Would you prefer changing just the Heat Break or would you rather replace the whole Hotend? Don't forget to like & subscribe and share this video on Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, and other platforms!
Heatbreak is a pain in the butt to change. You might have to apply thermal grease, you might need a wrench and pliers. Id much rather just have multiple hot ends. Honestly, if it was easily available id rather just have multiple hot ends on hand, and just change them out for differently sized nozzles/heatbreaks/etc
Missed this too. I installed the heatbreak from trianglelablabs and without changing the retraction (it was set to 6 mm) i had horible underextrusion. Now I changed it to 2 mm and everthing is fine.
@@jdrevenge If he tested it, they would have had the same result. They are made of steel and copper. Sure the slice one will probably be a few degrees cooler due to better material choice, and be less likely to fall apart, but this kind of performance will be the same.
Honestly I think that the main reason for that small extrusion rate on the ender 3 is because the ptfe tube is making the length of the heated section (melt zone) half as much as it normally is in an all metal hotend. v6 lite also has reduced extrusion rate. this one is basically just the nozzle as the heating zone.
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@@SliceEngineering Does it protrude like the heat break in the video? I was wondering if he purchased the correct version or if it was installed incorrectly.
Would not a titanium tube be an even better option than the stainless? Would the thermal properties allow for a stable fit between the copper and titanium?
10:27 - I think the shorter "knock-off" heat break may actually be a "Kraken" or "Chimera" heat break made for a clone E3D or Volcano hot end rather than for a Ender 3. If the OAL is 20.5mm, it's a Kraken/Chimera heat break. The Ender 3 one has the same threads and barrel diameter but is considerably longer.
I got my bi-metal heat break from Trianglelabs, works extremely well and the press fit is pretty solid. Dropped 8c on my heatsink and haven't exceeded 40c on it even with both hot ends at printing temp. I have noticed that I was able to print very large extrusion widths very quickly, and for only $17. UPDATE: Benchmarked my max flow rate with a bimetal heat break, copper 0.6mm nozzle, copper heater block, BMG extruder 3:1 gear ratio, and pancake stepper at 0.5amp RMS in DD config. The final results were around 25mm/s^3 cubed, incredible for a non-volcano V6 hotend.
@@CNCKitchen almost everything from trianglelabs is of good quality. its pretty much the only chinese knockoff worth buying. some of their clones are superior to the real deals. their bmg clone fits the ender 3 without rubbing against the leadscrew. the dragon hotend can barely be considered a mosquito clone its heavily redesigned and fits any v6 mount. the dragonfly too can barely be considered a copperhead clone theres 2 versions of it one that is somewhat obviously a copperhead clone and one thats a drop in replacement for an ender hotend. they also have a microswiss clone with a plated copper heat block. and their plated copper is good i have the dragon hotend and both the plated copper block and 0.4 nozzle have been working excellently for me.
I got my Trianglelabs stainless steel bi-metal heatbreak for my Neptune 2 last week. I installed it with a Trianglelabs copper plated 0.4 nozzle and it's a dream. Besides the other upsides I never experienced skipping or grinding since then. The filament flow (with ABS) is just crazy and seems to have no limit. I got a malfunction a few days ago since my Neptune 2 is in a box right now to print ABS and the board overheated, which made the extruderstepper drive at a ridiculous speed. In a few seconds there was a great mass of ABS extruded. I was really happy to see that performance boost, even though i experienced this malfunktion :D The Trianglelabs stainless steel bi-metal heatbreak (and the copper plated nozzle!) is worth every cent. Wouldn't go for the titanium one, since it seems it has no copper part in the heating section.
Thanks for this video. I've just performed the same upgrade to my Ender 3's hot end and was incredibly surprised to see my retraction distance go down from 6.5mm to 2mm, even though those are the results you got, as well! I ended up printing a bunch of retraction tests, just to be sure, and ... wow!
@@rickybobbyracing9106 with lower retraction I can print in higher quality much faster, as I don't have to wait for my extruder to retract so far before doing the next extrusion - it also makes it much much easier to print flexible filaments and more exotic filaments in general. There's an overall improvement to how my printed parts look, too.
Oooh! Glad to see it wasn't a mistake when using thermal paste on my heatbreak to heatsink junction. I'd never seen or heard of anyone doing that before, but I always do add it because... well... it makes sense. haha
VERY impressed with your excellent summary of this part. I wasn't even aware of what a heat break was. Additionally, your excellent animations (which I know took a lot of your time) explained to me what was happening. All this, and it appears English isn't your native language, so you, sir, are truly a gifted teacher.
The Slice engineering heat break did wonders for my Ender 3 max, able to print PLA+ faster, much easier to change filaments as the teflon tube was no longer being damaged and the effective nozzle temperature was higher with less heat loss going up the stock heat break.
Very nice info thank you! I been running with titanium heatbreak, they cost around 20$ a pop, but last for 6 months plus ( I work with my printers ). I mostly print petg, titanium has been a great friend to me. But this new product will be my next try.
Great video Stefan! I really appreciate that you showed us how you removed your old stock heat break and re-threaded the block, these are useful details for first time hot-end surgeons. One comment however: since the heat block was flush with the heat sink with the knockoff test; this likely cause a significant amount of heat creep and could have been the culprit for printing artifacts. Granted this is in part due to the shorter length of the knock off, however even the genuine part had some spacing issues due to length. I may be wrong but I think the heat block / heat sink screws could still have been used as a spacer.
At around 10:44 I had a thought. I wonder if screwing in the nozzle first, such that it is completely flush with the heat block would result in even better performance for free. I would think intuitively that the higher area of contact would keep the temperature of the nozzle more consistent while pulling double duty in reducing heat transfer to the cold end due to lower contact there.
I completely understand why you think that that’s a good idea. But unfortunately if you do it that way you can’t properly tighten the heat break against the nozzle. I’ve tried it because I also thought that would improve thermals.... my hot end exploded with molten plastic. SO DON’T DO IT! Leave a small gap between nozzle and heat break. Insert heat break first then tighten the nozzle against the heat break.
@@lucasvandelogt5126 I think these two methods are effective, but I prefer the former method. However, if you use this method, you cannot change the nozzle at will, otherwise you will encounter the problem you mentioned. If you want to replace the nozzle, you need to remove the entire hot end. However, if you use hardened steel nozzles, it can indeed bring certain improvements.
Would be really interested in a caparison between the Bi-Metallic Heat Break mod seen here Vs the $5 Trianglelab Titanium Alloy Kraken Heatbreak mod on the Enders.
I actually purchased the knock off "Swiss" all metal hot end from Triangle labs which uses a Ti heatbreak, and am yet to fit and test it on my Ender 6. I have been reluctant to test it as it has taken me a long time to get acceptable prints from the E6, but I'm getting there now, so I think it's time to move on. The quality of the Triangle lab parts, from my past experience, have been exponentially better than that of the usual chinesium cheapo knock offs. Usually as good as, if not better than some of the parts they're copying. Their nozzles are incredible value. I'm hoping the Ender 6 upgrade it will give me adequete TPU results, but think the Ender 6 is in urgent need of better part cooling than the, frankly lazy, duct design that's provided with it.
@@BusbyBiscuits oh yeah, hero me gen 5 is much much better than stock creality ender 3 stuff which looks the same as a ender 6. and you can use a 20mm deep fan to halve the noise.
Could you cover the Mellow Nf V6? That is ceramic and looks crazy! Also, to fix the rotating heatbreak you can assemble the hotend and tighten the nozzle.
@@vasko928 Wrong and wrong. Here's a link to Slice Engineering's mosquito. Tell me what it says on the heater block: www.sliceengineering.com/products/the-mosquito-hotend%E2%84%A2
Welcome to my grounds Stefan I am using various knockoffs bimetal from China for over a year now in my twin nozzle water cooled heatsink, and yes they are manufactured without any quality concerns. But I managed to find a way to make them work well,I fine tune them phisically (which I would expect from the producers to do but I guess the just don't care) A) the PTEF tube inlet need to be deburred and eventually countersunk enlarged to hep the tube slide in, a 2 mm cone fillet or chamfer does the job,takes a few seconds to do it. B) same think at the filament inlet below, but here a one mm fillet or chamfer is enough, I sort that out with a small conic router bit run once clock wise for a second or two, than anticlockwise for three or four seconds to give my fillet a shine so it does not grip on the filament. You see how some small things can ruin a good concept in a potentially good product? BTW, it took you a hile tochange that head each time... lol, using my snap in place manual tool changing setup that takes 3 mintues, assuming you have more than one heatsink at hand, just fit them in different configurations,and when needed swap them in seconds. One last thing, PLA adores sticking to metals, hence all metal heatbreaks be them one metal or bi metal are not a good option for PLA, Stick tot the PTEF sleeved heatbreaks for that, makes life easy, no cloggs, no jamms. On the other hand PETG, Polycarbonte, Ultem have not such issues, I am still to test HIPS in bimetal setup, will find out next weeks.
Just a small note, because it's confusing enough as is. Bowden setups don't have the PTFE extending into the hot-zone necessarily. Yours do, but I think I'll add to confusion if people just assume all bowdens have the PTFE extending into the heater block. lots have it extending into the break, but only in the cold side.
I think I want to get some of these purely to eliminate the bowden tube creeping up. Since I'm printing for business, it is extremely frustrating waking up to a whole batch of prints that are under extruded due to the bowden tube backing out from the hotend.
@@lakitu6422 yeah I upgraded all my Ender 3s with this and it eliminated so many issues for me. I think I can only recall one clog that happened over the last year and that is from 6 printers that got upgraded. No more issues with the bowden tube pushing out of the hotend, no more blown out couplers. This won't eliminate stringing as that is an issue related to temperature, retraction, print speed and filament.
Upgrades like this seem to be worth it even if you're not going as fast as possible because of the thermal performance which means less heat where it shouldn't be, either on the hot or cold side.
I also bought the knock off brand and also had bad prints and stuck filament in the heatbreak🙈 than i found youre video thanks for sharing the knowledge👌
What a coincidence! I tested a cheap bi-metal heat break just two days ago (an all metal V6 clone). Clogged hotend approx 14 hours into the first larger print. After disassembling the hotend the heatbreak looked ok, but filament would just not fit through. On closer inspection I saw that the inner tube wasn't actual a tube but a rolled up metal sheet with a slit. That slit delaminated (I guess from the temperature gradient) from the wall and one end of the metal sheet pointed inwards. Filament no longer flowed. Went back to my titanium heat break I had no issues with.
9:23 - where should be one more line on the graph. Clean everything as you just did, install new standard heat break - guess, it also gives some improvement?
Mine fell apart at the lower thread portion. The center came right out leaving the threaded portion in my heat block. I was pretty disappointed. Big flaw of these. Made sense when I took it apart as a leak had developed and everything was properly tight. Mine were bought on Amazon for my sidewinder x1 v4 , looks to be the same ones pictures.
11:11 Your Retraction test looks interesting. How do you set up different retraction settings into one part? And another question why looks this rectangulars so strange on the left side?
To be honest difference between materials (hence conductivity) only helps in transient response of the system not steady state. Also the hotend fix on the Bowden type extruders is one of the first mods one can do. Bottom line i agree with what you said in the summary, only worth doing this if you want to be able to print using higher temperature materials.
A comparison between this one, stainless steel all metal and titanium all metal, maybe even including OEM and knockoff parts (yes I know that would be a lot of work).
It depends from materials used. For me full metal was fine from PETG, flex, nylon to PC. The only problem I had is PLA - it is very sticky and when it sticks somewhere at the bottom of heatbreak I have problems, PTFE in heatbreak there was a solution. I can't see how bi-metallic heatbreak solves that problem.
Are you using some form of heatsink compound on the heatblock side for installation? Seems like most guides talk about not using any kind of compound but I would think something like the Slice boron nitride paste would work well and act as an additional anti-seize. At least if your purpose is to put more heat at the heatblock side (since they're keeping copper there for similar reasons per the video). It also seems to look like some kind of paste is present in the video but perhaps it's my imagination.
Why not cut the bowden tube so it won't retract. This is one of the first upgrades that everyone with an Ender 3 does. Also you can replace the part of the bowden tube in the end with one of better material. This solves all clogging problems for me; noted that I don't need high flow rates.
I like big nozzles and I cannot lie. Sorry, had to be said. :) Anyway, interesting video, Stefan, I had not considered using an all-metal heat break to increase flow rate. Guess I'll be checking out Slice Engineering now to see what I can find to fit my delta...
? maybe its too expensive but i have a ruby bead for my nozzel it never clogs and is super smooth layer by layer i think it was like $200 but it made a huge diffrence w what i print
14:06 UHh, you should do your own regular backups of your web data regardless of how fancy your host is. If you know how to install WordPress on a VPS, you can set automatic updates for everything because you'll have full control of the OS.
Interesting video Stefan! I got a Titanium V6 heatbreak for my MK3S to avoid PLA jamming because of the custom 'notch' the standard heatbreak uses for the MMU2. You mentioned known downsides for a titanium heatbreak, what were you referring to?
The stock Ender 3 heat break is 27mm long. It appears the Slice Engineering one is 28mm long, which sits the nozzle too low and messes up auto-leveling settings. Considering they could have just cut it to fit, I have to wonder why they didn't.
This is pretty exciting, but printing with larger nozzles (1+mm) would make me really worry if it's a weaker material combination due to the propensity of forming and bumping into blobs. The genuine E3D titanium heatbreaks are cheaper, too.
I'm always intrigued how you show how genuine (real) parts deliver better results, yet the comments section is full of people boasting the results using their (insert you lame cloner brand here) they got for way less. I'd rather support companies that develop and improve new products versus the cloners who stamp their names on someone else's design and product development (shrug)
I had no idea there was a calibration print for retraction. I've been wanting to learn how to do calibration tests for my printer to fix the weird issues I have. It would be super cool if you could do a video talking about the different types of tests and prints you use to calibrate and test your printers. I'd love to know what you do to get such clean looking prints.
Search for teching tech's printer calibration guide. He provides a github with a great checklist for calibrating almost everything on your printer. Hope this helps.
"surgical" stainless steel is marketing, it's not used in surgery, it's something they starting slapping on jewelry years ago to confuse people about nickel content. It's just stainless steel, if you want be more precise, use the alloy code. (it's either 316 or 304...aka common stainless steels)
Have the microswiss all metal hotend on an old Wanhao i3 (heavily modded). I was thinking of throwing another heater in the hot block, it seems to struggle at higher print speeds with the Inland filaments and also if the part cooling 40mm delta fan comes on while its extruding, the temp drops as much as 5 deg. Also tried a 1.2mm nozzle, could at best print about 50% speed compared to the 0.4mm nozzle. Parts still came out much stronger and heavier than a 0.4, and were about 40% faster print time, but also used quite a lot more filament. I will try a few prints with the 0.6/0.8mm nozzles I have. Might be better suited for the prototyping I do.
DIsagree on your if only you were printing slow and with only PLA yadda yadda. I print fairly slow on my printer, 30-40mm/s typically, and moving to a all copper heater block with an all metal hot end has greatly improved my prints.Than using the stock Ender hotend. While this heat break would be a great upgrade to an stock hotend, the cost does not justify it. Where you can get great quality hot ends for a small addition to cost and have a hotend that is still vastly superior to the stock ender 3 hotend.
the worst ones are bare metal heat brakes that in contact with PLA filament I'm designing a way to exchange whole hotend for a specific filament like for TPU/PC/PLA ... so that one is only recommended for PC as I recommended it for and to go ~350c.
The concern with the chinese heatbreaks is not that they do not work. Sure Slice and knock off bimetallic heartbreaks alike can be picky jamming with certain filaments, but they both work the same. However the problem comes if you crash into stuff or have a threaded cold end, it can fall apart. If you put a chinese one on a prusa and do not assemble the hotend in a very specific way it loosens the metal tube in the hot side and it randomly drops during a print. Had that happen twice before I learned better.
Your are the empirical guru just subscribed because I have learned so much from you!. I am on mission to learn all things possible to optimize print time and quality and find all your post very informative. I wanted to suggest another topic a roundup video. If a good heat break helps melting performance, and CHT nozzle + adapter (your other video) also helps, what results do a unified system of these two combined approaches produce?
Stefan, you mention there are problems with titanium all metal heat breaks. Please elaborate. I would also love to see a video which compares the performance, especially using low temperature PLAs which tend to get sticky and jam in steel heat breaks. So many people on the forums tend to push titanium as the solution.
Hallo Stefan. Danke Danke Danke. Am liebsten würde ich dich ganz dolle für dieses Video und den Tipp für das Slice Engineering Heatbreak drücken. Boah, was für eine (frustrierende) Reise hatte ich hinter mir, bis ich dieses Video gefunden habe. Also ich habe eine Ender 3 V2 und drucke faktisch ein Set von Teilen in PETG. Das hat auch soweit ganz gut funktioniert bis das original PTFE auf Düse Konzept endgültig aufgegeben hat... Danach begannen alle nur erdenklichen Probleme... Kurz: Nach drei Wochen Experimentieren funktionert jetzt, mit diesem Heatbreak, endlich wieder alles so wie gewohnt und besser. Danke auch für die Vorarbeit für die Settings für den Rückzug. Passt beim Ender 3 V2 mit diesem Heatbreak und PETG exakt so. Nochmal: Danke Danke Danke!
Thanks for the tips. I really dislike the clicking sound, and am tired of breaking down my hot end (often) to clean out filament in the transition you describe. I have been searching for the “ideal” hot end ( Creality CR10S with a Micro-Swiss Direct Drive extruder ). I’ll check this out!
I bought the same style of heat break from Spool3D made out of titanium for the Ender 3 stock hotend. It worked great for CF nylon but clogged constantly with PLA even when oiling. I coated the heat break with a high temp thermal paste and it finally stopped clogging with PLA. I finally switched to the Micro Swiss direct drive and all metal hotend kit and never looked back. Lol works perfectly. Just did my first TPU parts without any issues.
I currently got massive problems with heat creep printing PLA with my Prusa i3 MK2S MMU1. Tried everything together with the support of Prusa, like replacing the thermal paste and other stuff. Didn't really fixed the issue. I'll gonna definitely give this a shot. Hopefully, that fixes my issues.
So I got a update with really good news 😊 I got my copper heatbreak a few days ago. It fixed all extrusion issues I had with my MMU1. Big thanks Stefan for that recommendation. One little thing is, that the lower part of the heatbreak is a bit longer than the original one from e3d. But some tweaking with my PINDA fixed that.
Why isn't there a heat shield between the lower nozzle end and the upper cooler? Seems the heat will rise straight up from the nozzle and skip the bi-metal part.
My experience with a bimetal heat break from biqu is a bit mixed. Performance is amazing, i have no issues with print uniformity, like in the video. However, the tube is a bit loose and does rotate a little bit, even tho it shows no indication of ever coming apart. A bigger issue is that long retractions, overpressure or pulling the filament out, without first pushing it a millimeter in before, results in molten plastic climbing in the cold zone and clogging the nozzle.
Thank you for the video. Excellent as always. I just ordered the copperhead based on this info. I previously tried two knockoff all metal hotends on my ender 3 pro. Both had terrible heat creep and constant clogging.
Being able to increase the printing speed with one of these installed is good, but does that mean bridges come out worse with filaments like PLA because the cooling fan is already at maximum speed?
Now I've tried this and I feel betrayed. My Ender 3 worked perfectly before. I haven't been able to do a single successful print since I've installed the new heat break. The nozzle clogs eventually, even if everything seems to be working fine at the beginning. I have taken apart and put together the whole hot end assembly four or five times now. Can anyone give me a hint? What I should look at to solve the clogging issue?
Is this modification to solve the non-printing? I have a first series Kobra and I am every day disassembling and reassembling. Any advice? Thank you very much.
That brass hobb wheel from enter 3 is a complete garbage, they needed to fix it by pushing the filament harder towards it, but then as shown in the video the stepper motor can't keep up any more, and if you increase current it will start overheating. I bought stainless steel one from E3D and it was gripping 100x better, unfortunately it had the OD too small to be used in ender 3.
1. Make sure that all of these flowrates result in a similar amount of underextrusion ==> flat part of the curve 2. Sometimes de-activating minimum layer time and just printing slow in general helps 3. You can even experiment with the "autospeed" functionality in PrusaSlicer 4. Get a proper hotend and feeder that extrudes well
@@CNCKitchen 1. Mine is odd, the hull of the benchy is under extruded but the cabin is over extruded with a bulge, at all extrusion rates. 2. My min layer time only comes into effect at the smokestack of the benchy 3. Using Cura... 4. I have a genuine E3D Titan Aero with a Slice Bi-metal heat break.
@@HotboiEngineering a good dual drive / gear extruder will push the same amount consistantly upto large resistance when the pla filament cant take it anymore and wears on the extruder to a little dip in the filament, while a stock ender 3 style will have varying degrees of slip depending on resistance
@@FTGTapGod Nice, I have a V4 too. Which heatbreak model did you chose for it? Slice has smooth and threaded models but I'm not sure of which one will fit
Arcol was making bimetallic aluminium/SS hotends a /decade/ ago - it's sad that it's taken this long for folks to realise that it's actually a good idea..
One Russian youtuber, Dmitry Sorkin, about a year ago tested such a heatbreack from Triangle Lab on an E3D V6 (from aliexpress, a good company) and the result ... Not bad, but plastic leaked very slightly from the top in a few hours of printing. It did not affect anything, but it turned out unpleasant.
I order the copperhead Heat break c-e for my Ender max to avoid cloging 🙂 I place the order the feburary 11 and still waiting for it. I change the ptfe tube for the capricorn ans should be good to restart it
13:04 I broke the thermistor bulb, somehow shorted the board, which I'm assuming should be with the current from the ceramic heater which also had some exposed section. Fried board, not fun.
I love your testing protocols. Would it be possible for you to compare the ender with bimetallic heat break to a Phaetus Dragonfly hot end? The hotend does come with a bimetallic heatbreak, copper heater block and nozzle. I would be genuinely curious to see a 1 to 1 test, especially given I'm currently using one in my Prusa Mk2.5s.
Would you prefer changing just the Heat Break or would you rather replace the whole Hotend?
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If the hotend is fine, the heatbreak will do
Heatbreak is a pain in the butt to change. You might have to apply thermal grease, you might need a wrench and pliers.
Id much rather just have multiple hot ends.
Honestly, if it was easily available id rather just have multiple hot ends on hand, and just change them out for differently sized nozzles/heatbreaks/etc
I have been toying with the idea of putting a mosquito on my Prusa Mini.
What is extruder graff? @7:32
@@TwinStarGenny extruder graph, I think is the manually weighed material plotted VS feed rate?
You didn't test the knock off one with the changed retraction.
noticed it too..
Missed this too. I installed the heatbreak from trianglelablabs and without changing the retraction (it was set to 6 mm) i had horible underextrusion. Now I changed it to 2 mm and everthing is fine.
He mentioned testing it.
shhh he isn't supposed to let you know the clone works
@@jdrevenge If he tested it, they would have had the same result. They are made of steel and copper. Sure the slice one will probably be a few degrees cooler due to better material choice, and be less likely to fall apart, but this kind of performance will be the same.
Honestly I think that the main reason for that small extrusion rate on the ender 3 is because the ptfe tube is making the length of the heated section (melt zone) half as much as it normally is in an all metal hotend. v6 lite also has reduced extrusion rate. this one is basically just the nozzle as the heating zone.
ive seen these around for a while and was wondering if they actually did anything, now i know
I also had problems with extruding, then I tried linear advanced in Marlin and printer now runs perfectly
Perfect timing..thank you! I have been wanting to print ABS, Nylon and PC and have been looking at these.
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Which model of the heatbreak is the direct replacement for the Ender 3 Pro?
@@chrismawson4430 the Copperhead C-E Heat Break is the direct replacement for the Ender 3 Pro
@@SliceEngineering Does it protrude like the heat break in the video? I was wondering if he purchased the correct version or if it was installed incorrectly.
@@ruuman4 Yes, it will protrude a minor amount.
Would not a titanium tube be an even better option than the stainless?
Would the thermal properties allow for a stable fit between the copper and titanium?
Where can u find that retraction test shown at the 11th minute?
I was looking for this too!
Same. Looks very useful.
yes, seems very helpful
w8 4 answer
I made mine using 3DOptimizr. Should maybe program a similar one, so that I can share it.
10:27 - I think the shorter "knock-off" heat break may actually be a "Kraken" or "Chimera" heat break made for a clone E3D or Volcano hot end rather than for a Ender 3. If the OAL is 20.5mm, it's a Kraken/Chimera heat break. The Ender 3 one has the same threads and barrel diameter but is considerably longer.
I got my bi-metal heat break from Trianglelabs, works extremely well and the press fit is pretty solid. Dropped 8c on my heatsink and haven't exceeded 40c on it even with both hot ends at printing temp. I have noticed that I was able to print very large extrusion widths very quickly, and for only $17.
UPDATE: Benchmarked my max flow rate with a bimetal heat break, copper 0.6mm nozzle, copper heater block, BMG extruder 3:1 gear ratio, and pancake stepper at 0.5amp RMS in DD config. The final results were around 25mm/s^3 cubed, incredible for a non-volcano V6 hotend.
Which version did you get? The one for the Ender as well?
@@CNCKitchen almost everything from trianglelabs is of good quality. its pretty much the only chinese knockoff worth buying. some of their clones are superior to the real deals. their bmg clone fits the ender 3 without rubbing against the leadscrew. the dragon hotend can barely be considered a mosquito clone its heavily redesigned and fits any v6 mount. the dragonfly too can barely be considered a copperhead clone theres 2 versions of it one that is somewhat obviously a copperhead clone and one thats a drop in replacement for an ender hotend. they also have a microswiss clone with a plated copper heat block. and their plated copper is good i have the dragon hotend and both the plated copper block and 0.4 nozzle have been working excellently for me.
@@CNCKitchen I can recommend the trianglelabs clones, these are of superior quality.
@@CNCKitchen Yeah I got the ender version off Ali Express.
@@CNCKitchen They only have the kraken one, but that works in that mod also.
excellent insights Stefan 👍 thanks a lot, I also had some concerns about the heatbreaks, but now it became clear 🙌😎
@marsgizmo please take part in the meltzone podcast 😉
I got my Trianglelabs stainless steel bi-metal heatbreak for my Neptune 2 last week. I installed it with a Trianglelabs copper plated 0.4 nozzle and it's a dream. Besides the other upsides I never experienced skipping or grinding since then. The filament flow (with ABS) is just crazy and seems to have no limit. I got a malfunction a few days ago since my Neptune 2 is in a box right now to print ABS and the board overheated, which made the extruderstepper drive at a ridiculous speed. In a few seconds there was a great mass of ABS extruded. I was really happy to see that performance boost, even though i experienced this malfunktion :D The Trianglelabs stainless steel bi-metal heatbreak (and the copper plated nozzle!) is worth every cent. Wouldn't go for the titanium one, since it seems it has no copper part in the heating section.
Thanks for this video. I've just performed the same upgrade to my Ender 3's hot end and was incredibly surprised to see my retraction distance go down from 6.5mm to 2mm, even though those are the results you got, as well! I ended up printing a bunch of retraction tests, just to be sure, and ... wow!
With the lower retraction what were you able to do that you couldn't before? I'm looking for good upgrades and I'm considering this one.
@@rickybobbyracing9106 with lower retraction I can print in higher quality much faster, as I don't have to wait for my extruder to retract so far before doing the next extrusion - it also makes it much much easier to print flexible filaments and more exotic filaments in general. There's an overall improvement to how my printed parts look, too.
Oooh! Glad to see it wasn't a mistake when using thermal paste on my heatbreak to heatsink junction. I'd never seen or heard of anyone doing that before, but I always do add it because... well... it makes sense. haha
I also use it in my soldering irons.
I really appreciate that you always do multiple tests and show us your data.
VERY impressed with your excellent summary of this part. I wasn't even aware of what a heat break was. Additionally, your excellent animations (which I know took a lot of your time) explained to me what was happening. All this, and it appears English isn't your native language, so you, sir, are truly a gifted teacher.
The Slice engineering heat break did wonders for my Ender 3 max, able to print PLA+ faster, much easier to change filaments as the teflon tube was no longer being damaged and the effective nozzle temperature was higher with less heat loss going up the stock heat break.
I love the precision of your analysis and the quality of the recommendations that result from it.
We are literally getting engineering work for free.
Don't be so loud about it or he might find out and start charging a few hundred per hour 😛
@@BeefIngot I wouldn't mind paying, will hopefully become a Patreon when I get my own 3D printer and really need his work.
That's an amazing explanation, thank you so much for the help! I finally noticed what's wrong my my old Cr10
This finally made me understand what is going on in the hotend. Thank you!
Just bought one of these on a whim. I want to print some PC and Just finished my enclosure build so excited!
Very nice info thank you! I been running with titanium heatbreak, they cost around 20$ a pop, but last for 6 months plus ( I work with my printers ). I mostly print petg, titanium has been a great friend to me. But this new product will be my next try.
Great video Stefan! I really appreciate that you showed us how you removed your old stock heat break and re-threaded the block, these are useful details for first time hot-end surgeons. One comment however: since the heat block was flush with the heat sink with the knockoff test; this likely cause a significant amount of heat creep and could have been the culprit for printing artifacts. Granted this is in part due to the shorter length of the knock off, however even the genuine part had some spacing issues due to length. I may be wrong but I think the heat block / heat sink screws could still have been used as a spacer.
At around 10:44 I had a thought. I wonder if screwing in the nozzle first, such that it is completely flush with the heat block would result in even better performance for free. I would think intuitively that the higher area of contact would keep the temperature of the nozzle more consistent while pulling double duty in reducing heat transfer to the cold end due to lower contact there.
I completely understand why you think that that’s a good idea. But unfortunately if you do it that way you can’t properly tighten the heat break against the nozzle. I’ve tried it because I also thought that would improve thermals.... my hot end exploded with molten plastic. SO DON’T DO IT! Leave a small gap between nozzle and heat break. Insert heat break first then tighten the nozzle against the heat break.
@@lucasvandelogt5126 I think these two methods are effective, but I prefer the former method. However, if you use this method, you cannot change the nozzle at will, otherwise you will encounter the problem you mentioned. If you want to replace the nozzle, you need to remove the entire hot end. However, if you use hardened steel nozzles, it can indeed bring certain improvements.
Would be really interested in a caparison between the Bi-Metallic Heat Break mod seen here Vs the $5 Trianglelab Titanium Alloy Kraken Heatbreak mod on the Enders.
I actually purchased the knock off "Swiss" all metal hot end from Triangle labs which uses a Ti heatbreak, and am yet to fit and test it on my Ender 6. I have been reluctant to test it as it has taken me a long time to get acceptable prints from the E6, but I'm getting there now, so I think it's time to move on.
The quality of the Triangle lab parts, from my past experience, have been exponentially better than that of the usual chinesium cheapo knock offs. Usually as good as, if not better than some of the parts they're copying. Their nozzles are incredible value.
I'm hoping the Ender 6 upgrade it will give me adequete TPU results, but think the Ender 6 is in urgent need of better part cooling than the, frankly lazy, duct design that's provided with it.
@@BusbyBiscuits I've been running a few of the TL all-metal hotends, and haven't had any issues with them over the last couple of years.
@@BusbyBiscuits I have no problems printing Pla with a titanium heatbreak from triangellabs
@@BusbyBiscuits oh yeah, hero me gen 5 is much much better than stock creality ender 3 stuff which looks the same as a ender 6. and you can use a 20mm deep fan to halve the noise.
Could you cover the Mellow Nf V6? That is ceramic and looks crazy! Also, to fix the rotating heatbreak you can assemble the hotend and tighten the nozzle.
I'm using the trianglelabs one for a lot of time now without any issues, printing high and low temp filaments!
Trianglelabs is without a doubt the highest quality counterfeiters in the game.
@@DR-br5gb Knowing the majority of companies, they probably outsource the original ones to the same factory as trianglelab.
@@DR-br5gb is counterfeit the correct word?
@@garramiro it is open source so I don't think so
@@vasko928 Wrong and wrong. Here's a link to Slice Engineering's mosquito. Tell me what it says on the heater block: www.sliceengineering.com/products/the-mosquito-hotend%E2%84%A2
Amazing investigation. Seems exactly what i'm facing with stock Ender 3v2 Hotend
it would be interesting to hear your impressions on the triangle lab new dragon hotend v2
Welcome to my grounds Stefan
I am using various knockoffs bimetal from China for over a year now in my twin nozzle water cooled heatsink, and yes they are manufactured without any quality concerns.
But I managed to find a way to make them work well,I fine tune them phisically (which I would expect from the producers to do but I guess the just don't care)
A) the PTEF tube inlet need to be deburred and eventually countersunk enlarged to hep the tube slide in, a 2 mm cone fillet or chamfer does the job,takes a few seconds to do it.
B) same think at the filament inlet below, but here a one mm fillet or chamfer is enough, I sort that out with a small conic router bit run once clock wise for a second or two, than anticlockwise for three or four seconds to give my fillet a shine so it does not grip on the filament.
You see how some small things can ruin a good concept in a potentially good product?
BTW, it took you a hile tochange that head each time... lol, using my snap in place manual tool changing setup that takes 3 mintues, assuming you have more than one heatsink at hand, just fit them in different configurations,and when needed swap them in seconds.
One last thing, PLA adores sticking to metals, hence all metal heatbreaks be them one metal or bi metal are not a good option for PLA, Stick tot the PTEF sleeved heatbreaks for that, makes life easy, no cloggs, no jamms.
On the other hand PETG, Polycarbonte, Ultem have not such issues, I am still to test HIPS in bimetal setup, will find out next weeks.
Just a small note, because it's confusing enough as is. Bowden setups don't have the PTFE extending into the hot-zone necessarily. Yours do, but I think I'll add to confusion if people just assume all bowdens have the PTFE extending into the heater block. lots have it extending into the break, but only in the cold side.
This is probably where you don't want to go cheap. Nice work.
I think I want to get some of these purely to eliminate the bowden tube creeping up. Since I'm printing for business, it is extremely frustrating waking up to a whole batch of prints that are under extruded due to the bowden tube backing out from the hotend.
Did you end up doing this? And if you did, did it work? I've been considering doing the same thing to stop stringing and clogs related to the tubing.
@@lakitu6422 yeah I upgraded all my Ender 3s with this and it eliminated so many issues for me. I think I can only recall one clog that happened over the last year and that is from 6 printers that got upgraded. No more issues with the bowden tube pushing out of the hotend, no more blown out couplers.
This won't eliminate stringing as that is an issue related to temperature, retraction, print speed and filament.
Upgrades like this seem to be worth it even if you're not going as fast as possible because of the thermal performance which means less heat where it shouldn't be, either on the hot or cold side.
I also bought the knock off brand and also had bad prints and stuck filament in the heatbreak🙈 than i found youre video thanks for sharing the knowledge👌
What a coincidence! I tested a cheap bi-metal heat break just two days ago (an all metal V6 clone). Clogged hotend approx 14 hours into the first larger print. After disassembling the hotend the heatbreak looked ok, but filament would just not fit through. On closer inspection I saw that the inner tube wasn't actual a tube but a rolled up metal sheet with a slit. That slit delaminated (I guess from the temperature gradient) from the wall and one end of the metal sheet pointed inwards. Filament no longer flowed. Went back to my titanium heat break I had no issues with.
Thank you for making this! I cant wait to try this.
I always love it when there’s more comments and/or likes than the view especially since I know why they happen
What
Cute that you are still surprised by this when you consider it's been a few years it does that
9:23 - where should be one more line on the graph. Clean everything as you just did, install new standard heat break - guess, it also gives some improvement?
Mine fell apart at the lower thread portion. The center came right out leaving the threaded portion in my heat block. I was pretty disappointed. Big flaw of these. Made sense when I took it apart as a leak had developed and everything was properly tight. Mine were bought on Amazon for my sidewinder x1 v4 , looks to be the same ones pictures.
please do the same with titanium Heat Breaks!
11:11 Your Retraction test looks interesting. How do you set up different retraction settings into one part?
And another question why looks this rectangulars so strange on the left side?
Sometimes I think you're smart, but then I watch you use a tap in a drill and I know you're just a maniac
To be honest difference between materials (hence conductivity) only helps in transient response of the system not steady state. Also the hotend fix on the Bowden type extruders is one of the first mods one can do.
Bottom line i agree with what you said in the summary, only worth doing this if you want to be able to print using higher temperature materials.
A comparison with a all metal non "bi-metallic" would be a interesting follow up...
Indeed. Another test print with low temperature materials such as PLA... to compare cogging issues would be nice as well
A comparison between this one, stainless steel all metal and titanium all metal, maybe even including OEM and knockoff parts (yes I know that would be a lot of work).
It depends from materials used. For me full metal was fine from PETG, flex, nylon to PC. The only problem I had is PLA - it is very sticky and when it sticks somewhere at the bottom of heatbreak I have problems, PTFE in heatbreak there was a solution. I can't see how bi-metallic heatbreak solves that problem.
@@lukes1978 agreed. I love my E3D titanium V6 heat break.
Are you using some form of heatsink compound on the heatblock side for installation? Seems like most guides talk about not using any kind of compound but I would think something like the Slice boron nitride paste would work well and act as an additional anti-seize. At least if your purpose is to put more heat at the heatblock side (since they're keeping copper there for similar reasons per the video). It also seems to look like some kind of paste is present in the video but perhaps it's my imagination.
Amazing! Must have been a lot of work to do the temperature simulations.
Yes, it was but the results are now really nice!
Hmm... may have to acquire one of these.
Why not cut the bowden tube so it won't retract. This is one of the first upgrades that everyone with an Ender 3 does. Also you can replace the part of the bowden tube in the end with one of better material. This solves all clogging problems for me; noted that I don't need high flow rates.
I like big nozzles and I cannot lie.
Sorry, had to be said. :)
Anyway, interesting video, Stefan, I had not considered using an all-metal heat break to increase flow rate. Guess I'll be checking out Slice Engineering now to see what I can find to fit my delta...
? maybe its too expensive but i have a ruby bead for my nozzel it never clogs and is super smooth layer by layer i think it was like $200 but it made a huge diffrence w what i print
Very nice Video! I'd be interested, in the change of low rate of the Prusa in comparison of the Ender.
14:06 UHh, you should do your own regular backups of your web data regardless of how fancy your host is. If you know how to install WordPress on a VPS, you can set automatic updates for everything because you'll have full control of the OS.
Interesting video Stefan! I got a Titanium V6 heatbreak for my MK3S to avoid PLA jamming because of the custom 'notch' the standard heatbreak uses for the MMU2. You mentioned known downsides for a titanium heatbreak, what were you referring to?
The stock Ender 3 heat break is 27mm long. It appears the Slice Engineering one is 28mm long, which sits the nozzle too low and messes up auto-leveling settings.
Considering they could have just cut it to fit, I have to wonder why they didn't.
This is pretty exciting, but printing with larger nozzles (1+mm) would make me really worry if it's a weaker material combination due to the propensity of forming and bumping into blobs. The genuine E3D titanium heatbreaks are cheaper, too.
I'm always intrigued how you show how genuine (real) parts deliver better results, yet the comments section is full of people boasting the results using their (insert you lame cloner brand here) they got for way less. I'd rather support companies that develop and improve new products versus the cloners who stamp their names on someone else's design and product development (shrug)
5:06 this increases my stress after hearing it happen then a minute later having a failed print
I had no idea there was a calibration print for retraction. I've been wanting to learn how to do calibration tests for my printer to fix the weird issues I have. It would be super cool if you could do a video talking about the different types of tests and prints you use to calibrate and test your printers. I'd love to know what you do to get such clean looking prints.
Search for teching tech's printer calibration guide. He provides a github with a great checklist for calibrating almost everything on your printer. Hope this helps.
"surgical" stainless steel is marketing, it's not used in surgery, it's something they starting slapping on jewelry years ago to confuse people about nickel content. It's just stainless steel, if you want be more precise, use the alloy code. (it's either 316 or 304...aka common stainless steels)
Have the microswiss all metal hotend on an old Wanhao i3 (heavily modded). I was thinking of throwing another heater in the hot block, it seems to struggle at higher print speeds with the Inland filaments and also if the part cooling 40mm delta fan comes on while its extruding, the temp drops as much as 5 deg. Also tried a 1.2mm nozzle, could at best print about 50% speed compared to the 0.4mm nozzle. Parts still came out much stronger and heavier than a 0.4, and were about 40% faster print time, but also used quite a lot more filament. I will try a few prints with the 0.6/0.8mm nozzles I have. Might be better suited for the prototyping I do.
DIsagree on your if only you were printing slow and with only PLA yadda yadda. I print fairly slow on my printer, 30-40mm/s typically, and moving to a all copper heater block with an all metal hot end has greatly improved my prints.Than using the stock Ender hotend. While this heat break would be a great upgrade to an stock hotend, the cost does not justify it. Where you can get great quality hot ends for a small addition to cost and have a hotend that is still vastly superior to the stock ender 3 hotend.
the worst ones are bare metal heat brakes that in contact with PLA filament
I'm designing a way to exchange whole hotend for a specific filament like for TPU/PC/PLA ...
so that one is only recommended for PC as I recommended it for and to go ~350c.
could you put a voltage across the heatbreak and achieve a cooling effect like a peltier module?
Waiting for the voron v0 video
Many of us are
It's coming!
The concern with the chinese heatbreaks is not that they do not work. Sure Slice and knock off bimetallic heartbreaks alike can be picky jamming with certain filaments, but they both work the same. However the problem comes if you crash into stuff or have a threaded cold end, it can fall apart. If you put a chinese one on a prusa and do not assemble the hotend in a very specific way it loosens the metal tube in the hot side and it randomly drops during a print. Had that happen twice before I learned better.
Your are the empirical guru just subscribed because I have learned so much from you!. I am on mission to learn all things possible to optimize print time and quality and find all your post very informative. I wanted to suggest another topic a roundup video. If a good heat break helps melting performance, and CHT nozzle + adapter (your other video) also helps, what results do a unified system of these two combined approaches produce?
Stefan, you mention there are problems with titanium all metal heat breaks. Please elaborate. I would also love to see a video which compares the performance, especially using low temperature PLAs which tend to get sticky and jam in steel heat breaks. So many people on the forums tend to push titanium as the solution.
Agreed. This is barely different than the MicroSwiss titanium upgrade I’ve used for years. Doesn’t seem like anything new to me.
Guten Tag Stefan, es wäre super wenn Du die Videos auch in deiner Muttersprache veröffentlichen würdest.
Auch jemand der deutsch schreibt hier nice
Hallo Stefan. Danke Danke Danke. Am liebsten würde ich dich ganz dolle für dieses Video und den Tipp für das Slice Engineering Heatbreak drücken. Boah, was für eine (frustrierende) Reise hatte ich hinter mir, bis ich dieses Video gefunden habe. Also ich habe eine Ender 3 V2 und drucke faktisch ein Set von Teilen in PETG. Das hat auch soweit ganz gut funktioniert bis das original PTFE auf Düse Konzept endgültig aufgegeben hat... Danach begannen alle nur erdenklichen Probleme... Kurz: Nach drei Wochen Experimentieren funktionert jetzt, mit diesem Heatbreak, endlich wieder alles so wie gewohnt und besser. Danke auch für die Vorarbeit für die Settings für den Rückzug. Passt beim Ender 3 V2 mit diesem Heatbreak und PETG exakt so. Nochmal: Danke Danke Danke!
Thanks for the tips. I really dislike the clicking sound, and am tired of breaking down my hot end (often) to clean out filament in the transition you describe. I have been searching for the “ideal” hot end ( Creality CR10S with a Micro-Swiss Direct Drive extruder ). I’ll check this out!
I bought the same style of heat break from Spool3D made out of titanium for the Ender 3 stock hotend. It worked great for CF nylon but clogged constantly with PLA even when oiling. I coated the heat break with a high temp thermal paste and it finally stopped clogging with PLA.
I finally switched to the Micro Swiss direct drive and all metal hotend kit and never looked back. Lol works perfectly. Just did my first TPU parts without any issues.
I currently got massive problems with heat creep printing PLA with my Prusa i3 MK2S MMU1. Tried everything together with the support of Prusa, like replacing the thermal paste and other stuff. Didn't really fixed the issue. I'll gonna definitely give this a shot. Hopefully, that fixes my issues.
So I got a update with really good news 😊 I got my copper heatbreak a few days ago. It fixed all extrusion issues I had with my MMU1. Big thanks Stefan for that recommendation.
One little thing is, that the lower part of the heatbreak is a bit longer than the original one from e3d. But some tweaking with my PINDA fixed that.
Why isn't there a heat shield between the lower nozzle end and the upper cooler? Seems the heat will rise straight up from the nozzle and skip the bi-metal part.
My experience with a bimetal heat break from biqu is a bit mixed. Performance is amazing, i have no issues with print uniformity, like in the video. However, the tube is a bit loose and does rotate a little bit, even tho it shows no indication of ever coming apart. A bigger issue is that long retractions, overpressure or pulling the filament out, without first pushing it a millimeter in before, results in molten plastic climbing in the cold zone and clogging the nozzle.
2y later and he never noticed that he ordered a kraken/chimera heatbrake.
Phaetus now has such heatbrake by default.
Bravissimo! Saluti dall' Italia
Thank you for the video. Excellent as always. I just ordered the copperhead based on this info. I previously tried two knockoff all metal hotends on my ender 3 pro. Both had terrible heat creep and constant clogging.
so well done man, your presentation of all the data leaves me feeling spoiled lol
Being able to increase the printing speed with one of these installed is good, but does that mean bridges come out worse with filaments like PLA because the cooling fan is already at maximum speed?
Then you have bad cooling fan setup if you are already running at 100% speed for PLA.
Is your thermal paste rated for these temps?
Many degrade before hitting 250°C
Now I've tried this and I feel betrayed. My Ender 3 worked perfectly before. I haven't been able to do a single successful print since I've installed the new heat break. The nozzle clogs eventually, even if everything seems to be working fine at the beginning. I have taken apart and put together the whole hot end assembly four or five times now.
Can anyone give me a hint? What I should look at to solve the clogging issue?
Is this modification to solve the non-printing? I have a first series Kobra and I am every day disassembling and reassembling. Any advice? Thank you very much.
Thank you Stefan, as I see you missed your last haircut before lockdown as well ;-)
You are right! That hair is almost 8 months in the making.
That brass hobb wheel from enter 3 is a complete garbage, they needed to fix it by pushing the filament harder towards it, but then as shown in the video the stepper motor can't keep up any more, and if you increase current it will start overheating.
I bought stainless steel one from E3D and it was gripping 100x better, unfortunately it had the OD too small to be used in ender 3.
Helped me alot (: thanks bro
What thermal paste did what thermal paste did you use? Most once are for computers and can't cope with too much heat 🤔.
Hey, could you make a video about the constant volumetric flowrate option in prusa slicer?
You mention the print artifacts from inconsistent extrusion rate, but how do you fix it?
1. Make sure that all of these flowrates result in a similar amount of underextrusion ==> flat part of the curve
2. Sometimes de-activating minimum layer time and just printing slow in general helps
3. You can even experiment with the "autospeed" functionality in PrusaSlicer
4. Get a proper hotend and feeder that extrudes well
@@CNCKitchen 1. Mine is odd, the hull of the benchy is under extruded but the cabin is over extruded with a bulge, at all extrusion rates.
2. My min layer time only comes into effect at the smokestack of the benchy
3. Using Cura...
4. I have a genuine E3D Titan Aero with a Slice Bi-metal heat break.
This is what Volcano for.
@@HotboiEngineering a good dual drive / gear extruder will push the same amount consistantly upto large resistance when the pla filament cant take it anymore and wears on the extruder to a little dip in the filament, while a stock ender 3 style will have varying degrees of slip depending on resistance
I replaced the heatbreak in my Artillery Sidewinder X1 for this with fantastic results.
Debating replacing the heatbreak on my Prusa MK3 as well.
Which model did you buy? Is your X1 a V4?
@@arianetrek7049 yep, a V4.
@@FTGTapGod Nice, I have a V4 too. Which heatbreak model did you chose for it? Slice has smooth and threaded models but I'm not sure of which one will fit
I clicked for the thermo Joke. I stayed for the content.
Arcol was making bimetallic aluminium/SS hotends a /decade/ ago - it's sad that it's taken this long for folks to realise that it's actually a good idea..
Another excellent video!
BTW, is it just me or is it that, as Thomas is having less and less hair, Stefan is having more and more! 🤣
One Russian youtuber, Dmitry Sorkin, about a year ago tested such a heatbreack from Triangle Lab on an E3D V6 (from aliexpress, a good company) and the result ... Not bad, but plastic leaked very slightly from the top in a few hours of printing. It did not affect anything, but it turned out unpleasant.
I order the copperhead Heat break c-e for my Ender max to avoid cloging 🙂 I place the order the feburary 11 and still waiting for it.
I change the ptfe tube for the capricorn ans should be good to restart it
13:04 I broke the thermistor bulb, somehow shorted the board, which I'm assuming should be with the current from the ceramic heater which also had some exposed section. Fried board, not fun.
I have 2 real slice ones. 2 25dollar ones and couple of cheap ones and honestly they all still caused Jams on my printers.
I love your testing protocols. Would it be possible for you to compare the ender with bimetallic heat break to a Phaetus Dragonfly hot end? The hotend does come with a bimetallic heatbreak, copper heater block and nozzle. I would be genuinely curious to see a 1 to 1 test, especially given I'm currently using one in my Prusa Mk2.5s.
99% have horizontal heating blocks but the vertical are much better.
No Seeback Effect?