Historical Leg Harness Suspension of the Late 14th and Early 15th Centuries
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- Опубликовано: 24 июл 2024
- In this, what may be one of the most important videos of the series, we discuss the historical idea of suspending the leg harness. The first portion of the video will be the rationale behind each method, and the second part of the video will demonstrate the practical use of each method.
Special thanks to the people from the Armour Archive for the translation of the medieval sources!
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To read more about the lendenier including details and citations of the known historical sources, check out my article on KnyghtErrant.com - knyghterrant.com/index.php/201...
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Jeff Wasson, Armorer
www.wassonartistry.com
#medievalarmor #livinghistory #knyghterrant
To read more about the lendenier including details and citations of the known historical sources, check out my article here - knyghterrant.com/index.php/2016/04/06/historical-sources-for-the-arming-girdle-lendenier-with-commentary/
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3248716/
Limitations imposed by wearing armour on Medieval soldiers' locomotor performance.
The one thing I find really amazing about medieval armour is how well it''s designed. There are loads of clever solution to little problems.
+Almus Quotch As a wanna be product designer I want to research historical design solutions and apply them to modern problems or problems created by over designing, or the advent of fossil fuels.
Well there was a lot of money being put into the development of it XD
thank you for talking about the possible spinal compression from wearing loose fitting armor/harnessing. I recently got out of the Marine Corps. and thousands of my fellow veterans including myself are plagued by back problems because of improperly fitted flak jackets and helmets. This is very real stuff you're talking about.
+billyboy3404 The military did a number on my back as well, so any ounce of comfort I can squeeze from my armor, the better :)
Personal anecdote: I pointed my leg harness to my gambeson for a few years. It was a late 16th c. 3/4 plate harness, so historical evidence made sense. After the gambeson stretched and I lost weight, it became too loose to provide proper support at the hips. Supporting the weight 100% on the shoulders was less than optimal. On the advice of a long time veteran harness fighter who is training me, I had a friend make me a leather lendenier. The difference was like night and day. Suddenly I had so much more easy movement and my fighting improved significantly. Mine is buckled, but the laced and padded version looks more comfortable. I am not fond of the commercial linen one out there today, but I may try my hand at making one myself. It looks much more comfortable than the leather. (Currently my 16th c. kit is semi-retired because of lack of accuracy in some components, and I've been using a 3rd q. 14th c. kit the last 6 months.)
Honestly, this the best accurate medieval source I’ve found on youtube for armor and such things. Not only is this my go-to channel right now, but his voice is also very calm, and not to crazy like others. Easy to listen to, watch and even fall asleep, if I’m having troubles
Excellent video. Thanks for putting it all into a concise format.
Awesome work. Thank you for your working putting it together. Please continue making works such as this.
Thank you for sharing! BTW the German word "Lendenier" is composed of the words for loin and kidney "Lende" and "Nier" (which is southern German - where I live, it's called "Niere").
Ich würde meinen, dass das Wort "Niere" im gesamten deutschen Sprachraum der offizielle Terminus ist (außer beim Essen - da können es auch "Nierndeln" sein).
Clemens Kindermann Oder "Niernle", wenn wir uns im Südwesten statt im Südosten befinden. ;)
Robin Schuhmacher So ist es! Schöne Grüße aus Wien in den alemannischen Westen! :-)
Amazing! I've been looking for this for so many years. Thanx, your videos are great!
Fantastic job pal, very informative video. Do you think a gambeson could work similarly to an arming doublet by adding points coming out from it?
+Metatron Thanks! If the gambeson is not tightly fitted around the waist and hips to provide that girdling effect, it will end up just transferring all the weight of the leg harness to your shoulders, which could make the armor very uncomfortable to wear. It's all about the tailoring, and most gambesons seem to fit too loosely for this principle to work with them.
I'm currently using a separate textile lendenier, but would like to use my dublet instead since the '1 finger thick' padded lendenier doesn't suit my slim mid-15th century arming doublet well.
However, as you say it's missing a bit of tailoring to support the weight on the hips.
I'm wondering if the thin leather lendenier could be sewn/integral to the doublet to achieve the same effect of transferring weight to the hips.
Knyght Errant - Perhaps that lendenier was suppoased to be used in pair with the gambeson, instead of the arming doublet for exactly that reason.
BTW I was just wondering about the way the leg and arms harness works with the late 15 century (german) style armor... while in the use with the mail voiders of the crotch. Kinda cant find any solid information on this topic - the suspention of the "mail throusers" with the plate legs.
@@salazar4810 Well first off, you have to define what a 'gambeson' is. Medieval terminology is vague, and gambeson can mean anything quilted
In that sense, yes you do see gambesons worn under plate armor (only in the transitional period though). And yes, it is entirely possible for that lendenier to be used in that configuration. Though said gambesons would be extremely thin, and only lightly padded, if not completely unpadded.
However what you also see in the late 14th century are the 'Pourpoints', which also technically are gambesons as they're quilted. The surviving one, belonging to Charles de Blois, does not have any sort of arming points.
It is very form-fitting however (Ians clothes are based upon it) and it is possible that the lendenier was used under such a garment, since the garments itself does not have any arming points to attach the leg harness.
All in all I find the second alternative more likely.
As for the mail worn in the crotch, you have either a skirt of mail or a mail brayette, both of which just lace on on top of your doublet. You rarely see mail hosen in use with full plate
This is quite an inspiration for extant examples that can leap some restructuring hurdles I am coping with.
I have seen snug thin versions used, but what you describe is akin to the base structure of my body armor. The primary purpose being leg harness support, but also kidney protection. It changes shape when you move due to padded triangles mated one up one down /\/\/\. This is covered in box pleated leather meant to mimic an Irish Ionar; which also matches the description of a lendeneir if padded.
Fantastic video, thank you for making it! - To back up your experimental archaeology, I've been using an arming cote similar to yours for attachment of leg harness for a number of years and thoroughly agree with your evidence and method for doing so. The two key aspects I've found to be crucial in making it work are to have the doublet waist/skirt fitting tightly as yours does, and also ensuring the leg harness is properly fitted (i.e. skin tight, and of historic thickness) - which yours appears to be. The armour fit means that the armour is (a) lighter than many recreations which makes the weight bearing simpler, and (b) skin-tight fitting means the contours of the body help to hold up the armour, and it has less tendency to slip (hence the weight bearing equation becomes even simpler).
Just got through your vid on arming garments and greaves, realise you're already on top of this stuff so please ignore my comment above as you are certainly aware of this stuff already. Again, wonderful work on making these videos.
Hugh McDonald No worries. I appreciate you helping to get the information out there! Sometimes I feel like in my observation, some people guard their historical knowledge like it's a secret, or use it to be competitive with other people about 'who knows more,' which I find ridiculous, so anyone helping to get good historical knowledge out there is doing the right thing in my book.
I am so glad I found your channel. I'm just getting into reenactment and I'm glad I'm starting with a basic commoner-with-some-extra-coin kit because that's so much easier to recreate. But I knew of the Pourpoint (or at least the doublet that most sellers *call* a pourpoint) and thought I was really getting into the heart of it but now I'm watching your channel and I'm learning a lot even though I already knew a lot of this. I'm sure before I start building a knightly kit I'll learn a lot more surprising things!
Hi Ian, thank you for sharing your information! I have shared your video series on Facebook (on our page Knight for Hire) and I am in the process of attempting to make a lendenier at present (though fitting one to someone with a bit of a tummy tyre is proving difficult)
I really want you to know that the re-enactors I speak to really appreciate what you are doing with your channel, your comments and research are a very valuable resource.
+Hands on History Thank you very much, I appreciate it! Very glad to hear that people are finding this information useful!
We sure are, keep up the good work! Any idea what the next videos will be on?
I would absolutely love to see a video on quilting, making the arming doublet / pourpoint, making braies that can point in both the back and the front, and how to secure points for armor on cloth garments! I absolutely love the soft kit videos, and they help me build my skills as a reenactor who's had little no experience, and even less good experiences, with sewing for myself.
brilliant videos but damn you for making me want armour all the more, the wallet suffers
look forward to the next one
this is fantastic, thank you very much
Great tutorial. Also I recognized Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, and Game of Thrones on the bookshelves. Nice!
I learn so much watching your channel
Thank you! I'm happy that you're enjoying it!
So happy i found this video. With this i managed to both have on my chausses and leg harnesses on at the same time. I created mine out of a strong hide leather with points but i placed the points to the front thigh and around towards the back for better weight balance and it works.
If you have the opportunity, you can experiment with different point placement. For optimal mobility and long term comfort, I've found suspending the legs right where your femural head inserts into the hip socket to be best, but there isn't necessarily one right way.
Years late, but I think you're right about the two methods overlapping in use. Unlike an RTS, upgrades don't instantly apply to everyone equally - and the doublet method isn't even necessarily an upgrade since it would require much more cohesive manufacture of a single piece that needs to be personalized, whereas the London Ear looks like it has the potential to be adjustable. I wouldn't be surprised if the doublet method started with knights, but lesser men-at-arms or retainers still used the older style just because it was cheaper to issue at the time. 'course, that's a gut instinct and who knows maybe research since then has proven it one way or the other.
Either way, really loving this deep dive into each component of armor. Great thing to watch while working out and as reference material.
Thank you answered so many questions
Fascinating video. I had no idea there was such an uncertainty about how harness legs were suspended.
Thank you very much for the time and effort that go into your videos. They are certainly among the best on the topic on the entire website.
I have a question about the lacing itself, if you don't mind me asking about such details, namely how exactly do you tie them off? What knot do you use?
Thank you again for this video series.
+Abel Babel Hi, and thank you. When I get to the top of any spiral lace, I usually go through the last two holes twice through, and then a simple overhand knot prevents it from backing out.
+Knyght Errant That would be for closing the lendenier or the front of the arming doublet, yes? Interesting.
Is it a different knot for actually tying the harness legs to the suspension, i.e. when you tie them off after pulling them through the leather tab of the legs?
I am asking so strangely because I recently saw this: prntscr.com/8rkn09 and cannot seem to find any other sources or mentions of it.
Now I'm wondering if it is so common no one bothers talking about it or so obscure because it's the invention of a single modern interpretation - basically, is that thing made up or not?
Perhaps you can shed some light on this?
+Abel Babel The knot you linked is very similar to what I use for pointing my harness. I'd have to check if it's identical, but I do end up with a single bow like that, which can be immediately released by pulling the long end. The only exception to this is on my sabatons. I use a square knot on the sabs for two reasons. The first is the single bow knot can wind up getting stepped on or snagged on something and it will immediately pull out, and the second is the only surviving fragment of the effigy of Philip the Bold (the one you see in most photos is a restoration) is the tip of a sabaton, configured like mine, and the point looks like a square knot (s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/2d/2d/77/2d2d7794bea99031962578d082d05542.jpg)
I see. It's impressive how you have a source for everything at the ready.
Thank you for taking the time to answer!
Thank you very much.
oh man this helps me so much with my unconfortable constuction i made myself thank you :)
Your videos are very educational! Thanks for making them.
I notice you're not wearing anything under the leg harness other then the woolen hoses. Historically, would there have been padding and/or maille underneath the leg harness? And if so, how would they have been suspended? Also, how would that affect the shaping of the greaves?
+brutalbarbarian Thank you. By the time plate leg harness was realized in its complete form, the need for underlying padding became redundant. Leg harness is far too closely fitted to allow for padding underneath. Small patches of mail were used historically to protect gaps left by the leg harness (like the back of the knee or the top of the ankle where it joins the foot). These mail voiders would have likely been sewn to the closely fitted hosen underneath. Heavily padded plate armor is really more of a modern re-enactorism than anything else. You can see the result of over-padding armor in a lot of modern reproductions that fail to achieve proper anatomical shaping to allow for all of the bulk underneath. Even the amount of padding worn under a mail harness is very likely over-estimated by a lot of modern re-enactors.
Knyght Errant Thanks for the reply. So at most, it'll be a layer of chain covering the inside of the thigh, stitched/attached to the un-padded hoses, with no chain going into the greaves. Was curious since your kit does have padding and chain going into the vambraces, yet your legs were comparatively unprotected.
Amazing videos; am bingewatching your whole channel, and repeatedly impressed by your attention to detail and historicity, as well as the cool stuff you own.
One question- with the textile lendenier, you mention eyelets; what material would those be? Wouldn't you need leather to take the weight of the armour, and the strain of battlefront usage (especially at the stress-points of the eyelets)?. Or maybe I'm underestimating 14th C textiles? (The word "eyelet" makes me picture modern,metal eyelets,but surely metal eyelets weren't around in that era?)
Impressive work, though, and great quality videos.
An eyelet is essentially a hole in the fabric held open with thread. Sometimes they could be reinforced with a metal ring, but it's unnecessary in this case. The hole is opened using a round and tapering awl, which doesn't cut any of the fibers, it just parts them so it's very strong. Then stitches are worked around the opening to hold it open with a heavy waxed linen thread. The point (the string that ties on the armor) will fail long before the eyelet itself. Here's a close-up of one of the eyelets in my arming doublet: c1.staticflickr.com/9/8629/16481592227_32d821c55f_b.jpg
Ah, that makes sense. I was picturing something like modern eyelet construction, where the material is hole-punched so that fibres are cut.
I find this sort of detail fascinating. For me, the way you address these details really sets your channel apart from many other comparable channels (not that those channels don't have other strengths, of course. Just that this is a particular strength of yours. Just my two cents.)
So, after all that gushing praise, maybe I could throw in a a non-leg-harness-related question ? I've spotted a few examples of harnesses where there is a rondel on the back of the neck
www.armourarchive.org/patterns/armet_sinric/
(Obviously this example is a modern replica, but there are three extant examples on this page, too myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=21152. Seems to be mostly an Italian thing?)
So, what is the purpose of this rondel on the back of the neck? My first impression was maybe it's meant to protect the gap between rear of helmet and back-plate, but (A) they usually seem placed too high on the helmet for that purpose, covering plate rather than mail (B) it seems way too small to be effective for a proportionately large gap, (C) surely a gorget, or some other purpose-shaped plate would be a better solution for that purpose than a generic rondel (these don't seem like cheap harnesses, compromised for cost) , and (D) surely any 'protect your neck' bennefit would be out-weighed by the fact you've now got a new protuberance to catch blows, which seems counter to the idea of having smooth surfaces of plate to encourage blows to glance off.
I realise that maybe the answer is "we don't really know"; it's just something that's puzzled me, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, if you'd care to weigh in.
Either way, thanks for the info on the eyelet thing. Very interesting.
The rondel on the back of the helmet always appears on 15th century armet style helmets. These helmets had an optional piece that could be worn over the front portion of the lower face and throat called a 'wrapper' plate. With the wrapper in place you get a more robust defense for the throat and jaw, but at the cost of losing the mobility of the helmet. You would do this for something like a cavalry charge or a joust when you expect to get hit in the face with a lance. It appears that the rondel on the back of the armet is there to provide a convenient place to secure the strap for the wrapper since it must go around the back of the helmet and would otherwise slip off. Here you can see the wrapper being put on by Jeff Wasson (he's the gentleman who made most of my armor) in his personal reproduction of a 15th century Italian armor and observe how it works - ruclips.net/video/2HwRqJwXXcQ/видео.htmlm40s
Hi, thanks for that video. I have a question about that suspension system but regarding maille chausses. I'll get straight to the point : When I sit, crouch, bend the knee etc, the thigh part of the chausse is sliding down, only my leather strap below the knee prevent the chausse from falling. And when I stand again it doesn't slide back up like a plate would do, instead it streches, kind of blocked being the thigh, causing discomfort, even pain. Looks like maille chausses do not react like a leg plate when it comes to moving the leg, the hip joint in particular.
Meanwhile, I keep seeing belts being used anywhere I can find pictures, with nice fitting chausses noneless (no stack of mail on top of the knee strap). I have tried to craft a basic lendenier but the fabric was ripped apart right after I stood (now it is being reinforced by a tailor but I fear I will have the same problems)
I can see you are not particularly oriented toward full mail XIII century armor, but if you have a solution I would glady try it !
NB : 8mm round riveted and partly enclosed chausses
As aways very useful, is there and links or places to get the the Arming Girdle or Lendenier pattern.
Love you videos. I have a C-belt that I used to use when I was fighting in the SCA. What I couldn't help thinking about was how similar the C-belt is to the lendenier. The one I have is literally the same thing but made out of leather and has straps. It sits on the waist in the same way and is designed to be narrower at the top so it does not slide off the waist. I know you said its not historical from a historical example point of view but it really makes me wonder; leather was very common back then and its made in the nearly exact same shape so isn't it likely someone wore a C-belt type of leg harness? (minus the straps over the tie points maybe).
pourpoints were also common and used a little earlier in the 14th great for armor and also nice in the winter to hold the chausses up....
Do you have evidence for this? I'm not asking to be a jerk, I'm genuinely curious because I'd like to see it. I ask because there's almost no evidence for pourpoints/doublets being used to suspend leg armor directly in the 14th century at all other than 'collective re-enactor wisdom' which doesn't stand up to scrutiny when challenged for documentation. I used to think the same until I was challenged, and discovered quickly that it's a lot of back-extrapolation from later periods and assumptions that don't have directly supporting evidence.
Knyght Errant it seems the only information I can find is the same information from your video. it appears I made a logical leap in my kit I used the old use what you got mentality.
Are there examples of plate armor liker yours that was worn over mail pants. Like on the upper body, with the breastplate and the arms over the mail shirt?
+MRZWAGLI There is evidence for patches of mail filling in gaps like on the back of the knee and in the gap of the ankle. The only reason I wear a full mail shirt is because I don't wear a backplate in my armor's current configuration. If I wore a full cuirass I would likely switch to discrete sleeves of mail and a skirt of mail.
do you find that you have to adjust your leg harness while wearing it for a period of time? if so, how often? i find it difficult to believe that the leather attachments, the pointing laces, and the fabric dont stretch during use causing the leg harness to sag.
is there a way for you to make me the arming doublet you wear ? the ones i have fit but there is way too much material in the arm area
I've been experimenting with similar types of arming garments for a year or so, and figuring out the construction can be a bit daunting (especially trying to adapt an existing pattern up to my size). I made my own helm lining and doublet so far, and I'm moderately pleased with the outcome, though I immediately started listing improvements I should make next time. Do you create your own? If not, who do you get them from? Either way, some future videos on construction techniques would be fascinating. Thanks for the videos you've made thus far.
+Wingwalker716 I made my doublet and lendenier myself. The lendenier are of my own design, but the doublet was originally from a commercial pattern. The one you see in this video is the second version of it that I made. I had learned a lot since the first version and added in all those improvements when I made this one. This version is also completely hand-finished and hand-quilted so there are no visible machine stitches either inside or out. The pattern I used for the doublet is available here: www.lulu.com/shop/tasha-kelly/the-pourpoint-of-charles-de-blois/paperback/product-22344252.html
@@KnyghtErrant I know I'm late to this party, but it would be helpful for me to know: how did you go about developing the pattern for the lendenier?
@@jaredbaker7230 Some important features of the lendenier are that the overall form is 'U' shaped, with the upper edge being roughly your waist measurement and the lower edge being roughly your hip measurement, and this will ensure that it cannot ratchet down over time. A lot of people try to make a rectangle, which is doomed to failure because it can and will slide down over time. It is essentially the lower half 1/3 of tight waisted doublet.
when i bought my leg harness for a suit of armor, it did not come w/ any straps. Thinking about it on my own and without any historical consultation (as I was more worried about making the armor SCA combat compatible asap) I simply used thick 3 inch wide leather straps to create loops attached to the leg harness, via rivets, that i measured to come up to where I'd wear a belt under a chain mail shit but over an arming jacket...I put a sturdy belt through both leg harness straps and then put it on as I would any normal belt. It holds up well and fit really isn't a problem. I think that would be a simple solution and something easily dreamt up by contemporary armorers and men-at-arms.
Is there anywhere one can purchase a lendenier like these?
hi!
Really nice Video!
I also want to make a Lendenier, and I decided to make a Textil on, could you tell me wat yours paddet with? Cotton?
Hi, yes it's padded with cotton in between a linen shell.
Thanks allot!
Where did you find the piece on Bruges in Dutch-French , I recall seeing it posted on myarmory.
+DushinSC Here's the text of the document: www.dbnl.org/tekst/_bru004jges01_01/_bru004jges01_01_0008.php
if you ctrl-F for 'pourpoint' you'll find the relative sections of the document I referred to
How do you find the difference between the lendenier and the pourpoint for purpose of body torque at the waist? I wore a fitted pourpoint that rested the weight of my leg armour beautifully on the hips, but I found that when my body twisted at the waist, there was a pull on the leg harness. It was why I started using the "leg support vest." Completely freed up the body movement issue. I would like to graduate further and see how the lendenier works with the pourpoint, as well.
Once I switched to the lendenier I never looked back. From a practicality standpoint, in my opinion it is superior to an arming doublet for a couple of reasons. Because it doesn't go any higher than your waist, there is simply no chance of it pulling on the shoulders or behaving weird after it stretches from being sweaty all day etc... Any twisting you do doesn't pull because the lendenier is on your hips, so a lot of that movement is occurring north of the lendenier anyway, keeping your suspension method in line with your legs. It's also really nice to be able to unlace my arming doublet without having to worry about my legs falling off.
I greatly appreciate the insight. I know I seem to be bombarding your channel with questions, all of the sudden, but I took a hiatus from reenactment for a few years after some...lets just call them complications. I recently discovered the channel (Thanks Metatron!) and am very pleased that your Living History level of accuracy mirrors almost all of what I had learned. I was very fortunate to have been a student of Doug Strong's for several years (before life brought me to FL) and to have had his tutelage in armouring. I love that you reference his harness charts throughout several of your videos showing the prominence of use of the various types of armour used throughout the 14th century. I remember when he was doing that research.
A thought that I had while watching through your various arming videos - I noticed that you didn't mention the weights of each piece you were donning. I think that would be a great piece of educational information for your viewers, given the commonality of thought that armour was very heavy (unless I have missed a video somewhere.
Anyway, sorry for the ramble. Thanks again!
Ian, I'm really enjoying the series! I guess this is the best place in the series to ask this - Was armor over the buttocks limited to textile protection? Or, a combo of textile and a mail skirt? I know it would be hard to ride a horse or sit with plate back there, and it would be a difficult target in a melee. Was it just not considered a high enough risk area to articulate plate armor?
+gpgpgpgp1000 Some of the later 16th century tournament foot combat armors have fully enclosed butts or a tonlet (which is like a huge plate skirt), but for most of the medieval it was a combination of textile and mail. Sometimes in the form of a skirt, sometimes a brayette (which is kind of like a diaper of mail), sometimes the fauld of the cuirass extends low enough as well and then collapses when sitting on a horse.
+Knyght Errant Ok, thanks for replying with the info. I'm sure that's the kind of question some of us were curious about, but almost feel silly asking. : )
On arm harnesses, the vambrace and rerebrace, the whole arm, is one single unit, is there any reason why the greave and cuisse are not linked in the same manner?
Hi Ian, may I have a question, please? I just want to ask, if it is possible to use landenier to suspend padded leg armour too? And from your point of view based on your personal experience, what is better? Landenier or suspending leg harness to arming doublet? I am just wondering if it won´t restrict my shoulder mobility if I suspend it to my gambeson. Thank you and sorry for my english, I´m not a native speaker :D
BTW impressive work! I have learned so much things from your videos, keep doing such a great job :D
Hi Jan, and thank you! You should be able to suspend anything worn on the legs from a lendenier or equivalent. We even see artwork that shows similar girdles simply being used to hold up civil hosen. The lendenier will guarantee that no weight will be transferred to the shoulders. The lendenier must be made so that it can be laced _tight_ and I do mean _tight_ . If it's loose at all it will slide down over time. An arming doublet, if made properly will also ensure that no weight is transferred to the shoulders, but the key to this is that it be _made properly_ and _tailored to you_ . If the arming doublet is not fit just right through the waist and hips it will inevitably transfer some weight to your shoulders.
Thanks for the reply!
What weight and type leather did you use?
Would it be possible to make one of these serve double purpose as padding for the mail briefs you discussed in another video?
I suppose so. The points could be pulled through the mail for the pointing of the legs to make it work.
Knyght Errant Or it could be a one piece garment that has a mail covering and padded lining special brass or bronze plated rings to highlight the where the grommets go through the lining.
it looks like you designed the linen one to fit under the leather. Do the holes line up?
seeing the image of full leg armor with no torso armor made me wonder if there are historical examples of individuals wearing plate/splint/mail on the legs and/or arms but not wearing any protection, or maybe just a padded jack, on the torso. Are there any examples of this in Europe? I was thinking about certain types of Roman gladiators wearing no torso armor but relatively heavy arm and lower leg protection along with a shield, but I don't think I've seen anything like that in later periods in Europe.
+Erik Tasker I tend to doubt it, as the torso is probably the most important thing to protect next to the head. I suspect the illustration in this video is showing people in various stages of donning armor, not ready to fight.
+Knyght Errant makes perfect sense, I was just curious :) as always, great videos! I'm just re-watching them, haha
Hi Ian, great video. What would you say are the main differences between a "c-belt" and your leather leather "lendeneir" (apologies if I butchered that)?
I use c-belt myself and, as far as I can tell, it was patterned and performs to accomplish all the same tasks as your garment. My points even sit in the same spot!
Colm Kiely A modern c-belt is usually made from unnecessarily thick leather (like latigo or something similar). While it will certainly keep your legs on, it tends to be uncomfortable over long periods of time and many people report that it restricts certain movements or makes it difficult to sit down. The lendenier, whether made of supple leather or a textile, does not restrict movement in any way. It moves very easily with the body and is still comfortable when worn over long periods of time. Most of the people I know who wear c-belts *tolerate* them, they don't enjoy them.
Thanks for the reply. My belt (and those of the other fighters I know) is made of thicker leather, about 3mm thick (1/8"), but I haven't found it uncomfortable or ever noticed it constraining me. I know one fighter who found his uncomfortable, but that was actually a tailoring error.
Perhaps I need to experiment with a quilted garment like you have and see what the difference is!
Quick question, The strings that the leg harness is attached to the arming doublet, what are they made of? I can imagine that they are under substantial strain and would need to be strong.
they are heavy braided linen thread, and then saturated with melted beeswax
Knyght Errant thank you so much
How would one go about making a leather or cloth lendenier? I can't seem to find any place that sells them so making one is the only option.
I'm in a late 14th century medieval re-enactment group and am currently using a leather belt that is freely hanging of my waist to attach my leg harness and it kills my hip bones. So any help would be appreciated.
+bluephoenix222 At 7:00 when I hold it up, that's essentially the pattern. The top edge is about the waist measurement, but can never be larger than your hips or it will slide down. The bottom curved edge (ignoring the swells) is about the hip measurement. I made mine to be slightly small, so the edges don't quite meet in the back until I apply the tension of the lacing.
Knyght Errant Thanks, love your videos by the way.
And what about metod used in XII-XV century - bindings sew into gambeson? If you use those with quilted legs harness just works with them instead of hanging from belts etc.
+AgraeLpl As listed, several of the sources I pointed to are 13th century and specific to mail hosen, so the lendenier certainly applies to earlier time periods as well.
1. King's MIrror c.1250 (iron hose girded on with a double strap)
2. Both poems mentioned are 13th century
3. Heinrich von dem Turlin's, Diu Crone (1220-1230) list lendener amongst other inventory items
For the XV century, while the doublet is depicted in art, the lendener is still popping up in textual documents.
1. Teuthonista (1477) latin dictionary lists 'Balteus - lendenier - Eyn ritterlick gordel of ryem dayr dat harnesch an hengt - a knightly girdle or belt where the harness hangs from.'
2. Vocabularius Copiosus - 1477-1483 - Balteus - lendenier - Cingulum militare... (military girdle)
How did you decide how curved to make the cone shape on your lendiniers?
+godofimagination The curve basically follows the same arc of the waist seam on any doublet.
i ended up making a padded arming girdle which i suspend my legs on, so much more comfortable than just tying them to a belt which would tend to crush ones kidneys after awhile
Can you please tell me more about the picture at 8:45, where and when it's from? Thanks!
Hi Petr that's a detail from a fresco in the Chiesa di San Fiorenzo, Bastia Mondovi, Italy. To the best of my knowledge, most of the frescoes (and there are quite a few) date to the mid 15th century when the church underwent significant expansion.
@@KnyghtErrant that's near me, cool!
Hey Ian. I just read your myarmory.com post about making your gambeson. I also have Tasha Kelly's book. I have a few questions regarding the project. First, how did you get the pages of the pattern? I don't want to rip them out of my book, but it doesn't look like you used a photocopy machine. Also, if you had any advice for yourself in the past, what would it be? I have ZERO sewing experience, but I want to make this garment. I'm actually debating making something else first for the experience, then making the gambeson.
Thank you for your time, and please keep up the excellent videos.
godofimagination Hi! I'm pretty sure I did rip them out very carefully and then trimmed off the scrap. You could probably also cut them out with a razor or xacto knife on top of a cutting mat l to make sure you don't tear anything you don't want to. I was in your shoes, with no sewing experience either. I would say be very patient and pin everything in place before you sew it to make sure it fits like you think it will. Otherwise you're going to spend a lot of time with the seam-ripper re-doing things. I treated the whole project as a learning experience anyway, and I re-did a lot as I went because of mistakes. You can always remove a seam and re-sew. What you can't do though, is add back fabric that you've already cut off. :)
The hardest part of the gambeson is the sleeves. So if you want to practice something first, practice setting in triangular gores to a slit like in the sleeve caps. I think there are 4 gores per sleeve off the top of my head, so the more consistent you are at that skill, the easier your sleeve will go in when the time comes. Just practice setting gores on some of your excess fabric until you're comfortable. I knew, being my first major sewing project, that it wasn't going to be perfect, but I definitely got a good serviceable garment out of it. It's been a couple years since I made that, and since then I've sewed a lot of other historical garments and have learned quite a bit and was able to apply that to the Mk II version of the garment that I made at the beginning of this year. The good thing is Tasha has really made the instructions accessible to people with minimal experience, so read them, re-read them, and read them one more time and make sure you have a good idea of what she's intending before you start assembling, and it should go pretty smoothly.
Knyght Errant I just don't want to remove them from my book at all so I can use them again. Thank you for the reply. Did the grand assiette work the first time?
godofimagination Oh ok! I thought you were just afraid of damaging them during removal, I misunderstood. I just took the individual pieces of the pattern, folded them up so they'd fit and stored them in a manila envelope when I was done with them. I pulled them out after a couple years of storage to make the second doublet, unfolded them, and they were just fine. Using the pattern is not destructive to the pieces at all. I just set some heavy objects on them to weigh them down on the fabric when I trace my patterns. They should last you forever if you store them safely. With the sleeves I did wrestle with setting them into the body the first time, but once they were in they worked just fine.
How to you trace them without cutting them?
You still cut out the individual pieces. Then you lay them on the fabric with weights, trace them with your tailor's chalk, remove the pattern piece, and cut out the fabric on the chalk line. Then when it's all said and done, fold up the individual pattern pieces so they will fit in your storage method of choice and pack them away until needed again. I have a little tote filled with manila envelopes that each contain pattern pieces for various historical garments.
what do you find is the most effective and which is the most comfortable option out of the two?
My preference is the fabric arming girdle / lendenier, both from a performance and a comfort standpoint. If made right, it does not permit the legs to slide down, and it cannot put any unnecessary strain on the shoulders. The doublet is great too, but it requires the tailoring be very very precise or it will start transferring force the shoulders immediately, but if made properly, again it will perform exactly like you want. Once nice 'quality of life' feature the arming girdle offers is you can loosen or remove your doublet and your legs won't fall off :)
I don't suppose you made a pattern for the Londoneer?
How was climbing in leg harness, as in, would a knight in plate be able to flex his legs enough to step onto ladder rungs?
In most cases leg harness allows enough hip flexion to lift your foot onto a ladder rung with no problem (or get your foot into stirrups).
Thank you for answering. Another question, due to the weight of *jousting* armor, not battlefield armor, how did knights mount horses for jousting. Were the legs of the armor fixed to the horse or were knights helped onto their steeds for the match?
For the most part, you can still mount the horse on your own with the help of a small wooden step ladder. If the harness involves something really unwieldy like a big stechhelm, you may leave that off while you mount, and then one of your valets would assist you with pinning/bolting/strapping on the helmet once you're up on the horse.
heey Errant I had a question on the historical source from Bruges (Brugge), what is the complete context of the source and where did your find it?
+Casper van Dijk Source: De Bouc vanden Ambachten, ca. 1370 (handschrift)
The text: www.dbnl.org/tekst/_bru004jges01_01/_bru004jges01_01_0008.php
If you Ctrl-F for 'pourpointier' or 'pourpointstickere' you will find hte pertinent parts I was referring to.
But they are:
Donaes, de pourpointstickere,
sal mi maken een wambies
ende een lendenier.
And then in French:
Donas, le pourpointier,
me fera un pourpoint
et unes estraintes.
thank you very much!
Never thought I’d spend 18 minutes watching a man in underwear explain what a garter belt is and how to wear it.
(I genuinely enjoyed the video if it wasn’t clear through the joke)
How would a man with a big gut cope with this? Your young, hungry man at arms will likely be slim, but even setting aside the overfed aristocrats (who would still want good armor), there are plenty of big, strong, active fighting men with huge bellies. I can see the doublet working. Was the lendenier just extended to the base of the ribcage to suspend properly over the swell of the belly? It would be less comfortable and probably less effective. Any other ideas?
Well, any movement away from the ideal is going to make the armor less comfortable and less optimal for how it should be worn. A doublet will still hold up your legs for example if you've a large midsection but it will inevitably transfer weight to the shoulders. Fat will compress to a certain degree obviously, but if you take it too far, well, Geffroi de Charny had firsthand observation of that in the XIVth century:
From the English Translation of _A Knight's Own Book of Chivalry_ by _Geoffroi de Charny_
"What is more, it is not enough for them to be as God made them; they are not content with themselves as they are, but they gird themselves up and so rein themselves in round the middle of their bodies that they seek to deny the existence of the stomachs which God has given them: they want to pretend that they have not and never had one, and everyone knows that the opposite is true. And one has seen many of those thus constricted who have to take off their armor in a great hurry. for they could no longer bear to wear their equipment; and there are others who have been quickly seized, for they could not do what they should have done because they were handicapped by being thus constricted; and many have died inside their armor for the same reason, thay they could put up little defense..."
I love it that you had a primary source citation for something like this.
The obvious job of a pourpoint is in the name - = for points! I would say a pourpoint is really a garment with lace points on it.
Stormdragonbrisvagas That was the old thinking by English speakers (myself included) for many years. French historians have always traced the etymology of the French word pourpoint to the Latin prepunctus or perpunctus (pierced, or pierced through). It's finally making its way to the rest of us thanks to people like independent scholar Tasha Kelly who had the opportunity to handle and study the *'Pourpoint'* of Charles VI in France. Most importantly is that the pourpoint of Charles VI is a garment that is quilted and padded, but is not for pointing anything, and it's intended to be worn *over* armor.
It is now being accepted that a pourpoint is simply a quilted / padded garment (as it is the quilting that makes it 'pierced' or 'pierced through'), not something used specifically 'for pointing.' In the context of historical sources, it makes much more sense. Otherwise a non-quilted doublet used for pointing should be a 'pourpoint' but it's not. And a quilted garment without points on it should *not* be a pourpoint, but it is (see the Charles VI example). Only we modern re-enactors, especially English speaking modern re-enactors were still guilty of confusing the terms by applying it to modern garments and simply calling them a 'pourpoint' because of our misunderstanding. It's going to take a long time to shift the thinking on this but it's important that we do.
I never took it from a reenactor perspective - I took it simply from the French meaning. I must admit I am no linguist but I am not convinced either way... I have seen plenty of stuff on 14thC armour from academics that is just utter crap - I DO love your work on the gurdle thing however!!!
ps- I work with too many academics (publishing) to automatically trust anything they say!!! They try to fit things in to neat evolutionary structures that just don't cut it when you look at the sources.
Not saying they are wrong in this case - Just that I would need to read more and think about it...
+Stormdragonbrisvagas I saw something today that made me think of this conversation. A translation from Le Pèlerinage de la Vie Humaine (1331) - "Because the gambeson is made with many prickings, that is why it is also called a pourpoint. It is understood that a gambeson with many prickings is worth a lot, but one without these prickings is worth nothing."
It's important to note that the only characteristic it associates with qualifying the gambeson as a 'pourpoint' specifically is its 'prickings' which would be quilting stitches. In context, historical sources use the term pourpoint to distinguish a quilted upper body garment.
A good modern article that includes the etymology can be found here (cottesimple.com/articles/martial-beauty/). It also discusses the creation of the first Pourpointier Guild in Paris, 1323.
Because the gambeson is made with many prickings, that is why it is also called a pourpoint. It is understood that a gambeson with many prickings is worth a lot, but one without these prickings is worth nothing." AH now THAT is starting to make sense now!!! Thanks!
BTW what are your thoughts on pointing arms/shoulders when mail is worn? I have always used the mail but tight flat mail could and does make this VERY hard and can cut the point. My guess is that for earlier - the shoulder and maybe even the arm armour is commong off the actualy body armour as in the spade shapped plates on some of the Visby coats of plates - But have you got anything specific on this?
How is the Town mentiont at about 4:40 spelled?
+Nighti88 Göttingen, ca. 1401
+Knyght Errant Thank you. I was not sure, if i transferred the english pronunciation proper to german. Do you have a specific source at hand? It is very nice, your channel is not yet so over crowded, so you can answer to that many questions here. You are making good Videos. Keep on.
+Nighti88 Thanks. Yes it's kind of a double-edged sword isn't it. I of course want the channel to grow, but I know if it gets big I will never be able to answer all the questions I get!
Hopefully this link works for you, if not do a google books search for "lendener 1401" and it should pop up
books.google.com/books?id=GkIKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA96&dq=lendener+1401&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAGoVChMIjYGAxNroyAIVyhs-Ch3JVAIY#v=onepage&q=lendener%201401&f=false
+Knyght Errant Yes, a double-edged sword it is. Of course i wish your channel to grow. RUclips isn't the best platform for communication at all, so why keep it small for that reason.
I can't read in the book, but now i know the title and stuff to find it in the library.
+Nighti88 old comment I know, but you might be interested in the sources here:
knyghterrant.com/index.php/2016/04/06/historical-sources-for-the-arming-girdle-lendenier-with-commentary/
Ian ,what were the women wearing as girdles in the contemporary period ?
I don't think it's a far leap of the imagination to make the assumption they were constructed and used the same way.
For woman to support thier dresses and men their leg harness.
Update?
Ian is a man who knows his shit
Leg armor is, what we call in Brazil, is the "catiço"
Im curious did they wear diapers? You can shit yourself until you strip all that equipment
Going to the bathroom in armor - ruclips.net/video/40P8bqA0eHg/видео.html
849 likes and 0 dislikes.
honey nut 870 likes now.
Kyle Klein Fuck you.
honey nut why? I'm just stating a fact.
А - БЕ ! ЗАЩО ? ? ?
НИ обяснява и разяснява ЕВРОПЕЙСКАТА история, която той и неговият народ
никога не са имали ! ! !
Are you under the impression that Americans just sprang out of the ground?