There is evidence that Persephone was an underworld goddess before she was ever a nature goddess, referred to as "Despoina", or "the Queen", so as to avoid using her real name. She's definitely a chthonic deity to a greater degree than she is a nature deity, since MOST of that is Demeter's job, anyway.
I wish more people were aware of this, but most only reach far enough back to confirm their agenda, I like that OSP went as far back as possible to be able to give as much context and information as possible
Red from Overly Sarcastic Productions did a similar deep dive into Persephone and she found that her origins and myths are far older then that of Hades. While Hades is a god from the classic era, Persephone is a goddess from the bronze age, and could possibly be one of the original rulers of the underworld Great video as always guys!
The first part of her name is thought to be cognates with the word Persis, which refers to a woman from Persia, with references to the the nymph Perse and the hero Perseus. Or it could be the Ancient Greek word for destroy, "pertho".
The only silver lining for Persephone is that Hades stayed loyal to her despite being a king of his own realm, and the two being together for only 3-6 months in a year
@@DeltaOdyssey Minthe happened during the marriage i believe. Leuce jumps between before the marriage or during the marriage. compared to his brothers, Hades has a fairly decent track record
Persephone is always such a fascinating subject because it really has so many layers on autonomy, patriarchal customs, and of course the dynamics of love. Really fun illustrations and storytelling as always!
What about parallels in the Bible? In the book of Revelation, Satan is abducted from the heavens and taken against his will to a particular place in Hell ruled by an angel that the KJV says is named "Hades." He's also called Abaddon. At a certain point, the Bible says Satan is released for a "little season," Just as Persephone and Adonis were.
@@eoincampbell1584 this is not reading Red's theories as facts, this is seeing a channel doing a more in-depht analysis with the support of archeological documentation and pitching against a sub-par "woke" video. I usually love Dr Z's work (I don't know how many times I've re-watched her Mothman video) but this one was lazy. She choose a particular line of narrative and dismissed all of the others as "yeah, some version may be saying that" which is an absolute crime with mythologies that predate written transcriptions and give us many equally valid versions of the same myth. This video was obviously cashing on the whole "big bad Hades" spiel and failed to treat as equally important literature all the versions of the myth where Persephone actually desires to stay in the Underworld, where they are a loving couple, where the bride is treated as important as the groom. Dr Z usually does a stellar job with these videos but this... this one was just bad...
@@brotquel1592 Dude she literally did talk about how in many versions they are a loving couple and how in almost all interpretations Persephone becomes Hades' equal as queen of the underworld. But in every single version other than modern ones (which were also mentioned) the kidnapping *is* kidnapping, full stop. Persephone was not expecting it and Demeter objects heavily to it. It would be academically dishonest not to acknowledge that sexual violence which is core to the myth. If you want to see a video which really does play up the Hades as villain angle there's TedEd's recent one where they literally animated him as this cackling scheming cartoon and it's ridiculous. This video does not do that, it provides all interpretations.
@@eoincampbell1584 well the ancient word for it has been taken a different connotation. But yes he did kidnap her but it was because her father said so. And in Ancient Greece as far as I remember that’s all that was needed because women didn’t have rights remember?
Glad you mentioned how all versions of Persephone’s versions were taken without consent. Regardless of how in-love she was with Hades in some myths, taking someone without consent is never ok.
@@kelseylundry7981 No, Zeus giving Hades permission to kidnap Persephone is not consent in the slightest. That’s not how consent works. Consent cannot be given on another person’s behalf in any situation. The only scenario that would be consensual and acceptable is if Persephone herself gave Hades permission to take her.
@@kelseylundry7981 consent from Zeus really isn't consent. The whole kidnapping a woman to be your wife thing is rampant in Greek Mythology. I do try consider that the mores of the time were not the same as now and keep that in context, but I think it's valid to also compare and contrast the two.
@@kelseylundry7981 I wasn't the OP, but yeah I am aware of her older and probably more terrifying beginnings. :-) As well as the fact that compared to most of the Greek romances it was pretty tame. There are plenty of cultures today that still value the patriarch's opinion more than anyone else in the family.
I adore Persephone, she’s one of my absolute favorite goddess in mythology and it was her story that made me fell in love with it in the first place as a child.
if you go off of the original hymn of demeter, both hecate and helios helped demeter find persephone and hades tricks her into eating the pomegranate seeds by saying she can return to her mother then brushes her lips with the pomegranate seed so she has consumed some of it and has to stay for some of the time, instead of being based on the number of seeds consumed. also theres a whole section of the myth in that text that sets up the eleusian mystery cult in the mythology by talking about a son of an important mortal who demeter tries to make into a god by placing him in the hearth to burn away his mortality and feeding him ambrosia but is interrupted by the boys mother, so he must remain mortal but demeter grants him her favor, and demeter reveals herself and forces eleusis to build a grand temple for her to divert her anger from them
Demeter's character after Kore's abduction reminds me of Parvati who later became Annapurna. Demeter reacted similarly to how Parvati reacted to Shiva.
When you think about it, it kinda makes sense that those two stories are similar. The Sanskrit language (and its descendants like Hindi) has the same origin as the Greek language: Proto-Indoeuropean. And since many of the gods of hinduism have similar names to greek god names, it can be inferred that both pantheons share a same old indoeuropean origin. It then makes sense that many of the stories share similar tropes, although most details are completely different. Just like the languages differenciated from one another and evolved over time, so did the myths!
Dang, Hindu mythology. Im familiar to it when I was a child, binge watching all adaptation of them like crazy, now I don't even remember anything anymore. Sad.
I learned in my college class that kore means maiden. It was a title. Not her name. Persephone was always her name. It means thresher of wheat. A name fitting for the daughter of Demeter. I've never heard the part with the nymph.
Your college professor is right, yet also the Greek word for “girl” is “kore” it is a word that can be translated with some variation. “Kore” also means “daughter”.
Also, death deities in Ancient Greece were usually given friendly titles because using their names could cause them to pay attention to you. And no one wants a death deity's attention
I like the variant of this myth where Hecate is the informant in question as it really enhances her role as a cthonic underworld god with her being the goddess of crossroads and magic who resides in the underworld
It's weird hearing Hades been spoken of in such a negative way. He's always one of the nicest ones, especially when it comes to his wife. Even the kidnapping was painted in a neutral light, one that was okay during the time.
Also lets not forget that ZEUS ARRANGED THE KIDNAPPING WITHOUT DEMETER'S CONSENT (even though Demeter was the one ACTUALLY took care of Persephone.)! I mean, it's still bad that Hades kidnapped her but Zeus actively encouraged him to do so without consenting the actual mother or even Persephone. From the way I see it, Hades probably wouldn't have kidnapped her if Zeus hadn't let him. Up until that point Hades was just admiring Persephone from afar. So I feel like Zeus was the real villain in the story. Also, Hades and Persephone are the most loyal couple in greek mythology out of the other gods.
@@autisticdancer Yeah, Hades probably thought it was ok since he had permission from her father and the King, but he still didn't stop to ask whether Persephone or her mother were ok with, or even aware of, the arrangement. Maybe he assumed they were, but regardless of intentions, what happened was not ok
@@moongirl786 Yeah. I'm definitely not saying that Hades kidnapping Persephone was okay, because that wasn't and is NEVER okay. But I don't think Hades would have kidnapped her if Zeus didn't give him permission.
@@autisticdancer Hades was a very lawful character. He wasn't rebellious. If Zeus hadn't given permission, Hades would have either tried to convince him harder or tried to think of another way that was lawful.
@@autisticdancer Hades is literaly the older brother of Zeus, how is Zeus able to make his head? Hahaha, Hades is a god with thousands of years old, there is no way he dont have his part of the blame here.
I think one of the main reason why i am fascinated with persephone is how she shows the duality women can wield inside themself. Being both zhe goddess of spring/resurrection depicted with flowers AND being the queen of the underworld. She can also be an image of resilience. Or a modern day interpretation of her managing her work life balance of working with her mother for nature, spring and then spending time with her hubby in hades lol
I know it's odd I think how people react like "OMG seriously?!? He's her uncle! it's just WRONG" but yet these same people apparently don't realize that Zeus and Hera are brother/sister despite being married, and Zeus is also Demeter's brother and actually if I recall correctly Zeus is actually the YOUNGEST of the original olympic gods. I've heard that Artemis at one point was romantically involved with her twin brother Apollo too. So yeah Incest was kind of a thing with the old Gods
Persephone may be one of the female characters in Greek mythology that has the most agency, yet the way she transformed Minthe into mint is still an honest reflection of female intrasexual competition under patriarchy. In the end, it is always easier to be a rebel, but difficult to be a revolutionary.
Idk I'd probably not appreciate having some thot try and steal my man away from me and get away with it. You don't need the patriarchy to put down flagrant audacity.
Oh good grief. Everything is the patriarchy’s fault. 🙄 sometimes a tree is just a tree. Women have always been competitive with or without men. Own it and stop shoving blame. 🙄
My favorite depiction of the myth has to be the Hades video game, especially since we actually get to see Persephone as a grown woman after everything has gone down. It also has my favorite depictions of the Greek gods in general, especially Demeter.
Persephone does not control life and death, her mother does. It is Demeter’s joy at her daughter’s return that causes spring, and the sorrow of Demeter without her daughter that brings the cold of winter. Persephone is forever a victim.
Ayyy, it's so awesome seeing Persephone getting more attention and love beyond her kidnapping from Hades; glad that Persephone's original name, Kore, was brought up, since it hardly ever comes up 🥰
I took Latin in high school and have been interested in Roman and Greek mythologies ever since. I had not heard the name Kore before (at least I don't remember it-i am getting pretty old haha). Thanks for the continued education!
You should read The Changing of The Gods. She helps Hades punish everyone for their misdeeds. You can find it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and Author House. All are available online only.
fun fact she had names before Kore if I recall correctly, back before hades was a thing(yeah myths of Persephone in one form or another predate Hades. she's truly ancient)
Love this channel. Persephone's story has always been super interesting to me, in part because of how open to interpretation many parts of it have always been. Hope you all do an episode on Astarte/Ishtar/Inanna one day!
I’m from Canada, so I’ve always wondered how’d they account for those random snowfalls in May with this story. Is it that Persephone had a fight with her mom and went back to the Underworld to calm down for a few days lol?
I really like how stories like Persephone and hades tell us just how different an ancient civilization was, and, in the same vain, how the social thinking evolves in a society.
In the Hymn to Demeter, the only complete telling of the story, the narrator emphasizes that it was Zeus who ordered the kidnapping, it being his right as her father to arrange her marriage. It's said repeatedly that Hades was not at fault, except possibly the pomegranate arils (the only copy of the Hymn is actually torn at that point so we don't know details of how the whole aril thing worked). Hades is described as the best husband Persephone could hope for. But when Hermes went to try to get Persephone back, they don't describe her as fighting or starving, just missing her mom. Before she leaves, Hades promises to be a good husband to her, and every other myth supports that - they're pretty much the only couple that don't cheat on each other and when someone tries to mess with one of them, the other's response is to defend them fiercely. Persephone also seems to have embraced her role as queen of the underworld, given that she's referred to as "Dread Persephone" and when Odysseus is tormented by ghosts in the underworld he assumes Persephone sent them, not Hades.
From what I have heard, it was the older versions that were the happiest, not the other way around. Persephone in the older versions loved Hades and being queen of the underworld, while later ones have Persephone being unhappy about it all. Persephone actually has a rich history as a goddess of the underworld from even before Greek mythology as we know it came to be, meanwhile Hades does not. He seemingly appears out of nowhere, meaning Persephone has a much longer history as an underwold deity than Hades does. Overly Sarcastic Productions have a great video about this: ruclips.net/video/Ac5ksZTvZN8/видео.html
This isn’t true - the oldest version is the Homeric Hymn to Demeter that very specifically describes Persephone’s distress, and the violence in the act of abduction. OSP’s video is incredibly problematic and in many places is flat out wrong (like in the Mycenaean-origin/Poseidon=Hades).
So I did some quick googling and I was able to find sources claiming differently than you do here. It's not unreasonable for people to have different interpretations of myths.
@@EllieMackinRoberts Red outright says that some the Mycenaean stuff were just theories of hers. And it is the Homeric Hymn she references when she says it started out happier than most people think, and describes it quite a bit differently than you do.
@@TheHornedKing Reading the Homeric Hymn, even in translation, you can see that it’s not true. Persephone does - at the very end - accept Hades as her husband (I’m not denying their marriage is legitimate - it is, by the standard of the day), but she’s very much not happy about it and she obviously feels violated. You only have to read the hymn to see that. I know it’s not YT, but I have a whole playlist on TikTok about this - and also wrote a monograph called Underworld Gods in Ancient Greek Religion.
I was introduced to Greek mythology when I was in grade school, and loved the stories. I knew on a very basic level the story of Persephone and Hades and why there is winter, then spring.
Makes me think about Inanna's Descent and the 7 gates. Only, it is her husband who ends up trapped in the underworld for half the year with Inanna's sister, Ereshkigal. Inanna went down there on purpose, also. She was not kidnapped or worse.
In one story while Persephone was resting in a meadow, Zeus (yes, her own father) in a form of a snake slithered into her womb, thus impregnating her and from this act Dionysus was born. Just in case you forgot that Greek mythology is weird.
Your version isn't weird enough. It wasn't Dionysos, it was Zagreus, who then got killed by titans and eaten. But then Athene got hold of his heart and brought it to Zeus, who then gave it to another woman he would sleep with, and that was Dionysos. And Zagreus' other remains fell into soil and became the first grapevines. Easy as that 😊
@@fermintenava5911 this myth is hinted at in the Hades game. Zues jokes about being Zag’s dad, and in another part Dionysus and Zagreus prank Orpheus by telling him they are actually the same person. And considering what happened the last time Orpheus didn’t listen to a god he basically believes everything he is told by them.
Whilst I love the whole Joseph Campbell appreciation of myth-making, etc, I can't help but be endlessly amused by the inescapable element of incest in all of the primitive stories & creation myths that still inform our precarious worldview. Uncle-husbands and grandmother-wives all the way down, in all the myths...
To be fair, Norse mythology has less of it than Greek/Roman and Egyptian (those are the three pantheons I'm most familiar with, so I can't speak for much beyond them) they have multiple trees, instead one tree that keeps reattached to itself like Greek mythology. Hence why I went with Greek mythology when I was told to calculate the inbreeding coefficient of a few gods as homework for my animal breeding class. We were told we could use whoever we wanted as long as we sent the family tree we used as a reference along with the number we got. It was a fun assignment, most of the Greek gods I calculated were about 30%
@@Amy_the_Lizard Yeah, there's not really any major instances I can recall of incest featuring in Norse mythology, as compared to Greek/Roman myth, where it runs rampant, and Egyptian myth, although that one's always weird because some of the Egyptian deities seem to be aspects of other deities, and it's weird and hard to keep sorted. There's also minimal incest in the pantheon of the Japanese kami, though there's all kinds of other insanity going on there (the stories about Susano'o, for instance: he caused his sister Amaterasu--the sun goddess--to hide in a cave and leave the world in darkness because his idea of celebrating a victory involved taking a dump on her palace floors, trashing her rice fields, and flaying her heavenly steed, then throwing its carcass at her loom. There's all kinds of crazy going on in that family). That said, I love the idea of using the Olympus family tree for a project on calculating inbreeding. Seems ideal.
Thank you for examining the nuanced history of this myth for us. I'm glad to learn the ways it has been a story of women reclaiming their power and agency throughout its evolution. With that in mind, I'm increasingly puzzled by the term "consent" as it is currently being used. Consent is a vitally important factor in all human relations, and I agree that it's a useful lens for measuring reciprocal respect and empowerment. Even so, it seems too tame in some contexts. Hades indeed took Kore without her consent, but more to the point, he took her *against her will*. "Consent" feels to me like a way to smooth over the fact that it was a conflict, one entity's will against another - nay, an entire community's will against a young woman and her mother. The women lost the initial fight, but ultimately balanced the scales and reasserted their wills through artful application of their power.
Scene of the crime my foot! Nobody in the story recognized Hades as committing a crime when he kidnapped Persephone because it was an arranged marriage.
Season two of Star Trek Picard is riffing on this right now, even using the names other than Persephone. This video definitely makes me see those themes more clearly
To be fair, he was not a good guy. He spent a lot of time raping women and/or setting them up to be raped. It's just that, in ancient Greek culture, that wasn't seen as such a bad thing. To them (and the Romans), his wife was seen as the bad guy for overreacting to him sleeping with everything that moved. Not that she gets a pass - she usually took her anger out on the victims.
Not even a reinterpretation in this case! The ancient authors (or at least all the ones I've heard of) go out of their way to emphasize that this one was 100% Zeus's fault. Hades filed all the appropriate paperwork, as it were. If Zeus fulfilled his paternal role properly, Hades would've either given up or attempted to woo her directly, Demeter notwithstanding. Given his drama-free reputation in contrast with pretty much the entire rest of the pantheon, probably the former.
@@twistedtachyon5877 True. And those aspects of his character were always there but in a lot of western retellings, Zeus was at least the lesser of two evils. I think some are now reconsidering that and probably about time! 🙂
As interesting as this was the version of the Hades/Persephone story that I read was that Hades was as much a victim as Persephone. On the day of the abduction Eros (Cupid in the Latin) fires an arrow which strikes Hades as he's out and this causes him to see and fall in love with Persephone before abducting her and leading to Demeter's search for her daughter before learning she's in the underworld. It's likely that since most Greek myths were mostly oral there's always some leeway with the interpretation of events within the same story
I would add the story of Pirithous who wants to kidnap Persephone as his wife because he deserves to marry a daughter of Zeus. As they traveled to the underworld and took a little rest, him and Theseus(who also kidnaps Helen btw) suddenly felt stiff until they realized the furies were holding them. After a while of waiting, Heracles appeared and helps Theseus escape, but when he tried to rescue Pirithous, the ground shook. Hades is a pretty good husband, never cheating(except the version where he cheats on Persephone with Minthe, but in most versions Persephone turn the girl into mint), and treats her with love. Even though the abduction kinda sucks and marrying your nephew is obviously not *okay* , he's atleast better than Zeus who marries his own sister-
I love that you’ve explored the agency of Persephone and the “dark” side of her myth that showed her as powerful and a force of nature, but I also want to ask, isn’t the trope of Persephone as a captured woman who warms to her captor, kind of an ancient male fantasy? The woman you can always have but can never REALLY have, and you love her for it? Feels like a tvtropes breakdown waiting to happen. I always wonder, who wrote down this myth? What made it so popular it was committed to pen and paper or um…cuneiform? However they wrote these things. (an extreme rarity in early cultures)?
I would have further elaborated on the periods you are talking about. It cas not really clear when u were talking about ancient greece myth and when u were refering to 1500AD onwards.
I liked "Persephone" by Allison Russell on Spotify 3 days ago and now one of my favorite mythology channels uploads a video on the myth! The Cult of Persephone grow stronger.
Persephone to Hades: You are the kindest thing that ever happened to me, even if that is not how our tale is told. When everyone else told me i was destined to be a forgotten nymph that nutured flowers and turn meadows gold, you saw that the ichor that resides in me demanded its own throne. You showed me how a love like ours can turn even the darkest, coldest realm into the happiest of homes. Learn.
“They call me evil. Villain. The Devil. But the joke is on them. For I don’t care what they call me. I don’t care what they think of me. I have a duty to fulfill, and such petty things can not detract me from responsibilities. All Gods have a duty to the world for we are bound to it and it’s people. But only *I* take it seriously. Only *I* don’t treat the world like my playground and the mortals as my playthings. I am firstborn of Kronos and eldest of the Olympians. Cheated out of my birthright by my own family, my own siblings! Yet I got the most important job of all, dispite no one knowing it. For in the hands of any of the lesser mature Gods I call my family, the dead would flood the world of the living. So let them spew their lies. Let them believe their falsehoods. It makes no difference nor matters not to me. After all…” *sly smirk* “All become my subjects eventually.” -Hades on Pop culture’s view of him. Also it’s believed that it was Persephone that was the feared one. Her epithets include “Dread Persephone” and “ The Pale Queen” among other metal titles. Heck as you even pointed out, even her name Persephone literally translates to “Harbinger of Doom/Destruction” which hints that she was the terrifying eldritch goddess of death, decay, and devastation itself.
I like it a lot! I was hoping to hear also some of the early Mycenaean versions of the goddesses and the myth as it's interesting to contemplate the rol of Persephone before Hades, but either way was a very nice vid and always a pleasure to hear Dr Z. For and interesting take on the mythology and some of the early Mycenaean religion I recommend the OPS video about Persephone and Hades
I loved all the gods beings in Hercules, they were entertaining. Still dysfunctional, but entertaining. Lore Olympus has been great about how so many of the gods are self centered, violent and dishonest. All of which can be found in the original stories.
"...they saw the ghastly figure of Hades..." (Uses illustration of a decidedly hot Hades) 🤣🤣 Seriously though, love the series. And I had a cat named Persephone.
Why is it that videos on Persephone (all myths mentioning her, not just the kidnapping 1) her role as both resurrectir & bringer of death (plagues, dusease) is glossed over? I'd like to hear more about that. The sources for that interest me.
A friend and one of my favorite authors, Benjanun Sriduankaew, is currently workshopping a retelling in which Hades is not a man, but a butch lesbian. That's literally all I know so far but, well, heck yeah. :D
I'm mildly surprised there was no mention of the recent video game, Hades. It's loaded with lore regarding this particular myth, and is in fact one of the most important parts of the story.
To be fair, it made up entirely new stories, it isn’t “lore”. That isn’t a bad thing, I thought it had a great and compelling story, but we mustn’t confuse it with actual myth and lore.
U might want to search deeper into Persephone's lore and role. Some texts revealed she was a cthonic goddess b4 the abduction. Plus u could've also said that they're role was highly functional in contrast to Zeus and Hera. Hades and Persephone were a functioning couple, with only having each of them cheating once; Persephone falling for Adonis and Hades with Minth (the Mint)
Despite the kidnapping and other bad things that happened, Hades and Persephone are one of the best couples in Greek mythology. I mean, compared to basically everyone else in the pantheon.
I learned that greek mythos is all over the place and with lots plot holes. OSP posted that Persephone and Demetri predated Hades, being adopted into the patheon from an another, older worship/mythology.
Just saying but the lack of consent wasnt what caused the ensuing Chaos since it isnt Kore who is causing it. Its Kores absence and the resulting wrath/depression of Demeter that brings about the calamity of everlasting winter.
Here's a theory, what if all the tales about zuez abandoning his children was to teach the people of the land not to mistreat orphans because they could incur the wrath of Zeus?
Why does everyone always equate the underworld with Hell? The underworld predates the concept of hell, if anything, it is recorded as the 'house of Hades', and even just Hades, being the name of the place and the god.
Apparently this is a bit of a modern misconception - it was in fact the opposite way around. Persephone wasn't in Hades during the winter, making the earth cold; she was in Hades during the _summer,_ causing hot draughts. Remember, this is Greece we're talking about, not northern Europe - their summers are hot and their winters are mild.
Zeus agreed to hades’ taking her which was a thing in Ancient Sparta when a man kidnapped a woman with her father’s consent and married her and kept her in some secret location until eventually bringing her and often her mother into his home. You can see many similarities.
I only say this bc the contemporary writers who created the myth weren’t portraying hades as a predator, but rather any other man asking or any other woman’s hand in marriage. The crime was that Zeus didn’t consult Demeter, not that Hades took Persephone. I believe the myth might indicate that, when choosing a husband for a daughter, it was important that both parents are pleased with the choice as the mother was more familiar with her daughter’s personality and knew what kind of a man she’d make a good wife to according to Ancient Greek societal standards. It’s very problematic if you look at it from our modern perspective as marriage being a consensual union of love, but this wasn’t the Ancient Greek concept of marriage. Because the mother didn’t give permission to the marriage, she never entered the husband’s home and Persephone doesn’t stay in Hades’ home permanently, reflecting the Ancient Greek marriage tradition. It’s impossible to understand the story of hades and Persephone without understanding how marriages began in Ancient Greece. It’s a disgusting practice, but it *was* practiced. In fact, the Greek art pose for marriage and abduction is the same pose
@@drpigglesnuudelworte5209 Spartiate marriages did function like a ritualistic abduction, yes, but as the _Homeric Hymn to Demeter_ provides an origin for the mystery rites of Eleusis which lies in the Attica region, a better understood is the story beats are reminiscent of Attic/Athenian wedding rituals specifically: indeed the groom would offer the bride a fruit, such as an apple or a pomegranate, and the bride would eat it to symbolize that she accepts him as her husband and her primary provider going forward (as opposed to her father), Persephone's consumption of the pomegranate as gifted to her by, you know, *her husband Aïdoneus* no doubt being a stand-in for this.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
There is evidence that Persephone was an underworld goddess before she was ever a nature goddess, referred to as "Despoina", or "the Queen", so as to avoid using her real name. She's definitely a chthonic deity to a greater degree than she is a nature deity, since MOST of that is Demeter's job, anyway.
The chanel OSP has an incredibly detailed analysis of this theory. An awesome lecture with better art. Defintely recomend.
@@ejsmith7626, haha, where do you think I got the information? I love OSP.
@@ActiveAdvocate1Yeah, I assumed that you might have read but I wanted and excuse to bring up the video.
@@ejsmith7626 OSP is fantastic
I wish more people were aware of this, but most only reach far enough back to confirm their agenda, I like that OSP went as far back as possible to be able to give as much context and information as possible
Red from Overly Sarcastic Productions did a similar deep dive into Persephone and she found that her origins and myths are far older then that of Hades. While Hades is a god from the classic era, Persephone is a goddess from the bronze age, and could possibly be one of the original rulers of the underworld
Great video as always guys!
Red's research about Persephone and Hades remains as one of my most favorite Perse videos ever. I love Red's deep dive.
@@Bleachshugo same. I love ALL her deep dive on anything, it always refreshing to give clear source from its root.
Ereshkigal: Let me introduce myself
The first part of her name is thought to be cognates with the word Persis, which refers to a woman from Persia, with references to the the nymph Perse and the hero Perseus. Or it could be the Ancient Greek word for destroy, "pertho".
Oh wow, really?! I need to go look that up!
The only silver lining for Persephone is that Hades stayed loyal to her despite being a king of his own realm, and the two being together for only 3-6 months in a year
Hades aint no himbo like his brothers, 👑 material
But she wasn’t exactly faithful to him, which is interesting.
@@russergee49 I only know of the Adonis fiasco with Aphrodite. Any other instances of Persephone acting like her father?
Yeah, "mostly" loyal, I think there was one or two instances where he cheated on her with a nymph.
@@DeltaOdyssey Minthe happened during the marriage i believe. Leuce jumps between before the marriage or during the marriage. compared to his brothers, Hades has a fairly decent track record
Persephone is always such a fascinating subject because it really has so many layers on autonomy, patriarchal customs, and of course the dynamics of love. Really fun illustrations and storytelling as always!
What about parallels in the Bible? In the book of Revelation, Satan is abducted from the heavens and taken against his will to a particular place in Hell ruled by an angel that the KJV says is named "Hades." He's also called Abaddon.
At a certain point, the Bible says Satan is released for a "little season," Just as Persephone and Adonis were.
Patriarchy is truly beautiful
Fun fact: Persephone's role as the underworld Queen probably predates Hades being a God at all.
I love OSP too but we need to stop quoting Red's theories as undisputed fact.
@@eoincampbell1584 I have heard this elsewhere as well. Persephone very likely does predate Hades
@@eoincampbell1584 this is not reading Red's theories as facts, this is seeing a channel doing a more in-depht analysis with the support of archeological documentation and pitching against a sub-par "woke" video.
I usually love Dr Z's work (I don't know how many times I've re-watched her Mothman video) but this one was lazy. She choose a particular line of narrative and dismissed all of the others as "yeah, some version may be saying that" which is an absolute crime with mythologies that predate written transcriptions and give us many equally valid versions of the same myth.
This video was obviously cashing on the whole "big bad Hades" spiel and failed to treat as equally important literature all the versions of the myth where Persephone actually desires to stay in the Underworld, where they are a loving couple, where the bride is treated as important as the groom.
Dr Z usually does a stellar job with these videos but this... this one was just bad...
@@brotquel1592 Dude she literally did talk about how in many versions they are a loving couple and how in almost all interpretations Persephone becomes Hades' equal as queen of the underworld.
But in every single version other than modern ones (which were also mentioned) the kidnapping *is* kidnapping, full stop. Persephone was not expecting it and Demeter objects heavily to it.
It would be academically dishonest not to acknowledge that sexual violence which is core to the myth.
If you want to see a video which really does play up the Hades as villain angle there's TedEd's recent one where they literally animated him as this cackling scheming cartoon and it's ridiculous.
This video does not do that, it provides all interpretations.
@@eoincampbell1584 well the ancient word for it has been taken a different connotation. But yes he did kidnap her but it was because her father said so. And in Ancient Greece as far as I remember that’s all that was needed because women didn’t have rights remember?
Glad you mentioned how all versions of Persephone’s versions were taken without consent. Regardless of how in-love she was with Hades in some myths, taking someone without consent is never ok.
For sure. The attitudes of classical Greeks about women, especially in Athens left a LOT to be desired.
HadesxPersephone shipper will rage on 😂
@@kelseylundry7981 No, Zeus giving Hades permission to kidnap Persephone is not consent in the slightest. That’s not how consent works. Consent cannot be given on another person’s behalf in any situation. The only scenario that would be consensual and acceptable is if Persephone herself gave Hades permission to take her.
@@kelseylundry7981 consent from Zeus really isn't consent. The whole kidnapping a woman to be your wife thing is rampant in Greek Mythology. I do try consider that the mores of the time were not the same as now and keep that in context, but I think it's valid to also compare and contrast the two.
@@kelseylundry7981 I wasn't the OP, but yeah I am aware of her older and probably more terrifying beginnings. :-) As well as the fact that compared to most of the Greek romances it was pretty tame. There are plenty of cultures today that still value the patriarch's opinion more than anyone else in the family.
I adore Persephone, she’s one of my absolute favorite goddess in mythology and it was her story that made me fell in love with it in the first place as a child.
if you go off of the original hymn of demeter, both hecate and helios helped demeter find persephone and hades tricks her into eating the pomegranate seeds by saying she can return to her mother then brushes her lips with the pomegranate seed so she has consumed some of it and has to stay for some of the time, instead of being based on the number of seeds consumed. also theres a whole section of the myth in that text that sets up the eleusian mystery cult in the mythology by talking about a son of an important mortal who demeter tries to make into a god by placing him in the hearth to burn away his mortality and feeding him ambrosia but is interrupted by the boys mother, so he must remain mortal but demeter grants him her favor, and demeter reveals herself and forces eleusis to build a grand temple for her to divert her anger from them
Demeter's character after Kore's abduction reminds me of Parvati who later became Annapurna. Demeter reacted similarly to how Parvati reacted to Shiva.
When you think about it, it kinda makes sense that those two stories are similar.
The Sanskrit language (and its descendants like Hindi) has the same origin as the Greek language: Proto-Indoeuropean. And since many of the gods of hinduism have similar names to greek god names, it can be inferred that both pantheons share a same old indoeuropean origin. It then makes sense that many of the stories share similar tropes, although most details are completely different.
Just like the languages differenciated from one another and evolved over time, so did the myths!
It's almost like all indo-european folklore descended from a single prehistoric and forgotten religion...
@@deithlan Kinda like how many mythologies feature a storm god killing a dragon
@@chickadeestevenson5440 Like a very long game of telephone...
Dang, Hindu mythology. Im familiar to it when I was a child, binge watching all adaptation of them like crazy, now I don't even remember anything anymore. Sad.
I learned in my college class that kore means maiden. It was a title. Not her name. Persephone was always her name. It means thresher of wheat. A name fitting for the daughter of Demeter. I've never heard the part with the nymph.
Your college professor is right, yet also the Greek word for “girl” is “kore” it is a word that can be translated with some variation. “Kore” also means “daughter”.
Also, death deities in Ancient Greece were usually given friendly titles because using their names could cause them to pay attention to you. And no one wants a death deity's attention
Perses mean destruction, so her name have that meaning to (of destroy, lay waste, death, etc)
The nymph Cyan is cited in Ovid Metamorphoses
I like the variant of this myth where Hecate is the informant in question as it really enhances her role as a cthonic underworld god with her being the goddess of crossroads and magic who resides in the underworld
It's weird hearing Hades been spoken of in such a negative way. He's always one of the nicest ones, especially when it comes to his wife. Even the kidnapping was painted in a neutral light, one that was okay during the time.
Also lets not forget that ZEUS ARRANGED THE KIDNAPPING WITHOUT DEMETER'S CONSENT (even though Demeter was the one ACTUALLY took care of Persephone.)! I mean, it's still bad that Hades kidnapped her but Zeus actively encouraged him to do so without consenting the actual mother or even Persephone. From the way I see it, Hades probably wouldn't have kidnapped her if Zeus hadn't let him. Up until that point Hades was just admiring Persephone from afar. So I feel like Zeus was the real villain in the story. Also, Hades and Persephone are the most loyal couple in greek mythology out of the other gods.
@@autisticdancer Yeah, Hades probably thought it was ok since he had permission from her father and the King, but he still didn't stop to ask whether Persephone or her mother were ok with, or even aware of, the arrangement. Maybe he assumed they were, but regardless of intentions, what happened was not ok
@@moongirl786 Yeah. I'm definitely not saying that Hades kidnapping Persephone was okay, because that wasn't and is NEVER okay. But I don't think Hades would have kidnapped her if Zeus didn't give him permission.
@@autisticdancer Hades was a very lawful character. He wasn't rebellious. If Zeus hadn't given permission, Hades would have either tried to convince him harder or tried to think of another way that was lawful.
@@autisticdancer Hades is literaly the older brother of Zeus, how is Zeus able to make his head? Hahaha, Hades is a god with thousands of years old, there is no way he dont have his part of the blame here.
I think one of the main reason why i am fascinated with persephone is how she shows the duality women can wield inside themself. Being both zhe goddess of spring/resurrection depicted with flowers AND being the queen of the underworld. She can also be an image of resilience. Or a modern day interpretation of her managing her work life balance of working with her mother for nature, spring and then spending time with her hubby in hades lol
i always find it ironic that hades being persephones uncle always comes up, when zeus' wife is his sister i think.
So is Demeter, who he had Persephone with
Yeah, the story of how zeus marries Hera is even more horrifying than this, and demeter is actually zeus' sister too, it's kinda fucked up ngl
I know it's odd I think how people react like "OMG seriously?!? He's her uncle! it's just WRONG" but yet these same people apparently don't realize that Zeus and Hera are brother/sister despite being married, and Zeus is also Demeter's brother and actually if I recall correctly Zeus is actually the YOUNGEST of the original olympic gods. I've heard that Artemis at one point was romantically involved with her twin brother Apollo too. So yeah Incest was kind of a thing with the old Gods
Yeah the Greek pantheon family tree is so absurd. If I remember right Zeus appears 3 separate times in Hercules family trees alone.
Persephone may be one of the female characters in Greek mythology that has the most agency, yet the way she transformed Minthe into mint is still an honest reflection of female intrasexual competition under patriarchy. In the end, it is always easier to be a rebel, but difficult to be a revolutionary.
Idk I'd probably not appreciate having some thot try and steal my man away from me and get away with it. You don't need the patriarchy to put down flagrant audacity.
Oh good grief. Everything is the patriarchy’s fault. 🙄 sometimes a tree is just a tree. Women have always been competitive with or without men. Own it and stop shoving blame. 🙄
…She tried to sleep with her husband. HOW ELSE ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO REACT?
Male agency and female submission is the true beauty of Earth
My favorite depiction of the myth has to be the Hades video game, especially since we actually get to see Persephone as a grown woman after everything has gone down. It also has my favorite depictions of the Greek gods in general, especially Demeter.
Persephone does not control life and death, her mother does. It is Demeter’s joy at her daughter’s return that causes spring, and the sorrow of Demeter without her daughter that brings the cold of winter. Persephone is forever a victim.
This is why she’s my special interest. Persephone is and always has been the driving force in my education, my art, my music, and everything.
Would you guys mind attaching source documents to your video descriptions? I enjoy your summaries and following your research process would be fun
The interpretation of Greek Mythology from the game Hades is my favorites.
The kid just wants time in the outside world and for his parents to get along. 😢
Ayyy, it's so awesome seeing Persephone getting more attention and love beyond her kidnapping from Hades; glad that Persephone's original name, Kore, was brought up, since it hardly ever comes up 🥰
I took Latin in high school and have been interested in Roman and Greek mythologies ever since. I had not heard the name Kore before (at least I don't remember it-i am getting pretty old haha). Thanks for the continued education!
You should read The Changing of The Gods. She helps Hades punish everyone for their misdeeds. You can find it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and Author House. All are available online only.
fun fact she had names before Kore if I recall correctly, back before hades was a thing(yeah myths of Persephone in one form or another predate Hades. she's truly ancient)
Kore is an epithet, not a different name - it literally means “girl”.
@@russergee49 yup because they were scared of her. In a "don't speak her name" sort of way.
Love this channel. Persephone's story has always been super interesting to me, in part because of how open to interpretation many parts of it have always been. Hope you all do an episode on Astarte/Ishtar/Inanna one day!
I’m from Canada, so I’ve always wondered how’d they account for those random snowfalls in May with this story.
Is it that Persephone had a fight with her mom and went back to the Underworld to calm down for a few days lol?
Haha!
Got mad and needed some ice cream.
Persephone is one of my favorite heroines in mythology, alongside Pandora.
oh no not that lady
I really like how stories like Persephone and hades tell us just how different an ancient civilization was, and, in the same vain, how the social thinking evolves in a society.
Not that different; many cultures are still like that.
Different?...
In the Hymn to Demeter, the only complete telling of the story, the narrator emphasizes that it was Zeus who ordered the kidnapping, it being his right as her father to arrange her marriage. It's said repeatedly that Hades was not at fault, except possibly the pomegranate arils (the only copy of the Hymn is actually torn at that point so we don't know details of how the whole aril thing worked). Hades is described as the best husband Persephone could hope for. But when Hermes went to try to get Persephone back, they don't describe her as fighting or starving, just missing her mom. Before she leaves, Hades promises to be a good husband to her, and every other myth supports that - they're pretty much the only couple that don't cheat on each other and when someone tries to mess with one of them, the other's response is to defend them fiercely.
Persephone also seems to have embraced her role as queen of the underworld, given that she's referred to as "Dread Persephone" and when Odysseus is tormented by ghosts in the underworld he assumes Persephone sent them, not Hades.
From what I have heard, it was the older versions that were the happiest, not the other way around. Persephone in the older versions loved Hades and being queen of the underworld, while later ones have Persephone being unhappy about it all. Persephone actually has a rich history as a goddess of the underworld from even before Greek mythology as we know it came to be, meanwhile Hades does not. He seemingly appears out of nowhere, meaning Persephone has a much longer history as an underwold deity than Hades does.
Overly Sarcastic Productions have a great video about this: ruclips.net/video/Ac5ksZTvZN8/видео.html
I was reading your post and was about to mention the OSP video, but you beat me to it.
This isn’t true - the oldest version is the Homeric Hymn to Demeter that very specifically describes Persephone’s distress, and the violence in the act of abduction.
OSP’s video is incredibly problematic and in many places is flat out wrong (like in the Mycenaean-origin/Poseidon=Hades).
So I did some quick googling and I was able to find sources claiming differently than you do here. It's not unreasonable for people to have different interpretations of myths.
@@EllieMackinRoberts Red outright says that some the Mycenaean stuff were just theories of hers. And it is the Homeric Hymn she references when she says it started out happier than most people think, and describes it quite a bit differently than you do.
@@TheHornedKing Reading the Homeric Hymn, even in translation, you can see that it’s not true. Persephone does - at the very end - accept Hades as her husband (I’m not denying their marriage is legitimate - it is, by the standard of the day), but she’s very much not happy about it and she obviously feels violated. You only have to read the hymn to see that.
I know it’s not YT, but I have a whole playlist on TikTok about this - and also wrote a monograph called Underworld Gods in Ancient Greek Religion.
I was introduced to Greek mythology when I was in grade school, and loved the stories. I knew on a very basic level the story of Persephone and Hades and why there is winter, then spring.
Makes me think about Inanna's Descent and the 7 gates. Only, it is her husband who ends up trapped in the underworld for half the year with Inanna's sister, Ereshkigal. Inanna went down there on purpose, also. She was not kidnapped or worse.
In one story while Persephone was resting in a meadow, Zeus (yes, her own father) in a form of a snake slithered into her womb, thus impregnating her and from this act Dionysus was born.
Just in case you forgot that Greek mythology is weird.
Your version isn't weird enough.
It wasn't Dionysos, it was Zagreus, who then got killed by titans and eaten. But then Athene got hold of his heart and brought it to Zeus, who then gave it to another woman he would sleep with, and that was Dionysos. And Zagreus' other remains fell into soil and became the first grapevines.
Easy as that 😊
@@fermintenava5911 nice, I didn't know this one.
@The Doctor um... everything?
@@fermintenava5911 this myth is hinted at in the Hades game. Zues jokes about being Zag’s dad, and in another part Dionysus and Zagreus prank Orpheus by telling him they are actually the same person. And considering what happened the last time Orpheus didn’t listen to a god he basically believes everything he is told by them.
Whilst I love the whole Joseph Campbell appreciation of myth-making, etc, I can't help but be endlessly amused by the inescapable element of incest in all of the primitive stories & creation myths that still inform our precarious worldview. Uncle-husbands and grandmother-wives all the way down, in all the myths...
To be fair, Norse mythology has less of it than Greek/Roman and Egyptian (those are the three pantheons I'm most familiar with, so I can't speak for much beyond them) they have multiple trees, instead one tree that keeps reattached to itself like Greek mythology. Hence why I went with Greek mythology when I was told to calculate the inbreeding coefficient of a few gods as homework for my animal breeding class. We were told we could use whoever we wanted as long as we sent the family tree we used as a reference along with the number we got. It was a fun assignment, most of the Greek gods I calculated were about 30%
@@Amy_the_Lizard Yeah, there's not really any major instances I can recall of incest featuring in Norse mythology, as compared to Greek/Roman myth, where it runs rampant, and Egyptian myth, although that one's always weird because some of the Egyptian deities seem to be aspects of other deities, and it's weird and hard to keep sorted. There's also minimal incest in the pantheon of the Japanese kami, though there's all kinds of other insanity going on there (the stories about Susano'o, for instance: he caused his sister Amaterasu--the sun goddess--to hide in a cave and leave the world in darkness because his idea of celebrating a victory involved taking a dump on her palace floors, trashing her rice fields, and flaying her heavenly steed, then throwing its carcass at her loom. There's all kinds of crazy going on in that family).
That said, I love the idea of using the Olympus family tree for a project on calculating inbreeding. Seems ideal.
Thank you for examining the nuanced history of this myth for us. I'm glad to learn the ways it has been a story of women reclaiming their power and agency throughout its evolution. With that in mind, I'm increasingly puzzled by the term "consent" as it is currently being used. Consent is a vitally important factor in all human relations, and I agree that it's a useful lens for measuring reciprocal respect and empowerment. Even so, it seems too tame in some contexts. Hades indeed took Kore without her consent, but more to the point, he took her *against her will*. "Consent" feels to me like a way to smooth over the fact that it was a conflict, one entity's will against another - nay, an entire community's will against a young woman and her mother. The women lost the initial fight, but ultimately balanced the scales and reasserted their wills through artful application of their power.
I took a Mythology class in high school. This is one of my favorite myths. Great job Dr. Z❤
Actually in many times of the myth It’s seen that the power dynamic between the two was equal and the hades often Tried to treat her well
Scene of the crime my foot! Nobody in the story recognized Hades as committing a crime when he kidnapped Persephone because it was an arranged marriage.
thank you for labeling the artwork with painting titles and artist names!
Season two of Star Trek Picard is riffing on this right now, even using the names other than Persephone. This video definitely makes me see those themes more clearly
How exciting your life must be if you spend your day walking through fields. She didn’t know it but she was just waiting for rock and roll.
I have always been obsessed with Persephone ♥️
Food stopped growing, but de Meter is still running.
love your channel, dr. z. and this is just another example why. wonderful episode! :)
This is a very specific, very niche recollection for this story's details.
It feels weird.
It's funny how Zeus is starting to be reinterpreted as the bad guy in almost every new imagination of the myths. Great video!
To be fair, he was not a good guy. He spent a lot of time raping women and/or setting them up to be raped. It's just that, in ancient Greek culture, that wasn't seen as such a bad thing. To them (and the Romans), his wife was seen as the bad guy for overreacting to him sleeping with everything that moved. Not that she gets a pass - she usually took her anger out on the victims.
Not even a reinterpretation in this case! The ancient authors (or at least all the ones I've heard of) go out of their way to emphasize that this one was 100% Zeus's fault. Hades filed all the appropriate paperwork, as it were. If Zeus fulfilled his paternal role properly, Hades would've either given up or attempted to woo her directly, Demeter notwithstanding. Given his drama-free reputation in contrast with pretty much the entire rest of the pantheon, probably the former.
@@twistedtachyon5877 True. And those aspects of his character were always there but in a lot of western retellings, Zeus was at least the lesser of two evils. I think some are now reconsidering that and probably about time! 🙂
@@safaiaryu12 Greek mythology is about humans surviving terrible odds. Morality isn't high on their list of priorities, lol.
As interesting as this was the version of the Hades/Persephone story that I read was that Hades was as much a victim as Persephone. On the day of the abduction Eros (Cupid in the Latin) fires an arrow which strikes Hades as he's out and this causes him to see and fall in love with Persephone before abducting her and leading to Demeter's search for her daughter before learning she's in the underworld. It's likely that since most Greek myths were mostly oral there's always some leeway with the interpretation of events within the same story
How does Dr. Z find the time to make these wonderful videos AND lead the Legends Of Tomorrow?
8:17 - I am so happy to see that PBS mention Rachel Smythe, webtoon of Lore Olympus! 💙 Our sweet pink cinnamon bun is being recognized!!!
I would add the story of Pirithous who wants to kidnap Persephone as his wife because he deserves to marry a daughter of Zeus. As they traveled to the underworld and took a little rest, him and Theseus(who also kidnaps Helen btw) suddenly felt stiff until they realized the furies were holding them. After a while of waiting, Heracles appeared and helps Theseus escape, but when he tried to rescue Pirithous, the ground shook. Hades is a pretty good husband, never cheating(except the version where he cheats on Persephone with Minthe, but in most versions Persephone turn the girl into mint), and treats her with love. Even though the abduction kinda sucks and marrying your nephew is obviously not *okay* , he's atleast better than Zeus who marries his own sister-
Anticipated the Lore Olympus shoutout but you neglect to mention the Broadway show Hadestown.
Love that musical
I love that you’ve explored the agency of Persephone and the “dark” side of her myth that showed her as powerful and a force of nature, but I also want to ask, isn’t the trope of Persephone as a captured woman who warms to her captor, kind of an ancient male fantasy? The woman you can always have but can never REALLY have, and you love her for it? Feels like a tvtropes breakdown waiting to happen. I always wonder, who wrote down this myth? What made it so popular it was committed to pen and paper or um…cuneiform? However they wrote these things. (an extreme rarity in early cultures)?
I have always liked Persephone and Hades... Their roles and story, and different adaptations made me want to know more. Thanks Dr. Z!
I would have further elaborated on the periods you are talking about. It cas not really clear when u were talking about ancient greece myth and when u were refering to 1500AD onwards.
I liked "Persephone" by Allison Russell on Spotify 3 days ago and now one of my favorite mythology channels uploads a video on the myth! The Cult of Persephone grow stronger.
Love love love this. Thanks for this in-depth look into one of my favorites!
Persephone to Hades:
You are the kindest thing that ever happened to me, even if that is not how our tale is told.
When everyone else told me i was destined to be a forgotten nymph that nutured flowers and turn meadows gold,
you saw that the ichor that resides in me demanded its own throne. You showed me
how a love like ours can turn even the darkest, coldest realm into the happiest of homes.
Learn.
In most versions of her abduction, a large group of Persephone's close buddies (texts say "deep-bosomed") were in on it.
I liked Overly Sarcastic Productions’ take on Persephone better (longer and more in-depth analysis of the nuances and historical context).
yyeeeeeaaaahhhhh no offsed to Dr. Z but Overly Sarcastic Productions’ do know how to present the material (and learn how to do their resource too)
“They call me evil. Villain. The Devil. But the joke is on them. For I don’t care what they call me. I don’t care what they think of me. I have a duty to fulfill, and such petty things can not detract me from responsibilities.
All Gods have a duty to the world for we are bound to it and it’s people. But only *I* take it seriously. Only *I* don’t treat the world like my playground and the mortals as my playthings.
I am firstborn of Kronos and eldest of the Olympians. Cheated out of my birthright by my own family, my own siblings! Yet I got the most important job of all, dispite no one knowing it. For in the hands of any of the lesser mature Gods I call my family, the dead would flood the world of the living.
So let them spew their lies. Let them believe their falsehoods. It makes no difference nor matters not to me. After all…” *sly smirk* “All become my subjects eventually.”
-Hades on Pop culture’s view of him.
Also it’s believed that it was Persephone that was the feared one. Her epithets include “Dread Persephone” and “ The Pale Queen” among other metal titles. Heck as you even pointed out, even her name Persephone literally translates to “Harbinger of Doom/Destruction” which hints that she was the terrifying eldritch goddess of death, decay, and devastation itself.
O'MY GOODNESS, I LOVE Greek mythology!!!
Did I miss the link in the description for PBS Origins?
I love this channel ❤!
Only if someone had spoken to Hestia this all could had being solved so early like who doesn't listen to Hestia
Some tellings say that Hestia was the one who told Demeter of Persephone's kidnapping, so someone definitely listened to Hestia
@@EL-jq1sq
Afaik, Hestia doesn't feature in any of the tellings that survive from antiquity.
Loved it, as always! (There's no link in the description to the new PBS channel, btw.)
I like it a lot! I was hoping to hear also some of the early Mycenaean versions of the goddesses and the myth as it's interesting to contemplate the rol of Persephone before Hades, but either way was a very nice vid and always a pleasure to hear Dr Z.
For and interesting take on the mythology and some of the early Mycenaean religion I recommend the OPS video about Persephone and Hades
Is OPS a misspelling of Overly Sarcastic Productions (OSP) or something else?
Yep OSP! The one and only overly sarcastic production! Damn You, Autocorrect!!!!
I really enjoyed this episode, thank you!
a question that should be brought up, was the "abduction of Persephone" a tale explaining older traditions that were still used.
I loved all the gods beings in Hercules, they were entertaining. Still dysfunctional, but entertaining. Lore Olympus has been great about how so many of the gods are self centered, violent and dishonest. All of which can be found in the original stories.
hey Dr. Z theres no link for PBS origins in description
Whoa, are the Eleusinian Mysteries the basis of the word "elusive?"
Homer Simpson: How many of these gods are called Corey?
Dr. Z: Just one, but I don't know how to pronounce it any other way...
"...they saw the ghastly figure of Hades..."
(Uses illustration of a decidedly hot Hades) 🤣🤣
Seriously though, love the series. And I had a cat named Persephone.
Why is it that videos on Persephone (all myths mentioning her, not just the kidnapping 1) her role as both resurrectir & bringer of death (plagues, dusease) is glossed over? I'd like to hear more about that. The sources for that interest me.
Do Meshuggah next!
How often do l make jokes about chemistry? Periodically.
Despoina/Maiden/Persephone actually predates Hades the god to a time when Poseidon appears to have been the ruler of Hades the Underworld.
Highly recomend Lore Olympus. Beautiful art and the script is awesome too.
I’d love a video all about Zeus!
I wonder if Skadi and Njord hold up as a Legendary Power Couple... I think so. They've got two houses - so that's a plus.
A friend and one of my favorite authors, Benjanun Sriduankaew, is currently workshopping a retelling in which Hades is not a man, but a butch lesbian. That's literally all I know so far but, well, heck yeah. :D
Persephone is the best wife out of the three queens of the Greek pantheon with Hera being second.
Think you should do Eros and Psyche. That is a great myth for Valentine's Day.
Personally I prefer the non-historical versions where Persephone wants to get away from her mother
I'm mildly surprised there was no mention of the recent video game, Hades. It's loaded with lore regarding this particular myth, and is in fact one of the most important parts of the story.
To be fair, it made up entirely new stories, it isn’t “lore”. That isn’t a bad thing, I thought it had a great and compelling story, but we mustn’t confuse it with actual myth and lore.
Where is the link to the new channel?
They probably forgot to add it before they posted the video I guess?
@@kingofravens215 Seems like it, yes.
@@kingofravens215 They've fixed it now.
@@nian60 Cool thanks for the heads up!
U might want to search deeper into Persephone's lore and role. Some texts revealed she was a cthonic goddess b4 the abduction. Plus u could've also said that they're role was highly functional in contrast to Zeus and Hera.
Hades and Persephone were a functioning couple, with only having each of them cheating once; Persephone falling for Adonis and Hades with Minth (the Mint)
Despite the kidnapping and other bad things that happened, Hades and Persephone are one of the best couples in Greek mythology. I mean, compared to basically everyone else in the pantheon.
I was just watching videos yesterday about her!
Link in the description? Where?
There is something fundamentally hidden (and altered) in Persephone's story... hoping more details will surface eventually🙏🏼
I learned that greek mythos is all over the place and with lots plot holes. OSP posted that Persephone and Demetri predated Hades, being adopted into the patheon from an another, older worship/mythology.
love your videos ❤️
Just saying but the lack of consent wasnt what caused the ensuing Chaos since it isnt Kore who is causing it. Its Kores absence and the resulting wrath/depression of Demeter that brings about the calamity of everlasting winter.
Surprised there wasn't a Hadestown reference.
Here's a theory, what if all the tales about zuez abandoning his children was to teach the people of the land not to mistreat orphans because they could incur the wrath of Zeus?
Why does everyone always equate the underworld with Hell? The underworld predates the concept of hell, if anything, it is recorded as the 'house of Hades', and even just Hades, being the name of the place and the god.
Its the same concept, a place for souls to reside. It doesn’t have to literally be a 1:1 to be comparable.
Apparently this is a bit of a modern misconception - it was in fact the opposite way around. Persephone wasn't in Hades during the winter, making the earth cold; she was in Hades during the _summer,_ causing hot draughts. Remember, this is Greece we're talking about, not northern Europe - their summers are hot and their winters are mild.
Im disappointed in lack of captions
Persephone and Hades have like the most functional relationship in Greece
That's not saying much, buddy
Dr. Emily Zarka!
I love Lore Olympus and am so thrilled you mentioned it. Kind of disappointed you didn't bring up the nymph Minthe.
Zeus agreed to hades’ taking her which was a thing in Ancient Sparta when a man kidnapped a woman with her father’s consent and married her and kept her in some secret location until eventually bringing her and often her mother into his home. You can see many similarities.
I only say this bc the contemporary writers who created the myth weren’t portraying hades as a predator, but rather any other man asking or any other woman’s hand in marriage. The crime was that Zeus didn’t consult Demeter, not that Hades took Persephone. I believe the myth might indicate that, when choosing a husband for a daughter, it was important that both parents are pleased with the choice as the mother was more familiar with her daughter’s personality and knew what kind of a man she’d make a good wife to according to Ancient Greek societal standards. It’s very problematic if you look at it from our modern perspective as marriage being a consensual union of love, but this wasn’t the Ancient Greek concept of marriage.
Because the mother didn’t give permission to the marriage, she never entered the husband’s home and Persephone doesn’t stay in Hades’ home permanently, reflecting the Ancient Greek marriage tradition. It’s impossible to understand the story of hades and Persephone without understanding how marriages began in Ancient Greece. It’s a disgusting practice, but it *was* practiced.
In fact, the Greek art pose for marriage and abduction is the same pose
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Spartiate marriages did function like a ritualistic abduction, yes, but as the _Homeric Hymn to Demeter_ provides an origin for the mystery rites of Eleusis which lies in the Attica region, a better understood is the story beats are reminiscent of Attic/Athenian wedding rituals specifically: indeed the groom would offer the bride a fruit, such as an apple or a pomegranate, and the bride would eat it to symbolize that she accepts him as her husband and her primary provider going forward (as opposed to her father), Persephone's consumption of the pomegranate as gifted to her by, you know, *her husband Aïdoneus* no doubt being a stand-in for this.