Another perspective is that often a tyrannical regime will consider all of it's subjugated people to be required as allies. For example, a nation could conquer another and declare themselves the new rulers of this place without their consent. Later, if someone from this conquered nation was to attack the conquerors, they might be labeled as a traitor despite never having pledged their allegiance. For elden ring, it could be that the erdtree and it's ruling class considered all of the lands between as their rightful possession. This could mean that the snake or snakes were simply inhabitants of the lands between who were forced into submission by the erdtree and later decided to rebel. In the snake's eyes, they wouldn't be a traitor, but the erdtree might consider them as such. I think your idea is more likely though, because not all enemies of the erdtree are labeled traitors, and rykard/messmer were clearly allied with the erdtree, though messmer might still be
I love hearing Ratatoskr say “OHHHHH!!!” That’s when u know it’s a damn good piece of lore or lore idea GREAT video guys, can’t wait to hear the next podcast with both of you
This is a great podcast, but it's kinda funny that he said that in response to an explanation of Melina being GEQ. That's one of the oldest and most popular theories out there.
As a "legacy" (aka life-long) Zelda fan, I've found it heartening to be embraced by the FromSoft community. The crossovers and collaborations between Souls and Zelda lore channels have been a blast. It would be awesome to see a collab with Bandit or any other Zelda channels, or even a PvP tournament featuring a mix of different creators.
I think Miyazaki is borrowing from Plutarch’s The Faces of the Moon. In that he talks about the Death of Demeter aka the death of the body that occurs on the earth. The second death is the death of Persephone that is the separation of the mind from the spirit - the mind being the intellect and the soul being the life force energy - that occurs on the moon. Godwyn relates to the sun, but the sun god is connected to the underworld because that is where the sun is after it sets. Since he died the death of Persephone first, his mind is not present but if body still has vitality but without the mind his body is growing rampant. It would let surprise me if the dlc captures this duel lunar and underworld theme.
I absolutely love how they're conceptualizing the lands of the DLC. The idea of a land that was once part of the Lands between being veiled, possibly with the veils draped from the Divine Towers, that this land has its own culture with all of the things that the Golden Order would rather be obscured from view, that the Erdtree was planted here instead of at the base of some sheer cliffface, it's all so good. I commented something very similar on a previous podcast, but the actual criticism of enemy variety is the Mountaintops of the Giants' open world areas specifically failing to introduce new enemies, especially in contrast to the early game which was throwing out new enemies left and right (its side content effectively uses enemies to not feel all that bad, however). Farum Azula has a great balance of new and reused enemies imo: the enemies they reuse fit perfectly in the area and they have enough new beastmen so that things are still interesting.
I agree with both comments. The veil thing is great to justify the new map not being present, similar to how Ooacile in DS1 was pretty well justified IMO. And yes, it is a general consensus that it's just Mountaintops that utterly fails in giving you new enemies outside NPC invaders. Farum Azula by comparison has a tight balance between new and old enemies. The overall enemy variety in the game is still above most RPGs and the expansion will only increase it to high degrees.
Now that I think about it the empty space in the middle of the map really makes zero sense. Like looking at how wide that waterfall is between Caelid and mountaintops the water should be gone. So it being an actual illusion by the veil makes more sense than that the middle part is an infinite fountain. I think that even though it isn’t as fun to have big open empty space in the mountaintops, it makes a lot of sense lore wise. It’s super fucking high up, it’s hard to get there, It’s the place of a big war whereafter it was forbidden to go. I mean yeah 🤷🏻♂️
It's interesting, when you think about the end of the game, Radagon is killed and made onto the relic sword, the elden beast is killed which presumably rids the land of the greater will but Marika is still there. So you're essentially separating them and getting rid of Radagon in the process. This could by why Marika needed the tarnished to have a weapon that could kill a God. So she could free herself from Radagon and the Greater will. So she could have total control with you as her new consort/puppet. As you guys discussed
We never actually see any indication that Marika is even there. We see her body. But body and spirit are divisible in the Lands Between. Marika never so much as moves. She drops when the Rune Arc breaks. But the only time we see motivity is when Radagon takes over. I'm not at all convinced that we see Marika in the Erdtree at all. It would be a strange plan to try to rul as a broken husk in the body that is used to seemingly control her. I don't think she wants that body or anything to do with being a god anymore. Most of the known history of Marika is her striving to exert power only to come up against the fact that she is still not free, even as a god.
@@rainbowkrampusoh maybe it’s possible that she’s doing what miquella did and left her body and actually has returned to the shadow realms where she came a god, since she’s left her body now that it’s destroyed and she doesn’t have the elden ring anymore. (Ranni and miquella toss aside their runes and bodies after they are destroyed)
On Gideon getting it wrong, I was confused about it for a long time, but I think its actually quite simple. When you talk to Roderika about Hewg's mission, she says she can't help but view it as a curse, why? Because to her, making a weapon that can slay a god seems impossible. She interprets Marika giving Hewg that task as a form of punishment, like the boulder of Sisyphus. I think Gideon comes to a similar conclusion - he figures out that Marika wants the Tarnished to slay a god, and concludes that it must be Marika's wish that the Tarnished struggle for eternity. He thinks Marika is a mad woman who only wants suffering. Gideon, for all his cynicism, still sincerely believes "A man cannot kill a god". Marika's real motivation in all this, I think, is forcing change. The hints from Melina suggest she's been planning the Shattering for a long time, since Godfrey was exiled at least. I don't think it was purely an emotional outburst at Godwyn's death, that doesn't fit, but I don't think she killed Godwyn either. I think instead Godwyn's death (and the spread of Deathroot) was the moment that spurred her to break out the "in case of civilizational collapse" Tarnished contingency she'd held in her back pocket for a long time. Marika sees the decline of the Golden Order and wants new blood to rule, and believes the best candidate will be proven through war. She doesn't really care what ideology shapes that rule (she gives grace to the fucking Dung Eater). Basically, she is a proponent of "might makes right" or "a crown is warranted with strength". Marika is an agent of violent change, Radagon is an agent of Order and unity. The game is about how these concepts relate to and contradict each other, Radagon/Marika is a clusterfuck but thats the point. Civilization is a messy, bloody, beautiful thing - that would be the "core" theme of Elden Ring in my view, and I feel confident of that even if it turns out I'm wrong about some of the specifics.
I think elden ring isnt meant to be 1 single theme. Its a full world, much more of one than all of their previous titles. Its a dying world, with dozens, even hundreds of themes injected into it. I believe the purpose is to bring all these themes together for different people to notice, so one main theme isnt there. I feel like im doing a terrible job explaining this though.
@@normanbestboi9117 I kind of agree, but I think the fact that there are so many factions with their own themes builds upon the more central theme of conflict. The world isn't neatly divided into clear categories, its a battleground of ideologies.
@@saulgoneman i agree but i dont think elden ring is meant to be that peice with a central theme, its suppose to be a melting pot of themes so different people come to different conclusions. It is possible however GRRM had a set theme in mind but it got lost when Miyazaki flipped the world into his own version.
This is Miyazaki 101, his obsession is to apply multi layered themes on top of each other, not everybody gets to peel all layers but everyone gets something for sure and this is how he wants to tell a story, like he says, he has the full picture in his head but wants us to come to our own conclusions.
A lot of people were complaining that Elden Ring didn't have AMAZING graphics, but I honestly think they made up for it with their art direction, which is just genuinely flawless.
What a great discussion. You should get Smough back on the podcast a few weeks or months after the dlc comes out so that you guys can discuss the new answers and theories that the dlc introduces.
This might seem like a cop out answer, but I think Marikas motivation might be intentionally unknowable in a lovecraftian sense. The same way the motivations of the old ones in bloodborne are unable to be fathomed by humans, marikas motivation might simply be totally incomprehensible. However, I do suspect that because marika was mentioned explicitly by miyazaki to be featured in this dlc, we will likely get more insight into her actions.
Yep 100% agreed that even with DLC we will never 'truly know' - Marika/Radagon are a cosmic being beyond our comprehension. Hence why Gideon was so easily confused after 'peeing into their will'
i feel like they are too personified to not have humanly comprehensible motivations. I think we just lack context to understand marika’s relationship to the Greater Will and the Golden Order and power overall
@@alexterieur8813this is something I've thought about and I think it is probably correct in that their motivations are not as totally alien as literal aliens. However, I often consider the context of what themes miyazaki and grrm are trying to convey in their stories and for elden ring I'm certain it's analogous for the alchemical process, which others have pointed out before. As radagon and marika are the end state of the alchemical process, a rebus, they have undergone enlightenment and their minds are fully transformed. They perceive things differently to the unenlightened, and in this way they are incomprehensible. Sorry it that sounded totally deranged, hope it makes sense
The DLC trailer got me really exited, so i started watching lore videos about it to hear others thoughts. And it was kinda frustrating nobody mentioned the following: What caught my eyes in the trailer was the portrait of an old man and a woman. I thought the woman looked familiar. It seemed to me she was somehow similar to enemy npc that attack you near the Shaded Castle. But this wasn't quite the case. I decided to look around some more nonetheless, and there it was. The Shaded Castle boss, Elemer of the Briar drops Marais Executioner's Sword and Briar Greatshield. Briar Greatshield has an image on it of a skinny pale dude wrapped in red cloth and surrounded by flame and skeletons. Who else can it be if not Messmer the Impaler. Item description: "Greatshield from a foreign land Originates from Eochaid, a land of proudly solitary ascetics." This is amazing such hint existed in-game all this time, even though you couldn't figure it out until you saw some pointers. Makes you appreciate just how much effort was put into the story.
Shadow Lands aren't a foreign land though. They were a part of the Lands Between and became separated through unknown means. Also, Elemer's armor was given to him after his capture in Caelid. It seems to have been a kind of mockery. Eochaid is basically Ireland, if in game descriptions are anything to go by. Most likely it was someplace outside of the Land Between.
@@rainbowkrampus Yeah i saw some bits about Ireland and that the giant burning cage man being a reference to Ireland's folklore. So it only proven things to me. Also the description of another item which reads a little bit differently: "Treasured sword of Eochaid, a lesser, long-vanished domain."
@@rainbowkrampus it doesn't really seem like Ireland outside of the origin of the name. i also agree that it was probably located way away from the Lands Between. it seems like its one of these places that are pretty common in souls games that are referred to in only a few mysterious sentences, with a bit of armour, a few characters, and minor lore thrown in like Carim or Carthus or Astora
@@scutterybuttery449It is very Ireland-like. It's described as a land of ascetics. It's referencing the christianization period where monasteries were established and regularly raided. That's what Elemer's whole deal is. He came to the Land Between for revenge on Godfrey who was basically a viking who raided and destroyed Elemer's home.
Holy moly!! Smoughtown and Rata?? No one told me the Wisemen’s Committee was in town? Love it!! One of the things I felt about other from software games was there is this amazing deception leading to a boss fight. Every FS game has it. I really hope this DLC has it too. Some of the memorable ones are Gehrman, Laurence, Gael
i think the Theme of Elden Ring is the relationship of spirit, soul and body. how do they affect each other? what is more essential to a person, or is it the combination? how does death affect them? you can relate most factions and characters to this idea. - albinaurics don't have souls. - ranni and miquella don't have bodies, while - godwyn and those who live in death don't have a spirit. - godrick tries to enhance his body, but his soul does not change. - radahn loses most of his spirit and body through rot, but his soul seems to remain (as seen in a certain underlying dignity). - marika/radagon are the same entity, but it's not 100% clear what is shared between them. they appear to share a body, but have separate spirits. do they share a soul? miquella/st. trina may be in a similar situation. - the fire giant also houses another entity in his body. - D are 2 bodies with 1 soul. - dragon communion and the primeval current change your body if the soul or spirit is exposed to them (into magma wyrms or glintstone brains). - spirit ashes produce a body from the spirit, probably? - rykard feeds his body to the serpent, but consumes or merges with the snake's soul and/or spirit. it's not clear how much of the serpent remains, beside the body. the following points can probably be connected to the theme as well - graven schools are amalgamations of lots of sorcerers. what parts of them are connected? - beastmen are beasts that were granted more human-like bodies, which apparently also elevated their spirits to a step above beasts? - it feels like omens, misbegotten and demi-humans fit into this theme as well, though i don't know how exactly. - revenants, who are different from those who live in death. they have something going on with their bodies, but what about soul and spirit? i think each faction/character represents a different take on the theme. spirit, soul and body each influence each other. but what if one or more of the three are missing or altered? it's all so big that i can't wrap my head around it. is there a certain message the theme, in its expression, conveys? it is probably made to make the player think and derive their own message, depending on what they see in the game. however, there may still be some more concrete statements to discover. for a long time, i've thought that Elden Ring is about death and different forms of life, but now i think this can be viewed as a sub-theme. i'm also not sure if the theme i suggest is too broad to be meaningful and if there is a more specific theme hidden in ER. what are your thoughts on this? maybe someone with a better understanding of the lore will find a way to interpret this theme more consistently, or know more evidence for or against this.
analyzing the trifecta of body-soul-mind is really interesting and clearly a major theme in the game but i also can’t wrap my head around what could the game want to tell us about this triad of human nature. Maybe a lesson to take care of all three : Take care of your body, stay curious and questionning things and take care of your soul maybe with art or creativity or human relationships. A lesson to strive for a balance of the three in order to achieve or get closer to a perfect existence. Or at least a complete existence. After all we see tons of character who lack one or even 2 of the three and they aren’t doing very well.
I think a lot of what the game is trying to tell us is that a lack of balance can have disastrous effect. Too much order and you got a super fundamentalist and genocidal society. Too much chaos and then there is only destruction. A balance must be striken in order for things to evolve and possibly get better ? A body and no soul and you’re a decaying mass of deathroot, a mind with no body and you lose sight of the value of life (Ranni and her plotting), no soul and you’re fated to go extinct (the albinaurics). My thoughts aren’t precise but i think the game is trying to teach us the value of Balance.
@@alexterieur8813I agree and see this in the concepts of Causality and Regression. The push and pull of time and societal/biological evolution. When change occurs too quickly or all at once, there ceases to be refinement. Things appear broken and on the brink of chaos. When things are stagnant there is no growth or innovation. Ultimately leading to self destruction from within the organism or system. Balance is forsure a major theme.
I really need Queelag as a guest on this podcast. I think you two would make a great pair discussing elden ring and its dlc's lore. Loved this episode!
1:13:58 just remember a funny thing. At the end of Ragnorock, the radiant and beloved Balder, killed by Loki, (which some speculate is was a Odin stand in for the story ) set the end times in motion, and later comes back to life in the new world. We know that Ranni using Godwyn as a totem, causing him to half die was not something even the assassin expected. You could also speculate Godwyn was expected to die properly if you read between the lines of the deep root depths finger reader. Miqula wishes death for his brother, but this is also a land were death is a metamorphic force, not an ending, so a following resurrection may be a unsead implying. In addition being a beloved hero of the dragon war can be reason enough for a ruler kill their spawn (sounds like a Game of thrones motive). But what we say is inconclusive as we need more lore to fill in this massive speculation holes.
correct me if im wrong but from what i understand when Ranni kill Godwyn she doesnt know he will be half dead because from what i understand dead wasnt a thing before/while killing Godwyn it become a thing after the assassins' took the dead rune so Godwyn wasnt part of first to actually die (i hope that make sense)
You and I know full well that we won't get the actual picture, no matter how much we get excited, all we are going to get is super disconnected bits and bobs of the Lore.
@@vinodchhabria8738 can’t wait for the confusingly mistranslated sentence that hints Elden John and the dung eater were the black knife that killed Godwyn. We already roped in godskins, let’s have everyone in on the conspiracy expect the tarnished.
This was like listening to 2 old friends chat about the good ole days. Great to listen to and love the ideas especially about Messmer being the very firstborn of Marika. I really think the land of Shadow is just like a dump site of all things that Marika wants to put away and hide so her age was viewed as this perfect slice of heaven and it ends up corrupting the land and all things in this realm she first set foot in
I think messemer might also be cursed. He looks sickly and has an associated butterfly. Afterall, we know these lands are full of things cursed and heretical. Blood, flame, thorns, serpents, we even see the fire butterflies near the thorn mages who are most likely from the shadowlands.
The overlap of symbolism makes this bit so confusing for me… The thorn mage women seem to originate from the windmill villages, thorns seem to have impaled the dead giants in the Mountaintops, the fire butterflies might be associated with Melina, and fire has multiple associations… the blood flame, yellow chaos flame, flame of the fell giant, white ghostflame. It makes my brain hurt but it’s fun to guess.
@@The.Nasty. what if messmers flame is the origin of flame, or he at least currently holds the origin of flame... and it's like the original thing representing going against the erdtree itself in all forms. Perhaps the flame of ambition?
Great discussion, I love the peak “unknowing” occurring after two years of digestion, now the dlc trailer dropped everything can be reconsidered, even by a tiny degree. So much fun. Good chat guys thanks!
I still hold fast that Radagon is the OG. We know that he is a fire giant and he saw the red hair(their connection to the Fel god) as a curse. So either he was fused with Marika when they became a god or he was changed as part of accepting the role. Radagon might so loyal to the Greater will, just because it granted him liberation from the Fel God and why Marika was the central figure of the two.
It would make sense if Melina and messmer were twins because then death and fire would be intertwined just like how abundance and decay are intertwined
“How does it become all about Ranni?” Every character is the main character in their own story. I was taken with the argument that Miquella compelled Ranni to shed her own flesh as a test to see if he would survive if he did the same. Ranni benefitted the most in the quest where you aid her, but hers is just one of 6 endings.
What I would want elaborated on : What is the culture, how was it working and when, revolving around the Deathbirds, the society when Death was there. Is it gloam eyed queen time, or unrelated ? was it during the crucible ? Was it a natural order the world, or one ordained by the elden ring but before marika / golden order ? The Deathbirds time are so opaque to me i feel
In terms of appearance, Messmer the Implaer looks a lot like Elric of Melniboné. They have similar dragon helmets, their clothes are similar, and if you look at the blade of Messmer's sword-spear the blade is black like Elric's sword Stormbringer. Elric is heavily associated with dragons (and may or may not be descended from dragons), and while Messmer has snakes coiled around him, he does have dragon wings on both his weapon and helmet. Also, both dragons and snakes are described as serpents, which are used interchangeably with each other in the Bible. And let's also look at the "Impaler" part of Messmer's name. Obviously, this is in reference to Vlad the Impaler, or what he is more famously known as Dracula. Dracula when translated into English means "Son of the Dragon". So, Messmer has a lot of associations with dragons, he even has eyes like a dragon. Fun Facts: George R.R. Martin used both Elric and his fellow Melnibonéans as the inspiration for House Targaryen. There even was a reference to Stormbringer in the show. In season 4, episode 2 Joffrey asks the crowd what he should name his new sword, and someone cries out "STORMBRINGER".
As far as real life armor influences for Messmer's armor, it reminds me of Roman Lorica Squamata (plated) armor. The face guards, the open toes, the gauntlets, and red color scheme.
1:06:19 I’m of the opinion that Radagon is dead. Not only do we kill him, but his corpse got turned into the sacred relic sword CANONICALLY by the elden beast, and CANONICALLY AFTERWORDS, Marika’s body can be restored, altered, etc. I assume Radagon didn’t get waxed into the sword, but then remerged into the Marika’s body after that. The whole sequence of the final fight feels like the big reveal of the guy with autonomy, the guy with the power, Radagon is the one who lifts the hammer.
Melina could be a projection to the tarnished of messmer and he used a pretty maiden type puppet or projection to converse with the tarnished to bring the end of the order, melina’s story could be messmer telling us of his life Messmer is not mentioned the entire time, or he was in the story the entire time She has the serpent tattoo, the same closed eye and messmer would have to be burned and bodyless to be in the land of shadow Another theory is melina and messmer could have marika and radagons ability to be the same person
her being his envoy or projection or something like that is really interesting. Going the undercover way as to not arise suspicion from the tarnished or even the golden order by impersonating a soft spoken maiden is genius. Melina being able to use erdtree incantations would still make sense as Messmer is still a child of Marika so he could definitely be using Erdtree incantations to fool everyone
Always nice to see collab between two of my favorite Souls-tubers together. Would love to see you do another one of these with Sophie from Sinclair Lore.
Pertaining to the intertwined trees, I don’t see anyone pointing out how the Haligtree also consists of two parts seemingly intertwining. There’s also imagery here evoking the double helix, also symbolized in Marika’s/Radagon’s braid, the fingerslayer blade, and the tree monk statues, but it is broken at the end, as symbolized by the godslayer greatsword.
Finger Reader Enia offers a pretty dialogue line leading up the DLC: "The Rune of Death goes by two names; the other is Destined Death. The forbidden shadow, plucked from the Golden Order upon its creation..." she says this in relation to the Cardinal Sin
I still think of Radagon and Marika as very similar to the Nameless Namekian from Dragon Ball. He was once one being who got split into two due to an inner conflict. This created Piccolo and Kami, two people with opposing viewpoints, but that still shared one soul. If one died, so did the other. They later reconcile and remerge back into one person. I think something caused Merika to grow the second personality that was Radagon. They would grow so distinct that they would eventually split, but still share a soul. It just does not make any sense lore wise, that they always shared the same body. They needed to be at different locations at the same time. They then later agreed to refuse when they got married, or they just always had the ability to fuse and separate at will.
I theorise that the Shadow tree is the tap root of the Erdtree and the game will be set in the spirit world, on the underside of the Lands Between, literally in the shadow of the Erdtree. I support the idea that the current, golden Erdtree is a newer, cultivated growth on a much older Erdtree/Greattree aka the crucible. And the current Erdtree was cultivated when the Rune of Death was removed. In fact, in the recent interviews Miyazaki said: "the shadow lands are where Marika became a god and where the Erdtree was born." This implies that the Erdtree was born when Marika became a god by what she did in the Land of Shadow. I suggest what she did there was remove the Rune of Death, which if you look at the oldest symbol of the Elden Ring, in Malikeths arena, you can see it features at the very bottom tip, pointing out below the other roots. In the current/pre-shattering Elden Ring a trellis appears in place of these roots and the bottom is blocked off by the rune arc, described as the "basin in which its blessings (aka eternal life) pool". Previously life did not pool here, it travelled down the roots, to meet Destined Death in the spirit world. This is why the Lands Between are now like a spirit world, your soul is caught in the basin of the Erdtree, this is where you first awake at the start of the game and then reborn into the Lands Between. The Rune of Death also very closely resembles the Helphen Steeple, who's light, opposite of grace, guides the dead instead of the living. Enia also says that the rune of death was "the forbidden shadow, plucked from the golden order upon its creation" So the shadow realm was physically disconnected from the lands between, when Marika removed the rune of death, replacing it with the rune arc. Godwyns Deathroot could therefore bring about those who live in death by partially reconnecting the Erdtree to the Land of Shadow, physically reaching down and entangling the Shadow Tree within the spirit world. This is why those who live in death are the weak and the many who lie in waiting, their souls were trapped in the shadow realm at the point the golden order was established. But they represent the antithesis of the Golden Order and so are shunned, despite their innocence. Further to this, just visually I think the shadow tree looks far more like a pair of entangled roots than a tree.
I had a thought after one of you had the suggestion that Messmer might have been born prior to Radagon & Marika’s “marriage”. Perhaps much closer to the crucible. If so, that would make him the only named demigod who was born out of wedlock & perhaps that has something to do with his status away from from the royal family & why he might embrace all of this forbidden imagery.
Just throwing this out there, its possible Melina is a split from Mesmer that he "burnt off". This wraps up a couple of lore bits in a nice little bow (and yet still leaves many questions). It explains why she is bodyless, preserves both the butterfly theory and the "rule of three" when it comes to important demigod children that both Marika-Godfrey and Rennala-Radagon had going on, and explains how Melina has Torrent, she met Miquella in the Shadow lands.
Re: Black flame on Iji. That's what happens when you attack a carian troll with the skill of the black knife (blade of death) that red projectile when it lands on a carian troll creates a black flame. Try it on a carian troll and see.
I can’t wait to hear the breakdown of the DLC from these guys. The hardest part of Elden Ring’s lore for me is the time line ‘a while after Godwyn’s death Marika shattered the Elden Ring’ what is a while? When did Maliketh kill the demigod children? Who’s demigod children? Is he the reason we have the wondering mausoleums? When was the Shadow Land veiled and it had to be a long time ago or we would know it had been veiled unless the veil affected everyone’s memory. There are so many questions and so few answers.
Talking about things being spatially displaced, thinking of the lecture halls from bloodborne for example. In fromsoft there are so many locations that have actually always been there and yet somehow we’ve never had the right perspective on them, or it requires a mixture of a physical and spiritual journey to access them, like archdragon peak, the hidden verticality of the nightmare in bloodborne, the fountainhead palace in sekiro, the ringed city and fields of ash - all follow a theme of being obscured, but technically always there just hidden from us
What an awesome chat. I loved all the speculation and ideas thrown out. I will say, I had always assumed Marika had to assassinate Godwyn because potentially he was the only Demi God capable of stopping her plan, and his fundamentalism would have just reinstated what Radagon wanted. But that was just my own assumption. Thanks for this Podcast, it definitely helps pass the time til June 21. 🔥
What if being 'burned and bodiless' is similar to soul form in Demon's Souls, where you were capped at half HP. So if you need to be bodiless to go to the shadow lands, you start with that soul form esque handicap (also applying to attack power in this case) and the sekiro system Miyazaki mentioned refers to gaining tokens that permanently mitigate that handicap, getting you closer to what in Demon's Souls would have been called body form.
I saw a theory from a smaller lore channel that suggested Mequella IS Torrent. It’s based on a mythology of a shapeshifter who takes the form of a the specific breed of horse Torrent is. It was wild and so good 😂
I hope the DLC explains what Marikas motivation even was for shattering the Elden Ring. Seems like an important piece of the puzzle that's basically never explained.
@@insertedgynamehere___969 I know, but I feel like the game kind of hinted at something more going on than that. Or maybe I'm just overthinking this and Godwyns death is the real reason.
So, i just had the strangest idea about the upcoming DLC; What if Messmer is really Godwyn? Like a poisoned and corrupted aspect of his, that Miquella is trying to safe?
As we will be able to meet Miquella there, despite his body being still inside the coucoon, it stands to reason that the shadowland is reachable throgh ones dreams. Now, Godwyn is courently in a similar situation, while still suffering from the deathblight, you can also see some physical similarities between him and Messmer. But thats all just specultion of course and there are some glaring lore-bits, that dont quite line up...
I watched this when it came out but returning now to give due credit. Rata you are awesome, the way you asked questions exposing how much is up in the air made me drop my theory crafting and go just read up on all the lore and try to absorb as much as I could about the lore. I also watched countless lore videos from dozens of creators, to bounce ideas off of and learn new stuff. Currently doing a lore run. Continue on if you genuinely "want schizophrenic", but also well researched theories addressing the Radagon questions. "Radagon is Marika" but Marika is NOT Radagon. Or, she wasn't before they conjoined during the shattering. Radagon was a mimic of Marikas creation, which she knew how to create being from the eternal city where mimics originate. The purpose of this mimic was to be a "leal hound of the Golden Order", a perfect vassal and future Elden Lord. In the Forlorn Cave, she mixed into her mimic some essence of the crucible, giving him savage strength and red hair. She mixed the essence of some of her erdtree faithful and erdtree hero's, making him a Golden Order fanatic who's sole purpose is to serve the Erdtree. And finally she puts a shard of the Elden Ring itself in him, giving him great power and making him a potential vessel of the Elden Ring. This means he was created after she had the Elden Ring, likely soon after. It was during the wars when "all opposed the erdtree", but before the liurnia and giant part of the wars. Main evidence is Kosmos video on how Radagon is a mimic of Marika ( ruclips.net/video/X_4n8j-5Cqk/видео.htmlsi=jv4POvziCfx6wkME credit to Kosmos). The cut mimic tear quest and Melina dialogues are crucial. The rest about Radagons essence, I put together from visiting the Forlorn Cave on a lore run. The Forlorn Cave is a masterpiece in environmental storytelling, but the mimic tear quest was cut so it went over our heads. The game makes it pretty clear the process of creating Radagon took place there, just pay attention to object/enemy placement and item descriptions in there. The only things out of place is the dragon (just a corpse I think), and hints Miquella visited this cave before us. Still working on this theory, looking for more evidence still but I've been obsessing over ER lore since the DLC trailer, and it finally feels like I'm starting to put some big pieces together.
It was fun seeing Rata go full Gideon here and jam his face straight into the theory-crafting. I do kinda wonder if Rata is having a hard time knowing what the game is about more broadly because of his life experience though. To me the game is about legacy and unburdening oneself from the past. I keep asking people if they've ever noticed the similarities between Marika and a middle aged Japanese video game developer. Marika is basically Miyazaki. They built their kingdoms. They sent their "children" out into the world. They were tried and tested. And now they are at a point in their lives where they are stepping back and delegating responsibility to new people. Elden Ring, in my view, is a sort of coming to terms with the process of ageing and taking on different roles. Miyazaki is now the head of From and he has to grow the company in ways that he alone cannot accomplish. He's clearly arranging things such that others can take the lead and still produce games of the quality we've come to expect from From. Marika is doing the same sorts of things but on a grander, more melodramatic scale. Instead of video games, it's her children.
Definitely an interesting coincidence that he said this exact thing recently. But he also said he wants to highlight human ambition in this game. Ambition for what though? Changing the world order?
@@andrewbowen2837 Maybe. The Souls games embraced a notion that we have to let things run their natural course. But AC6 has a very strong message that we need to be more than passive observers. Its final ending all but states that we cannot keep doing things as we have been doing them and that we have to embrace change, however frightening and unknown it may be. Whether this notion will carry over to the DLC and how that might play out is hard to say at this point. Frankly, I'm still trying to wrap my head around Messmer. The ramifications of a subtle shift in ideological messaging is way outside of my calculations right now lol. I'm excited to see where things land though.
Is it sad that I'm just starting my 3rd full listen of this. I sort of wish there was a podcast every day about FromSoft and Elden Ring and lore speculation - I'd be hooked! Ratatoskr what about a "round table hold round table" - you, smough, vaati, quelaag and tarnished archaeologist. (Others would be interesting too, Loki, Zuli (though Im not sure they speak 🤣)
Timeline (I think): Giants (worship meteors, first impact, create divine towers) -> Elden beast arrives (second impact) -> First tree civilisation: Dragons. Jurassic style great tree, that births many creatures -> Marika arrives and conquers -> Marika cuts down the great tree, and selects the sprout that will become the Erdtree (aka crucible era) -> Erdtree becomes the new great tree, and starts birthing humans only (aka age of plenty) -> First burning of the Erdtree; the Erdtree becomes the golden tree we see today, given the phycsical tree was burned -> night of the black knives and the shattering
The idea of the main golden erdtree sapping the light off of the dark one in the Shadow Lands makes me think of the Portrait of Dorian Gray. In that book the main character has a portrait of him that basicly ages and suffers for him: every wounds transfers to it, the face becomes older for him, and with every sin ue commits, the painting itself gets damaged. For a time he lives a careless life of hedonism and debauchery, for all the ailments just go to the painting. Maybe a similar situation takes place here, all the corruption or darkness from the main tree gets transfered to the shadow one. Thats why the tree shines with seemingly infinite light. Maybe even thats why theres two of them, there was so much evil to transfer that one wasnt enough.
I really wonder if we’ll get much lore that gives us an insight into Messmer’s relationship with Radagon (assuming they are family). I can’t imagine Radagon would be too fond of him, but I wonder how much Radagon is aware of him in the first place, and the Shadowlands itself.
The Marian Apparitions are really cool. As a Catholic, I find them an inspiring message of the unity of all people in Christ. It's also really interesting as a lens to see the symbolism of other cultures.
Melina survives even if you burn her apparantly. Because if you sacrifice her, then become the lord of the frenzied flame, you will still get the cutscene of her hunting you at the end of the game.
Em are you positive of that. Because I was talking to my brother who sacrificed her and then did the frenzy flame, and he didn't get the cutscene with Melina. He literally didn't even know it existed until I told him
@@perpetual_suffering1458 idk what google is on about. The entire reason i posted this was because of how bizarre and strange it was when i sacrificed melina just to test whether she still appears and she did. Its kinda like how rogier is still a spirit and fights as "mias champion" even when he isnt dead yet, aka if you get to the tree roots without talking to him in the home base area.
@addictiontransfer3731 brother, I've scoured through reddit, I've checked the official fandom wiki, I've checked the flextralife wiki, I've checked RUclips videos, every single one of them agree that melina doesn't show up if she's already being sacrificed. I mean this with peace and love, but when faced with overwhelming consensus from reddit, RUclips and both wikis I have a hard time believing every single one of them is wrong
Messmer's heroic element could be inspired more heavily by something like Dracula along the lines of the Netflix Castlevania. Like his original intention was to help someone or some group even though he harboured doubts, but through betrayal his suspicions were confirmed and he doubled down on the hatred.
I think Marika actually shattered the Elden Ring specifically because the Erdtree had died, it was no longer capable of producing life without harvesting the sap inside it directly. Godwyn had then been killed, and since there was no more life being made by the Erdtree, this scared Marika into thinking she would not be able to replace her demigod children if they all started to die. In retaliation of this, she broke the Elden Ring in order to make it so no more of her children could be killed, because now she was no longer able to use the Erdtree to do birthing rituals like what happened in the golden age of the Erdtree. Since the sap could still create life though but it no longer flowed from the dead Erdtree, she had to ensnare it and squeeze the sap from the core of the now dead and burned tree, but in order to hide all of this, she hid the dead Erdtree away in the shadowlands, and put Messmer in charge of keeping the law inside the shadowlands.
I had a personal theory that Marika had a whole long plan to expose the greater will with Ranni being the chosen one for the task. Marika knew Godwyn had to die, and did grieve. But it was all to get Ranni to the marriage ending
The Carian Knight build is pretty damn OP. That’s what I have going right now prepping for the DLC. Did a complete new game for this on PlayStation and I have my usual Samurai build going on PC for it.
My absolute crackpot theory about Messmer is that he isn't Marika's child at all, but rather an adopted child of the Gloam-Eyed Queen. I won't go over every detail but he has the physiology of a Godskin (long arms, pale skin, snake features) and seems instrumental in the very beginning of Marika's reign, when she presumably defeated the GEQ for the throne. There are a lot of Roman elements in the history of Elden Ring & adoption was a very common way for Romans to ensure succession. After Marika had Maliketh slaughter the GEQ's children, it's possible she left one alive (like the Fire Giant) and adopted him to legitimize her rule. EDIT: Made this comment before I finished y'alls discussion. Messmer as Marika's firstborn was my initial impression. It would kind of make sense with his Satan/Lucifer vibes but still wonder about his association with fire.
I could see them adding covenants as a colosseum type dlc/update for the game after balancing and patches are done. It would be a wonderful way to keep people playing
I think if our very own fire Maiden is the Gloam Eyed Queen, then Mesmer is her son and his line is referring to Malenia following us around. It would make sense to me that his black flame, associated with the gloam eyed queen, would reflect containing Destined Death. 1:14:19 I think an assumption is being made around this area that the Shattering happened immediately after the night of black knives. From my understanding, Godwyn dies and Ranni goes missing. Then Marika tries to give Godwyn an Erdtree Burial. That creates Deathroot. Then Marika decides to shatter the elden ring
Here's a crazy theory: Radahn has no feet because he's an Albinauric. In the opening cutscene we see him get stripped of the Grace which was keeping the Albinauric curse at bay. Without it his feet fade away, which is why he's kneeling down in the cutscene. So in response he uses his gravity magic to halt the stars and thus prevent his fate from coming to be.
I don't understand why people doubt that marika would've sacrificed Godwyn; she banished morgot and mohg to live in the sewers, killed Melina (who we think is her daughter) and left her burned and bodiless and fated to be immolated a second time, and straight up told the rest that if they didn't win a war that by definition only two at most could win they'd die she isn't exactly grade A mother material guys, she absolutely would've had him killed and not looked back
I think there may be something to the common theme of all things being joined together. Symbolized explicitly in the Crucible, it is also expressed in the Erdtree and its Golden Order, the Helphen and its ghost flame, the Great Serpent, Those who Live in Death, Golden Order Fundamentalism, the Haligtree, grafting, the conspectus of Raya Lucaria, and Dragon Communion. There may be more, these were just the ones I could think of. Thanks for the great discussion, I love listening to your thoughts.
Here is an idea, perhaps the shadow land was shaded away when the ring was shattered and all memories of the place removed. Perhaps something happened with the night of the black knives during a large battle and to end it merica hid it away...
I love the ending on the note of "nah man, I don't trust that Miyazaki bastard at all, he's messed with us before" because you just know that's exactly the reaction he wants from lore fiends lmao
So it was the Elden Beast, who crusified Marika I believe. Remember, he has that grab, that puts you on an arc just like Marika was. This tells me that Marika broke the Elden Ring, Radagon tried to fix it, and when he failed, he sealed the door shut. But then the Elden Beast crusified Marika/Radagon's body, so after that they are no longer active. I even think Radagon might have sealed the Erdtree to keep anyone from replacing him, but also to prevent the Elden Beast from leaving. Messmer once tried to burn the Erdtree. Melina tells us (I forgot where) that she was already used as kindling once, or maybe that she burned once before. That old lady near our fingers tells us that in order to burn the Erdtree we need a kindling and Destined Death. What it tells me is that when Messmer tried to burn the Erdtree, he used Melina to do it , but also that it happened before the Rune of Death was sealed. Maybe it was in Maliketh's blade by then, but not sealed in Farum Azula. And maybe when the Rune of Death is not in Farum Azula, that is enough for the Erdtree to be able to burn. This might mean that Marika sealed Destined Death specifically to save her tree. If you believe that Gloomeyed Queen wields the flame of death, which was red and now black since Destened Death is sealed, that might mean that assassins now wield black flame and use that as well es Godskin Apostles. And only after Rani' plot they received red flame back. But I don't know, they somehow ran out of it and returned to black flame? Melina is not the Gloomeyed Queen, I think. She is a kindling for the Erdtree. I always thought that the Gloomeyed Queen was Marika herself. And that she sealed a part of herself in Maliketh's blade. Remember, he is Marika's shadow. Sorry for bad English, I am not native.
I think Messmer's betrayal was killing Baby Melenia and burning the erdtree at the behest of the blood star. In that moment is when Marika removed the rune of death
I feel like it’s incredibly unlikely for Messmer to be Marika’s son, especially if he’s not Radagon’s son either and predates Radagon’s marriage to Marika. Messmer is most likely the grandson of Radagon, an illegitimate child of most likely Rykard but Malenia or another red headed child of Radagon isn’t out of the question either. The hair colour, the snakes, the fire magic, the spears, it all points to a connection to Rykard. Furthermore, Rykard was known as Praetor, which roughly means “judge” in Latin, this alludes to Rykard being some judicial figure in the golden order more than his siblings were. Messmer wields what looks similar to thorn sorcery in his hand when we first see him, a sorcery used by prisoners and exiles. The exile soldiers and banished knights most likely come from the lands of shadow too, banished from an unnamed penal colony, and the banished knights especially are covered in red cloth and dragon motifs, which to me makes me think they were at some point directly under the command of Messmer before some event led to their expulsion. As for the naming scheme not matching up (Messmer not starting with R like Rykard if he is his son), that’s sort of why I think he’s an illegitimate heir. Consider the following, Mohg and Morgott, who do not share the same naming scheme as their brother Godwyn, because they are omens. Morgott and Mohg have no legitimate claim to the elden throne, Morgott himself is a usurper and came to control Leyndell by simply taking it. Messmer is not named as a candidate to assume the position as the next elden lord by Morgott, so he most likely has zero legitimate claim to it, and perhaps isn’t even in possession of a great rune. It should also be mentioned that the trailer kind of implies that the mother who “Sanctions” us most likely is the female voice who brings us to the lands of shadow and will guide us through it as the role of “maiden” that Melina plays in the main game. I find the idea that this person is Marika to be incredibly unlikely. It’s probably a whole new female character who’s name starts with M, as much of a logical leap that might sound without the context of everything else I’ve said. Maybe Melina is related to Messmer, or even siblings and the mother who is mentioned by Messmer is Melina’s as well, and this figure is this “gloam eyed queen” that has been mentioned, if Messmer’s right eye is indeed sealed just like Melina’s
The Rune of Death is also called Destined Death because having it in the Elden Ring means that everything is destined to perish as a specific point in time, never earlier not later. Marika sealed it in Malekith to prevent the destined death she foresaw of Godwyn. However despite sealing it, Godwyn still died as destined via Ranni’s scheme. Hence she got so pissed by this that she shatters the Elden Ring.
Having to lose your body to enter this new land makes so much sense with the new power system we have had hinted at. The tarnished derives their power from the Golden Runes thanks to Melina! If you have to cast away "everything golden" to enter, the Tarnished would lose their progress. So smart if that's the case.
Thanks for having me on dude. Awesome being back on the podcast!
Ur the best souls lore channel out there
Too kind bud - thanks so much
@@SmoughTownyou're the best in the lore game man, your perfumers video was mind blowing
@@k1xnt That's Hawkshaw bud! Who is indeed an utterly stellar Lore creator
Yall are the best duo
I agree that snakes used to be allied to the Erd tree because you cannot be a traitor to the erd tree if you did not first start as an ally.
Might've been an ally to the previous order that was a precursor to the golden order sort of like if your dad's friend betrays you
working with a "snakes'll eat the rats trying to chew through your roots & fruit, but they're also not your friend" take
Another perspective is that often a tyrannical regime will consider all of it's subjugated people to be required as allies. For example, a nation could conquer another and declare themselves the new rulers of this place without their consent. Later, if someone from this conquered nation was to attack the conquerors, they might be labeled as a traitor despite never having pledged their allegiance.
For elden ring, it could be that the erdtree and it's ruling class considered all of the lands between as their rightful possession. This could mean that the snake or snakes were simply inhabitants of the lands between who were forced into submission by the erdtree and later decided to rebel. In the snake's eyes, they wouldn't be a traitor, but the erdtree might consider them as such.
I think your idea is more likely though, because not all enemies of the erdtree are labeled traitors, and rykard/messmer were clearly allied with the erdtree, though messmer might still be
"Gideon's got that lore posture" lmfao
You and SmoughTown have great podcaster chemistry. So easy and natural sounding, really fun to listen to.
My 2 favorite Elden Ring channels doing a podcast together, nice 🤙
I love hearing Ratatoskr say “OHHHHH!!!” That’s when u know it’s a damn good piece of lore or lore idea
GREAT video guys, can’t wait to hear the next podcast with both of you
This is a great podcast, but it's kinda funny that he said that in response to an explanation of Melina being GEQ. That's one of the oldest and most popular theories out there.
As a "legacy" (aka life-long) Zelda fan, I've found it heartening to be embraced by the FromSoft community. The crossovers and collaborations between Souls and Zelda lore channels have been a blast. It would be awesome to see a collab with Bandit or any other Zelda channels, or even a PvP tournament featuring a mix of different creators.
YES, a tournament would be awesome!
Growing up with Zelda myself, I always imagined the future of the franchise would resemble what FromSoft has done with DS & ER.
I think Miyazaki is borrowing from Plutarch’s The Faces of the Moon. In that he talks about the Death of Demeter aka the death of the body that occurs on the earth. The second death is the death of Persephone that is the separation of the mind from the spirit - the mind being the intellect and the soul being the life force energy - that occurs on the moon. Godwyn relates to the sun, but the sun god is connected to the underworld because that is where the sun is after it sets. Since he died the death of Persephone first, his mind is not present but if body still has vitality but without the mind his body is growing rampant. It would let surprise me if the dlc captures this duel lunar and underworld theme.
I absolutely love how they're conceptualizing the lands of the DLC. The idea of a land that was once part of the Lands between being veiled, possibly with the veils draped from the Divine Towers, that this land has its own culture with all of the things that the Golden Order would rather be obscured from view, that the Erdtree was planted here instead of at the base of some sheer cliffface, it's all so good.
I commented something very similar on a previous podcast, but the actual criticism of enemy variety is the Mountaintops of the Giants' open world areas specifically failing to introduce new enemies, especially in contrast to the early game which was throwing out new enemies left and right (its side content effectively uses enemies to not feel all that bad, however). Farum Azula has a great balance of new and reused enemies imo: the enemies they reuse fit perfectly in the area and they have enough new beastmen so that things are still interesting.
I agree with both comments. The veil thing is great to justify the new map not being present, similar to how Ooacile in DS1 was pretty well justified IMO.
And yes, it is a general consensus that it's just Mountaintops that utterly fails in giving you new enemies outside NPC invaders. Farum Azula by comparison has a tight balance between new and old enemies. The overall enemy variety in the game is still above most RPGs and the expansion will only increase it to high degrees.
Now that I think about it the empty space in the middle of the map really makes zero sense. Like looking at how wide that waterfall is between Caelid and mountaintops the water should be gone. So it being an actual illusion by the veil makes more sense than that the middle part is an infinite fountain.
I think that even though it isn’t as fun to have big open empty space in the mountaintops, it makes a lot of sense lore wise. It’s super fucking high up, it’s hard to get there, It’s the place of a big war whereafter it was forbidden to go. I mean yeah 🤷🏻♂️
Oh ok 😂😂
It's interesting, when you think about the end of the game, Radagon is killed and made onto the relic sword, the elden beast is killed which presumably rids the land of the greater will but Marika is still there.
So you're essentially separating them and getting rid of Radagon in the process. This could by why Marika needed the tarnished to have a weapon that could kill a God. So she could free herself from Radagon and the Greater will. So she could have total control with you as her new consort/puppet. As you guys discussed
Man there are so many tiny, tiny little things that slip past me where I don't even think "what are really the implications of this?"
@@buckyhurdle4776 exactly! I only said what I said here because of listening to their conversation and kind of connecting things in my brain.
We never actually see any indication that Marika is even there. We see her body. But body and spirit are divisible in the Lands Between. Marika never so much as moves. She drops when the Rune Arc breaks. But the only time we see motivity is when Radagon takes over. I'm not at all convinced that we see Marika in the Erdtree at all. It would be a strange plan to try to rul as a broken husk in the body that is used to seemingly control her.
I don't think she wants that body or anything to do with being a god anymore. Most of the known history of Marika is her striving to exert power only to come up against the fact that she is still not free, even as a god.
I'm pretty certain Marika is straight up dead when we kill the Elden Beast.
@@rainbowkrampusoh maybe it’s possible that she’s doing what miquella did and left her body and actually has returned to the shadow realms where she came a god, since she’s left her body now that it’s destroyed and she doesn’t have the elden ring anymore. (Ranni and miquella toss aside their runes and bodies after they are destroyed)
On Gideon getting it wrong, I was confused about it for a long time, but I think its actually quite simple. When you talk to Roderika about Hewg's mission, she says she can't help but view it as a curse, why? Because to her, making a weapon that can slay a god seems impossible. She interprets Marika giving Hewg that task as a form of punishment, like the boulder of Sisyphus. I think Gideon comes to a similar conclusion - he figures out that Marika wants the Tarnished to slay a god, and concludes that it must be Marika's wish that the Tarnished struggle for eternity. He thinks Marika is a mad woman who only wants suffering. Gideon, for all his cynicism, still sincerely believes "A man cannot kill a god".
Marika's real motivation in all this, I think, is forcing change. The hints from Melina suggest she's been planning the Shattering for a long time, since Godfrey was exiled at least. I don't think it was purely an emotional outburst at Godwyn's death, that doesn't fit, but I don't think she killed Godwyn either. I think instead Godwyn's death (and the spread of Deathroot) was the moment that spurred her to break out the "in case of civilizational collapse" Tarnished contingency she'd held in her back pocket for a long time. Marika sees the decline of the Golden Order and wants new blood to rule, and believes the best candidate will be proven through war. She doesn't really care what ideology shapes that rule (she gives grace to the fucking Dung Eater). Basically, she is a proponent of "might makes right" or "a crown is warranted with strength". Marika is an agent of violent change, Radagon is an agent of Order and unity. The game is about how these concepts relate to and contradict each other, Radagon/Marika is a clusterfuck but thats the point. Civilization is a messy, bloody, beautiful thing - that would be the "core" theme of Elden Ring in my view, and I feel confident of that even if it turns out I'm wrong about some of the specifics.
Agreed. I feel we've known the "main" theme of the game for a long time.
Motion vs. Stasis. Evolution vs. Devolution. Causality vs. Regression.
I think elden ring isnt meant to be 1 single theme. Its a full world, much more of one than all of their previous titles.
Its a dying world, with dozens, even hundreds of themes injected into it.
I believe the purpose is to bring all these themes together for different people to notice, so one main theme isnt there.
I feel like im doing a terrible job explaining this though.
@@normanbestboi9117 I kind of agree, but I think the fact that there are so many factions with their own themes builds upon the more central theme of conflict. The world isn't neatly divided into clear categories, its a battleground of ideologies.
@@saulgoneman i agree but i dont think elden ring is meant to be that peice with a central theme, its suppose to be a melting pot of themes so different people come to different conclusions.
It is possible however GRRM had a set theme in mind but it got lost when Miyazaki flipped the world into his own version.
This is Miyazaki 101, his obsession is to apply multi layered themes on top of each other, not everybody gets to peel all layers but everyone gets something for sure and this is how he wants to tell a story, like he says, he has the full picture in his head but wants us to come to our own conclusions.
A lot of people were complaining that Elden Ring didn't have AMAZING graphics, but I honestly think they made up for it with their art direction, which is just genuinely flawless.
What a great discussion. You should get Smough back on the podcast a few weeks or months after the dlc comes out so that you guys can discuss the new answers and theories that the dlc introduces.
It was a great conversation. It's worth anyone's time. Thanks Rata and Smough!
smoughtown is such a cool guy, i love that he keeps up with you and other communities. he’s a class act
This might seem like a cop out answer, but I think Marikas motivation might be intentionally unknowable in a lovecraftian sense. The same way the motivations of the old ones in bloodborne are unable to be fathomed by humans, marikas motivation might simply be totally incomprehensible.
However, I do suspect that because marika was mentioned explicitly by miyazaki to be featured in this dlc, we will likely get more insight into her actions.
Yep 100% agreed that even with DLC we will never 'truly know' - Marika/Radagon are a cosmic being beyond our comprehension.
Hence why Gideon was so easily confused after 'peeing into their will'
i feel like they are too personified to not have humanly comprehensible motivations. I think we just lack context to understand marika’s relationship to the Greater Will and the Golden Order and power overall
@@SmoughTown I know you mean peering, but "peeing into their will" is the funniest thing I've seen in a while.
@@alexterieur8813this is something I've thought about and I think it is probably correct in that their motivations are not as totally alien as literal aliens. However, I often consider the context of what themes miyazaki and grrm are trying to convey in their stories and for elden ring I'm certain it's analogous for the alchemical process, which others have pointed out before. As radagon and marika are the end state of the alchemical process, a rebus, they have undergone enlightenment and their minds are fully transformed. They perceive things differently to the unenlightened, and in this way they are incomprehensible. Sorry it that sounded totally deranged, hope it makes sense
@@SmoughTownthank you for the reply!
The DLC trailer got me really exited, so i started watching lore videos about it to hear others thoughts. And it was kinda frustrating nobody mentioned the following: What caught my eyes in the trailer was the portrait of an old man and a woman. I thought the woman looked familiar. It seemed to me she was somehow similar to enemy npc that attack you near the Shaded Castle. But this wasn't quite the case. I decided to look around some more nonetheless, and there it was. The Shaded Castle boss, Elemer of the Briar drops Marais Executioner's Sword and Briar Greatshield. Briar Greatshield has an image on it of a skinny pale dude wrapped in red cloth and surrounded by flame and skeletons. Who else can it be if not Messmer the Impaler. Item description: "Greatshield from a foreign land Originates from Eochaid, a land of proudly solitary ascetics." This is amazing such hint existed in-game all this time, even though you couldn't figure it out until you saw some pointers. Makes you appreciate just how much effort was put into the story.
Shadow Lands aren't a foreign land though. They were a part of the Lands Between and became separated through unknown means.
Also, Elemer's armor was given to him after his capture in Caelid. It seems to have been a kind of mockery.
Eochaid is basically Ireland, if in game descriptions are anything to go by. Most likely it was someplace outside of the Land Between.
@@rainbowkrampus Yeah i saw some bits about Ireland and that the giant burning cage man being a reference to Ireland's folklore. So it only proven things to me. Also the description of another item which reads a little bit differently: "Treasured sword of Eochaid, a lesser, long-vanished domain."
Bro this makes a LOT of sense, I'll come back to congratulate you if u end up being right
@@rainbowkrampus it doesn't really seem like Ireland outside of the origin of the name. i also agree that it was probably located way away from the Lands Between. it seems like its one of these places that are pretty common in souls games that are referred to in only a few mysterious sentences, with a bit of armour, a few characters, and minor lore thrown in like Carim or Carthus or Astora
@@scutterybuttery449It is very Ireland-like. It's described as a land of ascetics. It's referencing the christianization period where monasteries were established and regularly raided. That's what Elemer's whole deal is. He came to the Land Between for revenge on Godfrey who was basically a viking who raided and destroyed Elemer's home.
Holy moly!! Smoughtown and Rata?? No one told me the Wisemen’s Committee was in town? Love it!!
One of the things I felt about other from software games was there is this amazing deception leading to a boss fight. Every FS game has it. I really hope this DLC has it too.
Some of the memorable ones are Gehrman, Laurence, Gael
Wow, what a buffet of lore and theory! I love it. Now let me digest all this.
i think the Theme of Elden Ring is the relationship of spirit, soul and body. how do they affect each other? what is more essential to a person, or is it the combination? how does death affect them?
you can relate most factions and characters to this idea.
- albinaurics don't have souls.
- ranni and miquella don't have bodies, while
- godwyn and those who live in death don't have a spirit.
- godrick tries to enhance his body, but his soul does not change.
- radahn loses most of his spirit and body through rot, but his soul seems to remain (as seen in a certain underlying dignity).
- marika/radagon are the same entity, but it's not 100% clear what is shared between them. they appear to share a body, but have separate spirits. do they share a soul? miquella/st. trina may be in a similar situation.
- the fire giant also houses another entity in his body.
- D are 2 bodies with 1 soul.
- dragon communion and the primeval current change your body if the soul or spirit is exposed to them (into magma wyrms or glintstone brains).
- spirit ashes produce a body from the spirit, probably?
- rykard feeds his body to the serpent, but consumes or merges with the snake's soul and/or spirit. it's not clear how much of the serpent remains, beside the body.
the following points can probably be connected to the theme as well
- graven schools are amalgamations of lots of sorcerers. what parts of them are connected?
- beastmen are beasts that were granted more human-like bodies, which apparently also elevated their spirits to a step above beasts?
- it feels like omens, misbegotten and demi-humans fit into this theme as well, though i don't know how exactly.
- revenants, who are different from those who live in death. they have something going on with their bodies, but what about soul and spirit?
i think each faction/character represents a different take on the theme. spirit, soul and body each influence each other. but what if one or more of the three are missing or altered?
it's all so big that i can't wrap my head around it. is there a certain message the theme, in its expression, conveys? it is probably made to make the player think and derive their own message, depending on what they see in the game. however, there may still be some more concrete statements to discover.
for a long time, i've thought that Elden Ring is about death and different forms of life, but now i think this can be viewed as a sub-theme. i'm also not sure if the theme i suggest is too broad to be meaningful and if there is a more specific theme hidden in ER.
what are your thoughts on this? maybe someone with a better understanding of the lore will find a way to interpret this theme more consistently, or know more evidence for or against this.
analyzing the trifecta of body-soul-mind is really interesting and clearly a major theme in the game but i also can’t wrap my head around what could the game want to tell us about this triad of human nature.
Maybe a lesson to take care of all three : Take care of your body, stay curious and questionning things and take care of your soul maybe with art or creativity or human relationships. A lesson to strive for a balance of the three in order to achieve or get closer to a perfect existence. Or at least a complete existence.
After all we see tons of character who lack one or even 2 of the three and they aren’t doing very well.
I think a lot of what the game is trying to tell us is that a lack of balance can have disastrous effect. Too much order and you got a super fundamentalist and genocidal society. Too much chaos and then there is only destruction. A balance must be striken in order for things to evolve and possibly get better ? A body and no soul and you’re a decaying mass of deathroot, a mind with no body and you lose sight of the value of life (Ranni and her plotting), no soul and you’re fated to go extinct (the albinaurics). My thoughts aren’t precise but i think the game is trying to teach us the value of Balance.
@@alexterieur8813I agree and see this in the concepts of Causality and Regression. The push and pull of time and societal/biological evolution.
When change occurs too quickly or all at once, there ceases to be refinement. Things appear broken and on the brink of chaos.
When things are stagnant there is no growth or innovation. Ultimately leading to self destruction from within the organism or system.
Balance is forsure a major theme.
I really need Queelag as a guest on this podcast. I think you two would make a great pair discussing elden ring and its dlc's lore. Loved this episode!
1:13:58 just remember a funny thing. At the end of Ragnorock, the radiant and beloved Balder, killed by Loki, (which some speculate is was a Odin stand in for the story ) set the end times in motion, and later comes back to life in the new world.
We know that Ranni using Godwyn as a totem, causing him to half die was not something even the assassin expected.
You could also speculate Godwyn was expected to die properly if you read between the lines of the deep root depths finger reader.
Miqula wishes death for his brother, but this is also a land were death is a metamorphic force, not an ending, so a following resurrection may be a unsead implying.
In addition being a beloved hero of the dragon war can be reason enough for a ruler kill their spawn (sounds like a Game of thrones motive).
But what we say is inconclusive as we need more lore to fill in this massive speculation holes.
correct me if im wrong but from what i understand when Ranni kill Godwyn she doesnt know he will be half dead because from what i understand dead wasnt a thing before/while killing Godwyn it become a thing after the assassins' took the dead rune so Godwyn wasnt part of first to actually die (i hope that make sense)
You and I know full well that we won't get the actual picture, no matter how much we get excited, all we are going to get is super disconnected bits and bobs of the Lore.
@@vinodchhabria8738 can’t wait for the confusingly mistranslated sentence that hints Elden John and the dung eater were the black knife that killed Godwyn.
We already roped in godskins, let’s have everyone in on the conspiracy expect the tarnished.
This was like listening to 2 old friends chat about the good ole days. Great to listen to and love the ideas especially about Messmer being the very firstborn of Marika. I really think the land of Shadow is just like a dump site of all things that Marika wants to put away and hide so her age was viewed as this perfect slice of heaven and it ends up corrupting the land and all things in this realm she first set foot in
I think messemer might also be cursed. He looks sickly and has an associated butterfly. Afterall, we know these lands are full of things cursed and heretical. Blood, flame, thorns, serpents, we even see the fire butterflies near the thorn mages who are most likely from the shadowlands.
The overlap of symbolism makes this bit so confusing for me…
The thorn mage women seem to originate from the windmill villages, thorns seem to have impaled the dead giants in the Mountaintops, the fire butterflies might be associated with Melina, and fire has multiple associations… the blood flame, yellow chaos flame, flame of the fell giant, white ghostflame.
It makes my brain hurt but it’s fun to guess.
I agree.
Following the logic of the other children of the Marika-Radagon pairing, Messmer should be cursed and have a golden haired twin.
Maybe miquella wants us to defeat Messmer because of reasons 😂😂😂
@@The.Nasty. what if messmers flame is the origin of flame, or he at least currently holds the origin of flame... and it's like the original thing representing going against the erdtree itself in all forms. Perhaps the flame of ambition?
@@Zeekarmaybe Godwyn isn't really the son of Godfrey, and is Mesmer's missing half.
Great discussion, I love the peak “unknowing” occurring after two years of digestion, now the dlc trailer dropped everything can be reconsidered, even by a tiny degree. So much fun. Good chat guys thanks!
I still hold fast that Radagon is the OG. We know that he is a fire giant and he saw the red hair(their connection to the Fel god) as a curse.
So either he was fused with Marika when they became a god or he was changed as part of accepting the role. Radagon might so loyal to the Greater will, just because it granted him liberation from the Fel God and why Marika was the central figure of the two.
Great timing! Looking forward to this discussion!
So glad I caught this, even if on replay. Thanks for letting us in on your chat!
It would make sense if Melina and messmer were twins because then death and fire would be intertwined just like how abundance and decay are intertwined
Rata and Smough together again ! this is truly the best of times !
“How does it become all about Ranni?” Every character is the main character in their own story. I was taken with the argument that Miquella compelled Ranni to shed her own flesh as a test to see if he would survive if he did the same. Ranni benefitted the most in the quest where you aid her, but hers is just one of 6 endings.
What I would want elaborated on : What is the culture, how was it working and when, revolving around the Deathbirds, the society when Death was there. Is it gloam eyed queen time, or unrelated ? was it during the crucible ? Was it a natural order the world, or one ordained by the elden ring but before marika / golden order ? The Deathbirds time are so opaque to me i feel
yeah i wonder if The Deathbird culture/era coexisted with the crucible or if they were different periods
The Deathbird culture could actually be a religion that celebrated death in the era of the crucible when destined death was a fundamental truth
Yes!!! The Yggdrasil podcast is back
Really enjoyed this episode! big fan of SmoughTown.
In terms of appearance, Messmer the Implaer looks a lot like Elric of Melniboné. They have similar dragon helmets, their clothes are similar, and if you look at the blade of Messmer's sword-spear the blade is black like Elric's sword Stormbringer.
Elric is heavily associated with dragons (and may or may not be descended from dragons), and while Messmer has snakes coiled around him, he does have dragon wings on both his weapon and helmet. Also, both dragons and snakes are described as serpents, which are used interchangeably with each other in the Bible.
And let's also look at the "Impaler" part of Messmer's name. Obviously, this is in reference to Vlad the Impaler, or what he is more famously known as Dracula. Dracula when translated into English means "Son of the Dragon". So, Messmer has a lot of associations with dragons, he even has eyes like a dragon.
Fun Facts: George R.R. Martin used both Elric and his fellow Melnibonéans as the inspiration for House Targaryen. There even was a reference to Stormbringer in the show. In season 4, episode 2 Joffrey asks the crowd what he should name his new sword, and someone cries out "STORMBRINGER".
As far as real life armor influences for Messmer's armor, it reminds me of Roman Lorica Squamata (plated) armor. The face guards, the open toes, the gauntlets, and red color scheme.
1:06:19 I’m of the opinion that Radagon is dead. Not only do we kill him, but his corpse got turned into the sacred relic sword CANONICALLY by the elden beast, and CANONICALLY AFTERWORDS, Marika’s body can be restored, altered, etc. I assume Radagon didn’t get waxed into the sword, but then remerged into the Marika’s body after that. The whole sequence of the final fight feels like the big reveal of the guy with autonomy, the guy with the power, Radagon is the one who lifts the hammer.
I love Ratatoskr’s sardonic sense of humor.
great conversation! +1 for tarnished archeologist. He is definitely on another level of analyzing game's environment
Melina could be a projection to the tarnished of messmer and he used a pretty maiden type puppet or projection to converse with the tarnished to bring the end of the order, melina’s story could be messmer telling us of his life
Messmer is not mentioned the entire time, or he was in the story the entire time
She has the serpent tattoo, the same closed eye and messmer would have to be burned and bodyless to be in the land of shadow
Another theory is melina and messmer could have marika and radagons ability to be the same person
her being his envoy or projection or something like that is really interesting. Going the undercover way as to not arise suspicion from the tarnished or even the golden order by impersonating a soft spoken maiden is genius. Melina being able to use erdtree incantations would still make sense as Messmer is still a child of Marika so he could definitely be using Erdtree incantations to fool everyone
I like this theory but the ending with her "becoming" the Gloam Eyed Queen sort of throws a wrench into it
@@ATC43 that’s only speculation, nowhere does it say she’s the gloameyed queen, just because she opens the eye, doesn’t mean anything
Always nice to see collab between two of my favorite Souls-tubers together. Would love to see you do another one of these with Sophie from Sinclair Lore.
Two of my favorite content creators collaborating
Only a few minutes in so far, but really looking forward to this convo. 2 of my favorite creators right here!
Thanks buddy! It was a great conversation
Pertaining to the intertwined trees, I don’t see anyone pointing out how the Haligtree also consists of two parts seemingly intertwining.
There’s also imagery here evoking the double helix, also symbolized in Marika’s/Radagon’s braid, the fingerslayer blade, and the tree monk statues, but it is broken at the end, as symbolized by the godslayer greatsword.
This was an awesome convo.
I loved this podcast. We need these two together more often!
Finger Reader Enia offers a pretty dialogue line leading up the DLC: "The Rune of Death goes by two names; the other is Destined Death.
The forbidden shadow, plucked from the Golden Order upon its creation..." she says this in relation to the Cardinal Sin
Great team up guys, brilliant work
Jolly cooperation, some of the best speculation ive heard between two parties
I still think of Radagon and Marika as very similar to the Nameless Namekian from Dragon Ball. He was once one being who got split into two due to an inner conflict. This created Piccolo and Kami, two people with opposing viewpoints, but that still shared one soul. If one died, so did the other. They later reconcile and remerge back into one person.
I think something caused Merika to grow the second personality that was Radagon. They would grow so distinct that they would eventually split, but still share a soul. It just does not make any sense lore wise, that they always shared the same body. They needed to be at different locations at the same time. They then later agreed to refuse when they got married, or they just always had the ability to fuse and separate at will.
I theorise that the Shadow tree is the tap root of the Erdtree and the game will be set in the spirit world, on the underside of the Lands Between, literally in the shadow of the Erdtree.
I support the idea that the current, golden Erdtree is a newer, cultivated growth on a much older Erdtree/Greattree aka the crucible. And the current Erdtree was cultivated when the Rune of Death was removed.
In fact, in the recent interviews Miyazaki said: "the shadow lands are where Marika became a god and where the Erdtree was born."
This implies that the Erdtree was born when Marika became a god by what she did in the Land of Shadow. I suggest what she did there was remove the Rune of Death, which if you look at the oldest symbol of the Elden Ring, in Malikeths arena, you can see it features at the very bottom tip, pointing out below the other roots. In the current/pre-shattering Elden Ring a trellis appears in place of these roots and the bottom is blocked off by the rune arc, described as the "basin in which its blessings (aka eternal life) pool". Previously life did not pool here, it travelled down the roots, to meet Destined Death in the spirit world. This is why the Lands Between are now like a spirit world, your soul is caught in the basin of the Erdtree, this is where you first awake at the start of the game and then reborn into the Lands Between.
The Rune of Death also very closely resembles the Helphen Steeple, who's light, opposite of grace, guides the dead instead of the living.
Enia also says that the rune of death was "the forbidden shadow, plucked from the golden order upon its creation"
So the shadow realm was physically disconnected from the lands between, when Marika removed the rune of death, replacing it with the rune arc.
Godwyns Deathroot could therefore bring about those who live in death by partially reconnecting the Erdtree to the Land of Shadow, physically reaching down and entangling the Shadow Tree within the spirit world.
This is why those who live in death are the weak and the many who lie in waiting, their souls were trapped in the shadow realm at the point the golden order was established. But they represent the antithesis of the Golden Order and so are shunned, despite their innocence.
Further to this, just visually I think the shadow tree looks far more like a pair of entangled roots than a tree.
I had a thought after one of you had the suggestion that Messmer might have been born prior to Radagon & Marika’s “marriage”. Perhaps much closer to the crucible. If so, that would make him the only named demigod who was born out of wedlock & perhaps that has something to do with his status away from from the royal family & why he might embrace all of this forbidden imagery.
Just throwing this out there, its possible Melina is a split from Mesmer that he "burnt off".
This wraps up a couple of lore bits in a nice little bow (and yet still leaves many questions).
It explains why she is bodyless, preserves both the butterfly theory and the "rule of three" when it comes to important demigod children that both Marika-Godfrey and Rennala-Radagon had going on, and explains how Melina has Torrent, she met Miquella in the Shadow lands.
Love both of your channels! These podcasts with you two are great!
Re: Black flame on Iji. That's what happens when you attack a carian troll with the skill of the black knife (blade of death) that red projectile when it lands on a carian troll creates a black flame. Try it on a carian troll and see.
Thanks for sharing. I shall try that out of curiosity as well
Very interested in a possible continuation of your "Heroic Concept" series!
I love it when you two get together. Love you both separately too dont get me wrong lol. But when you both start swapping ideas, its a great time!
I can’t wait to hear the breakdown of the DLC from these guys.
The hardest part of Elden Ring’s lore for me is the time line ‘a while after Godwyn’s death Marika shattered the Elden Ring’ what is a while?
When did Maliketh kill the demigod children? Who’s demigod children? Is he the reason we have the wondering mausoleums? When was the Shadow Land veiled and it had to be a long time ago or we would know it had been veiled unless the veil affected everyone’s memory. There are so many questions and so few answers.
Talking about things being spatially displaced, thinking of the lecture halls from bloodborne for example. In fromsoft there are so many locations that have actually always been there and yet somehow we’ve never had the right perspective on them, or it requires a mixture of a physical and spiritual journey to access them, like archdragon peak, the hidden verticality of the nightmare in bloodborne, the fountainhead palace in sekiro, the ringed city and fields of ash - all follow a theme of being obscured, but technically always there just hidden from us
Iirc the name "Eochaid" comes from a play called 'The Immortal Hour' and it has a lot of parallels to some of the Elden RIng lore, which makes sense.
What an awesome chat. I loved all the speculation and ideas thrown out.
I will say, I had always assumed Marika had to assassinate Godwyn because potentially he was the only Demi God capable of stopping her plan, and his fundamentalism would have just reinstated what Radagon wanted. But that was just my own assumption.
Thanks for this Podcast, it definitely helps pass the time til June 21. 🔥
its so crazy its been 2 years
Our lady of Guadalupe is canon catholic lore yes 😂
What if being 'burned and bodiless' is similar to soul form in Demon's Souls, where you were capped at half HP. So if you need to be bodiless to go to the shadow lands, you start with that soul form esque handicap (also applying to attack power in this case) and the sekiro system Miyazaki mentioned refers to gaining tokens that permanently mitigate that handicap, getting you closer to what in Demon's Souls would have been called body form.
I loregasmed a couple times, boys. Wonderful talk 🤙 Fucking stoked for the 21st
Gross
@@patrickkinnear8625 I’m sorry. I cannot tell a lie
I am not a podcast person typically but this is great. (edit: add indefinite article)
I saw a theory from a smaller lore channel that suggested Mequella IS Torrent. It’s based on a mythology of a shapeshifter who takes the form of a the specific breed of horse Torrent is. It was wild and so good 😂
I hope the DLC explains what Marikas motivation even was for shattering the Elden Ring. Seems like an important piece of the puzzle that's basically never explained.
Well as far as the one story trailer goes: Godwyns death pushed Marika to the brink and shattered the Elden Ring as a result
@@insertedgynamehere___969 I know, but I feel like the game kind of hinted at something more going on than that. Or maybe I'm just overthinking this and Godwyns death is the real reason.
So, i just had the strangest idea about the upcoming DLC;
What if Messmer is really Godwyn?
Like a poisoned and corrupted aspect of his, that Miquella is trying to safe?
As we will be able to meet Miquella there, despite his body being still inside the coucoon, it stands to reason that the shadowland is reachable throgh ones dreams. Now, Godwyn is courently in a similar situation, while still suffering from the deathblight, you can also see some physical similarities between him and Messmer.
But thats all just specultion of course
and there are some glaring lore-bits, that dont quite line up...
I watched this when it came out but returning now to give due credit. Rata you are awesome, the way you asked questions exposing how much is up in the air made me drop my theory crafting and go just read up on all the lore and try to absorb as much as I could about the lore. I also watched countless lore videos from dozens of creators, to bounce ideas off of and learn new stuff. Currently doing a lore run.
Continue on if you genuinely "want schizophrenic", but also well researched theories addressing the Radagon questions.
"Radagon is Marika" but Marika is NOT Radagon. Or, she wasn't before they conjoined during the shattering. Radagon was a mimic of Marikas creation, which she knew how to create being from the eternal city where mimics originate. The purpose of this mimic was to be a "leal hound of the Golden Order", a perfect vassal and future Elden Lord.
In the Forlorn Cave, she mixed into her mimic some essence of the crucible, giving him savage strength and red hair. She mixed the essence of some of her erdtree faithful and erdtree hero's, making him a Golden Order fanatic who's sole purpose is to serve the Erdtree. And finally she puts a shard of the Elden Ring itself in him, giving him great power and making him a potential vessel of the Elden Ring.
This means he was created after she had the Elden Ring, likely soon after. It was during the wars when "all opposed the erdtree", but before the liurnia and giant part of the wars.
Main evidence is Kosmos video on how Radagon is a mimic of Marika ( ruclips.net/video/X_4n8j-5Cqk/видео.htmlsi=jv4POvziCfx6wkME credit to Kosmos). The cut mimic tear quest and Melina dialogues are crucial. The rest about Radagons essence, I put together from visiting the Forlorn Cave on a lore run. The Forlorn Cave is a masterpiece in environmental storytelling, but the mimic tear quest was cut so it went over our heads. The game makes it pretty clear the process of creating Radagon took place there, just pay attention to object/enemy placement and item descriptions in there. The only things out of place is the dragon (just a corpse I think), and hints Miquella visited this cave before us.
Still working on this theory, looking for more evidence still but I've been obsessing over ER lore since the DLC trailer, and it finally feels like I'm starting to put some big pieces together.
It was fun seeing Rata go full Gideon here and jam his face straight into the theory-crafting.
I do kinda wonder if Rata is having a hard time knowing what the game is about more broadly because of his life experience though. To me the game is about legacy and unburdening oneself from the past. I keep asking people if they've ever noticed the similarities between Marika and a middle aged Japanese video game developer.
Marika is basically Miyazaki. They built their kingdoms. They sent their "children" out into the world. They were tried and tested. And now they are at a point in their lives where they are stepping back and delegating responsibility to new people.
Elden Ring, in my view, is a sort of coming to terms with the process of ageing and taking on different roles. Miyazaki is now the head of From and he has to grow the company in ways that he alone cannot accomplish. He's clearly arranging things such that others can take the lead and still produce games of the quality we've come to expect from From. Marika is doing the same sorts of things but on a grander, more melodramatic scale. Instead of video games, it's her children.
Definitely an interesting coincidence that he said this exact thing recently. But he also said he wants to highlight human ambition in this game. Ambition for what though? Changing the world order?
@@andrewbowen2837 Maybe. The Souls games embraced a notion that we have to let things run their natural course.
But AC6 has a very strong message that we need to be more than passive observers. Its final ending all but states that we cannot keep doing things as we have been doing them and that we have to embrace change, however frightening and unknown it may be.
Whether this notion will carry over to the DLC and how that might play out is hard to say at this point. Frankly, I'm still trying to wrap my head around Messmer. The ramifications of a subtle shift in ideological messaging is way outside of my calculations right now lol.
I'm excited to see where things land though.
Is it sad that I'm just starting my 3rd full listen of this. I sort of wish there was a podcast every day about FromSoft and Elden Ring and lore speculation - I'd be hooked!
Ratatoskr what about a "round table hold round table" - you, smough, vaati, quelaag and tarnished archaeologist. (Others would be interesting too, Loki, Zuli (though Im not sure they speak 🤣)
Timeline (I think): Giants (worship meteors, first impact, create divine towers) -> Elden beast arrives (second impact) -> First tree civilisation: Dragons. Jurassic style great tree, that births many creatures -> Marika arrives and conquers -> Marika cuts down the great tree, and selects the sprout that will become the Erdtree (aka crucible era) -> Erdtree becomes the new great tree, and starts birthing humans only (aka age of plenty) -> First burning of the Erdtree; the Erdtree becomes the golden tree we see today, given the phycsical tree was burned -> night of the black knives and the shattering
That was one of the best and most interesting podcasts I recently saw 👏
The idea of the main golden erdtree sapping the light off of the dark one in the Shadow Lands makes me think of the Portrait of Dorian Gray. In that book the main character has a portrait of him that basicly ages and suffers for him: every wounds transfers to it, the face becomes older for him, and with every sin ue commits, the painting itself gets damaged. For a time he lives a careless life of hedonism and debauchery, for all the ailments just go to the painting. Maybe a similar situation takes place here, all the corruption or darkness from the main tree gets transfered to the shadow one. Thats why the tree shines with seemingly infinite light. Maybe even thats why theres two of them, there was so much evil to transfer that one wasnt enough.
I still like the idea of Messmer having something to do with the impaled giants in the mountaintops
I really wonder if we’ll get much lore that gives us an insight into Messmer’s relationship with Radagon (assuming they are family). I can’t imagine Radagon would be too fond of him, but I wonder how much Radagon is aware of him in the first place, and the Shadowlands itself.
Radagon being born within marika during the war with the fire giants could explain his appearance and feelings toward them.
The Marian Apparitions are really cool. As a Catholic, I find them an inspiring message of the unity of all people in Christ. It's also really interesting as a lens to see the symbolism of other cultures.
Love every second of shadow of the erdtree content. 🙏🙏
Melina survives even if you burn her apparantly. Because if you sacrifice her, then become the lord of the frenzied flame, you will still get the cutscene of her hunting you at the end of the game.
Em are you positive of that. Because I was talking to my brother who sacrificed her and then did the frenzy flame, and he didn't get the cutscene with Melina. He literally didn't even know it existed until I told him
Yea I just googled it, you're incorrect, the scene with Melina never appears if you sacrifice her before embracing the flame of frenzy
@@perpetual_suffering1458 google is wrong lol try it yourself.
@@perpetual_suffering1458 idk what google is on about. The entire reason i posted this was because of how bizarre and strange it was when i sacrificed melina just to test whether she still appears and she did. Its kinda like how rogier is still a spirit and fights as "mias champion" even when he isnt dead yet, aka if you get to the tree roots without talking to him in the home base area.
@addictiontransfer3731 brother, I've scoured through reddit, I've checked the official fandom wiki, I've checked the flextralife wiki, I've checked RUclips videos, every single one of them agree that melina doesn't show up if she's already being sacrificed. I mean this with peace and love, but when faced with overwhelming consensus from reddit, RUclips and both wikis I have a hard time believing every single one of them is wrong
Messmer's heroic element could be inspired more heavily by something like Dracula along the lines of the Netflix Castlevania. Like his original intention was to help someone or some group even though he harboured doubts, but through betrayal his suspicions were confirmed and he doubled down on the hatred.
It was fun listening you two!
Great episode! Messemer means 'knife maker' in old German! Do you think he made the black knives used to kill Goldwyn?
I think Marika actually shattered the Elden Ring specifically because the Erdtree had died, it was no longer capable of producing life without harvesting the sap inside it directly. Godwyn had then been killed, and since there was no more life being made by the Erdtree, this scared Marika into thinking she would not be able to replace her demigod children if they all started to die. In retaliation of this, she broke the Elden Ring in order to make it so no more of her children could be killed, because now she was no longer able to use the Erdtree to do birthing rituals like what happened in the golden age of the Erdtree. Since the sap could still create life though but it no longer flowed from the dead Erdtree, she had to ensnare it and squeeze the sap from the core of the now dead and burned tree, but in order to hide all of this, she hid the dead Erdtree away in the shadowlands, and put Messmer in charge of keeping the law inside the shadowlands.
You work perfectly for a podcast
I had a personal theory that Marika had a whole long plan to expose the greater will with Ranni being the chosen one for the task. Marika knew Godwyn had to die, and did grieve. But it was all to get Ranni to the marriage ending
The Carian Knight build is pretty damn OP. That’s what I have going right now prepping for the DLC. Did a complete new game for this on PlayStation and I have my usual Samurai build going on PC for it.
My absolute crackpot theory about Messmer is that he isn't Marika's child at all, but rather an adopted child of the Gloam-Eyed Queen. I won't go over every detail but he has the physiology of a Godskin (long arms, pale skin, snake features) and seems instrumental in the very beginning of Marika's reign, when she presumably defeated the GEQ for the throne.
There are a lot of Roman elements in the history of Elden Ring & adoption was a very common way for Romans to ensure succession. After Marika had Maliketh slaughter the GEQ's children, it's possible she left one alive (like the Fire Giant) and adopted him to legitimize her rule.
EDIT: Made this comment before I finished y'alls discussion. Messmer as Marika's firstborn was my initial impression. It would kind of make sense with his Satan/Lucifer vibes but still wonder about his association with fire.
I could see them adding covenants as a colosseum type dlc/update for the game after balancing and patches are done. It would be a wonderful way to keep people playing
I think if our very own fire Maiden is the Gloam Eyed Queen, then Mesmer is her son and his line is referring to Malenia following us around. It would make sense to me that his black flame, associated with the gloam eyed queen, would reflect containing Destined Death.
1:14:19 I think an assumption is being made around this area that the Shattering happened immediately after the night of black knives. From my understanding, Godwyn dies and Ranni goes missing. Then Marika tries to give Godwyn an Erdtree Burial. That creates Deathroot. Then Marika decides to shatter the elden ring
Here's a crazy theory: Radahn has no feet because he's an Albinauric. In the opening cutscene we see him get stripped of the Grace which was keeping the Albinauric curse at bay. Without it his feet fade away, which is why he's kneeling down in the cutscene. So in response he uses his gravity magic to halt the stars and thus prevent his fate from coming to be.
I don't understand why people doubt that marika would've sacrificed Godwyn; she banished morgot and mohg to live in the sewers, killed Melina (who we think is her daughter) and left her burned and bodiless and fated to be immolated a second time, and straight up told the rest that if they didn't win a war that by definition only two at most could win they'd die
she isn't exactly grade A mother material guys, she absolutely would've had him killed and not looked back
Yup she seems to have a very harsh disposition towards her children. She seems to raise them to be ambitious or worthless.
I think there may be something to the common theme of all things being joined together. Symbolized explicitly in the Crucible, it is also expressed in the Erdtree and its Golden Order, the Helphen and its ghost flame, the Great Serpent, Those who Live in Death, Golden Order Fundamentalism, the Haligtree, grafting, the conspectus of Raya Lucaria, and Dragon Communion. There may be more, these were just the ones I could think of.
Thanks for the great discussion, I love listening to your thoughts.
Here is an idea, perhaps the shadow land was shaded away when the ring was shattered and all memories of the place removed. Perhaps something happened with the night of the black knives during a large battle and to end it merica hid it away...
I love the ending on the note of "nah man, I don't trust that Miyazaki bastard at all, he's messed with us before" because you just know that's exactly the reaction he wants from lore fiends lmao
So it was the Elden Beast, who crusified Marika I believe. Remember, he has that grab, that puts you on an arc just like Marika was. This tells me that Marika broke the Elden Ring, Radagon tried to fix it, and when he failed, he sealed the door shut. But then the Elden Beast crusified Marika/Radagon's body, so after that they are no longer active. I even think Radagon might have sealed the Erdtree to keep anyone from replacing him, but also to prevent the Elden Beast from leaving.
Messmer once tried to burn the Erdtree. Melina tells us (I forgot where) that she was already used as kindling once, or maybe that she burned once before. That old lady near our fingers tells us that in order to burn the Erdtree we need a kindling and Destined Death. What it tells me is that when Messmer tried to burn the Erdtree, he used Melina to do it , but also that it happened before the Rune of Death was sealed. Maybe it was in Maliketh's blade by then, but not sealed in Farum Azula. And maybe when the Rune of Death is not in Farum Azula, that is enough for the Erdtree to be able to burn. This might mean that Marika sealed Destined Death specifically to save her tree.
If you believe that Gloomeyed Queen wields the flame of death, which was red and now black since Destened Death is sealed, that might mean that assassins now wield black flame and use that as well es Godskin Apostles. And only after Rani' plot they received red flame back. But I don't know, they somehow ran out of it and returned to black flame? Melina is not the Gloomeyed Queen, I think. She is a kindling for the Erdtree. I always thought that the Gloomeyed Queen was Marika herself. And that she sealed a part of herself in Maliketh's blade. Remember, he is Marika's shadow.
Sorry for bad English, I am not native.
I think Messmer's betrayal was killing Baby Melenia and burning the erdtree at the behest of the blood star. In that moment is when Marika removed the rune of death
I feel like it’s incredibly unlikely for Messmer to be Marika’s son, especially if he’s not Radagon’s son either and predates Radagon’s marriage to Marika.
Messmer is most likely the grandson of Radagon, an illegitimate child of most likely Rykard but Malenia or another red headed child of Radagon isn’t out of the question either.
The hair colour, the snakes, the fire magic, the spears, it all points to a connection to Rykard. Furthermore, Rykard was known as Praetor, which roughly means “judge” in Latin, this alludes to Rykard being some judicial figure in the golden order more than his siblings were. Messmer wields what looks similar to thorn sorcery in his hand when we first see him, a sorcery used by prisoners and exiles. The exile soldiers and banished knights most likely come from the lands of shadow too, banished from an unnamed penal colony, and the banished knights especially are covered in red cloth and dragon motifs, which to me makes me think they were at some point directly under the command of Messmer before some event led to their expulsion.
As for the naming scheme not matching up (Messmer not starting with R like Rykard if he is his son), that’s sort of why I think he’s an illegitimate heir. Consider the following, Mohg and Morgott, who do not share the same naming scheme as their brother Godwyn, because they are omens. Morgott and Mohg have no legitimate claim to the elden throne, Morgott himself is a usurper and came to control Leyndell by simply taking it. Messmer is not named as a candidate to assume the position as the next elden lord by Morgott, so he most likely has zero legitimate claim to it, and perhaps isn’t even in possession of a great rune.
It should also be mentioned that the trailer kind of implies that the mother who “Sanctions” us most likely is the female voice who brings us to the lands of shadow and will guide us through it as the role of “maiden” that Melina plays in the main game. I find the idea that this person is Marika to be incredibly unlikely. It’s probably a whole new female character who’s name starts with M, as much of a logical leap that might sound without the context of everything else I’ve said. Maybe Melina is related to Messmer, or even siblings and the mother who is mentioned by Messmer is Melina’s as well, and this figure is this “gloam eyed queen” that has been mentioned, if Messmer’s right eye is indeed sealed just like Melina’s
The Rune of Death is also called Destined Death because having it in the Elden Ring means that everything is destined to perish as a specific point in time, never earlier not later. Marika sealed it in Malekith to prevent the destined death she foresaw of Godwyn. However despite sealing it, Godwyn still died as destined via Ranni’s scheme. Hence she got so pissed by this that she shatters the Elden Ring.
Having to lose your body to enter this new land makes so much sense with the new power system we have had hinted at. The tarnished derives their power from the Golden Runes thanks to Melina! If you have to cast away "everything golden" to enter, the Tarnished would lose their progress. So smart if that's the case.