How Server Meshing Brings Huge Player Cap & Performance Increases to Star Citizen
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- Опубликовано: 3 авг 2024
- While meshing 2 different star systems together is a big deal, and something we've waited years for, it's the performance and lack of population that really hurts Star Citizen. This is how server meshing aims to solve that.
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Server Meshing Explained: • The Key To Star Citize...
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00:00 I Was Wrong
01:12 Server FPS & You
04:02 Server Meshing Progress
07:50 What Does This Mean?
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#starcitizen #spacetomato #Servermeshing 
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What server FPS this game needs is debatable. I'm sure the target is 60+, but at least as of now, 30 FPS brings some major improvements.
Hopefully tests continue to show good results.
Hopefully 3.23 can contribute to a little bit of server performance!
What they gonna do with 800 people? they have 20 hangars at every spot.... remake everything again?
Well they always said they target for 30 Serverfps stable. Which is a realistic target, but i think for some calculations they aim for more FPS.
@@vrnorwaynorway6048 hmm hangars are probably all instanced. you get placed in a queue for taking off. dont take off in time, your slot is transferred to another person who has contacted ATC.
in 3.23
i was also able to spend a few hours on the server meshing playtests, i was shocked how responsive everything felt, not only the NPCs in Ghost Hollow etc, but also things like the Terminals, ATC and Looting. Can't wait for them to polish the tech and get it onto the Live Servers. Truly a game changer.
I hope we get pretty regular updates. It's a great start!
Very rarely i get 15 server fps and once we got a 25-30 server fps for two whole hours (server only had 12 players). Was the best SC exp i ever got, NPC that actually fought back, missions kept tracking everything without hickups and everything was awesome.
Thats a shame
What people dont seem to understand is that higher server fps does NOT mean better local framerate.
Local framerate and server framerate are 2 different things.
This is true, local frame rate will see improvement from things like the Vulcan renderer. But the client side FPS has always been relatively better than servers since they started adding planets.
@@SpaceTomato What I noticed ( at least in game) is that players believe and clinge to the idea of the game is running bad due to the server framerate, which is wrong. Yes, low server fps makes it harder to open doors or activate terminals but that is about it.
We can only wait and see how the server meshing will actually help.
It should really be called server tickrate (TPS) to avoid confusion.
@@brosquito7483 Yes, the fps server/tps won't have any impact in their own graphic performance. Only the the reactivity of the game like Ai, doors, etc. But if you take Tarkov for example, the difference of FPS betwwen small maps and big maps is still quite different, so somehow somewhere there is maybe still something that influence the fps (client side)
😅@@SpaceTomato
It felt like the 800 player test got bogged by character unstows. We might need personal habs in the game to help spread the burden - or at least the landing zone habs on thier own servers.
One of my favorite SC channels
Glad you enjoy!
Great video!
Btw, I like the visualization at 4:58 utilizing and editing the official slide. its great. I saw some other content creators also highlight the different server sections on the starmap across the different tests which I found very helpful, e.g. each planet as part of one server and the space between planets on another.
1:30 Btw, I wish more people would also go into the difference between simulation frames and image frames more. And that they have little do with each other. Although I do understand that this distinction isnt necessarily easy to do or even worth the effort.
The fact that both server and client are supposed to run at both 30 simulation frames, and then the client render as many image frames as CPU and GPU can manage separately is kind of missed a lot of times. And instead our image framerate is conflated with server FPS although they have nothing to do with each other.
Shout out to editor TenPound42 for that one, a great diagram.
I'm just excited to see progress, and so much of it this time around!
Insightful talk, thank you. Good to see you're up and running again! 🙌
Thank you Zark! Glad to be back up to speed.
Like your balanced, common sense approach to the game, more gameplay focused and balanced, with a $ cut off point. Its true, you don't need the biggest, baddest capital ship to enjoy the game.Kudos.
Just wanted to say you do an amazing job !!
your music is always great! also great video
Appreciate it :)
But these test were static Server Meshing, not dynamic Server Meshing, right?
Yes, this was only static meshing.
Correct, and they dont even have the fully working, or even inventet dynamic server meshing yet, they just wanna let you think they have 🤣 with the extremely lame servers we currently have, i dont see any servers working in the next many years.
@@kennethjensen730 huh? the servers are bad because everything in that 80million km wide map is in one server, every ship, every item, every player, every npc and so on.
server meshing allows to distribute that load into multiple servers and dynamic server meshing is simply server meshing but with conditions.. though it wont be that simple
Haha! Thanks tomato. I remember when you said this and I had to disagree with you about the server meshing not immediately showing some dividends. Appreciate the clarification :) keep up the great work
Happy they ran these tests!
Great vid as always! When do you think this build hits the PTU, so everyone can try it out?
Server Meshing itself will probably expand on testing over the summer, likely after 3.23 stabilizes. But that's just my opinion, no info on it afaik!
Very informative, as always :).
Im 3k into this game... was waiting for this sort of advancement to invest any more... well done CIG.
Thank you for the information.
Thank you for watching!
As always, great video !
Thanks!
I'm excited for them to start integrating Quantum.
nice, I'm soon going to start playing the game, I've had it for a while, but I haven't actually played the game since I first got it.
I'm thinking Ready Player One! This new server meshing in combination with game world meshing and we got the beginnings of "The Oasis" !!
Good vid. Gotta say though, Server FPS is not the only thing effecting AI, desync, etc., and increasing it is not a magic superfix. The frame count was higher during the SM tests but I wouldn't say performance improved at all in any tangible way. Even with 30 SFPS the NPCs were still derp city and desync was still horrible, as can often be seen in PTU builds. No mater how efficient the network, information takes times to travel, and there are so many moving parts interlinked on the backend of SC, it's not just a matter of that one number going up.
Absolutely not the ONLY thing!
The part about server FPS should be clipped into a short and thrown at every new player who talks about his/her awesome gaming rig not being able to play this "unoptimised 12yo alpha".
Non star citizen gamer here, but I am rooting for ya'll. Can't wait to play an unreal engine 5 MMORPG game using Star Citizens server meshing technology, developed by Bungie
unreal engine 5? you mean just graphically as this game uses its "own" star engine
@@permanent8387 im talking about a future game
Will start playing 3.23 when hangars are in place, for me its the core feature that marks the foundation for next level progressional gameplay, the new Map/UI and MM's are massive improvements, also hope for Ingame Ship price increases for 3.23, it'll make players more focused on gameplay, and less on greed. Pyro is set for summer, so fingers crossed
yeah toamto video!
will we get the first version of meshing in the next patch? or can we hope for this year?
Edit i am dumb, i rember that we will this see with 4.0 not before, but i hope it has some postive impact on perfoamnce.
and i have one majore question how big is the impact of people with a hige ping? Will we need a ping lock?
CIG said both server meshing and Pyro will arrive at the same time, in version 4.0, later this year. I'm guessing Q4 if they don't delay it.
It'll be 4.0 for sure.
tickrate is different from simulation time is different from netcode and is different from server fps which is the actual simulation updates sort-of...
Also mentioning shards, and how many players can be in a given space etc... clearly shows you didn't understand the concept they showed the last citizen con.
It's that the server only has authority of a smaller play space. It still receives information fgrom other servers, basically its just a player on the other server and streams data from them.
So, even if you are on a different server, you can see and interact with stuff on the other server.. there are no shards per-se (except instances spaces like hangars, and they showed off some mission spaces like for raids will get instanced with their own server and actually disconnected entirely. (could also be used for minigames etc. etc.)
But the question is not how many players can a server support.
No no, It is, how small can you divide the play-space into separate servers that stream stuff to each other for how many players one server can support and how fast transitioning from and to a server is.
You think I didn't pay attention to the replication layer?
The problem with this theory: it assumes that CIG won't cheap out by using as little aws servers as possible to save money.
CIG changed the server cap from 50 to 100 players not so long ago. Some theorized that it was a step needed to gather data for server meshing. As we see more of server meshing and how they've developed it, it seems more likely that they simply doubled the player cap to save money on spinning up more aws servers. With this in mind, what makes anyone think that even with server meshing, they wouldn't still cheap out and limit the amount of servers that spin up?
We'll have to see how it goes! The health of the game depends on it.
cant wait for this but also cant wait for DYNAMIC server meshing. once thats in and all the bugs are fleshed out... BOY, NOBODY knows how unstoppable CIG gonna be
Well seeing how our FPS went down the drain when doing the Overdrive mission at Karreha yesterday.
I will take any improvement
Not expecting a server meshing positive value to be in until CIG can effectively get a handle on 30k and game engine problems that have persisted for as long as ships were able to transit from a planet hanger. The underlying concept may be reachable but the replication layer and server meshing has also increased the causes for many of the basic problems in the alpha to date. Reiteration of the underlying causes to crashes and bugs that block gameplay will Just get worse if CIG does not address the root problems. It shows in all the releases gameplay videos where the player cap increases with the inclusion of meshed servers and use of the replication layer.
One day technology might advance to the point that we can actually have the world's population all on the same planet in SC all on the same server with the only limitation being that player bodies are literally taking up all the standing room. And I think that's neat.
yeah yeah, sure. i believe it when i see it. i give no trust credit upfront.
I just hope they fix the whole network system so items properly function. (Sometimes you want to loot/equip/transfer a item and it just does not reacti because the server is laggy and does not respond.) - I want to be able to play contracts back to back without being forced to change server because your ship, elevators or something different bugs out, which happens 2/3 of the time you play the game.
i doubt that this game can take more then 1-500 players... wait until Asmongold bring 20k players to one location ingame
I've said since the beginning, this should have been the first and only priority to build the game out. Its disrespectful how long many have suffered through brutally bad alpha versions of this game lol. So many bug fixes, ship updates, entire engine rebuilds...no server meshing until 10+ years later. Ask anyone why they don't play the alpha. They are running 4090's and cant get 15fps. Why the fuck bother having an alpha at that stage.
I've been wanting to try out the PTU (3.23), but I keep getting a 19K error, login timeout... frustrating.
Tomato talks are the videos I enjoy the most.
9:17 no links in the end video ;)
can you do a video about thing star citizen need in the game
If i rember right tomato has a video about this, but its still a supporter exulsive video, i hiligy recomand to sub to him so many great videos!
@@anno-fw7xn thank you
Things to do in the game, episode one is on this channel posted in January!
@@SpaceTomato thank for the video
Star citizen is growing up
Did you took a Look on their Financials?
Anybody able to explain how this is different from games such as Entropia Universe which are already doing this or something similar since over a decade?
If it already has issues such as rotation of planets between server partitions, get ready to enjoy lots of rubberbanding among other latency related issues for these servers.
Seamless =/= Flawless connection
Absolutely. Join my discord and I'll give you a rundown. Until then, you can check out this talk: ruclips.net/video/32ugYk7tqgI/видео.htmlsi=EbXb66fukcaCL5xD
House of the Tomato
Hopefully this allows large organizations to play naturally instead of join friend server spamming.
Well, test haven't even been done with multitple capital ship sucking all the ressource. It's kind of struggleing in the actual state starting from 200/300 pop with no capital ships. so Large organizations will still just pop small/medium ships XD
Well we don't have Org tools in the game so this won't change anything since they simply will fill a shard and when that fills up they will spool another one up just like we do now.
I'll be back in a year to see if something changed.
Cheers! Hope it's a good year for you!
Come back in a month and you’ll have your wish granted
Copy that. See ya in a year my dude
I've doing this for 5 - 6 years. 😂😊
@@manuelbarreto7032 11.5 here
Asmond Gold just did a reaction video to your Server Meshing video. Oh shiznit! o7
About to retire and hopefully get back in to the game on a more serious level.
Isn't it a world first? I don't know of any other game doing it.
Every MMO since 1997 has used server meshing, games like Ultima Online, lineage 2 and WoW that are games from over 20 years ago all use it. In lineage 2 they would use rivers and cities as server boundary points and if you had a good PC the transition was smooth also things like mobs ran on a separate server so if the mobs suddenly vanished everyone would run for a safe place knowing the server was going to crash so when you logged back in you wouldn't die to fresh mobs.
@@rooster1012 yes, but I think people in general need to differentiate more. Most of those existing solutions didnt allow for game objects to interact across these boundaries or even being able to look into the other server. And of course the dynamic aspect of moving game areas onto different servers on-demand (although CIG doesnt support this yet, but their tech should for it rather easily already). I think, as in the perceived experience, Second Life comes closest to this current implementation but even that had its issues and limits. Mainly because you were also able to look into other servers, although interact across servers was limited and transitions not always seamless.
So I think, this discussion shouldnt be solely about server transitions. I propose there is more to these new implementations. So I think the implementations of Dual Universe SpatialOS and Star Citizen (and a few others) to still be a relatively new type. Or at least it only has very few games. If thats because the tech is still new, or because of other reasons (technical, economical viability, gameplay implications, etc.), I dunno. SpatialOS games seem to have been struggling and Dual Universe performance for clients wasnt that great either.
Mortal Online 2 already has this tech
@@PathologicGaming where can I read up on that. I googled but they lost me on latency normalization. like what is that? Isnt that just a different word for lag compensation techniques used in most multiplayer games?
wait until Asmongold bring 20k players on one location
What we'll see is jankiness of AI was hidden by poor server performance, there's tons of issues with the navigation mesh, particularly in cases where multiple AI are at the same position, they get stuck, or even have trouble orienting themselves, so they appear to zig zag along a path instead of turn into the path.
I absolutely still think the AI will perform with issues, but this is going to help a lot as we can already see simply with newer servers. Hope this gives them more room to work on the REAL issues!
@@SpaceTomato For sure, more stable servers means easier debugging, more progress!
The last time there should have been a huge performance increase CIG increased the player count + AI count leading to a net performance loss, i'm 100% this will be the case this time too.
cool story bro.
That should not be the case. Server meshing if you look at it simple splits off sections of the game to run on different servers. That alone will reduce server load. The main issue with the tech was making it where the transition from one server to another is seamless and without a loading screen. It's also been one of the key features for the long run needed to make the game reach the potential CIG described with the road map. I get it too, games been in development hell for 10+yrs and it's been a long game to hold out hope for. However what we have not had from other AAA studios that release products that are disappointing is transparency. Allowing the community to be a part of the development of the game says a lot about what they are trying to do. If the game eventually flops then do be it, however I appreciate them trying to create something so unique that it could change the landscape of gaming forever. The tech that they have developed is cutting edge and could make it to where the MMO category of gaming no longer considered a low visual quality or level of detail experience.
What they need badly is player culling, no pc will be able to play smoothly with 150+ players on screen at once unfortunately. They need a way to change all players around the player to lower quality dynamically based on your pc specs to allow seamless gameplay with hundreds of players or else those with lower specs will crash out.
dumb it down like for a console you mean? :P
yes, and CIG are aware. They mention this as part of the Q&A, having to implement limitations and tricky to prevent too many players in one location from resulting in bad client performance.
There are some tricks like Dual Universe employed, by reducing updates sent to clients by object distance to the player. Not sure if Client OCS already supports this tho. I guess you could use all sorts of rendering solutions to optimize on that end too. Like, as you mentioned, culling entities beyond a certain distance, which would be kind of harsh. Maybe using the same instance of low poly LoD for all far away players would be another solution. In general, I wonder how they want to keep VRAM around 8GB max for these kinds of scenarios when a lot of different game objects are on screen. It would require a lot of reuse of the same textures, geoemetry and shaders across ships, players armors and items.
It's frustrating to hear this talked about again and again, but people are missing the cause and not the correlation. Yes, server meshing is going to help server FPS, but people are basing a lot of assumptions off of the recent tests where fresh servers get brought online for a few hours. They see high server FPS, and mistakenly assume that it's because of server meshing, and forget that even in live, brand new servers have high server FPS. In the future, dynamic meshing will most likely improve server FPS either due to reducing memory leaks / optimizing server usage, or recycling servers once they hit a FPS threshold.
We can have static server meshing in place, but in the current configuration, unless those servers are getting rotated out every ~12 hours, the server FPS will eventually tank. The current issues with server FPS have nothing to do with player count and everything to do with a server running for a long amount of time, and while it's running, slowly experiences performance degradation due to some kind of leak / inefficient coding. That issue exists completely outside of meshing. So we really can't base any assumptions off of tests that have servers that only run for ~4 hours.
so what exatly is the driffrent between that and destinys social spaces with 250 fps ?
Server FPS vs a Map like onboard an Idris could be different based on usage. On an Idris where Players are doing FPS combat, the Map is mostly Static. On a Planet, or in the Hangar Bay aboard an Idris would be more Dynamic where ships could shoot the FPS players from outside the ship.
I think a Smart Dynamic Server FPS is the solution based on the environmental map that gameplay is happening at.
When you have 10 Virtual Servers all broadcasting between each other. That is where a High Ping is bad and a Bottleneck will happen.
Server to Server FPS will be the bottleneck and the Clients surrounding those servers will feel the latency of not being able to react before a ship explodes. This is why I think Master Modes was put in, to slow down how fast a ship could enter and exit another ships server.
I think you'll find it's actually pronounced Tomato Talk, not Tomato Talk.
Hand shaking and security replication will improve from server meshing and Chris Roberts should start a whole new company. I hope Chris realizes what he has developed. It will prevent injection hacking, spoofing attacks and clean up band width across the entire internet. This is more exciting than people know and I hope more people will use meshing and security methods in the future.
Also note that if those 700 people all go to one point in the system, the local server that handles that spot will still just keep up and die.
o7
I think 300-500 players per star system is plenty for now, as it already will tax computers too much to render in all other characters and ships and the physics of it all in real time. regardless of the server quality.
in 5-10 years from now when computer hardware has improved maybe slowly increase the server caps to allow more players.
just say tickrate
Wish there could be some kinda partnership with Elon and SpaceX/Starlink, that would allow for some Starlink based cloud-network covering the world in a globe-sized, wireless, decentralized virtual server shard, that everyone would connect to(if such a thing is even possible, simply wishful speculation). I mean, why can't server meshing be used in such a way in real life?
Umm, no, Starlink has MORE latency than standard methods, not less. People need to stop drinkin' the Musk Kool-Aid.
Latency would be far worse than standard fiber as you upload to a satellite then the satellite downloads to a ground station that then transmits to the standard connection for that region and then sends the data. The fact is you are limited by the speed of light and Elon doesn't have magic powers to break the laws of physics.
@@rooster1012 who said anything about magic? If you are allergic to dreams and hope, you must live a bleak existence.
how the fans of this Ponzi scheme still believe in this grift is amazing!
Oh boy oh boy oh boy. This will become huge. already waiting for the "All SC bugs gone" clickbait videos from the usual suspects.
No shit that this still exists 😂
IOW, nobody knows what server meshing really is. Even the people claiming to know, virtue signaling to know ~ don't know. Can one person anywhere say in layman's terms say what server meshing really is or does? Just one person, is that too much to ask? The usual attacks don't count against those like myself trying to understand it when nobody else knows either..
Video after video of BS is all I see about server meshing....
We don’t need increased servers we need the base game to fucking function. Why am I fighting ai that just stand still, rubber band and take 1000 bullets to die. Focus on the scripts being able too run. 2:22
You are missed the main point. With higher Server FPS, AI will work better and rubberband less. So Server Meshing is in fact the solution to many of those problems mentioned.
Adding more AI capabilties tho, that would also be a good thing and not enabled by Server Meshing. But even those additional AI capabiltiies were mentioned in the video with citations from devs. So, I think you lost the plot a bit.
edit: also, the bullet spongeness is supposedly being fixed soon with fixing certain the hitboxes of armor peripherals like backbacks. This was also mentioned in the dev post on Spectrum shown in the video.
The 1 person who downvoted this must be really salty. Bet they still think SC is a scam somehow :P
SCAM CITIZEN
Yeah GET EM!
@@SpaceTomatoYEAH YOU HEARD HIM, SCAM! A SCAM GAME WITH LUKE SKYWALKER IN IT 😂 seriously what is bro on
We talk here again about future, we never had anything on hand I'm really sorry but all this is but so long time and never actually happen.
No this is past. The tests have happened, the servers ran with 700+ people, it's proven tech, it just won't be on the LIVE servers until 4.0
@@SpaceTomato wait, is it not coming with 3.23?
@@daudkhawaja5064 3.23 is supposedly just the Replication Layer Split. Static Server Meshing with Pyro would follow in a later 3.XX patch, which would then be turned into 4.0.
Why do streamers insist on talking about things they do now know about.... smh
Humanity didnt know many things in the past. How did they learn that? I am sure people talked lots about things they didnt understand yet to get a better understanding of it. Maybe its just about sharing and learning through discussion?
Overall, the statements in the video were accurate. So I am not sure what your point is. Mind elaborating?
@@SETHthegodofchaos There is a difference between chatting and announcing. He is often wrong.
@@DrakeStardragon sure, and so are most people everyday. if people want informed, factual info then they should read lots of papers instead. but most people dont want a degree in something to be able to talk about it.