one of my special powers in the club I play in is Calling bluffs. yeah, sometimes I am calling a full house with second pair, but most of the times I am spot on, When it really makes no sense, the chips go in. You (and Doug P and a few others) have raised the level of my game to where my confidence level is really up there... Thanks
I get your point but a hero call (or fold) can be made a) IP vs a donk bet, b) IP vs a check-raise, c) OOP vs a bet, and d) OOP vs a raise (after we bet, of course - which doesn't necessarily mean we donk bet as it depends on who was the aggressor on the previous street). this video was really about calling (or not) vs donk bets. good luck on the tables.
I just made a microlevel Patrik antonius-ish hero call, for some reason called a bet with Jh5h, flop was 2d5s4c, villain shoves, im short (9.8bb) on pko. I think, well if he wants my bounty, why not let me lead if he has it, i tank for a while and call. Villain shows AKo, missing both turn and river 😎
When you're getting a good price and you don't have dirty outs. For example, if you have a two or three flush board on the flop, you probably shouldn't call a gut shot the majority of the time unless you're getting an insane price. Generally, you want to be calling gut shots on non-paired rainbow boards.
@@Wangste002 actually it should be more based on range vs range and who has the nut advantage. The best times to turn bottom of your range junky busted draws into bluffs are when your opponent’s range is more weighted towards one pair/non-nut hands and when boards get very dangerous for one pair type hands and you have the nut advantage. The problem with the logic in these posts is that you shouldn’t really be a station with bottom of your range draws to begin with. Those need to either be folds or occasionally if you’re in the right situation, you turn them into bluffs. If you’re getting very good pot odds facing a tiny bet, you need to realize that a tiny size like that is either going to be a nutted hand looking to induce a raise (the frequency that will be the case is actually pretty low as that strat usually backfires and prevents the nutted hand from being able to max their value on later streets by keeping the pot small when the opponent just calls, plus nutted hands don’t want to give really bad draws that still have a chance to suckout THAT cheap of a price to get there), or they are going to be very very marginal with no pair type hands with back doors or small scared pairs. This means in the long run, blasting off on tiny bets with your worst draws can be extremely profitable if you identify the right spots. But just choosing to be a station with your worst draws = -EV all day
One of the things which Jonathan mentions which is critical when considering a big hero call with a bluff catcher type hand is your blockers. Having the J blocker was actually pretty bad for Tristan in this spot. Jonathan proceeded to point out that having pocket Js or 10s would’ve been a much worse hero call candidate in this spot than hands like 9x combos or Q6 or Q8 suited combos, but he didn’t mention anything about Tristan’s J kicker. Having the J or 10 blocker in this spot to go with the queen makes it less likely villain is bluffing with the most obvious draws which would’ve chosen to check/call chase until the river. I personally would’ve made the results oriented incorrect fold in this spot having the J blocker if I had villain pegged as a rec. Skilled opponent’s are donk leading or setting up the check raise with their sets on the flop or turn to increase the odds of maxing their value if their opponent has anything to fight back against them with, plus they are likely doing the same thing with the bottom of their range draws (which would’ve included 78 combos for gutters), so the line would look a little too suspect to not have to call against a skilled opponent with QJ in this spot. Against rec’s though, too often it’s going to be a set of 5s or 9s….. even 2s or 6s who may have decided to make a stand with only 1 face card on board figuring you are just another skilled opponent trying to push them around with hands like AK or AJ or A10 here.
I'd also find a fold on the river by adding 65s and 96s to the range of a rec player who'd call from the small blind and check-call the flop and turn regardless of bet size, then donk the river with two pair.
idk - I don't play tourneys, but in cash if I get donked into on the river for a large sizing after betting the turn large it's almost always value they don't want to check through. Maybe tourneys are different.
Yeah, tourneys are definitely different. You have to take more risks as blinds and antes increase and your bb stack gets shorter and shorter, especially around ~30 bbs. You don't want to sit there and blind out waiting for the nuts so you have to make some big time plays (bluffs and hero calls) in order to have a chance at making a final table run.
That's false . It heavily depends on the players you are playing against. Today I called an all in 5x pot with a good bluff catcher ( I was blocking flush and straight) and I had a note on that player (he bluffs a lot on the river by overbetting). I called the 5x pot bet and he showed a pair of 8 and I won with pair of aces. It really depends on the type of players you are playing with. Every player is different
@pokercoaching When will you be having your next subscription offer? I am keen to get on board before I play some live tournaments but a little bit pricey for me at the moment!🙈
Before card reveal yes I'd say that I'd choose to call quite quickly: If this is a value lead on river, they should have one of AQ,QQ,99,55 so to me the lead can only be 2-3 value hands. So then asking, do any of these nutted hands QQ/99 they are saying they have play this way? QQ - Probably re-raises preflop almost always so we can discount. (+we have to count for our blocker) 99 - Re-raises at some frequency pre-flop and likely often vs CO raise. Will raise at some frequency on the flop or if not the turn. 55 - Re-raises at some frequency on flop or if not the turn but also still would need to be somewhat aware that the AQ - Re-raises preflop at some frequency and I'd also say this would be quite a thin value bet considering that more of the available nutted hands are in our range so I'd normally just discount this from the value donk range. KQ - I don't think theres much value in this situation in considering 'they could have KQ' because if they are doing this with KQ you are surely gaining a lot of equity VS them overall.
Nice work! maybe i am just wrong(or too much PLO), but I have doubts about there being Loooots of draws on a rainbow Q95-flop and specially after big bet on (brick) turn. Also J is not a great card to have here , still I guess this is a call.
Tough spot.... great analysis behind the hero call. When I'm faced with a giant donk bet in my online games, I tend to default to villain's aggression factor HUD stat. If villain has an AF in the 1-1.5 range, I assume it's an "honest" donk with the nuts, in which case I'd fold something as strong as top pair/good to great kicker.
I once folded a straight with a blocker to a busted nut flush draw to a river shove for just over the size of the pot after he x/r’ed the turn and the board paired on the river. He said a few hands later that he had the lower straight.
The thing is that i can come up with these ideas after my plays and i usually understands what is happening and have good reasons making those plays but while playing online that 40 seconds that i have is just too short for all of these thinking, thats where im struggling
I dont understand why you think he couldnt have 87 on the river. The people I play against online will literally call an all in on the turn waiting for the one card that will give them a straight or a flush. Its stupid but they do it.
The problem with this play is that recreational players and fish rarely ever bluff with nothing especially when they are donk leading on the river. It's almost always value heavy because they realize people don't fold much and they may be too scared/incapable of pulling off this bluff.
imo if the player is going to bluff here, it would be check raises on a previous street...not donk bet on the river. played this way, i think most of the time youre losing... but what do i know!? haha
The villain is never calling a re-raise jam with a worse hand there. Never. He folds all his bluffs (as he had there) and calls all his nuts (two pairs, sets and straights). Top pair is a pure bluff catcher at that point on the river, definitely not strong enough to raise all in for value from any worse hands because villain just won't have them there. If he did, he would (*should*) check back the river hoping to see a cheap showdown (assuming he's a decent poker player).
The only reasonable donk leads here are the slow played pocket 5's or 9's. I can't see a small blind 3 betting preflop out of position with 9's (it CAN happen with better players, but not recreational players).
![Dealing with DONK BETS! [WSOP Main Event]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/HRehR_ZhlCw/mqdefault.jpg)
Would YOU have called on the river as Tristan in this hand? 🤔
one of my special powers in the club I play in is Calling bluffs. yeah, sometimes I am calling a full house with second pair, but most of the times I am spot on, When it really makes no sense, the chips go in.
You (and Doug P and a few others) have raised the level of my game to where my confidence level is really up there... Thanks
I love when Jonathan adds to the discussion these are so helpful
Alternative video title: How to structure a hero call. Nice one guys. This is a skill I’m going through the growing pains of learning now.
I get your point but a hero call (or fold) can be made a) IP vs a donk bet, b) IP vs a check-raise, c) OOP vs a bet, and d) OOP vs a raise (after we bet, of course - which doesn't necessarily mean we donk bet as it depends on who was the aggressor on the previous street). this video was really about calling (or not) vs donk bets. good luck on the tables.
I just made a microlevel Patrik antonius-ish hero call, for some reason called a bet with Jh5h, flop was 2d5s4c, villain shoves, im short (9.8bb) on pko. I think, well if he wants my bounty, why not let me lead if he has it, i tank for a while and call. Villain shows AKo, missing both turn and river 😎
You mentioned gut shots that should call. I could really use a lesson on when to call with a gut shot.
generally when you're getting a good price
When you're getting a good price and you don't have dirty outs. For example, if you have a two or three flush board on the flop, you probably shouldn't call a gut shot the majority of the time unless you're getting an insane price. Generally, you want to be calling gut shots on non-paired rainbow boards.
@@Wangste002 actually it should be more based on range vs range and who has the nut advantage. The best times to turn bottom of your range junky busted draws into bluffs are when your opponent’s range is more weighted towards one pair/non-nut hands and when boards get very dangerous for one pair type hands and you have the nut advantage. The problem with the logic in these posts is that you shouldn’t really be a station with bottom of your range draws to begin with. Those need to either be folds or occasionally if you’re in the right situation, you turn them into bluffs. If you’re getting very good pot odds facing a tiny bet, you need to realize that a tiny size like that is either going to be a nutted hand looking to induce a raise (the frequency that will be the case is actually pretty low as that strat usually backfires and prevents the nutted hand from being able to max their value on later streets by keeping the pot small when the opponent just calls, plus nutted hands don’t want to give really bad draws that still have a chance to suckout THAT cheap of a price to get there), or they are going to be very very marginal with no pair type hands with back doors or small scared pairs. This means in the long run, blasting off on tiny bets with your worst draws can be extremely profitable if you identify the right spots. But just choosing to be a station with your worst draws = -EV all day
One of the things which Jonathan mentions which is critical when considering a big hero call with a bluff catcher type hand is your blockers. Having the J blocker was actually pretty bad for Tristan in this spot. Jonathan proceeded to point out that having pocket Js or 10s would’ve been a much worse hero call candidate in this spot than hands like 9x combos or Q6 or Q8 suited combos, but he didn’t mention anything about Tristan’s J kicker. Having the J or 10 blocker in this spot to go with the queen makes it less likely villain is bluffing with the most obvious draws which would’ve chosen to check/call chase until the river. I personally would’ve made the results oriented incorrect fold in this spot having the J blocker if I had villain pegged as a rec. Skilled opponent’s are donk leading or setting up the check raise with their sets on the flop or turn to increase the odds of maxing their value if their opponent has anything to fight back against them with, plus they are likely doing the same thing with the bottom of their range draws (which would’ve included 78 combos for gutters), so the line would look a little too suspect to not have to call against a skilled opponent with QJ in this spot. Against rec’s though, too often it’s going to be a set of 5s or 9s….. even 2s or 6s who may have decided to make a stand with only 1 face card on board figuring you are just another skilled opponent trying to push them around with hands like AK or AJ or A10 here.
I'd also find a fold on the river by adding 65s and 96s to the range of a rec player who'd call from the small blind and check-call the flop and turn regardless of bet size, then donk the river with two pair.
one of the shortest, yet one of the most valuable videos on this channel. and that's saying a lot, because so many videos are reeeally valuable.
idk - I don't play tourneys, but in cash if I get donked into on the river for a large sizing after betting the turn large it's almost always value they don't want to check through. Maybe tourneys are different.
Yeah, tourneys are definitely different. You have to take more risks as blinds and antes increase and your bb stack gets shorter and shorter, especially around ~30 bbs. You don't want to sit there and blind out waiting for the nuts so you have to make some big time plays (bluffs and hero calls) in order to have a chance at making a final table run.
That's false . It heavily depends on the players you are playing against. Today I called an all in 5x pot with a good bluff catcher ( I was blocking flush and straight) and I had a note on that player (he bluffs a lot on the river by overbetting). I called the 5x pot bet and he showed a pair of 8 and I won with pair of aces. It really depends on the type of players you are playing with. Every player is different
@pokercoaching When will you be having your next subscription offer? I am keen to get on board before I play some live tournaments but a little bit pricey for me at the moment!🙈
Before card reveal yes I'd say that I'd choose to call quite quickly:
If this is a value lead on river, they should have one of AQ,QQ,99,55 so to me the lead can only be 2-3 value hands. So then asking, do any of these nutted hands QQ/99 they are saying they have play this way?
QQ - Probably re-raises preflop almost always so we can discount. (+we have to count for our blocker)
99 - Re-raises at some frequency pre-flop and likely often vs CO raise. Will raise at some frequency on the flop or if not the turn.
55 - Re-raises at some frequency on flop or if not the turn but also still would need to be somewhat aware that the
AQ - Re-raises preflop at some frequency and I'd also say this would be quite a thin value bet considering that more of the available nutted hands are in our range so I'd normally just discount this from the value donk range.
KQ - I don't think theres much value in this situation in considering 'they could have KQ' because if they are doing this with KQ you are surely gaining a lot of equity VS them overall.
Jonathan. Good stuff that pot odds on the RIver.. What about "DONK" bets on-the-FLOP? Maybe a Video also on-the-TURN....
See PokerCoaching.com!
Very useful channel. I made it to so many final tables thanks to your videos.
Amazing!! Keep crushing!
Nice work! maybe i am just wrong(or too much PLO), but I have doubts about there being Loooots of draws on a rainbow Q95-flop and specially after big bet on (brick) turn. Also J is not a great card to have here , still I guess this is a call.
Tough spot.... great analysis behind the hero call. When I'm faced with a giant donk bet in my online games, I tend to default to villain's aggression factor HUD stat. If villain has an AF in the 1-1.5 range, I assume it's an "honest" donk with the nuts, in which case I'd fold something as strong as top pair/good to great kicker.
Rec players loooooooove to trap with flopped sets. The way they played screamed pocket 9s to me but thankfully that wasnt the case here.
I once folded a straight with a blocker to a busted nut flush draw to a river shove for just over the size of the pot after he x/r’ed the turn and the board paired on the river. He said a few hands later that he had the lower straight.
The thing is that i can come up with these ideas after my plays and i usually understands what is happening and have good reasons making those plays but while playing online that 40 seconds that i have is just too short for all of these thinking, thats where im struggling
Please put the dealer button in the right spot.
I dont understand why you think he couldnt have 87 on the river.
The people I play against online will literally call an all in on the turn waiting for the one card that will give them a straight or a flush.
Its stupid but they do it.
You are right. I was writing the exactly same comment
The problem with this play is that recreational players and fish rarely ever bluff with nothing especially when they are donk leading on the river. It's almost always value heavy because they realize people don't fold much and they may be too scared/incapable of pulling off this bluff.
imo if the player is going to bluff here, it would be check raises on a previous street...not donk bet on the river. played this way, i think most of the time youre losing... but what do i know!? haha
I can see hanging around on the flop with the open ended straight draw. Calling the turn bet was a bit optimistic, easy fold.
How many blinds did the villain have left? Can you ever ship it in instead of just calling?
The villain is never calling a re-raise jam with a worse hand there. Never. He folds all his bluffs (as he had there) and calls all his nuts (two pairs, sets and straights). Top pair is a pure bluff catcher at that point on the river, definitely not strong enough to raise all in for value from any worse hands because villain just won't have them there. If he did, he would (*should*) check back the river hoping to see a cheap showdown (assuming he's a decent poker player).
The only reasonable donk leads here are the slow played pocket 5's or 9's. I can't see a small blind 3 betting preflop out of position with 9's (it CAN happen with better players, but not recreational players).
Just came to like this post just because of the Title 😂… “ when to call DONK bets
Isn't this a bad bluff catcher due to the fact that he blocks some bluffs life 10J , KJ?
If you’re gonna have a jack the diamond is the best one to have
I wonder if amateurs tend to bluff a little more often versus a pro.
Because the pro is more likely going to think about folding.
Or, they have 34 and are a calling station with some luck this time.
And guess what, that max happen.... in some games with noobs
tournament...blinds are going up.