Richard, I'm in complete agreement with you on the intake system limiting/reducing the power numbers. I pay a lot of attention to firing sequences, as opposed to firing orders. One of the problems with the Ford 1,3... firing order is that cylinders 2,6, and 5, all hit the intake manifold consecutively. On a dual plane manifold, this isn't such a problem as the separated plenum isolates/protects the cylinders from charge robbing during the intake stroke to some degree. On a single plane manifold, the larger plenum also helps the situation. On the efi manifolds however, the front part of the manifold is in an extreme demand situation compared with the rear part, as these 3 cylinder runners are side by side in the plenum. My personal opinion is that the front part of the plenum needs to be at least 1 cylinder volume larger in capacity than the rear. I would also suggest that in a dual tunnel ram set-up, there may be an advantage in having a larger carburettor on the front, and/or a larger plenum volume in that area. Unfortunately, I no longer have easy access to a dyno to do testing with, so my theories remain just theories. What's your thoughts? Great video. Regards Greg
This theory works only work in a situation like the Holley hi ram with a front inlet. The standard Ford EFI intake manifolds are all side mounted and air hits the chambers more evenly.
One thing's for sure. Older architecture O.E. blocks are very unstable compared to 6 bolt main, deep skirt blocks of today. Induction design very important as to engine purpose as you and Engine Masters have shown frequently.
I wish Holley would make low and mid ram intake manifolds for SBF's to go along with their high ram for guys who dont want to modify their stock hoods. Looks like it would work with the side feed lid or front feed if running a crank trigger (no distributor cap) ignition.
Richard, I totally agree the BB Windsor was very low on NA power. For comparison, my 347 with AFR 185s, Holley Systemax intake, 70mm TB, shorty 1 5/8 shorties and custom cam, .600/.595, 227/231 with 112 LSA made more power. Holley Terminator X manages the important stuff. It made over 400 RW horses and 370 lb/ft. Something was definitely amiss on the BB motor.
Agree. I'm sure Richard did a compression test and everything checked out. I really think the efi intake really hurt that combination. Too bad they didn't throw a supervictor or even a RPM airgap on the BB motor.
Could be the AFR 185 heads you got were Part # AFR 1351 instead of AFR 1341. The 1351 has a slightly bigger intake valve, they have 2.021 valves, or something similar. The 1341 intake valves are 1.901, or something similar and are for stock pistons. This is my guess of why you had to shave the piston. Great content!
The camshafts are pretty close in timing to one another. I think the camshaft shouldn't be the main reason for the lack of power. What about the compression ration between the AFR and Edelbrock heads used in the test, how much of a difference is there? The original strength test was very interesting! I wonder are we at the similar level of weakness on sbc bottom end under boost?
Funny, just before you mentioned it, I was thinking that you might want to try the Holley high ram next time instead now that it is available. I think that would be the better choice, other than going to something like a carbureted intake that is converted to efi with an elbow, for sticking with an ego and getting the best numbers from it. The later choice would definitely kill some low end if you did it with something like a Super Victor single plane, but that adds extra cost and complication to it since it’s not an off the shelf choice.
I think you're on the right track. I'd take a look at listed flow numbers for the EFI intake manifolds and go with the highest flowing one you can find. The carb manifolds always seem to outflow the EFI manifolds by about 50cfm at the top. Short of that maybe have an EFI manifold ported to get the best you can out of it. If the fueling and timing are spot on, the next step is air management. Ruling out the heads leave the only 2 items left in the equation can and manifold. It is worth noting, 1 7/8" headers would probably be preferred here over the 1 3/4" you have.
I think it was the combination of parts but the intake was probably the biggest choke. Even a mild 351w picks up a lot with shorter runners. I remember when that intake came out and Muscle Mustangs swapped out a gt40/box for that intake on project white trash and it lost considerable power. Trick flow then sent them some twisted wedges to replace the gt40x’s because they said that intake was designed for them 😂 but really it was just the long runners. The final result was it made about the same power as before with the superior heads and cobra r intake.
I don't know why anyone would run a 75mm throttle body "R" on a 351w anyway? They make a 90mm version. Other videos on youtube have shown a noticeable increase in power with a larger throttle body. That engine was being choked. The "Box-R" Trick Flow intake w/90mm would be an even better option than the standard "R" intake.
I have a very experienced forum buddy, Steve from a company in Lebanon, IL. He has used the Trick Flow R upper and lower, on customer cars and has been quite disappointed with its out of the box flow. As it came, either 5.0 or 5.8 liter, it requires a few minutes die grinder and linishing work radiusing the lower to upper and that helps some. Hard edge Square section holes don't seem to show good HP returns you might expect. The rest might be a poor cam lobe centerline choice. Maybee those two factors are 410 hp at 5800 rpm. Importantly, I notice your quoted figures on the big bang engine is revised down and different 4 to 1 HP from your 2014 article.
Would love to see a gen 2 LT1 big bang test. The Trickflow head and cam package would be nice to see, or some big AFR heads and a COMP cam, or a ported stock head package and cam from Lloyd Elliot of Elliot Port Works or from Advanced Induction.
Intake runner length versus cam timing. I bet you're getting the intended resonance at an RPM the cam profile isn't set up for producing more power, so when the cam is in the meat of it's curve the runners are basically stepping on themselves and being restrictive. Also did I see a LOT of metal hogged out of those pistons for clearance? How much compression did you lose to that?
Hi Richard! Nice analysis. Yup, you can't beat a 750 Holley on a good manifold! I was also wondering about the cams, and the cylinder pressures that each cam achieved. Perhaps the AFR headed big bang engine wasn't developing as much cylinder pressure as the other motor, due to the cam?
@Kids Teach! okay I see what you're trying to say you're comparing two different camshaft profiles got it, and you realize the engine uses only one camshaft
@@BuzzLOLOL I agree on Windsor heads. They were so doggy . I did a 69 Torino with the 351W and it was smoke off a turd. The bearings are so skinny and 3 inches. A 350 Pontiac would walk it. A 4.123x 3.98 FE at 425 ci stock crank from a 410 with C cam and main bearings. The solid Lunati .553 lift, 242/254 108 was 555 lbs ft and 583 hp, a Holley SD single plane with my home port job. I wanted to put a pair of moderate turbos at 8 lbs on each bank. I think it would have hit 750 and held together. An offset grind on a 3.79 stroke to 3.98 would have been great!
I have a 3310 from an L-78 396 it has down leg boosters and the little vanes in the Venturi and the metering blocks in the rear. I put a set of jet extensions in there and milled the choke horn off. I also put an 85 power valve in it and it hits the torque like it has boost. I really like it.
I have been waiting for your redo on this one since you admittedly caused the first 351W to say, "I've had enough with this throttle action." Lol😅. Can't wait!!!
Love your videos, wondering if you could do a true other guys motor, a 4.7 Mopar v8, would likee to see if you could build a NA motor and also see a boosted version. Have not seen many builds or performance parts for these under dogs, would love to see what you could do.
I ran a 90s model 351w roller block, nice heads, E303 cam, blow through 8:5:1 comp. good rods, pistons, main stud girdle with a t4 pt 74mm turbo, air to air, that made about 700 wheel at about 15 lbs of boost on pump 93 that lived a couple of years with a manaul 6 speed transmission, when I swapped for a c4 auto trans the engine spent a lot more time above 5k rpm and thats when the block split through the mains after a few months. When I took apart the engine all the main caps along with the stud girdle had shadowing marks from moving around. luckily it didn’t destroy itself when it split, all that happened was it lost oil pressure. Then I swapped a 1970 351w block with the same combo that never came apart. Now I run all LSX stuff and its like cheating compared to production SBF blocks.
Could you flow bench each upper manifold? I wonder if you stick a borescope in to each of those EFI manifolds, if you can see some roughness or narrowing on one that isn't on the other? Those folded EFI intakes always looked terrible for flow. Now you've confirmed it.
351W BB motor. Test the bigger cam with the bigger AFR heads and use the dual plane air-gap with carb vs throttle body EFI (Terminator or Sniper), then switch to a single plane Victor Jr with port EFI. You can use the Holley ECU or the ProFlo4. IMHO, the bigger heads will carry the cam 500+ rpm past the expected cam limit. The port EFI will also help the peak HP. I like a 408 with 215-225 heads and a 240 @ .050 HR cam. Test away.
351w - Some of us with hood clearance issues are forced to use the Torker II intake on our 408s. I would like to see a Torker II VS dual plane air gap vs Victor Jr. comparison. Please add this to your "things to do" list.
I think the problem is you had the southern hemisphere version of the EFI manifold; you need the correct northern hemisphere one so the air swirls the correct way. Either that or dyno in Brazil
Yes to high ram big bang with lots of camshaft. The tfs intake 351 was pretty sad. do dual quad bt tunnel Hi-ram with the cxr👯♀️ and join dual carb bonnets with a plenum in between
Those "R" manifolds seem to neck down on the head side,im assuming to prevent "hitting" the intake port on a smaller head. I had to port mine alot to get it to match up to a CNC old school TFS Twisted Wedge head (205cc). Not sure how much that could hurt it,i would fingure 20hp,but a 51hp loss is alot.
I watched the old video and you had a plan then ..... Different intake manifold is probably a good idea .... You really need to run better boost control on some of this stuff but you know that already .... I think the real problem was the valve relief weakened the ring land you did not have a lot of photos so just kinda a wild guess on my part ..... Since we know at this point what boost does to power how about showing a rising boost curve on the redo
I believe the runners on the TFS intake are too long. This intake for the 302 is the about the same length as the stock 302 intake. When using the 351 lower it is then one inch longer on a larger engine. The few dyno sheets I can find on this intake show the peak HP around 5500 rpm and I have similar results on my engine. I have purchased the box R upper intake and will try it later this year.
Whats weird to me is that the big bang engine was down everywhere, although it did get worse at rpm. I think baseline na testing would he required here. The other question is obviously turbo manifolds for the exhaust.
Changing the subject, well, sort of, I've watched the videos where you went through different stages with the 351C, however I don't recall you starting with a 351C 2V. Which I have. Looking to make wallet friendly upgrades, and possible move up in the future. It is in a 73 Mach 1 Mustang I cruise with, going to shows and stuff. Is there any more power to be had with the 2V set up? Is there a cam that could help with the 2V carb and 2V open chamber heads? I seen mentioned that the 268H cam could be a good choice. I know Edelbrock has made a 4v intake that would fit 2V heads in the past, not sure if it is available anymore. I also know there are some racing classes on oval that require using a 2V carb. Would like to go with a top end kit at some point. Suggestions? My goal is a good performing street package that would still be capable of double digit fuel mileage while still being fun to drive. Oh, and 4V closed chamber heads are becoming hard to find too.
Could this be a deck height issues doesn't the 351w come in either a 9.5 or 9.4. The 9.5 could have been down on compression because of that? (NA issue)
Yeah, it's an apples to oranges comparison with the different cams and induction setup's. One thing you mentioned.....you never know what kind of treatment or abuse a salvage yard motor has been subjected to. If the big bang motor was seriously overheated any time in it's life, then most likely, the ring seal has been compromised or reduced, and that could also be a contributing factor for the lower power output compared to the other motor.
do you know if any of he clevelands ever came out with a roller cam from the factory? also have you or will you a junk yard build with a Cleveland please?
I dyno tested a 75mm tb vs a 100mm tb on a 365ci SBF: ruclips.net/video/c-RqsPv4aa4/видео.html That and the intake (as Richard says) are this biggest HP killers. FWIW, the car in the TB dyno test had a 228/242 cam in it. The intake on that car started out as a Trickflow Street EFI, but has over 11 lbs of aluminum cut out of it (which is why it only says "Trick" on the top) and the runners are ported as much as they can be without breaking through. I still think a Box R r even a single plane would show more power.
Richard im currently running a stroker windsor to 393 w/twin 88mm turbos and using the holly high ram intake system w/the holly sniper system i just got it running so i cant give you any data as of yet i had a hood clearance problem with the top piece that comes with the high ram so i cnc cut a 3/8 aluminum plate to fit the sniper throttle body . i havent run the motor a whole bunch as of yet due to im still fabricating stuff for the car . something i found its doing and not sure why its doing it is if i stab the throttle the engine just dies out like rt now but starts rt back up but if i bring the rpms up gradually it revs and starts to build boost ok . do you have any ideas what might be the cause ? i still need to play with the tune yet im hoping thats all it is im new to building a turbo car with EFI . also one other question i have noticed the left bank is puffing out oil smoke and ihave herd that if your using a HV oil pump is a no no for a turbo motor but not knowing when i built the motor thats what i put in it . can i use a oil restrictor in the main line to slow the flow ? or get a regulator ? what would be your recommendation ? thanks buddy i appreciate your expertise imput Bill in nor NV.
Just wondering was the junk yard engine mag checked for cracks if there was a Crack in the main valley could it cause vacuum issues causing the lower H.P.
@Richard Holdener Sorry sir I shortened the term Magnufuxing the engine we had one that had a Crack down the mainvalley into the cylinder that I didn't see and when heated up it had weird vacuum reading and shockingly enough it didn't even over heat or give any symptoms. Just an idea. Thanks for all your vids I learn alot.
Any chance of a test of the big AFR gen III hemi heads on either a 5.7 or bigger gen III hemi? They flow a ton, like 390 cfm, and, to me, seem like the new version of Cleveland 4V heads...completely different of course, but big valve, big flow #'s for a 5.7-6.0 motor.
None of us use the AFR heads for our Hemi’s. We all have them ported by MMX, TSP, or Thitek heads. Typically MMX is used, and most go with around 370-400CFM, big valves, & upgraded valve train.
@@kidsteach938. Be fun to see! Just remember, the stock Eagle heads flow on average 300CFM, and the Apache heads around 330CFM. Great heads out of the factory. Also, a lot of guys like porting the Eagle heads over the 6.4l Apache heads for better port velocity along with compression.
If you're blaming the torque on the 351W blowup it was 200 odd less than your LS big bangs wasn't it ? All those Ford EFI manifolds must all be too long in the runners for revving up. Run that 351 base manifold without the top bolted on 😬
Good work Richard. I’m trying to learn more with my roller 351w. My current setup isn’t optimal at all. I have a mild ported lightning lower, gt40 tubular, ported trickflow 170s(very old), trickflow stage 1 cam. Car seems to run out of steam around 5400 rpm.
I'll be surprised if it's still making power at 5400 and hasn't started to drop. The camshaft is rated up to 5500 rpm in a 302. The extra 49 cubes will shift the curve down 4-500 rpm. Also unsure how far the long runner intake will flow at high rpm as it's fighting the pressure in the manifold. I'm not a Windsor man so I can't clarify but the extra cubes is a given due to the added volume of toning down a camshaft. I'd try retarding the camshaft a few degrees. If this helps it breathe more up top I'd be increasing the duration. If it loses down low and doesn't improve up top I'd be looking at manifold.
That all sounds like a mild daily driver setup. If you're looking for more a Street\Strip combo- I'd replace the intake, cam and heads. GT40's are good torque intakes on a 351, and same for the rest of your combo - but you may be happier with an Edelbrock Super Victor EFI Intake\TB, AFR 205's and a Trick Flow Stage 3 cam. :)
@@cgarris8674 @C Garris the non ported newer 170s flow 250 or so CFM with the trick flows so the ported ones should be very close. Being ported there's a good chance they're closer to 180-190 CC volume depending on how far they went. The velocity would be great on the street and I thought with that flow they won't be holding it back more so the baby bump stick and manifold. When Richy tested as cast 170/190 heads on his sbf stroker 363 it made 510 with 170's and 528 with 195's. With a long runner manifold and the small cam I'd be surprised if he's making over 330hp at the moment. With the cost of upgrading heads I'd be looking for a larger cam and better intake manifold. Even a nice rpm air gap with injector bosses and a 4 barrel throttle body I think would wake it the hell up.
351's need to breathe. That intake sure looks like money, but it chokes anything bigger than a 302. Need more intake runner and cam for sure. I bet it has awesome snap at 2500rpm right now.
The efi stuff is no good for na power.. carbs make power. Plus the lobe sep was better on the carbed 351w also. Just those 2 thinks will make up the power difference.
Maybe like you said, the induction system may not be well matched with the heads. I know the 351s tend to be really sensitive with induction tuning, that shortside turn is really finicky on stock-ish heads.
Hi Richard - if you end up using a cutter on the pistons to fit a big valve head again, it'd be interesting to know what they all weigh after the Big Bang! 😆I've been tempted to do that a time or two on Junk Yard builds, but never had the courage to do it. A friend always jokes that he's "sure they're within + or - a half gram", when he does it. LOL
They were stock and I highly doubt that well balanced from the factory. Reducing piston weight from a balanced combo is safer than adding. I've swapped pistons out for ones over 50 gram lighter w/o re-balancing but it was only a 420ish combo.
@@richardholdener1727 A small imbalance at 1000 RPM becomes a huge imbalance at 8,000 RPM. An imbalance of only a few ounces can generate a force of over 200 lbs. at 8,000 RPM! That’s a lot of shaking and stress on the engine’s bottom end. But, for a Big Bang engine probably not a concern. Keep up the good work, Love this stuff!
@@BOOT That's a good question! A good windage tray, crank scraper or dry sump may help.A few extra grams also needs to be added to compensate for oil in the bearings and clinging to the parts. The total mass you end up with is what the counterweights have to equal to balance the engine.
1994 and up roller blocks are knocked for being weaker, but yeah, while that intake design copies the Saleen $1,000 intake design, it's still a long runner design and back in the day, most went for the short runner "breadbox" designs that killed torque down low for above 4,500 rpm performance out of the 302. would be interesting to run one here to find out how much the housewives' theories were true. and an infrared gun scan of intake manifold heat would be interesting--is that long runner huge surface intake really soaking up the heat post intercooler or not?
no on the runners soaking up heat and the box upper intakes lose a lot through most of the curve and the TFS R is not a copy of the Saleen (the closer match to that would be Holley SysteMax)
@@richardholdener1727 interesting on the first, since you once claimed in your book that the shape and size of the classic 5.0 intake made it a heat soak. so what does TFS do different? Meanwhile, i wonder if a short runner intake like say Edelbrock's Victor EFI (i would say the Power Products version but i know there's a ton of casting flash and port matching to be done) would be the middle ground between the old breadbox and the classic long runner?
3in diameter main Journal is for work in a truck it is not high performance and that is the weak Link in the 351 Windsor I've had five in my truck and everytime I throw the crank out
Always wondered about the 351w BB test you performed - I typically wouldn’t do it Richard, but I feel you are totally responsible for that fiasco - proper preparation prevents pi… yeah you know. Go get you a couple sets of wastegate springs, you KNOW a 351w is going 4 digits.
Not all dyno setups are the same. And, the more power you make the more heat it generates. Some could probably only run a few minutes at full load. Others could run till the engine physically wears out before they’d overheat.
10:03 I thought the trickflow R was the better option over the Trickflow box for my street turbo setup because I try and keep it under 6200 rpms, maybe I had the wrong intake on my mind for an upgrade. I was worried about losing daily driver torque under and near my 3k stall.
@@hondatech5000 I don’t own either sir. I had it on my list I was considering buying. Can’t even find the box intakes now with trickflow and their “foundry” issues. Many of their aluminum heads are hard to come by too
@@hondatech5000 with the trickflow box intake no longer being made currently and my throttle body setup it appears I’m stuck with what I have. I should have planned ahead but it was just so damn expensive
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Richard, I'm in complete agreement with you on the intake system limiting/reducing the power numbers. I pay a lot of attention to firing sequences, as opposed to firing orders. One of the problems with the Ford 1,3... firing order is that cylinders 2,6, and 5, all hit the intake manifold consecutively. On a dual plane manifold, this isn't such a problem as the separated plenum isolates/protects the cylinders from charge robbing during the intake stroke to some degree. On a single plane manifold, the larger plenum also helps the situation. On the efi manifolds however, the front part of the manifold is in an extreme demand situation compared with the rear part, as these 3 cylinder runners are side by side in the plenum. My personal opinion is that the front part of the plenum needs to be at least 1 cylinder volume larger in capacity than the rear. I would also suggest that in a dual tunnel ram set-up, there may be an advantage in having a larger carburettor on the front, and/or a larger plenum volume in that area. Unfortunately, I no longer have easy access to a dyno to do testing with, so my theories remain just theories. What's your thoughts? Great video. Regards Greg
Front as opposed to rear ?? 4 and 8 fire 90 degrees apart.
Richard isn't into plenum volume.
He also isn’t into rpm.
Boo.
This theory works only work in a situation like the Holley hi ram with a front inlet. The standard Ford EFI intake manifolds are all side mounted and air hits the chambers more evenly.
One thing's for sure. Older architecture O.E. blocks are very unstable compared to 6 bolt main, deep skirt blocks of today. Induction design very important as to engine purpose as you and Engine Masters have shown frequently.
Id really like to see what the High Ram manifold does!
I would like to see a big bang 460 video
I wish Holley would make low and mid ram intake manifolds for SBF's to go along with their high ram for guys who dont want to modify their stock hoods. Looks like it would work with the side feed lid or front feed if running a crank trigger (no distributor cap) ignition.
Richard, I totally agree the BB Windsor was very low on NA power. For comparison, my 347 with AFR 185s, Holley Systemax intake, 70mm TB, shorty 1 5/8 shorties and custom cam, .600/.595, 227/231 with 112 LSA made more power. Holley Terminator X manages the important stuff. It made over 400 RW horses and 370 lb/ft. Something was definitely amiss on the BB motor.
Agree. I'm sure Richard did a compression test and everything checked out. I really think the efi intake really hurt that combination. Too bad they didn't throw a supervictor or even a RPM airgap on the BB motor.
Could be the AFR 185 heads you got were Part # AFR 1351 instead of AFR 1341. The 1351 has a slightly bigger intake valve, they have 2.021 valves, or something similar. The 1341 intake valves are 1.901, or something similar and are for stock pistons. This is my guess of why you had to shave the piston. Great content!
Any plans to mess with a dodge 4.7l magnum? Its not a very popular motor, but it would be cool for someone to do a high quality video on one.
The camshafts are pretty close in timing to one another. I think the camshaft shouldn't be the main reason for the lack of power. What about the compression ration between the AFR and Edelbrock heads used in the test, how much of a difference is there? The original strength test was very interesting! I wonder are we at the similar level of weakness on sbc bottom end under boost?
Funny, just before you mentioned it, I was thinking that you might want to try the Holley high ram next time instead now that it is available. I think that would be the better choice, other than going to something like a carbureted intake that is converted to efi with an elbow, for sticking with an ego and getting the best numbers from it. The later choice would definitely kill some low end if you did it with something like a Super Victor single plane, but that adds extra cost and complication to it since it’s not an off the shelf choice.
I'm with you on the EFI intake.
I think you're on the right track.
I'd take a look at listed flow numbers for the EFI intake manifolds and go with the highest flowing one you can find. The carb manifolds always seem to outflow the EFI manifolds by about 50cfm at the top.
Short of that maybe have an EFI manifold ported to get the best you can out of it. If the fueling and timing are spot on, the next step is air management. Ruling out the heads leave the only 2 items left in the equation can and manifold.
It is worth noting, 1 7/8" headers would probably be preferred here over the 1 3/4" you have.
I think it was the combination of parts but the intake was probably the biggest choke. Even a mild 351w picks up a lot with shorter runners. I remember when that intake came out and Muscle Mustangs swapped out a gt40/box for that intake on project white trash and it lost considerable power. Trick flow then sent them some twisted wedges to replace the gt40x’s because they said that intake was designed for them 😂 but really it was just the long runners. The final result was it made about the same power as before with the superior heads and cobra r intake.
I don't know why anyone would run a 75mm throttle body "R" on a 351w anyway? They make a 90mm version. Other videos on youtube have shown a noticeable increase in power with a larger throttle body. That engine was being choked. The "Box-R" Trick Flow intake w/90mm would be an even better option than the standard "R" intake.
I don't think they made a 90-mm TFS R upper when this test was done
I have a very experienced forum buddy, Steve from a company in Lebanon, IL. He has used the Trick Flow R upper and lower, on customer cars and has been quite disappointed with its out of the box flow. As it came, either 5.0 or 5.8 liter, it requires a few minutes die grinder and linishing work radiusing the lower to upper and that helps some. Hard edge Square section holes don't seem to show good HP returns you might expect. The rest might be a poor cam lobe centerline choice. Maybee those two factors are 410 hp at 5800 rpm. Importantly, I notice your quoted figures on the big bang engine is revised down and different 4 to 1 HP from your 2014 article.
Would love to see a gen 2 LT1 big bang test. The Trickflow head and cam package would be nice to see, or some big AFR heads and a COMP cam, or a ported stock head package and cam from Lloyd Elliot of Elliot Port Works or from Advanced Induction.
@@BuzzLOLOL sure. He's gotta come to Michigan to get it. Nice 185k "seasoned" block.
Camshaft, intake, and throttle body in my opinion. Please do the High Ram! I’ve been waiting for it!
The 351w is a favorite of mine. Looking forward to seeing one on the pump!
Junk
Intake runner length versus cam timing. I bet you're getting the intended resonance at an RPM the cam profile isn't set up for producing more power, so when the cam is in the meat of it's curve the runners are basically stepping on themselves and being restrictive.
Also did I see a LOT of metal hogged out of those pistons for clearance? How much compression did you lose to that?
Hi Richard! Nice analysis. Yup, you can't beat a 750 Holley on a good manifold! I was also wondering about the cams, and the cylinder pressures that each cam achieved. Perhaps the AFR headed big bang engine wasn't developing as much cylinder pressure as the other motor, due to the cam?
One Camshaft.
@@kskip4242 sure, but two cams, because the AFR headed engine had a different camshaft than the Edlebrock headed engine.
@Kids Teach! okay I see what you're trying to say you're comparing two different camshaft profiles got it, and you realize the engine uses only one camshaft
@@BuzzLOLOL I agree on Windsor heads. They were so doggy . I did a 69 Torino with the 351W and it was smoke off a turd. The bearings are so skinny and 3 inches. A 350 Pontiac would walk it. A 4.123x 3.98 FE at 425 ci stock crank from a 410 with C cam and main bearings. The solid Lunati .553 lift, 242/254 108 was 555 lbs ft and 583 hp, a Holley SD single plane with my home port job. I wanted to put a pair of moderate turbos at 8 lbs on each bank. I think it would have hit 750 and held together. An offset grind on a 3.79 stroke to 3.98 would have been great!
I have a 3310 from an L-78 396 it has down leg boosters and the little vanes in the Venturi and the metering blocks in the rear. I put a set of jet extensions in there and milled the choke horn off. I also put an 85 power valve in it and it hits the torque like it has boost. I really like it.
Glad you and i revisited this as 1st failure. Thanks
I have been waiting for your redo on this one since you admittedly caused the first 351W to say, "I've had enough with this throttle action." Lol😅. Can't wait!!!
Love your videos, wondering if you could do a true other guys motor, a 4.7 Mopar v8, would likee to see if you could build a NA motor and also see a boosted version. Have not seen many builds or performance parts for these under dogs, would love to see what you could do.
I ran a 90s model 351w roller block, nice heads, E303 cam, blow through 8:5:1 comp. good rods, pistons, main stud girdle with a t4 pt 74mm turbo, air to air, that made about 700 wheel at about 15 lbs of boost on pump 93 that lived a couple of years with a manaul 6 speed transmission, when I swapped for a c4 auto trans the engine spent a lot more time above 5k rpm and thats when the block split through the mains after a few months.
When I took apart the engine all the main caps along with the stud girdle had shadowing marks from moving around. luckily it didn’t destroy itself when it split, all that happened was it lost oil pressure.
Then I swapped a 1970 351w block with the same combo that never came apart.
Now I run all LSX stuff and its like cheating compared to production SBF blocks.
you didn't hurt the block from lack of strength at 700 wheel hp
Everyone has their own opinions Richard.
Could you flow bench each upper manifold? I wonder if you stick a borescope in to each of those EFI manifolds, if you can see some roughness or narrowing on one that isn't on the other?
Those folded EFI intakes always looked terrible for flow. Now you've confirmed it.
it is not roughness
351W BB motor. Test the bigger cam with the bigger AFR heads and use the dual plane air-gap with carb vs throttle body EFI (Terminator or Sniper), then switch to a single plane Victor Jr with port EFI. You can use the Holley ECU or the ProFlo4. IMHO, the bigger heads will carry the cam 500+ rpm past the expected cam limit. The port EFI will also help the peak HP. I like a 408 with 215-225 heads and a 240 @ .050 HR cam. Test away.
port efi won't help peak power-it will hurt it
Definitely need to redo the 351 big bang. It was a great video but we still have questions we need answers!
351w - Some of us with hood clearance issues are forced to use the Torker II intake on our 408s. I would like to see a Torker II VS dual plane air gap vs Victor Jr. comparison. Please add this to your "things to do" list.
I have tested those on sbf-torker 2 was not good
Richard you should set up an electronic boost controller so you can bring boost in later in the rpm range
I think the problem is you had the southern hemisphere version of the EFI manifold; you need the correct northern hemisphere one so the air swirls the correct way. Either that or dyno in Brazil
Excited to see ford big bangs planned, just sad it's not modular stuff
Yes to high ram big bang with lots of camshaft. The tfs intake 351 was pretty sad.
do dual quad bt tunnel Hi-ram with the cxr👯♀️ and join dual carb bonnets with a plenum in between
Maybe you could try a carburetor style EFI manifold like the single plane intake that comes with the edelbrock Pro Flo 4
Those "R" manifolds seem to neck down on the head side,im assuming to prevent "hitting" the intake port on a smaller head. I had to port mine alot to get it to match up to a CNC old school TFS Twisted Wedge head (205cc). Not sure how much that could hurt it,i would fingure 20hp,but a 51hp loss is alot.
I watched the old video and you had a plan then ..... Different intake manifold is probably a good idea .... You really need to run better boost control on some of this stuff but you know that already .... I think the real problem was the valve relief weakened the ring land you did not have a lot of photos so just kinda a wild guess on my part ..... Since we know at this point what boost does to power how about showing a rising boost curve on the redo
I believe the runners on the TFS intake are too long. This intake for the 302 is the about the same length as the stock 302 intake. When using the 351 lower it is then one inch longer on a larger engine. The few dyno sheets I can find on this intake show the peak HP around 5500 rpm and I have similar results on my engine. I have purchased the box R upper intake and will try it later this year.
Whats weird to me is that the big bang engine was down everywhere, although it did get worse at rpm. I think baseline na testing would he required here.
The other question is obviously turbo manifolds for the exhaust.
351w BB v2.0 incoming???….would be sweet to revisit it with real boost control 😂
A thousand horsepower on a stock block 351 🐐.
The size of the runners 185 vs 205
185 more velocity and less flow at max could help in combination with the bigger more duration cam
Those 185 edelbrock heads flow air faster than the afr. The afr 195 are better on a small motor
Changing the subject, well, sort of, I've watched the videos where you went through different stages with the 351C, however I don't recall you starting with a 351C 2V. Which I have. Looking to make wallet friendly upgrades, and possible move up in the future. It is in a 73 Mach 1 Mustang I cruise with, going to shows and stuff. Is there any more power to be had with the 2V set up? Is there a cam that could help with the 2V carb and 2V open chamber heads? I seen mentioned that the 268H cam could be a good choice. I know Edelbrock has made a 4v intake that would fit 2V heads in the past, not sure if it is available anymore. I also know there are some racing classes on oval that require using a 2V carb. Would like to go with a top end kit at some point. Suggestions? My goal is a good performing street package that would still be capable of double digit fuel mileage while still being fun to drive. Oh, and 4V closed chamber heads are becoming hard to find too.
A pair of 302 Cleveland heads are the go, small 2V ports plus closed chambers.
@@craigjones2878 I've read about those, but where to find them unless I find a seller in Australia?
@@aguyinnc2865 they are easy to find and are cheap in OZ but shipping costs to the US would be prohibitive.
I love these types of videos.😊
That rod looks like the PEP rod we have broken several times in a NA motor.Stopped using them years back. 🤔 Power increase due to manifolds my guess.
Could this be a deck height issues doesn't the 351w come in either a 9.5 or 9.4. The 9.5 could have been down on compression because of that? (NA issue)
Less than .05 between them. Maybe you're thinking of the 9.2 aftermarket Boss blocks being smaller.
Yeah, it's an apples to oranges comparison with the different cams and induction setup's.
One thing you mentioned.....you never know what kind of treatment or abuse a salvage yard motor has been subjected to. If the big bang motor was seriously overheated any time in it's life, then most likely, the ring seal has been compromised or reduced, and that could also be a contributing factor for the lower power output compared to the other motor.
I think the match is much better matched in flow speed cooefidecent. And the Edelbrock hits the crossover on the valve.
If you could get hands on such things a big bang fr9 would be sick. Or build something with d3 heads or c3
do you know if any of he clevelands ever came out with a roller cam from the factory? also have you or will you a junk yard build with a Cleveland please?
no factory roller clevelands-and don't really find them in yards any more
It's not main bearings, they're huge for a >400 C/U engine.
Richard can you also run it carburated with a victor jr intake and 205 afr renegade heads
I dyno tested a 75mm tb vs a 100mm tb on a 365ci SBF: ruclips.net/video/c-RqsPv4aa4/видео.html That and the intake (as Richard says) are this biggest HP killers. FWIW, the car in the TB dyno test had a 228/242 cam in it. The intake on that car started out as a Trickflow Street EFI, but has over 11 lbs of aluminum cut out of it (which is why it only says "Trick" on the top) and the runners are ported as much as they can be without breaking through. I still think a Box R r even a single plane would show more power.
Richard im currently running a stroker windsor to 393 w/twin 88mm turbos and using the holly high ram intake system w/the holly sniper system i just got it running so i cant give you any data as of yet i had a hood clearance problem with the top piece that comes with the high ram so i cnc cut a 3/8 aluminum plate to fit the sniper throttle body . i havent run the motor a whole bunch as of yet due to im still fabricating stuff for the car . something i found its doing and not sure why its doing it is if i stab the throttle the engine just dies out like rt now but starts rt back up but if i bring the rpms up gradually it revs and starts to build boost ok . do you have any ideas what might be the cause ? i still need to play with the tune yet im hoping thats all it is im new to building a turbo car with EFI . also one other question i have noticed the left bank is puffing out oil smoke and ihave herd that if your using a HV oil pump is a no no for a turbo motor but not knowing when i built the motor thats what i put in it . can i use a oil restrictor in the main line to slow the flow ? or get a regulator ? what would be your recommendation ? thanks buddy i appreciate your expertise imput Bill in nor NV.
it is tune-why twin 88s?
@@richardholdener1727 no particular reason but as i recall i got a good deal on them . whats your thoughts on it puffing oil out of the turbos
Just wondering was the junk yard engine mag checked for cracks if there was a Crack in the main valley could it cause vacuum issues causing the lower H.P.
mag checked? no sir-it was just run
@Richard Holdener Sorry sir I shortened the term Magnufuxing the engine we had one that had a Crack down the mainvalley into the cylinder that I didn't see and when heated up it had weird vacuum reading and shockingly enough it didn't even over heat or give any symptoms. Just an idea. Thanks for all your vids I learn alot.
Any chance of a test of the big AFR gen III hemi heads on either a 5.7 or bigger gen III hemi? They flow a ton, like 390 cfm, and, to me, seem like the new version of Cleveland 4V heads...completely different of course, but big valve, big flow #'s for a 5.7-6.0 motor.
None of us use the AFR heads for our Hemi’s. We all have them ported by MMX, TSP, or Thitek heads. Typically MMX is used, and most go with around 370-400CFM, big valves, & upgraded valve train.
@@bri-manhunter2654 Thanks for the info! Would love to see Richard do a back to back with these ported, big valve heads.
@@kidsteach938. Be fun to see! Just remember, the stock Eagle heads flow on average 300CFM, and the Apache heads around 330CFM. Great heads out of the factory.
Also, a lot of guys like porting the Eagle heads over the 6.4l Apache heads for better port velocity along with compression.
I would say the intake. That style of EFI intakes have long intake runners
Cant wait!
What is the story with the pistons at 4:11 in the video? Is that just a stock photo, or did you really just hog out the piston with a carbide cutter?
yes on the carbide cutter piston
How about a TF single plane intake with multi port fuel injection.
If you're blaming the torque on the 351W blowup it was 200 odd less than your LS big bangs wasn't it ?
All those Ford EFI manifolds must all be too long in the runners for revving up.
Run that 351 base manifold without the top bolted on 😬
Ford never put an EFI 351W in anything but trucks and a one-off Mustang, so they're tuned for low end grunt stock.
Good work Richard. I’m trying to learn more with my roller 351w. My current setup isn’t optimal at all. I have a mild ported lightning lower, gt40 tubular, ported trickflow 170s(very old), trickflow stage 1 cam. Car seems to run out of steam around 5400 rpm.
I'll be surprised if it's still making power at 5400 and hasn't started to drop. The camshaft is rated up to 5500 rpm in a 302.
The extra 49 cubes will shift the curve down 4-500 rpm.
Also unsure how far the long runner intake will flow at high rpm as it's fighting the pressure in the manifold.
I'm not a Windsor man so I can't clarify but the extra cubes is a given due to the added volume of toning down a camshaft.
I'd try retarding the camshaft a few degrees. If this helps it breathe more up top I'd be increasing the duration. If it loses down low and doesn't improve up top I'd be looking at manifold.
@@hayden6056 thanks for the reply and time sir
That all sounds like a mild daily driver setup. If you're looking for more a Street\Strip combo- I'd replace the intake, cam and heads. GT40's are good torque intakes on a 351, and same for the rest of your combo - but you may be happier with an Edelbrock Super Victor EFI Intake\TB, AFR 205's and a Trick Flow Stage 3 cam. :)
@@cgarris8674 @C Garris the non ported newer 170s flow 250 or so CFM with the trick flows so the ported ones should be very close.
Being ported there's a good chance they're closer to 180-190 CC volume depending on how far they went. The velocity would be great on the street and I thought with that flow they won't be holding it back more so the baby bump stick and manifold.
When Richy tested as cast 170/190 heads on his sbf stroker 363 it made 510 with 170's and 528 with 195's. With a long runner manifold and the small cam I'd be surprised if he's making over 330hp at the moment.
With the cost of upgrading heads I'd be looking for a larger cam and better intake manifold. Even a nice rpm air gap with injector bosses and a 4 barrel throttle body I think would wake it the hell up.
351's need to breathe. That intake sure looks like money, but it chokes anything bigger than a 302. Need more intake runner and cam for sure. I bet it has awesome snap at 2500rpm right now.
How about that EFI 72mm throttle body holding the motor back? Does the carb flow more air?
that is part of it
I blame over heated motors and ring tension
The efi stuff is no good for na power.. carbs make power. Plus the lobe sep was better on the carbed 351w also. Just those 2 thinks will make up the power difference.
Maybe like you said, the induction system may not be well matched with the heads. I know the 351s tend to be really sensitive with induction tuning, that shortside turn is really finicky on stock-ish heads.
Are older blocks maybe stronger? I was going to try to duplicate on a 69 block 351w
block strength isn't the issue
The non rollers are definitely stronger, especialy the 1969-1974 versions - but as Richard said, not the issue here.
Have a similar 351w just with 12.1c/r, can i safely run boost on a dual plan air gap with E85
yes but why would you
You'd try the holley hi ram for boost?
Hi Richard - if you end up using a cutter on the pistons to fit a big valve head again, it'd be interesting to know what they all weigh after the Big Bang! 😆I've been tempted to do that a time or two on Junk Yard builds, but never had the courage to do it. A friend always jokes that he's "sure they're within + or - a half gram", when he does it. LOL
They were stock and I highly doubt that well balanced from the factory. Reducing piston weight from a balanced combo is safer than adding. I've swapped pistons out for ones over 50 gram lighter w/o re-balancing but it was only a 420ish combo.
you can measure them all if you like-but it is not a concern
@@richardholdener1727 A small imbalance at 1000 RPM becomes a huge imbalance at 8,000 RPM. An imbalance of only a few ounces can generate a force of over 200 lbs. at 8,000 RPM! That’s a lot of shaking and stress on the engine’s bottom end. But, for a Big Bang engine probably not a concern. Keep up the good work, Love this stuff!
@@cgarris8674 How do you measure/balance the amount of oil on each?
@@BOOT That's a good question! A good windage tray, crank scraper or dry sump may help.A few extra grams also needs to be added to compensate for oil in the bearings and clinging to the parts. The total mass you end up with is what the counterweights have to equal to balance the engine.
1994 and up roller blocks are knocked for being weaker, but yeah, while that intake design copies the Saleen $1,000 intake design, it's still a long runner design and back in the day, most went for the short runner "breadbox" designs that killed torque down low for above 4,500 rpm performance out of the 302. would be interesting to run one here to find out how much the housewives' theories were true. and an infrared gun scan of intake manifold heat would be interesting--is that long runner huge surface intake really soaking up the heat post intercooler or not?
no on the runners soaking up heat and the box upper intakes lose a lot through most of the curve and the TFS R is not a copy of the Saleen (the closer match to that would be Holley SysteMax)
@@richardholdener1727 interesting on the first, since you once claimed in your book that the shape and size of the classic 5.0 intake made it a heat soak. so what does TFS do different?
Meanwhile, i wonder if a short runner intake like say Edelbrock's Victor EFI (i would say the Power Products version but i know there's a ton of casting flash and port matching to be done) would be the middle ground between the old breadbox and the classic long runner?
Sounds like a classic example of piston slap, kills power every time 😂
Right on
Love this ford content
Narrow the LSA say...108° with everything else staying the same
Needs a sloppy stage 2 cam, ooh and a LS swap 😅😅😅
what is a relatively safe, reliable power number for fully stock 351 internals?
5-600 hp
Do u think valve timing was off ?
Used the wrong 351 I would guess...(windsor)
3in diameter main Journal is for work in a truck it is not high performance and that is the weak Link in the 351 Windsor I've had five in my truck and everytime I throw the crank out
no
That 3 inch main is awful. I would get a SHP427 block with the 4.125 bore Windsor, 9.5 deck and FE/Cleveland main size.
Hi-Ram
11R heads
As big of cam as you can fit
SEND IT!!!
combination cf cam and intake wows on the power
He should have done a 351 cleveland motor.
Woo finally a bang
Always wondered about the 351w BB test you performed - I typically wouldn’t do it Richard, but I feel you are totally responsible for that fiasco - proper preparation prevents pi… yeah you know. Go get you a couple sets of wastegate springs, you KNOW a 351w is going 4 digits.
I know how you can make it better make it a cleavor with a high Ram like you said and cram as much boost down its throat as possible lol
Compression, you should show cranking cylinder pressure poor man Dyno ❓🚩🚩
cranking compression does not show power output
AFR make some of the best sbf heads.
How long could you run an engine at peak before you cook the engine or dyno
11 hours
24 hour runs are not uncommon for OE dyno testing
Not all dyno setups are the same. And, the more power you make the more heat it generates.
Some could probably only run a few minutes at full load. Others could run till the engine physically wears out before they’d overheat.
So close to 250k
Because FORD!
Wouldn’t compression be increased with the 185 heads?
depends on chamber size
@@richardholdener1727 any specs on the heads used?
we didn't use 185 heads on this
@@richardholdener1727 I thought it said Edlebrock e-CNC 185 in the video?
I though you meant afr 185 heads-but the edel heads were within 1 cc of the stock heads
I think the smaller cam killed 20hp and the intake killed 30hp
👍💪
Man record the dyno session
More compression
What was the comp ratio between both setups ?
I think the lsa at 114 is way to wide . If it was 107 or 108 i thi k it world make more power
With plans for boost in its future, 112 or 114 are preferred.
Let's see some PROPANE POWER!
How much ring gap do you add ???
.0065 per 1 inch of bore
10:03 I thought the trickflow R was the better option over the Trickflow box for my street turbo setup because I try and keep it under 6200 rpms, maybe I had the wrong intake on my mind for an upgrade. I was worried about losing daily driver torque under and near my 3k stall.
You did good. The box would be softer down low.
@@hondatech5000 I don’t own either sir. I had it on my list I was considering buying. Can’t even find the box intakes now with trickflow and their “foundry” issues. Many of their aluminum heads are hard to come by too
@@timweb1510 just get long runners for 65 and down. The svo/gt40 is ok but really it falls before then
@@hondatech5000 with the trickflow box intake no longer being made currently and my throttle body setup it appears I’m stuck with what I have. I should have planned ahead but it was just so damn expensive
@@timweb1510 what do you have