Repentance first requires acknowledgement. Thats my way of seeing these things. I haven't heard much acknowledgement or repentance from the leadership. In fact, they won't even use the word apologize
Agree 100%. No acceptability literally for anything ever. Claim prophets, seers and revelators that cannot ever astray but whether screw up or the older church leader totally blew it.. their answer is always, “Well we’re just men trying our best to listen to God” Or better yet “We don’t know detailed things because we are ‘General Authorities”.
Exactly. When I remembered sins I'd committed over the years...I didn't till later because I was dissociative all my life until I healed, I repented and acknowledged my sin but I just see cover ups. What does that mean about sincere repentance? Maybe they are dissociative like I was. Maybe they are living 2 lives at the same time? I dunt know? I can't judge them. I dunt want to leave the church , I love the church. But I see this heavily esp in leadership.
I agree but would offer some counterpoints. The church as a corporation (even though it may not legally be so), cannot admit wrongdoing or it would open itself up to lawsuits. Much of those lawsuits would be frivolous and waste the funds of the church (which I know they have in exceeding abundance) even though there might be legitimate lawsuits that could be brought. I do think the leadership should make it clearer that there have been things done wrong in the past and we are trying to rectify them now. I remember during the celebration for the priesthood/temple ban being "lifted" that Pres Oaks said he prayed about this many times and wanted to understand it and never felt like he understood why. I don't know if he actually knows this and didn't want to say it but maybe the reason he doesn't understand why it was in place is b/c it was never right to begin with!
Doesn't this all boil down to the Gospel vs. the Church? Plenty of branches-from Joseph Smith’s to the Catholic Church-can trace authority back to Christ, but what really sustains true authority? While church structure helps with unity, it's not perfect at preserving doctrine. Maybe Jesus wanted us to focus on his Gospel personally, not just through an organization. Living the Gospel might mean finding communities that actually live out service, truth, and compassion like Christ taught, while staying grounded in solid doctrine. For LDS members aware of past missteps, this view allows full commitment to Christ’s teachings within an imperfect Church. Ultimately, real worship and growth come from following Gospel values, not relying solely on the institution.
At best organized religion is the precepts of men mingled with scripture, at worst it's the precepts of men mingled with scripture “whose founder is the devil” (1M14.9). Both cause man to stumble and to err. Pure religion is man embracing the great commandments. The first is loving God. "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. ‘Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father’ (James 1.27) is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." - Joseph Smith
So if the church leaders can go against God, do basically anything they want that is wrong, there is no way they would be considered to be in apostasy? This goes against everything I taught while a missionary.
Not to be contentious but please explain the confusion of the original 12 Apostles as well as their disagreements after Christ was risen. I thinks it’s right to say that he is not a God who will suffer confusion for long while he has his priesthood on the earth, but that’s a relative concept. God is also long suffering. So how long would he allow an error to continue to let people have a chance to correct it before he needs to intervene? It’s also a little inconsiderate to say that in our position here on earth after the restoration has occurred. Many many people were left in confusion before and after Christ and the great apostasy. I think the amount of things we are saying are “confusing” is response to this video are minimal and trite compared to things people used to believe and/or lacked until this dispensation.
It's not confusion. We are in the wilderness and in the mists, "seeing through a glass darkly". It promotes agency, seeking God, and provides opposition in all things.
I'll keep this succinct, b/c there is a lot more to this. Our teachings on what His church has been distorted. The Church has become an idol. His church is not a government-registered organization, and "there are save two churches only" (1N14.10). Simply put, 'church' (Greek: ekklēsía (ek, "out from and to" and kaléō, "to call") means 'called out ones'. His church is His body, it is they who are one in Christ. How do we become one with Christ? And "the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God," (1N14.12) The saints are those who are walk in the Spirit, who have gifts of the Spirit. (Read 1 Corinthians 12) Even in Joseph's day His church already existed as we read in Section 10.50-55 (circa 1828). Compare that to Section 1.30. These passages are referring to the same thing. The only way to have a living church is to have saints who have received the Holy Ghost (again read 1 Corinthians 12). The LDS Church is very full of pride to boast that Church Inc is the only true church. His shurch is not limited to a denomination. And members of our Church can also be members of the church of the devil. We need to remember, repent and continue in righteousness.
I love how you are approaching these topics - acknowledging the facts while providing sound logic and context for how to move forward... Love your summarizing the history of God consistently working through flawed people. As a local leader in the church, I am very aligned... It does lead to an interesting question for me - if the early apostles had the authority and ordinances from the Savior - could not some church's argue the same logic - yes, lots of corruption, but the authority has continued with that church for all the reasons you gave for the post Brigham Young church? At some point, the Lord has His limits in accommodating human weakness.... Keep up the GREAT work!!!
By this argument, wouldn't it make the Catholic Church the true church? If you take your argument to its logical conclusion, apostasy is impossible, because all that matters is an unbroken chain of authority, doctrine and ethics are irrelevant.
I would say that an important distinction is that the apostolic authority was not passed down. Just as Alma would not been able to regain his priesthood authority if he never got it, how could that institution continue if that authority was lost? That and when an institution rejects general revelation, how can God accept that as His church when its adherents are would reject further light and knowledge?
Did Alma stay in King Noah’s church or did he leave? Did the followers of the way stay in the Jewish church or did they leave? Perhaps starting with the premise that the Lord needs a “vehicle” such as a corporation, rather than the vehicle of His word, or doctrine, is causing false conclusions. Remember that He defines His church as those that repent and come unto Him. It is people, not a telestial organization. Jesus told the Jews to follow the law of Moses, but not to follow the leaders, because it was not yet fulfilled. When it was, they no longer participated in the Jewish rituals and ordinances. Alma received power and authority from God through his repentance and willingness to follow God’s commandments, just as we all can, not because of some imagined priesthood line of authority. Whether in a religious organization or not, power comes through our faith and relationship with God. By your argument, why doesn’t every restoration branch have authority? Are you saying the Brighamite branch is the correct one, simply because it is the biggest? It is comforting to believe that ordinances are still valid regardless of righteousness, but that doesn’t make it true.
This is important and interesting to consider. Yes there is for sure a pattern of leading out a remnant, and yet the group they remnant leaves still has significance and purpose. Take for example Lehi. He was led away from Jerusalem. A corrupt church was left behind. Inside that corrupt church there were still faithful members who served the Lord. Fastforward to Jesus' time and we find many who were needed to fulfill important roles like Mary and Joseph, Jesus, Elizabeth and Zechariah, John the baptizer, the disciples, Paul, etc. Some will be led out (for the Lord's purposes), some will be led to stay and serve where they all.
What about his points about Jesus and him telling people to go show the priests or people still worshipping in the temple? It’s so confusing, I really think we have to be in tune with the spirit and the Lord will lead us, maybe some feel inclined to stay for a reason yet others feel moved to go.
@@Hmcc0712that was Jesus telling them to keep the law of Moses, until it was fulfilled. After it was fulfilled, they no longer participated in the Jewish religion. My point is not to tell people to leave. It is to say that you don’t need to stay because of “priesthood authority”. Come unto Jesus with a broken heart and contrite spirit and ask Him what He wants you to do. He is the only keeper of the gate.
For me Alma clarifies if the church is necessary. “Behold I say unto you, do ye suppose that ye cannot worship God save it be in your synagogues only?”
Has nothing to do about the church not being nrcessary. Christ comes to the Americas and established his church without question. To imply or assume the church isn’t necessary since we can worship at anytime or any place is quite different. The church is the members of the body of Christ and it is through this organization the ordinances of salvation are manage through.
@ the church and its organization has existed only a drop in the bucket of history and among all people. Christ establishing a church among the Nephites doesn’t mean it is required for making it to heaven or to worshipping God. If it did most people would be excluded.
@ the church is the organization for all the saving ordinances and especially work for the dead. Why have a restoration of keys to Joseph who then was commanded to organize the church if it isn’t required? The point of the referenced scripture is about worship not if a church is necessary or not. We read into things that the text doesn’t actually support.
Lehi didn’t deal with it and left his home, left his congregation and took his family with him. What’s your thoughts on us that see it and take our families into the wilderness to be taught from on high?
Amen! Great thought! Apostasy has been the cause of God's wrath throughout scripture. Its not a new concept. Revelations is written to all those churches in a state of apostasy within the lifetime of the Apostles who lived and worked with Him , saw his death, burial, and resurrection. I at one time thought it a thing of the past but as 2 Thessalonian 2 says, there will be a great falling away before the Man of Lawlessness appears. Heads up. I think he's here.
Thank you for your words. I have had the same thoughts. I have looked around at other Churches. I still believe this is Christ Church and where He wants me to be.
So why if a man has his priesthood revoked for sin today he is not allowed to perform ordinances but if BY and others were wicked they could still use their priesthood and it is still valid??
True, if someone today lived and taught the falsehoods that BY did, they would be exed and could they then go start a new church and it be true because they were once given supposed authority? This is contrary to what Jesus taught, even if Joseph seemed to think authority stays with a person despite unrighteousness. Jesus taught that unrighteousness invalidates a person's authority or worthiness to lead.
The JST of Matt 24 debunks your last point. It says “All, therefore, whatsoever they bid you observe, that they will make you observe and do; for they are ministers of the law, and they make themselves your judges. But do not ye after their works; for they say, and do not.”
There is still an assumption here that 1. the Lord needs an organization run by men to contain a certain authority and 2. that these men were actually called of God and didn't just put themselves there in power. Jeremiah 23 rubukes those who call themselves prophets and speak things in the name of God that he didn't tell them to say. Much of what Brigham taught goes against scripture. In my opinion the idea of continuing revelation becomes very problematic when there is a belief that a certain man speaks for God. What does one do when that new revelation goes against Scripture or previous instruction that was thought to be God's word? Now days they say in conference that the new stuff overwrites the old. We even had a high council talk last spring that said the current prophets words are more important than scripture. What??? It opens the door for leaders to say anything they want! God wants a relationship with each one of us. A true prophet should lead you to develop that relationship so you can get your instruction from God. And while i do think a community of true believers is a good thing, I don't think it has to be an organization. Men eventually corrupt every organization they get their hands on.
I think organized community is essential-what does it matter to have the commandments in isolation? Even with the major flaws within the LDS church organization, I think total dissolution would have far more severe consequences in the negative direction. Better to just recognize the potential for fallibility and double check anything a leader says with personal revelation.
The organization cannot be top-down through “authority”. The organization is supposed to be organic, from the bottom-up. The “church”, as defined in D&C 10, is all those who repent and come unto Christ. The church is not an institution, it is not a building, it is not a 501c3. The church is supposed to rise up from the hearts and minds of individuals - more of a spiritual entity - who are of one heart and of one mind. Just like a beehive
@steel6322 The Great Apostasy was just that, an apostasy. There were those who like Conner, Michelle Stone, Jeremy Hoop, and Denver Snufer who are seeking to influence the church away from God's chosen prophets and apostles he ordained to be the heads of this church. John the Apostle was the known leader of the church, but others took over. How did you not know about that? " I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church." (3 John 1:9-10)
Yes Brigham did…I’ve never felt good about him, often feeling guilty for listening to his “dark” teachings. Brigham was a Fallen Man whom I believe never was a prophet!!!
You can't have it both ways you can't have the church today is true but all the prophet's and leadership of the church who practiced polygamy are bad. The whole tree would die without the roots.
Problem is, you can’t get a recommend and partake of the ordinances in the temple without pledging allegiance to the leaders. If the leaders are corrupt (have even changed the ordinances), then those leaders can prevent you from exaltation if you don’t conform to their corruption. This doesn’t make any sense. I usually agree with your musings but the cognitive dissonance in this one is too much
The temple recommend question is do I believe the church leaders hold the keys. That is, thankfully, a very narrow question that allows me to participate in saving ordinances without “following the prophet” when he’s otherwise leading us astray.
We don't pledge allegiance. We sustain as prophets, etc. I agree with Connor that a mortal man can be a prophet and still be fallible. Not everything out of their mouths is prophetic and revelatory. Most of the time they are experienced men who are sharing advice and counsel. Most of the time it is good, or at least harmless. My sustaining doesn't include complying with anything that is wrong, according to God and The Scriptures.
@@Robin-ge2qc It’s mostly good and harmless until the supreme sustained leader, the supposed “ONLY one” wih the keys, misleads millions of people into the hands of the very conspiring men the scriptures warned about. We might be complying with more that is wrong than we think. I dunno, I’m seeing the church depart farther and farther from the doctrine that I see in the pages of the BoM
My problem is that the church has not repented of its paths of wickedness. 6 figure living stipends are not supported by the scriptures. The LDS church has a paid ministry if you get high enough. "26 And the priests were not to depend upon the people for their support; but for their labor they were to receive the grace of God, that they might wax strong in the Spirit, having the knowledge of God, that they might teach with power and authority from God." Mosiah 18:26 To further prove the point, research when Alma said he got paid by the people. The churches business dealings are dishonest. They use and abuse the poor. They create the poor. Not even a whisper of caring for their fellow man. They make a big show of their donations to the UN, American Red Cross and other organizations all the while they neglect the foster-care system. They neglect those injured by their actions in business. The members donate greatly, while the church leadership loves its back room deals. "For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted." "(A)nd your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts." "O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?" Mormon 8 applies to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints more than it applied to the churches at the time of Joseph Smith.
@@allthingsarepossiblethruchrist Connor had a musing about that a while back. I evaluate the actions in the now. Moses was a part of who knows how many Egyptian things. Alma the Younger was a participant in Noah's court. People can repent. I look at the now, not throw mud at what the people did in the past after they have changed and repented.
@@allthingsarepossiblethruchristthats because the skull and bones President Nelson was part of did not resemble anything close to what it is now. It was nothing more than a social club where people could do activities together.
@wheels636 @wheels636 where did you get that information from? The University of Utah admitted that one initiate literally went crazy during the ceremony. He caused lots of damage to the University and was hospitalized. It was in the Universities newspaper
At 21:30 you make the faulty assumption that Growth = God’s Work. In this Telestial world there has been many examples where Might does not equal Right; in fact it is often the opposite. In the last days, “they have ALL gone astray save it be a FEW, who are the humble followers of Christ… because they are taught by the precepts of men.” (2 Nephi 28:14; see also Mormon 8:36 & 1 Nephi 14:12)
Wow. That says what I was saying to my husband the other day. I told him I don't hear any revelation. The just say the same things that others say. Vomit is a great way of saying it.
I appreciate your honest, straight forward explanation. I mostly appreciate your respect, and grace. I have been listening to a few people who have a feeling of defensiveness and anger. Even if they don't want that. You are calm, well studied and non-judgmental. Our family enjoys your books and understanding This was good! I'm glad I listened and like your explanation. Id like to say it feels good 😊 but I know I need to make sure God is teaching me alongside what you are saying. Something I have realized as my life plods along is all these beliefs are still passed down. I remember my mom making statements about the gospel... False doctrine taught by her leaders and parents. It just was the teaching As I have gotten older I have realized a few things... When I repeat them or ponder them I just "know" something isn't right. Some of these things you talked about I actually didn't even know what they meant. But I remember being taught tidbits. Interesting as well, many were countered by teachings in the BOM 🤔 I can feel many things being taught now are off a bit and signs of our culture as a nation and church I am grateful for the Spirit of God that guides me.
Your mention of Hugh Nibely reminds me of my reading of Approaching Zion. Nibley seemed to be castigating members and even leadership. Moreover, he seemed to cast a critical light those who sought money, wealth over spirituality or drawing closer to Christ. He specifically mentioned MLMs and its prevalence in Utah.
Even if Joseph did, Jesus did not teach that authority is how you tell a true church or a true prophet, but by whether or not the person, prophet or church really lives and follows all of his teachings, which he knew no one could for no one is perfect, thus his point to only follow his teachings and not imperfect mortals. For any church or prophet can claim true authority, as most do, but who really follows the pure teachings of Christ?
By that thinking, then wouldn't any or all of the branches from Joseph's original church (Community of Christ, FLDS, Etc) or even perhaps the Catholic Church and or all of it's branches be true churches with real authority? Since they likely had members and leaders who were once given such authority? Jesus didn't teach that growth determines a true church or a true prophet, for then couldn't the Catholic Church be considered the true church? Falsehoods actually attract more followers than truth, so a church that taught feel good falsehoods would likely be much larger than one that taught the difficult truths that Jesus taught. It seems all religions and churches and scriptures teach a mix of truth and error, including Joseph's original church, thus why Jesus seemed against formal religion and even against following so called prophets, for there are no perfect people to lead a church and not always have people be led astray by imperfect prophets and leaders who will often be wrong or unrighteous. It seems Jesus just wanted us to follow his simple natural law teachings on our own, that we can prove are truth by experience over time and not put our trust in man to lead us.
Secular history would make the Pope God's authority on earth as it's history can be traced from Peter to the present Pope, and it is growing in numbers by very good people reactivating or joining but without full approval of the current Pope's policies.
stop making stuff up, Jesus was baptized by the one prophet they had at the time, and he attended synagogue every week and the temple three or four times a year.
@@BrianTerrill That does not seem very likely given many of his teachings, for he didn't seem to believe in his religion. How would we know if what the Gospels say about him is true and what he really did, for we weren't there? We only have his teachings to go on, not what people claimed he did, etc. Many of his teachings contradict each other, so they can't all really be from him and likely aren't when we study how the Gospels came to be.
@Posi2300 talk specifics what teachings are you saying contradict one another, I hate reading this horse crap that people say he taught without actually being shown some specifics abd I've read the Journal of Discourses.
The fruits of the gospel have nothing to do with organizational size, wealth, or multi-million dollar buildings. It is angelic visitation, healing, revelation, etc. If these things cease it is due to unbelief. Incorrect beliefs is unbelief. Also, Christ wanted compliance to the authorities of Judaism as a testimony to them that he was God and he had not yet redeemed men via his sacrifice. John wrested the kingdom from the Jews according to Joseph Smith and Christ came from outside the established order.
My friend, insightful as usual. Although I really think you are stretching on this conclusion. I personally can’t find any way for sincere seekers of truth to fit into the LDS church.
So when did Brigham young and following church leaders repent of these false doctrines? When has the church repented? The church doest practice polygamy( in this life)but still supports and teaches it. Blacks and the priesthood? "Men are punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgressions" right? I'll continue to turn to the Lord and his proven prophets in the BOM and Bible, not a prideful organization that requires money for my salvation... sorry I'm poor.
God never called his prophets by voting consensus. You might argue Joseph was. None of the following claimed to be called of God by him appearing to them.
I always appreciate your thoughtful musings. This is no exception. I do respect that you've spent a lot of time on this... but what if Pres Nelson reinstituted Polygamy again today? Scripturally, he could justify it, with Sec 132. Even the Family Proclamation doesn't exclude the possibility of homes with more than one wife. It has always been implied that (like Emma) women condone supporting their husband in plural marriage to receive the highest level of exaltation. We ignore that today, but it is there in sec 132. My personal study of this issue has been relatively recent, but protracted over seven years. I feel like you are in the early stages of realizing the problems, but are still making excuses because of..... keys and line of authority. Prophets absolutely do and can get it wrong. And when it's a "current" issue...it can cause a ton of destruction. For not following the prophet on the jibbyjab issue, we were excoriated and shunned by family, friends, our ward, and my husband had his job threatened for 2.5 years. It felt like total catastrophe. Unforgiveable really, but it would have been nice to consider forgiving if only any sort of apology or recognition of wrong-doing was offered. Still waiting. Yet, the damages and death and pain brought on by this "misstep" are all around us, stacking up in the room like rotting carcasses. Polygamy is similar in nature. You might be 5th or 6th generation like me in so many family lines of ancestors that decided to follow Brigham. The 1852 polygamy revelation read by William Clayton wasn't something that was easily ignored. You were required to be rebaptized. You were prodded to make that blood oath in the endowment house. You were surrounded by hundreds of miles of unforgiveable wilderness and desert, so without money and means you couldn't just leave. Generations suffered at the hands of those coerced into polygamy. Perhaps your grandmothers who were burdened by the "blessing" or "command" left their thoughts. One of my grandmothers lamented in her autobiography that she never had a day of rest once her husband took other wives. She was abandoned and unloved. Raised 10 kids on her own. Walked 10 miles or more a day for work just to have enough meal to feed her family. I wish she was the only example. There are several. Did you know that Joseph Smith, in a lecture given in Nauvoo, prophesied that those who entered into the practice... would curse their families for up to four generations? Is it just a coincidence that the fifth and 6th generations of these ancestors are FINALLY coming to terms with this great evil thrust upon their ancestors, waking up to the false traditions of their fathers? I have let go of my expectations with the institution I learned so much from, took so much pride in, and absolutely adored being a part of for 50+ years. Following leaders in error because of keys and authority.... feels comfy and cozy. I'd love to do it. But to me, the realization has come all too clearly that generations literally hang in the balance when 'missteps' happen. And the institutions led by these men become really uncomfortable and even hostile when you are non-compliant. I felt completely trapped during the "jibbyjab" trial. I wish my ancestors had figured out a way to escape what they recognized as... questionable and "hard" doctrine in polygamy. (I actually do have one grandfather that packed up and left...and it was a harrowing escape.) When Jesus visited the Nephites he first taught faith, repentance, baptism. He taught them it was the doctrine of Christ. And not to add or subtract from it. Why have we ADDED so dang much? Do we believe our own scriptures? Do we believe Christ? Do you have a line? Or are we really just supposed to be what feels like "luke warm"....and accept the good with the bad because hey, the keys and authority are here. I feel so much peace recognizing that ultimately, the authority is with Christ. Anything that gives me the "icky" vibes.... and is an addition or subtraction of the doctrine of Christ.... is just out for me these days.
You explained well what I am been trying to wrap my thoughts around. There was one other example that I think is one of the most powerful examples of recognition of authority. Jesus remained silent while the priests, etc., were questioning him in his spurious trial. Matthew 26 62-65. They ask him many questions. But Jesus holds his peace. Then the high priest says "I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God." That is when Jesus makes an answer to them. Thus, by His example He recognizes their authority (to their detriment).
So, did BY lead the people of the church astray? If so, why did it take God 25-30 years to remove him? Did BY ever have the keys of the priesthood? Can a wicked man hold the keys?
Because despite teachings to the contrary God lets man choose. Every dispensation has ended in corruption. Brigham leading the church would have been like Judas taking over leadership of the church.
Where do you get the idea that God removes corrupt leaders? You won’t find that teaching in the scriptures, simply in the teachings of the false leaders.
The quorum of the 12 were never suppose to run the church. . They were only to go our into the world to preach the gospel to those without it. BY changed all that to position himself to be in charge.
Not quite accurate. Saul was removed and his throne given to David. Jehu was sent into Jerusalem to remove Jezebel who slew her and dogs ate almost all of her before they could bury her as God promised. Remember the king in Daniel who God warned by writing on a wall that he would die for his evilness and he did the next day. Sometimes God gives us who we deserve and seek after just before He delivers His wrath. But His judgment is just as is His mercy.
@rebekahgriffin567 I definitely agree with you, Rebekah. Every prophet of this dispensation (except Joseph) has taught that principle. When I asked the question my tongue was firmly in my cheek LOL.
How does you view of retaining priesthood in spite of false teaching square with section 124 and its threat of rejection as a church at the loss of Joseph and Hyrum?
So, regarding authority, and the example of Alma, and what it says in Doc and cov 121: would it follow then that the other “branches” of the restoration (who were founded by people who can also trace their authority back through Joseph Smith) are potentially still operating with true authority as well? I know I see many good fruits of the Spirit happening in those churches, and I believe and hope we will all be grafted back to our mother tree, as Jacob 5 says.. I guess I don’t have any good reason to believe that God doesn’t also honor their priesthood authority.
They HAVE changed the ordinances.. I used to have to covenant to obey my husband and now that is gone. I make the covenant to obey directly with God now.
That’s the problem with connors ideas. How can we just sit back and allow the leaders to make their mistakes without acknowledging that those mistakes are affecting the very things that grant access to exaltation? It’s silly, really.
To think that Jesus would sustain or use BY and others to lead people (to be unrighteous and live opposite to his teachings) would be completely contrary to his teachings in the Gospels and how he taught about not falling for false prophets. Jesus was all about not wanting people to be deceived by people or prophets who claimed to have authority or follow him, but don't.
No other church has the Book of Mormon, Temple Endowment or was restored by Joseph Smith. That’s what I hang my testimony on. Living the teachings of the Gospel as taught in our Church brings peace and joy and a path to follow Christ. I think the culture of prophet worship and thinking they are infallible is a big part of the problem.
The temple endowment we have today is made up from Brigham not recieved from God through Joseph. Joseph taught we could only recieve an endowment from on high once the Navoo temple was complete and Joseph died before it was completed. It never actually was fully finished anyhow.
This is simply not true. There are other churches that have the Book of Mormon and which descend from Joseph’s restored church every bit as much as the brighamite church. As for the endowment, what the brighamite church has is what remains in an evolved state from what Brigham introduced as what he claimed Joseph revealed to him in partiality with alleged instructions to “figure out the rest.”
I think there's a clear difference between a leader sinning vs a prophet teaching false doctrine. David commiting adultery and murder or Peter refusing to eat with gentiles is different from Peter or Paul or Isaiah, etc teaching false doctrine. It seems to me that the whole point of having a prophet and a church with teaching authority (as opposed to just going by the scriptures alone or by personal religious experience alone) is that they maintain sound doctrine. Its supposed to avoid the errors of other churches that constantly adopt the views of the world and incorporate them into their beliefs. If a prophet can teach false doctrine and another prophet can contradict an older prophet on doctrine, then that seems to defeat the whole point of having modern-day prophets.
As much as I appreciate Connor's efforts here, a lot of this sounds like an attempt to validate the church no matter what it does. So, Jesus is fine with leaders leading people astray because maybe things can be corrected later. Yeah, sorry, but no thanks.
It's not about the righteousness of the one performing the ordinance, it's that the ordinance was changed (made up) by BY in St George just before his death. The only valid ordinance we have is the baptismal ordinance because it's found in the BofM. Even the sacrament was changed from wine to water. We only have a shell of a church that Joseph restored.
@@reppi8742 what do we know of the Native Americans who were left at the end of the BOM? They were wicked and had destroyed all the righteous. Why would they have true ordinances from God to pass down?
Joseph translated Abraham chapter one so READ his statement that he made on April 7, 1836 that Dr. Reeves and other ignorant fools never mention: "The curse is not yet taken off the sons of Canaan, neither will it be until it is affected by as great a power as caused it to come."!!! Continued...
It would be interesting to analyze at what point does God say, no more, this is not my people or my church. What was it that caused the Lord to finally reject the Jews or the need to restart reform restore the Christian experiment? Being part of the church is not the same as being part of the ChurchTM. It may be perfectly okay with the Lord to separate from the Church TM as long as we don't separate from the larger more important definition.
Yes. D&C 10. The “church” is a spiritual thing. It is all those who repent and come unto Christ. You can’t point to a building or institution and say “there it is”
I wonder that too. I'm trying to go by what the spirit teaches me to do. I just want truth, not trusting in our Father's traditions or culture which is becoming more and more evil!
You're in the church because you are famous and your Stake president doesn't dare to excommunicate you. Not everyone has that luxury. Like you said, leader roulette is a real thing. 😢
I think Brigham's repentance may have started even in his lifetime. You see this in how his language changes a bit in respect to teaching some things like Adam-God. In the beginning he is much more sure, but later records he uses the "I reckon" wording a lot more. I think he was still wrong about a lot when he died, but maybe there is some evidence that he was starting to change. Thanks for your perspective.
Perhaps he was starting to change some of his opinions (though I don't think so), but he was still committing adultery frequently, and encouraging others to do the same. He was also committing genocide on native American tribes in the area, and calling for the murders of many Americans. His life was full of lies, and those were hardly going away when he was murdered by John Taylor. Oops...I just opened a new can of worms with that last part, didn't I?
Being a man and sinning is quite different than teaching and implementing false doctrine. Certainly we have no use for false prophets who teach false doctrine! Why would God allow his chosen method to reveal his truth be undermined by falsehood that undermines trust?
Thank God for Joseph, Hyrum and their families. It’s the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Not the Church of Jesus Christ of General Authorities. The faithful Saints, with the disseminated priesthood, have always kept the Gospel from being taken from the Earth and always will.
I mean Peter got mad at Paul for a bunch of stuff he wrote, so there's that. Basically created a lot of the Evangelical core beliefs that exclude things like baptism. Mortals make mistakes.
Oooof! This was a hard listen. I didn’t like any of your points. I too see the problems with Brigham, and am still a member, but I’d recommend a study of authority using only scripture and see where it really comes from. Those baptisms at the water of Mormon were authorized through the spirit, not a dormant priesthood, as if that’s a thing. Take a look at the de-evolution of the definition of keys from the early church. Take a look at what has been added to and taken from the original doctrine on heavenly reward. All the best.
I'd be curious to have anyone's feedback on the following: 1. The story of Emma hating Section 132 when Hyrum showed it to her (burning the copy of it in the fireplace) 2. The justification of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, and others in taking more than one wife. The caveat given by B.O.M. Jacob wrt the practice of plural marriage. 3. The implied practice of plural marriage by Jared and the Brother of Jared (look at the number of children). 4. The current practice of polygamy in African, Middle Eastern and Eastern Cultures. And how to minister to them currently in the ordinances of the Gospel. 5. RMN's statement that in the coming days we would be given "Abrahamic Tests." 6. The apparent felicity of Joseph F Smith's family. 7. The statements of Eliza R Snow and other Pioneer Women regarding plural/celestial marriage. I find it hard to believe that she was a gullible, hoodwinked acolyte of Brother Brigham.
and emma kicked eliza out of their home she had been living with them as a boarder when she found and eliza and jospeh got sealed and wasnt friends with her anymore....i dont think eliza could have kids cause she was married to joseph and brigham and never had kids and i dont beleive she nevee slept with either...so joseph not having other kids doesnt bother me...more dna tests could prove more kids or like he and emma maybe didnt make it past infancy and early childhood like several of their kids did
Christ was saying that the scibes and pharisees have the scriptures; therefore, keep peace with them and follow the internal and external word of God...regarding Matthew 23 (KJV).
I think the agency discussion is the best explanation for many policy changes. Especially the blacks and the priesthood issue. Was it right? In my opinion no. But as a point of order, it was the agency of the leaders that made that policy "binding." God was able to fix it because he is leading His Church.
Lehi left thr Church in Jerusalem to get away from the abominations there... for they were practicing polygamy and wanted to kill him for soeaking agsinst them.
Lehi never said any of that. He said he left due to a dream. All people there were wicked, which was a view shared by many of his contemporaries like Jeremiah. Jerusalem was destroyed. That why LEHI said he left. Not good to make things up to support your view. What you said is not given as why Lehi left.
Is there a reason you won't let me comment on your videos Connor? I love your content and want to add my voice, but your channel won't let me comment on your page. Is there a reason for this?
Only halfway through the video and your points are all disproven (if we take the first vision to be true.) By the first vision itself. God's intervention into religion would prove that not only can authority be lost by unworthiness, but that teaching false doctrine is a huge issue to God, one that He Himself would come to intervene. If the prophets do teach false doctrine, then the church is false, even by LDS doctrine.
I agree that a true church with righteous leaders would not teach false doctrine. Jesus was very clear to not follow or trust in false prophets or leaders like BY who claim to follow him but live opposite to his teachings, who then lead people astray with them.
One reason that there are so many ignorant ones in the church today is that the adult class is like a primary class when I joined, and also there is no investigators class! You should READ Willing am Clayton's (Joseph's scribe) journals! There is no doubt that he taught and practiced polygamy! Also, look at videos by Brian Hales who knows more and has more evidence of this than anyone! Heck, even read the church's own essay about it!!! Continued.
I believe that the true church needs to have both the priesthood and all of the ordinances that were in the church soon after Christ was resurrected. One of those ordinances (mentioned in 1 Corinthiana 15:3-29) was baptism for the dead. Assuming the Book of Mormon is true, which I do believe, that narrows down the options for the Lord's church significantly.
So true to me.. I think the Church has many of the only true doctrines taught in Christianity! But I believe we as a people are riding on the coattails of Joseph, Hyrum, Emma, Lucy and a few others who stayed behind or died. Let us true saints( I hope I'm one) support only true doctrine( not traditions )and what Joseph actually said and this those words ofJesus Christ?
@microgardenmom Except that Paul's reference to baptism for the dead was not a directive to baptize for the dead, but he was just bringing it up as an example of the inconsistency of the Corinthians' beliefs that there was no resurrection, while also performing baptisms for the dead. Also, Mormon taught against the idea in his epistle to Moroni, in Moroni 8: 22-24: "All little children are alive in Christ, *and also all they that are without the law.* For *the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law;* wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and *unto such baptism availeth nothing-* "But it is mockery before God, *denying the mercies of Christ,* and the power of his Holy Spirit, and *putting trust in dead works.* "Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law." As the Lord Himself said in Doctrine and Covenants 10: 67: "Whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church." And He continued in the next verse: "Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church." That makes it pretty clear to me about what the Lord's true church is.
There is some truth about the blood atonement doctrine that was done in the days of Moses, but if you are so ignorant that you can't see the other things I have stated here, then it would be useless for me to understand something more complicated! Also, you need to READ 2 Samuel what it states clearly by the Lord that He gave David his wives!!! God does not change! You are correct about the Adam/God theory which is confusing many scholars since he did teach the true doctrine also that Adam and Eve were Fathered by God, see Mormon Doctrine under "Son if God." You really should try to study and learn a lot more before you mislead many others!!!
You are so ignorant! I have studied theology and Mormon doctrine for more than 60 years and I am well aware that Joseph and others ordained blacks until as late as 1935, but these were inspired exceptions Just as Christ made an exception for the Canaanite woman after initially REFUSING her as recorded in Matthew chapter 15! Continued...
Jacob & Zenos both show how the Lifeblood of Christ's Church prevails over temporary corruptions: The following verses of Jacob 5 (65-75) accurately describe how the bitter & corrupt branches & fruit of polygamy arose & then was plucked out of the Lord's church in these latter days, while preserving the NATURAL BRANCHES (those essential keys, covenants, ordinances, & blessings), which are then grafted unto the NATURAL TREE (monogamy}: [Note: I place [brackets] around any words I add to these verses] Some Proposed Definitions of Words used in these verses "NATURAL" = That which the Lord originally plants and ordains (contrasted in the parable words like "Bitter," "Wild," "Bad," and "Evil," which oppose the Lord) "FRUIT" = The Lives of the Disciples or Members of the Lord's Church TREE: Dispensation of the Gospel BRANCHES: That which Jacob 5:65-69: * The Lord of the vineyard cautions his servants to "clear away the branches [polygamy] which bring forth BITTER FRUIT," while being careful to "not clear away the BAD thereof all at once, lest [they completely] lose the trees [of life] of my vineyard * .... wherefore ye shall clear away the bad [polygamy] according AS the GOOD shall GROW.... until the good [keys, etc., plus monogamy] shall OVERCOME the bad... * .... And thus will I sweep away the BAD OUT OF MY VINEYARD, & the branches of the natural tree [priesthood keys, covenants, ordinances, temple blessings, etc.] will I graft in again unto the natural tree [monogamy] .... * .... & thus will I bring them [keys, etc. plus monogamy] TOGETHER AGAIN, that they shall bring forth the NATURAL FRUIT, & they [natural trees, branches, and fruit] shall be one .... & the bad [polygamy] shall be cast away, yea, even out of all the land of my vineyard.... (Jacob 5:65-69) Jacob 5:73-75: * "And there began to be the NATURAL FRUIT [Disciples, from the Natural TREE of monogamy, nurtured by the natural BRANCHES] again in the vineyard; & the NATURAL BRANCHES began to grow & thrive exceedingly; & the WILD branches [polygamy] began to be plucked off & to be cast away; and they did keep the ROOT & the TOP thereof [perhaps the Faith in Christ as the "ROOT" & the Lord's place at the head of His church as "the TOP"] * .... And thus they labored .... even until the BAD [polygamy] had been cast away out of the vineyard, and the Lord had PRESERVED unto himself that the trees had become again the natural fruit [of the NATURAL roots, tree, and branches]; and they became like unto one body; and the FRUITS were EQUAL [perhaps in the way men and women in the Lord's church should always be seen as equally valued in the eyes of their Heavenly Father--which polygamy corrupts?]; & the Lord of the vineyard had PRESERVED unto himself the NATRUAL FRUIT [that was nurtured from the natural ROOTS (of the atonement), natural BRANCHES (of keys, covenants, ordinances), and natural TREES (of monogamy)], which was most precious unto him from the beginning .... * .... And ... the Lord of the vineyard saw that his fruit was good, and that his vineyard was no more corrupt .... and the bad is cast away [and he said to his servants:] .... behold ye shall have joy with me because of the fruit of my vineyard." (Jacob 5:73-75) Bottom line: * We can recognize that polygamy was indeed "bad" and a blight (temporary "wild branches") upon the Lord's restored church--that had to eventually be "plucked out" to preserve the olive tree and allow the good fruit to be nourished and flourish, * That Joseph Smith indeed condemned and shunned the abomination and practice of polygamy--which was, as he and the scriptures always clearly and unequivocally exclaimed, a corruption and an abomination (or blight) that especially undervalued, and often subjected, pierced, and shot daggers into the tender hearts of the Lord's daughters, * But that, despite that corruption, the still-preserved and living roots (atonement of Savior) & "natural branches" of the olive tree (such as priesthood keys, covenants, ordinances, & temple blessings) remain an integral part of the Lord's living church today . . . with the Savior Himself at the head (TOP) of that church . . .
I understand the limits of you analogy but, there is always breach of contract. You have errored on the side of staying in the boat but when should we panic? Mountain Meadows is an example of the harm by following men because of their mantle. No matter what people will follow them after receiving their own witness from God ie. the jab and many other examples. What would be an issue that would cause you to question the brethren and their claim to revelation?
What's the alternative? The Book of Mormon testifies of Jesus Christ. That is the rock I build my testimony on. What people do is immaterial to my belief.
@@tinkeringengr To follow the simple and few teachings of Jesus on your own, as he seems to have wanted. But it seems after he was gone people added to his teachings and made him out to be super human to create a religion around him. While Jesus seemed to be against formal religion for they are always quickly led astray by imperfect leaders and false doctrines.
@Posi2300 That's not true. Jesus Christ does sponsor organized religion, when built upon his rock, and gives men the authority to administer ordinances. Go read 3 Nephi and tell me Christ wasn't instituting organized religion among the people of the Americas. Read in the gospels what Christ was authorizing and teaching his apostles to do in organizing and administering ordinances to his faithful followers. Read the word of Isaiah, words which Christ highly endorsed, about the establishment of Zion and the enlarging of the tent covering and her cords and strong stakes. Christ, who instituted the sacrament and charged his apostles to administer it often, clearly sponsored organized religion.
Great musings, Brother Connor-as usual. We LDS face the MOST CRITICAL DECISION JUNCTION since the death of the Lord’s founding prophet, Joseph Smith. Why? Because BOTH items below are clearly true: TRUTH # 1 Joseph Smith ALWAYS condemned and NEVER preached or practiced ANY form of polygamy by any name (celestial or plural marriage or spiritual wifery, etc.) and was ALWAYS faithful to his ONE wife, Emma. TRUTH # 2 THEREFORE, though tough to hear--Brigham Young introduced the abominations of polygamy (Jacob 2-3) into the church, while FALSELY PINNING that decision upon Joseph Smith. So what’s next for LDS members? We must also accept: TRUTH # 3 That corruption introduced through polygamy DID NOT destroy or cancel these LIFEBLOOD elements of the Lord's true and living restored church, which REMAIN with us TODAY: * the PRIESTHOOD KEYS * the continuing presence & efficacy of COVENANTS (including Abrahamic, Sacramental, Temple, & Book of Mormon (see DC 84) * the continued efficacy of TEMPLE WORK and ORDINANCES, which build upon those KEYS and COVENANTS, and which continue to make possible the work of salvation on BOTH SIDES of the veil. * the Savior's atoning sacrifice--as the life-giving ROOT of His restored church today * the Savior Himself--as the HEAD of his living and restored church today (BTW: I think the Lord gave us the Parable of the Olive Trees (especially Jacob 5:62-75), planted throughout the Lord's Vineyard to: 1) Warn us how the polygamy Jacob condemned in his day would arrive in OUR DAY and 2) Show us how the Lord would preserve the good and "NATURAL BRANCHES" of the Olive Tree (the LIFEBLOOD found in KEYS, COVENANTS, and TEMPLE ORDINANCES) even after the CORRUTPION from the WILD and BAD branches that infested the VINEYARD during polygamy . . . More on that parable's message to us today--as I REPLY to myself below) In the meantime, this bit of advice seems relevant: * DON'T FEAR the TRUTH * CELEBRATE the FACT that the Lord's Founding Prophet, Joseph, always spoke the truth when he said he never practiced polygamy and was always faithful to his one wife, Emma (C'mon--doesn't that just make you take a big breath of relief and shout: "Halleluiah Joseph!") * TRUST that the Lord preserved the foundations of his church (the keys, covenants and ordinances) --even if Brigham Young temporarily introduced polygamy and its inevitable corruptions into the Lord's vineyard
[Continued from above . . .] Jacob & Zenos both show how the Lifeblood of Christ's Church prevails over temporary corruptions: The following verses of Jacob 5 (65-75) accurately describe how the bitter & corrupt branches & fruit of polygamy arose & then was plucked out of the Lord's church in these latter days, while preserving the NATURAL BRANCHES (those essential keys, covenants, ordinances, & blessings), which are then grafted unto the NATURAL TREE (monogamy}: [Note: I place [brackets] around any words I add to these verses] Some potential definitions: "NATURAL" = That which was originally planted and ordained by the Lord (versus "Wild," "Bitter," "Bad," or "Evil," which oppose the Lord) "TREE" = The vehicle for gathering and blessing the Lord's children through the Gospel "FRUIT" = The lives of the members or disciples "ROOT" = Faith in Christ "TOP" = Christ as the Head of the Tree Jacob 5:65-69: * The Lord of the vineyard cautions his servants to "clear away the branches [polygamy] which bring forth BITTER FRUIT," while being careful to "not clear away the BAD thereof all at once, lest [they completely] lose the trees [of life] of my vineyard * .... wherefore ye shall clear away the bad according AS the GOOD shall GROW.... until the good [keys, etc., plus monogamy] shall OVERCOME the bad... * .... And thus will I sweep away the BAD OUT OF MY VINEYARD, & the branches of the natural tree [priesthood keys, covenants, ordinances, temple blessings, etc.] will I graft in again unto the natural tree [monogamy] .... * .... & thus will I bring them [keys, etc. plus monogamy] TOGETHER AGAIN, that they shall bring forth the NATURAL FRUIT, & they [natural trees, branches, and fruit] shall be one .... & the bad [polygamy] shall be cast away, yea, even out of all the land of my vineyard.... (Jacob 5:65-69) Jacob 5:73-75: * "And there began to be the NATURAL FRUIT again in the vineyard; & the NATURAL BRANCHES began to grow & thrive exceedingly; & the WILD branches [polygamy] began to be plucked off & to be cast away; and they did keep the ROOT & the TOP thereof [perhaps the atoning sacrifice of the Lord as the "ROOT" & the Lord's place at the head of His church as "the TOP"] * .... And thus they labored .... even until the BAD [polygamy] had been cast away out of the vineyard, and the Lord had PRESERVED unto himself that the trees had become again the natural fruit [of the NATURAL roots, tree, and branches]; and they became like unto one body; and the FRUITS were EQUAL [perhaps in the way men and women in the Lord's church should always be seen as equally valued in the eyes of their Heavenly Father--which polygamy corrupts?]; & the Lord of the vineyard had PRESERVED unto himself the NATRUAL FRUIT [that was nurtured from the natural ROOTS (of the atonement), natural BRANCHES (of keys, covenants, ordinances), and natural TREES (of monogamy)], which was most precious unto him from the beginning .... * .... And ... the Lord of the vineyard saw that his fruit was good, and that his vineyard was no more corrupt .... and the bad is cast away [and he said to his servants:] .... behold ye shall have joy with me because of the fruit of my vineyard." (Jacob 5:73-75) Bottom line: * We can recognize that polygamy was indeed "bad" and a blight (temporary "wild branches") upon the Lord's restored church--that had to eventually be "plucked out" to preserve the olive tree and allow the good fruit to be nourished and flourish, * That Joseph Smith indeed condemned and shunned the abomination and practice of polygamy--which was, as he and the scriptures always clearly and unequivocally exclaimed, a corruption and an abomination (or blight) that especially undervalued, and often subjected, pierced, and shot daggers into the tender hearts of the Lord's daughters, * But that, despite that corruption, the still-preserved and living roots (atonement of Savior) & "natural branches" of the olive tree (such as priesthood keys, covenants, ordinances, & temple blessings) remain an integral part of the Lord's living church today . . . with the Savior Himself at the head (TOP) of that church . . .
It’s not ok to find issue with the leaders. That is what got me removed from the Church. Support them or leave. Definitions of Prophets, Seers and Revelators are loose and creative and interpreted by local “leaders”.
It's one thing to calmly discuss disagreements you have with leaders. It's another thing when you have hostility in your heart. The world doesn't like to judge people by things like "hostility" or "contention" because they are subjective matters of the heart, but the church is supposed to work by the spirit, and the sacrifice we are supposed to offer in our weekly sacraments is a broken heart and a contrite spirit.
Thanks for the insights. Two interesting scriptures that I think deal with the murder of Joseph and Hyrum. JST Luke 3 8 Until the fullness of time, and the law and the testimony shall be sealed, and the keys of the kingdom shall be delivered up again unto the Father; 9 To administer justice unto all; to come down in judgment upon all, and to convince all the ungodly of their ungodly deeds, which they have committed; and all this in the day that he shall come; DC 133 71 Behold, and lo, there are none to deliver you; for ye obeyed not my voice when I called to you out of the heavens; ye believed not my servants, and when they were sent unto you ye received them not. 72 Wherefore, they sealed up the testimony and bound up the law, and ye were delivered over unto darkness.
Good points but there were times when they had to leave. Lehi had to leave the organization. Alma who you mention had to leave. I do like your points that staying may be the best for some. Others have to go or be forced to go. The gospel has not been restored. Joseph barely got the Book of Mormon out which was his only responsibility. He also tried to set up a church. He did his best and I do believe God gave him some light along the way. Yet by Kirkland it was over. The saints and leaders would not have him any more. It took a while to get rid of him and his brothers. The traditions of men were too strong. Joseph gave us two Gods, one spirit and one Son who took on flesh. No God the Holy Spirit at all. That was canon in our D&C 1835 Yet Brigham gave us sect 130 with 3 Gods and the Father a body. Those are big deals. Which was true, the doctrine of the Lectures on Faith or sect 130 after Joseph was gone. There is so much falsehood mixed with truth. But going alone into the wilderness is not easy for anyone. So doing as you say and praying for divine intervention may work too.
I would love to hear about some of the amazingly good things that came from Brigham Young. He was an inspired pioneer and leader. He was the man called for the time. Would you consider a musing about the great things leaders have done despite their imperfections?
It would be great to know if there were any. Seems like an overwhelming amount of bad the more you look into it. I don't think its a stretch to suggest he is a false prophet. If he doctored the historical record to initiate polygamy, I don't think it gets darker than that. Leading a generation into whoredoms is abominable.
Good fruit cannot come from an evil tree. Brigham was far more than “imperfect.” If there was anything good he did, he did it to manipulate for his own gain like a true narcissist.
One last thought... When Brigham said back in the 19th century that blacks could not have the Priesthood, could it be that even though he was in error physically that there are "spiritual Canaanites or Gentiles" ? Of course, we know there is both physical and spiritual darkness. When Brigham said polygamy is the order of heaven, few take into account that the order of heaven is also the order of the eternities. What about his Rome comment ? We know ancient Rome persecuted Christians before the birth of Roman Catholism. My point is that even though Brigham was in error, from another angle he was speaking the truth. As Paul said..."to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." My issue with ANY Mormon is not necessarily moral or ethical issues. My issue is that the following can not be found anywhere... D&C 84 (lds) 33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies. D&C 45 (lds) 67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion.
As Ive said in the past You can't have it both ways you can't have the church today is true but all the prophet's and leadership of the church who practiced polygamy are bad. The whole tree would die without the roots. Connor I think you might feel strongly you're doing something noble, but its going to cause members with weak testimonies to leave or question the church, that'll be on your head. By you're logic the catholic church could be true because it was founded by Peter. That not true at all.
I guess it is time for me tell more of my history. I was born again in 1973. The Lord immediately started the trials of sanctification in earnest. For the next two years, I was tried in the law of obedience, having all manner of temptations being throw at me. One of the hardest temptations I had to overcome was lust. When I finished that test, the Lord gave me a sacrifice. When the Lord gave me the sacrifice, he showed me everything that would happen in my life as a result of the sacrifice. I saw that I would be excommunicated, and lose my family, friends and I would be a drifter and vagabond. Seeing the vision I told the Lord, no to the sacrifice, that he had the wrong guy. I was, in those days, an out of sight, out of mind, stay in line and do as your told person. The Lord said, OK, and left me to myself for six months. From the time I was born again until I told the Lord, no, the Lord was conversing with me daily and for six months there nothing. After six months, I was really missing the Lord's presence with me. I asked the Lord, why he was not talking to me. He reminded me of our last conversation and told me that when I said, No, he would just let me think about it and he asked me how I was feeling then. I told the Lord, "I cannot live without you. My relationship with you and your love is more important to me than anything else in my life. What do you want me to do?" The Lord told me to try and start a conversation with Pres. Kimball concerning laws, covenants commandments and ordinances and the future of the church. I thought, "This will surely get me excommunicated." But it did not matter. I loved the Lord and no sacrifice was too great. I was just glad the Lord did not ask me to kill one of my kids. So, for the next four years, I was trying to establish communication with the Leaders of the church, but instead of praying and asking God's revelation, they, to my face, told me they would not pray and seek revelation on the subjects I presented to them. President Kimball was silent through the whole test and I never got to meet him. At one point, I said to the Lord, "The leaders you have in charge of your church are totally incompetent. What do I need them for? Why don't we just start a new church?" And Jesus told me it was not time for that. I still had trials to go through and I still needed the temple. He told me I could not just leave on my own, I would have to wait for them to kick me out. That trial ended when they told me to stop pestering them and to stop praying about the things I wanted to talk to them about or I would be excommunicated. I actually had to write letter saying I would stop. I ask the Lord about writing the Letter and he told me the test was over and to not worry about it, so I wrote the letter. At the same time I was going through my test of sacrifice, I was tested in the laws of the gospel and Chastity. The hardest of those tests was loving and forgiving the Leaders of the church. The final test of sanctification was consecration, which involved poverty. In 1980, I had gotten into the money business, selling life insurance and securities. That went broke in 1982 when the investment company I was working with declared bankruptcy. If you want details, let me know. Anyway, I was out of work and out of money with no Job prospects getting church welfare and when I prayed about it, the Lord showed me a vision. In the vision, I saw two doors. I looked out the door on the left and saw the wealth of the world and seats of power and I understood that if I chose to go through that door, all of that would be mine, but the end of that kingdom was terrestrial. I did not want that. I looked through the door on the right and there was mist, a fog, but there was a light beyond mist. and I understood that the celestial kingdom was on the other side. I made the choice to leave the path to the terrestrial kingdom and trust the Lord and I stepped into the mist. The Lord gave me a mission to serve in the temple everyday, and to trust him for everything. That test ended in November 1983 when the Lord visited me in the temple and made my calling and election sure and promised me the Celestial kingdom and took me into his presence. By 1991, I had riled up the Leaders of the church to such an extent that the stake president warned me if I did not abandon my alleged relationship with Jesus and get back in line behind the Leaders of the church, I would be excommunicated. I could not then, nor can I now abandon my relationship with Jesus, and I got excommunicated for now denying my relationship with Jesus. Considering the history of the church since 1991, and especially with that covid fiasco, I am do glad they kicked me out when they did. The idea of having to justify their wickedness to remain a member of the church is an appalling thought. I feel sorry for you that you have to make excuses for them. But not to worry, it will be over soon for those corrupt men. Just like the wicked Jewish leadership who were leading the Jews astray were destroyed, God will clean his own house. In April, during conference, the Lord is going to destroy all those wicked men. The leadership of the church has been in the hands of the Jesuits since 1952 and Jesus wants his church back. I have a mission to go to SLC before April conference to warn the church to repent or be destroyed. Do you want to go with me?
Thank you so much for your testimony. I'm going through the beginning stages now. I just rented the line of my father/ mother in the Oriental life and they live of Jesus Christ teaching me through the pre mortal life. They is no other L LOVE like that!!!! I only want that forever! I cherish what I know that Joseph truly taught but I think the SERVANT of Isaiah is coming soon too!
If you corrupted the ordinance or walked around and denied those with dark skin the opportunity for the sacrament surely the Bishop/God would correct you.
I stay active in the church knowing that many members and ancient teachings are wrong, but the overwhelming majority are right and true. Likewise, I stay in the U.S. even though I know many Americans support a very old, senile, fascist convicted felon-Trump, as their leader, no matter how incredibly disturbing and awful it is. My mission president taught us, in zone conference, that Heavenly Father had physical sex with his daughter, Mary, which was a Brigham Young teaching, and knew it was disgusting and wrong. My mission president also taught many great, true things.
Why do you have this obsession with trump? No matter what the video topic is, you bring him up. Doesn’t it get exhausting talking about how much you dislike the guy? Let me clarify this. I am no Trump supporter, and I have had many conversations telling members of my own family that they have an unhealthy view almost idolatry towards him. You seem to be on the opposite end of the spectrum: so obsessed with how “evil” he is that you have to bring him into every single conversation
so you are voting for a 60 year old whore who has no bio kids because she loves abortion and communism and like the whore she is will do anything for money?.... repent she is sick and hates the promised lamd and will destroy you and your future even if u support her
All Lucifer's lies are based on truisms. Adam is implicitly called, "The Son of God." Every child of God is a God. (This is its own philosophical treatise to explore). Properly, Adam was a Father God incarnate but in semantic terminology. For instance, Abraham is Father Abraham. As a Son of God (a God), he was the Father of Jesus according to the flesh...thus a Father God in flesh. Terminlogy is tricky and can mean different things depending on context. Technically, though, Adam was Son of Gods (Elohiym). Yaweh is the Oneness of the Gods. There is a Father Yaweh, Son Yaweh and Holy Spirit Yaweh: the Name [singular] of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. "Of" is Genetive Tense meaning "belonging to". Yaweh is a Family Name. Anyhow, hope this provides some refreshing perspectives to ponder.
While I am not fully on board about denying Joseph's polygamy, I still greatly appreciate this video! To me the principle rings true. "Except in the case of His only perfect Begotten Son, imperfect people are all God has ever had to work with." This includes our leaders. Just look to the scriptures... Peter, Jonah, Moses, Abraham, Lehi, etc., etc., etc were all deeply flawed, imperfect individuals and yet God raised them up to be prophets and worked incredible things through them. Modern leaders are no different; they make mistakes... and that's okay; this is still God's church and work!
I think the prophets have strengths that the Lord uses while they are in their calling as Prophet. I agree that prophets are men and can make mistakes. I also think that sometimes commandments can be given temporarily. Using logic is good. I think the Spirit and logic generslly work together.
You almost hit the nail on the head, just kind of bent the nail over. The answer is "keys". The Great Apostasy consisted of the keys being taken from the earth, most likely by the keys not being passed on to succeeding generations. There is a difference between "having priesthood authority" and "holding the keys of the priesthood" (you must hold priesthood authority in order to hold keys). You actually gave the "best" answer in your penultimate reason, but confused it a bit by using the term "agency" to describe both the moral agency of those who hold the keys, and the same term "agency" to describe their holding the keys of the priesthood. So your last two reasons were really the same thing - when God confers the keys of the priesthood to mortal agents, he respects the fact that they hold the keys! He is not like the person who delegates something to someone and then proceeds to ignore the delegation of authority in order to make sure that things are done the way they want them done. After the death of Joseph Smith, the Quorum of the Twelve, who were joint holders of the keys of the priesthood, conferred the keys on Brigham Young. Not on James Strang, not on Samuel Smith, not on Sidney RIgdon. I'm reminded of the account by Stephen R. Covey of the time he delegated the care of their lawn to one of his children (I'm certain to mess up the story). The lawn got to looking quite awful due to neglect, but Dr. Covey respected the delegation of authority and did not go out and water, cut, or fertilize the lawn, but instead worked with his son in a constructive way to get him to recognize that he wasn't doing a great job and to up his game. I suppose God deals with us in much the same way. At least that's the way I see it. 🙂
Jesus later did say to not fix the church withing he stsrted all over with joseph smith right so interesting that sometimes he says go to the prests...aka fix from within....but other times has flat outbscraped the whole thing and started over. Hard to know what he wants now. We have prophets who teach a lot of good and give good talks but there is also a lot of weirdness going on and i wonder fhe value of staying here and wonder if god will scrap this one too
Thank you for these 2 musings. I recently went through these same thoughts and came to the same conclusions although I did have a brief period where I was more critical and negative about the Church. I didn't like the feeling I had during that brief period, I could feel the Spirit wasn't as strongly with me.
Connor just read the comments here is what you're teaching edifying and uplifting and inviting the spirit or is it bringing out anti Mormon comments. I believe this is causing more harm than good.
I've said it many times. If I did an LDS-related RUclips channel and I realized one day the majority of my viewers were critics of the prophets and the Church, and they were agreeing with me and my content more often than not, that would give me pause to reconsider some things. But not Boyack. The guy doesn't skip a beat.
Look through the comments on this video or other "musings." The majority are by those who have left the Church or are on their way out, and agreeing with or praising what is said. What does that tell you about Boyack and his content?
LOL! You still think that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy?? 🤣 Sorry, but at this point, with the mountains of evidence that Joseph never practiced it, and nothing but the word of a lying, corrupt church saying that he ever did, there's no other way to respond, but to laugh.
@@tinkeringengr some wives or concubines they took which God did not give them. For instance Solomon started marrying pagan worshipers which God clearly did not approve of. But in 2nd Samuel the prophet Nathan gave David wives under Gods direction so that was totally okay
@@Telavian when something which has been proven time and time again and someone just doesn’t believe it then they lose massive amounts of credibility. I also don’t think Brigham Young taught any false doctrines like Connor does
Firstly, I have to admire that you do not flinch or shy away from hard things. Thank you for having this and all your other conversations.
Repentance first requires acknowledgement. Thats my way of seeing these things. I haven't heard much acknowledgement or repentance from the leadership. In fact, they won't even use the word apologize
Agree 100%. No acceptability literally for anything ever. Claim prophets, seers and revelators that cannot ever astray but whether screw up or the older church leader totally blew it.. their answer is always, “Well we’re just men trying our best to listen to God”
Or better yet “We don’t know detailed things because we are ‘General Authorities”.
Exactly. When I remembered sins I'd committed over the years...I didn't till later because I was dissociative all my life until I healed, I repented and acknowledged my sin but I just see cover ups. What does that mean about sincere repentance? Maybe they are dissociative like I was. Maybe they are living 2 lives at the same time? I dunt know? I can't judge them. I dunt want to leave the church , I love the church. But I see this heavily esp in leadership.
Yeah, Oaks made that clear when he said "We don't apologize". No apology equals no repentance.
I agree but would offer some counterpoints. The church as a corporation (even though it may not legally be so), cannot admit wrongdoing or it would open itself up to lawsuits. Much of those lawsuits would be frivolous and waste the funds of the church (which I know they have in exceeding abundance) even though there might be legitimate lawsuits that could be brought.
I do think the leadership should make it clearer that there have been things done wrong in the past and we are trying to rectify them now. I remember during the celebration for the priesthood/temple ban being "lifted" that Pres Oaks said he prayed about this many times and wanted to understand it and never felt like he understood why. I don't know if he actually knows this and didn't want to say it but maybe the reason he doesn't understand why it was in place is b/c it was never right to begin with!
Doesn't this all boil down to the Gospel vs. the Church? Plenty of branches-from Joseph Smith’s to the Catholic Church-can trace authority back to Christ, but what really sustains true authority? While church structure helps with unity, it's not perfect at preserving doctrine. Maybe Jesus wanted us to focus on his Gospel personally, not just through an organization. Living the Gospel might mean finding communities that actually live out service, truth, and compassion like Christ taught, while staying grounded in solid doctrine. For LDS members aware of past missteps, this view allows full commitment to Christ’s teachings within an imperfect Church. Ultimately, real worship and growth come from following Gospel values, not relying solely on the institution.
At best organized religion is the precepts of men mingled with scripture, at worst it's the precepts of men mingled with scripture “whose founder is the devil” (1M14.9). Both cause man to stumble and to err.
Pure religion is man embracing the great commandments. The first is loving God. "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. ‘Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father’ (James 1.27) is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." - Joseph Smith
So if the church leaders can go against God, do basically anything they want that is wrong, there is no way they would be considered to be in apostasy? This goes against everything I taught while a missionary.
God is not the author of confusion.
So true.
He is the father of a lot of authors though. And boy do they talk way more.
Not to be contentious but please explain the confusion of the original 12 Apostles as well as their disagreements after Christ was risen.
I thinks it’s right to say that he is not a God who will suffer confusion for long while he has his priesthood on the earth, but that’s a relative concept. God is also long suffering. So how long would he allow an error to continue to let people have a chance to correct it before he needs to intervene?
It’s also a little inconsiderate to say that in our position here on earth after the restoration has occurred. Many many people were left in confusion before and after Christ and the great apostasy. I think the amount of things we are saying are “confusing” is response to this video are minimal and trite compared to things people used to believe and/or lacked until this dispensation.
God did put a veil over our minds and sent us here to a world where there is a lot of confusion from many sources
It's not confusion. We are in the wilderness and in the mists, "seeing through a glass darkly". It promotes agency, seeking God, and provides opposition in all things.
I'll keep this succinct, b/c there is a lot more to this. Our teachings on what His church has been distorted. The Church has become an idol. His church is not a government-registered organization, and "there are save two churches only" (1N14.10). Simply put, 'church' (Greek: ekklēsía (ek, "out from and to" and kaléō, "to call") means 'called out ones'.
His church is His body, it is they who are one in Christ. How do we become one with Christ? And "the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God," (1N14.12) The saints are those who are walk in the Spirit, who have gifts of the Spirit. (Read 1 Corinthians 12)
Even in Joseph's day His church already existed as we read in Section 10.50-55 (circa 1828). Compare that to Section 1.30. These passages are referring to the same thing. The only way to have a living church is to have saints who have received the Holy Ghost (again read 1 Corinthians 12).
The LDS Church is very full of pride to boast that Church Inc is the only true church. His shurch is not limited to a denomination. And members of our Church can also be members of the church of the devil. We need to remember, repent and continue in righteousness.
I love how you are approaching these topics - acknowledging the facts while providing sound logic and context for how to move forward... Love your summarizing the history of God consistently working through flawed people. As a local leader in the church, I am very aligned... It does lead to an interesting question for me - if the early apostles had the authority and ordinances from the Savior - could not some church's argue the same logic - yes, lots of corruption, but the authority has continued with that church for all the reasons you gave for the post Brigham Young church? At some point, the Lord has His limits in accommodating human weakness.... Keep up the GREAT work!!!
By this argument, wouldn't it make the Catholic Church the true church? If you take your argument to its logical conclusion, apostasy is impossible, because all that matters is an unbroken chain of authority, doctrine and ethics are irrelevant.
I would say that an important distinction is that the apostolic authority was not passed down. Just as Alma would not been able to regain his priesthood authority if he never got it, how could that institution continue if that authority was lost?
That and when an institution rejects general revelation, how can God accept that as His church when its adherents are would reject further light and knowledge?
Did Alma stay in King Noah’s church or did he leave? Did the followers of the way stay in the Jewish church or did they leave? Perhaps starting with the premise that the Lord needs a “vehicle” such as a corporation, rather than the vehicle of His word, or doctrine, is causing false conclusions. Remember that He defines His church as those that repent and come unto Him. It is people, not a telestial organization. Jesus told the Jews to follow the law of Moses, but not to follow the leaders, because it was not yet fulfilled. When it was, they no longer participated in the Jewish rituals and ordinances.
Alma received power and authority from God through his repentance and willingness to follow God’s commandments, just as we all can, not because of some imagined priesthood line of authority. Whether in a religious organization or not, power comes through our faith and relationship with God.
By your argument, why doesn’t every restoration branch have authority? Are you saying the Brighamite branch is the correct one, simply because it is the biggest? It is comforting to believe that ordinances are still valid regardless of righteousness, but that doesn’t make it true.
I agree! Great points!
Yes! Well said, Rebekah! 👏
This is important and interesting to consider. Yes there is for sure a pattern of leading out a remnant, and yet the group they remnant leaves still has significance and purpose. Take for example Lehi. He was led away from Jerusalem. A corrupt church was left behind. Inside that corrupt church there were still faithful members who served the Lord. Fastforward to Jesus' time and we find many who were needed to fulfill important roles like Mary and Joseph, Jesus, Elizabeth and Zechariah, John the baptizer, the disciples, Paul, etc. Some will be led out (for the Lord's purposes), some will be led to stay and serve where they all.
What about his points about Jesus and him telling people to go show the priests or people still worshipping in the temple? It’s so confusing, I really think we have to be in tune with the spirit and the Lord will lead us, maybe some feel inclined to stay for a reason yet others feel moved to go.
@@Hmcc0712that was Jesus telling them to keep the law of Moses, until it was fulfilled. After it was fulfilled, they no longer participated in the Jewish religion. My point is not to tell people to leave. It is to say that you don’t need to stay because of “priesthood authority”. Come unto Jesus with a broken heart and contrite spirit and ask Him what He wants you to do. He is the only keeper of the gate.
For me Alma clarifies if the church is necessary. “Behold I say unto you, do ye suppose that ye cannot worship God save it be in your synagogues only?”
Has nothing to do about the church not being nrcessary. Christ comes to the Americas and established his church without question. To imply or assume the church isn’t necessary since we can worship at anytime or any place is quite different. The church is the members of the body of Christ and it is through this organization the ordinances of salvation are manage through.
@ the church and its organization has existed only a drop in the bucket of history and among all people. Christ establishing a church among the Nephites doesn’t mean it is required for making it to heaven or to worshipping God. If it did most people would be excluded.
@ the church is the organization for all the saving ordinances and especially work for the dead. Why have a restoration of keys to Joseph who then was commanded to organize the church if it isn’t required? The point of the referenced scripture is about worship not if a church is necessary or not. We read into things that the text doesn’t actually support.
This is the advice from Isaiah:
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
We require the breath in the heart
Lehi didn’t deal with it and left his home, left his congregation and took his family with him. What’s your thoughts on us that see it and take our families into the wilderness to be taught from on high?
Amen! Great thought! Apostasy has been the cause of God's wrath throughout scripture. Its not a new concept. Revelations is written to all those churches in a state of apostasy within the lifetime of the Apostles who lived and worked with Him , saw his death, burial, and resurrection. I at one time thought it a thing of the past but as 2 Thessalonian 2 says, there will be a great falling away before the Man of Lawlessness appears. Heads up. I think he's here.
But who was the apostatizing from? That is the question.
Lehi was returning to the truth God had set forth.
God bless you.
Thank you for your words. I have had the same thoughts. I have looked around at other Churches. I still believe this is Christ Church and where He wants me to be.
Do you stay because you grew up in this church or because you are seeking truth?
If Brigham Young was leading the Church today, would you sustain him as Prophet. Seer, and Revalator? If so, why? If not, then where is the line?
*That* is an excellent question!
I wouldn’t be in a false Mormon church, so I’d be happy following the real Jesus (hint: Jesus is not of or in the Mormon church)
Fantastic question!
@@mikespage0123keep looking 😊
@@asarg1776 I found Jesus, have you? (hint: He’s not in the Mormon church) ❤️
So why if a man has his priesthood revoked for sin today he is not allowed to perform ordinances but if BY and others were wicked they could still use their priesthood and it is still valid??
True, if someone today lived and taught the falsehoods that BY did, they would be exed and could they then go start a new church and it be true because they were once given supposed authority? This is contrary to what Jesus taught, even if Joseph seemed to think authority stays with a person despite unrighteousness. Jesus taught that unrighteousness invalidates a person's authority or worthiness to lead.
maybe people who think BY is wicked have got it wrong.
I am reminded that Lucifer has the priesthood. Should we be obedient to him as many obviously are?
@@FreeThinker-n1t Satan would like you to think he has the priesthood.
@@FreeThinker-n1t Satan certainly flaunts his priesthood in the temple and tells us to put on an apron like his, and we follow him.
The JST of Matt 24 debunks your last point. It says “All, therefore, whatsoever they bid you observe, that they will make you observe and do; for they are ministers of the law, and they make themselves your judges. But do not ye after their works; for they say, and do not.”
There is still an assumption here that 1. the Lord needs an organization run by men to contain a certain authority and 2. that these men were actually called of God and didn't just put themselves there in power. Jeremiah 23 rubukes those who call themselves prophets and speak things in the name of God that he didn't tell them to say. Much of what Brigham taught goes against scripture. In my opinion the idea of continuing revelation becomes very problematic when there is a belief that a certain man speaks for God. What does one do when that new revelation goes against Scripture or previous instruction that was thought to be God's word? Now days they say in conference that the new stuff overwrites the old. We even had a high council talk last spring that said the current prophets words are more important than scripture. What??? It opens the door for leaders to say anything they want! God wants a relationship with each one of us. A true prophet should lead you to develop that relationship so you can get your instruction from God. And while i do think a community of true believers is a good thing, I don't think it has to be an organization. Men eventually corrupt every organization they get their hands on.
I think organized community is essential-what does it matter to have the commandments in isolation? Even with the major flaws within the LDS church organization, I think total dissolution would have far more severe consequences in the negative direction. Better to just recognize the potential for fallibility and double check anything a leader says with personal revelation.
Actually, what you just taught is against scripture. God has always had an organization of some sort, even in the early parts of the Bible.
The organization cannot be top-down through “authority”. The organization is supposed to be organic, from the bottom-up. The “church”, as defined in D&C 10, is all those who repent and come unto Christ. The church is not an institution, it is not a building, it is not a 501c3. The church is supposed to rise up from the hearts and minds of individuals - more of a spiritual entity - who are of one heart and of one mind. Just like a beehive
@@BrianTerrill What about the great apostasy then?
@steel6322 The Great Apostasy was just that, an apostasy. There were those who like Conner, Michelle Stone, Jeremy Hoop, and Denver Snufer who are seeking to influence the church away from God's chosen prophets and apostles he ordained to be the heads of this church. John the Apostle was the known leader of the church, but others took over. How did you not know about that?
" I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church." (3 John 1:9-10)
Yes Brigham did…I’ve never felt good about him, often feeling guilty for listening to his “dark” teachings. Brigham was a Fallen Man whom I believe never was a prophet!!!
You can't have it both ways you can't have the church today is true but all the prophet's and leadership of the church who practiced polygamy are bad. The whole tree would die without the roots.
@@wheels636Jesus Christ is the root. Brigham Young had his agency
@ED-wired actually it takes Jesus Christ's approval
and the priesthood authority.
Amen.
Problem is, you can’t get a recommend and partake of the ordinances in the temple without pledging allegiance to the leaders. If the leaders are corrupt (have even changed the ordinances), then those leaders can prevent you from exaltation if you don’t conform to their corruption. This doesn’t make any sense. I usually agree with your musings but the cognitive dissonance in this one is too much
💯! Abso-freakin-lutely!
I know that bothers me ! I think we should just acknowledge that Joseph was the prophet of this last despensation.
The temple recommend question is do I believe the church leaders hold the keys. That is, thankfully, a very narrow question that allows me to participate in saving ordinances without “following the prophet” when he’s otherwise leading us astray.
We don't pledge allegiance. We sustain as prophets, etc. I agree with Connor that a mortal man can be a prophet and still be fallible. Not everything out of their mouths is prophetic and revelatory. Most of the time they are experienced men who are sharing advice and counsel. Most of the time it is good, or at least harmless. My sustaining doesn't include complying with anything that is wrong, according to God and The Scriptures.
@@Robin-ge2qc It’s mostly good and harmless until the supreme sustained leader, the supposed “ONLY one” wih the keys, misleads millions of people into the hands of the very conspiring men the scriptures warned about. We might be complying with more that is wrong than we think. I dunno, I’m seeing the church depart farther and farther from the doctrine that I see in the pages of the BoM
My problem is that the church has not repented of its paths of wickedness. 6 figure living stipends are not supported by the scriptures. The LDS church has a paid ministry if you get high enough.
"26 And the priests were not to depend upon the people for their support; but for their labor they were to receive the grace of God, that they might wax strong in the Spirit, having the knowledge of God, that they might teach with power and authority from God."
Mosiah 18:26
To further prove the point, research when Alma said he got paid by the people.
The churches business dealings are dishonest. They use and abuse the poor. They create the poor. Not even a whisper of caring for their fellow man. They make a big show of their donations to the UN, American Red Cross and other organizations all the while they neglect the foster-care system. They neglect those injured by their actions in business.
The members donate greatly, while the church leadership loves its back room deals.
"For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted."
"(A)nd your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts."
"O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?"
Mormon 8 applies to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints more than it applied to the churches at the time of Joseph Smith.
Not to mention we have a Skull and Bones profit at the head of our church now.
@@allthingsarepossiblethruchrist Connor had a musing about that a while back. I evaluate the actions in the now. Moses was a part of who knows how many Egyptian things. Alma the Younger was a participant in Noah's court. People can repent. I look at the now, not throw mud at what the people did in the past after they have changed and repented.
@@Veevslav1 did he repent? It put it in his book Heart 2 Heart and said it was a fun time.
@@allthingsarepossiblethruchristthats because the skull and bones President Nelson was part of did not resemble anything close to what it is now. It was nothing more than a social club where people could do activities together.
@wheels636 @wheels636 where did you get that information from? The University of Utah admitted that one initiate literally went crazy during the ceremony. He caused lots of damage to the University and was hospitalized. It was in the Universities newspaper
At 21:30 you make the faulty assumption that Growth = God’s Work. In this Telestial world there has been many examples where Might does not equal Right; in fact it is often the opposite. In the last days, “they have ALL gone astray save it be a FEW, who are the humble followers of Christ… because they are taught by the precepts of men.” (2 Nephi 28:14; see also Mormon 8:36 & 1 Nephi 14:12)
Wow. That says what I was saying to my husband the other day. I told him I don't hear any revelation. The just say the same things that others say. Vomit is a great way of saying it.
I appreciate your honest, straight forward explanation. I mostly appreciate your respect, and grace. I have been listening to a few people who have a feeling of defensiveness and anger. Even if they don't want that. You are calm, well studied and non-judgmental.
Our family enjoys your books and understanding
This was good! I'm glad I listened and like your explanation. Id like to say it feels good 😊 but I know I need to make sure God is teaching me alongside what you are saying.
Something I have realized as my life plods along is all these beliefs are still passed down. I remember my mom making statements about the gospel... False doctrine taught by her leaders and parents. It just was the teaching
As I have gotten older I have realized a few things... When I repeat them or ponder them I just "know" something isn't right. Some of these things you talked about I actually didn't even know what they meant. But I remember being taught tidbits. Interesting as well, many were countered by teachings in the BOM 🤔
I can feel many things being taught now are off a bit and signs of our culture as a nation and church
I am grateful for the Spirit of God that guides me.
Your mention of Hugh Nibely reminds me of my reading of Approaching Zion. Nibley seemed to be castigating members and even leadership.
Moreover, he seemed to cast a critical light those who sought money, wealth over spirituality or drawing closer to Christ. He specifically mentioned MLMs and its prevalence in Utah.
Even if Joseph did, Jesus did not teach that authority is how you tell a true church or a true prophet, but by whether or not the person, prophet or church really lives and follows all of his teachings, which he knew no one could for no one is perfect, thus his point to only follow his teachings and not imperfect mortals. For any church or prophet can claim true authority, as most do, but who really follows the pure teachings of Christ?
Great points Connor, I very much enjoyed this one
Another fantastic video! Thank you Connor!
By that thinking, then wouldn't any or all of the branches from Joseph's original church (Community of Christ, FLDS, Etc) or even perhaps the Catholic Church and or all of it's branches be true churches with real authority? Since they likely had members and leaders who were once given such authority? Jesus didn't teach that growth determines a true church or a true prophet, for then couldn't the Catholic Church be considered the true church? Falsehoods actually attract more followers than truth, so a church that taught feel good falsehoods would likely be much larger than one that taught the difficult truths that Jesus taught. It seems all religions and churches and scriptures teach a mix of truth and error, including Joseph's original church, thus why Jesus seemed against formal religion and even against following so called prophets, for there are no perfect people to lead a church and not always have people be led astray by imperfect prophets and leaders who will often be wrong or unrighteous. It seems Jesus just wanted us to follow his simple natural law teachings on our own, that we can prove are truth by experience over time and not put our trust in man to lead us.
Secular history would make the Pope God's authority on earth as it's history can be traced from Peter to the present Pope, and it is growing in numbers by very good people reactivating or joining but without full approval of the current Pope's policies.
stop making stuff up, Jesus was baptized by the one prophet they had at the time, and he attended synagogue every week and the temple three or four times a year.
I agree
@@BrianTerrill That does not seem very likely given many of his teachings, for he didn't seem to believe in his religion. How would we know if what the Gospels say about him is true and what he really did, for we weren't there? We only have his teachings to go on, not what people claimed he did, etc. Many of his teachings contradict each other, so they can't all really be from him and likely aren't when we study how the Gospels came to be.
@Posi2300 talk specifics what teachings are you saying contradict one another, I hate reading this horse crap that people say he taught without actually being shown some specifics abd I've read the Journal of Discourses.
The fruits of the gospel have nothing to do with organizational size, wealth, or multi-million dollar buildings. It is angelic visitation, healing, revelation, etc. If these things cease it is due to unbelief. Incorrect beliefs is unbelief. Also, Christ wanted compliance to the authorities of Judaism as a testimony to them that he was God and he had not yet redeemed men via his sacrifice. John wrested the kingdom from the Jews according to Joseph Smith and Christ came from outside the established order.
My friend, insightful as usual. Although I really think you are stretching on this conclusion. I personally can’t find any way for sincere seekers of truth to fit into the LDS church.
I’ve been holding my breath for this.
So when did Brigham young and following church leaders repent of these false doctrines? When has the church repented? The church doest practice polygamy( in this life)but still supports and teaches it. Blacks and the priesthood? "Men are punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgressions" right? I'll continue to turn to the Lord and his proven prophets in the BOM and Bible, not a prideful organization that requires money for my salvation... sorry I'm poor.
God never called his prophets by voting consensus. You might argue Joseph was. None of the following claimed to be called of God by him appearing to them.
I always appreciate your thoughtful musings. This is no exception.
I do respect that you've spent a lot of time on this... but what if Pres Nelson reinstituted Polygamy again today?
Scripturally, he could justify it, with Sec 132. Even the Family Proclamation doesn't exclude the possibility of homes with more than one wife. It has always been implied that (like Emma) women condone supporting their husband in plural marriage to receive the highest level of exaltation. We ignore that today, but it is there in sec 132.
My personal study of this issue has been relatively recent, but protracted over seven years. I feel like you are in the early stages of realizing the problems, but are still making excuses because of..... keys and line of authority.
Prophets absolutely do and can get it wrong. And when it's a "current" issue...it can cause a ton of destruction. For not following the prophet on the jibbyjab issue, we were excoriated and shunned by family, friends, our ward, and my husband had his job threatened for 2.5 years. It felt like total catastrophe. Unforgiveable really, but it would have been nice to consider forgiving if only any sort of apology or recognition of wrong-doing was offered. Still waiting. Yet, the damages and death and pain brought on by this "misstep" are all around us, stacking up in the room like rotting carcasses.
Polygamy is similar in nature. You might be 5th or 6th generation like me in so many family lines of ancestors that decided to follow Brigham. The 1852 polygamy revelation read by William Clayton wasn't something that was easily ignored. You were required to be rebaptized. You were prodded to make that blood oath in the endowment house. You were surrounded by hundreds of miles of unforgiveable wilderness and desert, so without money and means you couldn't just leave. Generations suffered at the hands of those coerced into polygamy.
Perhaps your grandmothers who were burdened by the "blessing" or "command" left their thoughts. One of my grandmothers lamented in her autobiography that she never had a day of rest once her husband took other wives. She was abandoned and unloved. Raised 10 kids on her own. Walked 10 miles or more a day for work just to have enough meal to feed her family. I wish she was the only example. There are several.
Did you know that Joseph Smith, in a lecture given in Nauvoo, prophesied that those who entered into the practice... would curse their families for up to four generations?
Is it just a coincidence that the fifth and 6th generations of these ancestors are FINALLY coming to terms with this great evil thrust upon their ancestors, waking up to the false traditions of their fathers?
I have let go of my expectations with the institution I learned so much from, took so much pride in, and absolutely adored being a part of for 50+ years.
Following leaders in error because of keys and authority.... feels comfy and cozy. I'd love to do it. But to me, the realization has come all too clearly that generations literally hang in the balance when 'missteps' happen. And the institutions led by these men become really uncomfortable and even hostile when you are non-compliant. I felt completely trapped during the "jibbyjab" trial. I wish my ancestors had figured out a way to escape what they recognized as... questionable and "hard" doctrine in polygamy. (I actually do have one grandfather that packed up and left...and it was a harrowing escape.)
When Jesus visited the Nephites he first taught faith, repentance, baptism. He taught them it was the doctrine of Christ. And not to add or subtract from it.
Why have we ADDED so dang much? Do we believe our own scriptures? Do we believe Christ?
Do you have a line?
Or are we really just supposed to be what feels like "luke warm"....and accept the good with the bad because hey, the keys and authority are here.
I feel so much peace recognizing that ultimately, the authority is with Christ. Anything that gives me the "icky" vibes.... and is an addition or subtraction of the doctrine of Christ.... is just out for me these days.
I appreciate you lowering the bar so far and in a way the church never would.
You explained well what I am been trying to wrap my thoughts around. There was one other example that I think is one of the most powerful examples of recognition of authority. Jesus remained silent while the priests, etc., were questioning him in his spurious trial. Matthew 26 62-65. They ask him many questions. But Jesus holds his peace. Then the high priest says "I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God." That is when Jesus makes an answer to them. Thus, by His example He recognizes their authority (to their detriment).
At the end of 4 Nephi there were 3 types of churches. What was the biggest? Was it the truest? No!
So, did BY lead the people of the church astray? If so, why did it take God 25-30 years to remove him? Did BY ever have the keys of the priesthood? Can a wicked man hold the keys?
Because despite teachings to the contrary God lets man choose. Every dispensation has ended in corruption. Brigham leading the church would have been like Judas taking over leadership of the church.
Where do you get the idea that God removes corrupt leaders? You won’t find that teaching in the scriptures, simply in the teachings of the false leaders.
The quorum of the 12 were never suppose to run the church. . They were only to go our into the world to preach the gospel to those without it. BY changed all that to position himself to be in charge.
Not quite accurate. Saul was removed and his throne given to David. Jehu was sent into Jerusalem to remove Jezebel who slew her and dogs ate almost all of her before they could bury her as God promised. Remember the king in Daniel who God warned by writing on a wall that he would die for his evilness and he did the next day.
Sometimes God gives us who we deserve and seek after just before He delivers His wrath. But His judgment is just as is His mercy.
@rebekahgriffin567 I definitely agree with you, Rebekah. Every prophet of this dispensation (except Joseph) has taught that principle. When I asked the question my tongue was firmly in my cheek LOL.
How does you view of retaining priesthood in spite of false teaching square with section 124 and its threat of rejection as a church at the loss of Joseph and Hyrum?
So, regarding authority, and the example of Alma, and what it says in Doc and cov 121: would it follow then that the other “branches” of the restoration (who were founded by people who can also trace their authority back through Joseph Smith) are potentially still operating with true authority as well? I know I see many good fruits of the Spirit happening in those churches, and I believe and hope we will all be grafted back to our mother tree, as Jacob 5 says.. I guess I don’t have any good reason to believe that God doesn’t also honor their priesthood authority.
8:48 The same would go for the catholic/orthodix christian chruches.
I agree with you, unless they change the ordinances. Which is what a lot of people seem to think they have done. What do you think about that?
They HAVE changed the ordinances.. I used to have to covenant to obey my husband and now that is gone. I make the covenant to obey directly with God now.
That’s the problem with connors ideas. How can we just sit back and allow the leaders to make their mistakes without acknowledging that those mistakes are affecting the very things that grant access to exaltation? It’s silly, really.
To think that Jesus would sustain or use BY and others to lead people (to be unrighteous and live opposite to his teachings) would be completely contrary to his teachings in the Gospels and how he taught about not falling for false prophets. Jesus was all about not wanting people to be deceived by people or prophets who claimed to have authority or follow him, but don't.
This is very faith promoting.
No other church has the Book of Mormon, Temple Endowment or was restored by Joseph Smith. That’s what I hang my testimony on.
Living the teachings of the Gospel as taught in our Church brings peace and joy and a path to follow Christ.
I think the culture of prophet worship and thinking they are infallible is a big part of the problem.
There are literally hundreds of churches that came from the church JS started.
The temple endowment we have today is made up from Brigham not recieved from God through Joseph. Joseph taught we could only recieve an endowment from on high once the Navoo temple was complete and Joseph died before it was completed. It never actually was fully finished anyhow.
This is simply not true. There are other churches that have the Book of Mormon and which descend from Joseph’s restored church every bit as much as the brighamite church. As for the endowment, what the brighamite church has is what remains in an evolved state from what Brigham introduced as what he claimed Joseph revealed to him in partiality with alleged instructions to “figure out the rest.”
@@mssearchfortruth Principles of the endowment originated from the very beginning. Your spreading lies.
ruclips.net/video/eTEFErUI3r0/видео.html
Jesus did not teach the temple endowment, he taught the opposite. Marriage and family are naturally eternal for all human beings.
I think there's a clear difference between a leader sinning vs a prophet teaching false doctrine. David commiting adultery and murder or Peter refusing to eat with gentiles is different from Peter or Paul or Isaiah, etc teaching false doctrine.
It seems to me that the whole point of having a prophet and a church with teaching authority (as opposed to just going by the scriptures alone or by personal religious experience alone) is that they maintain sound doctrine. Its supposed to avoid the errors of other churches that constantly adopt the views of the world and incorporate them into their beliefs. If a prophet can teach false doctrine and another prophet can contradict an older prophet on doctrine, then that seems to defeat the whole point of having modern-day prophets.
As much as I appreciate Connor's efforts here, a lot of this sounds like an attempt to validate the church no matter what it does.
So, Jesus is fine with leaders leading people astray because maybe things can be corrected later.
Yeah, sorry, but no thanks.
Our belief and "testimony" if you want to call it that should be in and of Christ and the gospel. Not an organization fronting as a church.
@@TPIR_Fan_1972Spoken like a true Protestant, not a Latter-day Saint.
@@jaredshipp9207 So you’re saying in order to be a Latter Day Saint one has to validate the church no matter what it does?
It's not about the righteousness of the one performing the ordinance, it's that the ordinance was changed (made up) by BY in St George just before his death. The only valid ordinance we have is the baptismal ordinance because it's found in the BofM. Even the sacrament was changed from wine to water. We only have a shell of a church that Joseph restored.
But how do you explain the temple ordinances among the Native Americans?
@@reppi8742 what do we know of the Native Americans who were left at the end of the BOM? They were wicked and had destroyed all the righteous. Why would they have true ordinances from God to pass down?
Joseph translated Abraham chapter one so READ his statement that he made on April 7, 1836 that Dr. Reeves and other ignorant fools never mention: "The curse is not yet taken off the sons of Canaan, neither will it be until it is affected by as great a power as caused it to come."!!! Continued...
It would be interesting to analyze at what point does God say, no more, this is not my people or my church. What was it that caused the Lord to finally reject the Jews or the need to restart reform restore the Christian experiment?
Being part of the church is not the same as being part of the ChurchTM. It may be perfectly okay with the Lord to separate from the Church TM as long as we don't separate from the larger more important definition.
Yes. D&C 10. The “church” is a spiritual thing. It is all those who repent and come unto Christ. You can’t point to a building or institution and say “there it is”
Simple answer is that the Mormon church is not and was never the Lord’s church. Christians are His church ❤
I wonder that too. I'm trying to go by what the spirit teaches me to do. I just want truth, not trusting in our Father's traditions or culture which is becoming more and more evil!
You're in the church because you are famous and your Stake president doesn't dare to excommunicate you.
Not everyone has that luxury. Like you said, leader roulette is a real thing. 😢
I think Brigham's repentance may have started even in his lifetime. You see this in how his language changes a bit in respect to teaching some things like Adam-God. In the beginning he is much more sure, but later records he uses the "I reckon" wording a lot more. I think he was still wrong about a lot when he died, but maybe there is some evidence that he was starting to change.
Thanks for your perspective.
Perhaps he was starting to change some of his opinions (though I don't think so), but he was still committing adultery frequently, and encouraging others to do the same. He was also committing genocide on native American tribes in the area, and calling for the murders of many Americans. His life was full of lies, and those were hardly going away when he was murdered by John Taylor.
Oops...I just opened a new can of worms with that last part, didn't I?
@@jasonsellers56yup! Go further!
But couldn't Catholics say the same thing? And when would it be a "great apostasy"?
Being a man and sinning is quite different than teaching and implementing false doctrine. Certainly we have no use for false prophets who teach false doctrine!
Why would God allow his chosen method to reveal his truth be undermined by falsehood that undermines trust?
Thank God for Joseph, Hyrum and their families. It’s the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Not the Church of Jesus Christ of General Authorities. The faithful Saints, with the disseminated priesthood, have always kept the Gospel from being taken from the Earth and always will.
I mean Peter got mad at Paul for a bunch of stuff he wrote, so there's that. Basically created a lot of the Evangelical core beliefs that exclude things like baptism. Mortals make mistakes.
Oooof! This was a hard listen. I didn’t like any of your points. I too see the problems with Brigham, and am still a member, but I’d recommend a study of authority using only scripture and see where it really comes from. Those baptisms at the water of Mormon were authorized through the spirit, not a dormant priesthood, as if that’s a thing. Take a look at the de-evolution of the definition of keys from the early church. Take a look at what has been added to and taken from the original doctrine on heavenly reward. All the best.
I'd be curious to have anyone's feedback on the following:
1. The story of Emma hating Section 132 when Hyrum showed it to her (burning the copy of it in the fireplace)
2. The justification of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, and others in taking more than one wife. The caveat given by B.O.M. Jacob wrt the practice of plural marriage.
3. The implied practice of plural marriage by Jared and the Brother of Jared (look at the number of children).
4. The current practice of polygamy in African, Middle Eastern and Eastern Cultures. And how to minister to them currently in the ordinances of the Gospel.
5. RMN's statement that in the coming days we would be given "Abrahamic Tests."
6. The apparent felicity of Joseph F Smith's family.
7. The statements of Eliza R Snow and other Pioneer Women regarding plural/celestial marriage. I find it hard to believe that she was a gullible, hoodwinked acolyte of Brother Brigham.
and emma kicked eliza out of their home she had been living with them as a boarder when she found and eliza and jospeh got sealed and wasnt friends with her anymore....i dont think eliza could have kids cause she was married to joseph and brigham and never had kids and i dont beleive she nevee slept with either...so joseph not having other kids doesnt bother me...more dna tests could prove more kids or like he and emma maybe didnt make it past infancy and early childhood like several of their kids did
Connor, i also think it strange that the 'true' religion in Christ's day killed him and it was still the best way forward.
It was the corrupt priest who killed him, not the religion.
Christ was saying that the scibes and pharisees have the scriptures; therefore, keep peace with them and follow the internal and external word of God...regarding Matthew 23 (KJV).
"God gave me a brain and I intend to use it" 😂 💯
I think the agency discussion is the best explanation for many policy changes. Especially the blacks and the priesthood issue. Was it right? In my opinion no. But as a point of order, it was the agency of the leaders that made that policy "binding." God was able to fix it because he is leading His Church.
Lehi left thr Church in Jerusalem to get away from the abominations there... for they were practicing polygamy and wanted to kill him for soeaking agsinst them.
So are we just to leave the church or to pull back or out because of the clown show that exists?
@@Topher2024that's a great question you should ask God.
@@Topher2024 The more you study & really follow the pure teachings of Jesus the clearer the way will be.
Lehi never said any of that. He said he left due to a dream. All people there were wicked, which was a view shared by many of his contemporaries like Jeremiah. Jerusalem was destroyed. That why LEHI said he left. Not good to make things up to support your view. What you said is not given as why Lehi left.
@jeremybelinski7713 Laman and Lemuel said they knew the people of Jerusalem were good righteous people.
Is there a reason you won't let me comment on your videos Connor?
I love your content and want to add my voice, but your channel won't let me comment on your page.
Is there a reason for this?
I would guess it’s RUclips’s algorithm that doesn’t like your comments. I doubt Connor deletes comments. But I could be wrong.
@OmahaAreaLoya Nah, it's either him or his moderators.
This comment was fine, the rest were not.
*Did Brigham Young ever teach anything true?*
Only halfway through the video and your points are all disproven (if we take the first vision to be true.) By the first vision itself. God's intervention into religion would prove that not only can authority be lost by unworthiness, but that teaching false doctrine is a huge issue to God, one that He Himself would come to intervene. If the prophets do teach false doctrine, then the church is false, even by LDS doctrine.
Agreed
I agree that a true church with righteous leaders would not teach false doctrine. Jesus was very clear to not follow or trust in false prophets or leaders like BY who claim to follow him but live opposite to his teachings, who then lead people astray with them.
The Book of Mormon has been revealed which truly testifies of Jesus Christ. What has happened after is subject to debate.
then there are no true churches in these Latter Days. I think it is coming to that . Sadly
One reason that there are so many ignorant ones in the church today is that the adult class is like a primary class when I joined, and also there is no investigators class! You should READ Willing am Clayton's (Joseph's scribe) journals! There is no doubt that he taught and practiced polygamy! Also, look at videos by Brian Hales who knows more and has more evidence of this than anyone! Heck, even read the church's own essay about it!!! Continued.
Could it be that all of you are wrong? What does the Bible say about those who are the ones teaching false doctrine?? Connor?
I believe that the true church needs to have both the priesthood and all of the ordinances that were in the church soon after Christ was resurrected. One of those ordinances (mentioned in 1 Corinthiana 15:3-29) was baptism for the dead. Assuming the Book of Mormon is true, which I do believe, that narrows down the options for the Lord's church significantly.
Sound analysis.
So true to me.. I think the Church has many of the only true doctrines taught in Christianity! But I believe we as a people are riding on the coattails of Joseph, Hyrum, Emma, Lucy and a few others who stayed behind or died. Let us true saints( I hope I'm one) support only true doctrine( not traditions )and what Joseph actually said and this those words ofJesus Christ?
@microgardenmom Except that Paul's reference to baptism for the dead was not a directive to baptize for the dead, but he was just bringing it up as an example of the inconsistency of the Corinthians' beliefs that there was no resurrection, while also performing baptisms for the dead.
Also, Mormon taught against the idea in his epistle to Moroni, in Moroni 8: 22-24:
"All little children are alive in Christ, *and also all they that are without the law.* For *the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law;* wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and *unto such baptism availeth nothing-*
"But it is mockery before God, *denying the mercies of Christ,* and the power of his Holy Spirit, and *putting trust in dead works.*
"Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law."
As the Lord Himself said in Doctrine and Covenants 10: 67: "Whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church." And He continued in the next verse: "Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church." That makes it pretty clear to me about what the Lord's true church is.
There is some truth about the blood atonement doctrine that was done in the days of Moses, but if you are so ignorant that you can't see the other things I have stated here, then it would be useless for me to understand something more complicated! Also, you need to READ 2 Samuel what it states clearly by the Lord that He gave David his wives!!! God does not change! You are correct about the Adam/God theory which is confusing many scholars since he did teach the true doctrine also that Adam and Eve were Fathered by God, see Mormon Doctrine under "Son if God." You really should try to study and learn a lot more before you mislead many others!!!
You are so ignorant! I have studied theology and Mormon doctrine for more than 60 years and I am well aware that Joseph and others ordained blacks until as late as 1935, but these were inspired exceptions Just as Christ made an exception for the Canaanite woman after initially REFUSING her as recorded in Matthew chapter 15! Continued...
Thanks - great thoughts on this difficult topic
Jacob & Zenos both show how the Lifeblood of Christ's Church prevails over temporary corruptions:
The following verses of Jacob 5 (65-75) accurately describe how the bitter & corrupt branches & fruit of polygamy arose & then was plucked out of the Lord's church in these latter days, while preserving the NATURAL BRANCHES (those essential keys, covenants, ordinances, & blessings), which are then grafted unto the NATURAL TREE (monogamy}:
[Note: I place [brackets] around any words I add to these verses]
Some Proposed Definitions of Words used in these verses
"NATURAL" = That which the Lord originally plants and ordains (contrasted in the parable words like "Bitter," "Wild," "Bad," and "Evil," which oppose the Lord)
"FRUIT" = The Lives of the Disciples or Members of the Lord's Church
TREE: Dispensation of the Gospel
BRANCHES: That which
Jacob 5:65-69:
* The Lord of the vineyard cautions his servants to "clear away the branches [polygamy] which bring forth BITTER FRUIT," while being careful to "not clear away the BAD thereof all at once, lest [they completely] lose the trees [of life] of my vineyard
* .... wherefore ye shall clear away the bad [polygamy] according AS the GOOD shall GROW.... until the good [keys, etc., plus monogamy] shall OVERCOME the bad...
* .... And thus will I sweep away the BAD OUT OF MY VINEYARD, & the branches of the natural tree [priesthood keys, covenants, ordinances, temple blessings, etc.] will I graft in again unto the natural tree [monogamy] ....
* .... & thus will I bring them [keys, etc. plus monogamy] TOGETHER AGAIN, that they shall bring forth the NATURAL FRUIT, & they [natural trees, branches, and fruit] shall be one .... & the bad [polygamy] shall be cast away, yea, even out of all the land of my vineyard.... (Jacob 5:65-69)
Jacob 5:73-75:
* "And there began to be the NATURAL FRUIT [Disciples, from the Natural TREE of monogamy, nurtured by the natural BRANCHES] again in the vineyard; & the NATURAL BRANCHES began to grow & thrive exceedingly; & the WILD branches [polygamy] began to be plucked off & to be cast away; and they did keep the ROOT & the TOP thereof [perhaps the Faith in Christ as the "ROOT" & the Lord's place at the head of His church as "the TOP"]
* .... And thus they labored .... even until the BAD [polygamy] had been cast away out of the vineyard, and the Lord had PRESERVED unto himself that the trees had become again the natural fruit [of the NATURAL roots, tree, and branches]; and they became like unto one body; and the FRUITS were EQUAL [perhaps in the way men and women in the Lord's church should always be seen as equally valued in the eyes of their Heavenly Father--which polygamy corrupts?]; & the Lord of the vineyard had PRESERVED unto himself the NATRUAL FRUIT [that was nurtured from the natural ROOTS (of the atonement), natural BRANCHES (of keys, covenants, ordinances), and natural TREES (of monogamy)], which was most precious unto him from the beginning ....
* .... And ... the Lord of the vineyard saw that his fruit was good, and that his vineyard was no more corrupt .... and the bad is cast away [and he said to his servants:] .... behold ye shall have joy with me because of the fruit of my vineyard." (Jacob 5:73-75)
Bottom line:
* We can recognize that polygamy was indeed "bad" and a blight (temporary "wild branches") upon the Lord's restored church--that had to eventually be "plucked out" to preserve the olive tree and allow the good fruit to be nourished and flourish,
* That Joseph Smith indeed condemned and shunned the abomination and practice of polygamy--which was, as he and the scriptures always clearly and unequivocally exclaimed, a corruption and an abomination (or blight) that especially undervalued, and often subjected, pierced, and shot daggers into the tender hearts of the Lord's daughters,
* But that, despite that corruption, the still-preserved and living roots (atonement of Savior) & "natural branches" of the olive tree (such as priesthood keys, covenants, ordinances, & temple blessings) remain an integral part of the Lord's living church today . . . with the Savior Himself at the head (TOP) of that church . . .
I understand the limits of you analogy but, there is always breach of contract.
You have errored on the side of staying in the boat but when should we panic?
Mountain Meadows is an example of the harm by following men because of their mantle. No matter what people will follow them after receiving their own witness from God ie. the jab and many other examples.
What would be an issue that would cause you to question the brethren and their claim to revelation?
What's the alternative? The Book of Mormon testifies of Jesus Christ. That is the rock I build my testimony on. What people do is immaterial to my belief.
@@tinkeringengr To follow the simple and few teachings of Jesus on your own, as he seems to have wanted. But it seems after he was gone people added to his teachings and made him out to be super human to create a religion around him. While Jesus seemed to be against formal religion for they are always quickly led astray by imperfect leaders and false doctrines.
@Posi2300 That's not true. Jesus Christ does sponsor organized religion, when built upon his rock, and gives men the authority to administer ordinances. Go read 3 Nephi and tell me Christ wasn't instituting organized religion among the people of the Americas. Read in the gospels what Christ was authorizing and teaching his apostles to do in organizing and administering ordinances to his faithful followers. Read the word of Isaiah, words which Christ highly endorsed, about the establishment of Zion and the enlarging of the tent covering and her cords and strong stakes. Christ, who instituted the sacrament and charged his apostles to administer it often, clearly sponsored organized religion.
@@tinkeringengr the alternative is they are false prophets and they are not prophets of God.
Great musings, Brother Connor-as usual.
We LDS face the MOST CRITICAL DECISION JUNCTION since the death of the Lord’s founding prophet, Joseph Smith.
Why? Because BOTH items below are clearly true:
TRUTH # 1
Joseph Smith ALWAYS condemned and NEVER preached or practiced ANY form of polygamy by any name (celestial or plural marriage or spiritual wifery, etc.) and was ALWAYS faithful to his ONE wife, Emma.
TRUTH # 2
THEREFORE, though tough to hear--Brigham Young introduced the abominations of polygamy (Jacob 2-3) into the church, while FALSELY PINNING that decision upon Joseph Smith.
So what’s next for LDS members?
We must also accept:
TRUTH # 3
That corruption introduced through polygamy DID NOT destroy or cancel these LIFEBLOOD elements of the Lord's true and living restored church, which REMAIN with us TODAY:
* the PRIESTHOOD KEYS
* the continuing presence & efficacy of COVENANTS (including Abrahamic, Sacramental, Temple, & Book of Mormon (see DC 84)
* the continued efficacy of TEMPLE WORK and ORDINANCES, which build upon those KEYS and COVENANTS, and which continue to make possible the work of salvation on BOTH SIDES of the veil.
* the Savior's atoning sacrifice--as the life-giving ROOT of His restored church today
* the Savior Himself--as the HEAD of his living and restored church today
(BTW: I think the Lord gave us the Parable of the Olive Trees (especially Jacob 5:62-75), planted throughout the Lord's Vineyard to:
1) Warn us how the polygamy Jacob condemned in his day would arrive in OUR DAY and
2) Show us how the Lord would preserve the good and "NATURAL BRANCHES" of the Olive Tree (the LIFEBLOOD found in KEYS, COVENANTS, and TEMPLE ORDINANCES) even after the CORRUTPION from the WILD and BAD branches that infested the VINEYARD during polygamy . . . More on that parable's message to us today--as I REPLY to myself below)
In the meantime, this bit of advice seems relevant:
* DON'T FEAR the TRUTH
* CELEBRATE the FACT that the Lord's Founding Prophet, Joseph, always spoke the truth when he said he never practiced polygamy and was always faithful to his one wife, Emma (C'mon--doesn't that just make you take a big breath of relief and shout: "Halleluiah Joseph!")
* TRUST that the Lord preserved the foundations of his church (the keys, covenants and ordinances) --even if Brigham Young temporarily introduced polygamy and its inevitable corruptions into the Lord's vineyard
[Continued from above . . .]
Jacob & Zenos both show how the Lifeblood of Christ's Church prevails over temporary corruptions:
The following verses of Jacob 5 (65-75) accurately describe how the bitter & corrupt branches & fruit of polygamy arose & then was plucked out of the Lord's church in these latter days, while preserving the NATURAL BRANCHES (those essential keys, covenants, ordinances, & blessings), which are then grafted unto the NATURAL TREE (monogamy}:
[Note: I place [brackets] around any words I add to these verses]
Some potential definitions:
"NATURAL" = That which was originally planted and ordained by the Lord (versus "Wild," "Bitter," "Bad," or "Evil," which oppose the Lord)
"TREE" = The vehicle for gathering and blessing the Lord's children through the Gospel
"FRUIT" = The lives of the members or disciples
"ROOT" = Faith in Christ
"TOP" = Christ as the Head of the Tree
Jacob 5:65-69:
* The Lord of the vineyard cautions his servants to "clear away the branches [polygamy] which bring forth BITTER FRUIT," while being careful to "not clear away the BAD thereof all at once, lest [they completely] lose the trees [of life] of my vineyard
* .... wherefore ye shall clear away the bad according AS the GOOD shall GROW.... until the good [keys, etc., plus monogamy] shall OVERCOME the bad...
* .... And thus will I sweep away the BAD OUT OF MY VINEYARD, & the branches of the natural tree [priesthood keys, covenants, ordinances, temple blessings, etc.] will I graft in again unto the natural tree [monogamy] ....
* .... & thus will I bring them [keys, etc. plus monogamy] TOGETHER AGAIN, that they shall bring forth the NATURAL FRUIT, & they [natural trees, branches, and fruit] shall be one .... & the bad [polygamy] shall be cast away, yea, even out of all the land of my vineyard.... (Jacob 5:65-69)
Jacob 5:73-75:
* "And there began to be the NATURAL FRUIT again in the vineyard; & the NATURAL BRANCHES began to grow & thrive exceedingly; & the WILD branches [polygamy] began to be plucked off & to be cast away; and they did keep the ROOT & the TOP thereof [perhaps the atoning sacrifice of the Lord as the "ROOT" & the Lord's place at the head of His church as "the TOP"]
* .... And thus they labored .... even until the BAD [polygamy] had been cast away out of the vineyard, and the Lord had PRESERVED unto himself that the trees had become again the natural fruit [of the NATURAL roots, tree, and branches]; and they became like unto one body; and the FRUITS were EQUAL [perhaps in the way men and women in the Lord's church should always be seen as equally valued in the eyes of their Heavenly Father--which polygamy corrupts?]; & the Lord of the vineyard had PRESERVED unto himself the NATRUAL FRUIT [that was nurtured from the natural ROOTS (of the atonement), natural BRANCHES (of keys, covenants, ordinances), and natural TREES (of monogamy)], which was most precious unto him from the beginning ....
* .... And ... the Lord of the vineyard saw that his fruit was good, and that his vineyard was no more corrupt .... and the bad is cast away [and he said to his servants:] .... behold ye shall have joy with me because of the fruit of my vineyard." (Jacob 5:73-75)
Bottom line:
* We can recognize that polygamy was indeed "bad" and a blight (temporary "wild branches") upon the Lord's restored church--that had to eventually be "plucked out" to preserve the olive tree and allow the good fruit to be nourished and flourish,
* That Joseph Smith indeed condemned and shunned the abomination and practice of polygamy--which was, as he and the scriptures always clearly and unequivocally exclaimed, a corruption and an abomination (or blight) that especially undervalued, and often subjected, pierced, and shot daggers into the tender hearts of the Lord's daughters,
* But that, despite that corruption, the still-preserved and living roots (atonement of Savior) & "natural branches" of the olive tree (such as priesthood keys, covenants, ordinances, & temple blessings) remain an integral part of the Lord's living church today . . . with the Savior Himself at the head (TOP) of that church . . .
It’s not ok to find issue with the leaders. That is what got me removed from the Church. Support them or leave. Definitions of Prophets, Seers and Revelators are loose and creative and interpreted by local “leaders”.
It's one thing to calmly discuss disagreements you have with leaders. It's another thing when you have hostility in your heart. The world doesn't like to judge people by things like "hostility" or "contention" because they are subjective matters of the heart, but the church is supposed to work by the spirit, and the sacrifice we are supposed to offer in our weekly sacraments is a broken heart and a contrite spirit.
Is finding fault with the Lord's Annointed consistent with keeping the Sabbath Day holy?
Thanks for the insights.
Two interesting scriptures that I think deal with the murder of Joseph and Hyrum.
JST Luke 3
8 Until the fullness of time, and the law and the testimony shall be sealed, and the keys of the kingdom shall be delivered up again unto the Father;
9 To administer justice unto all; to come down in judgment upon all, and to convince all the ungodly of their ungodly deeds, which they have committed; and all this in the day that he shall come;
DC 133
71 Behold, and lo, there are none to deliver you; for ye obeyed not my voice when I called to you out of the heavens; ye believed not my servants, and when they were sent unto you ye received them not.
72 Wherefore, they sealed up the testimony and bound up the law, and ye were delivered over unto darkness.
Good points but there were times when they had to leave. Lehi had to leave the organization. Alma who you mention had to leave. I do like your points that staying may be the best for some. Others have to go or be forced to go. The gospel has not been restored. Joseph barely got the Book of Mormon out which was his only responsibility. He also tried to set up a church. He did his best and I do believe God gave him some light along the way. Yet by Kirkland it was over. The saints and leaders would not have him any more. It took a while to get rid of him and his brothers. The traditions of men were too strong. Joseph gave us two Gods, one spirit and one Son who took on flesh. No God the Holy Spirit at all. That was canon in our D&C 1835 Yet Brigham gave us sect 130 with 3 Gods and the Father a body. Those are big deals. Which was true, the doctrine of the Lectures on Faith or sect 130 after Joseph was gone. There is so much falsehood mixed with truth. But going alone into the wilderness is not easy for anyone. So doing as you say and praying for divine intervention may work too.
Isolation is the devils agenda.
I would love to hear about some of the amazingly good things that came from Brigham Young. He was an inspired pioneer and leader. He was the man called for the time. Would you consider a musing about the great things leaders have done despite their imperfections?
He does take the gold for the most wives… 🤣
It would be great to know if there were any. Seems like an overwhelming amount of bad the more you look into it. I don't think its a stretch to suggest he is a false prophet. If he doctored the historical record to initiate polygamy, I don't think it gets darker than that. Leading a generation into whoredoms is abominable.
Please no. Google what Bishop Snow did in central Utah pioneer time period with BY condoning his actions. That is the fruit of BY.
Good fruit cannot come from an evil tree. Brigham was far more than “imperfect.” If there was anything good he did, he did it to manipulate for his own gain like a true narcissist.
One last thought...
When Brigham said back in the 19th century that blacks could not have the Priesthood, could it be that even though he was in error physically that there are "spiritual Canaanites or Gentiles" ? Of course, we know there is both physical and spiritual darkness.
When Brigham said polygamy is the order of heaven, few take into account that the order of heaven is also the order of the eternities. What about his Rome comment ? We know ancient Rome persecuted Christians before the birth of Roman Catholism.
My point is that even though Brigham was in error, from another angle he was speaking the truth. As Paul said..."to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."
My issue with ANY Mormon is not necessarily moral or ethical issues. My issue is that the following can not be found anywhere...
D&C 84 (lds)
33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.
D&C 45 (lds)
67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion.
D&C 84:18,19
As Ive said in the past You can't have it both ways you can't have the church today is true but all the prophet's and leadership of the church who practiced polygamy are bad. The whole tree would die without the roots.
Connor I think you might feel strongly you're doing something noble, but its going to cause members with weak testimonies to leave or question the church, that'll be on your head.
By you're logic the catholic church could be true because it was founded by Peter. That not true at all.
I'm starting a pool. Who apostasyzes first? Connor or Cardin Ellis?
Connor, easily. Cardon can be a goofball, but you don't see him crapping on past prophets, rewriting history, or criticizing current ones.
@jaredshipp9207 he criticizes the current "beta" and "boomer" leaders on a pretty regular basis.
Joseph practiced polygamy, I'm really surprised at all these comments. And at Connor. But then again, idk any of you personally.
I guess it is time for me tell more of my history. I was born again in 1973. The Lord immediately started the trials of sanctification in earnest. For the next two years, I was tried in the law of obedience, having all manner of temptations being throw at me. One of the hardest temptations I had to overcome was lust. When I finished that test, the Lord gave me a sacrifice. When the Lord gave me the sacrifice, he showed me everything that would happen in my life as a result of the sacrifice. I saw that I would be excommunicated, and lose my family, friends and I would be a drifter and vagabond. Seeing the vision I told the Lord, no to the sacrifice, that he had the wrong guy. I was, in those days, an out of sight, out of mind, stay in line and do as your told person. The Lord said, OK, and left me to myself for six months. From the time I was born again until I told the Lord, no, the Lord was conversing with me daily and for six months there nothing. After six months, I was really missing the Lord's presence with me. I asked the Lord, why he was not talking to me. He reminded me of our last conversation and told me that when I said, No, he would just let me think about it and he asked me how I was feeling then. I told the Lord, "I cannot live without you. My relationship with you and your love is more important to me than anything else in my life. What do you want me to do?" The Lord told me to try and start a conversation with Pres. Kimball concerning laws, covenants commandments and ordinances and the future of the church. I thought, "This will surely get me excommunicated." But it did not matter. I loved the Lord and no sacrifice was too great. I was just glad the Lord did not ask me to kill one of my kids. So, for the next four years, I was trying to establish communication with the Leaders of the church, but instead of praying and asking God's revelation, they, to my face, told me they would not pray and seek revelation on the subjects I presented to them. President Kimball was silent through the whole test and I never got to meet him. At one point, I said to the Lord, "The leaders you have in charge of your church are totally incompetent. What do I need them for? Why don't we just start a new church?" And Jesus told me it was not time for that. I still had trials to go through and I still needed the temple. He told me I could not just leave on my own, I would have to wait for them to kick me out. That trial ended when they told me to stop pestering them and to stop praying about the things I wanted to talk to them about or I would be excommunicated. I actually had to write letter saying I would stop. I ask the Lord about writing the Letter and he told me the test was over and to not worry about it, so I wrote the letter.
At the same time I was going through my test of sacrifice, I was tested in the laws of the gospel and Chastity. The hardest of those tests was loving and forgiving the Leaders of the church. The final test of sanctification was consecration, which involved poverty. In 1980, I had gotten into the money business, selling life insurance and securities. That went broke in 1982 when the investment company I was working with declared bankruptcy. If you want details, let me know. Anyway, I was out of work and out of money with no Job prospects getting church welfare and when I prayed about it, the Lord showed me a vision. In the vision, I saw two doors. I looked out the door on the left and saw the wealth of the world and seats of power and I understood that if I chose to go through that door, all of that would be mine, but the end of that kingdom was terrestrial. I did not want that. I looked through the door on the right and there was mist, a fog, but there was a light beyond mist. and I understood that the celestial kingdom was on the other side. I made the choice to leave the path to the terrestrial kingdom and trust the Lord and I stepped into the mist. The Lord gave me a mission to serve in the temple everyday, and to trust him for everything. That test ended in November 1983 when the Lord visited me in the temple and made my calling and election sure and promised me the Celestial kingdom and took me into his presence. By 1991, I had riled up the Leaders of the church to such an extent that the stake president warned me if I did not abandon my alleged relationship with Jesus and get back in line behind the Leaders of the church, I would be excommunicated. I could not then, nor can I now abandon my relationship with Jesus, and I got excommunicated for now denying my relationship with Jesus. Considering the history of the church since 1991, and especially with that covid fiasco, I am do glad they kicked me out when they did. The idea of having to justify their wickedness to remain a member of the church is an appalling thought. I feel sorry for you that you have to make excuses for them.
But not to worry, it will be over soon for those corrupt men. Just like the wicked Jewish leadership who were leading the Jews astray were destroyed, God will clean his own house. In April, during conference, the Lord is going to destroy all those wicked men. The leadership of the church has been in the hands of the Jesuits since 1952 and Jesus wants his church back. I have a mission to go to SLC before April conference to warn the church to repent or be destroyed. Do you want to go with me?
Thank you so much for your testimony. I'm going through the beginning stages now. I just rented the line of my father/ mother in the Oriental life and they live of Jesus Christ teaching me through the pre mortal life. They is no other L LOVE like that!!!! I only want that forever! I cherish what I know that Joseph truly taught but I think the SERVANT of Isaiah is coming soon too!
If you corrupted the ordinance or walked around and denied those with dark skin the opportunity for the sacrament surely the Bishop/God would correct you.
I stay active in the church knowing that many members and ancient teachings are wrong, but the overwhelming majority are right and true. Likewise, I stay in the U.S. even though I know many Americans support a very old, senile, fascist convicted felon-Trump, as their leader, no matter how incredibly disturbing and awful it is. My mission president taught us, in zone conference, that Heavenly Father had physical sex with his daughter, Mary, which was a Brigham Young teaching, and knew it was disgusting and wrong. My mission president also taught many great, true things.
Why do you have this obsession with trump? No matter what the video topic is, you bring him up. Doesn’t it get exhausting talking about how much you dislike the guy? Let me clarify this. I am no Trump supporter, and I have had many conversations telling members of my own family that they have an unhealthy view almost idolatry towards him. You seem to be on the opposite end of the spectrum: so obsessed with how “evil” he is that you have to bring him into every single conversation
He's never been convicted of any felony! We know where you get your news
@@WyoCutlass71he has a hate of Trump demon
so you are voting for a 60 year old whore who has no bio kids because she loves abortion and communism and like the whore she is will do anything for money?.... repent
she is sick and hates the promised lamd and will destroy you and your future even if u support her
All Lucifer's lies are based on truisms. Adam is implicitly called, "The Son of God." Every child of God is a God. (This is its own philosophical treatise to explore). Properly, Adam was a Father God incarnate but in semantic terminology. For instance, Abraham is Father Abraham. As a Son of God (a God), he was the Father of Jesus according to the flesh...thus a Father God in flesh.
Terminlogy is tricky and can mean different things depending on context. Technically, though, Adam was Son of Gods (Elohiym). Yaweh is the Oneness of the Gods. There is a Father Yaweh, Son Yaweh and Holy Spirit Yaweh: the Name [singular] of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
"Of" is Genetive Tense meaning "belonging to". Yaweh is a Family Name.
Anyhow, hope this provides some refreshing perspectives to ponder.
While I am not fully on board about denying Joseph's polygamy, I still greatly appreciate this video! To me the principle rings true. "Except in the case of His only perfect Begotten Son, imperfect people are all God has ever had to work with." This includes our leaders.
Just look to the scriptures... Peter, Jonah, Moses, Abraham, Lehi, etc., etc., etc were all deeply flawed, imperfect individuals and yet God raised them up to be prophets and worked incredible things through them. Modern leaders are no different; they make mistakes... and that's okay; this is still God's church and work!
I think the prophets have strengths that the Lord uses while they are in their calling as Prophet. I agree that prophets are men and can make mistakes. I also think that sometimes commandments can be given temporarily. Using logic is good. I think the Spirit and logic generslly work together.
Men are men but if it is from God then God is the save yesterday, today, and tomorrow
You almost hit the nail on the head, just kind of bent the nail over. The answer is "keys". The Great Apostasy consisted of the keys being taken from the earth, most likely by the keys not being passed on to succeeding generations. There is a difference between "having priesthood authority" and "holding the keys of the priesthood" (you must hold priesthood authority in order to hold keys).
You actually gave the "best" answer in your penultimate reason, but confused it a bit by using the term "agency" to describe both the moral agency of those who hold the keys, and the same term "agency" to describe their holding the keys of the priesthood.
So your last two reasons were really the same thing - when God confers the keys of the priesthood to mortal agents, he respects the fact that they hold the keys! He is not like the person who delegates something to someone and then proceeds to ignore the delegation of authority in order to make sure that things are done the way they want them done. After the death of Joseph Smith, the Quorum of the Twelve, who were joint holders of the keys of the priesthood, conferred the keys on Brigham Young. Not on James Strang, not on Samuel Smith, not on Sidney RIgdon.
I'm reminded of the account by Stephen R. Covey of the time he delegated the care of their lawn to one of his children (I'm certain to mess up the story). The lawn got to looking quite awful due to neglect, but Dr. Covey respected the delegation of authority and did not go out and water, cut, or fertilize the lawn, but instead worked with his son in a constructive way to get him to recognize that he wasn't doing a great job and to up his game. I suppose God deals with us in much the same way.
At least that's the way I see it. 🙂
Jesus later did say to not fix the church withing he stsrted all over with joseph smith right so interesting that sometimes he says go to the prests...aka fix from within....but other times has flat outbscraped the whole thing and started over. Hard to know what he wants now. We have prophets who teach a lot of good and give good talks but there is also a lot of weirdness going on and i wonder fhe value of staying here and wonder if god will scrap this one too
Thank you for these 2 musings. I recently went through these same thoughts and came to the same conclusions although I did have a brief period where I was more critical and negative about the Church. I didn't like the feeling I had during that brief period, I could feel the Spirit wasn't as strongly with me.
Connor just read the comments here is what you're teaching edifying and uplifting and inviting the spirit or is it bringing out anti Mormon comments. I believe this is causing more harm than good.
I've said it many times. If I did an LDS-related RUclips channel and I realized one day the majority of my viewers were critics of the prophets and the Church, and they were agreeing with me and my content more often than not, that would give me pause to reconsider some things. But not Boyack. The guy doesn't skip a beat.
Connor.....for the most part, you really don't know what you are talking about. You're wrong a lot when it comes to church history.
Please cite your sources on the items you feel Connor has gotten wrong.
Look through the comments on this video or other "musings." The majority are by those who have left the Church or are on their way out, and agreeing with or praising what is said. What does that tell you about Boyack and his content?
I do agree with your logic but I'm not sure I agree with all four of your false doctrines. 😊
Do you mean by that that you think those doctrines are not false? Your statement is a bit unclear to me.
Correct, I'm not a polygamy denier.
I'm blocking the 2nd video on this topic because the 1st video was just like anti-
This is cult behavior
Every time I watch this guy I realize he’s a polygamy denier and he immediately loses all credibility
How to reconcile D&C 132:38 and Jacob 2:24?
LOL! You still think that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy?? 🤣
Sorry, but at this point, with the mountains of evidence that Joseph never practiced it, and nothing but the word of a lying, corrupt church saying that he ever did, there's no other way to respond, but to laugh.
Why is this your cut off? I think Joseph was involved, however this is a silly single issue to put all the weight on.
@@tinkeringengr some wives or concubines they took which God did not give them. For instance Solomon started marrying pagan worshipers which God clearly did not approve of. But in 2nd Samuel the prophet Nathan gave David wives under Gods direction so that was totally okay
@@Telavian when something which has been proven time and time again and someone just doesn’t believe it then they lose massive amounts of credibility. I also don’t think Brigham Young taught any false doctrines like Connor does