Tesla Will Give You A Worse Charging Battery If You Don’t Qualify For The EV Tax Credit
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- Опубликовано: 25 июн 2024
- Episode 396: Join Francie as she dives into news about Tesla manufacturing EVs in the US - some that are and some that are not eligible for the federal EV tax credit. She breaks down the battery differences, the tax credit requirements, eligible Tesla models, and more.
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So what makes the LG batteries inferior? How much worse is the charging curve, etc than Panasonic? Data please!
what we need to do is normalize getting all EV brands to make the charging curve public information, for putting on the vehicle's sale car. in the very least providing average minutes for charging ranges
If you don't qualify for the tax credit, you should be looking at brands like Hyundai/Kia who are giving $7500+ in flat incentives to match the tax credit. I'm sure Tesla has a contract with LG to purchase a certain number of batteries and they are trying to meet that, but they should have known that sales would tank on vehicles that lose the tax credit. Model 3 sales were down 60%+, they had to switch batteries to get the credit back. It was poor market predicting on Tesla's part back in 2023 when they were planning these changes.
What batteries does Hyundai/ Kia use?
@@56ctconger They appear to use various brands like Tesla. I’ve seen reports they use SK, LG, and CATL batteries. Supply constraints probably forces them to use multiple suppliers, and it’s good not to put all your eggs in one basket anyway.
@@Weezedog Thanks, the LG are the same batteries that traditionally come with the 3 LR. My son has those batteries in his 3 and they have been great.
The fact they offer the rebate qualified US made batteries is a good thing for those that qualify for the rebate. So I view it differently-they are offering those customers an extra discount. I have no idea how many qualify for the rebate but if you don’t pay enough tax to qualify you probably should not be buying a car in this price range.
Why is HK offering a $7500 rebate? Last time I looked at a HK they wanted a lot more than MSRP!
BTW it is hard to tell that Tesla actually has any marketing! How often do you see an ad anywhere for them?
I made an informed choice to buy a car with LFP cells, in this case MG4. I agree that cells and charging performance should be transparent, where possible.
I don’t find it ethical unless the people getting the lesser batteries get a discounted price to compensate. The same car should have the same capabilities regardless of buyer unless they are clearly noting this battery difference during the buying process for those not getting the credit. Some component I can understand varying but the main battery is a critical component to an EV.
For some reason it’s not letting me edit, but I think I got my answers. You can avoid the issue simply by selecting tax credit eligible with the toggle on Tesla’s site, and purchase it that way even if you aren’t actually eligible. That makes me feel better but I still think the lesser battery should be priced less.
@@kubi0461 You are better off learning about batteries if you watch videos by the Limiting Factor. This video provides no value to the understanding of the pros and cons of each battery. Performance is subjective and depends on individual needs, if you get what you need, why should the battery matter? you will never have to touch them.
I find it annoying thatTesla charges the same price for inferior batteries. I don’t mind that they have two types but I think they should give the customers a price break on the lesser quality battery.
You do realize a lot of companies do that. Apple, Samsung and all high volume manufacturers have the same issue. Apple will software limit performance to make them perform the same and Samsung, didn't back in the day.
@@herbfst As I said, it is not the different levels of service they offer, but the fact that they are charging for the same price whether you are getting the best battery or a less capable one. That seems dishonest.
@@kencotton4645 no the consumer pays more because they don’t get the tax credit and gets a worse battery
I specifically only wanted the LFP battery because I believe it's the better battery. I was willing to pay more for what I know is a better quality battery.
We do not have enough data to claim the LG battery is inferior to the Panasonic battery. We know it has a different charging curve. That is it.
For people who charge at home, there is no practical difference. The difference in battery type is only applicable for fast charging.
Tesla does need to add a charging metric pf some type to the vehicle description. A 10 minute difference in fast charging is a big deal if you are an Uber driver or EV racer, but not a big difference if you fast charge 12 times a year.
I think in the long run, the base Model 3 battery would be better. You can charge it to 100 percent and get the 272 mile range. For the long range cars with the non-LFP batteries, the range prediction of 340 miles is what it would be at 100 percent. However, people usually charge these batteries to 80 percent and thus, get 20 percent less range. That would mean that the 341 mile range quoted is more like 270 miles or so...just the same as the Model 3. So, if you don't mind not getting the tax break, $39,000 isn't bad.
Do you know for a fact that the Panasonic batteries cost more than the LG? It very well could be the other way around, especially after the shipping expense to import the LG cells. I think the reason that Tesla is doing this is because Panasonic has refused to ramp up production of the 2170 cells fast enough, so there just aren't enough of them to put in all of the Model 3/Y vehicles being sold in the US. So, they had to import cells that don't qualify to meet demand.
I believe they're using Panasonic batteries now because they're scaling back on Model Y production and can direct these battery packs to M3 line. MY production is down due to reduced demand and surplus inventory stock. So this is probably a short term strategy to boost M3 LR sales until other market conditions occur.
What...The...F! You end up paying more and get an inferior product?
This will create a mess on the used market as I don’t think there is a way to tell which battery you are getting
Yeah we are waaaaaaay to early in to the EV game and regulations and standards are not in place for any of this. It's the wild West right now. I want an EV but I don't want to be a beta tester for these companies nor do I want to be the doing the governments job for them. I'm starting to lean towards just converting one of my cars and knowing what I'm getting
So what happens when you lease? Does that mean you get the LG battery?
Oh great question - you can also get the tax incentives with some EV leases so that could factor in. www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/commercial-clean-vehicle-credit
From my experience as car manufacturer engineer LG batteries have relly good record of low degradation. So I wouldn't call lower gualiity batteries.
Great article I was very glad to get the Panasonic 2170 selves in my model Y. I got the software limited version and saved a couple thousand bucks.
Please look into the battery requirements first. That way you know if they qualify or not for the credit regardless whether the customer may or may not qualify. Material sourcing location % and manufacturing location % affect the eligibility.
So if you are rich get the performance or the rwd right?
Awesome update! Thanks. It’s probably fine to get LG but I want a choice, not be dictated based on the fact that I make a high income that I can’t have the best battery for me when I buy my car. If I’m taking an LG cell pack I want a price drop of some kind.
At the end of the day, it is not a car companies job to determine if the consumer is eligible for the tax rebate. That is in between the IRS and myself. I would imagine that by government regulations that car companies are required disclosure of what old stock is eligible for government credit.
Not a greed issue, they do not have access to enough stuff to do all tax credit qualifiers
So are the LG 2170s LFP or NMC? I didn't really get that. I'm also assuming all Panasonic 2170s are NMC is that correct?
LG is NCM. Panasonic NCA. CATL LFP.
A lot of friends, family and acquaintances are target fixated on the tax credit. So, many other variables to consider, especially if you don't lease.
Is this really true? Is there a way to force them to give you a Panasonic battery even if you aren't claiming the credit.
Choose the one in inventory that qualifies (and has the battery).
21C here in the UK
Cheers France
I noticed there were $7,500-tax-credit-qualified 2024 M3LR AWD inventory cars available for purchase on Tesla's official website literally within a day of it being declared qualifying for the full federal tax credit. So, one would be pissed off big time, if s/he (being personally $7,500-qualified) had taken delivery of either a 2024 M3 RWD or a 2024 M3LR AWD in cash or financing buy, just days before the fueleconomy-gov announcement. Tesla simply can't have them as inventory cars that quickly, unless Tesla had them in production way in advance of said U.S. federal government public announcement.
Volkswagen has just announced that it will invest up to $5 billion in Rivian. It creates a joint venture that will allow VW and Rivian to share technology
When you need gas for your (non EV) vehicle, and there is a gas station on the corner that charges $5 a gallon, and another on the other corner that charges $4 (or even $4.95) a gallon, which will you go to to fill up your tank? Most people don’t care if their tank holds 9 gallons, or 50 gallons, they’re gonna use the lower price gas.
Give us $7500 discount.
So a question, because I'm not aware. Are both batteries LFP?
No. The LG are LFP and the other is NCM. And LFP is better
@@MH-TeslaLG do not make LFP…both LG and Panasonic make NCM batteries..CATL and BYD makes LFP Batteries “ knowing is half the battle “ GI JOE😅
I think the non-credit qualifying batteries are LFP chemistry and have some advantages e.g. can charge to 100% always, and will last longer i.e. up to 1M miles vs 300+ so not as easy a choice as one first sees, chemistry is important to lots of stats
Even the LFP degrades from high SoC. big misconception to believe lfp is unaffected by high charging levels
Much of those LFP talking points are marketing. Look up Dr Jeff Dahn's presentation at ECS. Current LFP chemistries are not as resilient as we have been told. It is worth your time to check it out. Jeff suggests ways they can improve the LFP chemistry to address some of the short comings. A properly cared for NMC/NCA battery today will far outlast a LFP with current chemistries.
What's the disparity between the two chemistry for charging speed, energy density, longevity etc? Are we talking about 2%, 10% or 25%. Has Out of Spec tested the difference between the 2. Saying one charges faster is ok but not proving the difference makes your point carry less weight. Is this a tempest in a tea pot?
She is either "dumbing it down" to an unbearable level or she doesn't have the details. This video was a waste of my time.
Musk should call the Panasonic batteries Cappillary batteries. Not sure on spelling. That would add a Guardians of the Galaxy regency into his repertoire
Is it not quite simply that the tax credit requires an American made battery and that the LG batteries don't qualify. I'm sure they'll sell you an upgrade
I think this is smart, blame the government not Tesla.
If no tax credit, why not the best Chinese batteries available?
This was a great story, thanks for providing clarity. You mentioned how hot it is now. I would love to see detailed discussion on the impact of the various battery chemistry by high temps (above 32c) for 5-months a year that many of us experience every summer. Right now our 10-day forecasted highs are 32.2c - 45.5c. We always hear about low temp battery performance but no one talks about ever higher temps for longer periods of time. Like many in the Southwest, we rarely have temps below 10c but have 3 - 5 months of triple digits. I have Genesis Electrified G80 and Kia EV9 which I only charge at home to 50% in summer. I have no idea what battery chemistry is in my EVs or heat impact since no information is readily available. What Chemistry is best for high heat environments?
More people need to seek out Dr Jeff Dahn and his talks on the battery chemistries, testing, temperatures etc. There is a good presentation talking about the chemistry differences out there. Search for ECS Jeff Dahn on RUclips. The critical take away points are SOC, depth of discharge, and temperatures. I think you will find it quite illuminating.
If you do not get the taxes credit you get the better battery in Tesla case… Since all the LFP batteries made currently are from China
In over 12 minutes, you still don't discuss the actual difference between the Panasonic 2170 and the LG 2170, other than that the LG is produced outside of the USA and is cheaper for Tesla. When you discuss "performance", you gloss over details about power output, charging curve, gravometric density, volumetric density, cycle life, thermal runaway risk, and even as basic as the battery's chemistry. Not a single graph or numbers presented! Without a more technical discussion, it is hard to decide if you make a good point. Disappointing to say the least considering the sensationalist headline of the video.
Don't buy if you don't qualify.
I'd say the more important news of the day is the Rimac Verne.
Afternoon Francie
Whatever happened to those miracle batteries Elon touted on battery day years ago?
I believe they are being developed by the same team working on Toyota's solid state batteries. They all should be fired.
“Now, with respect to our own cell production, we do see a path to cost parity by the end of this year - a very difficult path to cost parity. Currently, our 4680s cost more than our suppliers’. Now, they cost more than the suppliers’ today, but they cost less than the suppliers’ a year ago. So, you know, there’s a bit of a feast-famine thing with battery cell supply. It’s kind of like for DRAM chips - you know, like, the DRAM industry goes from like oversupply to undersupply; the price of DRAM changes like crazy. It’s kind of like that for cells. Um, so, but we expect to achieve cost parity even with the much lower supplier cell price today by the end of the year.“
@@ericgregorithat sounds pretty bad. Essentially said it’s pretty unlikely to achieve cost parity within the next 12 months. And said nothing about the lagging performance of these batteries compared to the competition. By any standard these batteries have not lived up to what Elon touted on battery day years ago.
I know this is a podcast but the huge microphone should not be the centre of attention in the video. Why is it so high and large? Lower it so it's more out of view and point it up to you, not down.
LG has burned down a lot of cars for alot of manufacturers. I have zero interest in having an LG battery in my car. They are literally the worst major battery manufacturers. How are they even in business after all the recalls?
Pouch cells used by GM Ultium, Ford, and Hyundai/Kia cause fires. LG-made cylindrical cells have not had problems.
The Bolt uses pouch cells. I-Pace battery is made up of 432 pouch cells.
This all seems very confusing
Why Tesla don’t develop its own battery? 😂
ikr...? so much for the hype surrounding 4680 and Vertical Integration.
“Now, with respect to our own cell production, we do see a path to cost parity by the end of this year - a very difficult path to cost parity. Currently, our 4680s cost more than our suppliers’. Now, they cost more than the suppliers’ today, but they cost less than the suppliers’ a year ago. So, you know, there’s a bit of a feast-famine thing with battery cell supply. It’s kind of like for DRAM chips - you know, like, the DRAM industry goes from like oversupply to undersupply; the price of DRAM changes like crazy. It’s kind of like that for cells. Um, so, but we expect to achieve cost parity even with the much lower supplier cell price today by the end of the year.“
22C
They are optimizing at the cost of the customer.The question Tesla continues to raise is the one US Auto consumers have been facing for a decade now. How much is it worth to the customer to buy an American made car vs now a possible Chinese made car in the form of the Polestar or the soon to be in the market Mexican assembled BYD cars. The market about to shift dramatically but perhaps someone can ask Elon again his own question from years ago, "Have you seen their cars?"
I think it is wildly unfair to buyers. So if you don’t use the incentive, which Elon opposes, they punish you with a lesser vehicle for the same price? Pretty on par for Tesla these days.
It just comes to the surface. But when I ordered my M3, Tesla did not state that your battery is made by whoever. They just advertise the range, max speed, etc. So now they are more transparent, and people complain (guess people will always complain). When I got the M3, m choice was LFP, RWD, or AWD and NiCAD.
So, no I do not think you are getting second class. You are getting what they told you you wold get.
The “average” consumer has no idea what is under their hood. While the Panasonic has fantastic high discharge capabilities, it should always maintain the 80/20 charge ratio for longevity. The LG is Lithium Iron Phosphate which means it can be advertised as “safer”, can easily be charged to 100% daily, and potentially may last longer. I would not complicate things by discounting or asking for a premium because the consumer is generally ambivalent.
The LG batteries are NCM. They have an LPF in the works, but it's not in production yet.
@@DarrenDaoust Cool, thanks for the clarification. See, the average person has no idea... ;)
WOW!!! How terrible your description is! You make it sound like they switch batteries based on wether you qualify for tax credit or not. This isn't true. The LG battery is in the model 3 standard range model which doesn't qualify for the credit and it's known up front.
The batteries are based on the car/model, NOT the buyer and wether they qualify for the credit.
I really like ya all but this report makes it sound like Tesla is looking at orders and if they see an order without the tax credit, they give you the cheaper batteries.
Very simply. Buy the vehicle you want Francie. Just because you don't like Teslas a lot more people do. You have this twisted around. Tesla is just selling cars. Very simple. The consumer decides what they want. It does not get anymore complicated than that. Stick with your Vinfast and let Tesla customers make their choices as they wish.
The M3 standard range battery is in fact a LFP CATL battery. It is not a LG battery. The M3 LR is now Panasonic so that the M3 LR gets the tax credit which was a switch from LG. They are trying to pump the sales up with the inclusion of that tax break. Now with the sudden shift to a Panasonic battery in the LR the price with tax break brings the LR down to just $1000 more than the SR. They are reporting the news of the battery shell game because that is what is being reported is happening. Nothing said in this podcast was incorrect. Tesla is looking for ways to move the sales dials. The move on the M3 LR battery change will help, but the elephant in the room is many people are holding off buying a Y because everyone knows Juniper is coming. They need to start tricking in some of the upgrades now in the current Y if they want to lift sales. This news of battery issues certainly isn't helping.
While I'm not a Tesla fan (on several levels) I think you're being unfair with your characterization of Tesla's offerings.
It looks to me as if they are being reasonably transparent about which vehicles qualify. It's ultimately up to the individual to choose what they want. Am I missing something?
It has nothing to do with transparency of eligibility of tax credits. It’s that your car has a different battery depending on whether you claim eligibility. And that isn’t made clear to the consumer.
Tesla is really molesting the dog at this point... If they pulled the switcharoo on me I would be very PISSED OFF. Slow charging LG batteries that really perform poorly in the 10% challenge. It is a serious downgrade of the Model 3/Y for road tripping. Tesla sales are struggling partially because they are waiting for Juniper. They need to start trickling in the Juniper upgrades now like the double glazed glass and the better suspension without skipping a beat on the production line. Start releasing the updates to the current Y to keep consumers buying now instead of waiting for Juniper. Tesla is doing itself a dis-service. Sales are going to keep slowing because people know the Juniper update is coming. This battery mess up is only making it worse.
Please speak more slowly
Unless something has changed recently, Tesla refuses to tell you where your batteries are made. Do your own research before purchase. Buyer beware.
This arguments makes no sense. Its presented as if Tesla is doing something shady, but offering the customer options is not shady.
Is Tesla charging the same price for cars with LG or Panasonic batteries without telling the customer about the performance differences?
If yes, that is shady (although common practice).
What would the solution be, keeping in mind the average consumer does not care if fast charging takes 22 minutes or 30 minutes.
Why does Out of Spec focus so much on charging EV's on the road? Last time I used a Supercharger was on 9/18/2023. Until we have a 25K EV, the vast majority of EV's will be purchased by EV buyers that own a home and charge at home.
Probably because Kyle is never home, always on the road. You leaving your city ~ once a year is abnormal.
A lot of folks who own EVs do not have charging at their homes. Me included! Public infrastructure isn't only about road trips, it's also about those folks who rely on it for their daily EV driving needs. Hope that helps!
@@heyfrancie I know you are impacted and I wondered why you selected a CCS EV. I vote that Kyle pays you more or installs a charger at your apartment.
@@InternetDude We travel monthly, but we take the ICE BMW because the wife will not drive my Y. Some folks don't like change.
@@guyg2005 Ha thanks! We chose the VF8 because it's such a novel car with controversial reviews and the lease deal was crazy cheap. Gotta try em all. :-)
Tesla has always had a different viewpoint of what they offer to customers. They tend to offer what they see as the best value for money which may not align with what people want. This has been successful for them as their products tend to be class leading.
Lol nice try...
Stop yapping about "Fair", dont buy and they change to meet you, the consumers needs. If they don't, they font get your money. Tesla ha sneen selling millions if vehicles, they are doing something right.