is for those who have money to burn but also professionals. Vloggers, not so much. This camera is a creative tool for professionals and those who want to deep dive into an essentially lost medium.
Then what’s the electronics and sound recording about ? That wasn’t there in the old days and nothing to do with the medium. Much of the price must be going towards new things not lost things.
No arguing that it's pricey. I think the reason is, they did the math and realised they'd messed up. I think you are at risk of underestimating just how hard it is to make a Super 8 camera that's of reasonable quality. Yes, in days gone by, there were mass-market cheap cameras, but they had the advantage of exactly that, mass market economy of scale. The design of the Kodak Super 8 cartridge is both genius and hugely flawed. Camera makers come up against a quality brick wall caused by the pressure plate behind the film. Minute variations in the pressure, smoothness, coating quality of the film, heat, humidity, film tension etc can cause serious image stability issues or even stop the film from advancing. Couple this with the tiny frame size that amplifies the slightest gate weave, pull-down inconsistency and focus breathing and you have a major engineering challenge. But, but, I hear everyone calling, they used to make millions of 8mm cameras?! Yep, but the manufacturing capability isn't just sitting there dormant, if has to be built and tested and honed. When this has to be done for a small market, that cost per unit becomes considerable. Then factor in the cost of aftermarket support, and profit margin (yep, because there is no proven market precedent for this, so a loss-leader gamble would be madness for an already precarious company) and you soon realise how it would be quite easy to get to a figure like this. It may well be a self-defeating folly because of the cost too. It looks cheap, because I guess it's been designed to make use of manufacturing techniques that have lower entry costs. Making complex injection mouldings in alloy or high-grade plastics takes serious money tooling which makes no sense for low volumes. But, the price doesn't look so massive if you consider a commercial shoot where your 40 year old camera fails, you shoot with your B camera and then find the footage is unusable and have to re-shoot. That alone could pay for this camera many times over. I had two Nikon R10s fail and that in itself was over £1000 in second hand cameras down the pan, unfixable. So, as a professional tool, if it's reliable, it's probably worth it. It has a monitor and tap out and is xtal sync, so that sets it apart from anything out there.
But what professional will add this to the pipeline, perhaps Christopher Nolan. But if I'm producing and the Director or DP says to me we need to purchase this for a nostalgic look for our flashback, I'd say there are post solutions to "degrade" the image that will read as 8mm film. And, save us money.
HBO literally just filmed Winning Time using a bunch of Pro8mm Classic Max 8 Cameras. Which retail for $3500 each. And don't have crystal sync, or digital viewfinder tap, you can pay them to add crystal sync, and then you end up paying more than this camera. You can also rent one, for $450 a day. There is a market for these. Rental houses, fine arts schools, movie studios, etc will all want them. People still want Super8 for things like music videos or certain "artsy" ads, or actual fine art, because of the look. And if you want that look, in a brand new manufacturer warranted open it up out of the box and it has it all and also comes from major manufacturer Kodak, this is a normal price. @@JeffersonDonald
@@tenfingerstentoes Still believe it's extreme niche and that replicating the look can be done in post. I'm of the mindset that just because you can doesn't mean you should. We're you involved in the decision making for the HBO project? What were the considerations for the artistic look vs. costs?
No I was not involved in the project. For a movie studio $5500 for a camera is nothing, they would buy 10 of them, its who even cares money. These are places that pay $450,000 for a set of anamorphic lenses for cinema cameras that also cost multiples of this camera. At $5500, these are totally reasonable for wedding videographers who cater to an artsy/nostalgia sort of client base. For what you can charge filming a wedding on super 8, and with the quality you can produce with the advanced features, it will pay for itself in a couple of weddings. It CERTAINLY is a niche product, but that doesn't make it dumb or bad. It means it's not for most people, and I think this is where the confusion is for so many people on this. They think of 8mm as just "that old thing you found in a closet and ran 1 cartridge through for a laugh a couple years ago", but there is more to it than that. @@JeffersonDonald
Surely, you can just buy an older secondhand Super8 camera from the 70s or 80s that's still in excellent usable condition and use that with the new Kodak Super8 cartridges? I might give that a shot, especially since they'll digitize the film as part of developing it.
A simple point and shoot or slr film camera would do so much better sales and/or pr wise. It’ll be hard to compete with the current digital powerhouses. It’s sad that if this fails they spent another lump of r&d without gaining anything from it. I hope they can keep afloat and keep moving ahead with new products if this doesn’t take off.
They are building a new infrastructure for modern motion film cameras for consumers. I expected this because they are getting their footing for this lane hopefully other companies will follow and we see a competitive market with lower prices. With all that being said I’m not paying 5k lmao someone will tho!
Personally I think the price is fair. A rebuilt/refurbished Super 8 cam from Pro 8mm is about three thousand and while it has some of these features it doesn’t include sound sync and digital view screens etc. I definitely still want one.
It's for pros and rental houses surely? It seems designed to fit in a workflow where you'd be using it alongside Red or Arri digital cameras. Super8 B-roll?
Sometimes I think things like this are only really priced for people who have money to burn, who want to show off that they've got money to burn in a really niche way! 🤔
I honestly thought we were never going to see this thing, and then got excited when it showed up. I was concerned about "limited edition" and then frankly just disappointed when I saw the price. Sure some lenses in my 2024 budget cost more than this, but when Pro8mm makes 8mm cinema cameras for less than half the cost, and they're really only missing the digital flippy screen? It's kinda ridiculous.
Disconnected from reality is right. Even ignoring the cost of this camera, the price of super8 film seems prohibitive for people outside of an extremely narrow niche of people shooting video on film.
The Leica M11 sells for $9000, and their M6 film camera re-make retails for $5700. As a special edition, limited quantity item, Kodak’s new S8 camera isn’t completely out of line with niche still film offerings. BTW, 35mm movie film was not a consumer format. And movie cameras did eventually get video assist, the invention of which is usually credited to actor Jerry Lewis, so this is not the first movie camera to have a screen.
A Leica M6 is built extremely well, that thing is a tank. Yes the Leica is excessively expensive but at least it justifies its cost. Not to mention 35mm film is a professional film stock and can be used in that sense, there are wedding photographers out there shooting on Leica film cameras. Super 8 is a budget home video format and excluding novelty shooting for stylised videos like music videos, it doesn't have a utility in the professional world, to which is priced at. I mean its made of plastic, likely isn't weather sealed in anyway, charges with a bloody usb-b slot. It's a joke. It would be justifiable at $1000 as a niche product but $5495, nah.
@@jockslifeatliftvideoproduc8528 I know a thing or two about Leicas, I have six. Maybe I should have used my Contax 645 as an example; it has a polycarbonate/plastic body as do the pricey Mamiya 7s, both of them medium format film cameras that go for a fair chunk of change, and they're used. Personally, I don't like S8 enough to put out this kind of cash for new machine in that format, but I'm sure there will be quite a few who'll jump on this. And the majority who won't. Me, I'll stick to my 16mm Bolex Rex-3 and Eclair.
It's likely just not to sell in high volume and become a collectors item, so what you pay now doesn't matter. As long as you take care of it, its value will go up. It's for collectors and actual film maker's.
The insane part is that you can buy a Sony FX3 - you know, the camera they used to shoot most of The Creator on - and a kit lens for the price of this Super 8 camera and have a bit of change left over. You had really better love the Super 8 aesthetic to buy this thing!
even if you liked Super 8, you can literally pay for and refurbish the highest possible end Super 8 consumer bodies from eg. Canon _and_ multiple lenses and like 20 boxes of film for the cost of 5,500$ it literally makes zero sense to pick this one up outside of the shiny new box and the kodak brand name. Could argue for internal crystal sync but I'm not quite sure if 5,500$ justifies that
I’m really curious to find out if any of these have been placed on the pre-order list. Other than someone with endless resources ($$) buying one to be able to say they did, I can’t think of anyone who would order one. I’m going to try to find out about their sales numbers.
Most old super 8s aren't crystal sync 24fps and definitely don't give you HDMI out or a built in video tap. C-mount is highly adaptable. As a long time film shooter I'm pretty excited about this camera. It'd be cool to throw this thing on a drone or a modern gimbal. Price is high and I wish it was S16 but I still want one and don't really care about the money.
I agree. There is a lot to be excited about feature wise. Maybe when I see it in the field, I'll change my tune. Until then, I'm concerned about the price.
if it was 16mm or super 16mm this would be an interesting choice to shoot on. Super 8 looks like the entire esthetic could be done with carful lens choices from a modern digital camera and a the right amount of post production.
It's meant for industry. You're supposed to rent it from a production house, shoot your thing, and return it. I'm pretty sure that is why it has the features it does.
For that price you can get an early 2000's mini cooper. Also seems like something a certain Film Uni would give a new student and tack on 15k to the tuition.
They know the market is blowing up for film movie cameras seeing a 16mm camera like this brand new would be 10k. Kodak is a head of the curve. The price is right. It’ll sell out just watch.
Being limited edition and the first camera from Kodak in this format, I have no doubt it will sell. I hope they can get the tech price down in the future.
Most people who still shoot super8 in any kind of quantity is loaded anyway, so cater to them. the demand is low, price is high. we have dirt cheap working 8mm cams already, and almost no-one shoots it because the cost of film and development is very high. I think still film photography and motion film photography are very different beasts, and what happens with the market with one doesn't necessarily translate to the other.
Okay so I am finding myself wanting to get back into film photography. I am curious to see if Kodak still has anything to do with said topic. So I go to their website and lo and behold not only do they still have their feet in at least the shallow end they are also reintroducing super 8 to the mix as well wow I say to myself that's amazing I love that idea. I wonder how much this will cost if I was interested in it I say to myself. Drum roll please. A mere $5,500 you say? And a free cleaning cloth thrown in? Sign me up! Sarcastic eye roll coming in 3...2...1...
I wanted to buy one of these when they first announced it but at this price you can forget it. I have 3 super 8 cameras that work just fine, I'll stick with them.
I remember so well when in 1985 my brother and me bought a Kodak Super8 camera, new, in a price of $5,000 Chilean Pesos, today it would be around $50,000 it is USD50. Super8 films were obsolet in 1985, Camcorder was the new on videocameras. Kodak cartridge 50ft and Agfachrome cartridge were available only, but Agfa hade proccess of develope free, one month of delay, due they sent to Germany labs. _Greetings from Santiago Chile SouthAmerica._
I got the email to buy (been on the list forever)... I say the price and was like... "WAHHHHHH?????" It's absurd. I get it is a bespoke thing, but that price is ... just lunacy.
I was really excited for this, and I thought it was going to be around $800. But, holy moly and a tea cup, if anyone actually pays $5.5k for it in this economy they should be ashamed of themselves.
I think they would have gotten so many people into film cameras if they made it more affordable. Film is a stylistic choice that’s why they price it so highly but many people don’t get into film exactly because of how expensive it is.
This camera is developed with Logmar, who made a fancier Super 8 camera at the same price. This camera cannot handle old sound or 200-ft Super 8 cartridges, both of which you can still find on eBay and the like to shoot and experiment with, but is the first Kodak Super 8 where you can change the lens. Their Supermatic and Ektasound cameras could handle sound cartridges and had an I interesting design, but save their early M2 and M4 super 8 cameras, they have insides that disintegrate eventually and are unfixable. They also were supposed to develop your negative film that you shot with this camera and put it on The Cloud, but maybe they changed their mind. Many sound cameras have at least as many features and so do some of ht better silent ones. You can get a solid, working Super 8 camera that does 24fps sound sped at around $35.00 if you know how to look for them, like avoiding 'not tested' models and researching any one you intend to buy on line or in a store.
How close can you get to film with digital? I get the appeal of film, but with AI I wouldn't be surprised if we could get awfully close in a few years.
When are people going to wake up to the fact that Kodak is not a very good company. They only make one fantastic product that is available in a variety of flavors… film. And they’re even screwing up the business model of that one. With the resurgence of interest in film photography during the past 7 years, they have decided to kill the goose who laid golden egg by overcharging those new customers. Many early adopters of the current film revival are already switching to vintage digital cameras for some of their photography to mitigate the cost of shooting film. Kodak is run by idiots.
i hate the fact that the price has gone up so much i have always shot on film i never got into Digital when it came out. i remember back when film was cheap now i try to take photos that matter some shops charge alot more than others and i don't know why they are charging so much in some places the only thing that comes to mind is Inflation
Looks Great, but with the amount of footage I shoot, It's still cheaper to use my vintage Super 8 cameras and digitize it. Come on Kodak.. If you make this affordable, It would start a new Super 8 film revalution. Vinyl Came back, so can Super 8.
Accounting for inflation, $5k isn't far off what a S8 camera would have cost back in its heyday. A lot of people here totally misunderstanding this camera. Firstly, it's not going to be mass produced. It's only a limited run, with some of these likely going to rental. Secondly, Super 8 is being used a lot for the retro look on everything from fashion shoots to wedding videographers who specialise in producing Super 8mm wedding memories. For these types of people who are using the camera for professional application, the $5k price tag will pay for itself quickly. So, why buy this when you can get a vintage camera? Simple. The new Kodak camera ensures reliability, which is bloody important when it comes to production insurance, as well as giving much easier focusing via the LCD display and separate synced audio recording to an onboard SD card. BTW, the initial camera wasn't developed by Kodak, but by Logmar, which produced its own brand new Super 8mm camera a few years back and sold it for double the price of the Kodak branded camera. Logmar is also in the process of developing another new Super 8 camera, and I can guarantee you that it won't be sold for less than this one.
The way I see this is that there is no such thing as "accessible" 8 mm nowadays. The cost of film + processing alone is prohibitively expensive for amateurs or hobbyists. 80-100 USD for 2-3 minutes of footage? No thanks. Even if the camera was gifted to me, I wouldn't be tempted to such an investment. Especially when there are digital emulations that are good enough if you just want to get a retro effect. Maybe professional film makers would be interested in this but I don't know if those wouldn't have been much happier with 16 mm format...
As someone who started using Super 8, back in 1973, this is surely a short-lived and needlessly expensive gimmick! The sound off a cine film - by today's standard - is poor, to say the least. (Mono sound). I moved onto a Canon XF 405 (stereo), which has slots for two SD cards. I film then edit at 3840x2160 resolution, with picture brighter than any cine projector. The longest time I have to wait is for a movie edit to render as it comes onto my pc.
Love the camera. Do not love the price. At a push I would consider buying one at a max price of $2K. Although, I don’t think it should be priced any higher than $1.5K
I’m still not entirely sure why it’s priced like this. An Arriflex isn’t that much more expensive an will be an absolutely much more enticing experience. Kodak keeps fumbling the opportunity to hit the consumer/prosumer market. The film community is slowly rebuilding and the only people taking advantage are third parties and now surprisingly Ilford’s parent company Harman is going into color film. Kodak sells film well, but they need to invest in platforms… that are AFFORDABLE.
Sure, you can get a used Arriflex for around $5k. Then you have to buy all the film to fill a 400ft mag or two, manually thread it all through in a darkened room after you've meticulously cleaned the gate, manually expose everything etc, plus the additional development costs. Hardly the spontaneity and portability that Super 8 offers. Two totally different types of market and user. When you account for inflation, $5k is close to what a new Super 8 camera cost people back in its heyday. If you took the Arriflex that you mention, and imagine a company making a newly designed one, you can bet it would be sold for $50k or more. Even a used S16 Arri 416 still goes for nearly $80k. If you're one of the many wedding people who are shooting Super 8 weddings now, the $5k price tag for the new Kodak camera will make its money back in a couple of jobs, and you have the reassurance that it'll be a reliable camera. Something you can't guarantee with a vintage camera.
@@simonwyndham you could also get a beaulieu 4008 for 10x less and equip it with a video tap. that camera has lasted for 60 years and may never go obsolete, I doubt this one will last that long.
Separate issue but what I could never fathom is why Kodak (or somebody) has yet to create a new cartridge mag for professional 35mm and 16mm film. Imagine never having to use a changing bag to load film. Never understood why cartridge tech didn't carry over from consumer Super 8 (and at one point 16mm) to 35.
There’s always the other way to look at things. If you begin with the price, you can ask what you get for it and that’s where this camera crumbles. No critical focusing is possible. No exposure times are known (or the shutter opening angle). No service will be offered, well, a true good repair service. No spare parts will be available. No points are given on how the product should be taken care of by the owner. You are completely right, the Kodak people have lost the ground. The 1940 Double-Eight magazine is still superior to the Super-8 cartridge because you can flip it over, run film the other direction, flip it back, and superimpose, for example. In doing so you don’t lose one frame, the 8-mm. magazine has an internal light cover which is closed at the opening of the camera door. To have a new and very expensive camera built on the base of the BAD Super-8 cartridge is the main mistake. Why not Single-8? That is an internationally standardised system and it is the better one. Or the 200-ft. cartridge Kodak once sold. Or a Double-Super-8 model. All Super-8 film is DS-8 for a moment when it leaves the perforator. The web is slit to 16 mm, then perforated, then cut to 8 mm, then cut to length.
Screw it. Get an old Bolex 155 or 160 Macrozoom. Done. Also, 50 feet is 3 min and 20 seconds at 18 fps, and 2 mins 40 seconds at 24 fps. (Maybe Guy Maddin will use this.)
I was really into film photography back then and I was really happy to hear about that camera, but it's freaking expensive for what is a camera that shoots nostalgia quality videos. 700$ is okay, I would pay that much for some nostalgia videos, but this is expensive as fuck.
I have to say, anyone who thinks this should be a cheap camera clearly doesn’t get the target audience. If this camera was $500 I seriously doubt it would move more units in any significant way. Because the film and development is so costly no one is using this unless they really need it. Which means this a rental. It’s a rental and you shoot like 5 mags for your Wonder Years / Succession show open style motif and you’re done. So it will make sense for rental houses to own it and not operators. There’s No way anyone except for super nerd users are going to take this on vacation or use this for their Insta or try to shoot any substantial amount of a film on. So it’s a niche product for niche use and no surprise that it’s going to sell for a niche price.
With that price I would guess they want to go out of business again. Also if they are processing super 8 again people will just use old cameras. Much cheaper.
Kodak invented digital photography in 1975. Then proceeded to do nothing and let the rest of the world surpass them. Selling a $5k stupid hybrid retro film video camera is right in line with their business sense.
I think the people who do buy it will love it. I just wish more people could buy it.
@@JoshDiazDOP Yeah I was a little harsh. Just a shame the price is insanely high. $999 maybe.
@@johnnywishbone831nah.. 300-500$ max
Just get it’s big brother 16mm for half the price. Don’t be fooled by an extended gate 😂… you need to keep in mind development is constant so save your money. The film look is incredible and just can’t be imitated. But this is marketed towards new people…
@@johnnywishbone831Kodak created digital photography. Yet here you are bitching within the medium they played a MASSIVE part in creating and maintaining throughout the decades. So A) be thankful. B) if you’re paying 5 grand for super 8mm film for one of nostalgic RUclips video. That’s your fault man. I really don’t know what to tell you
When Kodak first announced this, the price was going to be $400-$700, there would be a film ecosystem where youd purchase film+processing for about $50 a pop. Then they upped the expected price the next year, then nothing for 5+ years... The fact that it still has a micro usb lets me know there was just a first production run of these things sitting for that entire time, and in 2023 someone had the brilliant idea to offload them. So unfortunately, I dont think this is the first step in a film camera relaunch, theyre just cutting losses here.
I think this is probably the most likely situation. And the price point is meant to attract luxury buyers with loads of disposable income. Get as much as they can for this failed project.
No disrespect here, but I've *never* heard of any figures of $400- $700 for this. Kodak bought the patents from a European company and then they sat on it. But that Euro company had there's listed at 2 grand and that was many years ago.
I'm not surprised the price is inflated as it is.
@@renc2002 $400-700 was the price given when originally announced in January 2016. Just search the internet.
@@renc2002 Search for a video on the Verge titled "The 8mm Camera Return Explained by Kodak CEO Jeff Clarke". In that video he gives that as the targeted price. To be fair, he did say once they reached scale, but that was the intent.
Yes. I heard this too. I can also assume pre-Covid/inflation on parts is a huge reason why as well. A manfrotto tripod I use to buy for $600 is now $1300 just because they can. Companies are charging more and we are making less with even less spending power. It’s wild Kodak thinks this will work.
If this were a 16mm camera, the price would be fully justified.
For a few extra pineapples more than the asking price of this piece of s***, you can get an Arriflex 16 mm
Yeah, look at the airriflex 416. Great camera! I’ve worked with it, plus it has a lot of adaptability to the modern digital world.
@@Paytonwhthe 416 is 100k usd to buy…
@@chrishestand1032 Reconditioned ones are half the price of Kodak
@@samprstn damn I just looked up the price you’re right… well… digital it is lol unless he wants to shoot on an old school super 8 which is still fun
I actually thought it was a joke when I saw the price 😂
There are SOOO many quality working used super 8 cameras on eBay for a few hundred $ (I have a couple myself).
I own a beautiful Rollei SL83 that I've had since🤔 forever. So no thank you Kodak😅😂🤣😂🤣
The film ecosystem was, by far, the most compelling part of the Kodak Super 8 project. They talked about having a network of partners that would make digitizing your film easier and cheaper. Let's be honest: very few people will shoot Super 8 films to play them back on a projector. This is about getting that film effect into digital video. I shot two 50' cartridges six years ago, and it cost close to $200 to buy the film, get it processed, and scan it to 2K. If Kodak could ever get a hold of the processing ecosystem, the cost-to-shoot could drop, and shooting Super 8 could finally become more than an expensive or professionals-only activity. Even after announcing that the cost would be $400 to $750 for the camera in 2016, they promised that a less expensive model would come in 2017. When I got the email that I could finally get in line to buy the camera, I was shocked that it was over $5,500. I would love to hear the inside story of this project.
feels like an april fools joke that took 6 years to tell
😂🤣😂🤣
Your comment never gets old. I still fall over laughing when I read it. I come back to this video every now and again. I have my Rollei SL83 Super 8 camera.
So F U (forget you) Kodak!!!
MICRO USB IS CRIMINAL
At this price it is.
When you see the prices of 35mm photo film and now this, you really start to wonder if Kodak is not just trying to kill film once and for all…
It seems to me the key here is “limited edition.” Kodak is not pricing a tool. Kodak is pricing a luxury lifestyle accessory. It is kind of like the Leica business model.
Leica really doesn't do that though... neither are Leica (with exception) limited runs... nor are they luxury lifestyle... Unless there's somewhere cheap digital Rangefinder cameras? And even back in the days other interchangable lens Rangefinder were pretty much in line with Leica when it came to price....
@@LoFiAxolotlI think if you look at Leica’s marketing, it’s very much luxury lifestyle…from celebrity ambassadors to promotion through Bond movies. A Leica store shares more in common with a Rolex store than normal camera stores.
I'd sooner spend $5k on a Leica product than this.
Nah their main business is to rental houses
It was originally proposed to be a tool specifically for film students so that they could get experience using actual film and film cameras.
The last time I filmed on Super 8 I think the film was $13 and about the same for processing. Niche is the word.
I’ve just paid £420 for a Canon 1014 from eBay and I thought I was getting robbed at that price for a super 8 camera. Prior to that the most I paid was £100. The inherent Lo-if picture quality of super 8 isn’t going to change that much whether it’s a low end or high end camera. Shoot it with a £100 potato and be done!
There are scans of Super 8, particularly from the Logmar camera (which also developed this Kodak camera) which are very close to 16mm in appearance. Do a search on YT for the Logmar Super 8 camera, and also some of the examples on the Pro8mm from their own extended gate Super 8 shoots. The Kodak camera will be used by professionals, either via rental, or the many people who use S8 for the retro look to intercut with fashion videos, weddings etc. For those people, a vintage camera is not guaranteed to be reliable. I know people in production who are considering the Kodak camera simply because it helps with production insurance risk assessment.
Respectfully Simon Super 8 is a quarter the film area of 16mm and even less for Super 16. It’s nowhere near the quality of 16mm. Even if Christopher Nolan shot super 8 with a modified imax camera and Harry Potter scanned it with his magic scanning wand it wouldn’t be anywhere near the quality. I’ve seen really good scans from super 8 Beaulieu equipment and it looks great but it’s still lo-fi and a completely different look from 16mm. I’ve seen and shot both formats on decent equipment and potatoes. They’re not comparable. You shoot super 8 for the lo-if look and not because you can’t afford to shoot on 16mm because there isn’t as much of a difference in cost as you would imagine. You get a better lo-fi look from a potato than a Beaulieu. Just my opinion though. Have a good day wherever you are in the world.
@@SilverAndSensor I know very well what the stats are, and what dogma says the format can and cannot do. I never said anyone would use it as a substitute for 16mm BTW, so I'd appreciate it if we ditched the sarcasm. Since I use Super 8 myself, I've seen with my own scans what's possible now. As I said, take a look on RUclips for footage shot with the Logmar Super 8 camera, such as this one ruclips.net/video/3Nh9BTMWj9M/видео.html, and some of the other scans done by Pro8mm in their own extended format. Just as modern 4K scans of Super 16 resolve far more quality than they did even in the 2000s (the BBC didn't even rate Super 16 as being HD quality at the time), modern, stabilised scans of Super 8 can also now look extraordinarily good. It's all relative. Modern scans of 16mm have got a lot better, and modern scans of Super 8 have improved in parallel. Just that the newest scans and the format are capable of much more than a lot of people give it credit for.
@@simonwyndham Wow, that Logmar footage does look like 16mm. Way better than any 8mm footage I've seen.
Kodak saw what Leica did with the M6 and thought they could get away with it.
They should make a 16mm or 35 mm version and price that at $5300
Perhaps. It seems to me like the costs got out of hand, and now they need to correct. Eight years of RND can't be cheap. However, it's still massively overpriced, IMO.
How do you figure, when a Pro8mm Classic with a Max8 gate is $3500, without crystal sync, without a digital viewfinder, and without Kodak manufacturing and warranty. HBO used them for Winning Time. Rental houses rent them for $450 a day. 8mm is still in demand for things like music videos, art films, weddings, etc. Plenty of people will buy this, it is reasonably priced for what it is, it just isn't for most people.@@JoshDiazDOP
Thank you Brother. I was on the list and received a notification from B&H saying, “As an early enlistee you’re receiving this email letting you know that your camera is ready for order. Failure to do so before Wednesday 19th June, (two days from now) will result in you losing your spot!”
After seeing this review, you’ve just saved me $5,500!!
Thanks again for the dose of reality.
Omg literally in the same exact boat! Got my email this morning! Was thinking I would buy to test and return if it’s not great but it feels like it wouldn’t even be worth the test 😅
this is built and marketed as a cine super8 camera through and through. a high end cine super8 camera kind of makes sense in the sense that super8 cameras are being used as an niche artistic choice nowadays. most productions will just rent these, as they do with arris, lenses and the like.
What really gets me is that this expensive camera is plastic. 🤔😳🤨Plastic! Really Kodak, freakin no way. Come on this is a joke right?
The micro USB 😂😂😂
Feels like a missed opportunity. Having shot on my 1960s Super 8 for the past 3 years, I'd love to have a go on a modern Super 8, but not for that price. $2000 would be my limit, so I guess I'll just keep shooting on my old camera, nothing lost, nothing gained.
It's definitely a missed opportunity. This camera is a threat only to two other cameras, Pro8mm's Classic, and Logmar's now-discontinued one, of which this is a distant cousin. The only advantage it has over the Pro8mm cam is that the supply of Beaulieu bodies is drying up, so Pro8mm's bound to start jacking up the price one day.
It's a good thing Kodak's motion picture film operations are strong; they'll certainly soften the financial blow this boondoggle will cost them.
It’s gotta be designed as a specialty camera for a production company that makes music videos and through a a few shots of “real film” in a music video
I am pretty convinced that this is a good thing. This Camera is for the hypebeasts. People that dont care about the money, they want that thing. I think the reason this exists is because Kodaks priority is to survive and continue to produce film. But they have been losing money left and right since they came back. This is why film prices have spiked during the last years. They are not a profitable company. Every single one of those cameras that will be sold will have a crazy high profit margin. Is the price high? Of course, it's ridiculous. But I can really imagine this product only exists to keep their unprofitable film business afloat. And if that is the case and it works, I have no problem with it at all.
But mixing the LCD, which is a super cool idea, with micro usb...thats just too much.
They should have made it a high quality camera with top of the line specs. The design is great. But if it feels cheap, that would break the concept.
Making money of off the film won't work. They are trying. Look at their prices, they raised them so much to become profitable. They went bankrupt almost twice now trying to make their money by selling film. It does not work in the digital era. I guess this is part of their solution for this problem. And I think it might just work. Look at A24, a Producer House in Hollywood that still makes midbudget, artsy, non-blockbuster movies in 2023. And they keep (or at least used to keep) themselves afloat by selling merchandise. This merchandise is not as ridiculously expensive as this camera, but I think it's a similar concept. If Kodak continues to feed into this very market, that is until now only filled by pixii and leica (with the difference that those cameras are actually great), that might just work for them.
I know it's a far fetched take, especially at this ridiculous price, 3000 would've been better for a well produced camera, but I think its a possibility.
Super 8 mm used to be a perfect format for home movies. Professional films were always shot on 16 or 35 mm film.
Releasing an amateur camera that costs more than 3 BlackMagic Ursas - which have been used professionally - is ridiculous.
I reserved my spot for it 3 years ago, now seeing they raised the price really sucks
I appreciate their venture back into more advanced cameras. Maybe their R&D will come down to a product for the masses.
Limited edition ? Do they just sell the prototypes to get rid of them ?
🤔(goes to speak)uhh...
If this camera had an automatic develop of the film and an automatic digitalization of the negative into cine dng, that would justify the price,. But i know that is not the case, i think
A compromise could’ve been to make it crystal sync and audio recording only and no digital video recording.
The sync sound capabilities would’ve been a good selling point especially if they had priced it low.
The things you said in this video instantly make me realise this camera isn’t marketed to you or for you.
‘Retro style film camera’
‘Film style video camera’
‘Nobody has been developing it other than kodak’ There have been other companies trying to make a super 8 camera, logmar most recently from whom kodak bought this concept from for the new camera.
‘Unique to view your film on an lcd’ Every 16mm 35mm and 65mm camera used in a professional environment will have a video tap for viewing digitally.
‘you can only record audio at the lower frame rates’ The fact that you can even record any internally digitally recorded audio on a film camera is pretty much a 1 of a kind. Not to mention it’s crystal sync for sync sound which is also a professional feature almost no super 8 cameras have.
‘3 minutes at 18fps’ 3.5 minutes at 18 and the camera isn’t made to shoot interviews obviously.
‘shooting film for the film aesthetic’ 🤨
‘super 8 was birthed in a need to save money’ No it wasn’t it was created as an easy to use format, no home movie was going to be shot on 35mm. Also it kodaks super 8 films were never cheapest. So if you started with super 8 on a budget you likely weren’t shooting kodak film.
‘when 35mm got too expensive people went to 16mm and down to 8’ again, no they didn’t, most people who shot 8mm never shot 35 or even 16.
‘it prices everyone out of buying the camera’ It prices out people who want to ‘try out the film aesthetic’ sure but it’s not made for that type of person. It has professional features for people wanting to shoot low budget music videos or indie shorts.
‘kodak should’ve gone the direction of printer makers’ nice idea now all the film would be even more expensive because you can’t differentiate super 8 for the kodak camera and super 8 for other consumers.
‘the product they’ve been subsiding on’ they make almost an irrelevant amount of income from their film business, their earnings report confirmed that. In fact that subsidise their film business with their other businesses.
‘they could’ve given us a more expensive system to invest in down the line’ This IS the expensive system. it’s got professional features, if you want to experiment, buy that old super 8 camera off ebay. But if you want one that looks good and you can put modern lenses on and sync sound with, you have to buy this.
‘you can grab any number of film cameras’ literally my point previously.
‘it has micro usb’ yeah fair enough the design is the same from 2017 but they should and might have to change it to usb c before selling in the eu
‘i don’t see very many people buying them’ i can assure you this will be sold out pretty quick, just like the logmar professional super 8 camera that now costs over 10k.
‘indulge in the novelty’ sure there will be some collectors, but this is for schools, rental houses, indie film makers, music video shooters etc.
‘the price is just so unhinged’ yes, it’s expensive, but it’s not unhinged for a limited production camera. Cameras can only be cheap if you build 100k units. this isn’t that, it’s custom built, sourcing all those parts in small quantities, paying the labour to assembly it not on a production line, not to mention the huge amount of r&d on an item that isn’t mass market. Capitalism and consumerism has caused the idea that everything has to be cheap, this just cannot be priced any longer at the expected 700$ or 2500$ because of the costs associated with it.
‘that kodak has to fix’ they literally do not, they will sell them all at this price to people who value what they’ve made.
I won’t be buying it, but that’s also partly for other reasons than the price, but it’s seemingly not for people like you anyway, so it just joining in the bashing of a project just because you don’t see the benefits of the product seems a bit out of touch.
the most informative, in touch, unbiased comment. instead of people just bashing due to price point people should recognize & analyze why it costs that much.
At this price an independent custom shop could undercut them.
Actually the most cost (and eco) effective means would probably be to restomod old super 8 cams. Which would have the benefit of more nostalgia. Having an actual metal device from the 1960s in your hands.
The $5,500 limited edition price seemed like an "influencer" price to me, like some out-of-touch marketing exec thought he could get Marquez Brownlee to spend that for first dibs on the camera. Except young people generally don't care about film because it's not accessible or affordable anymore.
The problem with suggesting that Kodak should have gone with the printer business model here is that the 8 mm film is already not cheap.
Thanks for this. I shoot super 8 and would LOVE to have a NEW camera. It's tough trying to keep old cameras in working order. But $5,500 is too much for a fairly simple camera.
What camera do you have? I still use my Rollei SL83 thank you very much and as in love with it now like I was when I first got it all those years back.
@@Headintodreams I am glad to hear that you are happy with your Rollei. I have 3 working cameras, but my main one is a Canon Auto Zoom 814. It has a few problems though and I am increasing relying on my Chinon 213PXL; it never fails me.
When I first heard Kodak was making a Super 8 I was very excited. Then I heard the price and was like🤨🤔😳🤬 wait, what? They are asking how much?!!!!
Lomography should enter the super 8 market, making it more accessible for the average consumer, potentially reaching a sub $300 mark.
You can get a second hand Arriflex SR camera for close to $6K. That is a sync-sound capable, production-ready, workhorse 16mm film camera for around the same price as an 8mm hipster toy.
If Kodak went the route of the Instax cameras, with the bubbly, matte white plastic aesthetic for the camera, and marketed to tiktok polaroid crowd they would have a hit
People aren't moving back to film as a collective trend for all the practical reasons mentioned. Kodak has produced a limited edition 8mm throwback option for those who want it. They aren't looking to hit the market and sellproduct in droves. It's obvious if one isn't looking at this through a consumerist fast food lens of "this pricing is crazy Kodak, you aren't going to sell millions of these"... This is for those who have money to burn but also professionals. Vloggers, not so much. This camera is a creative tool for professionals and those who want to deep dive into an essentially lost medium.
Then what’s the electronics and sound recording about ? That wasn’t there in the old days and nothing to do with the medium. Much of the price must be going towards new things not lost things.
No arguing that it's pricey. I think the reason is, they did the math and realised they'd messed up. I think you are at risk of underestimating just how hard it is to make a Super 8 camera that's of reasonable quality. Yes, in days gone by, there were mass-market cheap cameras, but they had the advantage of exactly that, mass market economy of scale. The design of the Kodak Super 8 cartridge is both genius and hugely flawed. Camera makers come up against a quality brick wall caused by the pressure plate behind the film. Minute variations in the pressure, smoothness, coating quality of the film, heat, humidity, film tension etc can cause serious image stability issues or even stop the film from advancing. Couple this with the tiny frame size that amplifies the slightest gate weave, pull-down inconsistency and focus breathing and you have a major engineering challenge.
But, but, I hear everyone calling, they used to make millions of 8mm cameras?! Yep, but the manufacturing capability isn't just sitting there dormant, if has to be built and tested and honed. When this has to be done for a small market, that cost per unit becomes considerable. Then factor in the cost of aftermarket support, and profit margin (yep, because there is no proven market precedent for this, so a loss-leader gamble would be madness for an already precarious company) and you soon realise how it would be quite easy to get to a figure like this.
It may well be a self-defeating folly because of the cost too. It looks cheap, because I guess it's been designed to make use of manufacturing techniques that have lower entry costs. Making complex injection mouldings in alloy or high-grade plastics takes serious money tooling which makes no sense for low volumes.
But, the price doesn't look so massive if you consider a commercial shoot where your 40 year old camera fails, you shoot with your B camera and then find the footage is unusable and have to re-shoot. That alone could pay for this camera many times over. I had two Nikon R10s fail and that in itself was over £1000 in second hand cameras down the pan, unfixable. So, as a professional tool, if it's reliable, it's probably worth it. It has a monitor and tap out and is xtal sync, so that sets it apart from anything out there.
But what professional will add this to the pipeline, perhaps Christopher Nolan. But if I'm producing and the Director or DP says to me we need to purchase this for a nostalgic look for our flashback, I'd say there are post solutions to "degrade" the image that will read as 8mm film. And, save us money.
Good analysis
HBO literally just filmed Winning Time using a bunch of Pro8mm Classic Max 8 Cameras. Which retail for $3500 each. And don't have crystal sync, or digital viewfinder tap, you can pay them to add crystal sync, and then you end up paying more than this camera. You can also rent one, for $450 a day. There is a market for these. Rental houses, fine arts schools, movie studios, etc will all want them. People still want Super8 for things like music videos or certain "artsy" ads, or actual fine art, because of the look. And if you want that look, in a brand new manufacturer warranted open it up out of the box and it has it all and also comes from major manufacturer Kodak, this is a normal price. @@JeffersonDonald
@@tenfingerstentoes Still believe it's extreme niche and that replicating the look can be done in post. I'm of the mindset that just because you can doesn't mean you should. We're you involved in the decision making for the HBO project? What were the considerations for the artistic look vs. costs?
No I was not involved in the project. For a movie studio $5500 for a camera is nothing, they would buy 10 of them, its who even cares money. These are places that pay $450,000 for a set of anamorphic lenses for cinema cameras that also cost multiples of this camera. At $5500, these are totally reasonable for wedding videographers who cater to an artsy/nostalgia sort of client base. For what you can charge filming a wedding on super 8, and with the quality you can produce with the advanced features, it will pay for itself in a couple of weddings. It CERTAINLY is a niche product, but that doesn't make it dumb or bad. It means it's not for most people, and I think this is where the confusion is for so many people on this. They think of 8mm as just "that old thing you found in a closet and ran 1 cartridge through for a laugh a couple years ago", but there is more to it than that. @@JeffersonDonald
Interested in seeing a sizzle reel of everyone laughing in the salesman's face whenever this camera gets unveiled at conventions and conferences.
🤔 (thinks to self)😅😂😂🤣😂🤣😂😂this comment is gold!!!
Surely, you can just buy an older secondhand Super8 camera from the 70s or 80s that's still in excellent usable condition and use that with the new Kodak Super8 cartridges? I might give that a shot, especially since they'll digitize the film as part of developing it.
A simple point and shoot or slr film camera would do so much better sales and/or pr wise. It’ll be hard to compete with the current digital powerhouses. It’s sad that if this fails they spent another lump of r&d without gaining anything from it. I hope they can keep afloat and keep moving ahead with new products if this doesn’t take off.
i mean they could release an affordable version of this... i really want to get into 8mm but its too expensivw
This will look great on a shelf next to your Hasselblad Lunar and Juicero machine!
They are building a new infrastructure for modern motion film cameras for consumers. I expected this because they are getting their footing for this lane hopefully other companies will follow and we see a competitive market with lower prices. With all that being said I’m not paying 5k lmao someone will tho!
Great video = ). btw, I like the typeface you used around 0:28. What is the name of it?
Alverata Black
Personally I think the price is fair. A rebuilt/refurbished Super 8 cam from Pro 8mm is about three thousand and while it has some of these features it doesn’t include sound sync and digital view screens etc. I definitely still want one.
It's for pros and rental houses surely? It seems designed to fit in a workflow where you'd be using it alongside Red or Arri digital cameras. Super8 B-roll?
🤔(thinks to self) hmmm...
Sometimes I think things like this are only really priced for people who have money to burn, who want to show off that they've got money to burn in a really niche way! 🤔
I honestly thought we were never going to see this thing, and then got excited when it showed up. I was concerned about "limited edition" and then frankly just disappointed when I saw the price. Sure some lenses in my 2024 budget cost more than this, but when Pro8mm makes 8mm cinema cameras for less than half the cost, and they're really only missing the digital flippy screen? It's kinda ridiculous.
Disconnected from reality is right. Even ignoring the cost of this camera, the price of super8 film seems prohibitive for people outside of an extremely narrow niche of people shooting video on film.
I agree I’m 72 love to try 8mm again but price ridiculous
I agree on the pricing being absolutely unhinged. Especially considering the sale of a 8mm camera would help them sell film stock
The Leica M11 sells for $9000, and their M6 film camera re-make retails for $5700. As a special edition, limited quantity item, Kodak’s new S8 camera isn’t completely out of line with niche still film offerings.
BTW, 35mm movie film was not a consumer format. And movie cameras did eventually get video assist, the invention of which is usually credited to actor Jerry Lewis, so this is not the first movie camera to have a screen.
Build quality of leica cameras and this plastic Kodak thing are miles apart. Leica builds high quality cameras for a price.
A Leica M6 is built extremely well, that thing is a tank. Yes the Leica is excessively expensive but at least it justifies its cost. Not to mention 35mm film is a professional film stock and can be used in that sense, there are wedding photographers out there shooting on Leica film cameras. Super 8 is a budget home video format and excluding novelty shooting for stylised videos like music videos, it doesn't have a utility in the professional world, to which is priced at. I mean its made of plastic, likely isn't weather sealed in anyway, charges with a bloody usb-b slot. It's a joke. It would be justifiable at $1000 as a niche product but $5495, nah.
@@jockslifeatliftvideoproduc8528 I know a thing or two about Leicas, I have six. Maybe I should have used my Contax 645 as an example; it has a polycarbonate/plastic body as do the pricey Mamiya 7s, both of them medium format film cameras that go for a fair chunk of change, and they're used. Personally, I don't like S8 enough to put out this kind of cash for new machine in that format, but I'm sure there will be quite a few who'll jump on this. And the majority who won't. Me, I'll stick to my 16mm Bolex Rex-3 and Eclair.
It's likely just not to sell in high volume and become a collectors item, so what you pay now doesn't matter. As long as you take care of it, its value will go up.
It's for collectors and actual film maker's.
I have two old Argus cameras from the late 60's and they both still work and have good build quality even by today's standards
Buy a Nizo a truly beautiful 8mm camera with German glass for a couple of 100 bucks. Save a fuck ton for film.
If it can't do single frame, is it really a movie camera? Also, it looks like a 3D printed Kickstarter!
The insane part is that you can buy a Sony FX3 - you know, the camera they used to shoot most of The Creator on - and a kit lens for the price of this Super 8 camera and have a bit of change left over. You had really better love the Super 8 aesthetic to buy this thing!
I agree.
even if you liked Super 8, you can literally pay for and refurbish the highest possible end Super 8 consumer bodies from eg. Canon _and_ multiple lenses and like 20 boxes of film for the cost of 5,500$
it literally makes zero sense to pick this one up outside of the shiny new box and the kodak brand name. Could argue for internal crystal sync but I'm not quite sure if 5,500$ justifies that
just putting it out there 7:27 favorite part of the video!!
😅
I hear orders are shipping April 1.
I wouldn't be surprised. B&H has the camera on their website, but it's not ready for pre-order.
I’m really curious to find out if any of these have been placed on the pre-order list. Other than someone with endless resources ($$) buying one to be able to say they did, I can’t think of anyone who would order one. I’m going to try to find out about their sales numbers.
I can't wait to see a review of a production unit.
Most old super 8s aren't crystal sync 24fps and definitely don't give you HDMI out or a built in video tap. C-mount is highly adaptable. As a long time film shooter I'm pretty excited about this camera. It'd be cool to throw this thing on a drone or a modern gimbal. Price is high and I wish it was S16 but I still want one and don't really care about the money.
I agree. There is a lot to be excited about feature wise. Maybe when I see it in the field, I'll change my tune. Until then, I'm concerned about the price.
You can get an Arri SR3 or a Bolex EBM with a full set of decent prime glass for $5K~!
if it was 16mm or super 16mm this would be an interesting choice to shoot on. Super 8 looks like the entire esthetic could be done with carful lens choices from a modern digital camera and a the right amount of post production.
Perhaps, yes. Waiting to see the camera out in the wild.
It's meant for industry. You're supposed to rent it from a production house, shoot your thing, and return it. I'm pretty sure that is why it has the features it does.
I remember I was looking forward to filming with this camera 5 years ago. Using my Sony F3 Cinealta for 1/5 of the price.
Get a Beaulieu super 8 or just go 16mm and get a high end bolex or a cheap aaton for that price....my goodness
For that price you can get an early 2000's mini cooper.
Also seems like something a certain Film Uni would give a new student and tack on 15k to the tuition.
They know the market is blowing up for film movie cameras seeing a 16mm camera like this brand new would be 10k. Kodak is a head of the curve. The price is right. It’ll sell out just watch.
Being limited edition and the first camera from Kodak in this format, I have no doubt it will sell. I hope they can get the tech price down in the future.
Most people who still shoot super8 in any kind of quantity is loaded anyway, so cater to them. the demand is low, price is high. we have dirt cheap working 8mm cams already, and almost no-one shoots it because the cost of film and development is very high.
I think still film photography and motion film photography are very different beasts, and what happens with the market with one doesn't necessarily translate to the other.
Okay so I am finding myself wanting to get back into film photography. I am curious to see if Kodak still has anything to do with said topic. So I go to their website and lo and behold not only do they still have their feet in at least the shallow end they are also reintroducing super 8 to the mix as well wow I say to myself that's amazing I love that idea. I wonder how much this will cost if I was interested in it I say to myself. Drum roll please. A mere $5,500 you say? And a free cleaning cloth thrown in? Sign me up! Sarcastic eye roll coming in 3...2...1...
I wanted to buy one of these when they first announced it but at this price you can forget it. I have 3 super 8 cameras that work just fine, I'll stick with them.
I remember so well when in 1985 my brother and me bought a Kodak Super8 camera, new, in a price of $5,000 Chilean Pesos, today it would be around $50,000 it is USD50. Super8 films were obsolet in 1985, Camcorder was the new on videocameras. Kodak cartridge 50ft and Agfachrome cartridge were available only, but Agfa hade proccess of develope free, one month of delay, due they sent to Germany labs.
_Greetings from Santiago Chile SouthAmerica._
I would live to see Blackmagic Design make an affirdable film camera
Personally I wish some company would reverse engineer a Beaulieu 7008. With a wider gate 16 X 9 and be able to attach a 200 foot magazine.
I got the email to buy (been on the list forever)... I say the price and was like... "WAHHHHHH?????" It's absurd. I get it is a bespoke thing, but that price is ... just lunacy.
I was really excited for this, and I thought it was going to be around $800. But, holy moly and a tea cup, if anyone actually pays $5.5k for it in this economy they should be ashamed of themselves.
I think they would have gotten so many people into film cameras if they made it more affordable. Film is a stylistic choice that’s why they price it so highly but many people don’t get into film exactly because of how expensive it is.
What´s the problem with micro USB? Serious question.
You could get a C70 body or an R5C with a 24-70 f/2.8 for that price. I know you get the camera for the aesthetic, but still
This camera is developed with Logmar, who made a fancier Super 8 camera at the same price. This camera cannot handle old sound or 200-ft Super 8 cartridges, both of which you can still find on eBay and the like to shoot and experiment with, but is the first Kodak Super 8 where you can change the lens. Their Supermatic and Ektasound cameras could handle sound cartridges and had an I interesting design, but save their early M2 and M4 super 8 cameras, they have insides that disintegrate eventually and are unfixable. They also were supposed to develop your negative film that you shot with this camera and put it on The Cloud, but maybe they changed their mind. Many sound cameras have at least as many features and so do some of ht better silent ones. You can get a solid, working Super 8 camera that does 24fps sound sped at around $35.00 if you know how to look for them, like avoiding 'not tested' models and researching any one you intend to buy on line or in a store.
I could understand the price if this was a 35mm or even a 16mm camera, but super8? My Iphone's super 8 app takes better images.
The pricing makes sense, given that it’s the first of its kind. Just think of it as a Halo product.
Think I'll be keeping my Beaulieu 4008zm-ii. If nothing else, it looks so much cooler than Kodak's lunchbox.
if it was 16mm, would be dope. 8mm with that price point is just such a narrow market I'm assuming.
Is the camera pin registered? Does it have a rotating mirror to go to the video sensor instead of a prism?
How close can you get to film with digital?
I get the appeal of film, but with AI I wouldn't be surprised if we could get awfully close in a few years.
I have a video on my channel testing this exact topic! Search Dehancer.
When are people going to wake up to the fact that Kodak is not a very good company. They only make one fantastic product that is available in a variety of flavors… film. And they’re even screwing up the business model of that one. With the resurgence of interest in film photography during the past 7 years, they have decided to kill the goose who laid golden egg by overcharging those new customers. Many early adopters of the current film revival are already switching to vintage digital cameras for some of their photography to mitigate the cost of shooting film. Kodak is run by idiots.
i hate the fact that the price has gone up so much i have always shot on film i never got into Digital when it came out. i remember back when film was cheap now i try to take photos that matter some shops charge alot more than others and i don't know why they are charging so much in some places the only thing that comes to mind is Inflation
Looks Great, but with the amount of footage I shoot, It's still cheaper to use my vintage Super 8 cameras and digitize it. Come on Kodak.. If you make this affordable, It would start a new Super 8 film revalution. Vinyl Came back, so can Super 8.
When I first heard about this camera years ago, I thought, WHY?
Accounting for inflation, $5k isn't far off what a S8 camera would have cost back in its heyday. A lot of people here totally misunderstanding this camera. Firstly, it's not going to be mass produced. It's only a limited run, with some of these likely going to rental. Secondly, Super 8 is being used a lot for the retro look on everything from fashion shoots to wedding videographers who specialise in producing Super 8mm wedding memories. For these types of people who are using the camera for professional application, the $5k price tag will pay for itself quickly. So, why buy this when you can get a vintage camera? Simple. The new Kodak camera ensures reliability, which is bloody important when it comes to production insurance, as well as giving much easier focusing via the LCD display and separate synced audio recording to an onboard SD card. BTW, the initial camera wasn't developed by Kodak, but by Logmar, which produced its own brand new Super 8mm camera a few years back and sold it for double the price of the Kodak branded camera. Logmar is also in the process of developing another new Super 8 camera, and I can guarantee you that it won't be sold for less than this one.
The way I see this is that there is no such thing as "accessible" 8 mm nowadays. The cost of film + processing alone is prohibitively expensive for amateurs or hobbyists. 80-100 USD for 2-3 minutes of footage? No thanks. Even if the camera was gifted to me, I wouldn't be tempted to such an investment. Especially when there are digital emulations that are good enough if you just want to get a retro effect. Maybe professional film makers would be interested in this but I don't know if those wouldn't have been much happier with 16 mm format...
As someone who started using Super 8, back in 1973, this is surely a short-lived and needlessly expensive gimmick! The sound off a cine film - by today's standard - is poor, to say the least. (Mono sound).
I moved onto a Canon XF 405 (stereo), which has slots for two SD cards. I film then edit at 3840x2160 resolution, with picture brighter than any cine projector. The longest time I have to wait is for a movie edit to render as it comes onto my pc.
Love the camera. Do not love the price. At a push I would consider buying one at a max price of $2K. Although, I don’t think it should be priced any higher than $1.5K
I'm going to try and find this camera in the wild. I'd really like to look it over.
I’m still not entirely sure why it’s priced like this. An Arriflex isn’t that much more expensive an will be an absolutely much more enticing experience. Kodak keeps fumbling the opportunity to hit the consumer/prosumer market. The film community is slowly rebuilding and the only people taking advantage are third parties and now surprisingly Ilford’s parent company Harman is going into color film. Kodak sells film well, but they need to invest in platforms… that are AFFORDABLE.
Sure, you can get a used Arriflex for around $5k. Then you have to buy all the film to fill a 400ft mag or two, manually thread it all through in a darkened room after you've meticulously cleaned the gate, manually expose everything etc, plus the additional development costs. Hardly the spontaneity and portability that Super 8 offers. Two totally different types of market and user. When you account for inflation, $5k is close to what a new Super 8 camera cost people back in its heyday. If you took the Arriflex that you mention, and imagine a company making a newly designed one, you can bet it would be sold for $50k or more. Even a used S16 Arri 416 still goes for nearly $80k. If you're one of the many wedding people who are shooting Super 8 weddings now, the $5k price tag for the new Kodak camera will make its money back in a couple of jobs, and you have the reassurance that it'll be a reliable camera. Something you can't guarantee with a vintage camera.
@@simonwyndham you could also get a beaulieu 4008 for 10x less and equip it with a video tap. that camera has lasted for 60 years and may never go obsolete, I doubt this one will last that long.
Separate issue but what I could never fathom is why Kodak (or somebody) has yet to create a new cartridge mag for professional 35mm and 16mm film. Imagine never having to use a changing bag to load film. Never understood why cartridge tech didn't carry over from consumer Super 8 (and at one point 16mm) to 35.
There’s always the other way to look at things. If you begin with the price, you can ask what you get for it and that’s where this camera crumbles. No critical focusing is possible. No exposure times are known (or the shutter opening angle). No service will be offered, well, a true good repair service. No spare parts will be available. No points are given on how the product should be taken care of by the owner. You are completely right, the Kodak people have lost the ground. The 1940 Double-Eight magazine is still superior to the Super-8 cartridge because you can flip it over, run film the other direction, flip it back, and superimpose, for example. In doing so you don’t lose one frame, the 8-mm. magazine has an internal light cover which is closed at the opening of the camera door. To have a new and very expensive camera built on the base of the BAD Super-8 cartridge is the main mistake. Why not Single-8? That is an internationally standardised system and it is the better one. Or the 200-ft. cartridge Kodak once sold. Or a Double-Super-8 model. All Super-8 film is DS-8 for a moment when it leaves the perforator. The web is slit to 16 mm, then perforated, then cut to 8 mm, then cut to length.
Screw it. Get an old Bolex 155 or 160 Macrozoom. Done. Also, 50 feet is 3 min and 20 seconds at 18 fps, and 2 mins 40 seconds at 24 fps. (Maybe Guy Maddin will use this.)
Pretty much a Komodo or FX6 body - I'd rather save up and spend £12k for an Aaton XTR
Is there going to be a projector????
Probably not. There's only two projectable Super-8 stocks: Ektachrome 100D and Tri-X.
I was really into film photography back then and I was really happy to hear about that camera, but it's freaking expensive for what is a camera that shoots nostalgia quality videos.
700$ is okay, I would pay that much for some nostalgia videos, but this is expensive as fuck.
This is a hard no. I've been shooting Fujifilm cameras since 2013 and I can shoot film looking footage right out of camera.
Impressive technology. Not sure who it’s for. Would be interested in an analogue only version.
I have to say, anyone who thinks this should be a cheap camera clearly doesn’t get the target audience. If this camera was $500 I seriously doubt it would move more units in any significant way. Because the film and development is so costly no one is using this unless they really need it. Which means this a rental. It’s a rental and you shoot like 5 mags for your Wonder Years / Succession show open style motif and you’re done. So it will make sense for rental houses to own it and not operators. There’s No way anyone except for super nerd users are going to take this on vacation or use this for their Insta or try to shoot any substantial amount of a film on. So it’s a niche product for niche use and no surprise that it’s going to sell for a niche price.
With that price I would guess they want to go out of business again. Also if they are processing super 8 again people will just use old cameras. Much cheaper.