✅ Subscribe To My Channel ➡️ Support me on PATREON www.patreon.com/shmupjunkieslushfund Chapter List: 00:00 - Mario has a Shmup Addiction 01:28 - Controller Test Intro and Baseline 04:26 - Let's Get Started, Nintendo Joycon and Official Pro 05:54 - Retrobit Saturn Pad Test Bluetooth and 2.4g 07:37 - Hori Fighting Commander and RAPV Hayabusa Stick 09:00 - Mayflash F500 Elite Universal Stick 10:12 - Brooke Universal Fighting Board Wired and Bluetooth 12:02 - Pad Hacking with Electric Underground 12:47 - 8Bitdo M30 Pad Bluetooth and 2.4g 14:30 - Brooke PS3 / PS4 to Switch USB Converter 15:30 - 3rd Party Nintendo Pro Controllers from PowerA and YCC Team 16:23 - Uh Oh Mario ******************************************************************************* IMPORTANT CORRECTION: The first pad tested is the Retrobit GENESIS Bluetooth controller (Blue). I incorrectly labeled it the Retrobit Saturn pad in the video, even though the image I show is the correct Genesis pad. The white pad tested with it, is the Saturn 2.4g, but the Blue controller is the Genesis Bluetooth variant. The internals are near identical, and I am in process of testing the Saturn variant. I will update this section once I've confirmed performance. The link and image is correct, but my label in the video is not. QUICK LINKS TO ALL TOP PERFORMERS IN THIS TEST Fastest Bluetooth Pad Retrobit Genesis Style Bluetooth Controller Pros: Fastest Overall Pad Tested Cons: None Price: $30 LINK: amzn.to/35sTJoo Fastest Wired Pad Hori Fighting Commander Pros: Fastest Wired Pad Tested, Great build quality Cons: Wired Only (not wireless) Price: $40 LINK: amzn.to/2HaCRtQ Fastest Arcade Stick Hori RAPV Hayabusa Pros: Fastest Wired Fight Stick, High quality parts Cons: Price, Wired Only Price: $150 LINK: amzn.to/2H3QeMT Fastest 2.4g Pad 8Bitdo M30 2.4g Pros: Fast performance, Solid feel and pad, Also works with Sega Mini consoles Cons: About 1/4 frame slower than Retrobit BT pad amzn.to/3lStcY0 Price: $30 Most Versatile Arcade Stick Mayflash F500 Elite Pros: Versatile (works with PS4/Switch/XboxOne/Xbox360/NeoGeoMini/MegaDrive), Sanwa Parts, Quality Stick Cons: Slower performance (3/4 frame) vs RAPV Hayabusa Price: $130 amzn.to/37d8mPg Brook Universal Board Pros: Convert any fight stick to work on Switch/PS4/XboxOne/PC, Build your own stick, Near identical wired and wireless performance Cons: Adds 1 Frame delay vs Joycon, Must be able to DIY Price: $80 amzn.to/3dugJqJ Brook PS3/4 to Switch Converter Pros: Plug and Play, Very versatile, Use wide variety of existing controllers on Switch Cons: Adds over 1.5 frames of delay vs Joycon Price: $40 amzn.to/2H3SqDL Note: All links above are Amazon Affiliate and I will make a small cut of any purchases made from them. ************************************************************************************************************************** Follow me on Instagram: instagram.com/turbothunder16/ Follow me on Facebook: facebook.com/shmupjunkie Follow me on Twitter: twitter.com/shmupjunkie
Seriously, this may be my fav YT video about shmups for this year, simply stellar! The content is hardcore quality but made for a broader public, and the humor is top notch. Loved the Pulp Fiction reference and seeing Mario playing Ikaruga almost had me falling from my chair from laughing. Keep them coming man!
thanks man. I honestly thought most folks won’t watch most of it or skip around since it’s a lot of dry numbers. So I tried to spice it up with a bit of Mario humor. Hopefully Nintendo doesn’t get mad and take it down 😅 it was in good fun. I don’t know what possessed me to do the pulp fiction thing but once it popped in my head it had to be done. It wasn’t easy doing that all myself making it look like two people. Creative editing
@@Axel_Kei lol right. Gotta get zem clicks. But it was an actual shot of him in the video so I figured it can’t be click bait if it actually happened lol
Ikeda bless you for testing the may flash stick. I have been warning people about the added lag compared to the brooks ultimate board, but I haven't been willing to buy one to test for myself ha. Also, another warning about the may flash stick is that it advertises itself "easy to mod" (or something like that), but it is actually kind of complicated to mod because it does not use standard Japanese wiring connections, it uses some cheap Chinese wiring (at least on the cheaper models). So you either need to start doing some creative wiring or spend extra money on Japanese wiring connectors. Also yes, thanks to your video I am going to create a video on how to pad hack that Saturn pad to make yourself a fast and relatively cheap wireless arcade stick! I have been looking to do this for quite a while because I have a spare stick that has no brain ha. Maybe I can even come up with a silly way to mount the switch while I play. Lastly, it doesn't surprise me that the 8bitdo controller is so slow. I bought myself their snes pad a while back and could tell it was laggy as hell, so I stopped using it. Shame, because the parts are quality. P.S. Thanks for testing the brooks converter as well. Again, I have been warning people about it adding delay but have been too busy to get around to testing mine. What's funny is that when they released it, they made a claim on their website that they couldn't figure out how to test for its latency ha.
Any time man and I’m looking forward to seeing how your tests look for that Retrobit pad. It’s so difficult to wire some of the newer pads that even a fraction of a mm difference where you place the wire leads can effect the numbers. As much as a quarter to a half frame when I was playing with it. So I’d love another to give a second look at it given how well it tested for me. The sticks are simple and accurate as the bare contact leads are right on the back of the buttons inside. On the Mayflash I actually disassembled the Sanwa button and attached the lead directly to the metal spring and ball that makes contact, so it has to be right on the money. Luckily I had plenty of old spade connectors from my AV installs so I just rewired the buttons inside vs trying to use their connectors. It’s cheap and easy and I’d recommend that to anyone sticking a universal board inside a Mayflash. I’m willing to bet if I test that board on my PC USB vs the Switch port it would be pretty blazing fast. I think I saw the pork chop express Mister tests of it with amazing performance. I’m willing to bet the board connected to the switch usb is just a good bit slower.
I might just have to buy a RetroBit pad now to hack into a Switch arcade stick. I've been reasonably happy with my Mayflash F500 Elite, but I do want to do a custom build with the Brook board at some point, and try another brand of stick.
@@GameBoyGuru You saw the new video Electric Underground just posted right? It shows how to pad hack the Retrobit pad into your own arcade stick. Not simple like the Brook board and requires soldering but it gives your stick the identical response speed of the pad. I’m going to try it too one day.
I love that people these days go to the trouble of documenting down to the fraction of a frame, what exactly the difference between controllers are. And then, wrap it up in a very entertaining video, available to all for free. This sure beats the approximately zero information I had as a kid looking for extra controllers. Took a couple tries to realise unless I'm going first party, it's a dice roll. Thanks madcatz
You’re welcome. I was getting asked a ton to make something like this. And it’s constantly coming in handy as reference as I test new games and collections with them. It came in extremely handy for the new vid tomorrow on Capcom Stadium 2 as it has issues with certain controllers adding much more delay than they should be. If this baseline wasn’t here there would be no way to know.
Super solid video the whole way through. Really important information dispersed while being funny, warm, and friendly. Congrats on another banger dude!! Grabbed the retrobit controller and am really digging it. The dpad reminds me of the astro city mini dpad. Not only is the lag super low, but the dpad feels like its own unique thing, which is an added bonus to shmup play as it makes it an adventure to figure out how to dodge and navigate your way through emerging patterns as compared to an arcade stick feel or a mushier dpad. Might check out the fighting commander later as well.
Glad you found this older vid! Well not that old but old for me. It’s been really useful to a lot of folks. It’s not easy making such a dry subject and numbers entertaining so I really tried. I personally use a real Saturn pad wired with a low latency usb converter whenever I can, and then the Hori FC with the switch. It’s another really nice dpad though a bit different from Saturn. I’m the opposite where I play worse with a stick as I have less practice, so I’m working on improving there. I’m glad this helped you make some good decisions on which to get. For the cheap $25-30 or so they cost they’re quite good.
@@ShmupJunkie I can only imagine how tough it must be. Sounds like you have a great set up. I actually have a friend giving me an original sega saturn controller because I have heard so many good things about it for shmups. Was thinking about grabbing the raphnet converter. Is that the one you use? Also with respect to the stick, I am still not amazing, but was terrible when I started. I found the less I tried to be good and the more I looked at it as something that might be interesting to learn, the more natural it felt. Maybe that could work for you too.
Also I nearly forgot, I added a bat top, a 2lb spring, a kowal actuator, and octagonal restrictor, and an increased tension jlf sanwa stick so that my stick feels closer to a dpad anyway. with more restricted movement. I am terrible with technology and. even I could do those modifications. Hope this helps, my man.
So good😂 Mario cracks me up and had me rolling bro. Came for the shmups and gags, left with some knowledge! Very impressive display of engineering and dedication buddy!
I have that red Hayabusa stick but to me there is too much travel in the stick itself to play shooters... or maybe I’m just not very good using sticks with shooters in general 😂 Anyway, I prefer using the pro-controller, but I will check out that Saturn blu-tooth controller! Great vid.
I’m honestly not a pro with sticks either and play better with a pad from practice. But I’m trying to improve my game with a stick so these will be an opportunity to see which one works for me. I may find the same thing. My go to has always been a Saturn style pad for them.
Such a great comparison. I'd be really curious to see PS4 vs Switch games in a future comparison video. The main myth out there is that Switch ports perform worse no matter what, with games like Esprade reportedly having more lag on Switch than their PS4 counterparts. So curious if there's any merit to that.
That would be a great test actually. Now with my universal board installed in my f500 I could easily plug it into either console and compare results. Only downside is I have it on switch but not ps4 so I’d have to buy it twice. To satisfy my curiosity 😁. But I just might now 🤔
Another great vid, probably the best one so far. I love my RAP Hayabusa, had mine since release. Would love to see more Switch vids as it’s definitely my fav console by far.
Thanks! I do try to make these useful tech videos once in a while. There’s so many great shmups I do want to highlight on the switch I’m positive I’ll be doing more of them. Especially highlighting some great indie shmups.
Also one other question are you using a low ping monitor like a Lenovo PC 1 ms? Are you intentionally adding monitor delay or do you not realize that a one millisecond monitor is as close as you get to a CRT TV And you get high definition TV and will play literally any game lag free except for CRT TV base light gun games which require sub microsecond delay times.
Thanks for these measurements! I own a good selection of the higher performing controllers on this list, as I often use them on zero-lag platforms with a CRT, like the MiSTer. However, I wasn't certain how they ranked with the "complete system" setup on Switch using an HDMI display as you've shown here. My Switch HoriRAP is now my "official" shmup-specialised controller for Switch, PC, and MiSTer... I took the Hayabusa stick out of it and replaced it with a short-throw Seimitsu LS-56 and an octo gate. It's no longer as great for fighters, but for shmups.... wow!!!
Considering I rarely play fighting games at home on my own, I may be well off doing the same with my Busa. I still use a Saturn pad most of the time but have been needing to practice and improve using a good stick. Not everyone likes the very short throw buttons on it but I’m good with them, much less effort needed to use them.
Hey man! Thx for watching and I’m glad you found the info useful. I know you use your switch plenty for shmups so when not in handheld mode on the patio, there are some good options for an old school wireless pad.
Amazing video, just been laughing for a while now...poor Mario!! This is very relevant info, should've taken some time to get these tests and results my friend!! Now I am seeing my Pro Controller with another eyes hahaha...will definetively try the Retrobit controller asap. On the side note, that fight stick is so beautiful and bad at the same time!! Congrats!!
Thanks dude and glad you got some good laughs. Mario in rehab is gonna have to be the next episode lol. The pro isn’t too bad wireless long as it’s the official one. Was only a half frame slower than the Joycon. It’s just not the best Dpad for older games. The Retrobit BT and the 8bitdo 2.4g both did real nice. I hope some people are able to use the info if they were on the fence about what to get. That Busa is really nice 😁
These videos are so good even Mario is on the Shmup Crack Pipe! Maybe he can star in his own Shmup, Mariodius, M-Type, or Xenon 3 : Marioblast. Great video mate and quite interesting to see all these comparison and actually quite surprised to see wired controllers getting out performed by wireless variants. Not so much after your previous video but still is something that most expect to be the best performing solution. Loved the skits and and movie references (Pulp Fiction) and Big love for that RAP Hayabusa, it will be mine one day, oh yes.... Great job mate. Roll on next Sunday!
Soon enough Mario will be in SA (shmups anonymous) so hopefully that helps him regulate 😁. Yeah wired isn’t always what it used to be. USB ports on consoles aren’t designed for gaming as much as charging and other convenience as they know almost nobody will play wired. The PS4 is faster wireless as well just how it goes now. But usb in itself isn’t slow. On a properly set up computer the USB port will be near zero delay.
Welcome! And glad you found it useful. This one was a lot of work but so many people are always asking about Switch controllers with lower input delay I wanted to put it together.
Thanks! Great job. One thing I also take away from this analysis is that lag (if the numbers are relatively small) doesn't matter as mush as many people believe. You've found that controllers commonly perceived as faster aren't so, so there must be a placebo effect working here for the people that swear that they play better due to lower lag. At least in shmups, maybe other games (like fighting games) are difficult to adapt to.
That’s true small fractions of a frame are indistinguishable. It adds up if the overall game is not a great port and itself runs slow, but for Ikaruga as an example no way any but the most sensitive and elite players would notice. Once you start adding a 1.5-2 frame difference some can tell. That’s why I always say don’t focus too much on the lag numbers. It’s a good guide to see which ones to avoid if they are really bad vs others, but anything in this test that was within 1 frame or less of the joycon is likely something near nobody would notice the difference. Always go with the controller you like best. I tried to make a small point of that at the end. Before Mario passed out lol
@@ShmupJunkie Yeah, you made that clear. Comfort >> Small differences in lag. I for one will take the extra lag of my arcade stick + brook converter over a pad. Of course, I could buy a good Switch stick, but I don't think 1 frame of lag can justify the expense... yet.
Very comprehensive video this Junkie, appreciate it took a lot of time and effort. I got the Mayflash 500 elite at the end of last year, but only just seen your lag test now. When I first tried it I got susceptible lag on Switch, but not Noticeable on PS4. I then updated the improved lag performance firmware that came out Nov 2021 and it did feel like it improved it - could all be in my mind of course! 🤣👍
Thanks. I might have missed this information, but what Genesis-to-USB adapter did you use for M30 2.4g? Or do you have the version that comes with a USB 2.4g receiver?
Just found your channel and I am digging it. I was looking up stuff for my old fav shooter Alpha Mission on the NES. Loved that one. More of a horizontal shooter guy here.
Alpha Mission on nes I remember well it’s a classic. How you came across a Mario switch video looking for alpha mission I don’t know 🤣 but who am I to question the almighty RUclips algorithm. It knows best since it sent you my way. I’ve got a ton of shmup content here but I’m due for a good nes shooters video. It’s an old nostalgic favorite of mine too so I want to do it right.
Thanks man! I’m glad you enjoyed the vid and regardless of how small a cut it may be it’s the gesture that counts. Hopefully over time if my channel grows it can become more significant. We all gotta start somewhere 😊
This video is so valuable. I googled for so long trying to find anything like this. You are the man! I subbed, liked and turned on the notification bell!
I’m really glad you found it useful and is the reason I put it together. Lots of people were always asking for info like this and there was lots of conjecture without any real tests. So I enjoy hearing when people found it so useful, thank you.
I subbed as well. I believe he is the first to do this kind of accurate test for individual controllers. I try to look elsewere but all i see is the original joycom pro controller. With this video, i am now looking and want to buy the retrobit sega. And hori FC.
@@joannetraigo2505 thanks. And for the official joycon it’s not bad when wireless. Nobody will really notice a half frame difference. It just has a poor Dpad for older games. That’s what first made me want to test others. To find a good pad that also performs well. The Hori FC is super solid aside from being wired only. The retrobit mega drive and Saturn pads are nice with my biggest complaint just being the pad on some bottoms out. Like you can push it straight in. The 8bitdo is the same way. My original Saturn pad does not do that. It’s only the newer controllers that do.
Haha well on the plus side at least you won’t end up like Mario here. Or at least not from Shmup addiction. We all have our own version of our crack pipe.
Just ran up on this video (subscribed to you a few weeks ago), and glad I did! I plan on getting a Switch soon, and this controller/stick review is just what I need. Definitely getting that blue retrobit for shooters! I'm also noticing that the Switch and Steam seem to be the go-tos for shooters nowadays, compared to the PS5 and Xbox Series X.
I'm glad you found it then. Performance wise and accurate, it's a good pad. Since I made the review, there have been a handful of reports in terms of quality, where some parts needed replacement due to premature wear on those Retrobit controllers, but mostly anecdotally from what I came across. Just a heads up. I personally really dig the Hori FC and don't mind it being wired. It's solid as a rock and just about as fast as the Retrobit, so I use it a lot and have been happy with it too. PS4 still gets it's share of shooters too, but the Xbox has definitely been the odd one out for a long time.
I’m definitely thinking of picking up the s500 elite stick and for sure I’ll use your link. You should be getting paid for your time and work. Thanks so much for all your hard work and amazing videos. I do have a question about the stick. I’ve always used pads except for obviously all my time spent in arcades🤘 but these come with 4 way sticks, do I need an octagonal gate for shmups? I do play some fighting games and I know 4 way is best for those but my true passion is shmups and 90’s ones at that. What do you recommend? Thanks in advance.
I’m certainly no expert on arcade sticks as I play better on a Dpad, but from my understanding it’s all about preference a 4 way works just as well as octagonal. They each feel different for shmups but it’s one of those topics where someone asks and an ugly war of opinions breaks out 😂. The nice thing about the F500 or most is they aren’t hard to modify. The parts for changing out the square for an octagonal gate is cheap. In fact I’m in the processing of discovering my preferred stick and parts as well, so I plan on trying both and pick my preference. There are actually some fighting games players that even like octagonal from things I’ve read. So there is no right answer here besides try both and see what you like best. I think many Shmup players like the Hayabusa and that’s a square gate I believe.
The moral of this story is: Don't let Mario play shmups. Those are some nice pads though. I look forward to getting an arcade stick of my own. But yeah. I think Mario needs to take a break and play his own games or something.
Poor Mario he just took too big of a hit too quickly 😅. Will see how often he ends up passed out in my game room in future videos haha. Hopefully this at least showed which stick you may find interesting. I really like the arcade board and building your own. That’s a pretty nice option. If they can get it even faster on the switch it would be a no brained for anyone that can DIY it
Glad you found me and that this old video is still getting some use. Saturn style pad is still my old favorite so I use them whenever I'm able too for that dpad. Saves my thumb a whole lot of soreness.
You still found a Busa for sale that quickly? Nice I'm glad they are still up for sale, as I know it takes a while to make sometimes. As long as you don't mind it being Switch exclusive, as I know many look for a stick they can use across all their consoles, it's hard to go wrong with it. Some people change out the gate for shmups, but I'm not good enough with an arcade stick yet to get that deep with it. I still play best using my Saturn pad.
@@ShmupJunkie I kept going back and forth between that and the mayflash 500 elite. In the end the Busa was just too sexy. I may mod it in the future to use with other systems but right now the switch is getting the most love.
Amazing work, I appreciate all the time and money that went into this, thank you! I’m surprised the brook wireless board didn’t beat the wired RAP, but they are very close and the expanded compatibility and wireless is a solid trade. I have a fighting commander for PS4 and it’s really nice, so I’ll probably grab that switch one (using your link of course) for 2d games in general. It also is one of the best controllers for MiSTer! BTW, small point, your spreadsheet headers say “ms” when they should say “frames” i think
@kwentn Thanks man. It was a lot of work wiring them especially but it’ll be good data I hope for everyone. I’ll bet the brook board is fastest direct into a PC I may test it one day soon for my curiosity. Either way they’re both fast enough for me personally. Maybe in time they can improve the BT connection to the switch as I also expected it. Was surprised when both wired and wireless tested near identical. I never used the Hori FC before and I have to say I really liked the feel. I’m going to use it some more for some of my sessions vs my Saturn pad. Thx for the heads I’ll check the sheet I didn’t have much time to proofread it. I used frames for the avg latency since it’s what most people can relate to vs looking at ms and not knowing how to decipher that. But on the min and max I just left it as ms since it’s more just useful data to see the overall range it tested in. I think amazon pays 1% for affiliate link purchases so all I need is 100 people to buy each one and I made my money back 🤣. Seriously though the gesture is always appreciated whenever you do. I’ll find a way to make it sustainable overall one way or another.
@kwentn the Saturn BT surprised me too I had to retest it. I asked Mark from EU to test it as well when he gets his as I want to see if something on my end is off. Overall it doesn’t surprise me how it may work better with one device vs another. The Mister doesn’t have wireless itself so whatever dongle is used for the connection would play a factor too.
Lol I’m glad you had fun with it. I’m just trying to take a dry subject like numbers and help make it more entertaining. Mario may be back soon for another episode 🤣
I know this video is like 2years old, but this was just very interesting to me.. Thanx for testing all this out... Im already looking for that SEGA Genesis pad :)) Well then i assume the 'fastest' way to play on Switch is by playing on the Switch Light since the controles are attached directly to the Switch.. some data on the Hori Split Pad Pro would be interesting aswell..
One controller missing from this that I feel needs mentioning is the Pokken Tournament Controller. It has become my controller of choice for 2D games and shmups on the switch. It looks a bit weird but it feels excellent to hold. I’ve had no issues with precision while using it. Very good d-pad. I’ve been told that some people even use it for Tekken 7 on PS4 as the game recognizes it as a BandaiNamco approved controller.
I've had a couple others mention it too as a really good one. I don't have one to wire up unfortunately, but if I ever come across one, or someone decides to donate it to the testing gods I will gladly wire it up and see how it performs. I don't doubt it's very similar to other current pads of the same brand. So since it's Hori, I would expect pretty similar to it's wired Fighting Commander, which performed extremely well.
I know that's how it is in the arcade, but at home I can't play shmups with a stick at all. The amount of effort and travel distance vs using a dpad is just too great, and I notice a huge performance dropoff switching from a controller to a stick. Weirdly the opposite for fighting games though.
Just 2 more minutes. Just what i used to say as a kid! Ha. Bought a retrobit controller after watching your video for when i travel with my switch. So thanks!
Mario has a Fighting Stick PC?! Beautiful! I wonder how it compares to the Hori Fighting Stick Multi. Got one of those because it connects to PCE, MD/Genesis and SNES. I love that old hardware. I can totally recommend the Hori RAPV, it is very solid and has a good size. Works very good with PC and Switch. There is just one important thing bothering me, but this is personal preference: the buttons have a very low resistance and short travel distance. They react on slightest contact. I swapped them with buttons having a bit more resistance, so I could rest my fingers on them. Thanks for this great test!
I noticed that too on the RapV the buttons had a very short travel. I haven’t used it enough yet to see if I like that. It feels nice but I can see how just the slightest touch would activate them. The Hori FC pad has that too but the buttons are solid enough to where you can’t trigger them by accident. That Hori stick for PCE is amazing most serious caravan players at the time used it. It’s world class. I know a couple people that even modded it farther but mine is stock. They are metal and rust over time so it’s hard to find one in good shape. I really like the joystick on it though. I still see them on eBay from time to time.
Nice video! An idea for a future video is checking how distance and household obstacles influence controller reception and latency. I feel the joycons get sketchy very fast if you move a bit away from the console, in a bigger living room.
Oh you're right on the money with distance. The Joycon range is pretty poor. I've never tested it proper but anecdotally. We keep the switch in another room from where we play, and I had to use a pro controller (which has much better distance) to not constantly drop out. I was on the other side of a wall, more than just a big room, but it definitely didn't do well. It was unusable where my PS4 and Xbox controllers work fine. The pro controller to it's credit had no such problems.
Now I've been looking at this twice since it didn't look right, it seems your so called Saturn controller actually is the Retro-Bit Mega Drive BT controller and not the Saturn controller. Is the internals the same on the Retro-Bit Mega Drive and Saturn BT controller?
Thank you so much for noticing that! With the mad rush I completely had that mislabeled in the video as the Saturn style pad when the Blue controller is the Genesis variant. 🙈 I even had the correct Genesis image thumbnail on the screen, but had it labeled as Retrobit Saturn. I just put a big correction note in my description and fixed the pinned comment as well. I did look at the internals again and I'd be surprised if they used a different BT between the two, but to satisfy my own curiosity too and confirm I'm going to wire up the black Saturn BT pad now and confirm they perform the same. Thanks for bringing that up when you noticed it, as with the mad rush to edit and get the video up in time I totally missed that I labeled it the Saturn pad. I have a bad habit of calling them both "Saturn" pads, referring to the actual Dpad on the controller as on the Retrobit, the actual DPads between them are the same. So I always say I love the Saturn style pad, referring to the Dpad itself, but they are different controllers with slightly different form factors and top trigger buttons as well. So thanks again for catching that. I'll update my description again once I wire up the other pad and confirm it.
@@ShmupJunkie Shit happens. ;D Thx for confirming. Just wanted to be sure since I intend to do a padhack for one of my old arcade controllers. Loved everything else with the video. Do you know if latency changes when several inputs are used at the same time? Feels like more data sent could alter the results depending on protocol. I have several BT/2.4G controllers where they work great but suddenly get lag spikes and miss/delay inputs, but may be really hard to actually try. Lower input lag on one button press should after all mean lower input lag overall. Recently found your channel and love the humour and positive attitude without screaming like everybody else on RUclips. Keep on rockin.
@@GillPinball you’re right it would be hard to try and get consistent results. Without actually testing that, my best guess would be two reasons for added latency. It wouldn’t be bandwidth as the minuscule amount of data sent by a controller even several is well below what you could send over the connection. Especially 2.4g. More likely it’s possible overall interference between them especially with different brands used simultaneously. The second and even more likely is the game itself, as having to do multiple players or especially split screen may add processing time to the game itself. It may run slower in multiplayer overall which wouldn’t be surprising. Maybe not in most fighting games but I can see it for a platformer or Shmup... or especially split screen FPS games. If there are actual missed inputs though like you mention to where it’s noticeable that would almost definitely point to RF interference and not just input delay. My two cents without actually testing it.
Very interesting and informative! I am currently looking to buy a good arcade stick for my switch as I have almost exclusively arcade games on it, would have liked to see the 8bitdo stick to compare with the Mayflash as i was pretty much hesitating between these two… to be honest I didn’t think there was that much latency with these things when you consider all the lag from the tv, the console, the usb ports etc… Anyhow, fantastic job you did there as this is the most in-depth video I have seen yet on this subject! Cheers!
I don't know if I will have time soon to make a dedicated video for it, I'd need to have a good bunch of new controllers to test. But I will definitely test it for myself and if it really is a big improvement, I can post the results here in the video description and top comment. As well as get the word out in my community tab so people know. I'm curious myself to see the improvement.
It did really well in this test! I'm not an expert on arcade sticks but from the short amount of time I have used it so far it feels pretty great. It's just massive!
Dang you spotted the laseractive just hanging out down there! I didn’t even realize it was in the shot while I was filming. I’m trying to get the MD module repaired it’s not easy finding someone local to do that. Haven’t wanted to ship that thing it’s too valuable.
@@ShmupJunkie I see cap kits for these are sold on Ebay. I wish I didn't sell my unit. Had the Genesis and the NEC pack along with the 3d glasses (was there anything released for those) and quite a few games. But I needed the money to eat. :(
@@spootdev even with the cap kits, it’s the insane labor. The mega drive module had over 300! supposedly and it’s extremely delicate and specialized work. Very very few even work on it anymore. I did find one local person but with COVID everything went on the back burner.
What about the Switch light? How fast are the integrated controlls? What about plugin in a usb controller directly into the Switch without a docking station?
I've had a few people mention that one as very good. If I ever did another round or had one I would try and test it. Though I'd expect it would be very similar to some other Hori stuff I tested which had good results.
Awesome video, thanks!! Out of curiosity, have you had a chance to try the latest Brook Wingman NS? I read somewhere (can't find the source anymore) that input lag has been improved, but would be curious to see actual timings.
Actually no, I have never tried or used the Wingman so I have no idea. If I ever get my hands on one I will gladly wire one up and test it. Most Brooke products usually perform pretty well so I don't expect too much of a difference from other good Brooke products.
Great video! This I think now proves that using usb-connection with Switch doesn't automatically add 1 frame lag and neither it is a zero-extra lag option, it also depends on the controller. My biggest surprises: 1) Hori hayabusa stick to be as fast it was as I have had one for couple of years and while it feels fine, it doesn't feel that special (I wonder has there been some firmware improvements since I bought mine?) 2) M30 BT version being so slow compared as I have one of those as well and it feels really good what comes to input lag 3) Brook wireless board not being faster than wireless hori hayabusa stick (saves some money for me as well as now I don't need to get the brooks wireless board installed on my hori hayabusa stick in hope to get less input lag) 4) Retrobit saturn BT version being as fast (now I have to get one, even I don't think the build quality is as good as with the 8bitdo pads)
You’re pretty much right on the money here. On the switch USB port I showed that in my last video too, that it’s USB port isn’t just 1 frame but closer to half. And can vary by controller. Yes the Busa got good numbers same as the Hori FC. Doesn’t mean everyone will love the stick I still need to use it more myself, but it did get solid numbers yes. I was honestly also surprised by the fast BT numbers I got on the Retrobit vs some others and retested it a few times. But it kept getting good results. And on the M30 the slow results made me retest, but it jived with some other results out there. Their 2.4g pad was great though and really fast. But overall your conclusion is exactly right and what I was going for. Aside from a few outliers they were all quite close to each other. And I’d personally pick the one I like best and feels best to play, not just by the result. If you like the feel of the 8bitdo vs Retrobit I’d go with that. The 2.4g was so close to the Retrobit you’d not notice the difference likely. And it’s pad is just as good if not more solid feeling. Personally for me the controller feels a bit small in my hands because I’m used to real Saturn pads all the time. So it’s just my preference. Any of those controllers that tested less than a frame vs the joycon I wouldn’t kick out of bed 😆
I was also surprised by the wireless on the Brooke being same as wired. At least on switch. That’s why we test. But keep in mind that’s just switch. The wired connection may be way faster on other consoles or a PC. I’ve seen it tested elsewhere on a MiSter wired where it’s blazing fast almost no extra delay at all.
Thanks so much for making this video - extremely informative stuff! I had a BT M30 and loved the build quality but thought something felt a bit 'off' compared to the official pro controller, and your data backs up my intuition. Looks like I'll be buying a 2.4g version soon.. Do you have any plans to run the same tests with any of the controllers released after this video, such as the 8bitdo Pro 2 or the Mega Drive/Genesis NSO controller?
I'm really glad it helped and confirmed what you felt. Something about the BT 8bitdo is off and adds too much delay. I would certainly do more one day, but I just don't have a whole bunch of new controllers to work with laying around. It was pricey picking up so many just for a single video, but part of them were controllers I already owned. I'd need volunteers to send in a lot of controllers to get wired and tested.
Superb video (and I don't even own a Switch). Biggest surprise for me was Retro-bit's Genesis BT option outperforming their 2.4g one. I didn't think that was even possible. Thanks again for all you do.
It surprised me too! They are very very close. I think it’s the extra delay from the switch usb connection that makes it just a bit slower. Otherwise they’d be almost dead even. My margin of error here is at least 1/4 frame. My biggest surprise was the 8bitdo Bluetooth being as slow as it was. It wasn’t until I found that RetroRGB old test that kind of confirmed my same results.
@@ShmupJunkie Are you familiar with Porkchop Express AKA MiSTerAddons and his spreadsheet of lag tested controllers? It's not Switch focused (obviously) but his methodology is sound and it might prove as useful as what you found on Bob's site. Anyway, from what I understood from when I looked at it (admittedly a while ago) the 8bitdo 2.4g and Krikzz Joyzz controllers were up there with the very best performing.
@@Fattydeposit Yes I am I’ve got a link to his spreadsheet. His testing is very extensive and he runs many more passes than I’m able to along with under 1ms accuracy it looks like. Really valuable test data. The 2.4g 8bitdo did great on my test as well although I didn’t have the Krikzz to test. Since it’s already been tested I’m sure it would’ve done just as well. I keep an eye on his spreadsheet and updates.
@@Fattydeposit ha thanks. It very much is. I will slowly look into other styles of videos I can make that people will also enjoy but slightly less demanding on my part. Mixed in with my usual which I really enjoy. I’m slowly figuring it out as I go along. And thank you for the support it’s all of that which keeps me going.
Anything should be better than the joycon especially when joycon drift comes into the equation. I guess Mario is chilling at your place after all the abuse he has taken from the 35th Anniversary.
Ha yeah even he didn’t want to play his own release again 😁. My joycon unfortunately has also drifted. Which is why I butchered that one up for these tests. So it’s sacrifice wasn’t in vain.
Excellent video; your tests were very thorough, and I hope they inspire others to do the same with different controllers. A community-managed lag database would be my hope so that people know what the best options are. Quick question: when you tested out the Bluetooth Retrobit controller, were you using the updated firmware that added additional button macros? I would hope that updates wouldn't affect the input lag, but I just wanted to be certain.
Hi Shmup Junkie, great video! Been enjoying your videos for a while but I have a question: on the first test for the retro-bit Bluetooth controller you say it’s the Saturn version but shows a picture and you using the Mega Drive version.. can you confirm that both retro-bit Mega Drive and Saturn Bluetooth controllers perform the same? Thanks in advance, just want to buy the right version😁🤘🏻
Yes, sorry about that. I mixed up the signage and what I was testing, but I did in fact test the Saturn controller as well and they both performed the same in terms of Bluetooth. At least they did at the time. The problem with all this stuff is you never know what changes over the years. New manufacturers, different components made cheaper to cut costs, etc. It's always a toss up. But it's the best we can do without testing them constantly and every new revision. At least when I did, both the Retrobit BT controllers performed great.
@@ShmupJunkie cheers for the reply👍🏻I know what you’re saying about newer revisions etc, but now I’m just going to buy either one of them as I’ve seen good deals for both online. Your reply was helpful either way so thank you, appreciate you taking the time🤘🏻
Just a quick follow up to say thanks Shmup Junkie, I bought a Saturn retro-bit pad and i’m over the moon with it! I’m a mad Saturn fan and have always loved the Saturn pads (they’re the GOAT), and this is making 2D gaming on the Switch a joy. I was sceptical about lag, being a 3rd party controller but your review/comments made me dive in. Now I don’t know how I managed so long without it. Cheers very much mate🤘🏻
Either that or the 8bitdo 2.4g M30 they were both really close within my margin of error. Whichever you find more comfortable. The M30 feels slightly more solid vs the looser Saturn style buttons on the Retrobit, but they are both good. I am just so used to playing on a Saturn pad it's my go to form factor.
My 8bitdo M30 2.4g arrived through the post today, wow what a great d-pad, so much easier to play now I’m rid of the joycons, might order a second in case it breaks
Just about anything is a nice upgrade from that terrible dpad on the Joycon, but the 8bitdo is definitely nice and solid feeling. I use mine playing on my Mini consoles as well. They're so cheap there's not harm in grabbing an extra I agree. I lost count how many random pads I have laying around now from all this testing!
Thank you, this video was amazing and is the definitive video for deciding on a shmup pad for switch! I'm leaning towards the Retrobit Genesis/Saturn pad after your glowing recommendation, but can I ask what makes you enjoy the Saturn controller so much for shmups? Is it the dpad?
Yes, it's absolutely the Dpad. I can use it for hours at a time and not have it wear out my thumb and make it raw. And it's also much more accurate for older games designed for them. The 8bitdo has a very nice dpad as well. So does the Hori Fighting Commander actually which is my main go-to controller personally, as it's more solid feeling being a bit pricier and wired vs the Retrobit. For wired controllers it rocks. It's the default pad on the Joycon and the Pro that are just meh. They are all useable of course, but once you use it a lot for older games you start to want a nicer pad.
@@ShmupJunkiethanks for the crazy quick reply! Hmm... I'm mostly interested in playing games like Darius collection, Ikaruga, and M2 Shottriggers series. In that case, would you recommend the Fighting Commander over the Retrobit? The cross dpad is quite different from the circular pad of the saturn. I come from PlayStation background so I'm new to this "good" dpad thing lol. As far as wires, I don't care about wireless or not, I sit pretty close to the TV ;) Thanks again for your help and your passion. Your channel has quickly become one of my favs here on YT!!!
Very nice and informative video thank you so much, im searching for this kind of stuff. Would be awesome if you would do this kind of test to compare the Switch best lag (joycons) vs the PS4 best lag (probably DS4) on a few same games, not necessarily shmup games because its just to compare the base lag on this 2 consoles.
You’re welcome. Fyi the PS4 stock Bluetooth controllers are smoking fast. The fastest of the generation. If you’re looking for performance with the stock controls the ps4 is king.
@@ShmupJunkie oh thanks nice to hear. I m very sensitive about lag, and i have a game (street of rage 4) on the 2 systems and to me, it respond faster on PS4, like a good frame faster. Its probably the case in general then
@@vsavjim4426 PS4 will always be faster it’s simply a faster console. Plus the extra controller response helps. If playing portable isn’t a priority then going ps4 is always the safe bet.
Thanks I did try to hit as many as I could. There was a few I just wasn’t able to get in time. But if you have one you’d like to donate I’d be happy to wire it up and test it for you 😁
Awesome video! I'd be interested in seeing a re-test of the F500 now that it's had a few firmware updates from Mayflash that are supposed to cut down on latency
It would be easy enough for me to retest it yes, since I still have it. I would be curious too and didn't know about all the updates. I'll see if I can try it in the next few days. If I do see a huge difference I'll try to find this comment again and report back.
Depends on the controller. Some basic ones have near zero yeah. But not all because they also have internal electronics. Especially if they are universal like the Mayflash F500 I tested. Everything goes through it’s own board and processing first which adds some delay. The big factor is the console USB port also. Bluetooth is direct to console communication and bypasses the USB bus and processing. That’s why the Joycon is so fast too. On a PC different story. Direct USB can be near zero lag.
Dude I am checking out this video after you suggested it to me in the comments of another video and THANK YOU for an indepth review that explains all this CLEARLY. The thing that got me most interested here was the HORI arcade stick, the thing that got me least interested was the price. I'm Canadian dude and man we pay more up here... That being said I wanted to ask if you know anything about the 8BitDo Arcade Stick? I saw a video on it recently and it seems to be damn good for the price you pay. I do NOT have the knowledge and experience that you do with controllers so I just wondered what your 2 cents was. I am definitely thinking of using it for my shooters and fighting games. Also HORI Mini Arcade Stick? Is that decent for the shooter junkie fix? :) Later dude!
I've heard good things about the regular 8bitdo stick too but I don't own one myself. But I have no idea about their mini stick at all. Since I already have so many... so I never tested or used one. I don't think I've ever seen the mini stick actually.
@@ShmupJunkie Dude no problem and thanks for a fast reply...wow you get points for that! Nice to hear that an authority gamer/reviewer is hearing what I'm hearing on the 8BitDo. I trusted you on all those TurboGrafX games I bought so I'll trust you hear too! Thanks again and just gotta say THANKS for showing me Lords Of Thunder!!! That still blows my mind with how perfect a shooter it is, level design, controls and music. That game is 10/10!
@@mitchtaylor177 I’ll be honest too I’m mostly a console gamer vs arcade. So I’m very much a pad player and use my Saturn pad for 95% of my gaming. So I’m not a huge stick expert and use them mainly for more modern shmups and some bullet hell. So there’s better people to ask about best arcade sticks. But I’ll tell you without hesitation the OG Saturn pad is amazing.
@@ShmupJunkie Same the arcade stick is kind of a curiosity for me that is growing so I'm researching. I liked what you talked about during the Saturn section...that Dpad looks suited to fighting games and the price is very much OK even up here in the frozen north.
I really enjoy your videos. Great content and awesome collection but for me there is one big flaw. I can't watch your videos I have to listen to them, the way yoz move your hands the whole time makes my eyes dizzy in a cetain way i only know from looking at a screen for too long. Never had this before. But still enjoying the content. Greetings from Vienna
Ha! I’ve never heard that one before. It’s like playing an FPS game and getting motion sick? That happens to me sometimes. I can’t help it I think it’s just natural to me when I’m on camera. At least hopefully you’re able to watch the gameplay parts of the videos which are more important anyway 😁.
@@ShmupJunkie i am and it not allways 🤣 but great content and your collection is awesome. Never had those games as a kid and your videos are a great way to get them on my radar.
4 frames input lag is a lot. Thats FOUR of Zangiefs Spinning Piledrivers. Also the general retrobit online shilling is just annoying at this point. The actual quality of the retrobit pad is far worse than people give it credit for.
I’m not sure what you mean about 4 frames input lag. All my lag results here are total like I showed at the start. It’s the controller, plus the game itself, plus my display. No controller by itself has that much. 3-4 frames total for any game on a modern system is excellent. For comparison 3 frames is about what you’ll get on most Saturn shmups playing on a CRT in total. So this test was just showing the controller performance vs the Joycons. And for the most part they all did pretty well. I’ll agree with you on the build quality on the Retrobit it feels a bit plastic and loose but didn’t seem to effect me using it. I actually preferred the feel of the Hori FC in my hands. And the 8bitdo feels more solid too. But I wasn’t really reviewing them here I’m not a controller guru I just wanted to show the numbers. It just happened that the Retrobit BT got the best numerical results. And I personally just like original Saturn pads it’s what I use whenever I can. I don’t watch a lot of other online stuff yet I didn’t realize there is a lot of shilling for their pads in general.
Junkie, the Bluetooth Genesis pad is currently very cheap and I'm considering getting it, however, is the Bluetooth Saturn version as good (do you know)?
Are you talking about the Retrobit pads? I've had good experience with both of them yes. Some have reported some quality issues over time with the pad, but not mine specifically. For how incredibly cheap they are it's understandable. But the performance has always been good.
After using the Hori stick for a few weeks I made some changes. The square gate had to go, not too bad for shmups but I also play fighters. I replaced it with the kowal octopus octagonal gate. The stick is also a little loose because of the spring this is one I do not mind in fighters but causes me to move more then I want to in shmups. So I replaced the spring with a 2lb tension spring for Sanwa jlf, it fits the Hori. I also wanted to activate the switches earlier so I bought a kowal 1mm oversize actuator, also for the jlf but fits the Hori. Now the stock feels a lot better playing shmups. Now to buy that Saturn pad...
At least you know the base wired performance on the Hori stick is solid and fast, so you’re not investing in something with a lot of extra lag. The Saturn pads aren’t perfect like the original but they do perform pretty fast and for the cheap price kind of hard to beat.
Ok cool. According to my taste I should go with a RAPV, but I’m still also looking for a good PS3/PS4 stick...A multisystem RAPV should be the perfect answer! Congrats Mario for your Italian accent, great!😆😆👍
Congrats on my terrible accent? 😅 my wife said I sound like an old Italian man haha. That fighting board I tested did pretty darn good. And I’ll bet on ps3/4 it may test even faster. Or on a computer especially. I’m going to run a future test soon using that same stick and board switch vs PS4 and see how it really compares on both.
I never used a Busa until I got it for this video. I really like the feel of the short throw buttons. I am going to try it back and forth vs the F500 and see which I end up preferring. It was really fast though I was pleased to see it as lots of people like it. So the 8bitdo adapter for wii is a 2.4g model right?
@@ShmupJunkie the Gbros is bluetooth it came out so people could connect gamecube controllers to Switch (Smash players)...but has a wii controller port too so you could use the nes/snes classic (and wii) controllers with it..quite cheap too worth checking out. Hyabusa is good I have seimitsu buttons and stick in it but the stock buttons were low profile/fast...quite good! ruclips.net/video/hjLSRO5Xrgg/видео.html
Excellent video as usual. I've been exploring some options myself. I have some cheaper joycons to use w my flip grip that KIND of have a better Dpad but they kept dropping inputs and having little lag spurts that wouldn't be noticable if I wasn't trying to play Shmups! Going back to the joycons was such a stark difference that the difference in timing had me running into bullets because my brain was trying to dodge a couple frames too early. I guess the only way to play a flipgrip is with the stock joycons... On the TV I actually use a 8bitdo Gbros controller connected to a official Nintendo SNES mini pad. This is wireless. I also have the 8bitdo USB controller adapter to use with PS4, XB1, WiiU pads. Id love a follow on video with these convertors if possible. Many of my friends use them so they don't have to buy that super expensive pro controller and use one of the many controllers we all have lying around anyways haha
I also have the retrobit saturn WIRED pads which on their second gen revision have native switch support. Used that to play through streets of rage 4, but after watching your older video I felt wireless was the way to go - now I gotta absorb this new content 🤣
Hey man thanks. Yeah I did this a while ago it seemed to be helpful to a lot of folks. I’m sure I’ll do a follow up one day once there are enough new options to try or any other new updates. I actually don’t own the gbros controller or any of the mini pads. If you know anyone that has a beat up extra or one they don’t use anymore and want to send it my way I’d be happy to test it for them. I’ll eventually sell the controllers and sticks I don’t use and buy up some new ones like that to test though based on requests. That wired hori FC pad has worked well for me too it’s fast and I like the feel of it and the pad.
@@ShmupJunkie I may pick up that Hori pad soon! Yeah this is all fantastic information if there's enough to make another video, great but even if not this video is plenty. The whole flip grip having to deal w specifically split wireless joycons has been the thing that I've been grappling with myself - it's such a niche privelege to be able to play Crimzon clover on a couch haha :)
Great info on this one buddy! Hey, look into Cronusmax. I bought one years back & it may work for the Hayabusa Stick, to be able to use on other systems other than the Switch?
I am completely stunned that wired and 2.4 Ghz controllers can be slower then bluetooth. I knew about the 8bitdo bluetooth M30 being slower then the 2.4 Ghz M30. I regret buying that, i surely notice some lag. When playing on Pi emulated and Oled TV (lots additional lag) the games are almost unplayable. Really ruins the experience.
2.4g is normally faster than BT in most cases. The M30 BT is just kind of an odd one out. But that USB wired connection on most consoles is what offsets the better speed. On both switch and PS4 the direct BT is faster then their wired ports. I think they assume 99% will play wireless so their wired ports are optimized for other things. The wired port on a PC or MisTer etc are blazing fast by comparison and can add near nothing. But yeah on modern consoles their USB ports always seem to add some delay.
I always loved the Saturn controller for shmups. Always felt very precise and reliable. I played hundreds of hours of Radiant Silvergun with one, but still never 1 cc'd the game... that was more me than the controller though. BTW, this could have had a "flashing images" warning at the beginning of the vid. The screen flickering was pretty intense.
The beginning with Mario? I didn’t see any flashing what part was that? I wonder if it’s the RUclips stream doing something weird as I don’t see it. I’m with you on the Saturn pad. I’m so used to it now it’s hard to use others. Just not as comfortable and it wears on my thumb faster. I pretty much got a low latency USB adapter for my actual OG Saturn controller now and use it anywhere I can.
@@ShmupJunkie No, when you're doing the tests for the response delay on the controller buttons. I could imagine that staring to see what's going on in the game, with the extreme screen flicker could be an issue for some folks. I'm not sensitive to such things, but even I couldn't watch full-screen.
@@arupian666 oh that. Yeah I’ve been making those windows smaller now like in my Capcom video since actually looking at them up close doesn’t really tell you much it’s just a representation. Playing back at that slow speed has a flicker effect. I can mention it in future videos just in case and add a description here (though nobody ever reads descriptions 😅). It’s the first time someone said that so thanks for the heads up.
The M30 2.4g I tested absolutely works with Switch. I didn’t know there was something out there that said it didn’t. And their 2.4g is faster than their BT I usually recommend it when people ask me about 8bitdo, to go with their 2.4 if they have the option.
I don’t think you can unfortunately. It’s a limited print I bought from an artist years ago and don’t think he sells them as posters. Too bad as I’d bet he would sell a good few!
@@szmyta666 I feel bad as I was trying to recall but it’s been a few years and completely slipped my memory. As I wanted to let you know the artist. I’m going to try and find him as he does a lot of game art and has other awesome work. So I want to remember for myself too.
Seriously folks, shmup habits are no joke. Once an addict becomes shmup dependent they very quickly lose all basis in the maintenance of normal life. Their work suffers, relationships fall apart, the user will start stealing their loved ones' game-controllers....It gets ugly. That very first high-score is such a buzz that they spend their lives trying to achieve the same high-score, and no matter how hard they try, the first high-score is always the best. It's just a question of basic human biology; The user builds up a tolerance so that no subsequent high-score is ever QUITE the same as that first time. But they continue to chase it regardless, again and again... Many addicts will even get their partners hooked so that they can continue to feed their habits without anyone trying to keep them on the level. Many a well-meaning loved one has joined their addicted partner in a quick 2 player game of Aero Blasters and never recovered. If you know someone close to you who is suffering from shmup addiction, the only thing you can do is be kind, understanding, but always be sure to remind them that life is prescious, and they only have 3 of them plus continues. This has been a public health advisory message from SHIT (Shmup Heads International Trust)
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Dude if only I had that schpeel when making this video I could’ve used it at the end as a Shmup advisory. Brilliant. I’m going to save this if you don’t mind and if I can ever work it on somewhere you’re getting full credit. Nice work 💪
Unfortunately my controllers weren't featured, being the PDP Faceoff and Gamecube controller adapter from Nintendo, but considering they're wired it's probably about time I upgrade to something like the Retrobit.
Yeah I was mainly trying to focus on Shmup oriented pads and sticks with good Dpads. But I do want to test more and keep adding to the database. If people ever want to send old controllers my way I will gladly test them too 😁.
I don’t own it and haven’t used it so I can’t say honestly. I’ve just had pretty good luck with Hori products in general in terms of performance. They’ve been around forever, even back in the 80s and made the original pc engine competition stick I still use!
Hi, Mayflash have release a firmware update for the F500 that they claim improves the delay - do you know if anyone knows how it compares now with this update?
I'll have to challenge your claim that the BT Retro-Bit Saturn pad is the best one. I had a session with it just now and I got some lag spikes here and there while playing Devil Engine and Crimzon Clover on Switch. It could be just BT interference because I tested it on a lunch break at work where many customers have BT-enabled devices themselves.
Definitely check it out more and let me know if you keep having issues with it. I only tested direct input delay like you saw and not long term use or things like distance or interference. There are just too many factors with wireless and BT that could alter the results. I was less than 10ft away from the switch as well and that delay could increase with distance after a certain point too. I think that’s why those who are real sticklers go wired. Even if it’s a tad bit slower you don’t have the interference to worry about. I thought the Hori FC felt awesome and was a more solid, higher quality build plus it performed near as well wired. I’ve been trying to use it a bit more myself and I like the feel of it. I did retest the Retrobit BT multiple times though and was getting consistent results, but it’s still a “lab” result in pretty ideal conditions. If you have lots of other BT devices around and are farther away I can see the wired controllers taking over as the most reliable choices. That does make sense.
@@ShmupJunkie For what it's worth, I've been giving it more time and I haven't had any issues since. And you're right, wired controllers, in spite of the additional lag, appeal to some because they provide more consistent performance; in fact before I found this video I was contemplating getting a wired controller so I wouldn't have to worry about charging batteries (I could just keep a wireless controller plugged in but I'd be concerned I'd wear out the battery). But at any rate thanks for the recommendations! I'll be taking more time to break this new controller in.
I noticed you used the Retrobit wireless Sega Genesis controller for wireless, and for wired the Retrobit Saturn pad, I was pretty sure the wired version of the RetroBit Genesis pad was made with the Sega Genesis mini in mind as opposed to the Saturn pad from RetroBit. I'm curious how the actual wired version of the Genesis 6 and 8 button pads compare.
When you say wired mode on the Switch Pro, are you explicitly referring to ONLY the added 'wired mode' that can be selected in the options or does this result include when you're simply playing with it connected via usb as a charger? I really hope that just charging it while still leaving it in standard bluetooth mode doesn't introduce any more delay. Definitely room for a sequel to this, for one I am highly tempted by 8bitdo's SN30 Pro Plus controller, though it's being touted as the most sophisticated pad they've released, I have no idea just how well it might perform on Switch after seeing the results of the M30 Bluetooth.
Simply connecting it to the USB to charge doesn't effect the performance no, not that I measured. I meant actually turning on the wired mode option to force the Switch to use it that way and not wireless. So if you want to charge only, make sure that is always off, otherwise the Switch will change you over to hardwired when you plug it in using the USB to communicate as well as charge. That's where you'll get the extra half frame or so of delay. So I keep mine off. For testing I had to specifically turn it on to make sure it wasn't just playing wireless while plugged in. There are a ton of controllers I could still test yeah, I just don't have them. It was expensive buying all these random extras on the first round and I tried selling off what I wasn't going to use. So I let people know they are welcome to send me theirs if they want me to wire up and test them, and eventually I'll have enough to put another video together. No takers yet though 😅
@@ShmupJunkie Excellent, that's what I figured but I just wanted to be 100% sure. Also yeah, it's not a cheap hobby, here's to hoping you get enough new pads for a followup. Really appreciate the work you've done so far though. Sub'd. :)
@@alopexau I’m glad you’re enjoying my vids. And if you are on discord at all and enjoy the discussion we have a great group of chill people there. I usually post the video I’m working on next in a certain channel and many pitch in and contributes knowledge and details I end up adding into videos. There’s a bunch of channels in there as well. If you ever do here’s a working link discord.gg/U2B6wAjZja
No I never tested any of the PS stuff honestly as there hasn't been a need. The PS4 controllers via bluetooth were some of the fastest around and a benchmark, already tested by others. So there was never much need. Unless they suddenly screwed up the PS5 I'd hope they are just as good as the PS4 controllers.
I’ve seen testing online where it shows that the Duel Sense is around 1ms slower than the DualShock 4 which is really good considering the DS4 already has very low input lag to begin with like you pointed out. Unfortunately for switch, it’s a matter of picking your poison.. Settle with the joycons crappy ergonomics, tiny cheap buttons and stubby weird analog sticks just to shave off 13ms of lag(which is a lot and does make a difference) or roll with the pro controller and get that comfort, larger buttons, higher quality and traditional sticks, all while having to put up with your in-game character feeling less responsive and heavier, plus it’s HD rumble feels drowned out, less defined and explosive compared to the detached joycons. Lose lose situation imo Nintendo totally dropped the ball with their controllers this year. I wish there was a better solution! A Pro-like controller with gyro that can get close to the joycons latency would be sweet
@@NeonPizza80s I pretty much only use my Retrobit or the wired Hori FC on my switch for older games. They’re both close as possible to the joycon and faster than the pro controller. Just no good for modern games that need analog controls.
The Hori FC looks pretty nice for anything retro based, but I wish I could use an 8bitdo controller when it comes to modern titles that use sticks. But supposedly those don’t fare too well in the latency department either. Ideally, If i could play switch exclusives on the PS5 with the duel sense for its low lag and then gain higher frame rates and resolution from the PS5’s power, I’d be jammin!
@@ShmupJunkie Just a heads up, the 8bitdo Pro 2 'Wired' Controller for Switch & PC supposedly has less latency than even the joy-cons and is in the same ball park as the Duel sense. I ordered one a couple of days ago, hopefully it does the deed! Just stay clear of the Wireless version, it's slow as a turtle, even when using it's detachable USB cable.
✅ Subscribe To My Channel ➡️
Support me on PATREON
www.patreon.com/shmupjunkieslushfund
Chapter List:
00:00 - Mario has a Shmup Addiction
01:28 - Controller Test Intro and Baseline
04:26 - Let's Get Started, Nintendo Joycon and Official Pro
05:54 - Retrobit Saturn Pad Test Bluetooth and 2.4g
07:37 - Hori Fighting Commander and RAPV Hayabusa Stick
09:00 - Mayflash F500 Elite Universal Stick
10:12 - Brooke Universal Fighting Board Wired and Bluetooth
12:02 - Pad Hacking with Electric Underground
12:47 - 8Bitdo M30 Pad Bluetooth and 2.4g
14:30 - Brooke PS3 / PS4 to Switch USB Converter
15:30 - 3rd Party Nintendo Pro Controllers from PowerA and YCC Team
16:23 - Uh Oh Mario
*******************************************************************************
IMPORTANT CORRECTION: The first pad tested is the Retrobit GENESIS Bluetooth controller (Blue). I incorrectly labeled it
the Retrobit Saturn pad in the video, even though the image I show is the correct Genesis pad. The white pad tested with it,
is the Saturn 2.4g, but the Blue controller is the Genesis
Bluetooth variant. The internals are near identical, and I am in process
of testing the Saturn variant. I will update this section once I've confirmed performance.
The link and image is correct, but my label in the video is not.
QUICK LINKS TO ALL TOP PERFORMERS IN THIS TEST
Fastest Bluetooth Pad
Retrobit Genesis Style Bluetooth Controller
Pros: Fastest Overall Pad Tested
Cons: None
Price: $30
LINK: amzn.to/35sTJoo
Fastest Wired Pad
Hori Fighting Commander
Pros: Fastest Wired Pad Tested, Great build quality
Cons: Wired Only (not wireless)
Price: $40
LINK: amzn.to/2HaCRtQ
Fastest Arcade Stick
Hori RAPV Hayabusa
Pros: Fastest Wired Fight Stick, High quality parts
Cons: Price, Wired Only
Price: $150
LINK: amzn.to/2H3QeMT
Fastest 2.4g Pad
8Bitdo M30 2.4g
Pros: Fast performance, Solid feel and pad, Also works with Sega Mini consoles
Cons: About 1/4 frame slower than Retrobit BT pad
amzn.to/3lStcY0
Price: $30
Most Versatile Arcade Stick
Mayflash F500 Elite
Pros: Versatile (works with PS4/Switch/XboxOne/Xbox360/NeoGeoMini/MegaDrive), Sanwa Parts, Quality Stick
Cons: Slower performance (3/4 frame) vs RAPV Hayabusa
Price: $130
amzn.to/37d8mPg
Brook Universal Board
Pros: Convert any fight stick to work on Switch/PS4/XboxOne/PC, Build your own stick, Near identical wired and wireless performance
Cons: Adds 1 Frame delay vs Joycon, Must be able to DIY
Price: $80
amzn.to/3dugJqJ
Brook PS3/4 to Switch Converter
Pros: Plug and Play, Very versatile, Use wide variety of existing controllers on Switch
Cons: Adds over 1.5 frames of delay vs Joycon
Price: $40
amzn.to/2H3SqDL
Note: All links above are Amazon Affiliate and I will make a small cut of any purchases made from them.
**************************************************************************************************************************
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Follow me on Facebook: facebook.com/shmupjunkie
Follow me on Twitter: twitter.com/shmupjunkie
I can't believe mario OD'ed on heroin in your studio, he needs to go to rehab
Seriously, this may be my fav YT video about shmups for this year, simply stellar! The content is hardcore quality but made for a broader public, and the humor is top notch. Loved the Pulp Fiction reference and seeing Mario playing Ikaruga almost had me falling from my chair from laughing. Keep them coming man!
thanks man. I honestly thought most folks won’t watch most of it or skip around since it’s a lot of dry numbers. So I tried to spice it up with a bit of Mario humor. Hopefully Nintendo doesn’t get mad and take it down 😅 it was in good fun. I don’t know what possessed me to do the pulp fiction thing but once it popped in my head it had to be done. It wasn’t easy doing that all myself making it look like two people. Creative editing
I think many will think that shot of Mario on the thumbnail is click bait but nope. It actually happens in the video 🤣
I agree with you. Not many has this quality.
@@ShmupJunkie You've nailed the clickbait "poggers" face thumbnail there, man.
@@Axel_Kei lol right. Gotta get zem clicks. But it was an actual shot of him in the video so I figured it can’t be click bait if it actually happened lol
Ikeda bless you for testing the may flash stick. I have been warning people about the added lag compared to the brooks ultimate board, but I haven't been willing to buy one to test for myself ha. Also, another warning about the may flash stick is that it advertises itself "easy to mod" (or something like that), but it is actually kind of complicated to mod because it does not use standard Japanese wiring connections, it uses some cheap Chinese wiring (at least on the cheaper models). So you either need to start doing some creative wiring or spend extra money on Japanese wiring connectors.
Also yes, thanks to your video I am going to create a video on how to pad hack that Saturn pad to make yourself a fast and relatively cheap wireless arcade stick! I have been looking to do this for quite a while because I have a spare stick that has no brain ha. Maybe I can even come up with a silly way to mount the switch while I play.
Lastly, it doesn't surprise me that the 8bitdo controller is so slow. I bought myself their snes pad a while back and could tell it was laggy as hell, so I stopped using it. Shame, because the parts are quality.
P.S. Thanks for testing the brooks converter as well. Again, I have been warning people about it adding delay but have been too busy to get around to testing mine. What's funny is that when they released it, they made a claim on their website that they couldn't figure out how to test for its latency ha.
Any time man and I’m looking forward to seeing how your tests look for that Retrobit pad. It’s so difficult to wire some of the newer pads that even a fraction of a mm difference where you place the wire leads can effect the numbers. As much as a quarter to a half frame when I was playing with it. So I’d love another to give a second look at it given how well it tested for me. The sticks are simple and accurate as the bare contact leads are right on the back of the buttons inside.
On the Mayflash I actually disassembled the Sanwa button and attached the lead directly to the metal spring and ball that makes contact, so it has to be right on the money. Luckily I had plenty of old spade connectors from my AV installs so I just rewired the buttons inside vs trying to use their connectors. It’s cheap and easy and I’d recommend that to anyone sticking a universal board inside a Mayflash. I’m willing to bet if I test that board on my PC USB vs the Switch port it would be pretty blazing fast. I think I saw the pork chop express Mister tests of it with amazing performance. I’m willing to bet the board connected to the switch usb is just a good bit slower.
I might just have to buy a RetroBit pad now to hack into a Switch arcade stick. I've been reasonably happy with my Mayflash F500 Elite, but I do want to do a custom build with the Brook board at some point, and try another brand of stick.
@@GameBoyGuru You saw the new video Electric Underground just posted right? It shows how to pad hack the Retrobit pad into your own arcade stick. Not simple like the Brook board and requires soldering but it gives your stick the identical response speed of the pad. I’m going to try it too one day.
@@ShmupJunkie yep, I watched that last night 😁
Awesome. Thanks for doing this video. I have yet to purchase my SWITCH. This info will help alot.
You're welcome and hope you enjoy some of the info in here!
Only up to the first 2 mins so far, but LOL. The skits are getting better and better!
Haha if you liked the beginning now I’m curious to hear what you thought of the ending 😂
That beginning mario going off 🤣🤣🤣
Aaah yes the silly days and Timmy days. He’ll be back for a cameo soon
I love that people these days go to the trouble of documenting down to the fraction of a frame, what exactly the difference between controllers are. And then, wrap it up in a very entertaining video, available to all for free. This sure beats the approximately zero information I had as a kid looking for extra controllers. Took a couple tries to realise unless I'm going first party, it's a dice roll. Thanks madcatz
You’re welcome. I was getting asked a ton to make something like this. And it’s constantly coming in handy as reference as I test new games and collections with them. It came in extremely handy for the new vid tomorrow on Capcom Stadium 2 as it has issues with certain controllers adding much more delay than they should be. If this baseline wasn’t here there would be no way to know.
@@ShmupJunkie oh that's pretty convenient! Chalk up another win.
Super solid video the whole way through. Really important information dispersed while being funny, warm, and friendly. Congrats on another banger dude!! Grabbed the retrobit controller and am really digging it. The dpad reminds me of the astro city mini dpad. Not only is the lag super low, but the dpad feels like its own unique thing, which is an added bonus to shmup play as it makes it an adventure to figure out how to dodge and navigate your way through emerging patterns as compared to an arcade stick feel or a mushier dpad. Might check out the fighting commander later as well.
Glad you found this older vid! Well not that old but old for me. It’s been really useful to a lot of folks. It’s not easy making such a dry subject and numbers entertaining so I really tried. I personally use a real Saturn pad wired with a low latency usb converter whenever I can, and then the Hori FC with the switch. It’s another really nice dpad though a bit different from Saturn. I’m the opposite where I play worse with a stick as I have less practice, so I’m working on improving there. I’m glad this helped you make some good decisions on which to get. For the cheap $25-30 or so they cost they’re quite good.
@@ShmupJunkie I can only imagine how tough it must be. Sounds like you have a great set up. I actually have a friend giving me an original sega saturn controller because I have heard so many good things about it for shmups. Was thinking about grabbing the raphnet converter. Is that the one you use? Also with respect to the stick, I am still not amazing, but was terrible when I started. I found the less I tried to be good and the more I looked at it as something that might be interesting to learn, the more natural it felt. Maybe that could work for you too.
Also I nearly forgot, I added a bat top, a 2lb spring, a kowal actuator, and octagonal restrictor, and an increased tension jlf sanwa stick so that my stick feels closer to a dpad anyway. with more restricted movement. I am terrible with technology and. even I could do those modifications. Hope this helps, my man.
So good😂 Mario cracks me up and had me rolling bro. Came for the shmups and gags, left with some knowledge! Very impressive display of engineering and dedication buddy!
Thank you my dude. I’m glad I could give you some laughs along the way. Next time Mario will need some rehab 😆
@@ShmupJunkie too many mushrooms never helped anyone!
@@jszekerj Shmuprooms 😆
I have that red Hayabusa stick but to me there is too much travel in the stick itself to play shooters... or maybe I’m just not very good using sticks with shooters in general 😂
Anyway, I prefer using the pro-controller, but I will check out that Saturn blu-tooth controller! Great vid.
I’m honestly not a pro with sticks either and play better with a pad from practice. But I’m trying to improve my game with a stick so these will be an opportunity to see which one works for me. I may find the same thing. My go to has always been a Saturn style pad for them.
Yeah the hayabusa stick has too much travel for shmups. Good for fighting games. Not that good for shmups.
Such a great comparison. I'd be really curious to see PS4 vs Switch games in a future comparison video. The main myth out there is that Switch ports perform worse no matter what, with games like Esprade reportedly having more lag on Switch than their PS4 counterparts. So curious if there's any merit to that.
That would be a great test actually. Now with my universal board installed in my f500 I could easily plug it into either console and compare results. Only downside is I have it on switch but not ps4 so I’d have to buy it twice. To satisfy my curiosity 😁. But I just might now 🤔
I'd love to see that!
Another great vid, probably the best one so far. I love my RAP Hayabusa, had mine since release. Would love to see more Switch vids as it’s definitely my fav console by far.
Thanks! I do try to make these useful tech videos once in a while. There’s so many great shmups I do want to highlight on the switch I’m positive I’ll be doing more of them. Especially highlighting some great indie shmups.
Also one other question are you using a low ping monitor like a Lenovo PC 1 ms?
Are you intentionally adding monitor delay or do you not realize that a one millisecond monitor is as close as you get to a CRT TV And you get high definition TV and will play literally any game lag free except for CRT TV base light gun games which require sub microsecond delay times.
Thanks for these measurements! I own a good selection of the higher performing controllers on this list, as I often use them on zero-lag platforms with a CRT, like the MiSTer. However, I wasn't certain how they ranked with the "complete system" setup on Switch using an HDMI display as you've shown here. My Switch HoriRAP is now my "official" shmup-specialised controller for Switch, PC, and MiSTer... I took the Hayabusa stick out of it and replaced it with a short-throw Seimitsu LS-56 and an octo gate. It's no longer as great for fighters, but for shmups.... wow!!!
Considering I rarely play fighting games at home on my own, I may be well off doing the same with my Busa. I still use a Saturn pad most of the time but have been needing to practice and improve using a good stick. Not everyone likes the very short throw buttons on it but I’m good with them, much less effort needed to use them.
Simply outstanding video, my friend! Thanks for doing all this work, Really incredible. The information in here is a gold mine! 🙏🏽🤩 Momma Mia!!!
Hey man! Thx for watching and I’m glad you found the info useful. I know you use your switch plenty for shmups so when not in handheld mode on the patio, there are some good options for an old school wireless pad.
Amazing video, just been laughing for a while now...poor Mario!! This is very relevant info, should've taken some time to get these tests and results my friend!! Now I am seeing my Pro Controller with another eyes hahaha...will definetively try the Retrobit controller asap. On the side note, that fight stick is so beautiful and bad at the same time!! Congrats!!
Thanks dude and glad you got some good laughs. Mario in rehab is gonna have to be the next episode lol. The pro isn’t too bad wireless long as it’s the official one. Was only a half frame slower than the Joycon. It’s just not the best Dpad for older games. The Retrobit BT and the 8bitdo 2.4g both did real nice. I hope some people are able to use the info if they were on the fence about what to get. That Busa is really nice 😁
These videos are so good even Mario is on the Shmup Crack Pipe! Maybe he can star in his own Shmup, Mariodius, M-Type, or Xenon 3 : Marioblast.
Great video mate and quite interesting to see all these comparison and actually quite surprised to see wired controllers getting out performed by wireless variants. Not so much after your previous video but still is something that most expect to be the best performing solution. Loved the skits and and movie references (Pulp Fiction) and Big love for that RAP Hayabusa, it will be mine one day, oh yes....
Great job mate. Roll on next Sunday!
Soon enough Mario will be in SA (shmups anonymous) so hopefully that helps him regulate 😁.
Yeah wired isn’t always what it used to be. USB ports on consoles aren’t designed for gaming as much as charging and other convenience as they know almost nobody will play wired. The PS4 is faster wireless as well just how it goes now. But usb in itself isn’t slow. On a properly set up computer the USB port will be near zero delay.
Really helpful, will be getting the Hayabusa RAP-V based on this!
Just ordered my 8Bitdo M30 2.4g! It's the only affordable one here in my country.
Thank you so much for this video!
No problem. The 2.4g is a good choice better than their Bluetooth model. You should be happy with it 👌
I subscribed. I needed this video thank you.
Welcome! And glad you found it useful. This one was a lot of work but so many people are always asking about Switch controllers with lower input delay I wanted to put it together.
Thanks! Great job. One thing I also take away from this analysis is that lag (if the numbers are relatively small) doesn't matter as mush as many people believe. You've found that controllers commonly perceived as faster aren't so, so there must be a placebo effect working here for the people that swear that they play better due to lower lag. At least in shmups, maybe other games (like fighting games) are difficult to adapt to.
That’s true small fractions of a frame are indistinguishable. It adds up if the overall game is not a great port and itself runs slow, but for Ikaruga as an example no way any but the most sensitive and elite players would notice. Once you start adding a 1.5-2 frame difference some can tell. That’s why I always say don’t focus too much on the lag numbers. It’s a good guide to see which ones to avoid if they are really bad vs others, but anything in this test that was within 1 frame or less of the joycon is likely something near nobody would notice the difference. Always go with the controller you like best. I tried to make a small point of that at the end. Before Mario passed out lol
@@ShmupJunkie Yeah, you made that clear. Comfort >> Small differences in lag. I for one will take the extra lag of my arcade stick + brook converter over a pad. Of course, I could buy a good Switch stick, but I don't think 1 frame of lag can justify the expense... yet.
Woooow what a great video ! The truth is not as expected ! Thank You ! 😎
Very comprehensive video this Junkie, appreciate it took a lot of time and effort. I got the Mayflash 500 elite at the end of last year, but only just seen your lag test now. When I first tried it I got susceptible lag on Switch, but not Noticeable on PS4. I then updated the improved lag performance firmware that came out Nov 2021 and it did feel like it improved it - could all be in my mind of course! 🤣👍
Thanks. I might have missed this information, but what Genesis-to-USB adapter did you use for M30 2.4g? Or do you have the version that comes with a USB 2.4g receiver?
Just found your channel and I am digging it. I was looking up stuff for my old fav shooter Alpha Mission on the NES. Loved that one. More of a horizontal shooter guy here.
Alpha Mission on nes I remember well it’s a classic. How you came across a Mario switch video looking for alpha mission I don’t know 🤣 but who am I to question the almighty RUclips algorithm. It knows best since it sent you my way. I’ve got a ton of shmup content here but I’m due for a good nes shooters video. It’s an old nostalgic favorite of mine too so I want to do it right.
Great info as always. I just bought one of the saturn pads using the links you provided so i hope it helps you out a little bit.
Thanks man! I’m glad you enjoyed the vid and regardless of how small a cut it may be it’s the gesture that counts. Hopefully over time if my channel grows it can become more significant. We all gotta start somewhere 😊
Great review.
I've had good luck with a joy con dpad replacement shell. Seeing those results I'm not missing out on anything with it.
The joycon is definitely the fastest way to play so if you found a solution you like with it, it's the fastest without a doubt.
This video is so valuable. I googled for so long trying to find anything like this. You are the man! I subbed, liked and turned on the notification bell!
I’m really glad you found it useful and is the reason I put it together. Lots of people were always asking for info like this and there was lots of conjecture without any real tests. So I enjoy hearing when people found it so useful, thank you.
I subbed as well. I believe he is the first to do this kind of accurate test for individual controllers. I try to look elsewere but all i see is the original joycom pro controller. With this video, i am now looking and want to buy the retrobit sega. And hori FC.
@@joannetraigo2505 thanks. And for the official joycon it’s not bad when wireless. Nobody will really notice a half frame difference. It just has a poor Dpad for older games. That’s what first made me want to test others. To find a good pad that also performs well. The Hori FC is super solid aside from being wired only. The retrobit mega drive and Saturn pads are nice with my biggest complaint just being the pad on some bottoms out. Like you can push it straight in. The 8bitdo is the same way. My original Saturn pad does not do that. It’s only the newer controllers that do.
Top notch content as always dude! I dont even play shmups, i just enjoy the the humor lol.
Haha well on the plus side at least you won’t end up like Mario here. Or at least not from Shmup addiction. We all have our own version of our crack pipe.
Just ran up on this video (subscribed to you a few weeks ago), and glad I did! I plan on getting a Switch soon, and this controller/stick review is just what I need. Definitely getting that blue retrobit for shooters! I'm also noticing that the Switch and Steam seem to be the go-tos for shooters nowadays, compared to the PS5 and Xbox Series X.
I'm glad you found it then. Performance wise and accurate, it's a good pad. Since I made the review, there have been a handful of reports in terms of quality, where some parts needed replacement due to premature wear on those Retrobit controllers, but mostly anecdotally from what I came across. Just a heads up. I personally really dig the Hori FC and don't mind it being wired. It's solid as a rock and just about as fast as the Retrobit, so I use it a lot and have been happy with it too. PS4 still gets it's share of shooters too, but the Xbox has definitely been the odd one out for a long time.
Great video! where were you all this years? Great reviews and funny content. Keep up man!
Running an audio video business and putting money away so I can screw off and make game videos on RUclips in my old age 😂.
Your show is doing amazing and your viewers are climbing❤❤❤ keep up the fantastic work and much love
Thanks dude! I’m stoked people are enjoying my hard work. Every now and then I try to make a useful tech video like this. I think it helps everybody.
I’m definitely thinking of picking up the s500 elite stick and for sure I’ll use your link. You should be getting paid for your time and work. Thanks so much for all your hard work and amazing videos. I do have a question about the stick. I’ve always used pads except for obviously all my time spent in arcades🤘 but these come with 4 way sticks, do I need an octagonal gate for shmups? I do play some fighting games and I know 4 way is best for those but my true passion is shmups and 90’s ones at that. What do you recommend? Thanks in advance.
I’m certainly no expert on arcade sticks as I play better on a Dpad, but from my understanding it’s all about preference a 4 way works just as well as octagonal. They each feel different for shmups but it’s one of those topics where someone asks and an ugly war of opinions breaks out 😂. The nice thing about the F500 or most is they aren’t hard to modify. The parts for changing out the square for an octagonal gate is cheap. In fact I’m in the processing of discovering my preferred stick and parts as well, so I plan on trying both and pick my preference. There are actually some fighting games players that even like octagonal from things I’ve read. So there is no right answer here besides try both and see what you like best. I think many Shmup players like the Hayabusa and that’s a square gate I believe.
The moral of this story is: Don't let Mario play shmups.
Those are some nice pads though. I look forward to getting an arcade stick of my own. But yeah. I think Mario needs to take a break and play his own games or something.
Poor Mario he just took too big of a hit too quickly 😅. Will see how often he ends up passed out in my game room in future videos haha.
Hopefully this at least showed which stick you may find interesting. I really like the arcade board and building your own. That’s a pretty nice option. If they can get it even faster on the switch it would be a no brained for anyone that can DIY it
I don't even have, neither plan to purchasing a Switch! But I as always I watched to the end, with pleasure. Good jobba!
Glad you enjoyed it then. I tried to spice it up a bit with the Mario angle. 😆 Next time he’ll have to be in rehab.
@@ShmupJunkie Glad my daughter didn't see this episode. She likes Mario sooo much. X-D
I always knew he was a junkie.
@@bartek.szuster I’m glad she didn’t. Hoping Nintendo doesn’t either 🤣
So glad I found your RUclips channel man that Saturn controller is beautiful I really want it just for the comfort factor
Glad you found me and that this old video is still getting some use. Saturn style pad is still my old favorite so I use them whenever I'm able too for that dpad. Saves my thumb a whole lot of soreness.
After much debate between the two sticks I went with the Hori and used your link. I should have it in Tuesday.
You still found a Busa for sale that quickly? Nice I'm glad they are still up for sale, as I know it takes a while to make sometimes. As long as you don't mind it being Switch exclusive, as I know many look for a stick they can use across all their consoles, it's hard to go wrong with it. Some people change out the gate for shmups, but I'm not good enough with an arcade stick yet to get that deep with it. I still play best using my Saturn pad.
@@ShmupJunkie I kept going back and forth between that and the mayflash 500 elite. In the end the Busa was just too sexy. I may mod it in the future to use with other systems but right now the switch is getting the most love.
Amazing work, I appreciate all the time and money that went into this, thank you! I’m surprised the brook wireless board didn’t beat the wired RAP, but they are very close and the expanded compatibility and wireless is a solid trade. I have a fighting commander for PS4 and it’s really nice, so I’ll probably grab that switch one (using your link of course) for 2d games in general. It also is one of the best controllers for MiSTer! BTW, small point, your spreadsheet headers say “ms” when they should say “frames” i think
Also interesting to see the Retro-bit Saturn BT relative performance be so much better in the Switch environment than the MiSTer environment.
@kwentn Thanks man. It was a lot of work wiring them especially but it’ll be good data I hope for everyone. I’ll bet the brook board is fastest direct into a PC I may test it one day soon for my curiosity. Either way they’re both fast enough for me personally. Maybe in time they can improve the BT connection to the switch as I also expected it. Was surprised when both wired and wireless tested near identical.
I never used the Hori FC before and I have to say I really liked the feel. I’m going to use it some more for some of my sessions vs my Saturn pad. Thx for the heads I’ll check the sheet I didn’t have much time to proofread it. I used frames for the avg latency since it’s what most people can relate to vs looking at ms and not knowing how to decipher that. But on the min and max I just left it as ms since it’s more just useful data to see the overall range it tested in.
I think amazon pays 1% for affiliate link purchases so all I need is 100 people to buy each one and I made my money back 🤣. Seriously though the gesture is always appreciated whenever you do. I’ll find a way to make it sustainable overall one way or another.
@kwentn the Saturn BT surprised me too I had to retest it. I asked Mark from EU to test it as well when he gets his as I want to see if something on my end is off. Overall it doesn’t surprise me how it may work better with one device vs another. The Mister doesn’t have wireless itself so whatever dongle is used for the connection would play a factor too.
great video! very informative and I love the skits!
Lol I’m glad you had fun with it. I’m just trying to take a dry subject like numbers and help make it more entertaining. Mario may be back soon for another episode 🤣
I know this video is like 2years old, but this was just very interesting to me.. Thanx for testing all this out... Im already looking for that SEGA Genesis pad :)) Well then i assume the 'fastest' way to play on Switch is by playing on the Switch Light since the controles are attached directly to the Switch.. some data on the Hori Split Pad Pro would be interesting aswell..
One controller missing from this that I feel needs mentioning is the Pokken Tournament Controller. It has become my controller of choice for 2D games and shmups on the switch.
It looks a bit weird but it feels excellent to hold. I’ve had no issues with precision while using it. Very good d-pad.
I’ve been told that some people even use it for Tekken 7 on PS4 as the game recognizes it as a BandaiNamco approved controller.
I've had a couple others mention it too as a really good one. I don't have one to wire up unfortunately, but if I ever come across one, or someone decides to donate it to the testing gods I will gladly wire it up and see how it performs. I don't doubt it's very similar to other current pads of the same brand. So since it's Hori, I would expect pretty similar to it's wired Fighting Commander, which performed extremely well.
I know that's how it is in the arcade, but at home I can't play shmups with a stick at all. The amount of effort and travel distance vs using a dpad is just too great, and I notice a huge performance dropoff switching from a controller to a stick. Weirdly the opposite for fighting games though.
I’ve always been a dpad player so I definitely understand. I play worse with a fight stick in most scenarios. My Saturn pad is my comfort blanket.
Good video note though that the Mayflash F500E got a firmware update, supposedly reducing the input lag to 1ms! it can be downloaded on their website.
Just 2 more minutes. Just what i used to say as a kid! Ha. Bought a retrobit controller after watching your video for when i travel with my switch. So thanks!
Lmfaoo I forgot to comment on this video but this is funny and very informative. You are a legend
HA! Hey what's up man. Good seeing you here. Thanks I had some laughs making it as I often do with the dumb characters, crappy accent and all.
Mario has a Fighting Stick PC?! Beautiful! I wonder how it compares to the Hori Fighting Stick Multi. Got one of those because it connects to PCE, MD/Genesis and SNES. I love that old hardware.
I can totally recommend the Hori RAPV, it is very solid and has a good size. Works very good with PC and Switch. There is just one important thing bothering me, but this is personal preference: the buttons have a very low resistance and short travel distance. They react on slightest contact. I swapped them with buttons having a bit more resistance, so I could rest my fingers on them.
Thanks for this great test!
I noticed that too on the RapV the buttons had a very short travel. I haven’t used it enough yet to see if I like that. It feels nice but I can see how just the slightest touch would activate them. The Hori FC pad has that too but the buttons are solid enough to where you can’t trigger them by accident.
That Hori stick for PCE is amazing most serious caravan players at the time used it. It’s world class. I know a couple people that even modded it farther but mine is stock. They are metal and rust over time so it’s hard to find one in good shape. I really like the joystick on it though. I still see them on eBay from time to time.
Nice video! An idea for a future video is checking how distance and household obstacles influence controller reception and latency. I feel the joycons get sketchy very fast if you move a bit away from the console, in a bigger living room.
Oh you're right on the money with distance. The Joycon range is pretty poor. I've never tested it proper but anecdotally. We keep the switch in another room from where we play, and I had to use a pro controller (which has much better distance) to not constantly drop out. I was on the other side of a wall, more than just a big room, but it definitely didn't do well. It was unusable where my PS4 and Xbox controllers work fine. The pro controller to it's credit had no such problems.
Now I've been looking at this twice since it didn't look right, it seems your so called Saturn controller actually is the Retro-Bit Mega Drive BT controller and not the Saturn controller. Is the internals the same on the Retro-Bit Mega Drive and Saturn BT controller?
Thank you so much for noticing that! With the mad rush I completely had that mislabeled in the video as the Saturn style pad when the Blue controller is the Genesis variant. 🙈 I even had the correct Genesis image thumbnail on the screen, but had it labeled as Retrobit Saturn. I just put a big correction note in my description and fixed the pinned comment as well. I did look at the internals again and I'd be surprised if they used a different BT between the two, but to satisfy my own curiosity too and confirm I'm going to wire up the black Saturn BT pad now and confirm they perform the same. Thanks for bringing that up when you noticed it, as with the mad rush to edit and get the video up in time I totally missed that I labeled it the Saturn pad. I have a bad habit of calling them both "Saturn" pads, referring to the actual Dpad on the controller as on the Retrobit, the actual DPads between them are the same. So I always say I love the Saturn style pad, referring to the Dpad itself, but they are different controllers with slightly different form factors and top trigger buttons as well. So thanks again for catching that. I'll update my description again once I wire up the other pad and confirm it.
@@ShmupJunkie Shit happens. ;D Thx for confirming. Just wanted to be sure since I intend to do a padhack for one of my old arcade controllers. Loved everything else with the video.
Do you know if latency changes when several inputs are used at the same time? Feels like more data sent could alter the results depending on protocol. I have several BT/2.4G controllers where they work great but suddenly get lag spikes and miss/delay inputs, but may be really hard to actually try. Lower input lag on one button press should after all mean lower input lag overall.
Recently found your channel and love the humour and positive attitude without screaming like everybody else on RUclips. Keep on rockin.
@@GillPinball you’re right it would be hard to try and get consistent results. Without actually testing that, my best guess would be two reasons for added latency. It wouldn’t be bandwidth as the minuscule amount of data sent by a controller even several is well below what you could send over the connection. Especially 2.4g. More likely it’s possible overall interference between them especially with different brands used simultaneously. The second and even more likely is the game itself, as having to do multiple players or especially split screen may add processing time to the game itself. It may run slower in multiplayer overall which wouldn’t be surprising. Maybe not in most fighting games but I can see it for a platformer or Shmup... or especially split screen FPS games. If there are actual missed inputs though like you mention to where it’s noticeable that would almost definitely point to RF interference and not just input delay. My two cents without actually testing it.
Very interesting and informative! I am currently looking to buy a good arcade stick for my switch as I have almost exclusively arcade games on it, would have liked to see the 8bitdo stick to compare with the Mayflash as i was pretty much hesitating between these two… to be honest I didn’t think there was that much latency with these things when you consider all the lag from the tv, the console, the usb ports etc… Anyhow, fantastic job you did there as this is the most in-depth video I have seen yet on this subject! Cheers!
Can we get an update video on the Mayflash F500 Elite with the latest firmware? Apparently they have improved the lag a lot with updates!
I don't know if I will have time soon to make a dedicated video for it, I'd need to have a good bunch of new controllers to test. But I will definitely test it for myself and if it really is a big improvement, I can post the results here in the video description and top comment. As well as get the word out in my community tab so people know. I'm curious myself to see the improvement.
Another excellent video, interesting, funny and complete 👏
Thank you my friend. If I can be either useful or funny I’ve accomplished my mission. Both is a bonus 😅
Keep up the great work! I really need to get around to ordering a HRAP Hyabusa...
It did really well in this test! I'm not an expert on arcade sticks but from the short amount of time I have used it so far it feels pretty great. It's just massive!
@@ShmupJunkie ... that’s what she said. Sorry, I couldn’t help posting that. 😂
@@Reluctant_Hero not being an expert on sticks? Or about it being massive. Hopefully both ; )
Heh, a LaserActive.....don't see those too often.
Dang you spotted the laseractive just hanging out down there! I didn’t even realize it was in the shot while I was filming. I’m trying to get the MD module repaired it’s not easy finding someone local to do that. Haven’t wanted to ship that thing it’s too valuable.
@@ShmupJunkie I see cap kits for these are sold on Ebay. I wish I didn't sell my unit. Had the Genesis and the NEC pack along with the 3d glasses (was there anything released for those) and quite a few games. But I needed the money to eat. :(
@@spootdev even with the cap kits, it’s the insane labor. The mega drive module had over 300! supposedly and it’s extremely delicate and specialized work. Very very few even work on it anymore. I did find one local person but with COVID everything went on the back burner.
What about the Switch light? How fast are the integrated controlls? What about plugin in a usb controller directly into the Switch without a docking station?
I really like the Pokken Controller. Made by Hori and has an excellent Dpad.
I've had a few people mention that one as very good. If I ever did another round or had one I would try and test it. Though I'd expect it would be very similar to some other Hori stuff I tested which had good results.
Hi,great video thank a lot ! :) Can you test the ''Brook Zero-Pi Fighting Board '' please !!!!
Thanks! Unfortunately I don’t own that board. Anyone willing to send me one I’ll be happy to test and return though.
@@ShmupJunkie i will send you a message on facebook
Awesome video, thanks!! Out of curiosity, have you had a chance to try the latest Brook Wingman NS? I read somewhere (can't find the source anymore) that input lag has been improved, but would be curious to see actual timings.
Actually no, I have never tried or used the Wingman so I have no idea. If I ever get my hands on one I will gladly wire one up and test it. Most Brooke products usually perform pretty well so I don't expect too much of a difference from other good Brooke products.
Great video! This I think now proves that using usb-connection with Switch doesn't automatically add 1 frame lag and neither it is a zero-extra lag option, it also depends on the controller. My biggest surprises: 1) Hori hayabusa stick to be as fast it was as I have had one for couple of years and while it feels fine, it doesn't feel that special (I wonder has there been some firmware improvements since I bought mine?) 2) M30 BT version being so slow compared as I have one of those as well and it feels really good what comes to input lag 3) Brook wireless board not being faster than wireless hori hayabusa stick (saves some money for me as well as now I don't need to get the brooks wireless board installed on my hori hayabusa stick in hope to get less input lag) 4) Retrobit saturn BT version being as fast (now I have to get one, even I don't think the build quality is as good as with the 8bitdo pads)
You’re pretty much right on the money here. On the switch USB port I showed that in my last video too, that it’s USB port isn’t just 1 frame but closer to half. And can vary by controller. Yes the Busa got good numbers same as the Hori FC. Doesn’t mean everyone will love the stick I still need to use it more myself, but it did get solid numbers yes. I was honestly also surprised by the fast BT numbers I got on the Retrobit vs some others and retested it a few times. But it kept getting good results. And on the M30 the slow results made me retest, but it jived with some other results out there. Their 2.4g pad was great though and really fast. But overall your conclusion is exactly right and what I was going for. Aside from a few outliers they were all quite close to each other. And I’d personally pick the one I like best and feels best to play, not just by the result. If you like the feel of the 8bitdo vs Retrobit I’d go with that. The 2.4g was so close to the Retrobit you’d not notice the difference likely. And it’s pad is just as good if not more solid feeling. Personally for me the controller feels a bit small in my hands because I’m used to real Saturn pads all the time. So it’s just my preference. Any of those controllers that tested less than a frame vs the joycon I wouldn’t kick out of bed 😆
I was also surprised by the wireless on the Brooke being same as wired. At least on switch. That’s why we test. But keep in mind that’s just switch. The wired connection may be way faster on other consoles or a PC. I’ve seen it tested elsewhere on a MiSter wired where it’s blazing fast almost no extra delay at all.
Thanks so much for making this video - extremely informative stuff! I had a BT M30 and loved the build quality but thought something felt a bit 'off' compared to the official pro controller, and your data backs up my intuition. Looks like I'll be buying a 2.4g version soon..
Do you have any plans to run the same tests with any of the controllers released after this video, such as the 8bitdo Pro 2 or the Mega Drive/Genesis NSO controller?
I'm really glad it helped and confirmed what you felt. Something about the BT 8bitdo is off and adds too much delay. I would certainly do more one day, but I just don't have a whole bunch of new controllers to work with laying around. It was pricey picking up so many just for a single video, but part of them were controllers I already owned. I'd need volunteers to send in a lot of controllers to get wired and tested.
Superb video (and I don't even own a Switch). Biggest surprise for me was Retro-bit's Genesis BT option outperforming their 2.4g one. I didn't think that was even possible. Thanks again for all you do.
It surprised me too! They are very very close. I think it’s the extra delay from the switch usb connection that makes it just a bit slower. Otherwise they’d be almost dead even. My margin of error here is at least 1/4 frame. My biggest surprise was the 8bitdo Bluetooth being as slow as it was. It wasn’t until I found that RetroRGB old test that kind of confirmed my same results.
@@ShmupJunkie Are you familiar with Porkchop Express AKA MiSTerAddons and his spreadsheet of lag tested controllers? It's not Switch focused (obviously) but his methodology is sound and it might prove as useful as what you found on Bob's site. Anyway, from what I understood from when I looked at it (admittedly a while ago) the 8bitdo 2.4g and Krikzz Joyzz controllers were up there with the very best performing.
@@Fattydeposit Yes I am I’ve got a link to his spreadsheet. His testing is very extensive and he runs many more passes than I’m able to along with under 1ms accuracy it looks like. Really valuable test data. The 2.4g 8bitdo did great on my test as well although I didn’t have the Krikzz to test. Since it’s already been tested I’m sure it would’ve done just as well. I keep an eye on his spreadsheet and updates.
@@ShmupJunkie Great stuff. Keep up the great work but take care of yourself. The work you put into these videos is clearly immense.
@@Fattydeposit ha thanks. It very much is. I will slowly look into other styles of videos I can make that people will also enjoy but slightly less demanding on my part. Mixed in with my usual which I really enjoy. I’m slowly figuring it out as I go along. And thank you for the support it’s all of that which keeps me going.
Anything should be better than the joycon especially when joycon drift comes into the equation. I guess Mario is chilling at your place after all the abuse he has taken from the 35th Anniversary.
Ha yeah even he didn’t want to play his own release again 😁. My joycon unfortunately has also drifted. Which is why I butchered that one up for these tests. So it’s sacrifice wasn’t in vain.
Excellent video; your tests were very thorough, and I hope they inspire others to do the same with different controllers. A community-managed lag database would be my hope so that people know what the best options are.
Quick question: when you tested out the Bluetooth Retrobit controller, were you using the updated firmware that added additional button macros? I would hope that updates wouldn't affect the input lag, but I just wanted to be certain.
I want to pad hack 1 controller that works with PC Engine mini and Genesis Mini. Does that M30 work with both?
Hi Shmup Junkie, great video! Been enjoying your videos for a while but I have a question: on the first test for the retro-bit Bluetooth controller you say it’s the Saturn version but shows a picture and you using the Mega Drive version.. can you confirm that both retro-bit Mega Drive and Saturn Bluetooth controllers perform the same? Thanks in advance, just want to buy the right version😁🤘🏻
Yes, sorry about that. I mixed up the signage and what I was testing, but I did in fact test the Saturn controller as well and they both performed the same in terms of Bluetooth. At least they did at the time. The problem with all this stuff is you never know what changes over the years. New manufacturers, different components made cheaper to cut costs, etc. It's always a toss up. But it's the best we can do without testing them constantly and every new revision. At least when I did, both the Retrobit BT controllers performed great.
@@ShmupJunkie cheers for the reply👍🏻I know what you’re saying about newer revisions etc, but now I’m just going to buy either one of them as I’ve seen good deals for both online. Your reply was helpful either way so thank you, appreciate you taking the time🤘🏻
Just a quick follow up to say thanks Shmup Junkie, I bought a Saturn retro-bit pad and i’m over the moon with it! I’m a mad Saturn fan and have always loved the Saturn pads (they’re the GOAT), and this is making 2D gaming on the Switch a joy. I was sceptical about lag, being a 3rd party controller but your review/comments made me dive in. Now I don’t know how I managed so long without it. Cheers very much mate🤘🏻
Another great video as usual. Guess I'm getting one of those genesis pads.
Either that or the 8bitdo 2.4g M30 they were both really close within my margin of error. Whichever you find more comfortable. The M30 feels slightly more solid vs the looser Saturn style buttons on the Retrobit, but they are both good. I am just so used to playing on a Saturn pad it's my go to form factor.
@@ShmupJunkie me too. Love the comfort of a Saturn pad.
My 8bitdo M30 2.4g arrived through the post today, wow what a great d-pad, so much easier to play now I’m rid of the joycons, might order a second in case it breaks
Just about anything is a nice upgrade from that terrible dpad on the Joycon, but the 8bitdo is definitely nice and solid feeling. I use mine playing on my Mini consoles as well. They're so cheap there's not harm in grabbing an extra I agree. I lost count how many random pads I have laying around now from all this testing!
Thank you, this video was amazing and is the definitive video for deciding on a shmup pad for switch!
I'm leaning towards the Retrobit Genesis/Saturn pad after your glowing recommendation, but can I ask what makes you enjoy the Saturn controller so much for shmups? Is it the dpad?
Yes, it's absolutely the Dpad. I can use it for hours at a time and not have it wear out my thumb and make it raw. And it's also much more accurate for older games designed for them. The 8bitdo has a very nice dpad as well. So does the Hori Fighting Commander actually which is my main go-to controller personally, as it's more solid feeling being a bit pricier and wired vs the Retrobit. For wired controllers it rocks. It's the default pad on the Joycon and the Pro that are just meh. They are all useable of course, but once you use it a lot for older games you start to want a nicer pad.
@@ShmupJunkiethanks for the crazy quick reply! Hmm... I'm mostly interested in playing games like Darius collection, Ikaruga, and M2 Shottriggers series. In that case, would you recommend the Fighting Commander over the Retrobit? The cross dpad is quite different from the circular pad of the saturn.
I come from PlayStation background so I'm new to this "good" dpad thing lol.
As far as wires, I don't care about wireless or not, I sit pretty close to the TV ;)
Thanks again for your help and your passion. Your channel has quickly become one of my favs here on YT!!!
Very nice and informative video thank you so much, im searching for this kind of stuff. Would be awesome if you would do this kind of test to compare the Switch best lag (joycons) vs the PS4 best lag (probably DS4) on a few same games, not necessarily shmup games because its just to compare the base lag on this 2 consoles.
You’re welcome. Fyi the PS4 stock Bluetooth controllers are smoking fast. The fastest of the generation. If you’re looking for performance with the stock controls the ps4 is king.
@@ShmupJunkie oh thanks nice to hear. I m very sensitive about lag, and i have a game (street of rage 4) on the 2 systems and to me, it respond faster on PS4, like a good frame faster. Its probably the case in general then
@@vsavjim4426 PS4 will always be faster it’s simply a faster console. Plus the extra controller response helps. If playing portable isn’t a priority then going ps4 is always the safe bet.
Awesome content. Very useful!
Thanks 😊 🙏
Great video; kinda surprised that you didn't test the snes official wired controller that's a Nintendo online exclusive. It has a great d-pad..
Thanks I did try to hit as many as I could. There was a few I just wasn’t able to get in time. But if you have one you’d like to donate I’d be happy to wire it up and test it for you 😁
Awesome video! I'd be interested in seeing a re-test of the F500 now that it's had a few firmware updates from Mayflash that are supposed to cut down on latency
It would be easy enough for me to retest it yes, since I still have it. I would be curious too and didn't know about all the updates. I'll see if I can try it in the next few days. If I do see a huge difference I'll try to find this comment again and report back.
Able to find out anything?
I always thought wired controller had zero lag (beside the mechanical, pushing the button...)
Depends on the controller. Some basic ones have near zero yeah. But not all because they also have internal electronics. Especially if they are universal like the Mayflash F500 I tested. Everything goes through it’s own board and processing first which adds some delay. The big factor is the console USB port also. Bluetooth is direct to console communication and bypasses the USB bus and processing. That’s why the Joycon is so fast too. On a PC different story. Direct USB can be near zero lag.
Thanks!
You're welcome. And thank you for contributing, glad you found it helpful.
Dude I am checking out this video after you suggested it to me in the comments of another video and THANK YOU for an indepth review that explains all this CLEARLY. The thing that got me most interested here was the HORI arcade stick, the thing that got me least interested was the price. I'm Canadian dude and man we pay more up here... That being said I wanted to ask if you know anything about the 8BitDo Arcade Stick? I saw a video on it recently and it seems to be damn good for the price you pay. I do NOT have the knowledge and experience that you do with controllers so I just wondered what your 2 cents was. I am definitely thinking of using it for my shooters and fighting games. Also HORI Mini Arcade Stick? Is that decent for the shooter junkie fix? :) Later dude!
I've heard good things about the regular 8bitdo stick too but I don't own one myself. But I have no idea about their mini stick at all. Since I already have so many... so I never tested or used one. I don't think I've ever seen the mini stick actually.
@@ShmupJunkie Dude no problem and thanks for a fast reply...wow you get points for that! Nice to hear that an authority gamer/reviewer is hearing what I'm hearing on the 8BitDo. I trusted you on all those TurboGrafX games I bought so I'll trust you hear too! Thanks again and just gotta say THANKS for showing me Lords Of Thunder!!! That still blows my mind with how perfect a shooter it is, level design, controls and music. That game is 10/10!
@@mitchtaylor177 I’ll be honest too I’m mostly a console gamer vs arcade. So I’m very much a pad player and use my Saturn pad for 95% of my gaming. So I’m not a huge stick expert and use them mainly for more modern shmups and some bullet hell. So there’s better people to ask about best arcade sticks. But I’ll tell you without hesitation the OG Saturn pad is amazing.
@@ShmupJunkie Same the arcade stick is kind of a curiosity for me that is growing so I'm researching. I liked what you talked about during the Saturn section...that Dpad looks suited to fighting games and the price is very much OK even up here in the frozen north.
I really enjoy your videos. Great content and awesome collection but for me there is one big flaw. I can't watch your videos I have to listen to them, the way yoz move your hands the whole time makes my eyes dizzy in a cetain way i only know from looking at a screen for too long. Never had this before. But still enjoying the content. Greetings from Vienna
Ha! I’ve never heard that one before. It’s like playing an FPS game and getting motion sick? That happens to me sometimes. I can’t help it I think it’s just natural to me when I’m on camera. At least hopefully you’re able to watch the gameplay parts of the videos which are more important anyway 😁.
@@ShmupJunkie i am and it not allways 🤣 but great content and your collection is awesome. Never had those games as a kid and your videos are a great way to get them on my radar.
4 frames input lag is a lot. Thats FOUR of Zangiefs Spinning Piledrivers. Also the general retrobit online shilling is just annoying at this point. The actual quality of the retrobit pad is far worse than people give it credit for.
I’m not sure what you mean about 4 frames input lag. All my lag results here are total like I showed at the start. It’s the controller, plus the game itself, plus my display. No controller by itself has that much. 3-4 frames total for any game on a modern system is excellent. For comparison 3 frames is about what you’ll get on most Saturn shmups playing on a CRT in total.
So this test was just showing the controller performance vs the Joycons. And for the most part they all did pretty well. I’ll agree with you on the build quality on the Retrobit it feels a bit plastic and loose but didn’t seem to effect me using it. I actually preferred the feel of the Hori FC in my hands. And the 8bitdo feels more solid too. But I wasn’t really reviewing them here I’m not a controller guru I just wanted to show the numbers. It just happened that the Retrobit BT got the best numerical results. And I personally just like original Saturn pads it’s what I use whenever I can. I don’t watch a lot of other online stuff yet I didn’t realize there is a lot of shilling for their pads in general.
Junkie, the Bluetooth Genesis pad is currently very cheap and I'm considering getting it, however, is the Bluetooth Saturn version as good (do you know)?
Are you talking about the Retrobit pads? I've had good experience with both of them yes. Some have reported some quality issues over time with the pad, but not mine specifically. For how incredibly cheap they are it's understandable. But the performance has always been good.
@@ShmupJunkie thanks! Might get the Saturn version then 🙂
After using the Hori stick for a few weeks I made some changes. The square gate had to go, not too bad for shmups but I also play fighters. I replaced it with the kowal octopus octagonal gate. The stick is also a little loose because of the spring this is one I do not mind in fighters but causes me to move more then I want to in shmups. So I replaced the spring with a 2lb tension spring for Sanwa jlf, it fits the Hori. I also wanted to activate the switches earlier so I bought a kowal 1mm oversize actuator, also for the jlf but fits the Hori. Now the stock feels a lot better playing shmups. Now to buy that Saturn pad...
At least you know the base wired performance on the Hori stick is solid and fast, so you’re not investing in something with a lot of extra lag. The Saturn pads aren’t perfect like the original but they do perform pretty fast and for the cheap price kind of hard to beat.
Ok cool. According to my taste I should go with a RAPV, but I’m still also looking for a good PS3/PS4 stick...A multisystem RAPV should be the perfect answer! Congrats Mario for your Italian accent, great!😆😆👍
Congrats on my terrible accent? 😅 my wife said I sound like an old Italian man haha. That fighting board I tested did pretty darn good. And I’ll bet on ps3/4 it may test even faster. Or on a computer especially. I’m going to run a future test soon using that same stick and board switch vs PS4 and see how it really compares on both.
I use the Hyabusa a lot...and the 8bit do gbros adapter with wii classic controllers connected...mainly so i didnt have to buy new pads!
I never used a Busa until I got it for this video. I really like the feel of the short throw buttons. I am going to try it back and forth vs the F500 and see which I end up preferring. It was really fast though I was pleased to see it as lots of people like it. So the 8bitdo adapter for wii is a 2.4g model right?
@@ShmupJunkie the Gbros is bluetooth it came out so people could connect gamecube controllers to Switch (Smash players)...but has a wii controller port too so you could use the nes/snes classic (and wii) controllers with it..quite cheap too worth checking out. Hyabusa is good I have seimitsu buttons and stick in it but the stock buttons were low profile/fast...quite good! ruclips.net/video/hjLSRO5Xrgg/видео.html
Excellent video as usual. I've been exploring some options myself. I have some cheaper joycons to use w my flip grip that KIND of have a better Dpad but they kept dropping inputs and having little lag spurts that wouldn't be noticable if I wasn't trying to play Shmups! Going back to the joycons was such a stark difference that the difference in timing had me running into bullets because my brain was trying to dodge a couple frames too early. I guess the only way to play a flipgrip is with the stock joycons... On the TV I actually use a 8bitdo Gbros controller connected to a official Nintendo SNES mini pad. This is wireless. I also have the 8bitdo USB controller adapter to use with PS4, XB1, WiiU pads. Id love a follow on video with these convertors if possible. Many of my friends use them so they don't have to buy that super expensive pro controller and use one of the many controllers we all have lying around anyways haha
I also have the retrobit saturn WIRED pads which on their second gen revision have native switch support. Used that to play through streets of rage 4, but after watching your older video I felt wireless was the way to go - now I gotta absorb this new content 🤣
Hey man thanks. Yeah I did this a while ago it seemed to be helpful to a lot of folks. I’m sure I’ll do a follow up one day once there are enough new options to try or any other new updates. I actually don’t own the gbros controller or any of the mini pads. If you know anyone that has a beat up extra or one they don’t use anymore and want to send it my way I’d be happy to test it for them. I’ll eventually sell the controllers and sticks I don’t use and buy up some new ones like that to test though based on requests. That wired hori FC pad has worked well for me too it’s fast and I like the feel of it and the pad.
@@ShmupJunkie I may pick up that Hori pad soon! Yeah this is all fantastic information if there's enough to make another video, great but even if not this video is plenty. The whole flip grip having to deal w specifically split wireless joycons has been the thing that I've been grappling with myself - it's such a niche privelege to be able to play Crimzon clover on a couch haha :)
Great info on this one buddy! Hey, look into Cronusmax. I bought one years back & it may work for the Hayabusa Stick, to be able to use on other systems other than the Switch?
I’ll take a look! I’m not familiar with it but would certainly be interesting to check out and maybe even test.
I am completely stunned that wired and 2.4 Ghz controllers can be slower then bluetooth. I knew about the 8bitdo bluetooth M30 being slower then the 2.4 Ghz M30. I regret buying that, i surely notice some lag. When playing on Pi emulated and Oled TV (lots additional lag) the games are almost unplayable. Really ruins the experience.
2.4g is normally faster than BT in most cases. The M30 BT is just kind of an odd one out. But that USB wired connection on most consoles is what offsets the better speed. On both switch and PS4 the direct BT is faster then their wired ports. I think they assume 99% will play wireless so their wired ports are optimized for other things. The wired port on a PC or MisTer etc are blazing fast by comparison and can add near nothing. But yeah on modern consoles their USB ports always seem to add some delay.
I always loved the Saturn controller for shmups. Always felt very precise and reliable. I played hundreds of hours of Radiant Silvergun with one, but still never 1 cc'd the game... that was more me than the controller though.
BTW, this could have had a "flashing images" warning at the beginning of the vid. The screen flickering was pretty intense.
The beginning with Mario? I didn’t see any flashing what part was that? I wonder if it’s the RUclips stream doing something weird as I don’t see it.
I’m with you on the Saturn pad. I’m so used to it now it’s hard to use others. Just not as comfortable and it wears on my thumb faster. I pretty much got a low latency USB adapter for my actual OG Saturn controller now and use it anywhere I can.
@@ShmupJunkie No, when you're doing the tests for the response delay on the controller buttons. I could imagine that staring to see what's going on in the game, with the extreme screen flicker could be an issue for some folks. I'm not sensitive to such things, but even I couldn't watch full-screen.
@@arupian666 oh that. Yeah I’ve been making those windows smaller now like in my Capcom video since actually looking at them up close doesn’t really tell you much it’s just a representation. Playing back at that slow speed has a flicker effect. I can mention it in future videos just in case and add a description here (though nobody ever reads descriptions 😅). It’s the first time someone said that so thanks for the heads up.
@@ShmupJunkie No worries mate. Just wouldn't want to see you sued or some such nonsense because it triggered a seizure in someone.
What about having controllers directly on the Switch in handheld mode?
Am I missing something, the 8bitdo 2.4g isnt compatible with switch I thought.
The M30 2.4g I tested absolutely works with Switch. I didn’t know there was something out there that said it didn’t. And their 2.4g is faster than their BT I usually recommend it when people ask me about 8bitdo, to go with their 2.4 if they have the option.
@@ShmupJunkie Oh ok thanks, I thought the switch wouldn't connect with a 2.4 controller only a bluetooth one. My mistake, thanks :)
Hi where can i get a poster like that (r-type) at the beginning of the video ?
I don’t think you can unfortunately. It’s a limited print I bought from an artist years ago and don’t think he sells them as posters. Too bad as I’d bet he would sell a good few!
@@ShmupJunkie do you remember his name? btw, I really like your videos! good job and thanks for the reply
@@szmyta666 I feel bad as I was trying to recall but it’s been a few years and completely slipped my memory. As I wanted to let you know the artist. I’m going to try and find him as he does a lot of game art and has other awesome work. So I want to remember for myself too.
Seriously folks, shmup habits are no joke.
Once an addict becomes shmup dependent they very quickly lose all basis in the maintenance of normal life. Their work suffers, relationships fall apart, the user will start stealing their loved ones' game-controllers....It gets ugly.
That very first high-score is such a buzz that they spend their lives trying to achieve the same high-score, and no matter how hard they try, the first high-score is always the best. It's just a question of basic human biology; The user builds up a tolerance so that no subsequent high-score is ever QUITE the same as that first time. But they continue to chase it regardless, again and again...
Many addicts will even get their partners hooked so that they can continue to feed their habits without anyone trying to keep them on the level. Many a well-meaning loved one has joined their addicted partner in a quick 2 player game of Aero Blasters and never recovered.
If you know someone close to you who is suffering from shmup addiction, the only thing you can do is be kind, understanding, but always be sure to remind them that life is prescious, and they only have 3 of them plus continues.
This has been a public health advisory message from SHIT (Shmup Heads International Trust)
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Dude if only I had that schpeel when making this video I could’ve used it at the end as a Shmup advisory. Brilliant. I’m going to save this if you don’t mind and if I can ever work it on somewhere you’re getting full credit. Nice work 💪
@@ShmupJunkie Not a problem. All my jokes are belong to you.
Unfortunately my controllers weren't featured, being the PDP Faceoff and Gamecube controller adapter from Nintendo, but considering they're wired it's probably about time I upgrade to something like the Retrobit.
Yeah I was mainly trying to focus on Shmup oriented pads and sticks with good Dpads. But I do want to test more and keep adding to the database. If people ever want to send old controllers my way I will gladly test them too 😁.
ok I'll sub!
What do you think of the 8bitdo Arcade Stick for the Switch?
Anybody know what the lag time is for the official Nintendo Switch SNES/NES wireless controllers ?
What do you think of the Hori mini fighting stick for switch?
I don’t own it and haven’t used it so I can’t say honestly. I’ve just had pretty good luck with Hori products in general in terms of performance. They’ve been around forever, even back in the 80s and made the original pc engine competition stick I still use!
@@ShmupJunkie Thank you for the fast and kind reply ! I'm goin to give it a try then, since it doesn't cost much:)! Thank you. Happy New Year!!
Hi, Mayflash have release a firmware update for the F500 that they claim improves the delay - do you know if anyone knows how it compares now with this update?
I don't know anyone who has tested, but I will give it a try next time I get a chance and we will know for sure!
@@ShmupJunkie I would also love to hear about input lag on Mayflash 500 Elite with new firmware
17:20 me when someone says first
😂 an adrenaline shot for every sub
Do you think Official Nintedo Switch SNES Controller (wireless) would have same ammount of lag as Switch Pro Controller?
So far ever controller has a little or more compared to the joycon. But how much there’s no way to know without testing it directly.
I'll have to challenge your claim that the BT Retro-Bit Saturn pad is the best one.
I had a session with it just now and I got some lag spikes here and there while playing Devil Engine and Crimzon Clover on Switch.
It could be just BT interference because I tested it on a lunch break at work where many customers have BT-enabled devices themselves.
Definitely check it out more and let me know if you keep having issues with it. I only tested direct input delay like you saw and not long term use or things like distance or interference. There are just too many factors with wireless and BT that could alter the results. I was less than 10ft away from the switch as well and that delay could increase with distance after a certain point too. I think that’s why those who are real sticklers go wired. Even if it’s a tad bit slower you don’t have the interference to worry about. I thought the Hori FC felt awesome and was a more solid, higher quality build plus it performed near as well wired. I’ve been trying to use it a bit more myself and I like the feel of it.
I did retest the Retrobit BT multiple times though and was getting consistent results, but it’s still a “lab” result in pretty ideal conditions. If you have lots of other BT devices around and are farther away I can see the wired controllers taking over as the most reliable choices. That does make sense.
@@ShmupJunkie For what it's worth, I've been giving it more time and I haven't had any issues since. And you're right, wired controllers, in spite of the additional lag, appeal to some because they provide more consistent performance; in fact before I found this video I was contemplating getting a wired controller so I wouldn't have to worry about charging batteries (I could just keep a wireless controller plugged in but I'd be concerned I'd wear out the battery).
But at any rate thanks for the recommendations! I'll be taking more time to break this new controller in.
I noticed you used the Retrobit wireless Sega Genesis controller for wireless, and for wired the Retrobit Saturn pad, I was pretty sure the wired version of the RetroBit Genesis pad was made with the Sega Genesis mini in mind as opposed to the Saturn pad from RetroBit. I'm curious how the actual wired version of the Genesis 6 and 8 button pads compare.
When you say wired mode on the Switch Pro, are you explicitly referring to ONLY the added 'wired mode' that can be selected in the options or does this result include when you're simply playing with it connected via usb as a charger? I really hope that just charging it while still leaving it in standard bluetooth mode doesn't introduce any more delay.
Definitely room for a sequel to this, for one I am highly tempted by 8bitdo's SN30 Pro Plus controller, though it's being touted as the most sophisticated pad they've released, I have no idea just how well it might perform on Switch after seeing the results of the M30 Bluetooth.
Simply connecting it to the USB to charge doesn't effect the performance no, not that I measured. I meant actually turning on the wired mode option to force the Switch to use it that way and not wireless. So if you want to charge only, make sure that is always off, otherwise the Switch will change you over to hardwired when you plug it in using the USB to communicate as well as charge. That's where you'll get the extra half frame or so of delay. So I keep mine off. For testing I had to specifically turn it on to make sure it wasn't just playing wireless while plugged in.
There are a ton of controllers I could still test yeah, I just don't have them. It was expensive buying all these random extras on the first round and I tried selling off what I wasn't going to use. So I let people know they are welcome to send me theirs if they want me to wire up and test them, and eventually I'll have enough to put another video together. No takers yet though 😅
@@ShmupJunkie Excellent, that's what I figured but I just wanted to be 100% sure. Also yeah, it's not a cheap hobby, here's to hoping you get enough new pads for a followup. Really appreciate the work you've done so far though. Sub'd. :)
@@alopexau I’m glad you’re enjoying my vids. And if you are on discord at all and enjoy the discussion we have a great group of chill people there. I usually post the video I’m working on next in a certain channel and many pitch in and contributes knowledge and details I end up adding into videos. There’s a bunch of channels in there as well. If you ever do here’s a working link discord.gg/U2B6wAjZja
Any way you can do a new video covering the new gulikit kingkong 2 pro controller?
Unfortunately I don't own that controller to test it.
Have you tested the PS5's Duel Sense controllers latency by any chance? Curious to see how it stacks up against the Switch Pro Controller.
No I never tested any of the PS stuff honestly as there hasn't been a need. The PS4 controllers via bluetooth were some of the fastest around and a benchmark, already tested by others. So there was never much need. Unless they suddenly screwed up the PS5 I'd hope they are just as good as the PS4 controllers.
I’ve seen testing online where it shows that the Duel Sense is around 1ms slower than the DualShock 4 which is really good considering the DS4 already has very low input lag to begin with like you pointed out.
Unfortunately for switch, it’s a matter of picking your poison.. Settle with the joycons crappy ergonomics, tiny cheap buttons and stubby weird analog sticks just to shave off 13ms of lag(which is a lot and does make a difference) or roll with the pro controller and get that comfort, larger buttons, higher quality and traditional sticks, all while having to put up with your in-game character feeling less responsive and heavier, plus it’s HD rumble feels drowned out, less defined and explosive compared to the detached joycons. Lose lose situation imo
Nintendo totally dropped the ball with their controllers this year. I wish there was a better solution! A Pro-like controller with gyro that can get close to the joycons latency would be sweet
@@NeonPizza80s I pretty much only use my Retrobit or the wired Hori FC on my switch for older games. They’re both close as possible to the joycon and faster than the pro controller. Just no good for modern games that need analog controls.
The Hori FC looks pretty nice for anything retro based, but I wish I could use an 8bitdo controller when it comes to modern titles that use sticks. But supposedly those don’t fare too well in the latency department either.
Ideally, If i could play switch exclusives on the PS5 with the duel sense for its low lag and then gain higher frame rates and resolution from the PS5’s power, I’d be jammin!
@@ShmupJunkie
Just a heads up, the 8bitdo Pro 2 'Wired' Controller for Switch & PC supposedly has less latency than even the joy-cons and is in the same ball park as the Duel sense.
I ordered one a couple of days ago, hopefully it does the deed! Just stay clear of the Wireless version, it's slow as a turtle, even when using it's detachable USB cable.