I’m hoping one of you see this as I’ve yet to hear anything from any Lore RUclipsr, there is this theory on Reddit gaining traction that Marika/Radagon seduced the GEQ. If you look at the statues of the DLC, the headless ones, they line up with the Rune of Death which is intrinsically tied to GEQ. Same with Fire and Snakes the two most heretical things to the Erdtree and the Golden Order. What is more heretical than a previous order? Many in Rome hated their own Greek origins such as Catou. The Seduction and The Betrayal, who better to seduce than the leader of the order you wish to ruin? Messmer and Melina have their left eyes sealed. Both potentially had Heterochromia one golden eye and another Gloam. The spiral of the Godslayers sword, the Snake like appearance of the Godskin, a serpent god that wields flame. What do you all think?
I believe the suduction and betrayal was of Godfrey as his culture seems like that of a warlord born from the hornsent civilization, the man who slew the storm lion sarosh and enherited his rule. the two of them coming tother like Miquell and radahn as a symbol of his right to rule. marika seduced him to gain power and build a new empire togther that started out on good terms with the hornsent. but once she was done with him and it was time to scrub away the old ways and purge the unclean she banished him, his soldiers and then radagon came back to lyndell after some time and Messmer started his cursade. as for the golden string marika grabs in the trailer. I believe thats supposed to be the hair of one of her family members, perhaps her grandmother. shoved into the jars. you can see the same chains and jewelery as the innards women near the bottom of the sceen in that shot. idk if the grandmother tree we find is supposed to literllaly be her corpse or just an effigy.
Diving into the lore in the dlc a fair bit. With the Shamans fusing together from pussing wounds and made to fit inside a jar etc., I had a thought. Do you think that the Shamans were turned into jars to symbolize the Crucible, were all life once blended together? We learn that the Hornsent were religious zealots. I haven't heard or read from anyone with a similar idea. What do you think? Crucibles used to be made out of clay, exclusively, in our own history.
Marika is the spirit tuner Hewg is indebted to. With the Shamans being Shrine Maidens in japanese, who do spirit rituals, I bet Marika met/saved Hewg when she was taken to Bonny village and saved him from being jarred. Years later heres Roderika who's a spitting image of young Marika, Roderika herself being a young blonde haired exiled nobile from another land, I bet she's a numen.
We also find Roderika in despair thanks to Godrick grafting her friends, which is a similar process to how they make the jars in the Land of Shadow. Sure, she could probably be bummed out just due to your regular grafting but maybe it's basically a PTSD response. @@arch_imedes7108
Regarding radahn being charmed - at the start of p2 he starts glowing red, almost like the true radan is waking up. Then miquella appears and he instantly begins to glow gold again - before miquella literally attaches to his back above him, almost like he is a marionette. Its not necessarily a smoking gun and could be explained as just a cool visual for the fight - but an interesting detail to consider
@@lordpen7126 Could have been a three phase fight... go into "lord of blood mode" around 66%, and then Miquella comes in around at 40% or so, then we'd have less of that insane phase 2.
Serosh was to suppress Godfrey's natural blood lust and will for combat. Miquella could be doing a very similar thing for radahn who also lives for combat
That actually makes a whole lot of sense. That red could maybe also be mohg's body rebelling. It is odd that the only time we see that red aura it gets snuffed out by Miquella.
@@Eladelia It could work like Terraria's expert and master modes where the extra talisman is only effective while you're in the DLC area. Have the item that unlocks it be "Phantom Talisman Pouch" or whatever to signify it works differently.
This would make an enormous, balance-damaging difference to the game. An extra slot isn't just one isolated bonus, it potentially changes how builds work and it's just too strong compared to the other additions they were evidently comfortable with
I interpreted miquella and redahns promise, as another example of miyazakis idea of "heroic traits" being corrupted with the demigods. That miquellas heroic trait is innocence, and his flaw is naivety. He naively asked redahn to be his consort at a young age, and radahn requested of him something he considered impossible, maybe his defeat, or when the "eternal" golden order dies, or something-- and miquella took it to heart and obsessed over it and did unimaginable things to achieve it.
That's possible, but if so it's just an argument that Radahn is someone who's going around making vows in bad faith in a world where turtle pope tells us clearly that vows are precious and not to be toyed with. That doesn't really reflect better on Radahn.
@@Eladelia If it puts the character in a good light, it's probably not true. This is the core assumption for all of the most powerful characters, because only powerless characters get to be truly good (like Boc). Radahn being a baddie who went around lying to other powerful characters to mess with their plans and advance his own agenda is a very solid theory. It would also explain why Malenia attacks him.
It was never Godwyn. We saw in the base game that anything involving Godwyn failed. That's the whole point of Miquella's curse: Nascence. Nothing he does or attempts can come to fruition or completeness.
And that's why Radahn being Miquella's promised consort doesn't make any sense. Miquella's plan to obtain godhood worked out flawlessly, he's only defeated in the end because the Tarnished was just literally stronger than a god and the strongest demigod working together. What would have made infinitely more sense is if Radahn was plan B, and that not only was Godwyn Miquella's promised consort, but Radahn being obsessed with the golden lineage and honorable death, was disgusted my Miquella's attemps to resurrect Goldwyn and haulted the stars to stop the solar eclipse. With Radahn's recent death, and Mogh's body on hand, Miquella crually enslaved his enemy causing him to become everything he hates. It's the kind of poetic tragedy fromsoft loves to have in their stories, and wouldn't need any alteration to the gameplay machanics, just some item descriptions altered.
@@SIRslipperyasp91 Miquella’s plan worked out AFTER he divested himself of his body. He has to rid himself of the curse for it to work but by that time Godwyn was good and dead. Godwyn caring for Miquella doesn’t automatically make him the best candidate. And the night of the black knives proved that. Radahn was always stronger but also kind. Miquella needed both.
What stuck out to me was Freyja mentioning Jerren not being happy with Radahn's rebirth. I do not it is rebirth specifically that Jerren would object to, but the act of putting one soul into a different body, much like how we put Sellen's "soul" into another body. He also swore an oath of "honorable death" with Radahn (per his set) and he objected to the use of primeval glinstone hearts to overtake the bodies of other people. He is also someone obsessed with stars and destiny. Another point: Miyazaki has stated in an interview that Radahn has a hard time accepting change, which is likely why he holds the stars in stasis. He was the "god of war" in vers 1.00 and an age of brainwashed passivity would have disgusted him.
@@NoahKunin it has been a while, but I remember the interview referencing Leonard specifically and Radahn's stubbornness in refusing to give up his steed despite growing too large for him.
Maybe Radahn’s part of the vow was “I’ll be your lord when I’m cold in the ground.” Basically saying that he doesn’t want to be his lord, but Miquella took that vow literally.
I don't think so. Miquella says "if WE honor OUR part of the vow, promise youll be my escort" which to me implies Radhan was not part of the "we" and never made any vows. I'm not sure who the "we" is
Lorewise, it makes very little sense for Radahn to have consented to the permanent destruction of his homeland (he is trying his best to protect Selia from the celestial threat even in the zombified state he's been reduced to by that point in the story). Furthermore, Malenia's provocative whispering into his ear just before unleashing the Scarlet Flower on Caelid seems more like a cruel taunt than a calculated move in a larger scheme between the two parties.
I don’t t think he had any idea that malenia would throw away her dignity in a desperate measure to defeat him on behalf of her brother. I’m not sure that anyone but miquella and malenia herself where aware of the full extent of her power in regards to the rot sealed inside her.
@@W_W-f8y Seems clear to me what he consented was a battle, thats very in character. But he wouldnt have thought the outcome to be this destructive. In the same way he likely never thought hed be a corpse eating rotting zombie at the end of his days.
@@_Cerb_ Why didn't they fight in a remote location or controlled environment where their superpowers wouldn't pose a risk to others if that's the case? I really can't picture Radahn agreeing to be revived into someone else's body whatever the case, it doesn't seem in character for him at all
@user-gh6sn3wd7v Agreeing to a battle doesn't mean he agreed to the whole bloom thing. This was the first time she ever bloomed so it's not likely he knew she could do that. He probably agreed to a duel or was invaded and fought her, and then she bloomed and basically ran away by proxy leaving him with nothing to show for the battle.
@@W_W-f8yI mean they probably were in a remote location, with both of their armies….the rot spread across an entire region of the map so it wouldn’t of really mattered where they fought if the blast radius is the size of Caelid
It must've hurt Marika pretty badly for her golden child to be the prince of DEATH, the removal of which her entire order, godhood and identity is based on. Not only did she lose a child but her entire foundation. No wonder she was pushed to the brink
Kind of explains why she got so fed up and shattered the Elden ring, she probably felt that all her sacrifices were for nothing and that she failed to create the eternal golden order she wanted, so she got fed up and started a competition between her kids to become the next ruler.
Alright the discussion on the omen has given me a theory, what if Marika sent Messmer to destroy the hornsent BECAUSE they were causing the omen curse in response to whatever betrayal Marika had done too them? Marika essentially became a god, usurped their position as the leading power in the lands between and went off on her own with her followers. The hornsent, bitter about being tossed aside and forgotten implanted themselves into the new erdtree culture by sending vengeful spirits of their dead to curse some children in erdtree society to be born with aspects of the crucible. I feel like this explains more why Marika waited so long to actually destroy the hornsent instead of doing it immediately after becoming a god, she felt that her betrayal of them was enough punishment for what they were doing to the shaman/numen, but when the omen curse appeared she realized the only way to stop it was to wipe out the hornsent entirely. This could also be why the furnace golems were created, to destroy the hornsent in body AND SPIRIT so that they could no longer use HORNSENT SPIRITS to create the omen curse. Omen are basically just people that have been stuffed full of hornsent spirits, which is why they can spew spirits and why they are described as being tormented by spirits.
The Hornsent occupy a similar capacity that the Fire Giants did, only, each curse has an indirect impact on Marika. The Crucible manifests in Morgott & Mohg, the Fell God's influence flows through Radagon's red hair.
Interesting theory. I like to think Marika did sent Messmer to kill hornsent before she was a god. That the gate of divinity was created cause Marika needed tons of corpses. So she choose hornsent as her revenge. As for the omen curse. Well we know that different fire in the game is used for different thing. That spirit can exist even if the body is burn away. They state spirits are eternal but only frenzy flames can kill them permanently. So it possible Messmer flame can only destroy the body but not the spirit. Because Marika seal the rune of death away and basically try to eliminate other death religion. This cause the hornsent spirits to know longer be contain, rested or destroy. So they inflicted the people.
@@gunzkiller101 I feel like the story trailer contradicts this: showing Messmer's purge after the segment where Marika goes through the divine gate and having the Scadutree already exist during the purge. Dunno if there's concrete evidence ingame though
Makes sense. He would've defeated Malenia too if she hadn't forsaken her honor and nuked him. Even then, Radahn still kept fighting until we finished him off. I wonder if Miquella was playing the long game, weakening him with Rot and waiting for Ranni to inevitably send Blaidd and her consort to finish the job. That assumes Miquella was even aware of Ranni's goals and her reliance on the movement of the stars.
"Would you lose against Malenia?" "Well, If she fully unleashes her Scarlet Rot, it might give me a little trouble." "But would you lose?" "Nah, I'd win."
I've always been of the mindset that Radahn locked down the stars to stop Ranni's plan, and the idea that he would do the same to stop Miquella's plan as well fits into that mindset. We know that Radahn was always a champion of the Golden Order, he learned about outer powers through his gravitational studies with the Alabaster Lord, and he was a Carian just as much as Ranni. If his fate is to be something other than the Lion of the Golden Order, he himself could deny this fate by sealing the stars.
We know why Radahn held the stars. It’s was to save Sellia. “The Starscourge Conflict Radahn alone holds Sellia secure And stands tall, to shatter the stars” - Caelid Sword Monument
@@ViviRavan There are signs that point to the falling stars that threatened Sellia being brought about by Radahn himself; that he made the Scarscourge Conflict in order to be the hero he saw himself as. It could very well be that it was also a cover for his true motives behind conquering the stars in such a way.
@@ViviRavan Lokey makes a good case for it in their summary of Radahn's lore under the "A Hero Made" segment. Radahn's castle having a Carian hemicylium to the east to monitor the movements of the stars and summon them forth, and Radahn learning his Collapsing Stars spell (called Starcrusher in Japanese) specifically to challenge the stars. He brought on the conflict in order to make a legend, he is the challenger, and he pretty much put Sellia in the path of disaster with the confidence that he alone could stop it and make a legend from it.
It just makes sense that Radahn was initially charmed. We know that Miquella charms through making promises based on what happens when Radahn grabs you in the fight. He grabs you and makes you a promise. This promise results in you becoming charmed into vowing yourself into his service. What makes the most sense is that Radahn was charmed, but this charm was broken when the Elden Ring was shattered, similar to what we see in the game when Miquella breaks his Great Rune. Then Malenia has to go to Caelid to force Radahn to honor the vow.
Maybe the power of radahn’s rune corrupted him. We know that the runes corrupt an aspect of the demigod, maybe in Radahn’s case it made him want honor or conquest so badly that he left behind his vow to miquella.
You're forgetting the demigods only receive their great runes after the shattering. If anything, Miquella's power to charm would have been enhanced when the eldenring was shattered and he received his great rune.
In your case, he grabs and makes you a promise without your input, with emphasis on your heart stolen. In Radahn's case they talked and he had set a condition Miquella had to fulfil for him to agree and do his own part, without it its never happening. I dont think thats the same.
Hear me out here: The Gloam Eyed Queen had Messmer and Melina with Marika. This explains the GeQ's weird place in the timeline, all of the Melina connections, as well as a better explanation for Messmer's snake associations. I've always been a GeQ = Melina believer in the past but one thing that erked me was that Melina just isn't very... Motherly? Like for one thing, she's small. I highly doubt someone of Melina's stature would be able to *birth* an entire apostasy of snake people, but thats a nitpick. In the story Melina often mentions her mother, which to me, tells me the narrative treats Melina as a daughter, rather than a mother. I believe Melina's lack of iconography in Golden Order society is because she's less so Marika's daughter than the Gloam Eyed Queen's Daughter. She learned her teachings, she learned about the importance of death and birth rather than eternal life, and she has the power of death sealed in her eye. (Speaking of sealing things in eyes, Messmer too has the Abyssal serpent sealed in his eye, and I think this makes a lot more sense if both Melina and Messmer are the GeQ's kids, they both have powers of hers sealed behind their left and right eye respectively.) As a follow up to the last point, I don't believe Marika was the mother who gave Melina her duty, I think it was the GeQ. Her duty is to act as kindling, and to burn down the erdtree, and while Marika does go against the Greater Will, it's completely against her interest to burn down the Erdtree. This is why Melina is so chill with being burned alive, her own mother instilled in her a philosophy that death makes way for life, and that its both necessary and beautiful in a way. Lastly some misc things which make me skeptical about GeQ = Melina. - Her fighting style being the same as the Black Knife assassins would be strange if she seems to predate them by so long. The Black Knife Assassins seemed to have been formed after Maliketh already held the rune of death, and the GeQ was from an era before this. -The GeQ used a gigantic greatsword, and Melina's fighting style doesn't suit this. The Godslayer's Greatsword is also unwieldy in the hands of a Tarnished, leading me to believe its original wielder was large enough to use it like a straight sword. -Metyr shares some striking imagery with the Geq's Iconography, her Black Flame Fingerprint icon seems to be based on Metyr's face, and her greatsword shares a spiral shape with Metyr's tails thats pretty unique even considering how common the spiral shape is in Elden Ring. This tells me Metyr, upon landing in Miyr, chose the GeQ before even Marika was chosen by a 2 Fingers. -There is the skin of a snake in the Bonny Village, I don't know what this means, I don't think anybody does, but if it does have something to do with the Gloam Eyed Queen then it means she was likely a part of the Shaman culture rather than Leyndell culture.
It definitely makes sense for Messmer to be the first born. You guys are on the money. His attitude and devotion to marika is only something that would come from a first born. The only moment he spites his mother his when he's dying
My thing with Radahn "not making sense" is that all we heard in the base game and lore tubers was that we don't know what Miquella's plan is. There was some speculation but I don't really think what we got violated anything. That and if you think back to something like Dark Souls 3's DLC - all of that lore is entirely new as well. That's just to say this isn't unprecedented by From.
Most people hate it cause 1. The boss fight is really frustrating and 2. After you beat him literally you get one stupid cutscene that explains nothing. If from soft actually put effort into the ending people would view this decision very differently. For example veil should’ve been lifted and there should’ve been some additional dialogue from Miquella after the fight such as morgot and the tarnished after his fight.
@@WellThatsMyOpinion This happened to me with the ending of the main game too tbh, I think the way they made the "endings" in Elden Ring is just not very fulfilling, I understand that fromsoft never wants us to get full closure so that there's always an air of mysteyr, but just getting literally nothing endings to stuff gives me all the reasons in the world to just not care, and that hurts, because I WANT to care, these characters are so cool! i want to know more! From should give us 80% of the info on them and withhold 10% of mystery, rather than just giving us 20% and the rest is... up to us I guess.
The fact that it's Radahn's spirit but Mohg's body, the body should have resembled Mohg more. Instead it just looks like Radahn wearing horny armor but they had the option to make a more unique looking boss. A horned monstrosity that has lost it's mind, but in phase 2, Miquella embraces him like Serosh on Godfrey, and his moves start to resemble Radahn's moves in his main game fight. Oh hey, kinda like Ludwig, many people's favorite FromSoft boss fight!!!
Would fit Miyazaki's aesthetics of broken heroic figures. Although I would want him to retain his sanity before miquella embraces him since it would still keep miquella somewhat pure. Because I don't think radahn would want to be over reliant on miquella on his promised revival
I think the design to work well because it looks noble and pure at first, but you see the cracks (or horns) start to show. It feels like the armor tries to hide Mohg's influence
@@noamias4897 I don't think his design is bad by any means, and this next part is certainly my own fault, I won't deny, but I missed the second half of Ansbach's quest, so I never got the revelation that Mohg's body was being used as a puppet, so when I saw Radahn walk out, the only thing I saw was a smaller Radahn. It didn't occur to me in the slightest that Radahn wasn't in his normal body, and I just feel there was more they could have done to get that across, rather than make it look like Radahn was wearing horns on his armor. To those who finished Ansbach's story it might be cool to see the mix of the two characters knowing what it is. To those who missed Ansbach's story it might be a fun mystery to ponder before realizing the truth. I'm not saying my experience is the end all be all, but I think it would have been better if the boss design did more to show off Mohg's influence. I also feel bad for Mohg, haha. Not only was he disrespected by literally everyone, and even with his body as the final boss, no one looks at him and thinks, yeah, that's definitely Mohg. He never had agency and he will be forgotten in time. Poor ol' chap.
@@erenja3ger871 Maybe my suggestions were a little unhinged, haha. This comes down to a matter of preference. The way I see it, Radahn would be fighting Mohg for control over his body, or maybe getting used to it and it might feel like a fighter using his weak hand to fight like Artorias. Then in phase two, Miquella walks out a god to comfort and support him and that's when we get the true fight. Again, what we got wasn't inherently wrong. I just felt disappointed with the presentation because A) I missed the second half of Ansbach's story so I never knew it was Mohg's body and going into the final fight all I saw was Radahn and I thought... I already fought this guy. B) upon learning it was Mohg's body I immediately thought it was a joke because the only thing seemingly relating to Mohg was that one blood flame attack and the horns attached to his armor (which I don't think is unreasonable to think they came from the hornsent instead of Mohg himself). I just think the fight would have been more interesting if Mohg had more influence in the design and moves and the transition to phase 2 might feel more impactful than just: Phase 1, Prime Radahn; Phase 2; Prime Radahn with light. It might have even gotten across Miquella's sinister goals of manipulation seeing Radahn fighting for control only to have Miquella put a stop to it. Sorry, I'm a little unhinged. I promise I'm not bitter, I still like the lore and boss and I'll get over it quickly because the game is hella fun and lore videos are my life blood, haha.
The Gate of Divinity requires a lord for the God to return from it This to me implies that Marika's betrayal was her bringing Horaux Loux to the tower and together with him they slaughtered the towers keepers and Marika ascended to Godhood Its also very clear to me that Miquella's story is a direct parallel to Marika and this is why Radagon is not a God until the shattering because he was her abandoned other half
A crown is earned with might. Also explains why Radagon was accepted back as part of the whole being again and new elden lord, after the liurnian wars were won where Marika herself had failed he earned the right to both. This is also coincidentally around the same time as the birth of golden order fundamentalism as well as the introduction of regression as a main concept back into order. The parallels makes me wonder if Miquella's new order maybe would have eventually accepted St Trina back into godhood too if we hadn't cut their rule short
Why wouldn't it be Marika and Radagon at the gate? If the children of that union all have their own butterflies and are cursed it'd make sense for Melina and Messmer to be children of that union before her first union either Godfrey.
The problem with this is that betrayal the Hornsent is talking about is the Messmer Crusade, not Marika’ Ascending to Godhood. The Crusade also is after Marika rise in power.
I think people get it twisted and assume that because Miquella was looking for a way to help his favored brother Godwyn die a true death (see Last Rites word item description) and the experiment at castle sol to bring a soul back (presumably to Godwyn) that that somehow automatically means that the reason why he was doing so was so that he could be his king consort in his coming age of becoming a god. You have to remember that Godwyn's death was at the beginning, beginning of the end. Before the shattering kicked off. From what we can tell by Miquella being named by Morgott as one who ended up later betraying the Erdtree, its clear he was initially still on his mission to just fix his siblings in any way he could. He tried castle sol for godwyn, he tried the unalloyed needle for melania, he tried and failed to make his own erdtree in the haligtree for all those cast aside and rejected by the erdtree such as the albinaurics and the misbegotten. And after all of that THEN he moved on a plan to upend the whole of it and become a God because none of it was working within the existing system. He made a vow with Radahn because in his eyes, his brother's "strength, and his kindness, [that] stood in stark contrast with their afflicted selves". Godwyn was the golden child, the one demigod who had embodied the Golden Order like no other. Miquella's whole journey through the lands of shadow had him divesting himself of his flesh, his fate, and all things golden specifically to get away from Marika's legacy in its entirety when becoming a new God. In what world would it have made sense that he had the literal golden boy as his consort? To me, it was clear that Godwyn's story ended as the Golden Order was ending. He was the first nail in the coffin of that chapter of the lands between. As much as it would have been cool to see some more about those who are continuing to follow and exalt his living corpse and the blight its spawning, I always saw his soul as DEAD dead as it was slain with the rune of death, full stop. I also think that the mad taint of the runes just amplified each demigod's main aspect and twisted it. Morgott's appreciation of the erdtree and golden order despite being spurned by it became zealous fervor, Rykard's place as one to dole out justice and judge and jury, what was seen as 'heroic' cause by his men turned greed and feeding himself and every champion of the volcano manor to the snake, Melania's loyalty to being Miquella's blade going so far as to break herself and what Miquella had wanted from her (freedom from control of the rot) to kill Rahdan, Rahdan's noble love of battle, but as a hero and protector turned into him being a vicious warlord. And this one is more speculation because we never saw Miquella in the base game, but his lack of wisdom and curse of his underdeveloped perspective on his compassion, etc. being dialed up to 10 and making him think his forced compassion age being the only option. It makes plenty of sense that Rahdan could have initially agreed to the vow, willing to be that noble man and be the king consort, but with the mad taint of the runes genuinely lost his mind and that's the only reason that Melina had to come fight him rather than him not going willingly.
To me his soul reincarnated into the Mending Rune of the Death Prince through Fia, when you attack Fia at the end of her quest line, rancors are summoned to retaliate and she says:" is that you dear ? " . The Mending Rune has the shape of a radiating eclipse. Godwyn's role in the story is already over
Except the Rune of Death isnt actual obliteration. Its just genuine death beyond being recycled into the Erdtree. If anything Godwyn being slain by the Rune of Death would make it MORE likely that he’d end up in the Realm of Shadow
@@Austib_ It's actually the embodiment of Destined Death which is not the same thing as something dying in the Lands Between under Marika's current order. When Rahdan died in Caelid, his remembrance was hewn into the Erdtree and it is from there that his soul was able to be recalled by Miquella for his ends, he was not slain by the rune of death. All that death that has washed up in the lands between, did exactly that 'wash up'. Both rejected by the Erdtree, left unburned by the deathrite birds as in days of old, but also not slain by the rune of death, thus not delivered Destined Death aka true death, because Marika had it removed from the elden ring and had it locked down with Maliketh. Its for that reason I'd argue that Miquella's initial attempts to find a way to bring Godwyn back eventually lead him to the need to reject the Erdtree, the order, the whole of it. There was no answer that would let Godwyn come back given how he was killed because his soul died a true death.
Love this! I feel like you put my exact thoughts into proper words. My question is though, do you think Godwyn is okay with becoming the prince of death? I can’t come to a conclusion on this myself and its the one thing that drives me crazy about him
@@fourdayz1414 Its definitely not possible to know completely (this is why I agree I wish there were a few more hints about who Godwyn was in the DLC), but there are some interesting things to contemplate. Ones immediate reaction may be to say of course he wouldn't want this to be what has become of his corpse, after all he was THE son of the golden lineage, and Those Who Live in Death were very clearly rejected full stop by Marika's golden order and were, at least by the current age, hunted down by erdtree zealots (see D's quest). But there are a few things to consider: 1) We know from the Blessed Dew Talisman "but that age of plenty swiftly came to a close, and with time, the Erdtree became more an object of faith." meaning that, in the distant past, the actual practices around the Erdtree by the people in the lands between were likely very different before it eventually transitioned to religious practice. Therefore its entirely plausible that while Those Who Live in Death have always been outside of Marika's order, they weren't expressly hated or rejected with such fervor and thus Godwyn may not have had such an assumed negative view on them. 2) This is especially interesting to consider when we know that Godwyn himself had folded dragon worship/partnership, etc. into practice in Layndell (Honed Bolt: "Long ago, Godwyn the Golden defeated the ancient dragon Fortissax, and befriended his fallen foe - an event that gave rise to the ancient dragon cult in the capital", Gravel seal: "The worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree. After all, this seal, and lightning itself, are both imbued with gold", there was a connection both ways, not faith as seen in Dragon Bolt Blessing: "Only those loved by dragons can survive the ordeal of cladding their bodies in lightning." & Lannseax's Glaive: "Lansseax was the sister of Fortissax. It is said that she took the form of a human to commune with the knights as a priestess of the ancient dragon cult") suggesting a flexibility in what was deemed acceptable, even within the heart of the golden order's society, and specifically in Godwyn himself. Again, its impossible to know, but I'd also like to point out that its not just new 'followers' exalting Godwyn's corpse as the Prince of Death. I think it is important to note that the Death Knights we find in the catacombs guarding his cadaver surrogates were ancient dragon cultists and his loyal personal guard (see death knight armor set and weapons descriptions). I find it very curious in seeing what became of their Lord, they did not revile his transformation. They didn't see it as a sin so beyond the pale that they needed to seek a way to deliver Godwyn a true death to escape such a wretched fate, but instead embrace him in his entirety. If there was anyone who would have an insight into Godwyn and what his potential wants and desires would have been, it would be his personal guard. Those are just a few of my thoughts!
I absolutely loved the DLC, but there was just so much lore unanswered and questions raised, we as fans went nuts trying to answer it all before the DLC, then we got disappointed. I fully expected Miquella to somehow solve most of the plot issues and tie everything up somehow, which now that I look back on it, is crazy naive. we just get so much stuff about unalloyed gold, the eclipse, the haligtree -- and then for all of that to go way of "oops sorry just Radahn" felt weird. I do think Miquella ascending to godhood in the land of shadow was a last ditch effort to try and fix things though, considering all his other projects failed. you become so desperate you do the unthinkable you thought you'd never do -- in the end, he became his mother of participating in that cycle of endless "no wait, i can fix it!!" which is really tragic. great conversation, y'all.
Ranni seems oddly disconnected from Miquella and Radahn My head canon is that Radahn being Miquella’s concert is Radahn’s reward for upholding his end of the deal, not the other way around. Miquella needed time work on his plan. Radahn’s ability to hold the stars gave Miquella time to figure out how to usher in a new age. His plan seems rushed, like the Haligtree was plan A and the DLC was a desperate attempt to have his own age. I think Ranni orchestrating the night of the black knives shows she was much closer to achieving her goal. Her next steps are pretty simple compared to Miquella. The Age of Stars happens like immediately if Radahn isn’t holding the stars. Miquella has to be aware of that to some degree following the night of black knives. Radahn promised to hold the stars back until Miquella’s plans are in place. Maybe he fights Malenia because Miquella is dead/cocooned and thinks the plan is off. Their agreement could be a secret, partially explaining the lack of connections in the main game. The Golden Order would know something is up if they were openly cooperating.
Miquella, if memory serves me right, apparently was on Caelid when Malenia fought Radahn. It seems like Radahn stopped the stars so the vow is never fulfilled. Malenia even says to Radahn that Miquella is waiting for him as a Consort. Mogh was just seduced by Miquella and got his body stolen for the ritual to work. Promised Consort Radahn was just one of many plans Miquella had, this one just happens to work at the end.
@@Jaden-Ringwhat makes you think Radagon is the only person with red hair Marika could’ve had kids with? Also, what makes you think the father is anything humanoid? What makes you think there was a father at all?
@pastorofmuppets4552 we really don't have anything hinting to any other father for messmer unless it was the fleshy thing she pulled the gold out of in the story trailer. Radagon and marika being his parents is the explanation that requires the least reaching. Now yes sometimes reaching is important to form connections but we don't even have enough information to go off of for an alternative. If messmer has a father that is a red haired humanoid and also isn't Radagon then they literally don't give us any information about him whatsoever.
An educated guess on how the golem message happened from my professional game dev experience: It was most likely not "one guy" but "most people" that missed the golem weak point. The first solution was most likely to make the weak point stand out more. They did additional testing and found out that many people still struggled to understand. so they threw their hands up and went for the nuke. A designer added a dev message, and an artist continued to make the gem more evident. That's how you end up with a classic case of over correction, where there is both a very evident design clue and a dumbass message on the ground. Makes me think that maybe there could be a different ways to envision "difficulty options" for souls likes with a "guidance mode" that adds messages like the golem one, and indications like "your current build is shite, level up stat X". It wouldn't clear the issue of people missing some of the fun of discovery and experimentation because they fear playing without guidance mode, but at least that wouldn't wreck the game's combat experience.
I definitely did a play through where I reserved Farum Azula / Mountain Tops / Halig Tree / Consecrated Snowfield / burning erd tree. And went straight to Killing Mohg and Radahn then went to shadow lands. It was roooough starting at lvl 105 but it was very rewarding to get the abundance of stones plus scadutree
I did something similar I stopped after Ordina and Fire Giant so I could compare Haligtree and Farum with the Shadowrealm (also having more places to test out the new weapons) and I was very pleasantly surprised that my damage was comparable and I could get through almost all of the side bosses and up to Messmer without any fragment upgrades or summons. I just could not do enough damage on Messmer himself and kept running out of flasks during his 2nd phase. I guess if I went spear and shield and respecced I could have done it, but I didn't wanna compromise on my play style. Rellana, Metyr and Midra took a while but I was still able to down them at base game damage/resistance. Can't say I could have beaten either Gaius or Putrescence without the upgrades, those kicked my ass with the upgrades. Radahn also would have just been impossible, I think I went in at like level 5 because I was trying to use as few as possible, but after a couple hours of barely only getting him to his second phase twice, I said fuck it and just upgraded with like the 30 fragments I had leftover and after that I had no problem getting to 2nd phase and it only took me a handful of tries and some RNG luck to down him.
I never understood people complaining about the DLC because when I returned to the base game after it and went to Farum Azula I got rekt by everything when DLC enemies barely tickled in comparison
I think Radahn absolutely wanted to be Elden Lord. His two role models were, I think he made a promise that if Miquella became a god, he world be willing to be the consort. Radahn dying and being reborn may have been only necessary for to occur in the shadow realm, a place where Miquella could upend the entire erd tree from the source.
Lore theory: Empyrians have the innate ability to break off pieces of themselves to create other people similarly to how cuttings from a tree can grow a new tree. Grafting is attaching new branches to a tree. Cutting is growing a new tree from a removed branch. This might not be restricted to just empyrians but empyrians definitely do this. Miquella splits off his love as Trina. Malenia splits off her will and self respect as Millicent. Marika may be in the process of splitting radagon off from herself. Shadow-bound beasts may also be these split souls, as Serosh is meant to contain loux's bloodlust. Maliketh may also contain part of Marika. And if I'm right, Melina split off from Ranni, perhaps representing her fate or faith. This would explain why melina is confused by the concept of a mother despite being a daughter of marika, since she wasn't traditionally born. If we go one step weirder, followers of the three fingers talk about stopping births and thus divisions of life. Perhaps all birth in the lands between involves a splitting as well.
I think a lot of the Godwyn discourse could have been alleviated with more explicit confirmation that Miquella was forced to change his mind after the Eclipse failed and go with Radahn. As it stands now, all base-game evidence pointed to Godwyn and Radahn comes out of left field with no foreshadowing whatsoever. I still think involving Godwyn would have been a better choice, even just using his monstrous corpse somehow. If they were totally tied to not changing the Duskborn ending (which is also so nebulous that it adds to the issue), they really just needed a couple lines of lore to explain why Miquella pivoted away from the obvious choice for a compassionate warrior-king. As it stands now, Radahn’s appearance is like whiplash for people who actually were interested in Miquella pre-DLC.
An important note on the scadutree fragments. Blessing level 12 acts like a soft cap, and after it the improvements are marginal. As such the 21 scadutree fragments required to make the extra 8 levels are effectively surplus in a similar way to Ratatoskr was suggesting fromsoft add in surplus fragments. This was the case even before the adjustment patch, albeit to a slightly lesser extent iirc. There’s a case to be made that this was never communicated and helped fuel the feeling that the system was unfairly punishing though
My “eureka!” Moment for understanding why Radahn was chosen as consort was thinking of Radahn and Miquella as another iteration of the “Red King, White Queen” pairings going on between the known lords and gods. Radagon and Marika, Placidusax is a red king, Godfrey and Marika, and now Radahn and Miquella. It’s a simple thing that made me appreciate the choice more.
I agree that the biggest issue with the Scadutree system was not having more than 50 fragments. I also play like Smough, like 90%, but i got to the end having missed 4 fragments. At level 18, I questioned whether or not they even took it to 20, so even having a maximum denominator or something would help.
I used the system to know if i had missed something major, sittin at lvl19 in front of the final boss now feeling pretty good that i probably saw most major areas. This was only possible because i knew the max was 20, so it required knowledge outside of the game
So, Radahn being revived being his condition to become Miquella's lord makes it *more* likely he's actually being charmed -- because Malenia comes explicitly on Miquella's order, with Miquella apparently along with her, to basically kill him to fulfill it. This seems like a weird thing for Radahn to want. "Oh, you gotta revive me for me to be your consort." Yet he wants an honorable death by Jerren? Why would he want to be consort at all for Miquella? And why would he still agree if Miquella decides to force the issue by killing him? Either Radahn wanted an insurance policy against death, or maybe he wanted to see if Miquella's blade could defeat him...which, it turns out, she couldn't. Either way, Miquella doesn't really fulfill that promise.
Radhan is a carian, his fate is guided by the stars. I think he made the vow to be the lord, saw his fate in the stars during the starscourge conflict, saw himself his fate as a lord of an order of compassion with a god without love. He then locked the stars to stop this future without directly breaking the vow
really the best explanation I've seen, vaati himself was like "yeah radahn just loved fighting *so* much that he overdid it and almost killed malenia, so she had to go off-script and rot herself to beat him" lol
I think this DLC has doubled down on one of the big themes of the FromSoft games; you don't f*ck with the natural order. Marika removed death from the Natural Order to create her own Golden Order. Miquella would remove not death, but FREE WILL, which is arguable much worse. Granted, I still think this is done with good intentions but it doesn't make it any less nefarious. Still he wouldn't be ruling on his own merit, just using someone mightier to act as his enforcer. What makes it even worse is that [Promised Consort] isn't even the first time Miquella has tried to resurrect another demigod to control as his means to godhood. Remember at Castle Sol he tried to resurrect Godwin via a solar eclipse, but that plan was thwarted because RADAHN was holding back the celestial bodies. So of course he didn't want to play with Godwin anymore, he found a better toy.
This theme is completely undercut by Ranni though, who hacks death itself with a dark magic ritual that involves the ritual murder of a family member, and then she proceeds to get everything she wants.
@@societyman6591Ranni wasn’t really meddling in the natural order though, she was using Marika’s tools in an attempt to fight back against the greater will…an alien god who’s power is used by Marika to defy the natural order and replace it with her own “golden order.” Rannis ending involves separating the greater will completely from the lands between, and going away to the stars to let people make their own decisions.
@@donovan4222 Except that now we know that the Greater Will hasn't been involved with the world for a very long time, so her atrocities served no purpose other than her own.
@@Averyfuente Well whether Ranni was fighting back against Marika’s will, or the greater will through Marika, I don’t think changes much in regards to Ranni. I don’t know why we talk about Ranni’s “atrocities” when all she really did was kill 1 demigod, something the tarnished does like 8 times throughout the game 😂 I don’t really blame Ranni for taking down the golden order, as it appears to have been rotten from the start. Ranni also seemed to believe that she was going to be enslaved by the greater will, like Marika, in the “caged divinity” as St Trina calls it. And lastly, whether Ranni is a good person or not I don’t think changes the fact that her ending where she separates the gods from the lands between is probably the best solution.
It might sound weird but I actually think the biggest piece of evidence against Melina being the Gloam Eyed Queen is that it’s only one of her eyes that is. If someone had one red eye and one blue eye you wouldn’t call them “the blue eyed queen” or the “red eyed queen” you would call them the “blue and red eyed queen”, or the “hetrochromiac queen” if you wanted to be technical about it.
The DLC really helps to better understand two specific bosses. The commander at the eclipse fort, and the commander in inner aeonia. We never knew if the commander in Caelid served under Radahn or Miqella, but I think it’s almost certain now that he is first and foremost, an agent of Miqella. That is why he makes recovering the broken needle and protecting it his priority. It would also explain why BOTH of them can summon spirits, which is something most definitely “of” the shadow realm, where Miqella has planned to or already gone to when we face them in the base game.
I just realized Godfrey literally has a Divine Beast on his back and his personal guard are called Crucible Knights & use Aspects of the Crucible; OF COURSE the Shadow Lands weren't sealed at the moment she became a God. The Hornsent probably helped her fight the Giants and all & she just erased them from history.
The Fingers seduced Marika. Marika unravels the natural religion and culture of her world to replace it with an alien God’s Order. Thats the betrayal. It’s deeper than pot vengeance.
I love pot but I love aliens even more. The alien nature of the fingers is highly underrated. It’s something George r r Martin would do, he loves putting sci fi in fantasy. Michael Zaki approves
Idk, the Hornsent Grandam repeatedly refers to us, thinking we are with Messmer, as the "progeny of the strumpet", meaning "child of the whore", and Marika's Golden Braid from the Shaman Village mentions Marika leaving it as an offering to The Grandmother. Sounds to me like Marika became well-ensconced in Hornsent society, particularly with the Grandam, probably became the consort of a hornsent God, then killed him and ascended to godhood herself, thus why the Grandam refers to her basically as some slut who came in here, slept with their god, and betrayed their people.
I’m curious as to how this happened and if it has anything to do with serpents and Mesmer/Melinas curse. Is the “seduction” implying the fingers allowed Marika to create children with her other half (Radagon)? Or perhaps Radagon was a form that the fingers took to control Marika.
@@donovan4222 I have been thinking the serpent thing as well. if it was just the fingers who seduced Marika on behalf of the greater will, then why did the greater will abandon the fingers? my speculation is that a serpent had something to do with it. we hear the phrase "the original sin" in a bunch of places in the dlc, even one in messmers great rune which says he "keeps company with the original sin". the exact wording "original sin" echoes the Adam and Eve story, where eve was tempted by a snake which resulted in god abandoning them. elden Ring loves using Christian motifs so to me the serpent theory really fits.
The thing is that the Greater Will is not some "alien god" extrinsic to the nature of the universe, but its divine creator. We have no evidence it is malevolent, and in fact the most stable and prosperous era (Placidusax's era) was the era where it had the most influence. The problem with the Fingers is not that they're doing the bidding of some evil alien invader, but precisely that they DON'T have a real connection to the Greater Will anymore. Did you even complete Ymir's questline?
Ratatoskr, you missed the ball on the age of Order ending. What you describe of the Age of Order ending is actually what the Age of Fracture ending is, which is just like rekindling the flame in Dark Souls, you aren't solving the problem by just mending the Eldenring, Goldmask's philosophy fixes this issue. As another commenter has put quite well, "There's been a lot of good explanations already but I'll take a crack because the flavor of these games is interpretation anyways. So the default ending is like linking the fire in Dark Souls, you solve the immediate problem by kicking the can down the road but eventually as the world continues walking it'll reach the can again and nothing will have been truly solved. Whether it's Marika or another god, their imperfections will inevitably lead to them making selfish and/or impulsive decisions that harm the world because, despite their power and divinity, the gods are not that different from the common person and have personality flaws. Most of the state of the world as we see it in the game is because of who Marika was as a ruler and the choices she made throughout her reign. Take the shattering, for instance. A grief stricken parent, her cherished son murdered, decided the system was broken and chose to tear it all down in a fit of impulsive rage/grief. That is both very relatable and understandable of her, but also very human of her, and we expect our gods to be above human emotion and weakness don't we? A logical and benevolent god wouldn't destroy the fabric of reality despite any sort of attack against them because they should be above petty things like that. Marika, despite her divinity, is essentially just a grieving mother who acted out rashly in her despair. Gold Mask, upon learning the truth that Marika and Radagon are in fact the same being (look into alchemy and the concept of the Rebis for more on that) realized that a lot (or all) of the pain, suffering, chaos and war that had been inflicted upon the land throughout known history is, at its most simple terms, because of the meddling of the gods. Because of Marika/Radagon's actions and choices. Their fickleness, as it's put, is no better than mortal humans, despite them supposedly being better than them. He sees that Marika having had the free reign to just decide to mess with or destroy the rules of reality that held the world together (symbolized literally and figuratively as the titular Elden Ring and its content runes) as the problem. She didn't want her family to die so she just...removed death from existence by taking that part out of the Elden Ring, but that then altered reality as a whole and essentially now no one could die. That might seem cool at first but the world and people were not meant or designed to be immortal and problems arose from it. Then someone like Ranni, who was dissatisfied with the way things were, stole a fragment of that rune of death, essentially the concept of death, and used it to kill her body and Godwyn's soul. She needed a sacrificial soul to die instead of hers so her spirit would live on past her body's death and free her from the influence of the two-fingers/Greater Will. This meant that while her flesh died and her spirit remained, Godwyn suffered the inverse and his soul died but his body essentially lives on in undeath now sort of alive but without his soul, causing the deathblight and introducing undeath into the world. Oops, guess you have to break some eggs to make an omelette right? Whether you agree with Ranni's ultimate goals or not, the only reason her plot was even possible was because the Elden Ring, the fundamental laws of reality, were in fact alterable by the gods to begin with. So, Gold Mask interprets all of this information, and finally realizes the truth of everything (the fly in the oinment) that's happened when you reveal the secret piece of the puzzle to him that Marika is Radagon and thus a flawed and imperfect being since both halves of the same god can't even agree on what's right and are at conflict (Marika destroys the ring while Radagon simultaneously tries to repair it) thus leading to this whole mess. He concludes that none of this would have happened or even been possible if the gods were actually the infallible and flawless beings they're supposed to be, but they're not. They're emotional and flawed just like humanity, and so since the gods can't be trusted to be perfect and above flaw the only other option is to remove their ability to affect the world in harmful ways based on their whims and he somehow uses this revelation to either discover or create the rune of mending, which if used is a new addition to the Elden Ring itself when applied and is depicted as a glowing shield around the Elden Ring, basically a visual metaphor for a protective barrier that will now prevent any tampering or meddling with the Elden Ring and thus prevent any god or ruler from changing the rules of reality because they got mad or sad about something. In theory, this solves the problem and prevents events like the shattering from ever happening again. Some people interpret this more sinisterly, like that it removes anyone's free will to enforce order in a tyrannical way, but I guess that depends on your point of view and whether or not you think the Golden Order is inherently good or bad. Ranni wanted to free herself of this influence, for instance, so she'd find it bad, for example. But that's ultimately for you to decide for yourself. tl:dr: Gold Mask learns the previous sysadmin (a shitty parent with a major case of the magical DID variety) sucks and broke everything by being allowed to mess with the OS's core file structure. He fixes this by taking away their administrator rights and makes the system files read-only so that nobody (including any new admins) can fuck with it anymore. "
The immutability imposed by Goldmask's rune may have potential consequences in the long run. If it indeed locks down any changes or 'updates' to the Elden Ring via the addition/removal of other runes, this could prevent the Elden Ring from ever returning to its original (?) state as depicted in that one Farum Azula mural (or from ever being 'improved' upon).
If Melina or Marika were receiving orders from a possible Destined Death Outer God, the conversation w Melina at the Minor Erdtree Church and the gesture we get afterwards (Outer Order) would make for quite the subtle connection
If Marika didn't plan the shattering, but was pushed over the edge by the death of Godwyn, why does she tell the tarnished to come back in the future and take the elden ring for themselves? “In Marika's own words. Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring. Grow strong in the face of death. Warriors of my lord. Lord Godfrey.”
It's possible the cyclical nature of the elden ring and its associated god and consort was always at the forefront of Marika's mind to begin with. Godfrey and the Tarnished were likely a plot to ensure whatever followed Marika's order still had its roots ultimately in her. She usurped power from her oppressors, so she "oppresses" the Tarnished and Godfrey (whilst actually genociding, torturing, etc...). In my head, I see Marika as understanding of the inevitable consequence of reaching godhood the way she did: another will likely rise in a similar manner as she. So she hedges her bets. Godfrey and the Tarnished were Marika's first plan at protecting her order. Now, idk if Marika had a hand in the NotBK, but her reaction doesn't make sense if she was a conspirator.
We know she harbored doubts about the finger and golden order by the end, as she says that the time of blind loyalty is over. Perhaps she had planned to shatter the ring at some point, but not necessarily after Godwyn's death. Then his death pushed her far enough to do it. I just find it unlikely she got Godwyn killed because why would that be a prerequisite to her shattering it?
@@yungtubercolosis1073 hmm you're right. Never really understood that line and its contrast to the Bandai Namco article. I wish we'd get some clarity on that some day. Either Rogier is wrong or the Bandai article is
I think one of the best indicators that Melina is the gloam eyed queen is that we lose torrents whistle when we become the lord of frenzied flame and torrent is notably terrified in the abyssal woods
if you kill grandam wearing the dancing lion mask, she eventually gives in and sacrifices herself to you, thinking that you're trying to feed on her for life.
People need to accept Gloam Eyed Queen wasn’t that important to the narrative as they think. She was just a footnote it Marika’s rise to power. That’s all.
There are multiple item descriptions referring to her, we have a whole order of monks who have been seduced by her black flame, Dominala village is centered on her lore. Dude her power is sealed in a legendary sword in the basement of one of the divine towers. We also face the godskins like a hundred times 😅. She has an outsized presence in the lore of the base game. In fact she was way more prominent in the lore than the Greater Will. Her lack of presence in the DLC doesnt negate her importance.
@@sclafantasy “THAT” important. Never did I say she wasn’t important. Read. She has presence but ultimately in the grand scheme of things she’s a footnote in a larger story.
@@ViviRavan lol semantics. Miquella wasnt THAT important either. Your argument is based on a subjective interpretation of relative importance which is weak af and non-falsifiable.
I think the reason that Radahn comes across as pretty egregious is because of the lack of anything in the DLC being mentioned in the base game. There's no mention of Messmer in the base game (no I don't think the Impaler's Catacombeshas much to do with him), no mention of Rellana in the base game, no mention of the hornsent in the base game, no mention of the Scadutree or shadow realm in the base game, no mention of the shamans in the base game, no mention of bayle in the base game. The difference with Radahn, is he unfortunately is one of the characters whom we actually have a baseline for. So introducing all this new lore that appears to have to precedent feels jarring even if they didn't do anything particularly unique with him.
It’s awful because they essentially ruined the impact of his base game story to then bring him back, add nothing to his character in any form or at least get his perspective on things, and kill him AGAIN! It’s literally meaningless to bring him back.
I don’t recall exactly because it’s been a while, but a lot of the ds3 dlc was sort of the same. Like the world building was somewhat there because of a trilogy of games, but none of the main cast of bosses had any mentions in the base game. And there again, they used the character that gets you into the dlc as the final boss. But I don’t recall anyone complaining and/or finding issues with it being separate.
doesnt every dlc do this? the last boss of dark souls dlc is manus last boss of bloodborne dlc is orphan of kos. ds3 is gavel. none of these are talked about in base game as far as i know either.
@@dawsong5208 Artorias, Lady Maria, Ludwig, Lawerence, Demon Prince, Sister Friede(not her name specifically), and Slave Knights(not Gael specifically) were all mentioned or hinted at in their respective base games. Secondly, these bosses doesn’t outright changes are understanding of the base to this degree. We also never found a previously established character like Radahn. The situation for Elden Ring is significantly different than before.
I think Ratatoskr is on point about Messmer and Melina being the children of Radagon and GEQ. This explains the affair and the betrayal. The affair was Radagon and GEQ having children out of wedlock, and the betrayal was Marika killing the GEQ, taking her children, and raising them as their own. In a sense, she is, unbeknownst to them, their adoptive mother, and thus they treat and believe Marika to be their actual mother. And there is some evidence to back this: both Messmer and Melina have red hair (Radagon must have been their father), Marika/Radagon were already one when they pluck the Elden Ring out of the GEQ, so it is plausible Radagon built some sort of alliance beforehand with the GEQ to get close to her so they could take the Elden Ring, and both Messmer and Melina have the snake-eye-thingy.
So two things about this DLC that are interesting and aren't being discussed as much that I think needs more eyes on it. Miquella's and Radahn's vow to each other is specifically separate from the promise Miquella is asking Radahn to make. The other is that Messmers crusade cannot be Marika's betrayal of the hornsent. His crusade with all the evidence must have taken place after the Liurnian wars and possibly as cloak in the timeline as the banishment of Godfrey and the beginning of the long march of the Tarnished. We know this because Messmer acted as an older brother figure to Radahn which means he was around for Radahns youth and the fact that he recognizes us almost immediately as a Tarnished meaning he knows what the Tarnished are which he cannot have known if he was banished to the realm of shadow under the pretense of his crusade if he wasn't around for the banishment of Godfrey and his soilders. Im actually very glad you covered my second point
The biggest piece for me that sets the crusade apart from Marika's betrayal is the Omen curse that afflicts Mohg and Morgott. How could the crusades be the reason for the hornsent to curse Marika when they seem to have happened after Godfrey was sent away, and the Omen twins are children of Godfrey & Marika?
This is one of the biggest problems of the dlc imo. Messmers crusade is way more recent than we are initially led to believe, so it’s unreasonable for there to be zero evidence of messmer and the land of shadow in the base game.
@bigsmall2842 Actually no, I firmly believe he was erased from history. Rykard shows evidence of Messmer in the Volcano Manor's architecture: Winged Serpents. Another thing is the Erd Tree had to have Burned AFTER the Veiling. There are no golden seeds spread around the Land of Shadows, the Minor Erdtrees you can find are being protected and or cultivated. Also Black Knight Commander Andreas' Spirit Ashes mentions Messmer fleeing the ErdTree...
@bigsmall2842 The lack of Messmer imagery still makes sense, even outside of real world analogies and more into FromSoftware worlds. Dark Souls had the same thing with The Nameless King, if a royal divinity wants something gone they have some juice to make it happen.
I think you guys are WAAAY overthinking the Promised Consort thing. Think of it more like how a small child, who doesn't quite understand what romantic love is yet, say they want to marry their older sibling or parent because they love them and that must be how it works in their innocent mind. Miquella is pretty much proven in this DLC to not only have the eternal body of a child, but the mind of one too - always optimistic but doesn't understand what he does is harmful. Miquella said "promise me you'll be my consort in my age of kindness" to which a much older Radahn likely answered "awww sure kid" without meaning it. Then Melania took the "promise" extra serious for her brother, Radahn likely reacted with a big "HELL NO, IM NOT ACTUALLY DOING THAT" and that led to Melania attacking Caelid specifically to kill Radahn and bring his soul to Miquella (which she failed at)
I'm personally of the opinion that radahn never speaks because miquella's plan kind of failed. The scarlet rot was supposed to kill radahn. But he held on for years, if not decades afterward. The soul miquella brought back was the cannibalistic monster we fought in the base game, not the kind horse lover. Also, the Freudian implications of miquella forcing himself on his brother, who looks so similar to his father while simultaneously looking so much like his own mother while he literally attempts to take her place, is quite unsettling. All miquellas' efforts to build a better order than marikas ultimately led him down the exact same road.
I’m fairly convinced Radahn and Miquella agreed to a fight because of the Valhalla motif going on. Malenia and her clean rot knights have a very heavy Valkyrie aesthetic going on. Valkyries would bring warriors who died in battle to Valhalla. The shadow keep is also likely the Helphen that is mentioned on the helphen steeple. The aesthetics of the show keep and the weapon are VERY similar. There’s A LOT more that points in this direction but if you want more watch quelaags video on it.
I’m thinking that Radahn thought he could ascend to Elden Lord without Miquella becoming a god and charming everyone. So maybe his vow was “I’ll be your consort if I don’t beat everyone else in the Shattering War and become Elden Lord myself” Then Miquella kinda betrayed him and had Malennia kill him
Given that the fatal flaw with Miquella’s plan is that it completely rejects free will, Radahn being charmed makes perfect sense, he used Mohg, it would actually be kinda weird if he didn’t also use Radahn. Radahn’s fatal flaw being stagnation and loyalty to the golden order, it also doesn’t mesh with his character to be on Miquella’s side the whole time. The simplest story is young Radahn was charmed or just convinced to make a vow, then went back on the promise later in life, and Malenia came to collect on the debt and force him to comply. Pretty neat story, honestly, fits thematically and in the characters of Radahn and Miquella.
The fact that you have to kill Radahn to access the DLC was another hint, in a way the launch trailer with Radahn and Melania fighting was also hinting at it
@@KNIGHTMAREMANIAC yeah killing Radahn (Basegame) was a dead giveaway to me. Miyazaki doesn’t do major plot threads in minor cases. My mindset entering the dlc was “Killing Radahn is seemingly important to enter the DLC, and I will figure out why” Then the Suppression Pillar: * “All manners of Death wash up here” * I had a weird inkling that I knew what was going to happen. Then, of course the more obvious details like Freyja’s involvement sealed the deal for me. It wasn’t until Ansbach’s quest that we find out what Radahn is being used for, but I somewhat vaguely figured that out together using the contextual clues left within and outside of the DLC prior to these revelations. Sidenote: I want to bring up the original Story Trailer too. This was one of my favourite things to speculate on. Looking back in hindsight, it was incredibly obvious/telling that the Woman who devotes her entire life to Miquella would only want one reason to kill Radahn… to benefit miquella in some way. The Radahn/Malenia/Miquella narrative thread is one of my new favourites in the entire game. Very well executed and built up.
The rune of death removal was what allowed Marika separate/veil the lands of shadow since we know "all manner of death wash up" there it makes sense removing the concept of death would create a separate world there.
One thing that I don’t see enough people remark upon is that becoming a god through the Gate of Divinity does not have any necessary relation to the Elden Ring. When Miquella becomes a god through the Gate of Divinity this has no relation to the Elden Ring, which at this time is still within Marika’s petrified body. This does not mean Marika’s divinity was not becoming a vessel of the Elden Ring. I think it was, but I think the Elden Ring is less important to godhood in general than people tend to assume. I think it’s a common view that the Elden Ring controls the rules of the cosmos as such, but how then can Miquella become the god of a new Age totally without it? Personally, I believe the Elden Ring simply represents Order. Miquella’s is an age of the original kindness of gold without Order, which I understand to be identical to unalloyed gold, and therefore without the Elden Ring. And godhood in itself does not have any necessary relation to Order or the Elden Ring.
I don't think this is the case. The Gate of Divinity seems to be part of the same "Order system" that the Elden Ring is. Miquella's cut ending in the main game explicitly has him as the new host of the Elden Ring, suggesting this is his plan.
“I know now what Velka people felt like” No you don’t. You see the shadows cast on the wall of your cave and you think that you can see the thing, but you only see a shadow. That Velka shit hurt man. It hurt so bad and they borderline taunt us about it.
I think its an interesting philosophical question to think about what 'vows' and 'promises' mean to a demigod child with the power of compulsion and coercion. If it wasnt for that one sentence that really does make it seem indisputable that there was a part of the vow to resurrect Radahn, i think its very easy to think that Miquella's Vow is not with Radahn, but is a one sided delusion of what being selected by your own Two Fingers means. If the Two Fingers choose him to be a god candidate, then it is going to require a consort. Trying to keep in mind his eternal childhood curse and presuming it extends to his lack of wisdom, its not inconceivable to me that this child took the Two Fingers selection as a promise of godhood, and that would imply the promise of a consort, and it makes sense this kid would want his big strong valiant older brother to be his enforcer. Then you end up in this very weird place only a child demigod with godlike powers of sociopathy could end up, convicning himself he's been promised a whole load of things that nobody promised at all ("You have to be my lord, the fingers said I get a lord because I'll be a god.") But, yeah there probably was some lame deal Radahn made where he's resurrected and allowed to fight forever.
This thought occurred to me while listening. What if Melina is the gloam-eyed queen and the godskin hunt that ended with her defeat was in retaliation of her brother being betrayed and sealed in the land of shadows. In her anger at the betrayal, she could have led her followers against the order to retrieve the means to free Mesmer. Then she was defeated and slain by Maliketh and her power, i.e. the rune of death was sealed. She even states in base game that she is burned and bodiless, just like ranni after the night of black knives. Also, her gloam eye is sealed by a claw mark, Maliketh stabs his left claw to unleash the black blade during the fight. Just my thoughts. Could be totally off. Also, still salty about lack of Velka lore.
I LOVE this idea. What if the Melina we see in the base game is a kind of fragment of what she once was (Marika's firstborn daughter who became the GEQ in retaliation after her brother was betrayed, sealed away, etc.). Maybe Marika, out of some kind of weird motherly love, allowed her daughter to be "re-birthed" into a new form after her defeat but with little to no memory of her past self (her past self veiled from her like Marika veiled the Shadowlands/Messmer from the rest of the world). Melina's original self became the GEQ in an attempt to overthrow her mother's order but she was ultimately defeated - and now base-game Melina, as she slowly regains small pieces of who she once was, wants to help us change the world, as she tried to do long ago as the GEQ.
I think that Radagon is Marika's body that she divested to become a god. She needed someone to deal with Rennala so she used the Rune of the Unborn to rebirth her old body and the strand of red hair within the amber egg to metaphorically stitch it back together. After Godfrey was tarnished, Radagon was given the opportunity to "become whole" by fusing with Marika. As is a reoccurring theme in this game, they were broken apart and then reconjoined in a new configuration, just like the Elden Ring. As evidence we have the golden sewing kit that belonged to Radagon and the fact that his scarseal boosts your physical attributes while Marika's boosts your spiritual attributes.
I kinda have a crackhead theory that goes along with your idea that the greater will exists somewhere out in space. Both Ranni and Miquella at their ascension to godhood talk about "1000 year journeys" What if something about becoming god allows one to change the trajectory through space of the celestial body they become the god of? We know from a few sources that the cosmos directly effects the meta physics and "destiny" in the lands between. Maybe when Marika became god she sent the planet in a trajectory away from the greater will? Maybe that's why the fingers eventually lost contact with the greater will? Maybe that's the betrayal?
I don't know if you get to it eventually, but my one stab at how the base game sets up the final boss is the Golden Order Greatsword (I think) quote where Miquella says "O brother, Lord Brother, please die a true death." We all assumed this was meant to reference Godwyn. I think it actually still is! However, I think that it now also applies to Radahn, who Miquella also refers to as "Lord Brother." My theory would be that Miquella and Godwyn had a true promise or vow or pact with each other, probably that Godwyn would be Miquella's Consort, that did not work out. And then, in his grief and confusion, Miquella projected that same scenario onto Radahn. And then it didn't work out AGAIN because he didn't actually die when Malenia fought him. So Miquella's trauma is compounding and he's getting more and more desperate, which leads him to do things he shouldn't be doing, make people do things they wouldn't otherwise do, and make sacrifices he shouldn't be making. EDIT: the above assumes that at least some part of Radahn's vow to Miquella was non-consenting, and based on Miquella's famed ability to "wield his love to shrive clean the hearts of men." Radahn's part of the vow was, I assume, something to the effect of "if you can find someone strong enough to kill me in a fair fight, then I will go along with your crazy schemes." Now that I'm typing this out, it occurs to me that Radahn might have seen Miquella as a child, and not understood that he was "consenting" to a vow or compact or agreement on such a deep emotional and metaphysical level. So from Miquella's perspective, him sending Malenia to fight Radahn is honoring his vow. From Radahn's perspective this is all the Shattering War, and until Malenia speaks those final words to him he might not even have remembered his "vow" to Miquella. The tragedy here seems to be that the "promise" that Radahn made to him is the kind of good-faith "promise" you make to a child, that doesnt' really apply to an adult world. But Miquella never grows up, so his child-logic can reshape the world, and Radahn's own identity and agency. I agree with you that a "proper" Elden Lord would not be tricked into it, but would choose freely. This seems to be why grace does not accept Miquella's Order as legitimate, and why we have to fight then and cannot choose to ally with them like we can with Ranni, Goldmask, etc.
Maybe hot take, but, the idea that it's "poorly done" for there to be no foreshadowing in the base game of Radahn returning as Miquella's consort doesn't really jive well with FromSoft's history of DLC integration. Did anyone "predict" that we'd be fighting Gael and obtaining the Dark Soul in DS3? Did anyone "predict" that we'd be fighting Manus in the abyss in DS1? Did anyone predict we'd be fighting the Orphan of Kos in the Old Hunters? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say no, no one knew any of those things were coming and only afterwards did any of it start to make any amount of sense. I think because of the unusual gap between Elden Ring's release and the DLC release we've all had time to form such strong headcanons and a sense of confidence that we clearly know how all the lore is supposed to work, so this reveal is giving everyone an ego check. Moral of the story: stop expecting to predict FromSoft DLC. It's never worked before, it's never going to work in the future. Yeah Radahn 2 was unexpected, but again, looking at all the context the DLC gave us, it makes sense now. There were pieces of the puzzle missing, and now they've been put into place. I really don't think this is a point we should be holding against the DLC in the slightest. Edit: also, all of the other FromSoft games I’ve played already had their DLC out when I played the first time, so I did everything up to the final area, then did DLC when I was appropriately leveled, then beat the final boss. Everyone is thinking of Miquella’s story as the conclusion to the DLC, but it’s just a side story, by definition. It’s just another tale of gods and their ambitions that ultimately culminates yet again in our confrontation with the Elden Beast. Given that context, Radahn returning shouldn’t be seen as “the final fight”, rather it’s just one more part of the whole story. So the idea that it comes out of nowhere shouldn’t really be a mark against it, just the same way Fortisax being what you fight inside Fia’s dream shouldn’t be considered “bad” because it’s unpredictable, nor Astel showing up right before getting to Ranni, nor any of the other surprising and unpredictable things that are all over this story.
FromSoftware made the decision to dip their toes into epic fantasy, and made that dip a specific marketing item for the game. It is absolutely fair game to discuss the degree to which they fell short of executing on it skillfully.
@@Tohlemiach I responded to your point by showing that they're not owed a free pass based on their past work; they made a deliberate decision to market their newest game as moving into the realm of epic fantasy, with a lot of marketing and interviews hyping up the fact that they'd gotten an epic fantasy author involved, so no one is wrong for noticing that they did not succeed by the typical standards of epic fantasy. There's nothing unfair about judging a company on whether it succeeded at delivering the thing it was promising people when it took their money.
@@Eladelia you ignored my point that you’re still judging it differently than all of their other DLCs and your justification that it’s epic fantasy is an extremely poor one. Just because it’s epic fantasy now rather than gothic fantasy or steampunk does not mean that now it’s okay to criticize the final boss for not being predictable based on lore from the base game.
An interesting detail that I haven’t seen anyone touch on is that only the children Marika is the mother of (with the exception of Godwyn) carry curses. The children of Rennala are not inherently cursed.
We see in the story trailer that the Scadutree was already there, fully grown, by the time Messmer invaded. So unless there were 2 giant trees over the Lands Between at the time, or the Scadutree just appeared out of nowhere, I don't think the separation of the Land of Shadow happened during Messmer's invasion. The veil must have been there before. And as for how Messmer's army got there, it's simple. Marika allowed them to enter.
Yeah, there’s multiple pieces of lore that indicate the crusade began a fair amount of time after the Liurnian wars, when the Golden Order was already well established, and yet we hear in the story trailer that there was “an affair from which gold arose and shadow too was formed”. Since we know now that the gate of divinity ritual doesn’t seem to require any input from the Elden ring, and we already knew that the defining principles of the Golden Order come from removing the rune of death from the ring, it seems like the timeline is that Marika becomes a god -> Marika and Godfrey conquer the giants and grow a tree -> Marika gains control of the Elden ring and creates her golden order, simultaneously veiling the shadow lands and creating the Scadutree, possibly as a larger form of the sealing thorns that veil Enir-Illim -> then the Liurnian wars -> then Messmer’s crusade
I think the scadurtree's initial purpose was just to block out anyone from accessing the gate and only later did marika also command it to create a veil to separate the lands or maybe she created another spell for that effect.
The Death Knight armor say's Godwyn's personal guard quested to find his cadaver. This may suggest that the Shadow Realm was removed from the Lands Between after Godwyn's death, and so perhaps Messmer could have been born and went on his crusade later on in the timeline as well.
My headcanon goes like this. The Numen are from 'another world'. They arrived upon the world on which the Lands Between, Lands of Shadow (our world) exists via giant spaceships that appear to us as massive rune-covered coffins. The Numen were not like the Hornsent that occupied this region, and as a result their special powers appeared as magic, occult etc. As a result, they were called Shaman. They relocated to a village of their own, a place where they could prosper without fear of being attacked, farmed into jars etc because one of their traits as Shaman/Numen was an inherent ability to graft or be grafted. They were 'built different', more pliable, more compliant. Down the line, this could explain Godrick's ability to graft. And if all of Marika's descendents are also Numen, could explain their own great powers. The Hornsent staged a genocide against what was clearly a more powerful race. And wiped out all but one, in the shape of Marika. Anything of a high enough technology would surely be consided magic, think of Sam Raimi's Army of Darkness as an easy reference. Or, similarly Back to the Future. The Numen must have seemed so beyond anything supernatural the locals had ever witnessed. But at this stage, they were still a minority, easily squashed - or at least the small Shaman tribe that did not descend as Nox to the eternal cities were. Messmer would be Marikas weapon of mass destruction and tool of revenge for this crime. *It's half the fun isn't it, coming up with our own theories?* I assume the whole ascend to godhood parable, their true abilities etc not being obvious or might just not have occurred to them yet, or become fully realised reminds me of how Superman was just a 'regular man' on his home planet, it was only once he arrived on Earth where his abilities were fully realised eg. his planet had a super oppressive gravity endowing him with the ability to fly on ours.
It's funny; the DLC actually made me MORE convinced that Marika was involved with the Night of Black Knives. She's been a plotter and a betrayer from the beginning, one who has no problem using her children as tools (Messmer) if it means getting what she wants
I would be beyond shocked if from soft out of nowhere added like a 3 to 5 GB patch, adding some content or a cave or two just to add to that lore regarding why it was rahdan
Miquella could be just thanking you as his loyal blade and champion of the contest because all throught the game you are Miquella's loyal blade by killing Mohg and winning the contest.
Highly disagree. She basically forsakes the world to the death blight, which is as bad as Dungeater's ending. It's incredibly naive of her to think she can take on the Outer Gods in THEIR domain, as if she's as strong as Radahn or Marika. Ranni's ending is you dying in space fighting something WAY more powerful than the Elden Beast, and her just looking for another consort because her spirit endures.
@@geordiejones5618 with the rune of death fully unleashed in every ending death bright and those who live in death are problems that will quite literally sort themselves out
@@geordiejones5618 Wat. Dungeater is the second best ending by returning the world back to the time of the Crucible. Natural order comes back. Like the Hornsent and their babaric way or not, that is the literal natural state of the world as it supposed to be. And no, you're not dieing or fighting anything in Rammis ending. And no, you have no indication whatsoever on how powerful Ranni really is.
Yet again another Ranni simp who completely looks over the glooming implications of her vision. With no lord to rule over the lands between( seeing as the player and Ranni leave THe lands between), you're only allowing anarchy and more potential for conflict to arise in the future. Not to mention, Ranni is not a good person, she caused the shattering war for her own selfish ambitions, had her own brother murdered, lied about who did it. She is allowed to make these kinds of decisions and that what makes her character interesting, but this in no way makes her ending the best. If anything your "best" endings are between the Age of Order and the Lord of Frenzied Flame. If you really want a good explanation why, I'll be glad to explain it.
Regarding the promise, there is this anime trope with a childhood promise that one side forgets or simply thinks it was just that a joke among kids. In this case it could be just that Radahn just made a promise to what he saw as an emotional child (Miq maybe was actually young in year then and sounds rather emotional) to cheer him up. He then forgot about it, or, more likely, thought the kid would grow up and forget about it. Rad's request (if there was any) could have been a joke, not something to be taken seriously, but to cheer the kid up, I don't think they were negotiating seriously. But maybe I'm missing something, or some hints were obscured in translation. The whole if I die and you revive me sounds like a really weird thing to say to a kid. But for Miq, as we know, never grows up the moment was very important for him, maybe he asked for the promise after finding he is an empyrean and will/might be a god. Years later, if Miq brings this up, Radahn might have forgotten or never gave a deeper thought to this idea(just something to cheer up child) and refuse due to ideological differences (if Miq left the path of golden order fundamentalism or even already thought of starting a new age). But maybe I'm missing something, or some hints were obscured in translation.
The only real motivations we know od radahns are that he was bored of earthly challenges to the point where he challenged the stars. We also know he idolized the prior elden lords. To die in battle would provide proof of a sufficient challenge and then to become elden lord even after that? Sounds like his motivations to a tee. I cant imagine that he would disagree to that offer from miquella.
Mechanically I really enjoy the final boss. I just think it could've been better if Mohg shinned thru just a little bit more. As it is now, there's just one blood slash explosion and a few omen horns on Radahn's armor. I wish there were a few more Mohg attacks. It also would've been cool if the music in the first phase was a mash up of Radahn's and Mohg's themes. I do love the Radahn chorus remix, but Mohg should've had more of a presence. This team has proven they are musical masterminds. Im sure they could've meshed Radahn and Mohg's theme into an amazing first phase track
I don't get why they didn't have Godwyn+Miquella be the final boss. It was better set up by base game, and seeing a demigod in battle we haven't seen fight yet would've been way more hype than Radahn part 2. Not to mention it would have fit Godwyns - Balder similarities to have him return.
Snakes are in the middle of everything here. There's even a snake skin in Merika's village. Maybe they are somehow related to godhood? Something that Rykard and the Gloam-Eyed Queen maybe tried to emulate later? Some black flame spells are spiraling; the Godslayer Sword is full of spirals, spirals, and double spirals, like mating snakes or the Caduceus. I don't know I might be wrong here haha
I wonder if Godfrey wouldve been against the crusades against the hornsent considering two of his children were omens and how the crucible knights served him. Maybe he was banished, so he'd be out of the way.
He has no problems killing Giants or Storm people. Also Marika banished Godfrey with the expectation of him and the Tarnished to come back and take the Elden Ring. She was already planning the Shattering at that point. “In Marika's own words. Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring. Grow strong in the face of death. Warriors of my lord. Lord Godfrey.” I feel like people forget about this line…like a lot.
@@ViviRavan A lot of people act like Marika betrayed Godfrey, and I never really saw it like that. And Godfrey doesn't seem enraged about it when he comes back. He's like "Alright, I'm back. Time to be Elden Lord again." I mean this is Godfrey we're talking about. I doubt it bothered him much being sent off to wage war in the badlands. War is basically Godfrey's favorite hobby. And it's not like someone wrestled Godfrey down and put him in chains to send him off, what gigachad could have pulled that off? He left willingly
Hoarah Loux, the chieftain of the badland, was the OG murderhobo who went to play other game waiting for the DLC for more things to kill. Marika started her regime with an indifferent murderhobo and found herself being with a different murderhobo, the Tarnished, once again
A good point was made here. When thinking about the lore of these games you need to balance what could logically have happened with how much thematic sense it would make. Yes there's probably proof somewhere that Godwyn wore buckets on his head for fun, but that would have nothing to do thematically with the story so it wouldn't be lore
Imo the tree fragments are not the issue, it's the escalated boss design. What I mean is these are Sekiro or Bloodborne bosses, which isn't bad exactly, the issue is they are bosses designed for a different style of from game. Elden Ring, base and DLC. Is effectively dark souls 3 rules for the player, but the bosses are running on Sekiro and Bloodborne rules. This is why 99% of weapon arts are worthless. The bosses attack too fast with such tiny openings, basically making every boss kind of the same. A press roll simulator. That's the key issue imo. It also kind of restricts the way you play.
A couple lore details (sourced from Quelaag): The Helphen Steeple looks a lot like the Shadow Fort with Messmer's red fire as the ruby at its peak. If true, then dying in battle seems to be a method for souls to reach the Shadowlands intact. The divine beast we fight at the base of the tower is a horned lion. Radahn is represented by a lion, and Mohg's body gave him horns.
Also, Malenia and her soldiers are Valkyries, whose purpose is to usher souls of warriors to Valhalla. She fails, but we succeed. Death among the passions of battle seems to empower the soul
As someone whose favorite character is Godwyn It wasn’t an expectation for him to be in the DLC, but it was a hope And when you imply that with his prayer he actually referred to Godwyn as “O brother” and nowhere in the base game does it say it show Radahn’s relation to Miquella, that’s why so many people like myself were hoping it was him I saw the Golden Rays of hair open from the gate and truly thought Godwyn was back, and look the lore and implications are great but speaking from personal experience I think why some people were disappointed, was because the reveal that there wasn’t anything more to Godwyn, for the people that wanted more, was just, a letdown Otherwise tho the DLC was amazing I can’t stress the beauty and dedication fromsoft put into this game But that’s why for me at least I was slightly disappointed by the end Plus some people get stuck on bosses like myself and don’t feel happy when they’re done More so just happy the annoying chore is over with Hand in hand those 2 didn’t leave the best initial taste in my mouth
No offense, but if you thought Godwyn was stepping out of the gate, then you either missed half the questlines and dialogue, or were coping insanely hard. Miquella entered the gate of *Divinity* to become a god. How could you see someone stepping out of the gate and think "OH!! THAT MUST BE GODWYN!!" like no it's Miquella--they told you it would be Miquella. Everybody knows Miquella's plan now. It's Miquella.
godwyn is permanently dead, his soul was destroyed and his body was corrupted beyond repair, he was killed by destined death and if godwyn was just ressurected it would contradict the lore of destined death, I would of just been so utterly pissed off if they brought back godwyn because now maliketh and destined death cant even do its job right
@@rangopistacho6928 Acktually 🤓 Fia used the "warmth" (read soul/runes) of Godwyn, as well as other warriors, to create the Rune of Death, so technically Godwyn is resurrected in the base-game if you did Fia's questline.
@@TheMightyNovac I'd call it more of a rebirth than a resurrection. More akin to the Soul of Cinder than the original Godwyn coming back. That still doesn't change the fact that Godwyn's story actually has closure, but people are comparing him to Velka of all things.
Messmer might know what being a Tarnished is because they were created at the same time as his crusade started. His whole ethos, mission statement, purpose, is to burn in his flame all those stripped by the Grace of Gold. The only reason why he'd constantly repeat that, and his fire knights too, is if that's what the Hornsent are. Stripped by the Grace of Gold, marked for extermination. So Marika removing the Grace of the hornsent could be the same moment she stripped Godfrey of Grace. But she told Godfrey ahead of time, to know, and prepare for his Long March. The Tarnished were hounded after all.
miquella charms people with his great rune, he broke his rune and can't charm anymore (only in the second fase when he is a full god), so radhan was not beeing controled , he was fulfilling his vow he made with miquella.
Yes. I think people just don’t want that do be the case. Especially when he would essentially be just like his Father figures. Godfrey and Radagon who are both literally Elden Lords, why would he oppose to the very thing his inspirations were.
you can't say "he can no longer charm people" and then say "except when he achieves god hood" you are stretching a lot to fill in a hole. also, he discards his rune during the dlc, radahn isnt confirmed to be alive to be running around uncharmed, only when you get to the arena which could be miquella already a god by then so he's charmed the entire fight. to play devils advocate, if miquella can no longer charm people while we are in dlc, it doesn't mean he couldn't charm him in the past which is whenever this flash back is most likely taking place, there seems to be some tunnelvisioning on the fact he broke his rune to charm that it means he never charmed radahn in the first place when those are not related. for anyone reading that doesn't know, final phase miquella grab is a charm debuff that you can cure if you use his broken rune as a consumable on yourself, the description of the rune says to use it to break his charm. which means he is still prince charming he just broke his current charms. and at the end of the day it doesn't really matter. the worst part about this, is charmed or not, no ones motivates are any more explained in the dlc besides miquella's, we don't learn anything new about radahn as a person with this debate, it's just an argument on semantics. the base game is still a giant question mark with the same speculation, and while the concept of stopping the stars to postpone fate was an interesting story element. we now have the crusading and trying to kill him for body snatching purposes as little timmy level story writing plot twist
The whole Radahn/Miquella promise seems to me like a promise between children. Miquella's continued youth is symbolic of never maturing, and never letting go of that promise. Miquella fianlly discard's his youthful body and ideals throughout the Land of Shadows in order to fulfill that naive aspiration. This is why Miquella appears to have aged when we face him in the final boss fight. Miquella's story is about a late coming of age.
I'm guessing, as gross as it seems, it is the kid of Miquella and Mogh. We know it comes from the "womb" of the Miquella haligtree body. We know the body inside is an omen that is identical to Morgott.
An "omen", in botany, is the root stock reasserting itself, supplanting the grafted branches. Remember, the Erd Tree isn't the Great Tree. The Erd Tree is a beech tree, the Great Tree is coniferous 🌲 We can see the difference in the pre-Godfrey architecture, like Stormveil Castle and Castle Morne and the Volcano Manor. As for the spiral...?smough, that's how trees grow universally, the roots intertwine so they can push themselves skyward; as in towards the heavens...? Like the Tower...? The spiral is just distilling the tree worship to its fundamental shape, two forces coexisting, pushing and pulling, to flourish.
Idk man, its just Occams razor, hearing both of them rationalizing how Radahn was NOT charmed only made my position stronger, Miquella was indeed mindcontroling him, its simply what makes the most sense.
Not really. The fact that miquella had to fulfil something in order for Radahn to join him suggests the occams razor in this case is that he wasnt charmed, that he agreed on certain terms, which is unlike any of the other cases of Miquella's charm that we know so far.
@@_Cerb_ Yah you can’t just invoke Occam’s Razor with a lack of information. It’s like saying because someone is wearing yellow means they are a banana because bananas are yellow. Forgetting the human flesh parts.
I think I have a pretty solid case on what were the saints used for. They were making trees out of them. Even the willow in Belurat speaks. If you invade next to it it will say: "Forsake me not" when you return to your world.
Radahn is literally called *Promised* Consort Radahn, meaning he promised to be Miquella’s consort and wasn’t brainwashed. It’s not like he’s called _Bewitched_ Consort Radahn or _Charmed_ Consort Radahn, he’s the *Promised* Consort, the titles don’t lie. Morgott is Morgott, the Omen King because he’s an Omen and a King. Godfrey is Godfrey, First Elden Lord because Godfrey is the first Elden Lord. Malenia is Malenia, Blade of Miquella because Malenia is Miquella’s blade. But Promised Consort Radahn didn’t promise to be a consort, like, how? Make it make sense.
Personally that is still my perspective even if it doesnt fit perfectly, for instance i dont know if Mohg, Lord of Blood has any real weight now because he was somewhat connected to the formless mother but in the end he was just a tool for miquella to get what they wanted. Not what i would call a lord. But that is just my perspective, i can understand and respect yours as well🤙 Just another thought too, someone else brought up that miquilla charms people through promises as he does with us so it could still be up in the air
I agree with Mario. As to that point on Mogh, Formless Mother followers don't all necessary know they worship her. She's worshipped when blood is shed (like in the Land of Reeds embroiled in civil war), and sometimes gets followers that realize how to draw power from their mother who doesn't seem to have much of a criteria as long as you wound her and spread her blood or make blood spill. Even simple-minded followers like the Blood Fiends show a lot of power with primitive worship, while aware followers like Mogh, Sanguine Nobles, Ansbach, Okina, Esgar Priest of Blood, Varre etc can draw much more power from her.
Do people even read the text in these games or just listen to lore videos? Part of the implicit storytelling that FromSoftware does so well is including the bias that seeps through certain items. As if Miquella can't just lie. What makes more sense? That a warlord who can HALT THE STARS would agree to an Age of Compassion (as in the end of war) or that the Promised Consort is essentially a childhood ideation of Radahn, just a fancier Frankenstein's monster of merged soul and body of Radahn and Mogh?
@@geordiejones5618 That is a good point. Freyja does believe Miquella promises her that he would be able to wage eternal war but I don't see how that aligns unless it's against outer gods or something.
There's no specificity in who the "promised" refers to. Did Radahn make a promise, or did Miquella promise the spot to him? Judging by how Miquella talks to you when he grabs you, it seems like he is a promiser
miquella wanted radahn to be his consort because he was everything that miquella couldn’t be naturally.no matter how many ppl miquella charmed he could not be strong like his brother, as noble as him.He saw Radahn as a great person.Radahn probably knew of miquella’s promise but had his own shit to do in cailed.
Uh unfortunately nope from me, i just beat Messmer and dont want anything to be spoiled. Ill watch it in a week or so. But leaving comment for engagement and all that which helps you tubers :D But i would really want to hear some lore discussion because i cant stop thinking about what i came across in a small village yesterday before going to sleep... i think i even dreamed a bit of it XD
Godefroy is the key to all of this
Daigo with a gun could have been elden lord. Wasted opportunity, Mr. Zaki.
We get Godefroy working, beacuse hes a funnier character then we've seen before.
@@umaoyabun5336 truuuuuu
Godefroy the true Elden Lord.
Bro he only said this in an out of context clip talking about boss movesets!!1!
As always - wonderful chatting this through with you.
Love the podcast!
I’m hoping one of you see this as I’ve yet to hear anything from any Lore RUclipsr, there is this theory on Reddit gaining traction that Marika/Radagon seduced the GEQ.
If you look at the statues of the DLC, the headless ones, they line up with the Rune of Death which is intrinsically tied to GEQ. Same with Fire and Snakes the two most heretical things to the Erdtree and the Golden Order.
What is more heretical than a previous order? Many in Rome hated their own Greek origins such as Catou.
The Seduction and The Betrayal, who better to seduce than the leader of the order you wish to ruin?
Messmer and Melina have their left eyes sealed. Both potentially had Heterochromia one golden eye and another Gloam.
The spiral of the Godslayers sword, the Snake like appearance of the Godskin, a serpent god that wields flame. What do you all think?
I believe the suduction and betrayal was of Godfrey as his culture seems like that of a warlord born from the hornsent civilization, the man who slew the storm lion sarosh and enherited his rule. the two of them coming tother like Miquell and radahn as a symbol of his right to rule.
marika seduced him to gain power and build a new empire togther that started out on good terms with the hornsent.
but once she was done with him and it was time to scrub away the old ways and purge the unclean she banished him, his soldiers and then radagon came back to lyndell after some time and Messmer started his cursade.
as for the golden string marika grabs in the trailer.
I believe thats supposed to be the hair of one of her family members, perhaps her grandmother. shoved into the jars.
you can see the same chains and jewelery as the innards women near the bottom of the sceen in that shot.
idk if the grandmother tree we find is supposed to literllaly be her corpse or just an effigy.
Diving into the lore in the dlc a fair bit.
With the Shamans fusing together from pussing wounds and made to fit inside a jar etc., I had a thought.
Do you think that the Shamans were turned into jars to symbolize the Crucible, were all life once blended together?
We learn that the Hornsent were religious zealots.
I haven't heard or read from anyone with a similar idea.
What do you think?
Crucibles used to be made out of clay, exclusively, in our own history.
It might be possible melanie is charmed, might be worth seeing if she behaviours any different if you face her after Miquelle's charm is broken.
@@alephnole7009Was Godfrey not from the badlands? Don't you think we would have got some lore tying him to the hornsent if he was?
Miquella : Brother be my consort!
Radahn : Ha, over my dead body!!
Miquella: That can be arranged....
Marika is the spirit tuner Hewg is indebted to. With the Shamans being Shrine Maidens in japanese, who do spirit rituals, I bet Marika met/saved Hewg when she was taken to Bonny village and saved him from being jarred. Years later heres Roderika who's a spitting image of young Marika, Roderika herself being a young blonde haired exiled nobile from another land, I bet she's a numen.
With the importance of names, Roderika always seemed suspicious to me since it also ends with -rika. Guess this makes sense.
We also find Roderika in despair thanks to Godrick grafting her friends, which is a similar process to how they make the jars in the Land of Shadow. Sure, she could probably be bummed out just due to your regular grafting but maybe it's basically a PTSD response. @@arch_imedes7108
@@arch_imedes7108DAMN that's brilliant lol why do both your comments make so much sense
This is my favorite new theory
It was staring in our face all this time...Hewg only ever mentions Marika by name. Brilliantly put together. Well done!
Regarding radahn being charmed - at the start of p2 he starts glowing red, almost like the true radan is waking up. Then miquella appears and he instantly begins to glow gold again - before miquella literally attaches to his back above him, almost like he is a marionette. Its not necessarily a smoking gun and could be explained as just a cool visual for the fight - but an interesting detail to consider
The red glow is probably also because of his Mohg body. He was about to go lord of blood on us but Miquella calms/charms him.
@@lordpen7126 Could have been a three phase fight... go into "lord of blood mode" around 66%, and then Miquella comes in around at 40% or so, then we'd have less of that insane phase 2.
@@lordpen7126 Gotta get that Nihil going
Serosh was to suppress Godfrey's natural blood lust and will for combat. Miquella could be doing a very similar thing for radahn who also lives for combat
That actually makes a whole lot of sense. That red could maybe also be mohg's body rebelling. It is odd that the only time we see that red aura it gets snuffed out by Miquella.
Adding a 5th talisman slot would have been nice. Another way to give us a little more power in the dlc while adding to the base game.
I don't think they wanted to do something that would be so hugely impactful when you went back to the base game.
@@Eladelia It could work like Terraria's expert and master modes where the extra talisman is only effective while you're in the DLC area. Have the item that unlocks it be "Phantom Talisman Pouch" or whatever to signify it works differently.
This would make an enormous, balance-damaging difference to the game. An extra slot isn't just one isolated bonus, it potentially changes how builds work and it's just too strong compared to the other additions they were evidently comfortable with
@@LAK_770 lol no it wouldn't. He said one more slot, not 15. Adding one more slot would've been great for rounding out more builds.
I interpreted miquella and redahns promise, as another example of miyazakis idea of "heroic traits" being corrupted with the demigods.
That miquellas heroic trait is innocence, and his flaw is naivety. He naively asked redahn to be his consort at a young age, and radahn requested of him something he considered impossible, maybe his defeat, or when the "eternal" golden order dies, or something-- and miquella took it to heart and obsessed over it and did unimaginable things to achieve it.
This makes so much sense
That's possible, but if so it's just an argument that Radahn is someone who's going around making vows in bad faith in a world where turtle pope tells us clearly that vows are precious and not to be toyed with. That doesn't really reflect better on Radahn.
@@Eladelia If it puts the character in a good light, it's probably not true. This is the core assumption for all of the most powerful characters, because only powerless characters get to be truly good (like Boc). Radahn being a baddie who went around lying to other powerful characters to mess with their plans and advance his own agenda is a very solid theory. It would also explain why Malenia attacks him.
@@Eladelia Maybe they made the vow when they were younger but miquella still held onto that vow but radahn grew up to see the things differently.
It was never Godwyn. We saw in the base game that anything involving Godwyn failed. That's the whole point of Miquella's curse: Nascence. Nothing he does or attempts can come to fruition or completeness.
And that's why Radahn being Miquella's promised consort doesn't make any sense. Miquella's plan to obtain godhood worked out flawlessly, he's only defeated in the end because the Tarnished was just literally stronger than a god and the strongest demigod working together.
What would have made infinitely more sense is if Radahn was plan B, and that not only was Godwyn Miquella's promised consort, but Radahn being obsessed with the golden lineage and honorable death, was disgusted my Miquella's attemps to resurrect Goldwyn and haulted the stars to stop the solar eclipse.
With Radahn's recent death, and Mogh's body on hand, Miquella crually enslaved his enemy causing him to become everything he hates.
It's the kind of poetic tragedy fromsoft loves to have in their stories, and wouldn't need any alteration to the gameplay machanics, just some item descriptions altered.
@@SIRslipperyasp91 Miquella’s plan worked out AFTER he divested himself of his body. He has to rid himself of the curse for it to work but by that time Godwyn was good and dead. Godwyn caring for Miquella doesn’t automatically make him the best candidate. And the night of the black knives proved that. Radahn was always stronger but also kind. Miquella needed both.
What stuck out to me was Freyja mentioning Jerren not being happy with Radahn's rebirth. I do not it is rebirth specifically that Jerren would object to, but the act of putting one soul into a different body, much like how we put Sellen's "soul" into another body. He also swore an oath of "honorable death" with Radahn (per his set) and he objected to the use of primeval glinstone hearts to overtake the bodies of other people. He is also someone obsessed with stars and destiny.
Another point: Miyazaki has stated in an interview that Radahn has a hard time accepting change, which is likely why he holds the stars in stasis. He was the "god of war" in vers 1.00 and an age of brainwashed passivity would have disgusted him.
Citation of interview?
Jerren is a bloody finger, so he serves Mogh too. It'll pain Jerren for the same reasons Ansbach objects.
@@NoahKunin it has been a while, but I remember the interview referencing Leonard specifically and Radahn's stubbornness in refusing to give up his steed despite growing too large for him.
Maybe Radahn’s part of the vow was “I’ll be your lord when I’m cold in the ground.” Basically saying that he doesn’t want to be his lord, but Miquella took that vow literally.
I really like this idea on it, we'll never know for sure which is how Im sure they wanted it, but this is a cool way of thinking about it.
I love everything about this, that'd be so funny.
Over my dead body😂
I don't think so. Miquella says "if WE honor OUR part of the vow, promise youll be my escort" which to me implies Radhan was not part of the "we" and never made any vows. I'm not sure who the "we" is
@@whirlwind872 interesting
Lorewise, it makes very little sense for Radahn to have consented to the permanent destruction of his homeland (he is trying his best to protect Selia from the celestial threat even in the zombified state he's been reduced to by that point in the story). Furthermore, Malenia's provocative whispering into his ear just before unleashing the Scarlet Flower on Caelid seems more like a cruel taunt than a calculated move in a larger scheme between the two parties.
I don’t t think he had any idea that malenia would throw away her dignity in a desperate measure to defeat him on behalf of her brother. I’m not sure that anyone but miquella and malenia herself where aware of the full extent of her power in regards to the rot sealed inside her.
@@W_W-f8y Seems clear to me what he consented was a battle, thats very in character. But he wouldnt have thought the outcome to be this destructive. In the same way he likely never thought hed be a corpse eating rotting zombie at the end of his days.
@@_Cerb_ Why didn't they fight in a remote location or controlled environment where their superpowers wouldn't pose a risk to others if that's the case? I really can't picture Radahn agreeing to be revived into someone else's body whatever the case, it doesn't seem in character for him at all
@user-gh6sn3wd7v Agreeing to a battle doesn't mean he agreed to the whole bloom thing. This was the first time she ever bloomed so it's not likely he knew she could do that. He probably agreed to a duel or was invaded and fought her, and then she bloomed and basically ran away by proxy leaving him with nothing to show for the battle.
@@W_W-f8yI mean they probably were in a remote location, with both of their armies….the rot spread across an entire region of the map so it wouldn’t of really mattered where they fought if the blast radius is the size of Caelid
It must've hurt Marika pretty badly for her golden child to be the prince of DEATH, the removal of which her entire order, godhood and identity is based on. Not only did she lose a child but her entire foundation. No wonder she was pushed to the brink
Kind of explains why she got so fed up and shattered the Elden ring, she probably felt that all her sacrifices were for nothing and that she failed to create the eternal golden order she wanted, so she got fed up and started a competition between her kids to become the next ruler.
all her enemies manifested through her children . Death was just very late to the party
She was the one to orchestrate the assassination.
@@ZZWWYZ Death also appeared in the most brutal way (unless she had to give birth to two horned babies lol)
@@mateusgreenwood1096 I disagree. I believe she'd not gain anything from that. She could've shattered the ring regardless if she wanted
Alright the discussion on the omen has given me a theory, what if Marika sent Messmer to destroy the hornsent BECAUSE they were causing the omen curse in response to whatever betrayal Marika had done too them? Marika essentially became a god, usurped their position as the leading power in the lands between and went off on her own with her followers. The hornsent, bitter about being tossed aside and forgotten implanted themselves into the new erdtree culture by sending vengeful spirits of their dead to curse some children in erdtree society to be born with aspects of the crucible. I feel like this explains more why Marika waited so long to actually destroy the hornsent instead of doing it immediately after becoming a god, she felt that her betrayal of them was enough punishment for what they were doing to the shaman/numen, but when the omen curse appeared she realized the only way to stop it was to wipe out the hornsent entirely. This could also be why the furnace golems were created, to destroy the hornsent in body AND SPIRIT so that they could no longer use HORNSENT SPIRITS to create the omen curse. Omen are basically just people that have been stuffed full of hornsent spirits, which is why they can spew spirits and why they are described as being tormented by spirits.
I LOVE THIS
The Hornsent occupy a similar capacity that the Fire Giants did, only, each curse has an indirect impact on Marika. The Crucible manifests in Morgott & Mohg, the Fell God's influence flows through Radagon's red hair.
Interesting theory.
I like to think Marika did sent Messmer to kill hornsent before she was a god. That the gate of divinity was created cause Marika needed tons of corpses. So she choose hornsent as her revenge.
As for the omen curse. Well we know that different fire in the game is used for different thing. That spirit can exist even if the body is burn away. They state spirits are eternal but only frenzy flames can kill them permanently. So it possible Messmer flame can only destroy the body but not the spirit. Because Marika seal the rune of death away and basically try to eliminate other death religion. This cause the hornsent spirits to know longer be contain, rested or destroy. So they inflicted the people.
@@gunzkiller101 I feel like the story trailer contradicts this: showing Messmer's purge after the segment where Marika goes through the divine gate and having the Scadutree already exist during the purge. Dunno if there's concrete evidence ingame though
@@minerman60101 didn’t think about the trailer in the context of the time line. I guess that makes sense.
Miquella ask Radhan to be his consort and the second part of the Vow was and i quote General Radhan
"Over my dead body kid"
Miquella: "Aight, bet."
Radhan was probably super confident that the vow was nothing to him. He was sure he would win.
Makes sense. He would've defeated Malenia too if she hadn't forsaken her honor and nuked him. Even then, Radahn still kept fighting until we finished him off. I wonder if Miquella was playing the long game, weakening him with Rot and waiting for Ranni to inevitably send Blaidd and her consort to finish the job. That assumes Miquella was even aware of Ranni's goals and her reliance on the movement of the stars.
"Would you lose against Malenia?"
"Well, If she fully unleashes her Scarlet Rot, it might give me a little trouble."
"But would you lose?"
"Nah, I'd win."
@@Koshbiel Now we know what Malenia whispered in Radahn's ear: "You were magnificent general Radahn. I will remember you for as long as I live."
Little did Radhan know, the Fraud Malenia was in cahoots with the binding vow merchant
silly
Approximately an hour and a half of two people stumbling through the dark that is the Elden Ring lore
🤓 "The video description reads:"
In Marika's own spoken words:
@@Mattin_Satteohaha 😂
I've always been of the mindset that Radahn locked down the stars to stop Ranni's plan, and the idea that he would do the same to stop Miquella's plan as well fits into that mindset. We know that Radahn was always a champion of the Golden Order, he learned about outer powers through his gravitational studies with the Alabaster Lord, and he was a Carian just as much as Ranni. If his fate is to be something other than the Lion of the Golden Order, he himself could deny this fate by sealing the stars.
We know why Radahn held the stars. It’s was to save Sellia.
“The Starscourge Conflict
Radahn alone holds Sellia secure
And stands tall, to shatter the stars” - Caelid Sword Monument
I think it was just a side effect of him locking down the stars while at war with them to protect Sellia
@@ViviRavan There are signs that point to the falling stars that threatened Sellia being brought about by Radahn himself; that he made the Scarscourge Conflict in order to be the hero he saw himself as. It could very well be that it was also a cover for his true motives behind conquering the stars in such a way.
@@inktoxicant There is nothing suggesting that. If you can provide proof of this then by all means.
@@ViviRavan Lokey makes a good case for it in their summary of Radahn's lore under the "A Hero Made" segment. Radahn's castle having a Carian hemicylium to the east to monitor the movements of the stars and summon them forth, and Radahn learning his Collapsing Stars spell (called Starcrusher in Japanese) specifically to challenge the stars. He brought on the conflict in order to make a legend, he is the challenger, and he pretty much put Sellia in the path of disaster with the confidence that he alone could stop it and make a legend from it.
metyr being more ancient than the elden ring itself is so interesting to me
It just makes sense that Radahn was initially charmed. We know that Miquella charms through making promises based on what happens when Radahn grabs you in the fight. He grabs you and makes you a promise. This promise results in you becoming charmed into vowing yourself into his service. What makes the most sense is that Radahn was charmed, but this charm was broken when the Elden Ring was shattered, similar to what we see in the game when Miquella breaks his Great Rune. Then Malenia has to go to Caelid to force Radahn to honor the vow.
Maybe the power of radahn’s rune corrupted him. We know that the runes corrupt an aspect of the demigod, maybe in Radahn’s case it made him want honor or conquest so badly that he left behind his vow to miquella.
Best theory so far, makes sense, love it!
You're forgetting the demigods only receive their great runes after the shattering. If anything, Miquella's power to charm would have been enhanced when the eldenring was shattered and he received his great rune.
That doesn’t prove he has to make promises to use his power… like at all bro
In your case, he grabs and makes you a promise without your input, with emphasis on your heart stolen. In Radahn's case they talked and he had set a condition Miquella had to fulfil for him to agree and do his own part, without it its never happening. I dont think thats the same.
Hear me out here: The Gloam Eyed Queen had Messmer and Melina with Marika.
This explains the GeQ's weird place in the timeline, all of the Melina connections, as well as a better explanation for Messmer's snake associations.
I've always been a GeQ = Melina believer in the past but one thing that erked me was that Melina just isn't very... Motherly? Like for one thing, she's small. I highly doubt someone of Melina's stature would be able to *birth* an entire apostasy of snake people, but thats a nitpick. In the story Melina often mentions her mother, which to me, tells me the narrative treats Melina as a daughter, rather than a mother.
I believe Melina's lack of iconography in Golden Order society is because she's less so Marika's daughter than the Gloam Eyed Queen's Daughter. She learned her teachings, she learned about the importance of death and birth rather than eternal life, and she has the power of death sealed in her eye. (Speaking of sealing things in eyes, Messmer too has the Abyssal serpent sealed in his eye, and I think this makes a lot more sense if both Melina and Messmer are the GeQ's kids, they both have powers of hers sealed behind their left and right eye respectively.)
As a follow up to the last point, I don't believe Marika was the mother who gave Melina her duty, I think it was the GeQ. Her duty is to act as kindling, and to burn down the erdtree, and while Marika does go against the Greater Will, it's completely against her interest to burn down the Erdtree. This is why Melina is so chill with being burned alive, her own mother instilled in her a philosophy that death makes way for life, and that its both necessary and beautiful in a way.
Lastly some misc things which make me skeptical about GeQ = Melina.
- Her fighting style being the same as the Black Knife assassins would be strange if she seems to predate them by so long. The Black Knife Assassins seemed to have been formed after Maliketh already held the rune of death, and the GeQ was from an era before this.
-The GeQ used a gigantic greatsword, and Melina's fighting style doesn't suit this. The Godslayer's Greatsword is also unwieldy in the hands of a Tarnished, leading me to believe its original wielder was large enough to use it like a straight sword.
-Metyr shares some striking imagery with the Geq's Iconography, her Black Flame Fingerprint icon seems to be based on Metyr's face, and her greatsword shares a spiral shape with Metyr's tails thats pretty unique even considering how common the spiral shape is in Elden Ring. This tells me Metyr, upon landing in Miyr, chose the GeQ before even Marika was chosen by a 2 Fingers.
-There is the skin of a snake in the Bonny Village, I don't know what this means, I don't think anybody does, but if it does have something to do with the Gloam Eyed Queen then it means she was likely a part of the Shaman culture rather than Leyndell culture.
It definitely makes sense for Messmer to be the first born. You guys are on the money. His attitude and devotion to marika is only something that would come from a first born. The only moment he spites his mother his when he's dying
My thing with Radahn "not making sense" is that all we heard in the base game and lore tubers was that we don't know what Miquella's plan is. There was some speculation but I don't really think what we got violated anything.
That and if you think back to something like Dark Souls 3's DLC - all of that lore is entirely new as well. That's just to say this isn't unprecedented by From.
Most people hate it cause 1. The boss fight is really frustrating and 2. After you beat him literally you get one stupid cutscene that explains nothing. If from soft actually put effort into the ending people would view this decision very differently. For example veil should’ve been lifted and there should’ve been some additional dialogue from Miquella after the fight such as morgot and the tarnished after his fight.
@@Pe37777 Yea the ending was awful I jus sat there after finishing feeling numb like a one night stand
Thinking “this is it?” I didn’t even think that was the final fight
@@WellThatsMyOpinion This happened to me with the ending of the main game too tbh, I think the way they made the "endings" in Elden Ring is just not very fulfilling, I understand that fromsoft never wants us to get full closure so that there's always an air of mysteyr, but just getting literally nothing endings to stuff gives me all the reasons in the world to just not care, and that hurts, because I WANT to care, these characters are so cool! i want to know more! From should give us 80% of the info on them and withhold 10% of mystery, rather than just giving us 20% and the rest is... up to us I guess.
The fact that it's Radahn's spirit but Mohg's body, the body should have resembled Mohg more. Instead it just looks like Radahn wearing horny armor but they had the option to make a more unique looking boss. A horned monstrosity that has lost it's mind, but in phase 2, Miquella embraces him like Serosh on Godfrey, and his moves start to resemble Radahn's moves in his main game fight.
Oh hey, kinda like Ludwig, many people's favorite FromSoft boss fight!!!
Would fit Miyazaki's aesthetics of broken heroic figures. Although I would want him to retain his sanity before miquella embraces him since it would still keep miquella somewhat pure. Because I don't think radahn would want to be over reliant on miquella on his promised revival
I think the design to work well because it looks noble and pure at first, but you see the cracks (or horns) start to show. It feels like the armor tries to hide Mohg's influence
Interesting, I thought that's what mohg would look like if he wasn't all omened up.
@@noamias4897 I don't think his design is bad by any means, and this next part is certainly my own fault, I won't deny, but I missed the second half of Ansbach's quest, so I never got the revelation that Mohg's body was being used as a puppet, so when I saw Radahn walk out, the only thing I saw was a smaller Radahn. It didn't occur to me in the slightest that Radahn wasn't in his normal body, and I just feel there was more they could have done to get that across, rather than make it look like Radahn was wearing horns on his armor.
To those who finished Ansbach's story it might be cool to see the mix of the two characters knowing what it is.
To those who missed Ansbach's story it might be a fun mystery to ponder before realizing the truth.
I'm not saying my experience is the end all be all, but I think it would have been better if the boss design did more to show off Mohg's influence.
I also feel bad for Mohg, haha. Not only was he disrespected by literally everyone, and even with his body as the final boss, no one looks at him and thinks, yeah, that's definitely Mohg. He never had agency and he will be forgotten in time. Poor ol' chap.
@@erenja3ger871 Maybe my suggestions were a little unhinged, haha. This comes down to a matter of preference.
The way I see it, Radahn would be fighting Mohg for control over his body, or maybe getting used to it and it might feel like a fighter using his weak hand to fight like Artorias. Then in phase two, Miquella walks out a god to comfort and support him and that's when we get the true fight.
Again, what we got wasn't inherently wrong. I just felt disappointed with the presentation because A) I missed the second half of Ansbach's story so I never knew it was Mohg's body and going into the final fight all I saw was Radahn and I thought... I already fought this guy. B) upon learning it was Mohg's body I immediately thought it was a joke because the only thing seemingly relating to Mohg was that one blood flame attack and the horns attached to his armor (which I don't think is unreasonable to think they came from the hornsent instead of Mohg himself).
I just think the fight would have been more interesting if Mohg had more influence in the design and moves and the transition to phase 2 might feel more impactful than just: Phase 1, Prime Radahn; Phase 2; Prime Radahn with light.
It might have even gotten across Miquella's sinister goals of manipulation seeing Radahn fighting for control only to have Miquella put a stop to it.
Sorry, I'm a little unhinged. I promise I'm not bitter, I still like the lore and boss and I'll get over it quickly because the game is hella fun and lore videos are my life blood, haha.
The Gate of Divinity requires a lord for the God to return from it
This to me implies that Marika's betrayal was her bringing Horaux Loux to the tower and together with him they slaughtered the towers keepers and Marika ascended to Godhood
Its also very clear to me that Miquella's story is a direct parallel to Marika and this is why Radagon is not a God until the shattering because he was her abandoned other half
A crown is earned with might. Also explains why Radagon was accepted back as part of the whole being again and new elden lord, after the liurnian wars were won where Marika herself had failed he earned the right to both. This is also coincidentally around the same time as the birth of golden order fundamentalism as well as the introduction of regression as a main concept back into order. The parallels makes me wonder if Miquella's new order maybe would have eventually accepted St Trina back into godhood too if we hadn't cut their rule short
Why wouldn't it be Marika and Radagon at the gate? If the children of that union all have their own butterflies and are cursed it'd make sense for Melina and Messmer to be children of that union before her first union either Godfrey.
@@noamias4897His ascendance to Elden Lord wasn't done until he took Serosh upon his back and Vowed to conduct himself as a lord
The problem with this is that betrayal the Hornsent is talking about is the Messmer Crusade, not Marika’ Ascending to Godhood. The Crusade also is after Marika rise in power.
the Radagon/Trina parallels are striking
I think people get it twisted and assume that because Miquella was looking for a way to help his favored brother Godwyn die a true death (see Last Rites word item description) and the experiment at castle sol to bring a soul back (presumably to Godwyn) that that somehow automatically means that the reason why he was doing so was so that he could be his king consort in his coming age of becoming a god. You have to remember that Godwyn's death was at the beginning, beginning of the end. Before the shattering kicked off. From what we can tell by Miquella being named by Morgott as one who ended up later betraying the Erdtree, its clear he was initially still on his mission to just fix his siblings in any way he could. He tried castle sol for godwyn, he tried the unalloyed needle for melania, he tried and failed to make his own erdtree in the haligtree for all those cast aside and rejected by the erdtree such as the albinaurics and the misbegotten. And after all of that THEN he moved on a plan to upend the whole of it and become a God because none of it was working within the existing system. He made a vow with Radahn because in his eyes, his brother's "strength, and his kindness, [that] stood in stark contrast with their afflicted selves".
Godwyn was the golden child, the one demigod who had embodied the Golden Order like no other. Miquella's whole journey through the lands of shadow had him divesting himself of his flesh, his fate, and all things golden specifically to get away from Marika's legacy in its entirety when becoming a new God. In what world would it have made sense that he had the literal golden boy as his consort? To me, it was clear that Godwyn's story ended as the Golden Order was ending. He was the first nail in the coffin of that chapter of the lands between. As much as it would have been cool to see some more about those who are continuing to follow and exalt his living corpse and the blight its spawning, I always saw his soul as DEAD dead as it was slain with the rune of death, full stop.
I also think that the mad taint of the runes just amplified each demigod's main aspect and twisted it. Morgott's appreciation of the erdtree and golden order despite being spurned by it became zealous fervor, Rykard's place as one to dole out justice and judge and jury, what was seen as 'heroic' cause by his men turned greed and feeding himself and every champion of the volcano manor to the snake, Melania's loyalty to being Miquella's blade going so far as to break herself and what Miquella had wanted from her (freedom from control of the rot) to kill Rahdan, Rahdan's noble love of battle, but as a hero and protector turned into him being a vicious warlord. And this one is more speculation because we never saw Miquella in the base game, but his lack of wisdom and curse of his underdeveloped perspective on his compassion, etc. being dialed up to 10 and making him think his forced compassion age being the only option. It makes plenty of sense that Rahdan could have initially agreed to the vow, willing to be that noble man and be the king consort, but with the mad taint of the runes genuinely lost his mind and that's the only reason that Melina had to come fight him rather than him not going willingly.
To me his soul reincarnated into the Mending Rune of the Death Prince through Fia, when you attack Fia at the end of her quest line, rancors are summoned to retaliate and she says:" is that you dear ? " . The Mending Rune has the shape of a radiating eclipse. Godwyn's role in the story is already over
Except the Rune of Death isnt actual obliteration. Its just genuine death beyond being recycled into the Erdtree. If anything Godwyn being slain by the Rune of Death would make it MORE likely that he’d end up in the Realm of Shadow
@@Austib_ It's actually the embodiment of Destined Death which is not the same thing as something dying in the Lands Between under Marika's current order. When Rahdan died in Caelid, his remembrance was hewn into the Erdtree and it is from there that his soul was able to be recalled by Miquella for his ends, he was not slain by the rune of death. All that death that has washed up in the lands between, did exactly that 'wash up'. Both rejected by the Erdtree, left unburned by the deathrite birds as in days of old, but also not slain by the rune of death, thus not delivered Destined Death aka true death, because Marika had it removed from the elden ring and had it locked down with Maliketh. Its for that reason I'd argue that Miquella's initial attempts to find a way to bring Godwyn back eventually lead him to the need to reject the Erdtree, the order, the whole of it. There was no answer that would let Godwyn come back given how he was killed because his soul died a true death.
Love this! I feel like you put my exact thoughts into proper words.
My question is though, do you think Godwyn is okay with becoming the prince of death? I can’t come to a conclusion on this myself and its the one thing that drives me crazy about him
@@fourdayz1414 Its definitely not possible to know completely (this is why I agree I wish there were a few more hints about who Godwyn was in the DLC), but there are some interesting things to contemplate. Ones immediate reaction may be to say of course he wouldn't want this to be what has become of his corpse, after all he was THE son of the golden lineage, and Those Who Live in Death were very clearly rejected full stop by Marika's golden order and were, at least by the current age, hunted down by erdtree zealots (see D's quest). But there are a few things to consider: 1) We know from the Blessed Dew Talisman "but that age of plenty swiftly came to a close, and with time, the Erdtree became more an object of faith." meaning that, in the distant past, the actual practices around the Erdtree by the people in the lands between were likely very different before it eventually transitioned to religious practice. Therefore its entirely plausible that while Those Who Live in Death have always been outside of Marika's order, they weren't expressly hated or rejected with such fervor and thus Godwyn may not have had such an assumed negative view on them. 2) This is especially interesting to consider when we know that Godwyn himself had folded dragon worship/partnership, etc. into practice in Layndell (Honed Bolt: "Long ago, Godwyn the Golden defeated the ancient dragon Fortissax, and befriended his fallen foe - an event that gave rise to the ancient dragon cult in the capital", Gravel seal: "The worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree. After all, this seal, and lightning itself, are both imbued with gold", there was a connection both ways, not faith as seen in Dragon Bolt Blessing: "Only those loved by dragons can survive the ordeal of cladding their bodies in lightning." & Lannseax's Glaive: "Lansseax was the sister of Fortissax. It is said that she took the form of a human to commune with the knights as a priestess of the ancient dragon cult") suggesting a flexibility in what was deemed acceptable, even within the heart of the golden order's society, and specifically in Godwyn himself.
Again, its impossible to know, but I'd also like to point out that its not just new 'followers' exalting Godwyn's corpse as the Prince of Death. I think it is important to note that the Death Knights we find in the catacombs guarding his cadaver surrogates were ancient dragon cultists and his loyal personal guard (see death knight armor set and weapons descriptions). I find it very curious in seeing what became of their Lord, they did not revile his transformation. They didn't see it as a sin so beyond the pale that they needed to seek a way to deliver Godwyn a true death to escape such a wretched fate, but instead embrace him in his entirety. If there was anyone who would have an insight into Godwyn and what his potential wants and desires would have been, it would be his personal guard.
Those are just a few of my thoughts!
I absolutely loved the DLC, but there was just so much lore unanswered and questions raised, we as fans went nuts trying to answer it all before the DLC, then we got disappointed. I fully expected Miquella to somehow solve most of the plot issues and tie everything up somehow, which now that I look back on it, is crazy naive. we just get so much stuff about unalloyed gold, the eclipse, the haligtree -- and then for all of that to go way of "oops sorry just Radahn" felt weird. I do think Miquella ascending to godhood in the land of shadow was a last ditch effort to try and fix things though, considering all his other projects failed. you become so desperate you do the unthinkable you thought you'd never do -- in the end, he became his mother of participating in that cycle of endless "no wait, i can fix it!!" which is really tragic.
great conversation, y'all.
About Melina being marika's daughter, don't forget she has a smoldering butterfly. All children of Marika and Radagon have a butterfly.
Ranni seems oddly disconnected from Miquella and Radahn
My head canon is that Radahn being Miquella’s concert is Radahn’s reward for upholding his end of the deal, not the other way around. Miquella needed time work on his plan. Radahn’s ability to hold the stars gave Miquella time to figure out how to usher in a new age. His plan seems rushed, like the Haligtree was plan A and the DLC was a desperate attempt to have his own age.
I think Ranni orchestrating the night of the black knives shows she was much closer to achieving her goal. Her next steps are pretty simple compared to Miquella. The Age of Stars happens like immediately if Radahn isn’t holding the stars. Miquella has to be aware of that to some degree following the night of black knives.
Radahn promised to hold the stars back until Miquella’s plans are in place. Maybe he fights Malenia because Miquella is dead/cocooned and thinks the plan is off. Their agreement could be a secret, partially explaining the lack of connections in the main game. The Golden Order would know something is up if they were openly cooperating.
I don't think it's a reward, I think radahn rejected his fate and stopped the stars to rescind the vow.
Miquella, if memory serves me right, apparently was on Caelid when Malenia fought Radahn. It seems like Radahn stopped the stars so the vow is never fulfilled. Malenia even says to Radahn that Miquella is waiting for him as a Consort.
Mogh was just seduced by Miquella and got his body stolen for the ritual to work. Promised Consort Radahn was just one of many plans Miquella had, this one just happens to work at the end.
Rata was so in denial of Messmer being the child of Marika and Radagon to push his GEQ agenda. Glad he’s seen the light now.
I honestly liked that idea pre dlc.
Where was it confirmed that Messmer is a child of Radagon?
@pastorofmuppets4552 I'm sorry who else could have been having red haired kids with marika? 🤣
@@Jaden-Ringwhat makes you think Radagon is the only person with red hair Marika could’ve had kids with? Also, what makes you think the father is anything humanoid? What makes you think there was a father at all?
@pastorofmuppets4552 we really don't have anything hinting to any other father for messmer unless it was the fleshy thing she pulled the gold out of in the story trailer. Radagon and marika being his parents is the explanation that requires the least reaching. Now yes sometimes reaching is important to form connections but we don't even have enough information to go off of for an alternative. If messmer has a father that is a red haired humanoid and also isn't Radagon then they literally don't give us any information about him whatsoever.
An educated guess on how the golem message happened from my professional game dev experience:
It was most likely not "one guy" but "most people" that missed the golem weak point. The first solution was most likely to make the weak point stand out more. They did additional testing and found out that many people still struggled to understand. so they threw their hands up and went for the nuke. A designer added a dev message, and an artist continued to make the gem more evident. That's how you end up with a classic case of over correction, where there is both a very evident design clue and a dumbass message on the ground.
Makes me think that maybe there could be a different ways to envision "difficulty options" for souls likes with a "guidance mode" that adds messages like the golem one, and indications like "your current build is shite, level up stat X".
It wouldn't clear the issue of people missing some of the fun of discovery and experimentation because they fear playing without guidance mode, but at least that wouldn't wreck the game's combat experience.
I definitely did a play through where I reserved Farum Azula / Mountain Tops / Halig Tree / Consecrated Snowfield / burning erd tree. And went straight to Killing Mohg and Radahn then went to shadow lands. It was roooough starting at lvl 105 but it was very rewarding to get the abundance of stones plus scadutree
I did something similar I stopped after Ordina and Fire Giant so I could compare Haligtree and Farum with the Shadowrealm (also having more places to test out the new weapons) and I was very pleasantly surprised that my damage was comparable and I could get through almost all of the side bosses and up to Messmer without any fragment upgrades or summons. I just could not do enough damage on Messmer himself and kept running out of flasks during his 2nd phase. I guess if I went spear and shield and respecced I could have done it, but I didn't wanna compromise on my play style. Rellana, Metyr and Midra took a while but I was still able to down them at base game damage/resistance. Can't say I could have beaten either Gaius or Putrescence without the upgrades, those kicked my ass with the upgrades. Radahn also would have just been impossible, I think I went in at like level 5 because I was trying to use as few as possible, but after a couple hours of barely only getting him to his second phase twice, I said fuck it and just upgraded with like the 30 fragments I had leftover and after that I had no problem getting to 2nd phase and it only took me a handful of tries and some RNG luck to down him.
I never understood people complaining about the DLC because when I returned to the base game after it and went to Farum Azula I got rekt by everything when DLC enemies barely tickled in comparison
That’s way too situational in my opinion. Especially considering the amount of +2 and 3s, you’re supposed to have beaten Mohg by that point.
@@underwarboy5065 perfectly doable. And there’s a lot of bell bearings and even +9 and +10s up until Lyndell.
I think Radahn absolutely wanted to be Elden Lord. His two role models were, I think he made a promise that if Miquella became a god, he world be willing to be the consort.
Radahn dying and being reborn may have been only necessary for to occur in the shadow realm, a place where Miquella could upend the entire erd tree from the source.
Lore theory: Empyrians have the innate ability to break off pieces of themselves to create other people similarly to how cuttings from a tree can grow a new tree. Grafting is attaching new branches to a tree. Cutting is growing a new tree from a removed branch. This might not be restricted to just empyrians but empyrians definitely do this. Miquella splits off his love as Trina. Malenia splits off her will and self respect as Millicent. Marika may be in the process of splitting radagon off from herself. Shadow-bound beasts may also be these split souls, as Serosh is meant to contain loux's bloodlust. Maliketh may also contain part of Marika. And if I'm right, Melina split off from Ranni, perhaps representing her fate or faith. This would explain why melina is confused by the concept of a mother despite being a daughter of marika, since she wasn't traditionally born. If we go one step weirder, followers of the three fingers talk about stopping births and thus divisions of life. Perhaps all birth in the lands between involves a splitting as well.
Melina is Messmer's sister. His kindling proves that.
@@corneliaaurelli1603 so is ranni.
@@quincykunz3481nope. Half sister
I don’t think so Morgott and Mohg do exactly that and there not empyreans.
I think a lot of the Godwyn discourse could have been alleviated with more explicit confirmation that Miquella was forced to change his mind after the Eclipse failed and go with Radahn. As it stands now, all base-game evidence pointed to Godwyn and Radahn comes out of left field with no foreshadowing whatsoever. I still think involving Godwyn would have been a better choice, even just using his monstrous corpse somehow. If they were totally tied to not changing the Duskborn ending (which is also so nebulous that it adds to the issue), they really just needed a couple lines of lore to explain why Miquella pivoted away from the obvious choice for a compassionate warrior-king. As it stands now, Radahn’s appearance is like whiplash for people who actually were interested in Miquella pre-DLC.
An important note on the scadutree fragments. Blessing level 12 acts like a soft cap, and after it the improvements are marginal. As such the 21 scadutree fragments required to make the extra 8 levels are effectively surplus in a similar way to Ratatoskr was suggesting fromsoft add in surplus fragments. This was the case even before the adjustment patch, albeit to a slightly lesser extent iirc. There’s a case to be made that this was never communicated and helped fuel the feeling that the system was unfairly punishing though
My “eureka!” Moment for understanding why Radahn was chosen as consort was thinking of Radahn and Miquella as another iteration of the “Red King, White Queen” pairings going on between the known lords and gods. Radagon and Marika, Placidusax is a red king, Godfrey and Marika, and now Radahn and Miquella. It’s a simple thing that made me appreciate the choice more.
That's pretty cool, and supports SmoughTown's Rebis theory.
I agree that the biggest issue with the Scadutree system was not having more than 50 fragments. I also play like Smough, like 90%, but i got to the end having missed 4 fragments. At level 18, I questioned whether or not they even took it to 20, so even having a maximum denominator or something would help.
I used the system to know if i had missed something major, sittin at lvl19 in front of the final boss now feeling pretty good that i probably saw most major areas.
This was only possible because i knew the max was 20, so it required knowledge outside of the game
I’m missing one fragment. Wtf
So, Radahn being revived being his condition to become Miquella's lord makes it *more* likely he's actually being charmed -- because Malenia comes explicitly on Miquella's order, with Miquella apparently along with her, to basically kill him to fulfill it. This seems like a weird thing for Radahn to want. "Oh, you gotta revive me for me to be your consort." Yet he wants an honorable death by Jerren? Why would he want to be consort at all for Miquella? And why would he still agree if Miquella decides to force the issue by killing him?
Either Radahn wanted an insurance policy against death, or maybe he wanted to see if Miquella's blade could defeat him...which, it turns out, she couldn't. Either way, Miquella doesn't really fulfill that promise.
Radhan is a carian, his fate is guided by the stars. I think he made the vow to be the lord, saw his fate in the stars during the starscourge conflict, saw himself his fate as a lord of an order of compassion with a god without love. He then locked the stars to stop this future without directly breaking the vow
really the best explanation I've seen, vaati himself was like "yeah radahn just loved fighting *so* much that he overdid it and almost killed malenia, so she had to go off-script and rot herself to beat him" lol
I think this DLC has doubled down on one of the big themes of the FromSoft games; you don't f*ck with the natural order.
Marika removed death from the Natural Order to create her own Golden Order. Miquella would remove not death, but FREE WILL, which is arguable much worse. Granted, I still think this is done with good intentions but it doesn't make it any less nefarious. Still he wouldn't be ruling on his own merit, just using someone mightier to act as his enforcer.
What makes it even worse is that [Promised Consort] isn't even the first time Miquella has tried to resurrect another demigod to control as his means to godhood. Remember at Castle Sol he tried to resurrect Godwin via a solar eclipse, but that plan was thwarted because RADAHN was holding back the celestial bodies. So of course he didn't want to play with Godwin anymore, he found a better toy.
This theme is completely undercut by Ranni though, who hacks death itself with a dark magic ritual that involves the ritual murder of a family member, and then she proceeds to get everything she wants.
Ahhh yes. Well said
@@societyman6591Ranni wasn’t really meddling in the natural order though, she was using Marika’s tools in an attempt to fight back against the greater will…an alien god who’s power is used by Marika to defy the natural order and replace it with her own “golden order.”
Rannis ending involves separating the greater will completely from the lands between, and going away to the stars to let people make their own decisions.
@@donovan4222 Except that now we know that the Greater Will hasn't been involved with the world for a very long time, so her atrocities served no purpose other than her own.
@@Averyfuente Well whether Ranni was fighting back against Marika’s will, or the greater will through Marika, I don’t think changes much in regards to Ranni.
I don’t know why we talk about Ranni’s “atrocities” when all she really did was kill 1 demigod, something the tarnished does like 8 times throughout the game 😂 I don’t really blame Ranni for taking down the golden order, as it appears to have been rotten from the start. Ranni also seemed to believe that she was going to be enslaved by the greater will, like Marika, in the “caged divinity” as St Trina calls it.
And lastly, whether Ranni is a good person or not I don’t think changes the fact that her ending where she separates the gods from the lands between is probably the best solution.
It might sound weird but I actually think the biggest piece of evidence against Melina being the Gloam Eyed Queen is that it’s only one of her eyes that is. If someone had one red eye and one blue eye you wouldn’t call them “the blue eyed queen” or the “red eyed queen” you would call them the “blue and red eyed queen”, or the “hetrochromiac queen” if you wanted to be technical about it.
The DLC really helps to better understand two specific bosses.
The commander at the eclipse fort, and the commander in inner aeonia.
We never knew if the commander in Caelid served under Radahn or Miqella, but I think it’s almost certain now that he is first and foremost, an agent of Miqella.
That is why he makes recovering the broken needle and protecting it his priority.
It would also explain why BOTH of them can summon spirits, which is something most definitely “of” the shadow realm, where Miqella has planned to or already gone to when we face them in the base game.
I just realized Godfrey literally has a Divine Beast on his back and his personal guard are called Crucible Knights & use Aspects of the Crucible; OF COURSE the Shadow Lands weren't sealed at the moment she became a God. The Hornsent probably helped her fight the Giants and all & she just erased them from history.
The Fingers seduced Marika.
Marika unravels the natural religion and culture of her world to replace it with an alien God’s Order. Thats the betrayal. It’s deeper than pot vengeance.
I love pot but I love aliens even more. The alien nature of the fingers is highly underrated. It’s something George r r Martin would do, he loves putting sci fi in fantasy. Michael Zaki approves
Idk, the Hornsent Grandam repeatedly refers to us, thinking we are with Messmer, as the "progeny of the strumpet", meaning "child of the whore", and Marika's Golden Braid from the Shaman Village mentions Marika leaving it as an offering to The Grandmother. Sounds to me like Marika became well-ensconced in Hornsent society, particularly with the Grandam, probably became the consort of a hornsent God, then killed him and ascended to godhood herself, thus why the Grandam refers to her basically as some slut who came in here, slept with their god, and betrayed their people.
I’m curious as to how this happened and if it has anything to do with serpents and Mesmer/Melinas curse. Is the “seduction” implying the fingers allowed Marika to create children with her other half (Radagon)? Or perhaps Radagon was a form that the fingers took to control Marika.
@@donovan4222 I have been thinking the serpent thing as well. if it was just the fingers who seduced Marika on behalf of the greater will, then why did the greater will abandon the fingers? my speculation is that a serpent had something to do with it. we hear the phrase "the original sin" in a bunch of places in the dlc, even one in messmers great rune which says he "keeps company with the original sin". the exact wording "original sin" echoes the Adam and Eve story, where eve was tempted by a snake which resulted in god abandoning them. elden Ring loves using Christian motifs so to me the serpent theory really fits.
The thing is that the Greater Will is not some "alien god" extrinsic to the nature of the universe, but its divine creator. We have no evidence it is malevolent, and in fact the most stable and prosperous era (Placidusax's era) was the era where it had the most influence. The problem with the Fingers is not that they're doing the bidding of some evil alien invader, but precisely that they DON'T have a real connection to the Greater Will anymore. Did you even complete Ymir's questline?
Ratatoskr, you missed the ball on the age of Order ending. What you describe of the Age of Order ending is actually what the Age of Fracture ending is, which is just like rekindling the flame in Dark Souls, you aren't solving the problem by just mending the Eldenring, Goldmask's philosophy fixes this issue. As another commenter has put quite well,
"There's been a lot of good explanations already but I'll take a crack because the flavor of these games is interpretation anyways.
So the default ending is like linking the fire in Dark Souls, you solve the immediate problem by kicking the can down the road but eventually as the world continues walking it'll reach the can again and nothing will have been truly solved. Whether it's Marika or another god, their imperfections will inevitably lead to them making selfish and/or impulsive decisions that harm the world because, despite their power and divinity, the gods are not that different from the common person and have personality flaws. Most of the state of the world as we see it in the game is because of who Marika was as a ruler and the choices she made throughout her reign.
Take the shattering, for instance. A grief stricken parent, her cherished son murdered, decided the system was broken and chose to tear it all down in a fit of impulsive rage/grief. That is both very relatable and understandable of her, but also very human of her, and we expect our gods to be above human emotion and weakness don't we? A logical and benevolent god wouldn't destroy the fabric of reality despite any sort of attack against them because they should be above petty things like that. Marika, despite her divinity, is essentially just a grieving mother who acted out rashly in her despair.
Gold Mask, upon learning the truth that Marika and Radagon are in fact the same being (look into alchemy and the concept of the Rebis for more on that) realized that a lot (or all) of the pain, suffering, chaos and war that had been inflicted upon the land throughout known history is, at its most simple terms, because of the meddling of the gods. Because of Marika/Radagon's actions and choices. Their fickleness, as it's put, is no better than mortal humans, despite them supposedly being better than them.
He sees that Marika having had the free reign to just decide to mess with or destroy the rules of reality that held the world together (symbolized literally and figuratively as the titular Elden Ring and its content runes) as the problem. She didn't want her family to die so she just...removed death from existence by taking that part out of the Elden Ring, but that then altered reality as a whole and essentially now no one could die. That might seem cool at first but the world and people were not meant or designed to be immortal and problems arose from it.
Then someone like Ranni, who was dissatisfied with the way things were, stole a fragment of that rune of death, essentially the concept of death, and used it to kill her body and Godwyn's soul. She needed a sacrificial soul to die instead of hers so her spirit would live on past her body's death and free her from the influence of the two-fingers/Greater Will. This meant that while her flesh died and her spirit remained, Godwyn suffered the inverse and his soul died but his body essentially lives on in undeath now sort of alive but without his soul, causing the deathblight and introducing undeath into the world. Oops, guess you have to break some eggs to make an omelette right?
Whether you agree with Ranni's ultimate goals or not, the only reason her plot was even possible was because the Elden Ring, the fundamental laws of reality, were in fact alterable by the gods to begin with. So, Gold Mask interprets all of this information, and finally realizes the truth of everything (the fly in the oinment) that's happened when you reveal the secret piece of the puzzle to him that Marika is Radagon and thus a flawed and imperfect being since both halves of the same god can't even agree on what's right and are at conflict (Marika destroys the ring while Radagon simultaneously tries to repair it) thus leading to this whole mess.
He concludes that none of this would have happened or even been possible if the gods were actually the infallible and flawless beings they're supposed to be, but they're not. They're emotional and flawed just like humanity, and so since the gods can't be trusted to be perfect and above flaw the only other option is to remove their ability to affect the world in harmful ways based on their whims and he somehow uses this revelation to either discover or create the rune of mending, which if used is a new addition to the Elden Ring itself when applied and is depicted as a glowing shield around the Elden Ring, basically a visual metaphor for a protective barrier that will now prevent any tampering or meddling with the Elden Ring and thus prevent any god or ruler from changing the rules of reality because they got mad or sad about something. In theory, this solves the problem and prevents events like the shattering from ever happening again.
Some people interpret this more sinisterly, like that it removes anyone's free will to enforce order in a tyrannical way, but I guess that depends on your point of view and whether or not you think the Golden Order is inherently good or bad. Ranni wanted to free herself of this influence, for instance, so she'd find it bad, for example. But that's ultimately for you to decide for yourself.
tl:dr: Gold Mask learns the previous sysadmin (a shitty parent with a major case of the magical DID variety) sucks and broke everything by being allowed to mess with the OS's core file structure. He fixes this by taking away their administrator rights and makes the system files read-only so that nobody (including any new admins) can fuck with it anymore. "
The immutability imposed by Goldmask's rune may have potential consequences in the long run. If it indeed locks down any changes or 'updates' to the Elden Ring via the addition/removal of other runes, this could prevent the Elden Ring from ever returning to its original (?) state as depicted in that one Farum Azula mural (or from ever being 'improved' upon).
That's a long rant to justify the continuing enslavement of Marika.
@@mistakai4226 she isn't ruling, you are, she is inert, inanimate fractured. What makes you think she is ruling?
@@mistakai4226that poor god 😢
@@joeyg1315 she isn't ruling because you've enslaved her as a vessel for the Elden ring so that you can enact your perfect vision.
If Melina or Marika were receiving orders from a possible Destined Death Outer God, the conversation w Melina at the Minor Erdtree Church and the gesture we get afterwards (Outer Order) would make for quite the subtle connection
If Marika didn't plan the shattering, but was pushed over the edge by the death of Godwyn, why does she tell the tarnished to come back in the future and take the elden ring for themselves?
“In Marika's own words. Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring. Grow strong in the face of death. Warriors of my lord. Lord Godfrey.”
It's possible the cyclical nature of the elden ring and its associated god and consort was always at the forefront of Marika's mind to begin with. Godfrey and the Tarnished were likely a plot to ensure whatever followed Marika's order still had its roots ultimately in her. She usurped power from her oppressors, so she "oppresses" the Tarnished and Godfrey (whilst actually genociding, torturing, etc...). In my head, I see Marika as understanding of the inevitable consequence of reaching godhood the way she did: another will likely rise in a similar manner as she. So she hedges her bets. Godfrey and the Tarnished were Marika's first plan at protecting her order. Now, idk if Marika had a hand in the NotBK, but her reaction doesn't make sense if she was a conspirator.
We know she harbored doubts about the finger and golden order by the end, as she says that the time of blind loyalty is over. Perhaps she had planned to shatter the ring at some point, but not necessarily after Godwyn's death. Then his death pushed her far enough to do it. I just find it unlikely she got Godwyn killed because why would that be a prerequisite to her shattering it?
@@noamias4897 Rogier says the night of black knives happened long before the shattering
@@yungtubercolosis1073 hmm you're right. Never really understood that line and its contrast to the Bandai Namco article. I wish we'd get some clarity on that some day. Either Rogier is wrong or the Bandai article is
I think one of the best indicators that Melina is the gloam eyed queen is that we lose torrents whistle when we become the lord of frenzied flame and torrent is notably terrified in the abyssal woods
if you kill grandam wearing the dancing lion mask, she eventually gives in and sacrifices herself to you, thinking that you're trying to feed on her for life.
People need to accept Gloam Eyed Queen wasn’t that important to the narrative as they think. She was just a footnote it Marika’s rise to power. That’s all.
There are multiple item descriptions referring to her, we have a whole order of monks who have been seduced by her black flame, Dominala village is centered on her lore. Dude her power is sealed in a legendary sword in the basement of one of the divine towers. We also face the godskins like a hundred times 😅. She has an outsized presence in the lore of the base game. In fact she was way more prominent in the lore than the Greater Will. Her lack of presence in the DLC doesnt negate her importance.
@@sclafantasy “THAT” important. Never did I say she wasn’t important. Read. She has presence but ultimately in the grand scheme of things she’s a footnote in a larger story.
@@ViviRavan lol semantics. Miquella wasnt THAT important either. Your argument is based on a subjective interpretation of relative importance which is weak af and non-falsifiable.
I think the reason that Radahn comes across as pretty egregious is because of the lack of anything in the DLC being mentioned in the base game. There's no mention of Messmer in the base game (no I don't think the Impaler's Catacombeshas much to do with him), no mention of Rellana in the base game, no mention of the hornsent in the base game, no mention of the Scadutree or shadow realm in the base game, no mention of the shamans in the base game, no mention of bayle in the base game. The difference with Radahn, is he unfortunately is one of the characters whom we actually have a baseline for. So introducing all this new lore that appears to have to precedent feels jarring even if they didn't do anything particularly unique with him.
It’s awful because they essentially ruined the impact of his base game story to then bring him back, add nothing to his character in any form or at least get his perspective on things, and kill him AGAIN! It’s literally meaningless to bring him back.
I don’t recall exactly because it’s been a while, but a lot of the ds3 dlc was sort of the same. Like the world building was somewhat there because of a trilogy of games, but none of the main cast of bosses had any mentions in the base game. And there again, they used the character that gets you into the dlc as the final boss. But I don’t recall anyone complaining and/or finding issues with it being separate.
doesnt every dlc do this? the last boss of dark souls dlc is manus last boss of bloodborne dlc is orphan of kos. ds3 is gavel. none of these are talked about in base game as far as i know either.
Isn't that kinda the point? Everything in the shadow lands is there because it shan't be talked about
@@dawsong5208 Artorias, Lady Maria, Ludwig, Lawerence, Demon Prince, Sister Friede(not her name specifically), and Slave Knights(not Gael specifically) were all mentioned or hinted at in their respective base games. Secondly, these bosses doesn’t outright changes are understanding of the base to this degree. We also never found a previously established character like Radahn. The situation for Elden Ring is significantly different than before.
I think Ratatoskr is on point about Messmer and Melina being the children of Radagon and GEQ. This explains the affair and the betrayal. The affair was Radagon and GEQ having children out of wedlock, and the betrayal was Marika killing the GEQ, taking her children, and raising them as their own. In a sense, she is, unbeknownst to them, their adoptive mother, and thus they treat and believe Marika to be their actual mother. And there is some evidence to back this: both Messmer and Melina have red hair (Radagon must have been their father), Marika/Radagon were already one when they pluck the Elden Ring out of the GEQ, so it is plausible Radagon built some sort of alliance beforehand with the GEQ to get close to her so they could take the Elden Ring, and both Messmer and Melina have the snake-eye-thingy.
So two things about this DLC that are interesting and aren't being discussed as much that I think needs more eyes on it.
Miquella's and Radahn's vow to each other is specifically separate from the promise Miquella is asking Radahn to make.
The other is that Messmers crusade cannot be Marika's betrayal of the hornsent. His crusade with all the evidence must have taken place after the Liurnian wars and possibly as cloak in the timeline as the banishment of Godfrey and the beginning of the long march of the Tarnished. We know this because Messmer acted as an older brother figure to Radahn which means he was around for Radahns youth and the fact that he recognizes us almost immediately as a Tarnished meaning he knows what the Tarnished are which he cannot have known if he was banished to the realm of shadow under the pretense of his crusade if he wasn't around for the banishment of Godfrey and his soilders.
Im actually very glad you covered my second point
The biggest piece for me that sets the crusade apart from Marika's betrayal is the Omen curse that afflicts Mohg and Morgott. How could the crusades be the reason for the hornsent to curse Marika when they seem to have happened after Godfrey was sent away, and the Omen twins are children of Godfrey & Marika?
This is one of the biggest problems of the dlc imo. Messmers crusade is way more recent than we are initially led to believe, so it’s unreasonable for there to be zero evidence of messmer and the land of shadow in the base game.
@@bigsmall2842 ah yes it's not like damnatio memoriam happened in real world history certain people definitely weren't completely erased from history
@bigsmall2842 Actually no, I firmly believe he was erased from history. Rykard shows evidence of Messmer in the Volcano Manor's architecture: Winged Serpents.
Another thing is the Erd Tree had to have Burned AFTER the Veiling. There are no golden seeds spread around the Land of Shadows, the Minor Erdtrees you can find are being protected and or cultivated.
Also Black Knight Commander Andreas' Spirit Ashes mentions Messmer fleeing the ErdTree...
@bigsmall2842 The lack of Messmer imagery still makes sense, even outside of real world analogies and more into FromSoftware worlds. Dark Souls had the same thing with The Nameless King, if a royal divinity wants something gone they have some juice to make it happen.
I love love love these lore podcasts, great way to wrap up my day of thinking of the DLC all day at work
I think you guys are WAAAY overthinking the Promised Consort thing.
Think of it more like how a small child, who doesn't quite understand what romantic love is yet, say they want to marry their older sibling or parent because they love them and that must be how it works in their innocent mind.
Miquella is pretty much proven in this DLC to not only have the eternal body of a child, but the mind of one too - always optimistic but doesn't understand what he does is harmful.
Miquella said "promise me you'll be my consort in my age of kindness" to which a much older Radahn likely answered "awww sure kid" without meaning it.
Then Melania took the "promise" extra serious for her brother, Radahn likely reacted with a big "HELL NO, IM NOT ACTUALLY DOING THAT" and that led to Melania attacking Caelid specifically to kill Radahn and bring his soul to Miquella (which she failed at)
Ghey incest in a souls game who would've thought
I'm personally of the opinion that radahn never speaks because miquella's plan kind of failed. The scarlet rot was supposed to kill radahn. But he held on for years, if not decades afterward. The soul miquella brought back was the cannibalistic monster we fought in the base game, not the kind horse lover.
Also, the Freudian implications of miquella forcing himself on his brother, who looks so similar to his father while simultaneously looking so much like his own mother while he literally attempts to take her place, is quite unsettling. All miquellas' efforts to build a better order than marikas ultimately led him down the exact same road.
I’m fairly convinced Radahn and Miquella agreed to a fight because of the Valhalla motif going on.
Malenia and her clean rot knights have a very heavy Valkyrie aesthetic going on.
Valkyries would bring warriors who died in battle to Valhalla.
The shadow keep is also likely the Helphen that is mentioned on the helphen steeple. The aesthetics of the show keep and the weapon are VERY similar.
There’s A LOT more that points in this direction but if you want more watch quelaags video on it.
I bet Radahn's half of the "vow" was saying "over my dead body" to Miquella's offer. and Miquella was like "deal"
I’m thinking that Radahn thought he could ascend to Elden Lord without Miquella becoming a god and charming everyone.
So maybe his vow was “I’ll be your consort if I don’t beat everyone else in the Shattering War and become Elden Lord myself”
Then Miquella kinda betrayed him and had Malennia kill him
Interesting
Given that the fatal flaw with Miquella’s plan is that it completely rejects free will, Radahn being charmed makes perfect sense, he used Mohg, it would actually be kinda weird if he didn’t also use Radahn. Radahn’s fatal flaw being stagnation and loyalty to the golden order, it also doesn’t mesh with his character to be on Miquella’s side the whole time. The simplest story is young Radahn was charmed or just convinced to make a vow, then went back on the promise later in life, and Malenia came to collect on the debt and force him to comply. Pretty neat story, honestly, fits thematically and in the characters of Radahn and Miquella.
A streamer I watch (PatStaresAt) was able to suss out Radahn before the Ansbach quest because of Freyja’s presence and Gaius
I love how soon Pat caught it, and his "I don't wanna know I'm right until the game tells me I'm right" mentality
The fact that you have to kill Radahn to access the DLC was another hint, in a way the launch trailer with Radahn and Melania fighting was also hinting at it
@@KNIGHTMAREMANIAC yeah killing Radahn (Basegame) was a dead giveaway to me. Miyazaki doesn’t do major plot threads in minor cases. My mindset entering the dlc was “Killing Radahn is seemingly important to enter the DLC, and I will figure out why”
Then the Suppression Pillar:
* “All manners of Death wash up here” *
I had a weird inkling that I knew what was going to happen.
Then, of course the more obvious details like Freyja’s involvement sealed the deal for me.
It wasn’t until Ansbach’s quest that we find out what Radahn is being used for, but I somewhat vaguely figured that out together using the contextual clues left within and outside of the DLC prior to these revelations.
Sidenote: I want to bring up the original Story Trailer too. This was one of my favourite things to speculate on. Looking back in hindsight, it was incredibly obvious/telling that the Woman who devotes her entire life to Miquella would only want one reason to kill Radahn… to benefit miquella in some way.
The Radahn/Malenia/Miquella narrative thread is one of my new favourites in the entire game. Very well executed and built up.
The final boss was also leaked before release. So he could just be a funny liar.
@@HeevaEgoI thought the reasoning was to free the stars and the fate
The rune of death removal was what allowed Marika separate/veil the lands of shadow since we know "all manner of death wash up" there it makes sense removing the concept of death would create a separate world there.
One thing that I don’t see enough people remark upon is that becoming a god through the Gate of Divinity does not have any necessary relation to the Elden Ring. When Miquella becomes a god through the Gate of Divinity this has no relation to the Elden Ring, which at this time is still within Marika’s petrified body. This does not mean Marika’s divinity was not becoming a vessel of the Elden Ring. I think it was, but I think the Elden Ring is less important to godhood in general than people tend to assume. I think it’s a common view that the Elden Ring controls the rules of the cosmos as such, but how then can Miquella become the god of a new Age totally without it? Personally, I believe the Elden Ring simply represents Order. Miquella’s is an age of the original kindness of gold without Order, which I understand to be identical to unalloyed gold, and therefore without the Elden Ring. And godhood in itself does not have any necessary relation to Order or the Elden Ring.
I don't think this is the case. The Gate of Divinity seems to be part of the same "Order system" that the Elden Ring is. Miquella's cut ending in the main game explicitly has him as the new host of the Elden Ring, suggesting this is his plan.
@@soarel325 I believe that was probably the intention for the cut ending in the base game, but what we get in the DLC is different.
“I know now what Velka people felt like”
No you don’t. You see the shadows cast on the wall of your cave and you think that you can see the thing, but you only see a shadow. That Velka shit hurt man. It hurt so bad and they borderline taunt us about it.
I think its an interesting philosophical question to think about what 'vows' and 'promises' mean to a demigod child with the power of compulsion and coercion.
If it wasnt for that one sentence that really does make it seem indisputable that there was a part of the vow to resurrect Radahn, i think its very easy to think that Miquella's Vow is not with Radahn, but is a one sided delusion of what being selected by your own Two Fingers means.
If the Two Fingers choose him to be a god candidate, then it is going to require a consort. Trying to keep in mind his eternal childhood curse and presuming it extends to his lack of wisdom, its not inconceivable to me that this child took the Two Fingers selection as a promise of godhood, and that would imply the promise of a consort, and it makes sense this kid would want his big strong valiant older brother to be his enforcer. Then you end up in this very weird place only a child demigod with godlike powers of sociopathy could end up, convicning himself he's been promised a whole load of things that nobody promised at all ("You have to be my lord, the fingers said I get a lord because I'll be a god.")
But, yeah there probably was some lame deal Radahn made where he's resurrected and allowed to fight forever.
honestly, radahn not talking is a highlight to me. really sells the brainwashing
This thought occurred to me while listening. What if Melina is the gloam-eyed queen and the godskin hunt that ended with her defeat was in retaliation of her brother being betrayed and sealed in the land of shadows. In her anger at the betrayal, she could have led her followers against the order to retrieve the means to free Mesmer. Then she was defeated and slain by Maliketh and her power, i.e. the rune of death was sealed. She even states in base game that she is burned and bodiless, just like ranni after the night of black knives. Also, her gloam eye is sealed by a claw mark, Maliketh stabs his left claw to unleash the black blade during the fight. Just my thoughts. Could be totally off.
Also, still salty about lack of Velka lore.
I LOVE this idea. What if the Melina we see in the base game is a kind of fragment of what she once was (Marika's firstborn daughter who became the GEQ in retaliation after her brother was betrayed, sealed away, etc.). Maybe Marika, out of some kind of weird motherly love, allowed her daughter to be "re-birthed" into a new form after her defeat but with little to no memory of her past self (her past self veiled from her like Marika veiled the Shadowlands/Messmer from the rest of the world). Melina's original self became the GEQ in an attempt to overthrow her mother's order but she was ultimately defeated - and now base-game Melina, as she slowly regains small pieces of who she once was, wants to help us change the world, as she tried to do long ago as the GEQ.
I think that Radagon is Marika's body that she divested to become a god. She needed someone to deal with Rennala so she used the Rune of the Unborn to rebirth her old body and the strand of red hair within the amber egg to metaphorically stitch it back together. After Godfrey was tarnished, Radagon was given the opportunity to "become whole" by fusing with Marika. As is a reoccurring theme in this game, they were broken apart and then reconjoined in a new configuration, just like the Elden Ring.
As evidence we have the golden sewing kit that belonged to Radagon and the fact that his scarseal boosts your physical attributes while Marika's boosts your spiritual attributes.
I kinda have a crackhead theory that goes along with your idea that the greater will exists somewhere out in space. Both Ranni and Miquella at their ascension to godhood talk about "1000 year journeys" What if something about becoming god allows one to change the trajectory through space of the celestial body they become the god of? We know from a few sources that the cosmos directly effects the meta physics and "destiny" in the lands between. Maybe when Marika became god she sent the planet in a trajectory away from the greater will? Maybe that's why the fingers eventually lost contact with the greater will? Maybe that's the betrayal?
I don't know if you get to it eventually, but my one stab at how the base game sets up the final boss is the Golden Order Greatsword (I think) quote where Miquella says "O brother, Lord Brother, please die a true death."
We all assumed this was meant to reference Godwyn. I think it actually still is! However, I think that it now also applies to Radahn, who Miquella also refers to as "Lord Brother."
My theory would be that Miquella and Godwyn had a true promise or vow or pact with each other, probably that Godwyn would be Miquella's Consort, that did not work out. And then, in his grief and confusion, Miquella projected that same scenario onto Radahn. And then it didn't work out AGAIN because he didn't actually die when Malenia fought him. So Miquella's trauma is compounding and he's getting more and more desperate, which leads him to do things he shouldn't be doing, make people do things they wouldn't otherwise do, and make sacrifices he shouldn't be making.
EDIT: the above assumes that at least some part of Radahn's vow to Miquella was non-consenting, and based on Miquella's famed ability to "wield his love to shrive clean the hearts of men."
Radahn's part of the vow was, I assume, something to the effect of "if you can find someone strong enough to kill me in a fair fight, then I will go along with your crazy schemes." Now that I'm typing this out, it occurs to me that Radahn might have seen Miquella as a child, and not understood that he was "consenting" to a vow or compact or agreement on such a deep emotional and metaphysical level. So from Miquella's perspective, him sending Malenia to fight Radahn is honoring his vow. From Radahn's perspective this is all the Shattering War, and until Malenia speaks those final words to him he might not even have remembered his "vow" to Miquella.
The tragedy here seems to be that the "promise" that Radahn made to him is the kind of good-faith "promise" you make to a child, that doesnt' really apply to an adult world. But Miquella never grows up, so his child-logic can reshape the world, and Radahn's own identity and agency.
I agree with you that a "proper" Elden Lord would not be tricked into it, but would choose freely. This seems to be why grace does not accept Miquella's Order as legitimate, and why we have to fight then and cannot choose to ally with them like we can with Ranni, Goldmask, etc.
You're talking about the Golden Epitaph sword, and its description explicitly states it was made to commemorate Godwyn.
Maybe hot take, but, the idea that it's "poorly done" for there to be no foreshadowing in the base game of Radahn returning as Miquella's consort doesn't really jive well with FromSoft's history of DLC integration. Did anyone "predict" that we'd be fighting Gael and obtaining the Dark Soul in DS3? Did anyone "predict" that we'd be fighting Manus in the abyss in DS1? Did anyone predict we'd be fighting the Orphan of Kos in the Old Hunters? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say no, no one knew any of those things were coming and only afterwards did any of it start to make any amount of sense.
I think because of the unusual gap between Elden Ring's release and the DLC release we've all had time to form such strong headcanons and a sense of confidence that we clearly know how all the lore is supposed to work, so this reveal is giving everyone an ego check.
Moral of the story: stop expecting to predict FromSoft DLC. It's never worked before, it's never going to work in the future. Yeah Radahn 2 was unexpected, but again, looking at all the context the DLC gave us, it makes sense now. There were pieces of the puzzle missing, and now they've been put into place. I really don't think this is a point we should be holding against the DLC in the slightest.
Edit: also, all of the other FromSoft games I’ve played already had their DLC out when I played the first time, so I did everything up to the final area, then did DLC when I was appropriately leveled, then beat the final boss.
Everyone is thinking of Miquella’s story as the conclusion to the DLC, but it’s just a side story, by definition. It’s just another tale of gods and their ambitions that ultimately culminates yet again in our confrontation with the Elden Beast. Given that context, Radahn returning shouldn’t be seen as “the final fight”, rather it’s just one more part of the whole story. So the idea that it comes out of nowhere shouldn’t really be a mark against it, just the same way Fortisax being what you fight inside Fia’s dream shouldn’t be considered “bad” because it’s unpredictable, nor Astel showing up right before getting to Ranni, nor any of the other surprising and unpredictable things that are all over this story.
FromSoftware made the decision to dip their toes into epic fantasy, and made that dip a specific marketing item for the game. It is absolutely fair game to discuss the degree to which they fell short of executing on it skillfully.
@@Eladelia way to ignore my entire point
@@Tohlemiach I responded to your point by showing that they're not owed a free pass based on their past work; they made a deliberate decision to market their newest game as moving into the realm of epic fantasy, with a lot of marketing and interviews hyping up the fact that they'd gotten an epic fantasy author involved, so no one is wrong for noticing that they did not succeed by the typical standards of epic fantasy. There's nothing unfair about judging a company on whether it succeeded at delivering the thing it was promising people when it took their money.
@@Eladelia you ignored my point that you’re still judging it differently than all of their other DLCs and your justification that it’s epic fantasy is an extremely poor one. Just because it’s epic fantasy now rather than gothic fantasy or steampunk does not mean that now it’s okay to criticize the final boss for not being predictable based on lore from the base game.
An interesting detail that I haven’t seen anyone touch on is that only the children Marika is the mother of (with the exception of Godwyn) carry curses. The children of Rennala are not inherently cursed.
We see in the story trailer that the Scadutree was already there, fully grown, by the time Messmer invaded. So unless there were 2 giant trees over the Lands Between at the time, or the Scadutree just appeared out of nowhere, I don't think the separation of the Land of Shadow happened during Messmer's invasion. The veil must have been there before. And as for how Messmer's army got there, it's simple. Marika allowed them to enter.
Yeah, there’s multiple pieces of lore that indicate the crusade began a fair amount of time after the Liurnian wars, when the Golden Order was already well established, and yet we hear in the story trailer that there was “an affair from which gold arose and shadow too was formed”. Since we know now that the gate of divinity ritual doesn’t seem to require any input from the Elden ring, and we already knew that the defining principles of the Golden Order come from removing the rune of death from the ring, it seems like the timeline is that Marika becomes a god -> Marika and Godfrey conquer the giants and grow a tree -> Marika gains control of the Elden ring and creates her golden order, simultaneously veiling the shadow lands and creating the Scadutree, possibly as a larger form of the sealing thorns that veil Enir-Illim -> then the Liurnian wars -> then Messmer’s crusade
I think the scadurtree's initial purpose was just to block out anyone from accessing the gate and only later did marika also command it to create a veil to separate the lands or maybe she created another spell for that effect.
The Death Knight armor say's Godwyn's personal guard quested to find his cadaver. This may suggest that the Shadow Realm was removed from the Lands Between after Godwyn's death, and so perhaps Messmer could have been born and went on his crusade later on in the timeline as well.
My headcanon goes like this. The Numen are from 'another world'. They arrived upon the world on which the Lands Between, Lands of Shadow (our world) exists via giant spaceships that appear to us as massive rune-covered coffins. The Numen were not like the Hornsent that occupied this region, and as a result their special powers appeared as magic, occult etc. As a result, they were called Shaman. They relocated to a village of their own, a place where they could prosper without fear of being attacked, farmed into jars etc because one of their traits as Shaman/Numen was an inherent ability to graft or be grafted. They were 'built different', more pliable, more compliant. Down the line, this could explain Godrick's ability to graft. And if all of Marika's descendents are also Numen, could explain their own great powers. The Hornsent staged a genocide against what was clearly a more powerful race. And wiped out all but one, in the shape of Marika. Anything of a high enough technology would surely be consided magic, think of Sam Raimi's Army of Darkness as an easy reference. Or, similarly Back to the Future. The Numen must have seemed so beyond anything supernatural the locals had ever witnessed. But at this stage, they were still a minority, easily squashed - or at least the small Shaman tribe that did not descend as Nox to the eternal cities were.
Messmer would be Marikas weapon of mass destruction and tool of revenge for this crime.
*It's half the fun isn't it, coming up with our own theories?*
I assume the whole ascend to godhood parable, their true abilities etc not being obvious or might just not have occurred to them yet, or become fully realised reminds me of how Superman was just a 'regular man' on his home planet, it was only once he arrived on Earth where his abilities were fully realised eg. his planet had a super oppressive gravity endowing him with the ability to fly on ours.
This
It's funny; the DLC actually made me MORE convinced that Marika was involved with the Night of Black Knives. She's been a plotter and a betrayer from the beginning, one who has no problem using her children as tools (Messmer) if it means getting what she wants
I would be beyond shocked if from soft out of nowhere added like a 3 to 5 GB patch, adding some content or a cave or two just to add to that lore regarding why it was rahdan
Miquella could be just thanking you as his loyal blade and champion of the contest because all throught the game you are Miquella's loyal blade by killing Mohg and winning the contest.
I think Ranni's removal of the elden ring from the world is still one of the best endings we can reasonably get
Highly disagree. She basically forsakes the world to the death blight, which is as bad as Dungeater's ending. It's incredibly naive of her to think she can take on the Outer Gods in THEIR domain, as if she's as strong as Radahn or Marika. Ranni's ending is you dying in space fighting something WAY more powerful than the Elden Beast, and her just looking for another consort because her spirit endures.
@@geordiejones5618 with the rune of death fully unleashed in every ending death bright and those who live in death are problems that will quite literally sort themselves out
@@geordiejones5618 also at least it removes normal people from being targeted by the outer gods
@@geordiejones5618 Wat. Dungeater is the second best ending by returning the world back to the time of the Crucible. Natural order comes back. Like the Hornsent and their babaric way or not, that is the literal natural state of the world as it supposed to be. And no, you're not dieing or fighting anything in Rammis ending. And no, you have no indication whatsoever on how powerful Ranni really is.
Yet again another Ranni simp who completely looks over the glooming implications of her vision. With no lord to rule over the lands between( seeing as the player and Ranni leave THe lands between), you're only allowing anarchy and more potential for conflict to arise in the future. Not to mention, Ranni is not a good person, she caused the shattering war for her own selfish ambitions, had her own brother murdered, lied about who did it. She is allowed to make these kinds of decisions and that what makes her character interesting, but this in no way makes her ending the best. If anything your "best" endings are between the Age of Order and the Lord of Frenzied Flame. If you really want a good explanation why, I'll be glad to explain it.
Regarding the promise, there is this anime trope with a childhood promise that one side forgets or simply thinks it was just that a joke among kids. In this case it could be just that Radahn just made a promise to what he saw as an emotional child (Miq maybe was actually young in year then and sounds rather emotional) to cheer him up. He then forgot about it, or, more likely, thought the kid would grow up and forget about it. Rad's request (if there was any) could have been a joke, not something to be taken seriously, but to cheer the kid up, I don't think they were negotiating seriously. But maybe I'm missing something, or some hints were obscured in translation. The whole if I die and you revive me sounds like a really weird thing to say to a kid.
But for Miq, as we know, never grows up the moment was very important for him, maybe he asked for the promise after finding he is an empyrean and will/might be a god. Years later, if Miq brings this up, Radahn might have forgotten or never gave a deeper thought to this idea(just something to cheer up child) and refuse due to ideological differences (if Miq left the path of golden order fundamentalism or even already thought of starting a new age).
But maybe I'm missing something, or some hints were obscured in translation.
The only real motivations we know od radahns are that he was bored of earthly challenges to the point where he challenged the stars. We also know he idolized the prior elden lords. To die in battle would provide proof of a sufficient challenge and then to become elden lord even after that? Sounds like his motivations to a tee. I cant imagine that he would disagree to that offer from miquella.
Mechanically I really enjoy the final boss. I just think it could've been better if Mohg shinned thru just a little bit more. As it is now, there's just one blood slash explosion and a few omen horns on Radahn's armor. I wish there were a few more Mohg attacks. It also would've been cool if the music in the first phase was a mash up of Radahn's and Mohg's themes. I do love the Radahn chorus remix, but Mohg should've had more of a presence. This team has proven they are musical masterminds. Im sure they could've meshed Radahn and Mohg's theme into an amazing first phase track
I really feel like they were setting up Godwyn’s resurrection with the castle sol eclipse stuff
I don't get why they didn't have Godwyn+Miquella be the final boss. It was better set up by base game, and seeing a demigod in battle we haven't seen fight yet would've been way more hype than Radahn part 2.
Not to mention it would have fit Godwyns - Balder similarities to have him return.
it was one of the more interesting sub plots in base game too
Snakes are in the middle of everything here. There's even a snake skin in Merika's village. Maybe they are somehow related to godhood? Something that Rykard and the Gloam-Eyed Queen maybe tried to emulate later? Some black flame spells are spiraling; the Godslayer Sword is full of spirals, spirals, and double spirals, like mating snakes or the Caduceus. I don't know I might be wrong here haha
I wonder if Godfrey wouldve been against the crusades against the hornsent considering two of his children were omens and how the crucible knights served him. Maybe he was banished, so he'd be out of the way.
Someone else pointed out that the gladiator fights were already using serpent imagery and fighting the horned lions before Godfrey was banished.
He has no problems killing Giants or Storm people. Also Marika banished Godfrey with the expectation of him and the Tarnished to come back and take the Elden Ring. She was already planning the Shattering at that point.
“In Marika's own words. Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring. Grow strong in the face of death. Warriors of my lord. Lord Godfrey.”
I feel like people forget about this line…like a lot.
@@ViviRavan A lot of people act like Marika betrayed Godfrey, and I never really saw it like that. And Godfrey doesn't seem enraged about it when he comes back. He's like "Alright, I'm back. Time to be Elden Lord again." I mean this is Godfrey we're talking about. I doubt it bothered him much being sent off to wage war in the badlands. War is basically Godfrey's favorite hobby. And it's not like someone wrestled Godfrey down and put him in chains to send him off, what gigachad could have pulled that off? He left willingly
Hoarah Loux, the chieftain of the badland, was the OG murderhobo who went to play other game waiting for the DLC for more things to kill. Marika started her regime with an indifferent murderhobo and found herself being with a different murderhobo, the Tarnished, once again
A good point was made here. When thinking about the lore of these games you need to balance what could logically have happened with how much thematic sense it would make. Yes there's probably proof somewhere that Godwyn wore buckets on his head for fun, but that would have nothing to do thematically with the story so it wouldn't be lore
Imo the tree fragments are not the issue, it's the escalated boss design. What I mean is these are Sekiro or Bloodborne bosses, which isn't bad exactly, the issue is they are bosses designed for a different style of from game. Elden Ring, base and DLC. Is effectively dark souls 3 rules for the player, but the bosses are running on Sekiro and Bloodborne rules.
This is why 99% of weapon arts are worthless. The bosses attack too fast with such tiny openings, basically making every boss kind of the same. A press roll simulator.
That's the key issue imo. It also kind of restricts the way you play.
A couple lore details (sourced from Quelaag):
The Helphen Steeple looks a lot like the Shadow Fort with Messmer's red fire as the ruby at its peak. If true, then dying in battle seems to be a method for souls to reach the Shadowlands intact.
The divine beast we fight at the base of the tower is a horned lion. Radahn is represented by a lion, and Mohg's body gave him horns.
Also, Malenia and her soldiers are Valkyries, whose purpose is to usher souls of warriors to Valhalla. She fails, but we succeed. Death among the passions of battle seems to empower the soul
As someone whose favorite character is Godwyn
It wasn’t an expectation for him to be in the DLC, but it was a hope
And when you imply that with his prayer he actually referred to Godwyn as “O brother” and nowhere in the base game does it say it show Radahn’s relation to Miquella, that’s why so many people like myself were hoping it was him
I saw the Golden Rays of hair open from the gate and truly thought Godwyn was back, and look the lore and implications are great but speaking from personal experience
I think why some people were disappointed, was because the reveal that there wasn’t anything more to Godwyn, for the people that wanted more, was just, a letdown
Otherwise tho the DLC was amazing I can’t stress the beauty and dedication fromsoft put into this game
But that’s why for me at least I was slightly disappointed by the end
Plus some people get stuck on bosses like myself and don’t feel happy when they’re done
More so just happy the annoying chore is over with
Hand in hand those 2 didn’t leave the best initial taste in my mouth
No offense, but if you thought Godwyn was stepping out of the gate, then you either missed half the questlines and dialogue, or were coping insanely hard. Miquella entered the gate of *Divinity* to become a god. How could you see someone stepping out of the gate and think "OH!! THAT MUST BE GODWYN!!" like no it's Miquella--they told you it would be Miquella. Everybody knows Miquella's plan now. It's Miquella.
godwyn is permanently dead, his soul was destroyed and his body was corrupted beyond repair, he was killed by destined death and if godwyn was just ressurected it would contradict the lore of destined death, I would of just been so utterly pissed off if they brought back godwyn because now maliketh and destined death cant even do its job right
@@rangopistacho6928 Acktually 🤓 Fia used the "warmth" (read soul/runes) of Godwyn, as well as other warriors, to create the Rune of Death, so technically Godwyn is resurrected in the base-game if you did Fia's questline.
@@TheMightyNovac I'd call it more of a rebirth than a resurrection. More akin to the Soul of Cinder than the original Godwyn coming back. That still doesn't change the fact that Godwyn's story actually has closure, but people are comparing him to Velka of all things.
Messmer might know what being a Tarnished is because they were created at the same time as his crusade started. His whole ethos, mission statement, purpose, is to burn in his flame all those stripped by the Grace of Gold. The only reason why he'd constantly repeat that, and his fire knights too, is if that's what the Hornsent are. Stripped by the Grace of Gold, marked for extermination. So Marika removing the Grace of the hornsent could be the same moment she stripped Godfrey of Grace. But she told Godfrey ahead of time, to know, and prepare for his Long March. The Tarnished were hounded after all.
miquella charms people with his great rune, he broke his rune and can't charm anymore (only in the second fase when he is a full god), so radhan was not beeing controled , he was fulfilling his vow he made with miquella.
Yes. I think people just don’t want that do be the case. Especially when he would essentially be just like his Father figures. Godfrey and Radagon who are both literally Elden Lords, why would he oppose to the very thing his inspirations were.
you can't say "he can no longer charm people" and then say "except when he achieves god hood" you are stretching a lot to fill in a hole. also, he discards his rune during the dlc, radahn isnt confirmed to be alive to be running around uncharmed, only when you get to the arena which could be miquella already a god by then so he's charmed the entire fight.
to play devils advocate, if miquella can no longer charm people while we are in dlc, it doesn't mean he couldn't charm him in the past which is whenever this flash back is most likely taking place, there seems to be some tunnelvisioning on the fact he broke his rune to charm that it means he never charmed radahn in the first place when those are not related.
for anyone reading that doesn't know, final phase miquella grab is a charm debuff that you can cure if you use his broken rune as a consumable on yourself, the description of the rune says to use it to break his charm. which means he is still prince charming he just broke his current charms.
and at the end of the day it doesn't really matter.
the worst part about this, is charmed or not, no ones motivates are any more explained in the dlc besides miquella's, we don't learn anything new about radahn as a person with this debate, it's just an argument on semantics. the base game is still a giant question mark with the same speculation, and while the concept of stopping the stars to postpone fate was an interesting story element. we now have the crusading and trying to kill him for body snatching purposes as little timmy level story writing plot twist
The whole Radahn/Miquella promise seems to me like a promise between children. Miquella's continued youth is symbolic of never maturing, and never letting go of that promise. Miquella fianlly discard's his youthful body and ideals throughout the Land of Shadows in order to fulfill that naive aspiration. This is why Miquella appears to have aged when we face him in the final boss fight.
Miquella's story is about a late coming of age.
If Miquella discarded his flesh in the Shadow realm then whose body is in the cocoon???
It's still called cocoon of the empyrean too
I'm guessing, as gross as it seems, it is the kid of Miquella and Mogh. We know it comes from the "womb" of the Miquella haligtree body. We know the body inside is an omen that is identical to Morgott.
An "omen", in botany, is the root stock reasserting itself, supplanting the grafted branches. Remember, the Erd Tree isn't the Great Tree. The Erd Tree is a beech tree, the Great Tree is coniferous 🌲
We can see the difference in the pre-Godfrey architecture, like Stormveil Castle and Castle Morne and the Volcano Manor.
As for the spiral...?smough, that's how trees grow universally, the roots intertwine so they can push themselves skyward; as in towards the heavens...? Like the Tower...? The spiral is just distilling the tree worship to its fundamental shape, two forces coexisting, pushing and pulling, to flourish.
Idk man, its just Occams razor, hearing both of them rationalizing how Radahn was NOT charmed only made my position stronger, Miquella was indeed mindcontroling him, its simply what makes the most sense.
That body is Mohg which was previously charmed.
It doesn’t really.
@@DonPetexXI doubt that means much when he dies. The charm isn’t staying even with the dead.
Not really. The fact that miquella had to fulfil something in order for Radahn to join him suggests the occams razor in this case is that he wasnt charmed, that he agreed on certain terms, which is unlike any of the other cases of Miquella's charm that we know so far.
@@_Cerb_ Yah you can’t just invoke Occam’s Razor with a lack of information. It’s like saying because someone is wearing yellow means they are a banana because bananas are yellow. Forgetting the human flesh parts.
I think I have a pretty solid case on what were the saints used for. They were making trees out of them. Even the willow in Belurat speaks. If you invade next to it it will say: "Forsake me not" when you return to your world.
Radahn is literally called *Promised* Consort Radahn, meaning he promised to be Miquella’s consort and wasn’t brainwashed. It’s not like he’s called _Bewitched_ Consort Radahn or _Charmed_ Consort Radahn, he’s the *Promised* Consort, the titles don’t lie. Morgott is Morgott, the Omen King because he’s an Omen and a King. Godfrey is Godfrey, First Elden Lord because Godfrey is the first Elden Lord. Malenia is Malenia, Blade of Miquella because Malenia is Miquella’s blade. But Promised Consort Radahn didn’t promise to be a consort, like, how? Make it make sense.
Personally that is still my perspective even if it doesnt fit perfectly, for instance i dont know if Mohg, Lord of Blood has any real weight now because he was somewhat connected to the formless mother but in the end he was just a tool for miquella to get what they wanted. Not what i would call a lord. But that is just my perspective, i can understand and respect yours as well🤙
Just another thought too, someone else brought up that miquilla charms people through promises as he does with us so it could still be up in the air
I agree with Mario.
As to that point on Mogh, Formless Mother followers don't all necessary know they worship her. She's worshipped when blood is shed (like in the Land of Reeds embroiled in civil war), and sometimes gets followers that realize how to draw power from their mother who doesn't seem to have much of a criteria as long as you wound her and spread her blood or make blood spill. Even simple-minded followers like the Blood Fiends show a lot of power with primitive worship, while aware followers like Mogh, Sanguine Nobles, Ansbach, Okina, Esgar Priest of Blood, Varre etc can draw much more power from her.
Do people even read the text in these games or just listen to lore videos? Part of the implicit storytelling that FromSoftware does so well is including the bias that seeps through certain items. As if Miquella can't just lie. What makes more sense? That a warlord who can HALT THE STARS would agree to an Age of Compassion (as in the end of war) or that the Promised Consort is essentially a childhood ideation of Radahn, just a fancier Frankenstein's monster of merged soul and body of Radahn and Mogh?
@@geordiejones5618 That is a good point. Freyja does believe Miquella promises her that he would be able to wage eternal war but I don't see how that aligns unless it's against outer gods or something.
There's no specificity in who the "promised" refers to. Did Radahn make a promise, or did Miquella promise the spot to him? Judging by how Miquella talks to you when he grabs you, it seems like he is a promiser
miquella wanted radahn to be his consort because he was everything that miquella couldn’t be naturally.no matter how many ppl miquella charmed he could not be strong like his brother, as noble as him.He saw Radahn as a great person.Radahn probably knew of miquella’s promise but had his own shit to do in cailed.
Uh unfortunately nope from me, i just beat Messmer and dont want anything to be spoiled. Ill watch it in a week or so. But leaving comment for engagement and all that which helps you tubers :D
But i would really want to hear some lore discussion because i cant stop thinking about what i came across in a small village yesterday before going to sleep... i think i even dreamed a bit of it XD
Oh also I think that Metyr is the Star that came to the Lands Between "bearing" the nascent Elden Beast as a mother "bears" her baby.