Epicureanism Vs Stoicism | Overview and Explanation
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- Опубликовано: 22 май 2024
- Epicureanism began around the same time as Stoicism but is frequently dismissed by prominent Stoics such as Epictetus. This video examines the differences in theory and practice.
(Correction: At 3:30 I said the Stoics were opposed to divination, this is not correct, they did in fact incorporate it into their metaphysics)
0:00 - Start
0:21 - Intro
1:28 - High level overview
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4:20 - History
6:48 - Epicurus' other works
8:32 - Types of pleasure
10:28 - Types of desire
15:53 - Religion, death & society
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19:37 - Recap
22:40 - Takeaways for Stoics
24:48 - Takeaways for Epicureans
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#Epicureanism #Stoicism
Correction: At 3:30 I said the Stoics were opposed to divination, this is not correct, they did in fact incorporate it into their metaphysics
27:30 - This is actually from the letter to Maria Cosway, 12 Oct 1786
Timings
0:21 - Intro
1:28 - High level overview
4:20 - History
6:48 - Epicurus' other works
8:32 - Types of pleasure
10:28 - Types of desire
15:53 - Religion, death & society
19:37 - Recap
22:40 - Takeaways for Stoics
24:48 - Takeaways for Epicureans
Really looking forward to Musonius Rufus video. He is largely overlooked by a lot of modern Stoics.
Thank you Robin this is another fantastic piece full of wisdom and clarity.
Looking forward to it
Glad to see you back. Hope you have weathered this as well as can be hoped.
More Epictetus?? 🥰🥰🥰
removing sources of pain before seeking new pleasures (I.e. using pleasures to avoid pain) is such an important piece of lore.
I always consider myself to be more of a stoic since I always head negative criticisms of the epicureans but this is the first rundown of what was actually believed by them. I'm starting to myself more in line with epicureanism now. It's quite remarkable that I had never heard this. Thank you.
Ultimately it's best to take what's best and most applicable to you and go with it.
I agree.
Epicureanism is simply the most perfect philosophy in the history of mankind and will continue to be through the centuries.
Perfect how?
Neither Stoicism nor Epicureanism are perfect philosophies, but both can teach us valuable lessons.
When discussing happiness, modern psychologists often distinguish between hedonic happiness (the result of experiencing pleasure) and eudaimonic happiness (the result of living a good life).
I find this distinction reminiscent of the Epicurean focus on simple pleasures versus the Stoic focus on virtue. I think that we should aim for some kind of balance between the two.
Psychologists have also determined that happier people tend to be more altruistic (ergo more virtuous), and if the pursuit of pleasure (in moderation) increases overall happiness, then perhaps the Stoics were mistaken to consider pleasure an absolute indifferent.
On the subject of whether it is better to withdraw from society like an Epicurean or engage with it like a Stoic, I think this is perhaps something that varies between individuals. Different people have different abilities and temperaments, some of which may be better suited to civic duties than others. Some people, such as artists and intellectuals, have historically been more beneficial to society by choosing to exist outside of it.
I think it would be contextual too depending on your current situation.
I don’t think you’re right on that the stoics were absolute indifferent to some moderate pleasure. The stoics had what is called preferred indifferent stuff and not preferred indifferent stuff. For example according to the stoics it would be nice to have lots of money but you shouldn’t get too attached to it and praise it over the virtues. However, something like death while still being indifferent to the stoics was an unpreffered indifference as being alive is stil better than being dead.
@@entertainmentbuzz944 You're right, I don't think I phrased that too well. I know that many indifferents are preferred, but what I meant was that the Stoics regarded them as completely indifferent with regard to one's virtue; in other words, you don't require any of the indifferents in order to live a good life. I'm not sure that I completely agree with that.
@@johngarbutt2857 oh, i see. So are you saying that you don’t agree that to live a good life is to live virtuously or are you saying that you dislike the idea of living only virtuously and not having any materialistic possessions? Cause if it’s the latter it seems like you don’t like cynicism not stoicism.
@@entertainmentbuzz944 I think it's more that I agree with Stoicism for the most part. But the idea that material things are completely indifferent with regards to virtue; unless I've misinterpreted something here, the logical conclusion to that seems to be that a person could live their entire life in torture and poverty but, so long as they endured it courageously, still be said to live a good life. I find that a little hard to swallow.
"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."
Marcus Aurelius
I think he's a bit agnostic as well like epicureanists. I personally think like that too
Marcus Aurelius did not say this. It is often misattributed to him.
No to my knowledge he didn't. To be fair though I think it's a paraphrasing of Book 2 part XI:
"You could leave life right now. Let that determine what
you do and say and think. If the gods exist, then to abandon human beings is not frightening; the gods would never subject you to harm. And if they don’t exist, or don’t care what happens to us, what would be the point of living in a world without gods or Providence?"
But just to be clear, the very next line is:
"But they (gods) do exist, they do care
what happens to us, and everything a person needs to avoid real harm they have placed within him."
@@VoxStoica interesting really
As an (self proclaimed) Epicurean I think this video brings the differences very good to the point.
I have learned many useful things from both the stoics and the Epicureans.
I like to think of all philosophies as a kind of "toolkit".
All of them have their own virtues and vices.
There is no "one right way to follow" but countless ideas to be explored.
Any though should be both entertained and challenged, to bring us closer to our true inner self and deepen our understanding of ourselves and the world around us.
To all you stoics out there, I highly recommend the "Hagakure" to you.
It also has great overlap in many areas with stoicism and might hold some pieces of value for you.
Asgrimm Bernardson, I feel the same. All schools and religions, in fact, say the same stuff - they just propose different solutions in response to our nature. Do you agree?
@@irenashiloh8808 hello there.
I think the idea that all religions and all schools of thought essentially say the same things is very reductive.
While there is most certainly a lot of common ground in the human experience, people are different and see the world radically different from each other.
I study philosophy to expand my mind beyond its own biases and misconceptions.
I try to entertain every new idea on its own terms.
The more I understand, the more I return to thoughts I found disagreeable before.
Some change with new knowledge, with some my opposition to these thoughts becomes more explainable.
The difference in thoughts itself is one of the greatest advantages I found in philosophy.
I do not like the idea of reducing it into sameness.
I appreciate you respecting differences between us. I feel like I am much more a Stoic, but I definitely took away some useful things from Epicureanism. I will check out what you suggested!
I worship at the shrine of Epicurus. A sage for the ages, one of the wisest men to have ever lived! Fantastic video, very succinct and informative!
thanks, this was absolutely one of the fascinating talks on Epicureanism and Stoicism. It's worth listening time after time.
Yea because virtue leads to pleasure, virtue is pursued because the virtuous life is pleasant, virtue is not the end in itself but the pleasure we derive from it. The most ascetic life is pleasant to he that pursues it.
I listened to your reading of the Meditations before any of your other videos, so now in my head it feels like Marcus Aurelius is teaching me about Epicureanism!
lol ditto!
You make a vital point at the beginning - it is indeed astounding how the stereotypical dictionary /colliquial definition of Epicurianism has misrepresented that body philosophy..I only discovered this myself when reading Lucretius. Thankyou.
These are the philosophy's you should start learning around 8 to 10 years old, I'm 62 but I'm grateful to start learning now.
Thank you for this introduction to Epicureanism. This has widened my understanding of that philosophy. I had the impression that Epicureanism was just some sort of Bacchanalian pleasure seeking attitude. Now I know better. Excellent presentation.
Based on what little I knew about Epicureanism I had thus far avoided pursing it, this video completely shifted my perspective and has allowed me appreciate the philosophy. Great work!
Coming to the party late, but these are really impressive videos. The exposition of Epicureanism here is clear, concise and scrupulously fair. A really professional job.
Do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not; remember that what you have was once among the things you only hoped for. ~ Epicurus.
It is rare that I make it all the way through a philosophy video, as many seem pretentious and rather boring but this one is an exception. This is well-produced and interesting video. The imagery is beautiful and compliments the content.
Thank you for taking a balanced perspective to your analysis. Such nuance is often lost when people pursue ideological extremes, and your analysis of the subjects of Epicureanism and Stoicism was very informative and helpful. I often think that happiness is a dialectic between delaying gratification for better tomorrow, and enjoying the blessings of today. Sometimes you need to put your nose to the grindstone and work, and other times it is best to bask in the sunlight and take a nap. Anyone who pursues either to an extreme will have a very stunted life.
Oh my Natural Law, my prayers have been answered
Firstly, WELCOME BACK!
I saw an ad before this video, glad they remonetized your channel again.
Your channel must really have helped people during these tough times of COVID. After your second book of DIscourses, you suddenly went away, I thought your morale must also be down due to COVID and channel being demonetized. Glad you came back for me you are the voice of Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, and so on.
Just keep on making such videos we are with you!
Thank you. Don't worry though, I wasn't demoralized, it's just my apartment was too small to record in with other housemates about during lockdown, so I took a break :)
@@VoxStoica Excited to see lots of Stoicism again! :))
I am thankful to have come upon your channel. Please keep doung what you do. These videos have incredible value.
Many thanks Robin. Probably the best of many videos I've seen this week. Takes me back to my visit last year to the stoai around the Agora.
Watched. Made notes. Hoping to absorb more of these principles in my life. Thank you & welcome back!
Again thanks for this excellent video and talk.
I’m pretty much an Epicurean but I find stoicism really interesting and helpful.
Whilst Epicurus himself didn’t marry and have children and we don’t know if he had sexual relationships, I personally am married and have a family which bring me much joy overall. But that’s was a thought out choice rather than social pressure.
I think that Epicurus’s suspicion of political and public life are perhaps partly due to the times he lived in and perhaps because politics is often being about personal ambitions. Myself I’m a member of a political party, I vote and have been in involved in activism and campaigns.
My Epicurean practice is about simple living, simple pleasures and valuing my relationships, kindness and gratitude,
I also practice the virtues to the best of my ability, that’s because I value myself and other people rights to be treated well and with honesty.
I think that modern society searches for happiness in consumerism and social status which is a long way from the teaching of the Garden.
Both have their place for sure. I think there's a time to be stoic and a time to be more epicurean and it really depends on the individual and the circumstances. Stoicism is especially helpful when you find yourself in a situation where you really do need to push through hard times to achieve something and epicureanism is honestly a great model for living a happy and peaceful life in general. I think the latter has a bit more applicability today, but both have their virtues.
Who would have thought no more easily had Epicurus been forgotten and perverted by his fellow scholars and contemporaries that he would make a whispering and modest return to claim his wondrous virtue and experiment again for the 21st Century.
Truly fantastic, I loathe commenting on videos but here I feel a sense of peace. Thank you for your dedication Vox, I've learned much from what you've shared!
Love that there are many Epicurus and Lucretius fans here
Such a nice topic , thank you for uploading this and welcome back !
Thank you Robin for the immense value you have added to my lock down hours. I have listened to all your audiobooks and have found going back to philosophy extremely enriching and life changing. I also forward them to my three kids at Uni to help them in the paths. Can't thank you enough!
An excellent and informative assessment of the respective merits of Epicureanism and Stoicism. Thank you for posting.
Robin, listening to you for the past two years equipped me to deal with the last 9 months without any real difficulty. I offer you my sincerest thanks and gratitude.
Nice topic. Definitely a lot discussion on the field about this. Looking forward to view it.
This was a really well thought out video. I learned a lot! Thank you!
Excellent video, I've checked several videos on Epicureanism, noone but mentioned aponia and ataraxia which are crucial to their philosophy. Job well done, sir!
Your video could not have been more timely for me: I spent the week-end reading De rerum naturae! Wonderful work (literally, because it is filled with a sense of wonder). I am finding many practical similarities also between epicureanism and buddhism, including the importance of friendship which the Buddha said is the whole of the holy life. On the theoretical level there are many differences (rebirth is central to early buddhist texts whereas epicureans made fun of the concept), but I liked your approach of underlining the similarities between stoicism and epicureanism when it comes to the question of living a good life, and I think a similar point can be made about epicureanism and buddhism.
Thank you for your excellent videos :-)
Welcome back Robin -I am pleased to hear your voice again .
What a great video. Thanks for all the effort and knowledge put into it.
Its simple,
At work: An extreme stoic cynicism approach
Life outside work: light hearted epicurean eastern approach
Found you yesterday and thought its a shame you didn't upload anymore... Very pleasant surprise, keep up the good work
This video is very well put together. Thank you
Loved it. Not only was this very informative, but it was very well structured and included some practical insights. I must say, that while I would prefer to be a stoic (as, in my opinion, it’s actually a much simpler life journey for those who can truly believe), my rational self is leading me to becoming more epicurean in my attitudes about how I might best live the remainder of my life.
This was a great format as well as engaging content. Thanks for your work, man.
Brilliant work Robin. You are a great teacher. Love your videos
Fantastically well-written, and really informative video. Keep it up!
Thankyou! This was especially helpful as I am currently undergoing a practise of Epicureanism for a practical philosophy course.
There is no absolute when comparing both. But lots of precious takeaways. Thank you for sharing.
Now I want to find out more about Epicureanism.
Thank you so much for this amazing work! It's very appreciated.
Thank you for opening my eyes to another idea of philosophy. I was unaware of its entirety. Interesting.
Thank you very much for this video. It clarifies the differences between these two schools, it makes their teachings comprehensible in a direct and clear way. This is perhaps the most important video on the subject!
Great to see you back Robin....looking forward to more Seneca letters 😎
Great Job man, I've been listening to your audio books here on your channel for a month now. You should keep doing this and please focus on philosophy only. Thank you.
Thank you for such a wonderful presentation. As someone who is heading down the path of “Elder Years”, wow still stunned at this. Anyhow, as such I’ve found myself pursuing knowledge in the areas of western philosophy and thoroughly enjoying the adventure as well as the wisdom imparted. I find it interesting, given the ability to digest such things, that people would’ve then or now so fully subscribed to one over the other with the sense of “this is right and where I will spend my time”. I shared with a friend recently that my four legged stool was held up by Stoicism, Existentialism, Epicureanism and lastly but certainly not the least, Absurdism. I find that at the right time and in the right circumstance, one or more contain exactly the answer(s) I’m looking for to either choose a path forward or to simply digest that with which I’m confronted with so that I may move on to the next thing. Elements of each, are just as valuable to me as the whole. I find above everything at this stage, seeking the truth is more important to me than bathing in religious obscurity or choosing the right thing based upon a belief in reward or punishment dolled out by this or that God. The ten commandments should serve everyone well for the simple reason that breaking them results typically in pain. That pain, far endures the fleeting pleasure of such thing that were committed should in and of itself be enough to warn us against such things. Thank you for your work. I find it immensely enjoyable and enlightening.
So glad you made more content.
Wonderful video. Thank you for the effort of putting this together
thanks fo mr the great work, I am following all your videos. Your work is very valuable and worth the time you are spending!
this was an incredibly well written video! thank you so so much!!
Beautiful and informative. Thank you.
thank you for this video. enhancing stoicism with some ideas of epicurianism is a great idea
Amazing overview. Thank you!
Please do more on epicurenaism I've never heard it described like this before and what you're saying sounds far more accurate and makes sense.
How enlightening and entertaining. I appreciate the respectful way this was presented friend, I wish you much love and harmony and to be clear with the collapse of the wave function and placed intent that manifests such things in our world. When I say i wish you much love i mean the vibrational harmony that it is not the emotional addiction we perceive it to be. Om So Hum
Great work Robin, I hope to see more of these in depth videos. Although I shouldn't "hope" for something because it brings about the fear of it not coming through. Something I learned in Seneca's book Letter's to Lucillius yesterday. I bought a 1980 Dutch translation of it last week. It has all 124 letters. Most books have only a selection. I vowed to read a letter a day for as long as i can. That way I'll read his book about 3 times a year which will greatly help me soak up and implement his great knowledge.
This was an absoutely brilliant video.
Your voice + philosophy = 👍🤘💖 this was a good video in recognition of Epicurus which I'm not too familiar with but I did notice the hedonistic utilitarian forerunner at the front of your lecture - first thought I had when you brought in the topic of pleasure. It would be neat to see a video on the types of utilitarianism as many people think utility literally is just a selfish hedonism toward getting what one wants, completely evading the "for greater good" primary concept. Anyway awesome video, I learned something new and found a new point to put on my philosophical map.
This was a question I have been asking myself for awhile it's great to see this topic brought up! Also first!
Same
Good video and more to come. A pleasant surprise before Thanksgiving.
welcome back Robin
There is no all-encompassing philosophy. Every philosophy out there has some truth in it. One should explore them with this in mind and and come up with their own life philosophy. 💟
well done! thank you so much for making the video
You have the perfect voice for the material you read
Excellent exposition.
Thank you Robin. Much appreciated
Well done !
Pleasing !
Thank you.
Excellent video, i learned a lot. Thank you.
amazing breakdown of epicureanism and stoicism
The attitude to death is comforting. It's often said we need to say 'goodbye' to loved ones who are going to die. But why let death and separation spoil their last days or moments of life? They won't know when they're no longer with us.
An interesting world view, although it is very against my own ideals which coincide more towards stoicism than anything else.
I appreciate how it outlines types of desires to follow and not follow however
Shut up you're cute af
i really enjoyed this, I am much clearer on the difference. I feel that after a life working in the caring sectors, in which stoicism was useful, my retirement life is a time where epicurean ideas are coming to the fore.
Existentialism and Stoicism have been enough for me. Very grateful to all people who produced these amazing philosophies
I am definitely Epicurean. But this is informed by a background in psychology as well as philosophy, and in particular the science of epigenetics and child development.
That was a very good video. Thanks for putting it together.
Fantastic. I would like to listen to it time and again.
I would request the presenter if he could explain for me the basics of " the critique of pure reason".
This is a GREAT video. Thanks.
Simply fantastic.
Outstandingly well-researched and beautifully composed. Both Epicureans and Stoics have been grossly misrepresented over the millennia. It’s good to see the misinformation corrected in the public informational space.
Nice! Finally back🙂👍🏼
Exceptional enlightening talk, asks more questions of oneself. The dichotomy of theory vs practice in the two ideas would suggest that in modern life we here are more E than stoic but like to hope we are more Stoic (or not hope in true essence of stoism) Removing the religious element. Capitalism leans more towards E without being either tbh.
My key take away point is to focus on removal of pain to gain the net benefit of joy and balance. Thank you for this.
Excellent teaching thank you
Great Video. Thank you!
I think life dictates us to be both a stoic and an epicurean at the same time
Nice work. Thanks.
Superb video. Many thanks for this.
Well done comparison.
YES!! this is what I've thought for years, but wasn't able to put into words :)
Great video!
Great video and well narrated. Robin how are you finding stoicism is helping you during the covid lockdown?
Really superb and helpful summary. Maximas gratias tibi ago, magister!!
Great video, thanks a lot!