This modular hotend seriously impressed me! (Slice Engineering Copperhead Review)
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2020
- The Slice Engineering Copperhead is a really good, but crazy expensive hotend. But you're doing it wrong if you're paying for the full set of components to make use of its advantages - here's why!
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450C enough to 3D print solder
gonna need some ventilation fr 😂
Nah anyone whos ever soldered a lot has felt the effects of solder fumes and lived
Time to print some solder
there are kinds of solder that melt at only 290-300 C
That's kinda genius
Around minute 9 when the little part kept rolling off the desk until you put it straight, IDK why but I found it very funny.
Bed leveling needed 🤭
jajajaajjaaja nice catch!
I recommend thinly applying the paste to the thread on the nozzle and heatbreak before inserting into the heat block and don't apply to the heat block. I also avoid getting it close to the end of the threads so it doesn't squeeze into the gap as tightening them up.
At leas tthis is the trick I use with the Mosquito.
They really need to make a water cooled motor and heat break version. With a rating of 450C you can get into some great engineering plastics. Pull the other motors and electronics outside of the heated chamber and pump a lot of heat inside and you could print in ultem or even PEEK.
VisionMinor is a company that showcased printers that do this
They did just release a watercooled mosquito!
I have ordered couple of parts printed in PEEK some time ago (no chance I'm letting it anywhere near my current printer). That thing is damn indestructible. I was impressed by injection molded nylon's strength, but this is whole another level. It actually matched solid brass in my liquid pressure testing without coming apart.
Already do. PEEK and ULTEM are incredible systems to use. But as you pointed out, we burn steepers like some people throw away their nozels.
but peek is insanely expensive. What hobbyist is going to be able to afford $600 per kilogram?
Great impartial, unbiased review. Love how you covered all the various aspects of the hotend. Pleasure to watch. Can't wait for the next video.
This review seems a little off to me. You're comparing what I would recommend as the minimum for a hotend, A genuine V6, to what is advertised as a high end hotend. I would prefer to see it on more equal footing. Copper V6, titanium heatbreak, and Nozzle X. As you stated the price still favors E3d, but what about quality and performance when they are one more equal footing?
Indeed!
This! Throw it up against a comparable E3d setup!
Thermals from hardened steel to brass are about 10c.... so that's obvi off a tad.
Great review Thomas, I'm glad I can count on you for the true redeeming value of content because you know what really matters. That hot end is totally trick, and I love the interchangeability. Thank you," these are things I need to know right now. "You are on the job."
This video basically sums up my thoughts on all of the Slice Engineering products, they are definitely not for everyone, but they really shine in their specific applications.
I’ve had that heat break in my printed solid cart for weeks now. I had to go ahead and finish my order as soon as I saw you put this out.
You can almost buy an entire Ender 3 for the price of this thing
Actually you can now buy an ender 3 pro for less!
Was thinking the same and the incremental quality of using this is not worth the cost. Over engineered to get another 2% quality.
Or 2 Anet A9 when they are on sale for 70$ each
@@darknessblades the problem with that is that your house will be gone.
There are Ender 3 s on AliExpress for 167 USD with free shipping to eu from eu warehouse.
Thank you again for an excellent video. The detail you give and your wealth of knowledge is incredible.
Lately I don't really consider buying items for my printers unless you review them. It's almost like buying it myself and doing all the testing myself with zero risk.
God, the profit margins on each of these components is insane (probably not)...
i wouldn’t assume that
No, American labor is very expensive, and they aren't producing these with enough volume to benefit from large economies of scale.
Everyone is an expert on the internet... ha
Can't say that at all. What's the volume? How long does each take to manufacture? I agree the prices seem high, but if they are producing 100 per day? Not even covering your equipment costs at that point, not to mention labor, overhead, MRO, etc. Until you know everything that goes into the manufacturing it's all assumption. That said...this is really expensive for what it is in the end.
@@MalignSociety yep...considering I am a cost estimator that deals in costs of parts, there isn't enough information given to state "The profit margins on each of these components is insane". So much goes into part cost, volume, manufacture location, equipment being used, labor costs, all of that is just a start. At first I was "woah, pricey", then I said "wait, low volume, high overhead to start...probably not that far off the mark"...
Good info! I have been considering upgrading My Raised3D E2 to these hotends and this video certainly help confirm the quality.
I really wish they would use a set screw or something to better hold the thermistor and heater. Thermal paste is supposed to be used to enhance metal to metal contact by filling in imperfections...but that contact is still supposed to be metal to metal. Slice seems to think thermal paste goes between the 2 metal surfaces.
Excellent video! Please make more like this
Tom, I appreciate you but i think you need to do a part 2 video. This video only compares the two hotends from the perspective of someone who only wants to print pretty chachkies in pla. While this is most of your viewers, I don't think it's the intended market for this hotend. I think this hotend is more geared toward being a budget alternative to the high temp/ engineering grade plastics hotends. So, How do the two hotends compare at high temps? What does the difference in heatsink Temps look like at elevated temp? Can you get away with not using a fan to cool the heatsink?
P. S. While I agree initial hardness is important when evaluating nozzles, it's equally as important to understand how the hardness will change as the nozzles temper over time, this becomes even more important when printing high temp filled plastics.
The tool steel in the Vanadium nozzle was specifically chosen for high hot hardness.
If you want to measure the temperature of a piece of aluminum, don't use a thermal camera if you don't adjust the emissivity for the material
I think this was pointed out to Tom in a different video as well.... can't believe he did the same thing again lol.
I'm very aware of this, which is why I was looking at the lower section of the heatsink at an angle. The fact that both the direct measurement as well as the visible reflections only hit the heatsink, it should be a fairly accurate reading.
Thanks so much for the video Tom!
Is there any video demonstrating the non stick properties of the nozzle X?
I love the design and love that there is innovation going on. Great video btw. My printer runs on 24V (I think) Is there an easy way to upgrade this or can I even use it?
I purchased a copperhead for my home built coreXY & I personally love it. I purchased the full basic kit groove mount kit. The only things I did not purchase was the fan. Since I put it together and pid tuned it I have not had to mess with it. I have not even had to clean filament off the nozzle. Maybe I have just been lucky with it so far and am glad if so. Only time will tell if it was truly worth it. I have already gone through a couple V6 hotends. If this copperhead last long enough then it definitely would have been worth it.
I will say one annoying thing about it though. The thermal paste is a bit messy. For anyone that uses their thermal paste be mindful that in the tip of the syringe for it the paste will dry up and harden. Tale a needle and make sure to clear it out before you put any pressure bin trying to squeeze some out. If you don't that harder plug of the paste will pop out and the paste will ooze out quite fast. I had mine do that and it got all over the place. 🥴
It sounds like a different thermal paste might be needed. Once it hardens does its heat transfer properties change and get worse?
@@reasonablebeing5392 I'm not sure if it changes properties much. All thermal paste tends to harden or dry out over time. The paste that slice engineering uses has a more liquid like consistency while sealed inside the tube. Once outside in the open air it will tend to change to a more paste like substance. Especially when you start to apply it.
What a brilliant idea, taking advantage from the modular design! :D
2:14: that key drop ring ...
In my experience (with full copperhead) the flow rate rivals my volcano but has more control when changing temps (less overshoot).
Still waiting on flows rates directly from slice on copperhead, I bet it’s close to mosquito.
Also for the idex folks, with full copperhead, you can set height of each nozzle very easily and accurately.
I tried copper Volcano, at speed less than 100 mmps no difference, but as a bonus it stopped working with Duet WiFi after PID tuning due to very long heat up time.
what is the stock mosquito max flow rate? i've only found data for the magnum
wow! very helpful !! thanks Thomas..
You should also take a look at trianglelab dragon, I've used it for almost 6 months and it's really good
Yes please Tom
I haven't heard much great about it, mainly bad quality control.
@@squirrelrobotics from who? Voron team liked it very much
@@squirrelrobotics I have one too, quality is top notch. I've tried dragon's from other manufacturers and they suuuuuck compared to Trianglelab. It doesn't get much better directly from china at the price point.
@@squirrelrobotics both the phaetus and triangle labs dragons are top notch. Everything else out there sold as a dragon is a cheap clone.
the heater block looks really nice
thank you for the review
The magic is the heatbreak. Install it on a V6 and u get the same perf. Remember to get V6 copper to go over 300c
Brass is abt 2x steel in thermal conductivity... not equal
...which Thomas mentions at 11:43
@@davidf2281 yeah. But first he mention the thermal performance is pretty close in 5:28
@@pjak2000 Probably because the nozzle is also pretty thin. I didn't find any difference when I moved from brass to stainless steel nozzles.
@3:30 - Thomas mentioned both thermal conductivity and thermal mass. Conductivity of copper is much better than aluminium, but thermal mass is about the same (how much heat is ‘stored’ in the material).
This should mean that heat can be transferred from the heating cartridge to the material more efficiently, but you won’t get much capability to feed plastic faster.
@11:45 - You are correct that steel has about half the thermal conductivity of brass, however. The comment on steel vs brass thermal conductivity as “slightly lower” is a bit misleading.
I did wonder about this myself, when I ordered stainless steel nozzles. I then ordered tool steel nozzles, assuming that the stainless ones might in fact cause problems due to excessive cooling before the plastic exited the nozzle. (I have not yet checked this. The stainless nozzles I ordered have too deep a threaded section, in any case - derp.)
@Tom You should try swaping just the heatbreak, just the nozzle and all stock E3D with a nitride-boron heat paste. Also, but slightly harder to do, measure the nozzle and block temperature with external termocouple while extruding a set amount of material. It's not impossibly the difference in performance you're seeing is actually because copperhead simply gets to a higher temperature from secondary effects, say more loosely coupled termistor.
While it is nice to see companies like E3D making good parts that are priced for the home user, it's definitely time to see companies making high-end parts for more commercial applications, where there is more budget available. I think Slice will successfully push this envelope, and I can't wait to see what they do next.
I've always had issues with my e3d parts but I now have a mosquito and a copperhead on a v6 heat break and have had zero issues for over 4 months.
Yup. This is the kind of hot end you'd want to put on say a high end RailCore or Voron build designed to print things like Nylon/PEEK. I wouldn't put this on a Ender 3 for example.
Honestly I wish there was even cheaper proper all metal alternatives to v6. The clones are so cheap in comparison and work just as fine in a lot of the cases.
@@gagehughes2297 The only issue I had with E3D hot end parts is back when I first bought a v5 and didn't assemble it right. I think this was a communication issue as they don't provide docs with the parts and at the time they didn't even put a card with a link to the documentation in with the kit. Once I assembled it right it was fine.
@@JeffDM i watched their video several times and I know I had it assembled correctly. I never had thermister issues with the v6 just the volcano. It puts it at a extremely tight angle and when you printer moves it would flex a little and over time they would break.
I watched a number of videos on cleaning a hot end, but they all used the bowden tube to push it all the way through the heat block. With the Copperhead it wont allow the bowden tube to move all the way through. So how do you clean it, I looked for a bit but couldnt find a video
Thanks
Thermistors would not measure above 250°C (as far as I know). The thermometer on the Copperhead must be a thermocouple. Is Marlin prepared to work with thermocouples?
First: there are standard thermistors which can go higher. Then, you have the platinum based PT100 and PT1000 thermistors which can go up to over 800°C and which have the additional benefit of an inverted curve relative to the normal thermistors, I.e. a higher temperature returns a higher resistance. This helps since a broken wire results in over reading the temperature which results in the regulator turning off the heater. Thermocouples are by far the least favorable choice as they produce a tiny voltage that you have to measure accurately which needs a shielded cable and an instrumentation amplifier.
@@christophmuller3511 Thank you for the explanation, Christoph. I appreciate. I did not know about the PT100 and PT1000.
Thomas is back ❤️❤️❤️
Hi Thomas do I have to use the slice engineering boron nitride padte for holding the het brakevinside the hester block or can I use another paste.
I thing it is a professional tool: if you have money and want to print with exotic filaments go on and buy a coperhead. But an e3d V6 suits all of my and the most people's needs, I don't print with PEEK, PEI and other exotic filament.
I like the screws to hold the thermistors in. On mine, the head of the grub screw always gets stripped when trying to remove it, with e3d and all others heat blocks.
Wonderful video
2:14 That "ring" was so satisfying ^^
Jesus, came to the comments to make sure I wasn't the only one.
@@djg500 Yes?
can the copperhead be used insted of phatus dragon in the Voron 2.4 afterburner PIF parts?
I think where the slice stuff really shines is in the high temp arena like pekk peek psu and so on having that extra 10 degrees C difference can be a much bigger deal at 360c on the hotend
Is the Copper Head heater block the same size as the V6? If you want high temps with e3d, correct me if I'm wrong, you need to go Volcano. But then you have a longer heat block, which may or not be a good thing depending on flow rate needs.
Back to the basics review. I like it
Doesn’t higher flow from a larger melt zone equal more ooze/stringing?
I got the bimetal from triangular lab in my mini and it worked great.
Where can i get the gcode for that flow/speed cube?
Video was great! I want to see the upgrade for the V6 design. The successor from E3D.
Copperhead is PEEK (or any polymer) at higher flow rates. Combine with a CHT nozzle for best performance.
i wonder if this could fix my clogs when i'm printing tpu wih my mmu2s on my mk3s. i've had such mixed results and i'm struggling hard to get a stable profile :(
I think it will.
Thomas, I love your videos, they are super helpful and informative. Keep up the good work!
I've used for the past 5 months the bimetal heatbreak from trianglelabs witch got for around 15 euro, and must say that is an awsome uptade for my original e3d v6, i used titan heatbreak before that and only print petg and i had some clogs with the titan heatbreak..with the bimetal one never had a problem!
00⁰⁰ to 0
0
Sooo, can I put this on my Ender 3 Pro, without a ton of modding?
Indeed, hardened steel is certainly not equal to Brass. The NozzleX sounds fairly similar to that coated hardened steel nozzle and I needed to heat it up a bit for similar performance as with a brass nozzle.
4:49 the heat carterage will expand when heated, probably engineered so the expansion will remove the gap
I watched a level of thermal paste being used that rivaled the install of the heatsink in The Verge's gaming PC build video. This might come back to bite you. At least you got your "Needs More Thermal Paste" merit badge :D
Would like to see a follow-up with the titanium heat break for the V6 or hemera
I just got the titanium hemera heatbreak, the copper heat block, and the high temp cartridge and thermistor. This should be up to 400c and you get direct drive. The prices werent even crazy... I think 100cdn delivered from the UK in two days.
@@someguy2741 Please report back your experience. That is a very nice setup.
Where can i download the 2d documentation?
Is this compatible with e3d hemera?
Good review, however I wonder is the Volcano and Nozzle X would be a better comparison.
Exactly my thoughts..
@2:08 you casually remove the "Heat Break" from the heat block. It has no tooling on it (that I can see) How do you get that thing off?? I had to buy a whole new hot end because I didnt know how to remove the darn thing.
Great review Tom ! You should compare the SE heat break to the Triangle Labs version 😀
Did you ever compare the E3D heatbreak with Microswiss Twinclad XT?
I currently have on my MK3 the E3D plated copper heater block, E3D titanium heatbreak, and Spool3D Tungsten Carbide nozzle. I wonder if swapping the titanium heatbreak for the copperhead heatbreak would do anything for me. I do change nozzles, but only a few times per year only to change the orifice size (I have the TC nozzles in several different orifice diameters, but usually just use the 0.4mm one). I do occasionally print abrasive filaments (CF filled, metal filled, glow in the dark, etc). I'm planning on doing a PM tear-down soon (to also apply the MK3S+ upgrades) so that would be when I have the best opportunity to swap heatbreaks, especially since I plan on applying fresh thermal compound as part of my PM activities.
Side thought... I wonder if copper based anti-seize compound would be a good replacement for the standard boron nitride white stuff. Need to look up how well the carrier fluid in anti-seize holds up to high temperatures... I do have some arctic silver lying around, but again I don't know how well that stuff holds up to 300°C+ temperatures...
Boron nitrde is sealer and anti seize as well as thermal. Use industially forever.
You'd still have to buy the heatsink if you have the stock Creality hotend though, there's no way to fit the Copperhead block to a Creality heatsink. Had someone go and measure the measurements of both hotends and their respective blocks and heatbreaks and they don't fit. They will work with a V6 heatsink though.
Hi Tom, have you ever reviewed the FELIX 3D printers (NL)
It would be interesting to see if the differences still persist if the V6 got some of that fancy Thermal Paste.
0:36 Thomas so bada** he rolls sleeves down when work starts.
Thanks for all you've done for 3D printing!
Thomas, have you ever experimented with PTFE coatings? Such as Miller Stephenson MS-122XD? I guess you can bake this coating above 600F and it becomes a permanent ptfe coating. Not sure how durable it is but I wonder if it would improve the wear of a hotend such as the copperhead or other hotends?
hope to see more mod videos for hotter temps on ender 3 v2
Now the question is, do any of these fit on my Anycubic Kobra Max?
The bi metal heat break seems like the first step for me just to increase the length of the heating zone. The old 60 mms is so slow. My printer just needs more heat to print petg consistently at 100 mms.
TBF, I believe Slice Engineering Copperhead pricing has come down quite a bit. Currently, for the kind of money you're talking about, one can buy their very highest top end Mosquito Magnum water cooled.
what about Dyze hotend?
Stupid heatbreak stay put already! Might be time to level that table out for videos like this lol
That wrench is in tune
Wait till you add the dyze design extruder to it. It's the ultimate hotswap. Best upgrade I have ever done
5:05 why would you want good heat transfer between the heater and a thermal break?
@@JorgTheElder it can start in heater itself, don't see any problems with that
@@JorgTheElder oh, yeah, that's right. I still would try to melt it in the nozzle first, but that might introduce heat capacity issues
12:12 you have a leak. usually the nozzle and throat need to meet in the middle of the heatblock and need to fit perfectly onto each other to seal it, because the thread is not sealing anything... Thats why I use actually a self made block of steel to be able to tighten the nozzle more (aluminium and copper/brass threads may wear out quickly or break at the tension that I use to tighten it)
There are bimetal heatbreaks available on Aliexpress, they've certainly been there for several months, but not sure how long before then - search "copper heatbreak" and you'll find them for most styles of hotend.
Thanks for all your work and insights on this wonderful video. I understand your points on the cost in comparison but $180 is not a lot of money. Second, isn't the copperhead really for high temp materials?
I'd grab a mosquito myself. Little more expensive
It's nice of them to put some effort into improving the hotends and follow thru with some other ideas that E3D may not have had or have abandoned for reasons. It just seems to me that the return of investment with Slice Engineering designs is always very bad. Maybe they will find a good middleground at some point, offering improvements that seem to be worth the money spent.
At E3D we're completely rewriting how we make hotends - I'm pretty confident that we'll have something that absolutely blows minds and doesn't break the bank, with an awesome user experience to boot. Price is really important, we're never going to radically change how humanity manufactures goods with extrusion systems that cost $100+ dollars when Chinese printer manufacturers are making entirely decent printers that you can buy on Amazon prime for $250. We're aiming to massively boost performance but also significantly *reduce* cost at the same time. That's the only way we'll still be relevant in 5-10 years time.
@@SanjayMortimer That's the right way. If an upgrade doubles the price of my printer, I feel like a second printer would be worth more to me and disregard the upgrade entirely
when will they do same to the heating element. Element around nozzle, and heat is more even, and instantanious.
Not really. In early RepRap days we did coil wrap arounds but problem here was thermal instability, not coping on fast’ish print speeds and overbaking therefore clogging if retractions are on. It requires more thermal mass around the filament path to be stabile and heater cartridge not too close to keep heat consistent.
Du zitierst JACKFRAGS?!
Consider me impressed!
And since this is youtube: I like the outro.
The flowrate of the v6 you compared must be limited by the heating cartridge; since the other limits (thermal tranfer through nozzle and heater block) are not improved.
So only buy a better heater cartridge for to get higher flowrate.
By the your controller board an firmware has to support the higher current/voltage of the new heater cartridge even if you buy it as a set.
Wrong
I'm so glad I'm a CNC machinist. 😉
You should try out the triangle labs dragon hot end, its probably the best one I have tried
was just about to warn about getting the boron nitrate paste into the hotend bore... then at 10:24 the results of that happening were uncovered and you addressed it.
probably a scrap piece of filament should be in the hotend bore, while the paste is being applied
~$10 gets you a T-D500 (thermistor) or PT1000 (RTD) too, if in a bind.
@ThomasSanladerer I think it’s time for a hotend showdown! Mosquito, copperhead, E3D V6, Revo. Bonus test the E3D Hemera vs the Bondtech/Slice copperhead setup for extruder/hotend combos.
is it weird i just have boron nitride laying around?
why wouldn't copperhead hotend (only the hotend) work on Hemera? I thought Hemera uses v6 style threading on the hotend side; since it uses v6 and can use volcano hotend also.
Please test titan heatbreaks!
I would go hemera option for this price.
Great review, challenging Jeff today ey?
"Made in USA" means "probably high shipping and customs charges" to me :D
"Probably toxic and carcinogenic if consumable" to me
I would be interested to see a comparison to the nova hotend. i've seen some pretty amazing videos of that and it would be interesting to compare several of the more expensive options.
yup, I'd love to see a side by side, especially cause the copperhead is more expensive and claims to be the "better thermally performing" one, push each one to it's limits and let's see who wins!
keep in mind, in his tests the copperhead started struggling at 20mm³/s at 210, while the Nova can do about double, I have to say I'm kinda biased as I've tested the nova thoroughly and don't have the copperhead, but I'd still love to see a scientific side by side test
@@l3d-3dmaker58 I think this test was hobbled by the heater. The slice heater is 50W compared to the 30W heater used in this video. The nova's 60W heater should outperform the 30W one. A real test would use the proper slice heater for a proper flowrate comparison.
@@joshsekel yes, he didn’t review the whole system. The info he provided was great, but was not a fully fair review. If you’re going to keep going on about the price of the full kit, you should review the full kit and show people what they would be getting for the money.
@@joshsekel Heater cartridge power does not affect hotend flow/melt rate, that might sound crazy and isn't intuitive, but it is the truth about how the system works. This was a fair test, and changing the heater would have given them same results.
2:13 outch Sound incoming xD. that one hurts in the ears
Wish you would compare it with the volcano...
would be interesting to compare the E3D copper Heatblock VS this Slice engineering compound stuff
I have the E3D copper heatblock and it works perfectly in any situation
I was thinking the same thing, there is also the E3D Titanium heatbreak and Nozzle X. A video comparing a fully upgraded V6 and the complete CopperHead would be interesting as they should be in a similar price range.
Yep, more fitting head to head. Closer on performance and closer on price.