Have you tried to measure the crankcase vacuum on your bike? What did you find and how did you measure it? There’s probably a better way to do it than the method I used. And do you have verifiable facts about whether or not this mysterious vacuum is really needed in the crankcase? Let me know!
You will never have crankcase vacuum because of ring blowby which is minimal at first but increases with age. In race conditions severe cylinder pressures increase crank pressure which can cause seal blowouts so vacuum pumps are used to get a lower crankcase pressure moreso than a vacuum. General stock applications are sufficed with venting as you did to achieve no or minimal case pressure
Crankcase vacuum only slightly improves ring seal for serious racing and performance needs for fractions of a second on ET! Passive venting of crankcase pressure is the gold standard! Great fix!!
I believe that nipple on top of the throttle body is a vacuum port (VOEs). Can't remember but that would be why its reading neg. I did both the NESS breather mod and the trans DIY mod to both my bikes. My 128 road glide and my 117 softail neither show any signs of problems. I Just put roughly 1000 miles on the softail this past week in the Mountains of NC. Temps in the 80s and average speeds on the freeway were 80mph. Revs down the mountain backroads were 2700 - 3000k. No problems. I think these mods are fine. Thanks for the research!!
Hey Timberjkd - my guts says the same - I’ve logged some good hard miles with both mods in place and I haven’t seen any issues. And yes that is a vacuum port on the throttle body. I knew there was strong vacuum going through and I just wanted to get a reading so it was clear that the intake vacuum was significant. Thanks for the input!!
Thanks so much for looking into this, I’ve been thinking about this a lot. I’ve installed the Trask vent and I’m really happy with it so far but have been debating the external breather vents, mainly because Kevin Baxter didn’t recommend doing both. This the response from Kevin when I put the question to him, “I'm not one to suggest parts unless they are needed to solve an issue. It would depend on how much oil is passing thru the breather. If your TB and air cleaner are relatively clean, I wouldnt spend the money. It doesn't hurt, but may not be necessary. All the best - KB” So at this point I’m eagerly waiting on your next video and I’m currently putting off the breather mod. I’m having a stage ll done next week and installing a SS oil pump and Cam Plate to prevent sumping, I’m eager to see just how much oil residue is in the breather, when I install the new one. Thanks again your videos are super helpful and informative. Keep up the great work.
Hey Todd - thanks for the info and feedback! My gut says it’s not a problem but I wanted to do some research and testing just to see what I could learn. I’ll definitely post info on how those bolts look with a couple of checks, but my expectation is that I’ll re-do the breather mod within a few weeks. Unless, of course, I get solid info that doing both is “bad”. Please let me know what you think after putting some miles on the new cam! I’m about to do a Stage III follow up video and the S&S cam plate is on the research list along with a few other dream-list items. If you want a channel sticker send me a DM on Telegram or Instagram with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
I also use the Trask vent. The Trask guys say to combine their vent with an external breather, just the opposite of what Kevin Baxter suggests. So for now, I'm running the Trask vent and regularly checking my air filter (Stage 1) for buildup. So far nothing, but headed to Sturgis in a month and that will be a good test. Even before the Trask CheckM8, I still wasn't seeing any problems with my air intake at 10K miles, but then again, I don't ride really hard.
Hey Jerry - thanks for the info! Let me know how it looks after Sturgis. I’m working on the follow-up video now. It should be up before Monday. If you want a channel sticker send me a DM on Telegram or Instagram with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
@@jerrybrown66 hey Jerry I was thinking of putting trash vent on my Harley-Davidson street glide 2019 trash told me I need update oil pump 2020 before installing it do you have update pump?
Another excellent video Ron! I love the attention to detail and your persistence.....a true professional. I recognize that Jacksonville on ramp....bore and raised there! I now live in Keystone Heights...we should ride and eat sometime.....Gene :)
Hey Gene - thanks for the kind words! And as to Keystone Heights - I camp at Mike Roess Gold Head Branch State Park about 8x every year! I’ve also ridden my bicycle through that area many times as well. One of these days we should definitely ride and eat. If you want a channel sticker send me a DM on Telegram or Instagram with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
First , anyone not knowing the throttle body and/or intake and carb is supposed to have vacume , knows little about a engine . In the 50s - 60s engines had a open tube connected to the engine block usually down by the oil pan at the rear of the engine , that allowed excess pressure inside the engine to escape . In the 70s their was a PCV valve , a spring loaded leaky check valve , it hooked into intake vacume and into one or the other valve covers , on the opposite valve cover a hose went to the air cleaner and hooker to a small filter inside the air cleaner housing , this pulled the regular pistons working up and down and excess blow by pressures inside the engine directly into the intake manifold , no vacume was pulled on the inside of the engine , it was free flowing - air down threw 1 head and up out of the other head . Using a PVC valve requires a fuel mixture adjustment . Then you have the map sensor (in the intake and/or throttle body) completely coated with oil from the head breathers on a harley , and some completely gobbed out with oil residue , you think that sensor is working correctly ? WRONG ! What do you clean it with , some sensors after cleaning no longer work or work correctly after cleaning . The engine block has the most pressure , the heads get pressure up threw the push rod tubes and oil return holes down threw the jugs from the heads , after the pressure happens in the engine block , could excess piston ring blow by cause the oil return from the heads to slow down or stop and oil gather in the heads to the point oil is running down threw the push rod tubes ? So where should the focus be on reducing pressure inside the engine ......................................How do I know all this ...........First , Im about old as dirt , second , I was cleaning tandem dump truck parts at about 12 , third , if you pull all the electronic`s off these engines , it may look a little different and made a little different , but , its the same thing as years ago ...............
I was watching a DK customs vid about head breathers and they said there’s a one way check valve in the heads behind the breather bolts. That might be the reason you’re getting vacuum from that one hose barb and not from the breathers you put in the Ness intake
Hi Try a water monometer. I can't see the blowby tubes creating a vacuum. There is a fix for this . Vent into a catch can and take the outlet from the catch can back to the air filter. The catch can drain back below the oil fill into the bace. Install a check valve on this line. I can provide pictures from my street glide. HD should provide a fix for this.
Hey Norm - that’s a very interesting solution! Thanks for sharing it. If you can send pics that would be appreciated. And the water manometer is a good idea too.
If the plastic bag continues to inflate, and stay that way, there can not be a vacuum in the crankcase. They would cancel eachother out. I have bought a 2022 model and if Harley have not added a vent I will, but without a check valve. On another note, I remember as an apprentice mechanic (cars), we were taught that compression and combustion pressure forces the rings out to seal against the bore. I personally can't see how a vacuum would effect rings considering the opposing forces. I'm not alway correct either, just my opinion based on my training. Lastly, oil misting into the air intake is very common, even in diesel engines that do not create a vacuum. In those engines it is purely blow by pressure causing it, requiring the use of catch cans. Thumbs up for the breather vent in the cover.
Hey Tim - thanks for the input! I agree that if there was (enough) vacuum in the crankcase it would offset that pressure, which is definitely the goal. After trying a few different approaches, the transmission top cover vent is my favorite as well.
First, I installed external head bolt breathers. Next, I installed the Feuling vented dipstick. Finally, I installed the Trask vented transmission cover. My initial assumption was that I couldn’t do any harm running all three venting systems simultaneously. But your latest video is causing me to question that assumption. Only the Trask transmission cover seems to have a working one way valve. I can’t imagine that I have any crankcase vacuum at all. Excess crankcase pressure should be able to escape. But idk if I should spend any time adding a couple of my own DIY one way check valves to try to develop vacuum in the crankcase.
Hey Brian - I’m still not convinced there’s an issue. If I had seen vacuum at all I might feel differently. @Norm Tut suggested a water manometer, which may be more sensitive. I’ll probably give that a try. But the only reason I’ve reverted the breather mod at this point is to check for vacuum for learning, and now is the perfect time to check for how much effect the crankcase vent has by itself since the other mod is disabled right now. Still on the hunt for solid facts from an authoritative contact.
@@RonsWorkshop In all honesty Ron, I’m not sure you’re ever going to find details that you’re looking for. I have watched so many videos my head spins on a daily basis I have talked and talked till I’m blue in the face to every person that I can think of and I doubt seriously if you’ll ever get a straight answer. The one thing I do know and feel confident about is if we go back to a date and time in which the Harleys were simply vented to atmosphere that was a factory norm. I think if anybody’s got this right on the money I’m gonna say that the Trask top cover is really the only way to go and I am thinking the only real reason that they put a check valve in it is to make it look more complicated (worth the money) …. That being said I called them guys at Trask directly and ask them all about it and that’s why I ended up doing the job myself on my own transmission cover was simply because they couldn’t tell me that my DIY job was any less effective and that’s coming straight from the horses mouth.
Hey Jeffrey - I'm pretty sure you're right! And the point about the check valve is not too far-fetched. As time passes I am more and more comfortable with venting to atmospheric (with a pod filter or something), knowing that the main thing is alleviating that pressure.
@@RonsWorkshop I do know that simply venting the crank case whether it be from using the V-1, fueling, Trask top cover to vent the case has eliminated the oil in the intake 99% … my goal was to accomplish that and possibly help with the 1/2 qt. Oil consumption in between changes (5000 mile oil change interval w/full synth oil mobile one 20/50)…. But I’ll take what I can get at this point.🙂
Hey Jp - I’m working on the follow-up video now. I’ve gotten good info to address the unanswered questions and I’m hoping the video finished and posted before next Monday. Good stuff! If you want a channel sticker send me a DM on Telegram or Instagram with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
Those vacuum gauges you are using are not sensitive. I could not use them on checking for over pumped lifters causing the valves to bounce. I you get a really sensitive low psi gauge then you can see the psi pulses. If you do you will see what you see in the bag.
Interesting subject matter. Been considering running both Crankcase Pressure Venting and External Breather System (EBS). I have a Fueling Billet Vented Oil Dip stick on my 2020 SGS (114-to-117 Stage-4 11:1 CR, SE Extreme Ventilator AC) and have just installed the Trask M8 Checkvent (transmission cover vented) on my 2021 CVO SG (10.2:1 CR, completely stock except for addition of the HD Fan for the oil cooler & aforementioned Trask piece). Both bikes are running HD Tuners (for warranty and compliance purposes...both EPA and C.A.R.B. for here in Ca.). Been researching for a few months now if I need to (or want to) also add External Breather Systems for the Top End. I haven't determined if I need Top End EBS yet. Air filters are clean, not really seeing any oily residue there, but of course the issue of taking in warm/hot "oily?" air and re-introducing back into the engine is my concern. Dyno Testing (on an actual Dyno) and with very good instrumentation (and where instruments are connected) obviously would be the better way to go, to measure and find out?
Hey Tom - thanks for sharing the details about your bikes! Be sure to watch the follow-up video to this one where I cover some very important points and clarify a few things. I’ll put a link below 👇. Where I’ve ended up is using my transmission top cover vent with the OEM breather bolts. I’ll include a link to that follow-up as well. I still plan to try one more solution that uses a catch can with vacuum applied, and ties in both the crankcase vent and external breather mod - that could indeed be the best of all scenarios and at least one viewer is using that solution with good results so far. As to the oil and hot air going back into the intake - I don’t think the air temperature is all that high and depending on the bike the amount of oil could be minimal too, but each bike is different based on a myriad of variables. Some will blow more oil than others. I also suggest that you do the sumping check by removing your crank sensor (another link below). If you don’t have sumping issues these things are not so urgent. If you do have a sumping problem, or you’re borderline, it’s a different story. But at the end of the day, positive crankcase pressure is detrimental and that’s what I’m most interested in alleviating with these solutions. And I agree - true dyno numbers are desirable - but that’s a scenario that may be hard to capture for accurate comparison. Engine temp, air temp, airflow, etc. Follow-up video about crankcase pressure: ruclips.net/video/BaG1VdOFe48/видео.html Check-up video about on my venting solution: ruclips.net/video/jOATltGSkgU/видео.html Pull the crank sensor to check for sumping: ruclips.net/video/F2N7kwCspQE/видео.html
Based on how I just viewed my personal bikes intake taken apart the m8 does NOT have a positive crank case vent system. It only has a passive. In order for it to be positive the breather hoses from the heads should need to be connected to the intake BEHIND the throttle body not in front. There is zero vacuum in front of the tb at least not a measureable amount due to the columns of air in front of it the tb restricts the flow of air reducing the available amount after increasing the vacuum. This is how cats work and internal combustion engines are internal combustion engines. And I speak from the fact I’m a master tech in automotive
Hey Freedom Fighter - thanks for the feedback! Follow-up video coming soon. I’ve finally gotten more facts about all of this. If you want a channel sticker send me a DM on Telegram or Instagram with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
doc Harley doesn't recommend venting into the crankcase .......just sayin but i have not done the transmission mod yet. Bike runs great 2018 Heritage 114
There is essentially NO vacuum in the air cleaner area because it would be vented in before the throttle plate. Unless you have a badly plugged air filter there is less than one inch of vacuum difference between outside air and air inside the air cleaner.
Watching these videos, it concerns me that Harley has potential issues with solving an issue. When I mentioned the idea of venting the crankcase to the salesman at the dealership because I watched a bunch of videos that address a "sumping problem" with the M8 motors, AND asked if I installed a vent on the transmission cover would it void the warranty, you could see the hair on his neck go up as he mumbled something, and then said "probably". It would seem that the only reason to add a catch can system to the head bolts is to collect any oil and or water vapor that might be expelled due to excess crank case pressure. But if you eliminate the pressure, then would you catch anything in the can if there is no pressure pushing anything out thru the vented bolts? If there is a need for the vacuum, but the issue of misting oil or water vapor is removed, then the vacuum is just going to pull air from the crank (or try to) that is just neutral or still heated air since the pressure in the crank has been eliminated by the crank case vent that is either installed at the dipstick or the transmission cover (either method creating the same condition of venting pressure). From what I can interpret from these videos, putting a catch can breather on the intake resolves one issue and creates another. Venting the crank case solves both issues. It would also seem that the hot air argument around the intake air would be negligible due to the size of the passages in the vented bolts when there is a huge air filter allowing a ton of cold air to be taken into the throttle body. It kind of reminds me of the fart in a hurricane comparison. Is anyone going to notice the small volume of air that might be pulled from the head into the intake when all excess pressure from the crank case is removed? When I talked to the dealer about this, he basically indicated that the world if full of opinions and that Harley has designed the machine to work just as it is...
Hey Manonymous108 - good discussion. At this point I’m most comfortable with a crankcase vent to deal with the obvious positive pressure while retaining the breather bolt setup to allow for vacuum when possible. I do plan to try out the catch can with vacuum, just to see how it works. I’m sure there is a lot of excess hype around these issues, but there is no doubt that sumping is terrible for the motor, and this issue of positive crankcase pressure is definitely a contributor and one that can easily be remedied. And there are definitely sumping issues with the M8 (and many other) motors. The fact that the 2020 oil pump gives 44% more scavenging than the first generation pump is a good indicator of that.
@@RonsWorkshop Doing more research I have seen other alternatives to relieving the sumping issue, and I noticed a note in another video you did, from Kevin Baxter (Baxter's Garage?) giving you a thumbs up for that other video. Interestingly Baxter noted that changing the cam plate cover and the oil pump could solve over 75% (?) of the sumping issues on a M8 because of tolerance buildup when mating two parts together. I'm familiar with this kind of thing having worked as a tooling inspector at Boeing. Over the length of a 747 (before laser optics) a plane was put together and it often wasn't straight nor did it fly in a straight line. They would adjust the controls to make the plane feel like it was going straight even if it was pointing off in a slight degree of angle because of the tolerance buildup in mating parts. I used to hear stories of pounding the link pins that hold the engine to the wing with a sledgehammer leaving shavings on the ground during install, but all this is a different story and not important. I was curious if you had any communication with Baxter on these subjects of venting. Madmonkey did a video where he demonstrated no vacuum at the oil dipstick and barely a pound of measurable pressure at the vented bolts at the head which people are venting to a filter or catch can. Going back to the fart in the wind comparison having all that air available thru a large air filter it would appear that IF there is any oil visible around the filter assy, that there is not enough vacuum thru the throttle body to pull the oil into the intake, which is why there is oil pooling at the air filter. If there was the vacuum to pull that oil, it wouldn't collect around the bottom of the air filter, which again makes me suspect the reality of any appreciable vacuum OR vacuum loss when adding a venting/catch can system. Then back to the crank case.. Another video shows a person having installed the A-1 vented oil filler cap with oil all over the motor because it pushed a bunch out the breather element that was hanging in back of the air cleaner. That problem seems to be allegedly attributed to the necessity to run the crank case at a half quart low in order to prevent the oil from coming out of the vent. This seems ridiculous when you look at another product like the Fueling dipstick which offers two options such as a vented bolt on top of the dipstick OR having a tube and filter such as the A-1. The more videos on You Tube that I watch the more I get the idea that these videos are mostly to sell products but do NOT tell a complete story. I have yet to see any tech videos like Doc Harley or Harley techs or even Kevin Baxter address these with any clarity and completeness. Videos like yours address these issues with people trying things and then reporting whether they have benefits or side effects but without giving any real "to the point" causes or complete explanations by techs that address the cause with a standard fix. I'm not in any way deprecating your video efforts to address these at all, and I appreciate your efforts, but they are not definitively proving cause and effect or absolute solutions. Because there are so many opinions there can't seem to be any definitive answers to the questions that come up with suggesting options. The more I dive into this the less confident I am when seeking a final solution to a problem I may never have if I ride my bike under 3000 rpm's for the life of the bike according to information that implies sumping is a non-issue if you never go over 3k rpm's... The baxter video that suggested the tolerance buildup and solution to buy better parts than Harley makes is disheartening in thinking I just spent $30k on a bike that has inferior parts by a company that makes those inferior parts to sell you more expensive parts to solve an issue they create in planned obsolescence AND prevents you from going anywhere else under threat of losing your warranty. Sorry, I don't mean to rant.. But I was wondering if Baxter gave you any insight into this vacuum thing at the crankcase or head bolts that is a bit more solid than these maybe yes and maybe not an issue renderings that I have come to a dead end with.
Hey Manonymous108 - yes, I have had several conversations with Kevin about this issue of crankcase pressure, vacuum, and sumping. I won’t put words in his mouth, but he confirmed the point about the vacuum source for the crankcase coming from the breather bolts by way of the throttle body. In his live Q&A video from March of this year (March 21 maybe?) he covers lots of questions about all of this, so track that one down if you’re up for more info on the topic. There is vacuum generated - but of course it varies with engine speed / throttle position. I’ll gather more info on this when I tackle the vacuum-tapped catch can version of the venting solution. I also dislike the idea of running 1/2 quart less (or however much less) oil to keep a vented dipstick happy. My own vented dipstick project proved that cornering and acceleration will push the oil right out the dipstick vent, which is what led me to venting the transmission too cover. Good discussion - thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter!
Just a thought but when you connected your gage to the crankcase vent on the trans cover did you put the check valve in line or leave it out? My understanding (and i may be wrong) is that without the check valve vacuum will not build in the crankcase as the air is just flowing in from the vent hose when the pistons are going up (instead of being blocked off due to the check valve thus creating the vacuum in the case). When the pistons move down air flows out of the check valve into atmosphere thus allowing the crankcase to not over pressure and start sumping.
Hey Darren - good point. I attached the gauge directly to the barb on the top cover, so the gauge was actually serving as the check valve to allow it to pull a vacuum if there was one.
The blowby gasses enter the crankcase as seen by the bag filling In the heads the umbrella valves separate the case from the intake manifold which is under varying amounts of vacuum depending on throttle position when conditions are correct the umbrella valves open and the blow by gasses move to the area of lowest pressure ie your intake then when conditions are correct the umbrella valves close again keeping gasses in the case and this process repeats I would doubt the cases are ever under any amount of vacuum it seems to me the system works on the pressure difference within the system a case breather is undoubtedly the way to go for me and let the heads breath external if any gasses ever reach there
Hey Jack - that’s just a basic bulkhead fitting, but I have a check valve in the line above it. Check out the prior video for links and all the details: ruclips.net/video/U6gOhbRQrwE/видео.html Let me know if you need more info.
@@RonsWorkshop thanks, brother! I appreciate the info. I too was wondering about the same thing.... run one? if so, which one? run both? is that even necessary? Anyway, I look fwd to seeing what you come up with. I'm on a '20 fxbb with the 107. I've got stage one on it. Definitely interested in engine longevity.
Hey Street Glide - the theory is that the ports in the intake introduce vacuum…but I haven’t been able to measure any. So for me, after all my testing and experiments, the main concern is venting the pressure.
Hey Grounded - the crankcase vent I used does a great job of venting the pressure and reducing the crud that gets to the intake. You can see the check-up video here: ruclips.net/video/jOATltGSkgU/видео.html If you add the external breather mod you completely eliminate it, but you also remove the potential source of vacuum. It’s a trade off for sure, but venting the pressure is the big win.
vacuum in a crank case...never heard of such a thing unless you've got one heck of an oil pump but by the time you got one that strong you wouldn't need the pcv(s) which Harleys have 2...1 in either rocker box and they vent directly into the air cleaner when not modified elsewhere...all engines will have positive crank case pressure therefore they all have a pcv valve of some sort otherwise you would blow the case seals...and while yes you get some blow by its not really anything meaningful because what you're really seeing is well think of it as an air compressor where it will compressor air and oil vapor on one side of the piston while on the other side its doing its normal ic engine stuff...I say that because the pistons compress the air and oil vapor every time they come down instead of every other time like they do going up on your compression stroke
Hey Nathan - one thing to consider is the standard PCV valves that engines have. If there was never the possibility or benefit of vacuum, they wouldn’t have the one-way valve / check ball that only allows pressure to escape but allows vacuum. It would just be an open vent to allow the pressure to escape.
to messure vacum in the crank case you have to messure vacum in the intake... thats the source of vacum in the crank case if there is no outsource of vacum your crankcase will be under pressure and the more blowby the more pressure your crank case is suppossed to have vacum and thats why breather tube is connected to intake
Hey Rokita - yes, but that vacuum goes to the crankcase when the stock head/intake venting is in place...but in my case it seems that the pressure is higher than the vacuum, or at least that with the gauge I was using it was not sensitive enough to capture any of the vacuum pulses. I've gor more info on this topic and I am working on the follow-up video.
There can't be any vacuum without a vacuum source.. I have no idea where that source would come from so it's reasonable to say that a Harley crankcase is never under vacuum.
Hey Dale - that sounds like a nice simple approach. I haven’t done anything with that breather tube. Is it a hard line or rubber? How’s it working for you?
@@RonsWorkshop I used hard line kit from J&P Cycle at the jug but instead of leaving it vent behind air breather I T'd behind oem breather and then ran soft tubing back by swing arm. When I got my bike I had to rebuild carb and noticed a good bit of oil in carb... sad part is this isn't just a Harley Davidson.... all cars, trucks have this issue. I'd like the EPA explain to me why burning motor oil is cleaner off environment than just gasoline or diesel.
Thanks for sharing your solution! I’ll have to check out that hard line kit. I hear you about the oil. I’m finishing up the follow-up video for this now and it should be up by tomorrow.
Hey Chris - yes, that's an option. I tried it in this video (ruclips.net/video/5h6Apcj7DDg/видео.html), but I'm not sure if it's too much vacuum or not.
Thank you so much for your videos!! I have 19 RGS and I just bought the Arlen Ness monster sucker the same exact setup you have on my bike before I just went on a 2400 mile round trip. I noticed an excessive amount of oil all over my saddlebags all over my motor and I was freaking out wondering where this was coming from. As you know it was leaking out of the Arlen Ness monster sucker intake. So I am back now from my trip and did not know how I'm going to tackle this problem and I came across your video and although it is a good solution to block off the breeder bolts in the head I really did not want to drill and tap into a brand new expensive Arlen Ness intake. I have also been looking at the same transmission plate that you put on as a venting solution. Do you think it will solve my problem with the Arlen Ness big sucker blowing oil all over my bike by just using the transmission cover?
Hey Dustin - the transmission too cover vent will definitely be a big help. I’ll be monitoring the bolts and intake for oil over the next few weeks to see how it goes. I don’t think you can go wrong with some sort of crankcase vent mod - and honestly I expect to put the breather mod back too after doing some more testing and monitoring. But I totally get not wanting to mod the intake. Still on the hunt for hard facts on this. Thanks for the feedback, and let me know what you decide to do and how it goes. If you want a channel sticker send me a DM on Telegram or Instagram with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
@@RonsWorkshop thank you for your response!.. I'm very interested in seeing how this mod improved your breather bolts.. I'm just aiming to not have oil all over my bike when going highway speeds and if I can get away with just doing the trans thing I will.. I want to do one or the other just don't know which way to go yet.. Your videos help alot!.. Thank you sir!
Ron, i've been having this issue since adding ss 124 kit. Oil pouring out of breather. Wut type fitting did u use n trans cover and will it hurt if I dont use check valve. If so wut exact name is that chk valve n where do I get. Been looking at all auto parts. Cant find
Hey Lester - definitely use the check valve. Today I’ll be posting my follow-up to this video where I clarify the open questions. I see that you found the other video with the parts list: ruclips.net/video/U6gOhbRQrwE/видео.html I’ll respond to your other question over there.
The easiest way to tell that crankcase vacuum is a myth. If there was ever any measurable crankcase vacuum you would never have to worry about pressure. The excess pressure you’re venting would just negate any vacuum. You’d have a net of pressure still so vacuum would never happen. Vacuum and pressure are opposite sides of the same atmospheric pressure. I don’t know if that explains it. It would need to be a perfect see saw and in stock form the one side of the see saw is always getting higher until it would no longer move.
Hey Busted knucks - I do see what you’re saying. Although I now understand why a vacuum is a good thing. It’s just sort of puzzling that I couldn’t detect any vacuum at all. Maybe it would be more pronounced at higher rpm. I’ll be posting a follow-up video within a week or so.
Hello Ron, my bike has a revtech 100 engine... my question do you have information or suggestion of which option of ventilation for this type of engine fits it best.. thanks in advance...
Hey R R - unfortunately I don’t have any firsthand experience with those. I think the Revtech motors replace the 84-99 Evo, so you might try researching Evo crankcase venting. I know they have some sort of head breathers, but I dont know much more. Let me know what you find!
Not sure - I don’t have telemetry to get the temps so I have no idea. I’ve seen no problems with the check valve after quite a few months of riding in hot Florida.
I just bought a 2022 RGL 114 ci. Stage 2 . I have done the intake bypass with a pod filter. Should I also vent the top transmission cover. I'm not sure if vented trans cover was a let's say 2017-2019 issue or if I should go ahead and do it on my 2022 . Thanks
Hey Joe -you could just do a simple check to see if you’ve got positive crankcase pressure (and almost certainly we all do). Just remove the oil filler cap, fire up the bike, and either stretch a balloon or tape a plastic bag around the filler hole - if it inflates you know you’ve got pressure that could be relieved. Let me know what you find!
Hey Taylor - it's definitely not required. You can also check out the recent video where I revisited this and cover the top questions: ruclips.net/video/JPI3AeMfYeg/видео.html
@Ron's Workshop hey thanks for the quick reply, I recently bought the nicecnc cover off of Amazon, only to find out it's only venting the transmition, which the stock already did. So, it looks like I'll be drilling and taping a fitting and filter in
I actually added a crankcase vent through the dipstick. Reason; I was getting oil in intake and at 60 miles my dipstick blew out, or open ruining the o-ring. My thought was to just vent the dipstick. No problems with it at all now (18000 miles) except I do get oil mist out of that vent. Quit a lot it seems. Any suggestions??
Hey Ric - did you use any sort of pod filter or does it just vent to the atmosphere? And where did you place the outlet of the vent? And what level do you keep your oil at?
@@RonsWorkshop yes there is a pod filter. I actually ran it up just above the intake. I was running a catch can, but I think this looks much better. My oil I run 1/2-3/4 quart low constant. Thank you
@@riceddy7420 I'm just not sure. I had similar problems with my DIY vented dipstick, but I got actual out discharge and not just mist. I never did end up with a solution that worked. I've seen other comments from viewers with similar issues but I'm not sure what causes it - I do know the Fueling dipstick has an oil separator, so maybe you just need something like that. The catch can serves that purpose, but as you noted it's bulky. For my crankcase vent I was able to hide the catch can behind the right side cover. There are also so pretty small catch cans out there, so maybe something like that would help?
Hey Steven - If you check the video description on this video you’ll see a parts list: ruclips.net/video/U6gOhbRQrwE/видео.html Sometimes the check valves are out of stock. Let me know what you find.
Hey Jonathan - good question. Well, I did - there’s a little snippet of that in the video. I just didn’t include much of it because there was no difference.
I’m working on a project now where I’ll do that - but with the addition of a catch can, and it will vent the crankcase (with check valve retained) and also incorporate the external breather mod. Could be the best of both worlds.
I see you point but I believe you don't want that oxygen depleted air to circle back into the system on the first place through that barb. Also as RPM's goes up the vacuum through the barb will get weaker and none at WOT.
@@scoobiduu yeah I rethought that out. After it leaves the crankcase why feed it back into the intake? Just vent both the crankcase and breather bolts to atmosphere is what I’m going to do
Hey Roy - that’s a valid point about the hot gasses for sure. I finished the catch can project. I’m not sure what the gas temps are but no doubt they are warm, but perhaps it’s a small enough amount to avoid negative impact. I’m currently using a throttle body vacuum source that seems to be constant. That allows me the keep the crankcase under vacuum. You can check it out here: ruclips.net/video/5h6Apcj7DDg/видео.html
@@RonsWorkshop First and foremost I love your channel keep up the good work. Second I watched your video you linked, Thank-you for catching me up. Third I know there are other catch-can projects out there but this one is pretty good. It might need a patent. Now for the cons, I don't like the fact of the closed loop system. That air in the crankcase is coming from somewhere and my only guesstimate is that it is blow-by, which is oxygen deprived. Then feeding it back into the engine. Toyota done the exact same thing as this system you came up with for motorcycles and separate the oil mist from air. This is there we disagree. I think its better to let it vent to the atmosphere. Having some vacuum in the crankcase is good but at what degree. If there any negative side effects it maybe a horsepower or less and then gain that back by the vacated crankcase pressure. Hell that evens it out. You solved the oil mist so there shouldn't be and build-up of carbon anywhere. Overall PERFECT SYSTEM!!! in a perfect world of EPA compliance. I'll be watching you sonny!!!
I've had several conversations with Kevin and he was very generous in giving me input on these issues, and that was a big part of the follow-up video to this one. He's a great guy and wealth of information!
Have you tried to measure the crankcase vacuum on your bike? What did you find and how did you measure it? There’s probably a better way to do it than the method I used. And do you have verifiable facts about whether or not this mysterious vacuum is really needed in the crankcase? Let me know!
You will never have crankcase vacuum because of ring blowby which is minimal at first but increases with age. In race conditions severe cylinder pressures increase crank pressure which can cause seal blowouts so vacuum pumps are used to get a lower crankcase pressure moreso than a vacuum. General stock applications are sufficed with venting as you did to achieve no or minimal case pressure
Hey C Joy - thanks for contributing to the discussion!
Crankcase vacuum only slightly improves ring seal for serious racing and performance needs for fractions of a second on ET! Passive venting of crankcase pressure is the gold standard! Great fix!!
Hey C Joy - thanks for the contribution and the kind words!
I believe that nipple on top of the throttle body is a vacuum port (VOEs). Can't remember but that would be why its reading neg. I did both the NESS breather mod and the trans DIY mod to both my bikes. My 128 road glide and my 117 softail neither show any signs of problems. I Just put roughly 1000 miles on the softail this past week in the Mountains of NC. Temps in the 80s and average speeds on the freeway were 80mph. Revs down the mountain backroads were 2700 - 3000k. No problems. I think these mods are fine. Thanks for the research!!
Hey Timberjkd - my guts says the same - I’ve logged some good hard miles with both mods in place and I haven’t seen any issues. And yes that is a vacuum port on the throttle body. I knew there was strong vacuum going through and I just wanted to get a reading so it was clear that the intake vacuum was significant. Thanks for the input!!
Our personal "guinea pig" lol. great videos brother!
Thanks Michael! Taking one for team lol
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Thanks so much for looking into this, I’ve been thinking about this a lot. I’ve installed the Trask vent and I’m really happy with it so far but have been debating the external breather vents, mainly because Kevin Baxter didn’t recommend doing both. This the response from Kevin when I put the question to him, “I'm not one to suggest parts unless they are needed to solve an issue. It would depend on how much oil is passing thru the breather. If your TB and air cleaner are relatively clean, I wouldnt spend the money. It doesn't hurt, but may not be necessary. All the best - KB” So at this point I’m eagerly waiting on your next video and I’m currently putting off the breather mod. I’m having a stage ll done next week and installing a SS oil pump and Cam Plate to prevent sumping, I’m eager to see just how much oil residue is in the breather, when I install the new one.
Thanks again your videos are super helpful and informative. Keep up the great work.
Hey Todd - thanks for the info and feedback! My gut says it’s not a problem but I wanted to do some research and testing just to see what I could learn. I’ll definitely post info on how those bolts look with a couple of checks, but my expectation is that I’ll re-do the breather mod within a few weeks. Unless, of course, I get solid info that doing both is “bad”.
Please let me know what you think after putting some miles on the new cam! I’m about to do a Stage III follow up video and the S&S cam plate is on the research list along with a few other dream-list items.
If you want a channel sticker send me a DM on Telegram or Instagram with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
I also use the Trask vent. The Trask guys say to combine their vent with an external breather, just the opposite of what Kevin Baxter suggests. So for now, I'm running the Trask vent and regularly checking my air filter (Stage 1) for buildup. So far nothing, but headed to Sturgis in a month and that will be a good test. Even before the Trask CheckM8, I still wasn't seeing any problems with my air intake at 10K miles, but then again, I don't ride really hard.
Hey Jerry - thanks for the info! Let me know how it looks after Sturgis. I’m working on the follow-up video now. It should be up before Monday.
If you want a channel sticker send me a DM on Telegram or Instagram with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
Hey Jerry - I just posted the follow-up video: ruclips.net/video/BaG1VdOFe48/видео.html
@@jerrybrown66 hey Jerry I was thinking of putting trash vent on my Harley-Davidson street glide 2019 trash told me I need update oil pump 2020 before installing it do you have update pump?
Another excellent video Ron! I love the attention to detail and your persistence.....a true professional. I recognize that Jacksonville on ramp....bore and raised there! I now live in Keystone Heights...we should ride and eat sometime.....Gene :)
Hey Gene - thanks for the kind words! And as to Keystone Heights - I camp at Mike Roess Gold Head Branch State Park about 8x every year! I’ve also ridden my bicycle through that area many times as well. One of these days we should definitely ride and eat.
If you want a channel sticker send me a DM on Telegram or Instagram with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
Keep up the excellent work.
Thanks for the feedback! If you want a channel sticker send me a DM on Telegram or Instagram with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
First , anyone not knowing the throttle body and/or intake and carb is supposed to have vacume , knows little about a engine . In the 50s - 60s engines had a open tube connected to the engine block usually down by the oil pan at the rear of the engine , that allowed excess pressure inside the engine to escape . In the 70s their was a PCV valve , a spring loaded leaky check valve , it hooked into intake vacume and into one or the other valve covers , on the opposite valve cover a hose went to the air cleaner and hooker to a small filter inside the air cleaner housing , this pulled the regular pistons working up and down and excess blow by pressures inside the engine directly into the intake manifold , no vacume was pulled on the inside of the engine , it was free flowing - air down threw 1 head and up out of the other head . Using a PVC valve requires a fuel mixture adjustment . Then you have the map sensor (in the intake and/or throttle body) completely coated with oil from the head breathers on a harley , and some completely gobbed out with oil residue , you think that sensor is working correctly ? WRONG ! What do you clean it with , some sensors after cleaning no longer work or work correctly after cleaning . The engine block has the most pressure , the heads get pressure up threw the push rod tubes and oil return holes down threw the jugs from the heads , after the pressure happens in the engine block , could excess piston ring blow by cause the oil return from the heads to slow down or stop and oil gather in the heads to the point oil is running down threw the push rod tubes ? So where should the focus be on reducing pressure inside the engine ......................................How do I know all this ...........First , Im about old as dirt , second , I was cleaning tandem dump truck parts at about 12 , third , if you pull all the electronic`s off these engines , it may look a little different and made a little different , but , its the same thing as years ago ...............
I was watching a DK customs vid about head breathers and they said there’s a one way check valve in the heads behind the breather bolts. That might be the reason you’re getting vacuum from that one hose barb and not from the breathers you put in the Ness intake
Hey Herb - thanks for that info!
Hi
Try a water monometer.
I can't see the blowby tubes creating a vacuum. There is a fix for this . Vent into a catch can and take the outlet from the catch can back to the air filter.
The catch can drain back below the oil fill into the bace. Install a check valve on this line. I can provide pictures from my street glide.
HD should provide a fix for this.
Hey Norm - that’s a very interesting solution! Thanks for sharing it. If you can send pics that would be appreciated. And the water manometer is a good idea too.
@@RonsWorkshop Hi
If you supply a email I will send you some pictures. I can't seem to attach any pictures to this reply.
Cheers
Norm
Hey J Ecr - I like that solution! Nicely done.
And which catch can did you use?
I’ll check it out!
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If the plastic bag continues to inflate, and stay that way, there can not be a vacuum in the crankcase. They would cancel eachother out. I have bought a 2022 model and if Harley have not added a vent I will, but without a check valve.
On another note, I remember as an apprentice mechanic (cars), we were taught that compression and combustion pressure forces the rings out to seal against the bore. I personally can't see how a vacuum would effect rings considering the opposing forces. I'm not alway correct either, just my opinion based on my training.
Lastly, oil misting into the air intake is very common, even in diesel engines that do not create a vacuum. In those engines it is purely blow by pressure causing it, requiring the use of catch cans.
Thumbs up for the breather vent in the cover.
Hey Tim - thanks for the input! I agree that if there was (enough) vacuum in the crankcase it would offset that pressure, which is definitely the goal. After trying a few different approaches, the transmission top cover vent is my favorite as well.
@@RonsWorkshop and thank you for exploring all the options Ron. I've had a sportster for 5 years so the M8 is new to me. I like to be prepared 😄
First, I installed external head bolt breathers. Next, I installed the Feuling vented dipstick. Finally, I installed the Trask vented transmission cover. My initial assumption was that I couldn’t do any harm running all three venting systems simultaneously. But your latest video is causing me to question that assumption. Only the Trask transmission cover seems to have a working one way valve. I can’t imagine that I have any crankcase vacuum at all. Excess crankcase pressure should be able to escape. But idk if I should spend any time adding a couple of my own DIY one way check valves to try to develop vacuum in the crankcase.
Hey Brian - I’m still not convinced there’s an issue. If I had seen vacuum at all I might feel differently. @Norm Tut suggested a water manometer, which may be more sensitive. I’ll probably give that a try. But the only reason I’ve reverted the breather mod at this point is to check for vacuum for learning, and now is the perfect time to check for how much effect the crankcase vent has by itself since the other mod is disabled right now. Still on the hunt for solid facts from an authoritative contact.
@@RonsWorkshop In all honesty Ron, I’m not sure you’re ever going to find details that you’re looking for. I have watched so many videos my head spins on a daily basis I have talked and talked till I’m blue in the face to every person that I can think of and I doubt seriously if you’ll ever get a straight answer. The one thing I do know and feel confident about is if we go back to a date and time in which the Harleys were simply vented to atmosphere that was a factory norm. I think if anybody’s got this right on the money I’m gonna say that the Trask top cover is really the only way to go and I am thinking the only real reason that they put a check valve in it is to make it look more complicated (worth the money) …. That being said I called them guys at Trask directly and ask them all about it and that’s why I ended up doing the job myself on my own transmission cover was simply because they couldn’t tell me that my DIY job was any less effective and that’s coming straight from the horses mouth.
Hey Jeffrey - I'm pretty sure you're right! And the point about the check valve is not too far-fetched. As time passes I am more and more comfortable with venting to atmospheric (with a pod filter or something), knowing that the main thing is alleviating that pressure.
@@RonsWorkshop I do know that simply venting the crank case whether it be from using the V-1, fueling, Trask top cover to vent the case has eliminated the oil in the intake 99% … my goal was to accomplish that and possibly help with the 1/2 qt. Oil consumption in between changes (5000 mile oil change interval w/full synth oil mobile one 20/50)…. But I’ll take what I can get at this point.🙂
👍🏼👍🏼
Hey Ron! Can’t wait for your next video
Hey Jp - I’m working on the follow-up video now. I’ve gotten good info to address the unanswered questions and I’m hoping the video finished and posted before next Monday. Good stuff!
If you want a channel sticker send me a DM on Telegram or Instagram with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
Hey Jp - I just posted the follow-up video: ruclips.net/video/BaG1VdOFe48/видео.html
@@RonsWorkshop hey excellent video I left my like on it!! Just waiting to the final result hope coming soon
Thanks Jp! So far the crankcase vent plus OEM breather bolt combo is working well.
@@RonsWorkshop sound amazing, thank you for your help
Those vacuum gauges you are using are not sensitive. I could not use them on checking for over pumped lifters causing the valves to bounce. I you get a really sensitive low psi gauge then you can see the psi pulses. If you do you will see what you see in the bag.
Hey Jeff - that makes sense. Thanks for the input!
Interesting subject matter. Been considering running both Crankcase Pressure Venting and External Breather System (EBS). I have a Fueling Billet Vented Oil Dip stick on my 2020 SGS (114-to-117 Stage-4 11:1 CR, SE Extreme Ventilator AC) and have just installed the Trask M8 Checkvent (transmission cover vented) on my 2021 CVO SG (10.2:1 CR, completely stock except for addition of the HD Fan for the oil cooler & aforementioned Trask piece). Both bikes are running HD Tuners (for warranty and compliance purposes...both EPA and C.A.R.B. for here in Ca.). Been researching for a few months now if I need to (or want to) also add External Breather Systems for the Top End. I haven't determined if I need Top End EBS yet. Air filters are clean, not really seeing any oily residue there, but of course the issue of taking in warm/hot "oily?" air and re-introducing back into the engine is my concern. Dyno Testing (on an actual Dyno) and with very good instrumentation (and where instruments are connected) obviously would be the better way to go, to measure and find out?
Hey Tom - thanks for sharing the details about your bikes! Be sure to watch the follow-up video to this one where I cover some very important points and clarify a few things. I’ll put a link below 👇. Where I’ve ended up is using my transmission top cover vent with the OEM breather bolts. I’ll include a link to that follow-up as well. I still plan to try one more solution that uses a catch can with vacuum applied, and ties in both the crankcase vent and external breather mod - that could indeed be the best of all scenarios and at least one viewer is using that solution with good results so far. As to the oil and hot air going back into the intake - I don’t think the air temperature is all that high and depending on the bike the amount of oil could be minimal too, but each bike is different based on a myriad of variables. Some will blow more oil than others. I also suggest that you do the sumping check by removing your crank sensor (another link below). If you don’t have sumping issues these things are not so urgent. If you do have a sumping problem, or you’re borderline, it’s a different story. But at the end of the day, positive crankcase pressure is detrimental and that’s what I’m most interested in alleviating with these solutions. And I agree - true dyno numbers are desirable - but that’s a scenario that may be hard to capture for accurate comparison. Engine temp, air temp, airflow, etc.
Follow-up video about crankcase pressure:
ruclips.net/video/BaG1VdOFe48/видео.html
Check-up video about on my venting solution:
ruclips.net/video/jOATltGSkgU/видео.html
Pull the crank sensor to check for sumping:
ruclips.net/video/F2N7kwCspQE/видео.html
Based on how I just viewed my personal bikes intake taken apart the m8 does NOT have a positive crank case vent system. It only has a passive. In order for it to be positive the breather hoses from the heads should need to be connected to the intake BEHIND the throttle body not in front. There is zero vacuum in front of the tb at least not a measureable amount due to the columns of air in front of it the tb restricts the flow of air reducing the available amount after increasing the vacuum. This is how cats work and internal combustion engines are internal combustion engines. And I speak from the fact I’m a master tech in automotive
Hey Mike - thanks for sharing that info!
This was 👍 great
Hey Steven - thanks for the kind words! Be sure to check out the follow-up video for pertinent info as well: ruclips.net/video/BaG1VdOFe48/видео.html
Good job
Hey Freedom Fighter - thanks for the feedback! Follow-up video coming soon. I’ve finally gotten more facts about all of this.
If you want a channel sticker send me a DM on Telegram or Instagram with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
Hey Freedom Fighter - I just posted the follow-up video: ruclips.net/video/BaG1VdOFe48/видео.html
doc Harley doesn't recommend venting into the crankcase .......just sayin but i have not done the transmission mod yet. Bike runs great 2018 Heritage 114
Hey D R - shoot me a link to that video of you can. Thanks!
@@RonsWorkshop ruclips.net/video/LoVuOuhFvDs/видео.html
I just did the crankcase vent and ran my line from the breather bolts to that crankcase vent!
Nice! Let me know how you like it. I suspect you’ll feel a difference. I did!
@Ron's Workshop I will just changed oil and about to rip this weekend! I'm getting 475 cam kit soon too!!! Geeked about that one!
There is essentially NO vacuum in the air cleaner area because it would be vented in before the throttle plate. Unless you have a badly plugged air filter there is less than one inch of vacuum difference between outside air and air inside the air cleaner.
👍🏼
Watching these videos, it concerns me that Harley has potential issues with solving an issue. When I mentioned the idea of venting the crankcase to the salesman at the dealership because I watched a bunch of videos that address a "sumping problem" with the M8 motors, AND asked if I installed a vent on the transmission cover would it void the warranty, you could see the hair on his neck go up as he mumbled something, and then said "probably".
It would seem that the only reason to add a catch can system to the head bolts is to collect any oil and or water vapor that might be expelled due to excess crank case pressure. But if you eliminate the pressure, then would you catch anything in the can if there is no pressure pushing anything out thru the vented bolts?
If there is a need for the vacuum, but the issue of misting oil or water vapor is removed, then the vacuum is just going to pull air from the crank (or try to) that is just neutral or still heated air since the pressure in the crank has been eliminated by the crank case vent that is either installed at the dipstick or the transmission cover (either method creating the same condition of venting pressure).
From what I can interpret from these videos, putting a catch can breather on the intake resolves one issue and creates another. Venting the crank case solves both issues. It would also seem that the hot air argument around the intake air would be negligible due to the size of the passages in the vented bolts when there is a huge air filter allowing a ton of cold air to be taken into the throttle body. It kind of reminds me of the fart in a hurricane comparison. Is anyone going to notice the small volume of air that might be pulled from the head into the intake when all excess pressure from the crank case is removed?
When I talked to the dealer about this, he basically indicated that the world if full of opinions and that Harley has designed the machine to work just as it is...
Hey Manonymous108 - good discussion. At this point I’m most comfortable with a crankcase vent to deal with the obvious positive pressure while retaining the breather bolt setup to allow for vacuum when possible. I do plan to try out the catch can with vacuum, just to see how it works.
I’m sure there is a lot of excess hype around these issues, but there is no doubt that sumping is terrible for the motor, and this issue of positive crankcase pressure is definitely a contributor and one that can easily be remedied. And there are definitely sumping issues with the M8 (and many other) motors. The fact that the 2020 oil pump gives 44% more scavenging than the first generation pump is a good indicator of that.
@@RonsWorkshop Doing more research I have seen other alternatives to relieving the sumping issue, and I noticed a note in another video you did, from Kevin Baxter (Baxter's Garage?) giving you a thumbs up for that other video. Interestingly Baxter noted that changing the cam plate cover and the oil pump could solve over 75% (?) of the sumping issues on a M8 because of tolerance buildup when mating two parts together. I'm familiar with this kind of thing having worked as a tooling inspector at Boeing. Over the length of a 747 (before laser optics) a plane was put together and it often wasn't straight nor did it fly in a straight line. They would adjust the controls to make the plane feel like it was going straight even if it was pointing off in a slight degree of angle because of the tolerance buildup in mating parts. I used to hear stories of pounding the link pins that hold the engine to the wing with a sledgehammer leaving shavings on the ground during install, but all this is a different story and not important.
I was curious if you had any communication with Baxter on these subjects of venting. Madmonkey did a video where he demonstrated no vacuum at the oil dipstick and barely a pound of measurable pressure at the vented bolts at the head which people are venting to a filter or catch can.
Going back to the fart in the wind comparison having all that air available thru a large air filter it would appear that IF there is any oil visible around the filter assy, that there is not enough vacuum thru the throttle body to pull the oil into the intake, which is why there is oil pooling at the air filter. If there was the vacuum to pull that oil, it wouldn't collect around the bottom of the air filter, which again makes me suspect the reality of any appreciable vacuum OR vacuum loss when adding a venting/catch can system. Then back to the crank case.. Another video shows a person having installed the A-1 vented oil filler cap with oil all over the motor because it pushed a bunch out the breather element that was hanging in back of the air cleaner. That problem seems to be allegedly attributed to the necessity to run the crank case at a half quart low in order to prevent the oil from coming out of the vent. This seems ridiculous when you look at another product like the Fueling dipstick which offers two options such as a vented bolt on top of the dipstick OR having a tube and filter such as the A-1.
The more videos on You Tube that I watch the more I get the idea that these videos are mostly to sell products but do NOT tell a complete story. I have yet to see any tech videos like Doc Harley or Harley techs or even Kevin Baxter address these with any clarity and completeness. Videos like yours address these issues with people trying things and then reporting whether they have benefits or side effects but without giving any real "to the point" causes or complete explanations by techs that address the cause with a standard fix. I'm not in any way deprecating your video efforts to address these at all, and I appreciate your efforts, but they are not definitively proving cause and effect or absolute solutions. Because there are so many opinions there can't seem to be any definitive answers to the questions that come up with suggesting options. The more I dive into this the less confident I am when seeking a final solution to a problem I may never have if I ride my bike under 3000 rpm's for the life of the bike according to information that implies sumping is a non-issue if you never go over 3k rpm's...
The baxter video that suggested the tolerance buildup and solution to buy better parts than Harley makes is disheartening in thinking I just spent $30k on a bike that has inferior parts by a company that makes those inferior parts to sell you more expensive parts to solve an issue they create in planned obsolescence AND prevents you from going anywhere else under threat of losing your warranty.
Sorry, I don't mean to rant.. But I was wondering if Baxter gave you any insight into this vacuum thing at the crankcase or head bolts that is a bit more solid than these maybe yes and maybe not an issue renderings that I have come to a dead end with.
Hey Manonymous108 - yes, I have had several conversations with Kevin about this issue of crankcase pressure, vacuum, and sumping. I won’t put words in his mouth, but he confirmed the point about the vacuum source for the crankcase coming from the breather bolts by way of the throttle body. In his live Q&A video from March of this year (March 21 maybe?) he covers lots of questions about all of this, so track that one down if you’re up for more info on the topic. There is vacuum generated - but of course it varies with engine speed / throttle position. I’ll gather more info on this when I tackle the vacuum-tapped catch can version of the venting solution.
I also dislike the idea of running 1/2 quart less (or however much less) oil to keep a vented dipstick happy. My own vented dipstick project proved that cornering and acceleration will push the oil right out the dipstick vent, which is what led me to venting the transmission too cover.
Good discussion - thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter!
Just a thought but when you connected your gage to the crankcase vent on the trans cover did you put the check valve in line or leave it out?
My understanding (and i may be wrong) is that without the check valve vacuum will not build in the crankcase as the air is just flowing in from the vent hose when the pistons are going up (instead of being blocked off due to the check valve thus creating the vacuum in the case). When the pistons move down air flows out of the check valve into atmosphere thus allowing the crankcase to not over pressure and start sumping.
Hey Darren - good point. I attached the gauge directly to the barb on the top cover, so the gauge was actually serving as the check valve to allow it to pull a vacuum if there was one.
The blowby gasses enter the crankcase as seen by the bag filling
In the heads the umbrella valves separate the case from the intake manifold which is under varying amounts of vacuum depending on throttle position when conditions are correct the umbrella valves open and the blow by gasses move to the area of lowest pressure ie your intake then when conditions are correct the umbrella valves close again keeping gasses in the case and this process repeats
I would doubt the cases are ever under any amount of vacuum it seems to me the system works on the pressure difference within the system
a case breather is undoubtedly the way to go for me and let the heads breath external if any gasses ever reach there
Hey Kevin - let me know how it goes if you and a venting solution!
Hey, Ron! The fitting you used on the trans cover... was that a simple coupler or a one-way, reed-type valve? Thanks!
Hey Jack - that’s just a basic bulkhead fitting, but I have a check valve in the line above it. Check out the prior video for links and all the details: ruclips.net/video/U6gOhbRQrwE/видео.html
Let me know if you need more info.
@@RonsWorkshop thanks, brother! I appreciate the info.
I too was wondering about the same thing.... run one? if so, which one? run both? is that even necessary?
Anyway, I look fwd to seeing what you come up with. I'm on a '20 fxbb with the 107. I've got stage one on it. Definitely interested in engine longevity.
I’ll let you know how things look after a but. Ore monitoring. I suspect I’ll end up with both as before.
How can external breather effect vacuum? It does exactly same thing as before except instead of blowing air inside the intake it blows it outside.
Hey Street Glide - the theory is that the ports in the intake introduce vacuum…but I haven’t been able to measure any. So for me, after all my testing and experiments, the main concern is venting the pressure.
Ron do you think just adding the cover vent will take care of the oil getting in the intake?
Hey Grounded - the crankcase vent I used does a great job of venting the pressure and reducing the crud that gets to the intake. You can see the check-up video here: ruclips.net/video/jOATltGSkgU/видео.html
If you add the external breather mod you completely eliminate it, but you also remove the potential source of vacuum. It’s a trade off for sure, but venting the pressure is the big win.
vacuum in a crank case...never heard of such a thing unless you've got one heck of an oil pump but by the time you got one that strong you wouldn't need the pcv(s) which Harleys have 2...1 in either rocker box and they vent directly into the air cleaner when not modified elsewhere...all engines will have positive crank case pressure therefore they all have a pcv valve of some sort otherwise you would blow the case seals...and while yes you get some blow by its not really anything meaningful because what you're really seeing is well think of it as an air compressor where it will compressor air and oil vapor on one side of the piston while on the other side its doing its normal ic engine stuff...I say that because the pistons compress the air and oil vapor every time they come down instead of every other time like they do going up on your compression stroke
Hey Nathan - one thing to consider is the standard PCV valves that engines have. If there was never the possibility or benefit of vacuum, they wouldn’t have the one-way valve / check ball that only allows pressure to escape but allows vacuum. It would just be an open vent to allow the pressure to escape.
to messure vacum in the crank case you have to messure vacum in the intake...
thats the source of vacum in the crank case
if there is no outsource of vacum your crankcase will be under pressure
and the more blowby the more pressure
your crank case is suppossed to have vacum
and thats why breather tube is connected to intake
Hey Rokita - yes, but that vacuum goes to the crankcase when the stock head/intake venting is in place...but in my case it seems that the pressure is higher than the vacuum, or at least that with the gauge I was using it was not sensitive enough to capture any of the vacuum pulses. I've gor more info on this topic and I am working on the follow-up video.
Hey Rokita - I just posted the follow-up video: ruclips.net/video/BaG1VdOFe48/видео.html
There can't be any vacuum without a vacuum source.. I have no idea where that source would come from so it's reasonable to say that a Harley crankcase is never under vacuum.
Hey Greg - the only viable potential source that I’m aware of is the airflow through the intake / throttle body.
On my v twin I just put in place a one way check valve off of the upper breather tube. Works just like pcv valve.
Hey Dale - that sounds like a nice simple approach. I haven’t done anything with that breather tube. Is it a hard line or rubber? How’s it working for you?
@@RonsWorkshop I used hard line kit from J&P Cycle at the jug but instead of leaving it vent behind air breather I T'd behind oem breather and then ran soft tubing back by swing arm. When I got my bike I had to rebuild carb and noticed a good bit of oil in carb... sad part is this isn't just a Harley Davidson.... all cars, trucks have this issue. I'd like the EPA explain to me why burning motor oil is cleaner off environment than just gasoline or diesel.
Thanks for sharing your solution! I’ll have to check out that hard line kit. I hear you about the oil. I’m finishing up the follow-up video for this now and it should be up by tomorrow.
Hey Dale - I just posted the follow-up video: ruclips.net/video/BaG1VdOFe48/видео.html
Could you run a hose from the throttle body vacuum port to the trans cover vent?
Hey Chris - yes, that's an option. I tried it in this video (ruclips.net/video/5h6Apcj7DDg/видео.html), but I'm not sure if it's too much vacuum or not.
What about using the heavy breather solution but instead of to a catch can or filter use a close loop side to side?
Interesting idea - but I think you really need to vent it (with a check valve) to get the benefit - or apply external vacuum.
I found a PCV valve I can install on the transmission top cover that is threaded by barb going to install it that way.
Hey robyn - that’s a great option! Please give us the details on which PCV valve it is.
Thank you so much for your videos!! I have 19 RGS and I just bought the Arlen Ness monster sucker the same exact setup you have on my bike before I just went on a 2400 mile round trip. I noticed an excessive amount of oil all over my saddlebags all over my motor and I was freaking out wondering where this was coming from. As you know it was leaking out of the Arlen Ness monster sucker intake. So I am back now from my trip and did not know how I'm going to tackle this problem and I came across your video and although it is a good solution to block off the breeder bolts in the head I really did not want to drill and tap into a brand new expensive Arlen Ness intake. I have also been looking at the same transmission plate that you put on as a venting solution. Do you think it will solve my problem with the Arlen Ness big sucker blowing oil all over my bike by just using the transmission cover?
Hey Dustin - the transmission too cover vent will definitely be a big help. I’ll be monitoring the bolts and intake for oil over the next few weeks to see how it goes. I don’t think you can go wrong with some sort of crankcase vent mod - and honestly I expect to put the breather mod back too after doing some more testing and monitoring. But I totally get not wanting to mod the intake. Still on the hunt for hard facts on this. Thanks for the feedback, and let me know what you decide to do and how it goes.
If you want a channel sticker send me a DM on Telegram or Instagram with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
@@RonsWorkshop thank you for your response!.. I'm very interested in seeing how this mod improved your breather bolts.. I'm just aiming to not have oil all over my bike when going highway speeds and if I can get away with just doing the trans thing I will.. I want to do one or the other just don't know which way to go yet.. Your videos help alot!.. Thank you sir!
Ron, i've been having this issue since adding ss 124 kit. Oil pouring out of breather. Wut type fitting did u use n trans cover and will it hurt if I dont use check valve. If so wut exact name is that chk valve n where do I get. Been looking at all auto parts. Cant find
Hey Lester - definitely use the check valve. Today I’ll be posting my follow-up to this video where I clarify the open questions. I see that you found the other video with the parts list: ruclips.net/video/U6gOhbRQrwE/видео.html
I’ll respond to your other question over there.
Hey Lester - I just posted the follow-up video: ruclips.net/video/BaG1VdOFe48/видео.html
The easiest way to tell that crankcase vacuum is a myth. If there was ever any measurable crankcase vacuum you would never have to worry about pressure. The excess pressure you’re venting would just negate any vacuum. You’d have a net of pressure still so vacuum would never happen. Vacuum and pressure are opposite sides of the same atmospheric pressure. I don’t know if that explains it. It would need to be a perfect see saw and in stock form the one side of the see saw is always getting higher until it would no longer move.
Hey Busted knucks - I do see what you’re saying. Although I now understand why a vacuum is a good thing. It’s just sort of puzzling that I couldn’t detect any vacuum at all. Maybe it would be more pronounced at higher rpm.
I’ll be posting a follow-up video within a week or so.
Hello Ron, my bike has a revtech 100 engine... my question do you have information or suggestion of which option of ventilation for this type of engine fits it best.. thanks in advance...
Hey R R - unfortunately I don’t have any firsthand experience with those. I think the Revtech motors replace the 84-99 Evo, so you might try researching Evo crankcase venting. I know they have some sort of head breathers, but I dont know much more. Let me know what you find!
How is the heat( Engine Temp ) on them? What’s the Engine Temp range?
As well as Oil Temp?
Not sure - I don’t have telemetry to get the temps so I have no idea. I’ve seen no problems with the check valve after quite a few months of riding in hot Florida.
The breathers in the heads have one way valves.
Hey Jim - yep, you’re correct. Be sure to check out the follow-up video as well: ruclips.net/video/BaG1VdOFe48/видео.html
I just bought a 2022 RGL 114 ci. Stage 2 . I have done the intake bypass with a pod filter. Should I also vent the top transmission cover. I'm not sure if vented trans cover was a let's say 2017-2019 issue or if I should go ahead and do it on my 2022 . Thanks
Hey Joe -you could just do a simple check to see if you’ve got positive crankcase pressure (and almost certainly we all do). Just remove the oil filler cap, fire up the bike, and either stretch a balloon or tape a plastic bag around the filler hole - if it inflates you know you’ve got pressure that could be relieved. Let me know what you find!
Does this mean I don't need a check valve for the vent
Hey Taylor - it's definitely not required. You can also check out the recent video where I revisited this and cover the top questions: ruclips.net/video/JPI3AeMfYeg/видео.html
@Ron's Workshop hey thanks for the quick reply, I recently bought the nicecnc cover off of Amazon, only to find out it's only venting the transmition, which the stock already did. So, it looks like I'll be drilling and taping a fitting and filter in
I actually added a crankcase vent through the dipstick. Reason; I was getting oil in intake and at 60 miles my dipstick blew out, or open ruining the o-ring. My thought was to just vent the dipstick. No problems with it at all now (18000 miles) except I do get oil mist out of that vent. Quit a lot it seems. Any suggestions??
Hey Ric - did you use any sort of pod filter or does it just vent to the atmosphere? And where did you place the outlet of the vent? And what level do you keep your oil at?
@@RonsWorkshop yes there is a pod filter. I actually ran it up just above the intake. I was running a catch can, but I think this looks much better. My oil I run 1/2-3/4 quart low constant. Thank you
@@riceddy7420 I'm just not sure. I had similar problems with my DIY vented dipstick, but I got actual out discharge and not just mist. I never did end up with a solution that worked. I've seen other comments from viewers with similar issues but I'm not sure what causes it - I do know the Fueling dipstick has an oil separator, so maybe you just need something like that. The catch can serves that purpose, but as you noted it's bulky. For my crankcase vent I was able to hide the catch can behind the right side cover. There are also so pretty small catch cans out there, so maybe something like that would help?
Does using these MODS Lower Engine Temp?
I’m not sure, but it seems that the engine runs better after venting the crankcase, so it wouldn’t surprise me if there are a number of benefits.
What kind of check value are you using
Hey Steven - If you check the video description on this video you’ll see a parts list: ruclips.net/video/U6gOhbRQrwE/видео.html
Sometimes the check valves are out of stock. Let me know what you find.
All this but you did’nt twist the throttle? 🤨
Hey Jonathan - good question. Well, I did - there’s a little snippet of that in the video. I just didn’t include much of it because there was no difference.
Can you run the crankcase vent directly to the unused barb on the intake to add vacuum to the crankcase?
I’m working on a project now where I’ll do that - but with the addition of a catch can, and it will vent the crankcase (with check valve retained) and also incorporate the external breather mod. Could be the best of both worlds.
I see you point but I believe you don't want that oxygen depleted air to circle back into the system on the first place through that barb. Also as RPM's goes up the vacuum through the barb will get weaker and none at WOT.
@@scoobiduu yeah I rethought that out. After it leaves the crankcase why feed it back into the intake? Just vent both the crankcase and breather bolts to atmosphere is what I’m going to do
Hey Roy - that’s a valid point about the hot gasses for sure. I finished the catch can project. I’m not sure what the gas temps are but no doubt they are warm, but perhaps it’s a small enough amount to avoid negative impact. I’m currently using a throttle body vacuum source that seems to be constant. That allows me the keep the crankcase under vacuum. You can check it out here: ruclips.net/video/5h6Apcj7DDg/видео.html
@@RonsWorkshop First and foremost I love your channel keep up the good work. Second I watched your video you linked, Thank-you for catching me up. Third I know there are other catch-can projects out there but this one is pretty good. It might need a patent. Now for the cons, I don't like the fact of the closed loop system. That air in the crankcase is coming from somewhere and my only guesstimate is that it is blow-by, which is oxygen deprived. Then feeding it back into the engine. Toyota done the exact same thing as this system you came up with for motorcycles and separate the oil mist from air. This is there we disagree. I think its better to let it vent to the atmosphere. Having some vacuum in the crankcase is good but at what degree. If there any negative side effects it maybe a horsepower or less and then gain that back by the vacated crankcase pressure. Hell that evens it out. You solved the oil mist so there shouldn't be and build-up of carbon anywhere. Overall PERFECT SYSTEM!!! in a perfect world of EPA compliance. I'll be watching you sonny!!!
Try to contact Kevin Baxter
I've had several conversations with Kevin and he was very generous in giving me input on these issues, and that was a big part of the follow-up video to this one. He's a great guy and wealth of information!