Please remove the subtitles on future videos. They aren't correct, they detract from the video to those that can hear, and the ones automatically generated by RUclips are better.
I can't believe the actor who played Dawson got the part because Rob Reiner asked him to audition. He was Rob Reiner's assistant on the movie and was responsible for finding locations for the movie. Wolf did a great job as Dawson.
I'd sue the government if I were the PFC Louden's family. The kid had no chance, misled from the beginning by his superiors. And had his life ruined with DD. This
Dawson did such a phenomenal job. I'm so sorry we didn't see more of him in other movies....The way he go annoyed with Keefe's loud "Jesus" was so nuanced and perfect
It's true that they were wrong and they were dishonorably discharged! But they were coerced by two negative ego asserting authority's( both by Lt. Kendrick and ultimately by Col. Jessop!)who's only intention was inflicting personal revenge by their abuse of misguided servitude. It's a lesson that's not far from today's reality of a former president's(Trump) personal intentions to try and overturn a fair and honest 2020 election, that he knowingly lost!
They couldn't have known that they were going to kill Santiago (hence the phrase "involuntary manslaughter"), which means that they were innocent of the murder charges. They were following orders which they had every reason to believe were legal, albeit offensive. They deserved their punishment (and accepted it), but there is a huge difference between accepting the consequences of their action (an honorable thing) and falsely confessing to a crime that they didn't commit.
1:34 that ‘sir’ after all that yelling made me laugh 😂 even after he was venting his anger and frustration explaining why he can’t throw away his honour, he still remembered to say ‘sir’ 😂
He was willing to take any punishment given to him, I will give him that. And I understand Kaffee's frustrations in that he wants what is best for his client. But the marine just would not accept that he took someone's life, even if it was someone who broke the code. The goal was to punish the victim, not kill him. Claiming that it was an order - he got lucky that Jessup that the urge to tell everyone that he ordered the Code Red just to show that he was training them and did not feel comfortable about hiding that. They were too fanatical and naive about their situation. It did not help that Galloway was also naive and generally a bad lawyer.
Kaffee should be damn grateful Dawson was so stubborn in wanting to go to trial. All in all, this trial was EXCELLENT for Kaffee's career. The sharp-as-a-tack, bold, ruthless litigator who took down Colonel Nathan Jessup for conspiracy and perjury, just months before Jessup's promotion to the NSC. Holy shit. If he went to the private sector after he left the Navy, clients would be beating down his door trying to hire him. And even if he stayed in government, his name would go down in history as one of the greats.
@@SelectiveApathy82 Then why is he only colonel at an advanced age ? Plus: One who knows how to play the game would not stumble over a substandard private.
@@andy99ish Did it ever occur to you that Jessup is highly skilled at being two different people? On his base, he's a megalomaniac with a God-complex who loves to intimidate and talk down to everyone under him, but at important functions, parties, events, etc where he meets the higher-ups he becomes a whole different person: Charming, likeable, flattering his bosses, telling them just what they want to hear. Power-hungry people are extremely good at putting on a convincing facade.
@@SelectiveApathy82 That might be the case. And it would add realism and a further dimension. Yet there is nothing of that in the movie. Quite the contrary, Jessup is arrogant and openly hostile to investigators sent by HQ (the legal team). A seasoned organizational Jekyll/Hyde would most definitively show his good side to anyone sent by HQ.
All in all, this case was EXCELLENT for Kaffee's career. The sharp-as-a-tack, bold, ruthless litigator who took down Colonel Nathan Jessup for conspiracy and perjury, just months before Jessup's promotion to the NSC. Holy cow. If he went to the private sector after he left the Navy, clients would be beating down his office door trying to hire him.
Always thought Dawson was being too over zealous. He’s main concern was that he would be dishonorably discharged after admitting they were guilty and going to jail thing is, Whether or not he took the deal , he would still end up being dishonorably discharged regardless, he just didn’t see that. One cool thing about this scene that i learned was that the guy playing LC Dawson was actually part of the production crew, a camera man i believe. When the original actor wasn’t cutting it, someone asked him to read lines and see if he could do it. He obviously did really good as they cast him right away and gained the part.
Dawson is one of those people who would have absolutely NO idea what to do with himself as an ordinary private citizen. The USMC was the only place he felt at home. The thought of being a civilian working a regular job was either too boring or too terrifying for him. I guess some people are just hardwired for an order-following (and order-giving) disciplined military life.
He was willing to be dishonorably discharged as long as he was adjudicated guilty. He was hoping for the ideal situation, though, where the truth came out and they were cleared of all charges. A far-fetched hope, to be certain, but that was the sort of guy he was: Aim for the top and if he missed, then at least he tried. He just didn't do anything half-assed.
I like the Irony that was brought into this. The one reason Dawson wanted to fight the case out, is that he wanted to remain in the Marines. In the ed, it was the one thing they lost on. He was dishonorably discharged from the Marine Corp
During the end when Tom leaves the room expecting a salute, the guy essentially dissed him twice. For ignoring Tom’s rebuttal for one, and to have his hands in his pockets is never allowed in the military at all 😅
@ I’m talking about being in the presence of an officer. You can do as you fancy amongst the people ranked near you, but if an officer is around you have to be presentable always
He literally killed his fellow Marine and he feels no guilt cuz he was commanded to do so. Meanwhile, his commanding officers are lying and covering their own asses while he twists in the wind. That’s messed up.
How this scene should have ended: "What ever happened to saluting an officer when he leaves the room" "We don't salute officers when they aren't in uniform, sir." "Oh, right. My mistake."
Actually, that's one of the biggest mistakes this movie makes regarding military protocol. In the Marines and Navy, salutes are never rendered indoors, and not without cover (a hat). Instead, in the presence of an officer, you stand at attention until told otherwise.
Maybe I didn't get the plot, but didn't Downey just beat a fellow Marine to death? And he's hiding behind the ol' 'following orders' defense? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but seems like hell of a position to go on a high-roading honour rant, calling people cowards and asking around if you did the right thing.
@@paksta You are absolutely right and it's why I love but hate this movie. It's a great movie, but there is absolutely no justification for their actions. There is no honor between either of them. They abandoned their oath the moment they obeyed an unlawful order. When you take the oath of enlistment you swear to obey orders according to regulations and the UCMJ. It's a military members duty to not carry out an unlawful order. That is drilled pretty hard into people in the military. It's also made clear that if you carry out an unlawful order, you cannot defend yourself by saying "I was just following orders"
Then you've missed the entirety of the movie's plot and main point. The code and the zeal has its legal limits and the character of Dawson recognises this after the verdict at the end of the movie.
The one exception to saluting indoors/uncovered is if you are 'reporting in' to a senior officer (or taking your leave from that); not sure this is really the case here. One source (of 3) did, however, say salutes aren't rendered to persons out of uniform, although that was not my experience.
You know for all his posturing and moral righteousness here, involuntary manslaughter is literally the exact crime Dawson committed. At least he realized that by the end, I guess.
He didn't confess to a crime that he didn't commit. He did what he did after receiving what he believed to be an order to do so, from an authority figure he was bound to respect. He was responsible for the outcome (the death), but he had no way to know that this would be the outcome, and thus could NOT be guilty of murder. What he "postured" about was that he would not confess to a lesser crime as a way of evading responsibility for a greater crime that he did not commit. He accepted the consequences of this, as he said he would in the beginning. What he did not do is lie about what he did or why he did it just to get off easy. That is what honor is all about, and it is not "righteousness"
I have watched some Navy people on RUclips review this movie, including a Real Navy JAG officer. He loved the movie but says there are so many things wrong about it. 1) A Colonel about to be a General does not care if a private rats out a Corporal. 2) There is no internal affairs in the Navy JAG corps, everyone is supposed to keep an eye on everyone else 3) You do not charge enlisted with conduct unbecoming. That is for officers. Enlisted are usually kids between 18 and 20 and are expected to do dumb things. They give them awards and accommodations for not being stupid.4) Jessup's testimony is not admissible once the judge ruled Kaffee out of order.
I worked along side some marines when I was in the Australian navy. I was in the cardio room on a rowing machine when a group came in. They were all completely jacked, and absolute units. They discussed what their routine was gonna involve and they just came alive, they were animals It was impressive, loved seeing that My claim to fame is that during the inter service cross country run (I was voluntold I’d be competing) I beat one marine. Literally every other marine on base finished ahead of me but I got ahead of one. For an Aussie engineering sailor who worked with electricity and smoked and drank too much I was bloody proud of that The portrayal of marines in this scene brought me back haha
Love how instead of saluting (which you don't do indoors in this situation), he put on his "Air Force gloves" as we called putting your hands in your pockets.
Never served in the military but am 100% addicted to sayings like "air force gloves" and the like LOL. Between all branches they are really funny to a simple civilian 😂 have a great day
Involuntary manslaughter is exactly what they did. Yes, they were ordered to give Santiago a code red, but unless they were told specifically to shove a rag into his throat, they chose the method for the hazing, so they have to bear some responsibility for Santiago’s accidental death.
The method does not matter at all, it just made things even worse. Code Red is not condoned by the US military, even if it's a trend at whatever shithole they're stationed at.
Because the Corps live by a code of honor. He believed what he did was in keeping with that code. A guilty plea would essentially be lying in his eyes, a fate worse than death.
@@pathfinderlight Never really got this logic. These marines honestly believed that they will be exonerated for blindly following a highly illegal and immoral order from a superior officer? Is the stereotype of Marines being stupid true?
@@d.maxwell8669 they were taught by the marines to do code reds and probably had code reds happen to them. what do you think these guys are regular people they are marines there’s a deeper connection and set of values.
@@icecoldpolitics8890So you're confirming that Marines are indeed stupid? It's one thing to genuinely believe in a code, but it's another to be so utterly ignorant of military rules that one would whole heartedly believe that they will not be dishonorably discharged for being the direct cause of the death of a fellow marine as a result of blindly following an illegal order. Being devoted to a code is different from being mentally brain dead.
Man. Tom Cruise is criminally underrated as an actor. I know he's an idol and hearthrob. And criticized widely as well. But he's actually a great actor. Damn impressive. To me, this was one of his best movies. Maybe his best. So damn good. So confident. At such a young age.
USMC tidbit: Not only did he not salute him (which he really couldn't do anyways) he put his hands in his pockets which is something Marines do not do. A subtlety that makes this seen even better.
It was only by sheer luck that these two didn't end up spending the rest of their lives in prison. In the real world, Jessup wouldn't have cracked and these two idiots would have had the book thrown at them.
Lucky for Kaffee, Jessup lived entirely in his own self-created, power-trip world where he thought every single order he gave was highly necessary, and anyone who thought otherwise was an ignorant idiot who doesn't understand how to defend a country. Kaffee was really good at reading people, and he realized this was the case with Jessup when he met him in Cuba.
You’d be surprised how you can manipulate someone with an ego. Just the fact that Jessup had to go to trial was a blow to his pride. Jessup will not tolerate questions because in his dogmatic view of the world the ends justifies the means. Granted I agree, chances are he wouldn’t be suckered in to a confession but it is possible to manipulate the outcome by pushing the correct buttons. It depends on how big a blowhard the person is. In this film, Jessup was the worst kind.
@@andy99ish My guess is he never screwed up this badly before. And overall, he was really competent at running the Gitmo base. When he ordered the Code Red he must have thought he was untouchable at that point in his career.
@@SelectiveApathy82 This cannot be excluded. Yet I doubt it: As a colonel he is middle+management. A totally exaggerated ego would have collided with the hierarchical structure much earlier. On the other hand as colonel he is not even close to untouchable status and he would know that. The scene in which he sarcastically orders to be connected with the POTUS is at odds with his rank.
I still love the movie, but as I've gotten older it's dawned on me how the writing doesn't hold up wonderfully. - it's insanely negligent that they don't take the absolute sweetheart deal. They were dead to rights in the trial, and fell ass-backwards into winning simply because it's a movie & Sorkin could make the resolution as implausible as he wanted. - the moral grounds argument for not taking the deal doesn't even make sense. They were being offered involuntary manslaughter charges. They shoved a rag down a guy's throat and he choked to death on his own blood. That wasn't their intention but it happened. That's involuntary manslaughter! You did do something wrong Dawson.
I mean he already dishonored himself, his unit, and the Marines by obeying a obviously unlawful and immoral order that resulted in the death of another Marine.
HE didn't see it that way. I UNDERSTAND you don't have the balls or heart to serve your country, but it isn't morally black and white as you are making it.
@@nocalsteve of course he could risk disobeying an illegal order. he had an obligation to give up his life, if necessary, in the service of the corps, which includes disobeying illegal orders. The idea that it was okay for him to shirk his duty out of fear of mere punishment is an insult to the very code he's advocating so strongly.
"What happened to saluting an officer when he leaves a room?" "Well sir if you know anything about the Navy or Marine Corps you would know we don't salute indoors unless under arms". That is how this scene should have ended.
@@alwayssomething8572 If the movie was smart enough to know Marines are quite fanatical to our Corps then it should be smart enough to know its most basic rules and regulations.
Bullshit. If the battalion or company commander come into the orderly room off hours wearing their civilian clothes it's your ass if you don't pop them a salute.
That's not true. Marines salute officers who are not in uniform as long as they themselves are in uniform and are absolutely sure it's an officer in civilian clothing. Marines even salute a pov (personally owned vehicle), with a blue placard on it indicating that the vehicle is owned by an officer. The officer never has to salute back, however most officers will do this courtesy, or request that all Marines remove their covers so no saluting of any kind occurs. Generals usually do this because there are too many people to salute on a base.
In the real world, you should take the 6 months. I am over 60, in all that time, no one except for a government job or school ever asked me for my DD214 or diploma's.
@@GaryKlineCA Kendrick gave the order, but it was Dawson's responsibility to tell his lawyer that Downey wasn't in the room when Kendrick gave it. Both these Marines were dumb as rocks, especially Downey. They had the mentality of 6-year olds......."We didn't tell you because you didn't ask us!". Jesus christ I bet Kaffee wanted to punch them both in the face.
@@GaryKlineCA Actually it was. Kendrick never gave Downey any orders after the meeting where he told everyone not to touch Santiago. Downey was on his way to the barracks when he had a blown tire in his jeep... so Dawson was the only one who was actually given the order. Yet Dawson told the order to Downey, so even if Kendrick's order was for both guys or just Dawson, Dawson was the one who gave the order to Downey.
Indeed, the more I watch this film, the more I dislike the character of Dawson. He intentionally obfuscates the truth from the beginning because he doesn't like Cruise's character and seems more than willing to allow both him and Downey to burn to satisfy his own ego.
@@v2micca Now that is an interesting observation. Indeed there is an instinct to cover higher up, both on the Downey-Dawson and the Dawson-Kendrick lines. I wonder how that is compatible with the honor- based absolute imperative to tell the truth no matter what.
The costume choice in this scene is excellent. Caffy wears a letter jacket like a school boy while he argues with Dawson in full military uniform. Basically represents the conflict between American lifestyles/luxury and the force needed to protect and maintain that luxury present throughout the movie
Lt Kafee: You're going to Fort Leavenworth for the best part of your life, you know what? I don't give a sh*t. LCpl Dawson: Yes Sir, I know you DON'T Sir !
The Marines had a point. Going home means nothing if everyone looks down their moral nose at you for the rest of your life. They were innocent and had the right to fight for that.
A common theme in this thread is that Dawson is guilty and he should have been dishonorably discharged. Remember in the final scene Dawson explains to Downey that according to their code “we were supposed to fight for those who couldn’t fight for themselves. We were supposed to fight for Willie”
The actor that played Dawson was actually the original location scout manager. Rob Reiner had him audition and he got the role. He had never acted a day in his life.
When I saw this as it came out in 1993, some people laughed at about 1:45. I think the idea of turning down the deal when only six months' time would be served struck them as absurd.
Dawson putting his hands in his pockets is powerful. Anyone who has served knows thats a huge sign of disrespect. He may as well have flipped him off. Its the same thing, really.
“What happened to saluting an officer when he leaves the room.” I love how they made Kaffee suddenly give a shit about etiquette so they could set up that feel good moment at the end where Harold salutes him 😂
3:14 "What happened to saluting an officer when he leaves the room?" Nothing! Even if he entered the room there would be no salute if an officer with superior rank wears civilian clothes.... 😂 You salute the rank not the person. At least in my country's armed forces. 🤣
Dawson knows. Kaffee doesn't. Remember Kaffee has only been an officer for a few months at this point. Dawson knows the proper procedures better, hence why he mocks with the hands in pocket.
In reality, a dishonorable discharge would not be on the table given the failure of the major charges. They likely would get a general discharge - considering the only charge sustained was "Conduct Unbecoming a United States Marine" (for the sake of argument let's call that General Article, since Conduct Unbecoming only applies to officers).
No, he didn't want to be dishonorably discharged on a plea. He said he would accept his punishment if the COURT found him wrong and that is what happened. He then had his own ah-ha moment and realized what he should have done. I think he could live with the discharge that way, but not for bailing out to save himself.
@@krisherman3513 he could have done that by a plea and saved everyone a lot of trouble. allocute and then if the court accepts a guilty plea, accept the court's judgement. The court has the right to refuse to accept a guilty plea if the facts allocuted to do not support a conviction.
That whole back and forth was to see if Harold wouldn’t salute him at the end. By not saluting an officer showed he wasn’t a robot who only took orders and could think for himself ✅
So much for that code huh? Willing to go to jail forever basically for that code...but he wouldn't fully follow said code anyway, by refusing to salute..strange.
This show had good advisors. Harold's reaction is not that of a peace-time soldier. That comes from a 'Nam vet. And when they'd get like that..?! It's "combat-mode," and you'd never let them get like that..cold-sweat.
Oh Bullshit. This came out in 1992, Vietnam for the US ended in '74 and even by that stage it was on afterburners. Dawson doesn't look like he's even out of his early twenties, he would have had to have been at least 45 to have been anywhere near Vietnam. For reference, Jessup mentions he and Markinson are 'Nam vets and they look like stale beef jerky. Dawson would have been in the Marine Corps for 18 years and somehow still be a Lance Corporal despite being an "exemplary marine". Besides, they bring up during Kendrick's cross examination that Dawson had only recently completed School of Infantry.
@@Ristopistox yes, they did, and I saw the movie. And do you know that following an order is only an excuse if they were under the impression that what they did otherwise wasn't illegal? You can't do anything just because it's an order whether you're in the army or not.
1:33 “But I believe I was right, sir. I believe I did my job, and I _will not dishonor myself, my unit, or the Corps so that I can go home in six months!”_ “Wow…I’m sexually aroused, Lance Corporal.”
quite the opposite. he didn't have the guts to stand up for his fellow marines, either santiago or downey. He let santiago die (if unintentionally) and he let downey follow him into legal jeopardy because he didn't have the guts to rectify the contradictory set of illegal orders he was given. He acted not out of principle, as kendrick did, but out of fear of punishment. he put his own wellbeing, his performance reviews, ahead of the wellbeing of his fellow marines. He was a maggot, not a man, when it counted.
The Marines were guilty. There is no way they would have a career in the military after the trial. Dishonorable Discharge is the least of their worries. It only means they can't work for the federal government ever again. The #1 issue is life in prison when they can go home in 6 months and start a new life in the civilian world. They are very young and can be with their families. They can always apply for an upgrade in their discharge. What they have to avoid is life in prison not the type of discharge but this is a Hollywood movie full of holes.
Tom was so deep in character that after being called a coward, he took it to heart and started on his journey of crazier and more dangerous stunts. Now we all salute him.
The next scene right after he cleared the room should have been Tom Cruise punching Harold in the jaw as hard as he could, and then a general brawl breaking out.
Harold would mop the floor with Kaffee. Kaffee was Navy. They don't teach you how to fight in general navy. He would have to be a navy seal. Harold was a marine. It's all they are taught how to do. Fight and kill. Navy teaches you how to use a gun. Not fight.
@@SelectiveApathy82 I've seen Kaffee do some pretty crazy shit to much bigger guys in his other movies, even several guys at once, I wouldn't be so sure.
Only in Hollywood. IRL, Marines will not be fired for refusing to obey an illegal order. Well, they may be fired, but if they took their case to court, they would win and be reinstated. Following illegal orders is itself illegal.
@@joes4194 typed like a person that doesn't actually understand how language works... very very few words, if any, are entirely interchangeable. even so called synonyms. but even more than that, there are no actual 'rules' for a language. the ones you learned in school are only 'rules' in the same way the 'laws of motion' are laws. that is to say, they're not prescriptive. they're descriptive. in other words, we create rules to describe the language as it currently exists. the language doesn't conform to the rules we make. (unless its an artificial language, like klingon, or elfish). languages change, evolve...so there's literally nothing wrong with colloqquially using 'of' that way, in that sentence
no, he was very much wrong, on all levels and from all perspectives. He had an obligation to disobey illegal orders - not just from a purely mechanical, legal standpoint but from the very code of honor he refers to. he had an obligation to obey the chain of command, not just its most immediate link. He failed to do that in the moment - failed to rectify the contradictory orders he was given, out of fear of punishment - that is to say, out of cowardice. He was a coward, not a real man. He committed a crime which (unintentionally) caused the death of one of his fellow marines. That makes him guilty of involuntary manslaughter, the very charge offered to him in the plea bargain. As a matter of honor, he had an obligation to plead guilty to that charge. In fairness, Kaffee never answers the question (as he should have done) "yes, you are guilty". But as a matter of honor harold absolutely should be pleading guilty to conduct unbecoming at least when they go to trial. He eventually admits his guilt at the end of the film. In the meantime he is unjustifiably obstructionist and puts downey in unjustifiable legal jeopardy - even if harold was going to insist on a not guilty plea he should at least have prevailed on downey to take the plea bargain.
I would think the ending of the movie proves otherwise. It was an illegal order and even if it wasn’t, the objective of a code red is not to kill its victim. At the end of the day, it could be argued he decided to fight out of his own ego, not for a sense of justice. He admitted his own guilt in the end. The brave and honorable thing to do would have been to stand up to LT Kendrick and tell him no, not blindly follow the order.
I used to think Dawson was being an idiot by not taking the deal, until i read what's involved in a dishonorable discharge. You've pretty much got less rights than a criminal!
@@Spacegoat92 Is it manslaughter when you are beating the crap out of someone? I thought that's more if you're over the speed limit or something. Either way, I think the most likely outcome then would be manslaughter with the higher end of possible sentencing. Kaffee got them a great deal.
@@paksta Murder is pre meditated. You went in with the intent of killing that person. That's why there's attempted murder and not attempted manslaughter. Killing someone while driving over the speed limit would be more along the lines of culpable driving. Manslaughter is when the intention was, the end result was your target would still be alive but it didn't go that way. Say you got into a fight with someone and you gave them a good shove and they tripped and smashed their head on the ground and died. You didn't wanna kill him, but he still died, that's manslaughter. But there are varying degrees of manslaughter and it can get pretty tricky when you go down that rabbit hole. As most legal issues are. But have a read up on what it means to be dishonourably discharged. You lose a whole lot of rights that you once had. You're basically going from a position of respect to the bottom wrung of society. Understandable that an honour driven Marine would find such a thing unfathomable.
@@Spacegoat92 This is very intetesting, cheers. I still think it was a pretty good deal Kaffee got them, but I understand their concern. But as opposing lawyer, it seems like it would be easy to prove that they had premeditated intent to cause serious pain, that put Santiago at obvious risk of serious injury or worse. Feels like they were always gonna get dishonourable discharge (which did happen), so they really shot a hail-mary for minimal gain. Kaffee was right the whole time.
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Hi everyone! What grade (out of 10) would you give this video?
Please remove the subtitles on future videos.
They aren't correct, they detract from the video to those that can hear, and the ones automatically generated by RUclips are better.
Uh.... 10, obviously
10 ALL THE WAY!
Say what you want about Tom Cruise but he knows and is great at his craft. He may be a terrible person but he's a great actor.
10
I can't believe the actor who played Dawson got the part because Rob Reiner asked him to audition. He was Rob Reiner's assistant on the movie and was responsible for finding locations for the movie. Wolf did a great job as Dawson.
I'd sue the government if I were the PFC Louden's family. The kid had no chance, misled from the beginning by his superiors. And had his life ruined with DD. This
DEI HIRE.
Gentleman playing Dawson was outstanding in this role. Absolutely nailed it at a level even seasoned actors would have had trouble engaging.
His performance was great.
Dawson did such a phenomenal job. I'm so sorry we didn't see more of him in other movies....The way he go annoyed with Keefe's loud "Jesus" was so nuanced and perfect
The actor who played Harold Dawson is Wolfgang Bodison.
Funny thing is that they were dishonorably discharged anyway. They were wrong, they ultimately killed someone.
He did say, "If a court decides what we did was wrong, I'll accept my punishment."
It's true that they were wrong and they were dishonorably discharged! But they were coerced by two negative ego asserting authority's( both by Lt. Kendrick and ultimately by Col. Jessop!)who's only intention was inflicting personal revenge by their abuse of misguided servitude. It's a lesson that's not far from today's reality of a former president's(Trump) personal intentions to try and overturn a fair and honest 2020 election, that he knowingly lost!
They were found guilty of conduct unbecoming of US Marines. Which isnt applicable to Junior enlisted marines
They didn’t go to jail for 6 months
They couldn't have known that they were going to kill Santiago (hence the phrase "involuntary manslaughter"), which means that they were innocent of the murder charges. They were following orders which they had every reason to believe were legal, albeit offensive. They deserved their punishment (and accepted it), but there is a huge difference between accepting the consequences of their action (an honorable thing) and falsely confessing to a crime that they didn't commit.
0:33 I love Tom's acting in this part. The sheer frustration and confusion on his face. No wonder he got so many parts in movies.
I caught that too. His confused look stood out.
its what happens when a liberal attorney meets someone with rigid moral code. you want to smack the smug ahole right in his face.
I was just thinking the same thing after watching this.
Yeah, he's pretty good.
It’s because people don’t like him in this movie
1:34 that ‘sir’ after all that yelling made me laugh 😂 even after he was venting his anger and frustration explaining why he can’t throw away his honour, he still remembered to say ‘sir’ 😂
He was willing to take any punishment given to him, I will give him that. And I understand Kaffee's frustrations in that he wants what is best for his client. But the marine just would not accept that he took someone's life, even if it was someone who broke the code. The goal was to punish the victim, not kill him. Claiming that it was an order - he got lucky that Jessup that the urge to tell everyone that he ordered the Code Red just to show that he was training them and did not feel comfortable about hiding that. They were too fanatical and naive about their situation. It did not help that Galloway was also naive and generally a bad lawyer.
Kaffee should be damn grateful Dawson was so stubborn in wanting to go to trial. All in all, this trial was EXCELLENT for Kaffee's career. The sharp-as-a-tack, bold, ruthless litigator who took down Colonel Nathan Jessup for conspiracy and perjury, just months before Jessup's promotion to the NSC. Holy shit. If he went to the private sector after he left the Navy, clients would be beating down his door trying to hire him. And even if he stayed in government, his name would go down in history as one of the greats.
A colonel would be promoted to a brigadier general. That is THREE stars too few to even be considered to sit in the National Security Council.
@@andy99ish Jessup probably made some really high-up "friends" who were impressed by him or really liked him. He knew how to play the game.
@@SelectiveApathy82 Then why is he only colonel at an advanced age ?
Plus: One who knows how to play the game would not stumble over a substandard private.
@@andy99ish Did it ever occur to you that Jessup is highly skilled at being two different people? On his base, he's a megalomaniac with a God-complex who loves to intimidate and talk down to everyone under him, but at important functions, parties, events, etc where he meets the higher-ups he becomes a whole different person: Charming, likeable, flattering his bosses, telling them just what they want to hear. Power-hungry people are extremely good at putting on a convincing facade.
@@SelectiveApathy82 That might be the case. And it would add realism and a further dimension. Yet there is nothing of that in the movie. Quite the contrary, Jessup is arrogant and openly hostile to investigators sent by HQ (the legal team). A seasoned organizational Jekyll/Hyde would most definitively show his good side to anyone sent by HQ.
I heard that the guy that played Dawson was a camera man and the producers looked at him and decided to try him out for the role...Good Job
He was a location manager on that film.
“Do you think we were right?”
It’s the wrong question to ask. “I think you’d lose” was, however, the right answer.
All in all, this case was EXCELLENT for Kaffee's career. The sharp-as-a-tack, bold, ruthless litigator who took down Colonel Nathan Jessup for conspiracy and perjury, just months before Jessup's promotion to the NSC. Holy cow. If he went to the private sector after he left the Navy, clients would be beating down his office door trying to hire him.
Then what was the right question?
@@Capcoor “Do you think we can win?”
The better response would have been “I dunno. Do YOU think assaulting a sleeping comrade with the intent of torturing him is right?”
Always thought Dawson was being too over zealous. He’s main concern was that he would be dishonorably discharged after admitting they were guilty and going to jail thing is, Whether or not he took the deal , he would still end up being dishonorably discharged regardless, he just didn’t see that. One cool thing about this scene that i learned was that the guy playing LC Dawson was actually part of the production crew, a camera man i believe. When the original actor wasn’t cutting it, someone asked him to read lines and see if he could do it. He obviously did really good as they cast him right away and gained the part.
Location scout, actually. He was the guy responsible for scouting locations for the shoot.
@@katherineberger6329 yes, thanks. You’re right. It’s been so long since i saw this that i forgot.
Dawson is one of those people who would have absolutely NO idea what to do with himself as an ordinary private citizen. The USMC was the only place he felt at home. The thought of being a civilian working a regular job was either too boring or too terrifying for him. I guess some people are just hardwired for an order-following (and order-giving) disciplined military life.
He was willing to be dishonorably discharged as long as he was adjudicated guilty. He was hoping for the ideal situation, though, where the truth came out and they were cleared of all charges. A far-fetched hope, to be certain, but that was the sort of guy he was: Aim for the top and if he missed, then at least he tried. He just didn't do anything half-assed.
@@jesusnthedaisychain yeah i suppose so.
I like the Irony that was brought into this. The one reason Dawson wanted to fight the case out, is that he wanted to remain in the Marines. In the ed, it was the one thing they lost on. He was dishonorably discharged from the Marine Corp
During the end when Tom leaves the room expecting a salute, the guy essentially dissed him twice. For ignoring Tom’s rebuttal for one, and to have his hands in his pockets is never allowed in the military at all 😅
Its ONLY allowed during rifle range qualifying when the weather is really cold outside.
@ I’m talking about being in the presence of an officer. You can do as you fancy amongst the people ranked near you, but if an officer is around you have to be presentable always
"10" for sure. The whole movie is a solid "10".
AMEN.
I know Marine and Army terms...
I choose AMEN LORD.
GOD BLESS US EVERYONE EVERYWHERE. 🌎🕊😁❤🇨🇦🌍👊🖖
He literally killed his fellow Marine and he feels no guilt cuz he was commanded to do so. Meanwhile, his commanding officers are lying and covering their own asses while he twists in the wind. That’s messed up.
1:47 Tom Cruise looks almost amazed that someone is yelling at HIM this time.
Lmaooo
How this scene should have ended:
"What ever happened to saluting an officer when he leaves the room"
"We don't salute officers when they aren't in uniform, sir."
"Oh, right. My mistake."
You do salute officers when they are not in uniform under some circumstances.
@@derekharp2805 That wouldn't be one of them, though.
Actually, that's one of the biggest mistakes this movie makes regarding military protocol. In the Marines and Navy, salutes are never rendered indoors, and not without cover (a hat). Instead, in the presence of an officer, you stand at attention until told otherwise.
Are they supposed to salute a higher rank from a different branch? Must a private in the Army salute/obey a lieutenant in the Air Force, for example?
@@ironcito1101 Yes, all enlisted personel are required to salute all officers, regardless of their branch of service.
That marine's rant actually moved me to tears! Brilliant!
He actually is a better actor than Cruise.
Maybe I didn't get the plot, but didn't Downey just beat a fellow Marine to death? And he's hiding behind the ol' 'following orders' defense?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but seems like hell of a position to go on a high-roading honour rant, calling people cowards and asking around if you did the right thing.
@@paksta You are absolutely right and it's why I love but hate this movie. It's a great movie, but there is absolutely no justification for their actions. There is no honor between either of them. They abandoned their oath the moment they obeyed an unlawful order. When you take the oath of enlistment you swear to obey orders according to regulations and the UCMJ. It's a military members duty to not carry out an unlawful order. That is drilled pretty hard into people in the military. It's also made clear that if you carry out an unlawful order, you cannot defend yourself by saying "I was just following orders"
@@ghostgoose4067 thanks very much, that's a really cool insight 👍good to know those safeguards and guidance exist.
Then you've missed the entirety of the movie's plot and main point. The code and the zeal has its legal limits and the character of Dawson recognises this after the verdict at the end of the movie.
So Dawson doesn't even see what they did as wrong and would do it again. Lock them up and throw away the key. Next.
Hands in the pockets to those in the veteran community know how significant that act is especially in this situation
The ultimate sign of disrespect!
Marines don't salute indoors unless they're wearing a cover, and you don't wear a cover indoors without a duty belt.
Maybe it is because it is a movie!
The one exception to saluting indoors/uncovered is if you are 'reporting in' to a senior officer (or taking your leave from that); not sure this is really the case here. One source (of 3) did, however, say salutes aren't rendered to persons out of uniform, although that was not my experience.
@@Ristopistox
No shit, Spock.
Why can't y'all just say "hat"
@@NickTheNewbie Many times it's a helmet...
"You're such a coward. I can't believe they let you wear a uniform."
That's the worst insult you can give to an officer of any arm forces.
Says the man who has beaten up a sick dude, even when he knew that "Code Red" is not condoned by the US military.
You know for all his posturing and moral righteousness here, involuntary manslaughter is literally the exact crime Dawson committed. At least he realized that by the end, I guess.
technically he only realized he was guilty of conduct unbecoming
He didn't confess to a crime that he didn't commit. He did what he did after receiving what he believed to be an order to do so, from an authority figure he was bound to respect. He was responsible for the outcome (the death), but he had no way to know that this would be the outcome, and thus could NOT be guilty of murder. What he "postured" about was that he would not confess to a lesser crime as a way of evading responsibility for a greater crime that he did not commit.
He accepted the consequences of this, as he said he would in the beginning. What he did not do is lie about what he did or why he did it just to get off easy. That is what honor is all about, and it is not "righteousness"
I have watched some Navy people on RUclips review this movie, including a Real Navy JAG officer. He loved the movie but says there are so many things wrong about it. 1) A Colonel about to be a General does not care if a private rats out a Corporal. 2) There is no internal affairs in the Navy JAG corps, everyone is supposed to keep an eye on everyone else 3) You do not charge enlisted with conduct unbecoming. That is for officers. Enlisted are usually kids between 18 and 20 and are expected to do dumb things. They give them awards and accommodations for not being stupid.4) Jessup's testimony is not admissible once the judge ruled Kaffee out of order.
I worked along side some marines when I was in the Australian navy. I was in the cardio room on a rowing machine when a group came in. They were all completely jacked, and absolute units. They discussed what their routine was gonna involve and they just came alive, they were animals
It was impressive, loved seeing that
My claim to fame is that during the inter service cross country run (I was voluntold I’d be competing) I beat one marine. Literally every other marine on base finished ahead of me but I got ahead of one. For an Aussie engineering sailor who worked with electricity and smoked and drank too much I was bloody proud of that
The portrayal of marines in this scene brought me back haha
Love how instead of saluting (which you don't do indoors in this situation), he put on his "Air Force gloves" as we called putting your hands in your pockets.
The pay is the same
Is that what it is ? It’s a sign of disrespect or what?
Never served in the military but am 100% addicted to sayings like "air force gloves" and the like LOL. Between all branches they are really funny to a simple civilian 😂 have a great day
Seconds later he was spotted walking on the goddamn grass too!
Involuntary manslaughter is exactly what they did. Yes, they were ordered to give Santiago a code red, but unless they were told specifically to shove a rag into his throat, they chose the method for the hazing, so they have to bear some responsibility for Santiago’s accidental death.
The method does not matter at all, it just made things even worse. Code Red is not condoned by the US military, even if it's a trend at whatever shithole they're stationed at.
If Dawson was so loyal to his Unit and Corps, why didn't he take one for the team and pleaded guilty? In doing that his unit wouldn't be touched.
Because the Corps live by a code of honor. He believed what he did was in keeping with that code. A guilty plea would essentially be lying in his eyes, a fate worse than death.
@@pathfinderlight Never really got this logic. These marines honestly believed that they will be exonerated for blindly following a highly illegal and immoral order from a superior officer? Is the stereotype of Marines being stupid true?
@@d.maxwell8669 they were taught by the marines to do code reds and probably had code reds happen to them. what do you think these guys are regular people they are marines there’s a deeper connection and set of values.
@@icecoldpolitics8890So you're confirming that Marines are indeed stupid? It's one thing to genuinely believe in a code, but it's another to be so utterly ignorant of military rules that one would whole heartedly believe that they will not be dishonorably discharged for being the direct cause of the death of a fellow marine as a result of blindly following an illegal order. Being devoted to a code is different from being mentally brain dead.
A civilian just couldn't understand.
Cruise may be a nut-job but he can act.
lol
From location manager to principle role opposite Tom Cruise. Amazing
Man. Tom Cruise is criminally underrated as an actor. I know he's an idol and hearthrob. And criticized widely as well. But he's actually a great actor. Damn impressive. To me, this was one of his best movies. Maybe his best. So damn good. So confident. At such a young age.
0:56 the piece de resistance!
USMC tidbit: Not only did he not salute him (which he really couldn't do anyways) he put his hands in his pockets which is something Marines do not do. A subtlety that makes this seen even better.
He was later seen walking on the grass. THE GRASS.
Chesty would argue that one. 'a fool has cold hands and empty pockets'
Please stop adding the captions. They're never correct.
It was only by sheer luck that these two didn't end up spending the rest of their lives in prison. In the real world, Jessup wouldn't have cracked and these two idiots would have had the book thrown at them.
Lucky for Kaffee, Jessup lived entirely in his own self-created, power-trip world where he thought every single order he gave was highly necessary, and anyone who thought otherwise was an ignorant idiot who doesn't understand how to defend a country. Kaffee was really good at reading people, and he realized this was the case with Jessup when he met him in Cuba.
You’d be surprised how you can manipulate someone with an ego. Just the fact that Jessup had to go to trial was a blow to his pride. Jessup will not tolerate questions because in his dogmatic view of the world the ends justifies the means. Granted I agree, chances are he wouldn’t be suckered in to a confession but it is possible to manipulate the outcome by pushing the correct buttons. It depends on how big a blowhard the person is. In this film, Jessup was the worst kind.
@@SelectiveApathy82 In real life Jessup would not have made it to that rank.
@@andy99ish My guess is he never screwed up this badly before. And overall, he was really competent at running the Gitmo base. When he ordered the Code Red he must have thought he was untouchable at that point in his career.
@@SelectiveApathy82 This cannot be excluded. Yet I doubt it: As a colonel he is middle+management. A totally exaggerated ego would have collided with the hierarchical structure much earlier. On the other hand as colonel he is not even close to untouchable status and he would know that. The scene in which he sarcastically orders to be connected with the POTUS is at odds with his rank.
I still love the movie, but as I've gotten older it's dawned on me how the writing doesn't hold up wonderfully.
- it's insanely negligent that they don't take the absolute sweetheart deal. They were dead to rights in the trial, and fell ass-backwards into winning simply because it's a movie & Sorkin could make the resolution as implausible as he wanted.
- the moral grounds argument for not taking the deal doesn't even make sense. They were being offered involuntary manslaughter charges. They shoved a rag down a guy's throat and he choked to death on his own blood. That wasn't their intention but it happened. That's involuntary manslaughter! You did do something wrong Dawson.
I guess the point is they were so brainwashed by the code they believed that being given an order exonerated them of any blame.
I mean he already dishonored himself, his unit, and the Marines by obeying a obviously unlawful and immoral order that resulted in the death of another Marine.
HE didn't see it that way. I UNDERSTAND you don't have the balls or heart to serve your country, but it isn't morally black and white as you are making it.
@@gideondavid30 The order was to train him (haze him) not to kill him but it's an Hollywood movie.
Dawson had already gotten in trouble for disobeying an order when he gave Pvt. Bell food. He couldn’t risk disobeying another order.
@@nocalsteve of course he could risk disobeying an illegal order. he had an obligation to give up his life, if necessary, in the service of the corps, which includes disobeying illegal orders. The idea that it was okay for him to shirk his duty out of fear of mere punishment is an insult to the very code he's advocating so strongly.
@@deathfire096 ... and hazing sometimes results in death. there's no unrealism about that.
"What happened to saluting an officer when he leaves a room?" "Well sir if you know anything about the Navy or Marine Corps you would know we don't salute indoors unless under arms". That is how this scene should have ended.
If you know anything about artistic license, then you would not have posted that.
@@alwayssomething8572 I do and I did. It isn't hard to do your homework when making a movie.
@@alwayssomething8572 If the movie was smart enough to know Marines are quite fanatical to our Corps then it should be smart enough to know its most basic rules and regulations.
@@Ronfost89 yeah, you're right. Movie sucked!
Funny thing is they WERE guilty of manslaughter for killing Santiago
At least they went down fighting and took jessip down.
At least they went down fighting and took jessip down.
Cruise can really act. These Mission movies are his money makers but I wish he really try more drama.
Agree. Rainman and Born on the Fourth of July demonstrated that Cruise is an excellent dramatic actor
Demy Moore’s reaction was “omg if they are alone in this room dawson will break danny in a half” lol
You don't salute someone not in uniform, that's basic shit.
Bullshit. If the battalion or company commander come into the orderly room off hours wearing their civilian clothes it's your ass if you don't pop them a salute.
@@Easy-Eight
Must be a Marine thing. In the Navy, that's a big nope!
That's not true. Marines salute officers who are not in uniform as long as they themselves are in uniform and are absolutely sure it's an officer in civilian clothing. Marines even salute a pov (personally owned vehicle), with a blue placard on it indicating that the vehicle is owned by an officer. The officer never has to salute back, however most officers will do this courtesy, or request that all Marines remove their covers so no saluting of any kind occurs. Generals usually do this because there are too many people to salute on a base.
That’s his letterman jacket from All The Right Moves
Demi Moore is such a pretty babe in this . Damn
In the real world, you should take the 6 months. I am over 60, in all that time, no one except for a government job or school ever asked me for my DD214 or diploma's.
Same with me. All my civilians jobs they never ask me about by military DD214 especially after 10 years.
@@deathfire096 Or my HS diploma, College Diploma, LOL
He never acted before this movie. Insane but genius at the same time.
Dont matter. Competent directors can sell everything. Its called editing.
@@mskidi it's called CASTING... not editing.
@@135incorporated9 Nope, its called editing.
Why didn't Dawson bail out Downey by saying that he issued an order to deliver the Code Red?
Because that wasn't the truth.
@@GaryKlineCA Kendrick gave the order, but it was Dawson's responsibility to tell his lawyer that Downey wasn't in the room when Kendrick gave it. Both these Marines were dumb as rocks, especially Downey. They had the mentality of 6-year olds......."We didn't tell you because you didn't ask us!". Jesus christ I bet Kaffee wanted to punch them both in the face.
@@GaryKlineCA Actually it was. Kendrick never gave Downey any orders after the meeting where he told everyone not to touch Santiago. Downey was on his way to the barracks when he had a blown tire in his jeep... so Dawson was the only one who was actually given the order. Yet Dawson told the order to Downey, so even if Kendrick's order was for both guys or just Dawson, Dawson was the one who gave the order to Downey.
Indeed, the more I watch this film, the more I dislike the character of Dawson. He intentionally obfuscates the truth from the beginning because he doesn't like Cruise's character and seems more than willing to allow both him and Downey to burn to satisfy his own ego.
@@v2micca Now that is an interesting observation. Indeed there is an instinct to cover higher up, both on the Downey-Dawson and the Dawson-Kendrick lines. I wonder how that is compatible with the honor- based absolute imperative to tell the truth no matter what.
The costume choice in this scene is excellent.
Caffy wears a letter jacket like a school boy while he argues with Dawson in full military uniform.
Basically represents the conflict between American lifestyles/luxury and the force needed to protect and maintain that luxury present throughout the movie
Lt Kafee: You're going to Fort Leavenworth for the best part of your life, you know what? I don't give a sh*t.
LCpl Dawson: Yes Sir, I know you DON'T Sir !
The Marines had a point. Going home means nothing if everyone looks down their moral nose at you for the rest of your life. They were innocent and had the right to fight for that.
I would've asked him where Jessup and Kendrick's honor were...
A common theme in this thread is that Dawson is guilty and he should have been dishonorably discharged. Remember in the final scene Dawson explains to Downey that according to their code “we were supposed to fight for those who couldn’t fight for themselves. We were supposed to fight for Willie”
Loved when she shoved his hands in his pockets. Classic FU to an officer you don't respect.
The actor that played Dawson was actually the original location scout manager. Rob Reiner had him audition and he got the role. He had never acted a day in his life.
When I saw this as it came out in 1993, some people laughed at about 1:45. I think the idea of turning down the deal when only six months' time would be served struck them as absurd.
it's a gift and you don't mess with a court martial. You have a choice of life or 6 months, you take the 6 months and stay away from a trial.
Dawson putting his hands in his pockets is powerful. Anyone who has served knows thats a huge sign of disrespect. He may as well have flipped him off. Its the same thing, really.
“What happened to saluting an officer when he leaves the room.” I love how they made Kaffee suddenly give a shit about etiquette so they could set up that feel good moment at the end where Harold salutes him 😂
3:14 "What happened to saluting an officer when he leaves the room?" Nothing! Even if he entered the room there would be no salute if an officer with superior rank wears civilian clothes.... 😂 You salute the rank not the person. At least in my country's armed forces. 🤣
Dawson knows. Kaffee doesn't. Remember Kaffee has only been an officer for a few months at this point. Dawson knows the proper procedures better, hence why he mocks with the hands in pocket.
The whole speach about how he doesnt want to be dishonerably dischanged, and then thats exactly what happened at tje end of the movie
In reality, a dishonorable discharge would not be on the table given the failure of the major charges. They likely would get a general discharge - considering the only charge sustained was "Conduct Unbecoming a United States Marine" (for the sake of argument let's call that General Article, since Conduct Unbecoming only applies to officers).
@@katherineberger6329 - interesting, thanks
No, he didn't want to be dishonorably discharged on a plea. He said he would accept his punishment if the COURT found him wrong and that is what happened. He then had his own ah-ha moment and realized what he should have done. I think he could live with the discharge that way, but not for bailing out to save himself.
@@krisherman3513 he could have done that by a plea and saved everyone a lot of trouble. allocute and then if the court accepts a guilty plea, accept the court's judgement. The court has the right to refuse to accept a guilty plea if the facts allocuted to do not support a conviction.
That whole back and forth was to see if Harold wouldn’t salute him at the end. By not saluting an officer showed he wasn’t a robot who only took orders and could think for himself ✅
Tom Cruise did some overacting in a few scenes in this movie, but it's ok, Jack Nicholson saved it
So much for that code huh? Willing to go to jail forever basically for that code...but he wouldn't fully follow said code anyway, by refusing to salute..strange.
Zipty doo dah and Merry Christmas, boys.
I think i read that the guy playing Harold was a walk-on or something. Powerful performance.
This show had good advisors. Harold's reaction is not that of a peace-time soldier. That comes from a 'Nam vet. And when they'd get like that..?! It's "combat-mode," and you'd never let them get like that..cold-sweat.
Oh Bullshit. This came out in 1992, Vietnam for the US ended in '74 and even by that stage it was on afterburners. Dawson doesn't look like he's even out of his early twenties, he would have had to have been at least 45 to have been anywhere near Vietnam. For reference, Jessup mentions he and Markinson are 'Nam vets and they look like stale beef jerky. Dawson would have been in the Marine Corps for 18 years and somehow still be a Lance Corporal despite being an "exemplary marine". Besides, they bring up during Kendrick's cross examination that Dawson had only recently completed School of Infantry.
@@dawski4697 I didn't "read more." You're out of your league. "Spanish Castle Magic," troop..
@@dawski4697 You're right. ..Tell me how you are right..again.
Harold's reaction is Hollywood, a disciplined soldier does not lose control like that in an .... office
It's a bit weird for Dawson to call Kaffee a cowards when it was him and Downey who hazed Santiago...
that's not Dawson, Dawson left the room, they did it because of an order
They obeyed orders. Did you see the movie? 😀
@@Ristopistox yes, they did, and I saw the movie. And do you know that following an order is only an excuse if they were under the impression that what they did otherwise wasn't illegal? You can't do anything just because it's an order whether you're in the army or not.
@@25756881 so if your Lieutenant say "kill this man" you can say "no, because it is illegal"?
@@Ristopistox Yes outside a war, totally yes.
1:33 “But I believe I was right, sir. I believe I did my job, and I _will not dishonor myself, my unit, or the Corps so that I can go home in six months!”_
“Wow…I’m sexually aroused, Lance Corporal.”
Kaffee could've responded to Dawson when he asked 'do you think we were right?' With
'Do you think the Nazis were right?'
They should be in jail for a very long time.
It's this part of the movie where the script dies. Tom Cruise and Jack Nicholson do their best to carry it... but it falls in a heap.
Lance Corporal Dawson was a class act. Foxhole dude💯💪🏼
quite the opposite. he didn't have the guts to stand up for his fellow marines, either santiago or downey. He let santiago die (if unintentionally) and he let downey follow him into legal jeopardy because he didn't have the guts to rectify the contradictory set of illegal orders he was given. He acted not out of principle, as kendrick did, but out of fear of punishment. he put his own wellbeing, his performance reviews, ahead of the wellbeing of his fellow marines. He was a maggot, not a man, when it counted.
These 2 are the reason another marine is dead, but 6 months is too much for good ol Harold…
Demi Moore's character did them no favors. She really deluded them into thinking they could get off Scott-Free..
Sounds like you feel like buying me a bus ticket
0:43
Such a good movie
The Marines were guilty. There is no way they would have a career in the military after the trial. Dishonorable Discharge is the least of their worries. It only means they can't work for the federal government ever again. The #1 issue is life in prison when they can go home in 6 months and start a new life in the civilian world. They are very young and can be with their families. They can always apply for an upgrade in their discharge. What they have to avoid is life in prison not the type of discharge but this is a Hollywood movie full of holes.
Dawson always pissed me off in this movie.
Why
He came across as a stereotype of a Marine
@@robertisham5279He's a delusional robot who doesn't accept responsibility for his actions.
@@robertisham5279he's an aggressive hypocrite. tends to rub people the wrong way.
Even naval officers know Marines don't salute when uncovered.
Damn that was a good movie - top 10 for sure!
Tom was so deep in character that after being called a coward, he took it to heart and started on his journey of crazier and more dangerous stunts. Now we all salute him.
Well said.
going after jack nicholson is a dangerous stunt indeed, you never know if he's going to rip the eyes out of your head and piss in your skull
Its Indian remake Shaurya (2008) is slightly better as you can actually understand the motives of the Characters and their actions.
The next scene right after he cleared the room should have been Tom Cruise punching Harold in the jaw as hard as he could, and then a general brawl breaking out.
Harold would mop the floor with Kaffee. Kaffee was Navy. They don't teach you how to fight in general navy. He would have to be a navy seal. Harold was a marine. It's all they are taught how to do. Fight and kill. Navy teaches you how to use a gun. Not fight.
Dawson would destroy Kaffee in a fight. Absolutely crush him.
Kaffee could hit that jaw as hard as he could and I doubt Dawson’s head would move an inch. Lol
@@slipperysloper3721 hahahah
@@SelectiveApathy82 I've seen Kaffee do some pretty crazy shit to much bigger guys in his other movies, even several guys at once, I wouldn't be so sure.
Saying no to the order would of received the same punishment as murder.
Only in Hollywood. IRL, Marines will not be fired for refusing to obey an illegal order. Well, they may be fired, but if they took their case to court, they would win and be reinstated. Following illegal orders is itself illegal.
Would of it? Would you like to of an apple? Do you of the time? I can of spaghetti. Are "of" and "have" still interchangeable to you?
@@joes4194 typed like a person that doesn't actually understand how language works...
very very few words, if any, are entirely interchangeable. even so called synonyms.
but even more than that, there are no actual 'rules' for a language. the ones you learned in school are only 'rules' in the same way the 'laws of motion' are laws. that is to say, they're not prescriptive. they're descriptive. in other words, we create rules to describe the language as it currently exists. the language doesn't conform to the rules we make. (unless its an artificial language, like klingon, or elfish). languages change, evolve...so there's literally nothing wrong with colloqquially using 'of' that way, in that sentence
@@sillyking1991 Of a downvote for trying to hard to defend idiocy.
@@joes4194 lmao, oh no, you downvoted me, what ever shall i do?!?!? Noooooo!!!!
Marines don't salute without a cover and Marines don't wear covers indoors while not acting as a duty. Sir.
It's interesting. Harold was very much right here. On all levels and from all perspectives.
no, he was very much wrong, on all levels and from all perspectives. He had an obligation to disobey illegal orders - not just from a purely mechanical, legal standpoint but from the very code of honor he refers to. he had an obligation to obey the chain of command, not just its most immediate link. He failed to do that in the moment - failed to rectify the contradictory orders he was given, out of fear of punishment - that is to say, out of cowardice. He was a coward, not a real man. He committed a crime which (unintentionally) caused the death of one of his fellow marines. That makes him guilty of involuntary manslaughter, the very charge offered to him in the plea bargain. As a matter of honor, he had an obligation to plead guilty to that charge. In fairness, Kaffee never answers the question (as he should have done) "yes, you are guilty". But as a matter of honor harold absolutely should be pleading guilty to conduct unbecoming at least when they go to trial. He eventually admits his guilt at the end of the film. In the meantime he is unjustifiably obstructionist and puts downey in unjustifiable legal jeopardy - even if harold was going to insist on a not guilty plea he should at least have prevailed on downey to take the plea bargain.
I would think the ending of the movie proves otherwise. It was an illegal order and even if it wasn’t, the objective of a code red is not to kill its victim. At the end of the day, it could be argued he decided to fight out of his own ego, not for a sense of justice. He admitted his own guilt in the end.
The brave and honorable thing to do would have been to stand up to LT Kendrick and tell him no, not blindly follow the order.
Bottoms up=
They all are guilty!
harold has zero control of his emotions,
id hate to see him under pressure in the field
I used to think Dawson was being an idiot by not taking the deal, until i read what's involved in a dishonorable discharge. You've pretty much got less rights than a criminal!
Didn't they just kill a fellow Marine?
@@paksta Not deliberately. The Marine had a medical condition they didn't know about. So it was manslaughter, but they were following orders.
@@Spacegoat92 Is it manslaughter when you are beating the crap out of someone? I thought that's more if you're over the speed limit or something. Either way, I think the most likely outcome then would be manslaughter with the higher end of possible sentencing. Kaffee got them a great deal.
@@paksta Murder is pre meditated. You went in with the intent of killing that person. That's why there's attempted murder and not attempted manslaughter. Killing someone while driving over the speed limit would be more along the lines of culpable driving.
Manslaughter is when the intention was, the end result was your target would still be alive but it didn't go that way. Say you got into a fight with someone and you gave them a good shove and they tripped and smashed their head on the ground and died. You didn't wanna kill him, but he still died, that's manslaughter. But there are varying degrees of manslaughter and it can get pretty tricky when you go down that rabbit hole. As most legal issues are.
But have a read up on what it means to be dishonourably discharged. You lose a whole lot of rights that you once had. You're basically going from a position of respect to the bottom wrung of society. Understandable that an honour driven Marine would find such a thing unfathomable.
@@Spacegoat92 This is very intetesting, cheers. I still think it was a pretty good deal Kaffee got them, but I understand their concern.
But as opposing lawyer, it seems like it would be easy to prove that they had premeditated intent to cause serious pain, that put Santiago at obvious risk of serious injury or worse.
Feels like they were always gonna get dishonourable discharge (which did happen), so they really shot a hail-mary for minimal gain. Kaffee was right the whole time.
Navy and Marines don't salute in doors unless they're wearing a cover for some reason. So....yeah
Interesting. If you knew how to spell "indoors" I might believe you.
And that was his first acting job ever.
You have a duty to disobey unlawful orders.
Why won't you ask me?
Dammit that’s right Harold told him
Cool scene but sailors and marines don’t salute indoors.
Conduct unbecoming a Marine or service member. Dishonorable discharge.
THAT MARINE IS A GOOD ACTOR
Perfect brain wash scene.....duh..but i was told to do wrong....duhhhhhhh
This movie could have been kept within 10 minutes had Caffee not dealth with some lab rats, my days