i'm a cis woman who's interested in manual labor and landscaping, which is seen as something very masculine. My parents support it a lot so i sometimes get surprised when someone speaks against it or doubts my abilities because i'm so used to it being normalized that i forget that "gender roles" exist lmao. I also love seeing women in construction every now and then when i walk past construction sites, it's very inspiring :).
As a person who recently came out as gender nonconforming at age 52, I absolutely appreciate the four of you sharing so vulnerably. I was feeling like I needed to perform as nonbinary, now I understand that I'm simply being me:)
These conversations are like a breath of fresh air for me! I am still tip-toeing around my own gender and sexuality, hoping to find community within a liberal city in a conservative state, but having to confront a lot of fears from within the queer community that I wasn't expecting to run in to, like biphobia, transphobia, racism, and misogyny. These things are within all communities of the location I live in, but the conversations seem more dire and threatening within the queer community, like I should have already had these conversations before approaching the local lesbian bar. It's been sort of odd too because I am approaching these topics at the age of 30, so I have been getting along a lot more with queer people in their 40s who are also new to a lot of the new terminologies and understandings of the younger generations. Anyway, thanks so much for the podcast and posting to RUclips! Love what y'all are doing
A breath of fresh air. That's exactly how I explained it in my comment. I just wanted to ask a couple of questions about what you said if you don't mind my asking: 1. Which state do you live in? and 2. Is there a way to look up if your state has any liberal cities? I live in OK, and until I read your comment, it had never occurred to me that there could be such a thing as a liberal city in a conservative state. It sounds both awesome and toxic at the same time. I feel so unsafe...
@@WolfieZaps I live in Texas, and have lived in places like San Antonio and the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex. I would consider these liberal cities because the city council members, mayors, etc. are either Democrats or progressive-leaning independents. Dallas and Fort Worth themselves have Republican mayors right now, but there are many little cities around them that have Democrat or otherwise progressive or liberal mayors and city council members. For a place like the metroplex, it's easy to feel unsafe because so many cities and suburbs have run into each other and it's a real mix of people, plus I think it is assumed that everyone here in Texas is a conservative until proven otherwise. I think that you can find people to feel safe around in most states in the US, but the state governments and neighboring city governments should play a role into your safety assessment, because law enforcement is often just legalized violence. It's how laws are enforced in the US. Something else I want to say (and I know this may not apply in most cases), is that not every local conservative governing body is going to ruin your life. There is a city in the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex called Lewisville that has a conservative governing body right now, but they are more interested in creating more green spaces and making the city more walkable than they are with culture war stuff. So, look into your local city government, show up to some meetings, assume they want the best for the place they live, and offer up viewpoints they hadn't considered. Not all of them are trying to win the culture war. Some are just trying to make their world a little better and are open to all kinds of ideas.
At the very beginning, comparing "the arts / sports" is kinda funny because quite a bit in history art has been a "man's only" thing. Funny to watch things fluctuate throughout time.
i´d argue that very much depends on what you/who gets to define what counts as "art". artistic creations have very much been made by women for the longest part of history, which of course you know and didn´t argue against, i assume. fiber arts like embroidery have historically been excluded from the definition of "fine art". but what we nowadays count as art in the western world is a rather recent and very bourgeois concept -and i´d argue a very intentionally depoliticized one and made impotent by the ruling class. point is: revolutiooooooon against patriarchy, gendernormativitiy and the evil rich! :D :D that said,...i don´t disagree with your point and wholeheartetly: YES! it is really interesting to watch things change and fluctuate over time. :)
I'm 15 and ive known i was nb since 11/12, I've always felt somewhat disconnected from the term non binary, which may be from social media and how nonbinary ppl in my age group that present in alternative fashion and what not is whats pushed, and I dress much more casually and more stereotypically masculine, which often gets me labeled as either a teen boy or a lesbian by ppl idk. I've kinda given up on even trying to appear as "non binary" to ppl (I'm just going to be labeled as male or female either way) if someone calls me the wrong pronoun especially in school I don't bother to correct them. my transition goal is just to be me tbh 😭all I want is to continue to dress and appear as I want without constantly having to be pushed into boxes and labels (I prefer to just say I go by they/them rather than nonbinary because of ppl trying to make it into a 3rd box)
42:40 that analogy is so so helpful and important to hear. You literally put words to what I have been feeling as someone who is a daughter of immigrants. I think as humans we all have issues to some degree of letting go and allowing the new in, but it is vital to our existence as a human race and especially as queer people. Freedom scares people much more than they'd care to ever let on.
@@chr85168 the boxes and predefined labels can be very comfortable for some of us. But exploring and carving your own path can bring such a massive understanding of self.
I am non-binary. Non-binary is a broad category which can mean many different things to many different people. Anyone who doesn't fit into the binary of man or woman can identify as non-binary. For me personally, I kinda wish I had the ability to switch between being a man and a woman. In the online trans community, they have this thought experiment called "the button". If there was a magic button that could instantly transform you into the opposite sex, would you push it? It's a way for "eggs" to help discover that they are trans. For me, I wish I had a magic switch so that somedays I could be a man and somedays I could be a woman. Thats not really possible so I settle with aiming for an androgynous body and having a fluid gender expression. Some days I present masc, some days fem, some days in between. I found this way of living my life so freeing. I tried for a time to be binary, either a girl or a guy. Both felt like pretending to be someone else rather than being me. I feel more happy now that I am able to be my true self.
This. Yes. I 100% agree and relate with absolutely everything you just said. I would give absolutely anything to have a magic button to switch myself even down to my anatomy at will, but that isn't possible like you said. For me, this means my ability to gender express is very important. Unfortunately, I can't do that at all where I live currently, or I could get shot but... I'm existing I guess. Which is maybe better than nothing?
I 100% relate to this, but I also think that ‘non-binary’ is just another label and box. Sometimes I present more masculine, sometimes more feminine, most of the time androgynous and that’s the only way I feel free. Idk if you’ve seen it but there is a show called ‘gen v’, one of the characters can literally change their sex whenever they want and that’s just so cool and wholesome, I hope technology will develop to the such level so we can have something similar.😭😭😭
I really relate to feeling defensive about continuing to occupy the political designation of "woman" while identifying as non-binary. A term I've been using that I find helpful is "feminized person" because it extends beyond intersections to include anyone who is deemed "oppressable" for exhibiting femininity, intentionally or otherwise. I feel like I'm still going to change my presentation a lot but for now I don't want to completely discard my female identity because I think it's important to be visible as another mode of being.
hmm maybe i’m in the minority here but i see being nonbinary as being trans. one of the hosts mentioned that they’re different, and yes they are different but insofar as being nonbinary is a subcategory of being trans. you have transed your gender if you’re nonbinary, that’s how i see it! curious what other people think i also want to point out some of the language usage, and i was excited to hear it think halal make a point about it, but when one of the hosts mentioned they didn’t transition/didn’t want to or however it was phrased and made a comment about their level of comfort in their body. it’s important that we DO NOT ascribe transitioning to altering one’s body. that can be part of the process but transitioning is much more than hormones or surgery! the social aspect of it is so so important and i feel like we just don’t talk about it when we have the “transitioning” conversation. you don’t even need to do anything physical to transition - changing your pronouns or picking a new name for example is gender affirming care and should be seen as transitioning imo! we needn’t separate the identity of “trans” into a super exclusionary group in which you have to hit certain benchmarks to be able to use the term - and this is coming from a lesbian who injects themself with hormones every week. it’s not necessary and the label is for anyone! we absolutely should be careful about generalizing experiences and not speaking over different trans people as i think it just makes it more difficult for everyone involved
i agree! ive been in trans spaces since like 2017 and this is literally the 1st time ive heard [a trans and/or nonbinary person] say nonbinary isnt trans, unless theyr like truscum/transmed or smth, which is just a bigoted exclusionary ideology thats best ignored. ive always thought trans just means anyone who dosnt fully id w the gender they were assigned at birth. im not gonna gatekeep the words ppl can use for themself so if a nonbinary person dosnt id w the label of trans i'll respect that, but i dont see the point in trying to change the definition of trans in general to only mean a binary trans person bc like, thats such a weirdly narrow box that just turns trans vs nonbinary into another binary, which in practice its not, bc like there are so many trans ppl who dont fit neatly into that binary, who identify mostly as the binary gender they werent assigned at birth, and mostly just call themself a trans woman/man for convenience, but still dont feel completely binary, or also identify as nonbinary as well, for example. and as gender norms continue to unravel as society keeps progressing towards being less gendered, and the amount of ppl who dont id w the gender binary will continue to increase as the extreme amount of pressure to be cis and/or binary continues to decrease, the trans/nonbinary binary will only become even less meaningful. so changing "trans" to only mean "binary trans" feels like a step backwards towards reinforcing the gender binary to me. and im saying this as a very stereotypically binary trans person who dosnt identify as nonbinary at all and just wants to pass as cis (for the binary gender i wasnt assigned at birth) btw, bc i can identify strongly w the binary gender that i wasnt assigned at birth and also recognise that the gender binary is harmful and the reason i identify completely within it is bc thats the system i was indoctrinated into since childhood which caused me to develop a deep sense of where im supposed to fit within that system, but it still would have been much better and less traumatising for me as a binary trans person to not have been indoctrinated into the gender binary to begin with, so i think its smth we should be trying to deconstruct as fast as we can for the good of everyone (including cis ppl), which means making the language of gender more inclusive not more narrow, imo. in an ideal world children shouldnt have genders assigned to them at all (but should still have their identities and pronouns respected when/if they choose them), and then choosing to change ur hormones and sex characterstics neednt even be inherently associated w gender anymore :3 (/agreeing with u)
A lot of people are talking about how identifying as non-binary felt freeing to them like the removal of rules and boxes, but can't they already do that without changing their gender though? (geniune question not trying to be rude)
I think youre right, its partly just another way of fighting the patriarchal system, that assigns certain roles to people. But why do you look at this as the wrong way to normalize the absence of gender roles (social roles, appearance/self-presenting, roles in relationships) and queerness in general
I think gender non-conformity can look very different per person and it’s really about what feels right to you, and if it changes then go with the flow of what feels right. It’s like what Emily was saying about trying things on and seeing if it feels good to you
@@birdie_3 I dunno. I just feel like creating more genders to escape those boxes and rules is unnecessary and also avoiding the problem of those boxes and rules being there in the first place.
@@raylielume speaking as a gender abolitionist: what labels ppl can use is one of those rules ur refering to. letting ppl use wtv labels and pronouns they want for themself is one of the ways we break the rules of patriarchy, and allowing ppl that freedom is a step towards gender abolition. the more ppl identify outside of the gender they were assigned at birth, the more we question and learn abt gender as a society and all the ways it affects us, and the more the old pseudo-scientific bio-essentialist gender assumptions that uphold patriarchy are undermined and deconstructed. we can break all the rules simultaneously, and what words we can use for ourself is one of those rules. u can choose what label to use for urself and also fight against the norms associated w those labels at the same time. we shouldnt limit the ways ppl r allowed to not conform to patriarchal norms. the more we let everyone break all the rules and do what they want the faster the whole system of gender will deconstruct. the point is to stop enforcing any gendered rules at all and let everyone do what they want, and that includes letting ppl use the words that feel the most comfortable to them. if ur trying to keep enforcing some rules (what words ppl should use for themself) then ur still upholding a patriarchal norm. and on the personal experiential level, to answer ur original question: the words ppl use to refer to us does affect us. and the way we identify changes the way ppl view and treat us and the way we interact with society. these words have deep psychological significance to us that we've internalised since childhood, and we cant help the fact that using different words does change how we feel abt ourself. alot of us have a significant amount of complex trauma and dysphoria associated with a label that was forced on us bc of everything that label represents in a gendered society, so choosing to not identify with that label can feel freeing and change how u feel and see urself and interact with others. identifying as nonbinary can change the way u see urself, and using that label openly with others also allows other ppl to see u and understand u for who r rlly are and stop projecting gendered assumptions onto u that u dont identify with. bc the reality is that most ppl *do* identify with the gender that was assigned to them at birth, and it *does* actually have alot of meaning for them about who they are and how they fit into society, even if that meaning is subconscious and taken for granted like it often is for cisgender ppl. so not identifying with that gender also has just as much meaning and does change how others see u and how u see urself. anyway, wtv the psychological reasons, millions of ppl do find that it does help them to use the label for themself that feels best for them, so why would u want to limit their freedom and stop them from being able to make their life better within this oppressive system? /rh. as much as u try to intellectually justify the idea that labels *shouldnt* affect ppl, the reality is that under the current patriarchal system, for alot of ppl these words *do* deeply affect us, and thats not smth u can just intellectually argue away. and the more we stop controlling each other and let everyone do whatever makes them the most comfortable, including using the labels and pronouns that make them most comfy, the faster the whole system of gender will crumble. gender abolition means taking away all the rules, not taking away words that ppl r allowed to use for themself and therefore continuing an aspect of the oppressive systems of gendered control. and if u still dont get it after reading all this, dont @ me bc if this isnt enuf explanation for u then i no longer believe ur asking in good faith and i dont want to talk to u /boundary.
I’d argue you’re attacking other people’s freedom as well. You say you’re a gender abolitionist and that’s homophobic. If anybody can be any gender that erases homosexuality. The feminist movement was working towards allowing any person to be whatever they want regardless if they are a man or a woman and your movement constantly puts gender in the forefront. Man or woman is just that, a label. And it’s up to every individual how they want to go about it. I think what your movement is doing is creating more gender stereotypes and dysphoria because you are the ones assuming there are strict gender roles when there really isn’t.
I'm genderfluid (trans/enby), and I see a little of myself in each of you guyz. If I had grown up with that kind of representation in media, maybe my life would've been so different to how it is now. I grew up very isolated and alienated in the bible belt and in a very conservative state. I'm still stuck there unfortunately, so I am still very much closeted because I don't feel safe at all. No one around me liked me because I was different. I was ostracized by my own family, peers, and just the general public. Even when I forced myself to conform, they still didn't like me. I didn't know what or who I was after a while. I lost myself somewhere along the way. When I met my online gay best friend, I finally started to slip into being myself again instead of always being coded to hide EVERYTHING about me. I felt comfort and happiness for the first time in my life. An ease of existence I had never ever felt before. It felt more natural than breathing and very much like it was a breath of fresh air after spending a long time underground in a musty cellar. Watching you guyz talking to each other in a room together feels like I'm catching up with long lost friends. I hope that doesn't sound weird, because I obviously don't know any of you at all, but it's just a connection to others that I never got to feel for the first 30+ years of my life. I hope that makes sense. Thank you so much for this video. It means so much to me and words could never truly express how I feel, but I get the feeling many here might know exactly what that feeling is too.♥
Thank you for sharing so vulnerably and I’m so sorry you don’t feel safe enough to be yourself in the outside world. I’m glad we could provide some comfort and know that your story and your happiness and authenticity matter so so much and I hope you get to fully experience it one day 💕 keep being you, you are enough
Personally I am very very queer but also firmly binary, watching people I know or even content creators I know come out as nonbinary is a great passtime. It's like raising your plants where you can assume something interesting will be happening but never quite sure how they will grow, very cool
@@evaaaxsheep ah we’ve been trying for quite a while to find the right guests for this one. If you know of any Ace / aro educators or influencers you’d like to see let us know! It’s an episode we definitely want to do
Evie Lupine is an openly Ace creator and kink educator and Amp from Watts the Safeword is a gay demisexual kink educator, both here on RUclips. Though maybe they would be suited to a different episode topic lol
For me personally as a Gender-Fluid(Non-Binary) person, I see the term Non-Binary as a very freeing label. Non-Binary simply means anyone that doesn’t fit in the boxes of man and woman, so it feels like the pressure of doing certain things and acting a certain way for the sake of fitting into a box has just be lifted. I feel more comfortable doing whatever I want just because I want to, and not because I’m trying to fit in one or the other box.
I felt this my entire life. I'm also genderfluid (trans/enby), and I was always being forced into a box that I not only didn't fit it but also didn't WANT to be in. For me being non-binary is having the freedom to exist, express, and enjoy anything you want to regardless of how upset that may make others that you don't fit the mold. Sometimes, I am a woman. Sometimes, I am a man. Sometimes, I'm some combination of both. Sometimes, neither at all. My gender is very fluid, and I would describe it like water. I have many different states of being that are obvious but also many other states of being in-between. It took me a long time to unlearn the need to fit the mold I was given at birth because I thought it would make people like me even though it never did.
36:43 Same here. It's also the easiest, at least when it comes to dating and longer relationships. Straight people always have the straight friends for whom you have to hold a continuous Q&A session. It's exhausting
I used to identify as non-binary and i can relate to a lot of the things people have mentioned. I think the biggest thing for me was just that i didn't feel like my assigned gender or like any gender. I still don't tbh. I stopped labelling as nb because i have a bad habit of trying to fit myself into a box and thus i had to be masc or androgynous, because i kept getting misgendered regardless, and because i hated having to explain my identity to everyone. I think it's so difficult to exist as nb in this day and age, even though it's more well known. In the end i actually feel happier refusing to label myself or give myself pronouns. I feel more free that way. I can't be misgendered if i have no gender lol. And there's no way my brain will force me to dress. I guess technically you could call this being agender though I'm trying to avoid labels. I'm honestly happy to just call myself a lesbian. It's what i identify with the most. I think a lot of lesbians can relate to the gender nonconformity and gender fuckery that comes along when you are a lesbian. I'm glad though that some people are finding more freedom with the nb label. Just don't put yourself in a box like i did 😅 you don't need surgery or to dress a certain way or even change your name to be valid x
I hope Heath has, since growing up, educated themselves about the struggles of intersex people. I know they were a kid so I dont blame them, but as an intersex nonbinary person it does always make me feel weird when other nonbinary people talk about their identity in reference to intersex. Again cant blame them as a kid. But maybe second guess telling that story,or add some stuff about how to help actual interaex people too!
00:00 🗳️ Non-binary identity emphasizes autonomy and the removal of rigid societal rules. 00:13 🌈 Gender affirming practices can exist without surgery or hormones. 01:18 🎤 The podcast explores non-binary identities, societal expectations, and gender dysphoria. 01:34 🌟 Heath V Salazar is introduced as an award-winning performer and writer. 02:19 🌸 Emily recently came out as non-binary after identifying as a woman for most of her life. 02:37 🌌 Halal uses her platform to celebrate queer culture and critique societal constructs. 03:19 ⚖️ Non-binary identities challenge societal binaries, encouraging personal exploration of gender. 04:30 🎨 Embracing non-binary identities allows for fluidity between masculine and feminine expressions. 05:44 💡 Gender and sexuality exist on a spectrum, promoting acceptance of diverse identities. 07:06 🛡️ Personal autonomy in gender expression is key, allowing individuals to redefine their relationships to masculinity and femininity. 08:52 💭 The societal understanding of non-binary identities is still evolving, with many still questioning their own identities. 09:15 💥 Non-binary people often navigate societal expectations and challenges to find their unique expressions. 10:28 🎭 Halal reflects on growing up in a conservative environment while exploring gender boundaries. 11:45 🔍 Heath realized they weren't cisgender from a young age, struggling with societal gender norms. 13:14 🔄 The podcast emphasizes the importance of representation in understanding and exploring non-binary identities. 17:24 📚 Access to diverse representations helps reduce confusion around gender identity, particularly for children. 18:30 🛡️ Limiting knowledge and education can lead to greater confusion and misunderstanding in society. 20:00 🤔 Struggling with societal expectations around trans identity and personal expression. 20:18 🧬 Society's rigid standards complicate the understanding and acceptance of trans and non-binary identities. 21:30 🌈 Community dynamics often create pressure to conform to certain gender expressions. 22:00 🌟 Personal acceptance of identity evolves over time, allowing for diverse expressions of gender. 23:12 🧑🎤 Gender-affirming practices extend beyond surgery and hormones; they include personal style choices. 24:30 🛤️ Non-binary identities can serve as a stepping stone for understanding one's trans identity. 25:50 💡 Connection to womanhood can be complex, influenced by personal and cultural experiences. 26:40 👗 Performing femininity can feel disingenuous, as seen in personal experiences at traditional events. 27:10 🎭 Code-switching highlights the complexities of identity performance in various social contexts. 29:00 🌍 Cultural backgrounds shape expectations of gender and masculinity, impacting personal journeys. 30:05 🚫 Pressure to conform to gender norms often leads to struggles within queer communities. 31:20 💔 Understanding and respect are vital in navigating familial expectations around gender identity. 32:45 🏳️🌈 Gender and sexuality are deeply intertwined, often leading to questions about labels and attraction. 35:20 🔄 Labels can be flexible; attraction to individuals transcends strict categories of gender and sexuality. 36:45 🏳️🌈 Identifying as queer allows for broader exploration of attraction beyond traditional definitions. 37:30 🔍 Understanding misogyny and discrimination within queer spaces is crucial for creating inclusive communities. 38:10 ✊ Acknowledging the history and presence of trans men in lesbian spaces fosters inclusivity and understanding. 40:03 🎤 Discussion of navigating gender identity and space within conversations about trans experiences. 40:39 🏳️🌈 Importance of inclusivity for all trans and non-binary identities in advocacy and representation. 41:06 🌈 Queer spaces provide a unique environment for diverse identities to coexist, despite existing phobias within the community. 41:49 🕰️ Historical context matters; past visibility struggles inform current identity discussions and fears around representation. 43:00 📈 Rise in non-binary identity visibility correlates with cultural changes and increased media representation since 2014. 45:04 🌍 Accessibility of information allows younger generations to explore and understand their gender identities more freely. 47:48 🧒 Kids need supportive environments to explore their identities without fear of negative consequences or societal rejection. 49:10 📚 Language evolves, and changing it to be inclusive is essential for societal progress; fear of change shouldn't hinder acceptance. 51:30 ✊ Respecting others’ identities is fundamental; understanding is less important than acknowledging and honoring their experiences. 51:42 🎙 Thanks expressed to guests for their contributions to the discussion on gender and sexuality exploration.
With regards to the identity of non-binary, I was always a bit sceptical, in the sense that I didn't think it couldn't exist, but I always felt like "you can be different from the society's norm of man or women and still be a man or woman, you dont need a different identity for this". I guess being a millenial in a Muslim country (albeit a secular one) really nails that binary in your head. I found this discussion so helpful and so insightful for understanding the thought behind non-binary. I was fascinated by Heath's intersex dysphoria and Carvin's adamant attitude of keeping she/her pronouns to challenge the society's idea of what a woman is. Thank you for this lovely episode, it was a delight to listen to you all ❤
It’s so frustrating because as a nonbinary person I get so upset when I wear my favorite color pink, people just assume I use she/her pronouns. No matter how short my hair is or what I do people don’t seem to see me.
It’s because people will never ‘see you’ the first time they meet you. They see your gender, race, style, etc. So it’s better to not care about how others perceive you. In the end gender is just a social construct and it’s weird to limit yourself just because you want others to notice your gender. When you care so much about ‘looking non-binary’ you are basically putting yourself in a strict system. It would make sense if you were trans, because they want/need to pass, that’s the whole thing. But since you are non-binary you can just stop thinking about it. I personally think that gender is stupid and it limits ppl, I dress and act how I want, idc if ppl will say that I’m not feminine enough/im too masculine, I just live and feel freedom. Usually ppl think that being non-binary helps you escape the binary system, but it also creates certain restrictions(the same thing with agender) so just stop thinking so much about it and express yourself how you want, dress how you want, use pronouns that you wanna use.
@@yaholliy7128 I don’t need you to explain to me how I should feel about how I look. It hurts every time someone uses she/her pronouns with me. Yes I understand that being nonbinary puts me outside of the gendered ideals. Well aware. You also don’t know the fullness of my identity so please back off. Saying “you’re not trans so you can’t be upset when someone misidentifies you” is just inaccurate.i understand you’re trying to be “helpful” but you just don’t know me a stranger on the internet at all to be able to say any of that. I would love to have thick skin and be called a things I’m not constantly, but that’s not who I am. So take your unsolicited “advice” elsewhere.
@@Xenocrossingsorry if I sounded rude, English is not my first language. I’m not saying you can’t be upset, I’m saying that you have an ability to literally stop caring and it’s extremely cool in my opinion. I meant to support you and say that in the future everything will be better.
My favorite color isn't pink, but I like wearing clothes more on the fem side, so people use she/her pronouns for me all the time, and it's so invalidating and dysphoric. So I really feel you on this.
im trying to find out, like im not dysphoric or anything but i dont feel like a girl, but i dont want to be masculine or androginous, i just want to be, and i happen to be very feminine but not a woman
Maybe you are agender? Agender: of, relating to, or being a person who has an internal sense of being neither male nor female nor some combination of male and female. : of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is genderless or neutral.
im confused bc why do clothes, tone of voice, and demeanor make u feminine or masculine if yall dont believe in labels? and if masculine basically stands for male and feminine female , wouldnt yall be agreeing that there’s only two genders?
We’re more so speaking on how we present to society, which does have a binary predisposition. I would highly recommend checking out our episode called “are you straight or is it compulsory heterosexuality” we really deep dive on what it means to be a woman/man and femininity/masculinity.
Curious if you'd do a follow-up non-trinary or outherine episode, the idea that the bimodal spectrum is not encompassing the variety life can bring, and sometimes pigeonholes people into compulsory androgyny, or into a reactionary mindset built strictly to be compared to cis binary people rather than to truly be free.
Wow I also grew up in Kuwait when I left in 2006 but I was 12 what the hell I really wish we got to flup genders for a day sounds soooo fun. I went to Indian Britain system School though. I'm also middle eastern too
Heath Gay Jesus is so cool, they're the kind of queer I wanna be, with the boobs and the beard 🤩 I got the boobs and a little goatee already but maybe one day I'll get HRT and grow even more hair xD
To me, non-binary means freedom. Freedom from gendered expectations, freedom to wear whatever the hell I want, freedom to queer my body however I please.
It’s crazy how they can make a podcast about being inclusive when you have a person blatantly calling himself “gay Jesus” as if that’s okay. They don’t care how Christian’s feel about that at all
Hello there. First of all, very interesting conversation! I'm a gay man and I've been looking for information about being non-binary for quite some time and I must say that it is hard. I feel like there is an abyssal disconnection between me and this relatively new identification, and this skepticism is causing friction between me and the community. I have been told that some of what I say is transphobic or that I'm just a horrible person for thinking what I think. I don't want to be perceived as such, but I can't help it; my thought process is to first understand and then believe. I have a few questions and I would love to hear the answers and get closer to a more profound connection with y'all. 1) Are you aware that the definition itself is quite muddy? I get the fluctuation, the fluidity, and that every experience is different, but are you conscious that this perception is extremely subjective? From the outside, I can't see it; only you can perceive what you are and what you feel, etc. I'm sorry to say this so openly in this comment section that deserves to be inclusive 100%, but I don't think I will ever perceive you as non-binary, or a no-woman or no-man, or agender, etc. I recognize that you have a different way of perceiving gender, but I really can't dive into it. If someone that I love were to tell me that they are agender, I would still see the gender. Even with trans people: I recognize them socially as the gender they display and, coherently, I consider them trans men and trans women, not men and women. I would love to see from your lens, but I really can't. What do you think about it? Am I being disrespectful? 2)What is queerness then? In the podcast, they say "attracted to queerness," but what does it mean? Like, attracted to gender non-conforming people? The way they look? The interests that you have in common? "Attracted to non-binary" really puzzled me. What do you mean? Again, I'm sorry to say this, but you still present yourself as a male or a female despite the identification as non-binary. At this point, what do you mean by "attracted"? Is it not about physiological impulses? Do you mean "I want to be around people that I know are non-binary" for some reason? "I'm not attracted to straight people," what does it mean? Again, is it the way they present themselves? One last thing that I really don't get is "being gay is so different than being queer." Like I said in the beginning, what is queerness then? 3)The entire concept of pansexuality. I think I get it, but I don't know if I'm interpreting it "the right way." So in brief, a pansexual individual decides to use this label because they primarily believe that there are more than two genders. In order to be more inclusive, a gay male person might use this label because non-binary people exist, and since these particular individuals may have no gender or many genders, he can't be just a gay man; he must be pansexual because he is interested in a person that doesn't have a gender. Like I said, this is really muddy, and I would love to see through it more clearly. 4)I was surprised that the topic of autism wasn't mentioned. I did some research and found a correlation between autism and gender non-conforming behaviors. It makes sense since autistic people are known to challenge social norms, live by their perception of the world, and tend to have interdependency with each other and find community smoothly. What do you think about it? Never in a million years would I stigmatize non-binary identities or non-binary people by finding a cause-effect mechanism; this is me being genuinely curious. I know this is an intricate topic, and I understand that some individuals will consider this questions as an attack on their existence, but that's okay. As an atheist, I will never believe in something just because someone tells me to, and I encourage everyone to use critical thinking in every aspect of their life.
Great questions! Another problem that comes with being ‘non-binary’ is straight up sexism, gender stereotypes and restrictions. I used to identify as non-binary 5-6 years ago until I realised that it’s just another box, instead of freedom you get another limitations. ‘Non-binary is not fitting into binary system’, but you can be not feminine and still be a woman, you can be not masculine and still be a man. People will still judge based on stereotypes so I also don’t really get the point.
I think this is a really interesting conversation and while I don’t know all the answers, I think I could answer no.3 as a bisexual nonbinary person; It’s not that bisexuals only believe/are attracted to just two genders (though there are bisexuals who are attracted to just 2 genders) but that the specific way a bi or pan person might experience attraction would be different. In my experience, I don’t identify as pansexual because I am not attracted to all genders and I am attracted to different genders in different amounts. A pansexual person might not entirely experience that, so they’d identify as pansexual. This is just a small part of attraction, since it includes romantic and sexual attraction (but that enters into aro/ace territory) There is a lot of overlap between bisexuality and pansexuality but the distinction matters to a lot of people. And for gays and lesbians, if their span of attraction includes nonbinary people, then they’re free to identify as either gay/lesbian or whatever label they think fits them best. Many bisexuals in the past would identify under the gay or lesbian labels, so there’s definitely space for that. To be entirely honest, a persons choice of labeling is 100% up to them. Two gay men may have different modes of attraction (one might be attracted to nonbinary people or trans men and one might not) but still call themselves gay men. You don’t have to change your label unless you really want to. Hope this clears things up
@@yaholliy7128 I struggle with this too tbh. I don't want to invalidate people. I've labelled as NB and I've genuinely felt dysphoria and I know what it feels like to just not identify with being a man or a woman. I still struggle a little with what it means to identify as a gender, though now I do feel a connection to womanhood through lived experience if that counts for anything 🤷🏿 When I was nb, I felt so much pressure to conform to androgyny or being more masc, simply because I didn't want to be misgendered. I ended up putting myself in another box. But then again, that's just me. There are plenty of NBs that don't give into that mentality. Right now I'm toying with the idea of just being a gender nonconforming female person and not having a gender or preferred pronouns. I think this might be the way I can deal with my discomfort the most, but it's probably different for everyone
@@fujoshipeanut5074 I had really similar experience, but I don’t feel any connection to womanhood, i just know that i went through female gender socialisation although it didn’t really affect me. I hope that new idea will work out for you!!💕 In my opinion it’s kinda pointless to identity as any gender, because it’s a huge step back. And rn because of the society we live in some masculine women are being called men, trans, nb because they don’t fit in the ‘woman box’, powerful women of the past are being called amab, because they were strong and its ‘not woman-like’. Due to all of that I think we as a society should try to destroy gender as a concept as much as possible or at least we should stop making it all worse.
What is the difference between genderfluidity and non binairy Maybe it could be more than that as genderfuid that masculine & feminine periods come & go Non binairy is more stady! But i feel i miss something!
I appreciate the discussion and learning more about the perspectives and experiences of the speakers, thank you! I do have a lot of thoughts, but on the non-binary topic in particular… If this simply meant gender nonconforming, then I’d be fully on board. However, I feel like it can potentially cause the very regression that it attempts to stray from. The vast majority of the time (not 100%), we can tell who is a man or a woman. Yes, HRT and other surgical interventions can change what we perceive, but that’s superficial (and totally ok, adults in a free society within reason can do what they choose and should never be harassed or called names). So when I see, for instance, a woman who identifies as non-binary, I see that as a woman who doesn’t conform or doesn’t want to conform to certain expectations. It doesn’t mean she isn’t a woman. Making statements like “I didn’t FEEL like a man or woman” doesn’t make sense to me, because man and woman are immutable characteristics. We don’t have an invisible “gender soul” apart from our biological sex, but we are all different and many of us aren’t “typical” of our gender/sex. A man can live as if he were a woman (or just in a very “fem” manner), or vice versa, especially with the help of medical science to appear more as such. Furthermore, emphasis on “non-binary” as a category in and of itself seems to emphasize that being a man or a woman has requisite requirements or characteristics. I think we need to focus on pushing back on creating a world where being a man or a woman doesn’t mean you HAVE to dress or behave a certain way, but that never changes what we are in a definitional sense. I think everybody deserves basic respect, dignity, and freedom. I see nothing wrong with somebody calling themselves non-binary, but to me that doesn’t mean they aren’t a man or a woman in reality. Similarly to how if someone is trans, they are and will always be the sex they were born as, but they are living as if they were the opposite (which again, in a free society, is fine in and of itself) and therefore may have varied secondary sex characteristics or simply are not fully “feminine” or fully “masculine” which can be subjective to a degree.
This was interesting. I've noticed nonbinary males are typically feminine. I've never seen a masculine nonbinary male. There also is another observable trait the four of these archetypes share that I'm going to further look into. I've also noticed this with every other nonbinary person as well.
the way y'all just spent an hour dissecting your own identities & assigning microlabels to every aspect of your lives is so contradictory to the description of this video lol
I agree. I am still listening to the full video in good faith attempt at understanding, but there are just so many issues I’m finding that are difficult to summarize briefly (nothing against the speakers personally)
I'm a transexual woman and i agree it just doesn't make any sense to me , it comes across more like gender expression rather than gender identity, they usually almost always say they are neither male or female but your literally born biologicaly male or female it's a sex not a gender , and then there's when they say it's because they are more masculine than feminine that they are neither man or a woman, but you can be a high fem man or high masc woman , I have been trying to understand this for years and I'm still left with a question mark , no disrespect to the individual though il call them by their pronouns I've no reason to be rude even if I don't understand it fully.
@@binghamguevara6814I just made a comment that you can interpret as being anti- alphabet people . I am pro truth though , and the truth can hurt those who are blinded to it . "Jesus Christ said , "IAM the Way the Truth and the Life. No-one comes to the Father but through Me" . Jesus is the Way to the Father , the Truth of all things ( Reality) and the Life , ( Eternal Life) "The Cross is an offence to those perishing , but is power to those being saved" Male and Female He created us . 😊 🇬🇧♥️✝️🇮🇱
Wonderfully informative! I have a much better idea of the landscape that is being explored. I am part the leading edge of GenX but also very open minded. Great discussion.
![Coheed and Cambria - Searching for Tomorrow [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/hDsYGLbmadg/mqdefault.jpg)
i'm a cis woman who's interested in manual labor and landscaping, which is seen as something very masculine. My parents support it a lot so i sometimes get surprised when someone speaks against it or doubts my abilities because i'm so used to it being normalized that i forget that "gender roles" exist lmao. I also love seeing women in construction every now and then when i walk past construction sites, it's very inspiring :).
Love that! Gender roles can be a bit silly
@@QueerCollective lol ikr tell me about it
As a person who recently came out as gender nonconforming at age 52, I absolutely appreciate the four of you sharing so vulnerably. I was feeling like I needed to perform as nonbinary, now I understand that I'm simply being me:)
That k you for sharing! Just being you is all you need 💕
So you basically had to tell people that you didn't like and rejected sexism? Wow...
Live that best life, OP!
nonbinary for me is just…me !
Period🖤
@@taimartinez722 🖤🖤
nonbinary for me is...yolo 😮💨🤞
Exactly! I literally just exist idc about what people think I should be.
you dropped this 👑
These conversations are like a breath of fresh air for me! I am still tip-toeing around my own gender and sexuality, hoping to find community within a liberal city in a conservative state, but having to confront a lot of fears from within the queer community that I wasn't expecting to run in to, like biphobia, transphobia, racism, and misogyny. These things are within all communities of the location I live in, but the conversations seem more dire and threatening within the queer community, like I should have already had these conversations before approaching the local lesbian bar. It's been sort of odd too because I am approaching these topics at the age of 30, so I have been getting along a lot more with queer people in their 40s who are also new to a lot of the new terminologies and understandings of the younger generations. Anyway, thanks so much for the podcast and posting to RUclips! Love what y'all are doing
A breath of fresh air. That's exactly how I explained it in my comment. I just wanted to ask a couple of questions about what you said if you don't mind my asking: 1. Which state do you live in? and 2. Is there a way to look up if your state has any liberal cities? I live in OK, and until I read your comment, it had never occurred to me that there could be such a thing as a liberal city in a conservative state. It sounds both awesome and toxic at the same time. I feel so unsafe...
@@WolfieZaps I live in Texas, and have lived in places like San Antonio and the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex. I would consider these liberal cities because the city council members, mayors, etc. are either Democrats or progressive-leaning independents. Dallas and Fort Worth themselves have Republican mayors right now, but there are many little cities around them that have Democrat or otherwise progressive or liberal mayors and city council members. For a place like the metroplex, it's easy to feel unsafe because so many cities and suburbs have run into each other and it's a real mix of people, plus I think it is assumed that everyone here in Texas is a conservative until proven otherwise. I think that you can find people to feel safe around in most states in the US, but the state governments and neighboring city governments should play a role into your safety assessment, because law enforcement is often just legalized violence. It's how laws are enforced in the US.
Something else I want to say (and I know this may not apply in most cases), is that not every local conservative governing body is going to ruin your life. There is a city in the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex called Lewisville that has a conservative governing body right now, but they are more interested in creating more green spaces and making the city more walkable than they are with culture war stuff. So, look into your local city government, show up to some meetings, assume they want the best for the place they live, and offer up viewpoints they hadn't considered. Not all of them are trying to win the culture war. Some are just trying to make their world a little better and are open to all kinds of ideas.
Alright! A fellow Agender pansexual! ❤🎉 i love being queer, pride all year long everyone!
At the very beginning, comparing "the arts / sports" is kinda funny because quite a bit in history art has been a "man's only" thing. Funny to watch things fluctuate throughout time.
i´d argue that very much depends on what you/who gets to define what counts as "art". artistic creations have very much been made by women for the longest part of history, which of course you know and didn´t argue against, i assume. fiber arts like embroidery have historically been excluded from the definition of "fine art". but what we nowadays count as art in the western world is a rather recent and very bourgeois concept -and i´d argue a very intentionally depoliticized one and made impotent by the ruling class. point is: revolutiooooooon against patriarchy, gendernormativitiy and the evil rich! :D :D
that said,...i don´t disagree with your point and wholeheartetly: YES! it is really interesting to watch things change and fluctuate over time. :)
*whispering* "Have you found the organs?!"
OOOOOOOH I HECKIN' LOVE LABELLING MYSELF AND FILLING THE VOID OH MY WOWZERINOOS
I'm 15 and ive known i was nb since 11/12, I've always felt somewhat disconnected from the term non binary, which may be from social media and how nonbinary ppl in my age group that present in alternative fashion and what not is whats pushed, and I dress much more casually and more stereotypically masculine, which often gets me labeled as either a teen boy or a lesbian by ppl idk.
I've kinda given up on even trying to appear as "non binary" to ppl (I'm just going to be labeled as male or female either way) if someone calls me the wrong pronoun especially in school I don't bother to correct them.
my transition goal is just to be me tbh 😭all I want is to continue to dress and appear as I want without constantly having to be pushed into boxes and labels (I prefer to just say I go by they/them rather than nonbinary because of ppl trying to make it into a 3rd box)
Same, I’m also 15 and I found out I wasnt cis when I was 12😭
@@GensChilledCola thanks for sharing 🫶💗, keep following what feels right for you , sounds like you’re on the right path
42:40 that analogy is so so helpful and important to hear. You literally put words to what I have been feeling as someone who is a daughter of immigrants. I think as humans we all have issues to some degree of letting go and allowing the new in, but it is vital to our existence as a human race and especially as queer people. Freedom scares people much more than they'd care to ever let on.
@@chr85168 the boxes and predefined labels can be very comfortable for some of us. But exploring and carving your own path can bring such a massive understanding of self.
I love that humans have so many ways of exploring gender and gender presentation! Absolutely beautiful
I am non-binary. Non-binary is a broad category which can mean many different things to many different people. Anyone who doesn't fit into the binary of man or woman can identify as non-binary.
For me personally, I kinda wish I had the ability to switch between being a man and a woman. In the online trans community, they have this thought experiment called "the button". If there was a magic button that could instantly transform you into the opposite sex, would you push it? It's a way for "eggs" to help discover that they are trans. For me, I wish I had a magic switch so that somedays I could be a man and somedays I could be a woman. Thats not really possible so I settle with aiming for an androgynous body and having a fluid gender expression. Some days I present masc, some days fem, some days in between. I found this way of living my life so freeing. I tried for a time to be binary, either a girl or a guy. Both felt like pretending to be someone else rather than being me. I feel more happy now that I am able to be my true self.
This. Yes. I 100% agree and relate with absolutely everything you just said. I would give absolutely anything to have a magic button to switch myself even down to my anatomy at will, but that isn't possible like you said. For me, this means my ability to gender express is very important. Unfortunately, I can't do that at all where I live currently, or I could get shot but... I'm existing I guess. Which is maybe better than nothing?
I 100% relate to this, but I also think that ‘non-binary’ is just another label and box. Sometimes I present more masculine, sometimes more feminine, most of the time androgynous and that’s the only way I feel free. Idk if you’ve seen it but there is a show called ‘gen v’, one of the characters can literally change their sex whenever they want and that’s just so cool and wholesome, I hope technology will develop to the such level so we can have something similar.😭😭😭
@@yaholliy7128 Yes. Im a fan of The Boys. I love Jordan. Lowkey get gender envy from them
@@radicalpasta7040 Omg, I get so much gender envy from them too. They are my absolute favorite out of everyone, hands down.
I really relate to feeling defensive about continuing to occupy the political designation of "woman" while identifying as non-binary. A term I've been using that I find helpful is "feminized person" because it extends beyond intersections to include anyone who is deemed "oppressable" for exhibiting femininity, intentionally or otherwise. I feel like I'm still going to change my presentation a lot but for now I don't want to completely discard my female identity because I think it's important to be visible as another mode of being.
Mmm very interesting! That’s a new term for us, thanks for sharing
As a latinx I testify that pursuing arts was a bigger disappointment for my parents than being trans 😂
@@etiennesportfolio latine*
@@person80 in spanish I use l use the e and x interchangeably because it means the same, thank you regardless but I'm going to stick with my format
hmm maybe i’m in the minority here but i see being nonbinary as being trans. one of the hosts mentioned that they’re different, and yes they are different but insofar as being nonbinary is a subcategory of being trans. you have transed your gender if you’re nonbinary, that’s how i see it! curious what other people think
i also want to point out some of the language usage, and i was excited to hear it think halal make a point about it, but when one of the hosts mentioned they didn’t transition/didn’t want to or however it was phrased and made a comment about their level of comfort in their body. it’s important that we DO NOT ascribe transitioning to altering one’s body. that can be part of the process but transitioning is much more than hormones or surgery! the social aspect of it is so so important and i feel like we just don’t talk about it when we have the “transitioning” conversation. you don’t even need to do anything physical to transition - changing your pronouns or picking a new name for example is gender affirming care and should be seen as transitioning imo! we needn’t separate the identity of “trans” into a super exclusionary group in which you have to hit certain benchmarks to be able to use the term - and this is coming from a lesbian who injects themself with hormones every week. it’s not necessary and the label is for anyone! we absolutely should be careful about generalizing experiences and not speaking over different trans people as i think it just makes it more difficult for everyone involved
Thanks for your perspective! ❤
i agree! ive been in trans spaces since like 2017 and this is literally the 1st time ive heard [a trans and/or nonbinary person] say nonbinary isnt trans, unless theyr like truscum/transmed or smth, which is just a bigoted exclusionary ideology thats best ignored. ive always thought trans just means anyone who dosnt fully id w the gender they were assigned at birth. im not gonna gatekeep the words ppl can use for themself so if a nonbinary person dosnt id w the label of trans i'll respect that, but i dont see the point in trying to change the definition of trans in general to only mean a binary trans person bc like, thats such a weirdly narrow box that just turns trans vs nonbinary into another binary, which in practice its not, bc like there are so many trans ppl who dont fit neatly into that binary, who identify mostly as the binary gender they werent assigned at birth, and mostly just call themself a trans woman/man for convenience, but still dont feel completely binary, or also identify as nonbinary as well, for example. and as gender norms continue to unravel as society keeps progressing towards being less gendered, and the amount of ppl who dont id w the gender binary will continue to increase as the extreme amount of pressure to be cis and/or binary continues to decrease, the trans/nonbinary binary will only become even less meaningful. so changing "trans" to only mean "binary trans" feels like a step backwards towards reinforcing the gender binary to me. and im saying this as a very stereotypically binary trans person who dosnt identify as nonbinary at all and just wants to pass as cis (for the binary gender i wasnt assigned at birth) btw, bc i can identify strongly w the binary gender that i wasnt assigned at birth and also recognise that the gender binary is harmful and the reason i identify completely within it is bc thats the system i was indoctrinated into since childhood which caused me to develop a deep sense of where im supposed to fit within that system, but it still would have been much better and less traumatising for me as a binary trans person to not have been indoctrinated into the gender binary to begin with, so i think its smth we should be trying to deconstruct as fast as we can for the good of everyone (including cis ppl), which means making the language of gender more inclusive not more narrow, imo.
in an ideal world children shouldnt have genders assigned to them at all (but should still have their identities and pronouns respected when/if they choose them), and then choosing to change ur hormones and sex characterstics neednt even be inherently associated w gender anymore :3
(/agreeing with u)
@@lulicacharlottescott9887 SO TRUE!!! nail SMACKED
A lot of people are talking about how identifying as non-binary felt freeing to them like the removal of rules and boxes, but can't they already do that without changing their gender though?
(geniune question not trying to be rude)
I think youre right, its partly just another way of fighting the patriarchal system, that assigns certain roles to people. But why do you look at this as the wrong way to normalize the absence of gender roles (social roles, appearance/self-presenting, roles in relationships) and queerness in general
I think gender non-conformity can look very different per person and it’s really about what feels right to you, and if it changes then go with the flow of what feels right. It’s like what Emily was saying about trying things on and seeing if it feels good to you
@@birdie_3 I dunno. I just feel like creating more genders to escape those boxes and rules is unnecessary and also avoiding the problem of those boxes and rules being there in the first place.
@@raylielume speaking as a gender abolitionist: what labels ppl can use is one of those rules ur refering to. letting ppl use wtv labels and pronouns they want for themself is one of the ways we break the rules of patriarchy, and allowing ppl that freedom is a step towards gender abolition. the more ppl identify outside of the gender they were assigned at birth, the more we question and learn abt gender as a society and all the ways it affects us, and the more the old pseudo-scientific bio-essentialist gender assumptions that uphold patriarchy are undermined and deconstructed. we can break all the rules simultaneously, and what words we can use for ourself is one of those rules. u can choose what label to use for urself and also fight against the norms associated w those labels at the same time. we shouldnt limit the ways ppl r allowed to not conform to patriarchal norms. the more we let everyone break all the rules and do what they want the faster the whole system of gender will deconstruct. the point is to stop enforcing any gendered rules at all and let everyone do what they want, and that includes letting ppl use the words that feel the most comfortable to them. if ur trying to keep enforcing some rules (what words ppl should use for themself) then ur still upholding a patriarchal norm.
and on the personal experiential level, to answer ur original question: the words ppl use to refer to us does affect us. and the way we identify changes the way ppl view and treat us and the way we interact with society. these words have deep psychological significance to us that we've internalised since childhood, and we cant help the fact that using different words does change how we feel abt ourself. alot of us have a significant amount of complex trauma and dysphoria associated with a label that was forced on us bc of everything that label represents in a gendered society, so choosing to not identify with that label can feel freeing and change how u feel and see urself and interact with others. identifying as nonbinary can change the way u see urself, and using that label openly with others also allows other ppl to see u and understand u for who r rlly are and stop projecting gendered assumptions onto u that u dont identify with. bc the reality is that most ppl *do* identify with the gender that was assigned to them at birth, and it *does* actually have alot of meaning for them about who they are and how they fit into society, even if that meaning is subconscious and taken for granted like it often is for cisgender ppl. so not identifying with that gender also has just as much meaning and does change how others see u and how u see urself.
anyway, wtv the psychological reasons, millions of ppl do find that it does help them to use the label for themself that feels best for them, so why would u want to limit their freedom and stop them from being able to make their life better within this oppressive system? /rh. as much as u try to intellectually justify the idea that labels *shouldnt* affect ppl, the reality is that under the current patriarchal system, for alot of ppl these words *do* deeply affect us, and thats not smth u can just intellectually argue away. and the more we stop controlling each other and let everyone do whatever makes them the most comfortable, including using the labels and pronouns that make them most comfy, the faster the whole system of gender will crumble. gender abolition means taking away all the rules, not taking away words that ppl r allowed to use for themself and therefore continuing an aspect of the oppressive systems of gendered control.
and if u still dont get it after reading all this, dont @ me bc if this isnt enuf explanation for u then i no longer believe ur asking in good faith and i dont want to talk to u /boundary.
I’d argue you’re attacking other people’s freedom as well. You say you’re a gender abolitionist and that’s homophobic. If anybody can be any gender that erases homosexuality. The feminist movement was working towards allowing any person to be whatever they want regardless if they are a man or a woman and your movement constantly puts gender in the forefront. Man or woman is just that, a label. And it’s up to every individual how they want to go about it. I think what your movement is doing is creating more gender stereotypes and dysphoria because you are the ones assuming there are strict gender roles when there really isn’t.
‘Just be nice to people, it’s not hard’ REAL
truly!
Another incredible episode from one of my favorite podcasts, thank you!
@@paulharper6835 thank you so much for listening 💗🫶 appreciate you
I'm genderfluid (trans/enby), and I see a little of myself in each of you guyz. If I had grown up with that kind of representation in media, maybe my life would've been so different to how it is now. I grew up very isolated and alienated in the bible belt and in a very conservative state. I'm still stuck there unfortunately, so I am still very much closeted because I don't feel safe at all. No one around me liked me because I was different. I was ostracized by my own family, peers, and just the general public. Even when I forced myself to conform, they still didn't like me. I didn't know what or who I was after a while. I lost myself somewhere along the way.
When I met my online gay best friend, I finally started to slip into being myself again instead of always being coded to hide EVERYTHING about me. I felt comfort and happiness for the first time in my life. An ease of existence I had never ever felt before. It felt more natural than breathing and very much like it was a breath of fresh air after spending a long time underground in a musty cellar. Watching you guyz talking to each other in a room together feels like I'm catching up with long lost friends. I hope that doesn't sound weird, because I obviously don't know any of you at all, but it's just a connection to others that I never got to feel for the first 30+ years of my life. I hope that makes sense.
Thank you so much for this video. It means so much to me and words could never truly express how I feel, but I get the feeling many here might know exactly what that feeling is too.♥
Thank you for sharing so vulnerably and I’m so sorry you don’t feel safe enough to be yourself in the outside world. I’m glad we could provide some comfort and know that your story and your happiness and authenticity matter so so much and I hope you get to fully experience it one day 💕 keep being you, you are enough
Personally I am very very queer but also firmly binary, watching people I know or even content creators I know come out as nonbinary is a great passtime. It's like raising your plants where you can assume something interesting will be happening but never quite sure how they will grow, very cool
LOVED this episode!! I would love to see an episode talking with members of the asexual or aromantic communities/spectrums!
@@evaaaxsheep ah we’ve been trying for quite a while to find the right guests for this one. If you know of any Ace / aro educators or influencers you’d like to see let us know! It’s an episode we definitely want to do
@@QueerCollective Ace Dad Advice, Spacey Aces, and Rowan Ellis are some of my favorite aro/ace spec creators
Evie Lupine is an openly Ace creator and kink educator and Amp from Watts the Safeword is a gay demisexual kink educator, both here on RUclips. Though maybe they would be suited to a different episode topic lol
For me personally as a Gender-Fluid(Non-Binary) person, I see the term Non-Binary as a very freeing label. Non-Binary simply means anyone that doesn’t fit in the boxes of man and woman, so it feels like the pressure of doing certain things and acting a certain way for the sake of fitting into a box has just be lifted. I feel more comfortable doing whatever I want just because I want to, and not because I’m trying to fit in one or the other box.
I felt this my entire life. I'm also genderfluid (trans/enby), and I was always being forced into a box that I not only didn't fit it but also didn't WANT to be in. For me being non-binary is having the freedom to exist, express, and enjoy anything you want to regardless of how upset that may make others that you don't fit the mold. Sometimes, I am a woman. Sometimes, I am a man. Sometimes, I'm some combination of both. Sometimes, neither at all. My gender is very fluid, and I would describe it like water. I have many different states of being that are obvious but also many other states of being in-between. It took me a long time to unlearn the need to fit the mold I was given at birth because I thought it would make people like me even though it never did.
So if non binary means they don't fit into man or woman then why are they man or woman then ?
36:43 Same here. It's also the easiest, at least when it comes to dating and longer relationships. Straight people always have the straight friends for whom you have to hold a continuous Q&A session. It's exhausting
I used to identify as non-binary and i can relate to a lot of the things people have mentioned. I think the biggest thing for me was just that i didn't feel like my assigned gender or like any gender. I still don't tbh. I stopped labelling as nb because i have a bad habit of trying to fit myself into a box and thus i had to be masc or androgynous, because i kept getting misgendered regardless, and because i hated having to explain my identity to everyone. I think it's so difficult to exist as nb in this day and age, even though it's more well known.
In the end i actually feel happier refusing to label myself or give myself pronouns. I feel more free that way. I can't be misgendered if i have no gender lol. And there's no way my brain will force me to dress. I guess technically you could call this being agender though I'm trying to avoid labels. I'm honestly happy to just call myself a lesbian. It's what i identify with the most. I think a lot of lesbians can relate to the gender nonconformity and gender fuckery that comes along when you are a lesbian.
I'm glad though that some people are finding more freedom with the nb label. Just don't put yourself in a box like i did 😅 you don't need surgery or to dress a certain way or even change your name to be valid x
I hope Heath has, since growing up, educated themselves about the struggles of intersex people. I know they were a kid so I dont blame them, but as an intersex nonbinary person it does always make me feel weird when other nonbinary people talk about their identity in reference to intersex. Again cant blame them as a kid. But maybe second guess telling that story,or add some stuff about how to help actual interaex people too!
Thanks for sharing! We’ve been looking into finding the right guests to help us explore a specifically intersex episode ❤
An intersex episode would be great ^^
00:00 🗳️ Non-binary identity emphasizes autonomy and the removal of rigid societal rules.
00:13 🌈 Gender affirming practices can exist without surgery or hormones.
01:18 🎤 The podcast explores non-binary identities, societal expectations, and gender dysphoria.
01:34 🌟 Heath V Salazar is introduced as an award-winning performer and writer.
02:19 🌸 Emily recently came out as non-binary after identifying as a woman for most of her life.
02:37 🌌 Halal uses her platform to celebrate queer culture and critique societal constructs.
03:19 ⚖️ Non-binary identities challenge societal binaries, encouraging personal exploration of gender.
04:30 🎨 Embracing non-binary identities allows for fluidity between masculine and feminine expressions.
05:44 💡 Gender and sexuality exist on a spectrum, promoting acceptance of diverse identities.
07:06 🛡️ Personal autonomy in gender expression is key, allowing individuals to redefine their relationships to masculinity and femininity.
08:52 💭 The societal understanding of non-binary identities is still evolving, with many still questioning their own identities.
09:15 💥 Non-binary people often navigate societal expectations and challenges to find their unique expressions.
10:28 🎭 Halal reflects on growing up in a conservative environment while exploring gender boundaries.
11:45 🔍 Heath realized they weren't cisgender from a young age, struggling with societal gender norms.
13:14 🔄 The podcast emphasizes the importance of representation in understanding and exploring non-binary identities.
17:24 📚 Access to diverse representations helps reduce confusion around gender identity, particularly for children.
18:30 🛡️ Limiting knowledge and education can lead to greater confusion and misunderstanding in society.
20:00 🤔 Struggling with societal expectations around trans identity and personal expression.
20:18 🧬 Society's rigid standards complicate the understanding and acceptance of trans and non-binary identities.
21:30 🌈 Community dynamics often create pressure to conform to certain gender expressions.
22:00 🌟 Personal acceptance of identity evolves over time, allowing for diverse expressions of gender.
23:12 🧑🎤 Gender-affirming practices extend beyond surgery and hormones; they include personal style choices.
24:30 🛤️ Non-binary identities can serve as a stepping stone for understanding one's trans identity.
25:50 💡 Connection to womanhood can be complex, influenced by personal and cultural experiences.
26:40 👗 Performing femininity can feel disingenuous, as seen in personal experiences at traditional events.
27:10 🎭 Code-switching highlights the complexities of identity performance in various social contexts.
29:00 🌍 Cultural backgrounds shape expectations of gender and masculinity, impacting personal journeys.
30:05 🚫 Pressure to conform to gender norms often leads to struggles within queer communities.
31:20 💔 Understanding and respect are vital in navigating familial expectations around gender identity.
32:45 🏳️🌈 Gender and sexuality are deeply intertwined, often leading to questions about labels and attraction.
35:20 🔄 Labels can be flexible; attraction to individuals transcends strict categories of gender and sexuality.
36:45 🏳️🌈 Identifying as queer allows for broader exploration of attraction beyond traditional definitions.
37:30 🔍 Understanding misogyny and discrimination within queer spaces is crucial for creating inclusive communities.
38:10 ✊ Acknowledging the history and presence of trans men in lesbian spaces fosters inclusivity and understanding.
40:03 🎤 Discussion of navigating gender identity and space within conversations about trans experiences.
40:39 🏳️🌈 Importance of inclusivity for all trans and non-binary identities in advocacy and representation.
41:06 🌈 Queer spaces provide a unique environment for diverse identities to coexist, despite existing phobias within the community.
41:49 🕰️ Historical context matters; past visibility struggles inform current identity discussions and fears around representation.
43:00 📈 Rise in non-binary identity visibility correlates with cultural changes and increased media representation since 2014.
45:04 🌍 Accessibility of information allows younger generations to explore and understand their gender identities more freely.
47:48 🧒 Kids need supportive environments to explore their identities without fear of negative consequences or societal rejection.
49:10 📚 Language evolves, and changing it to be inclusive is essential for societal progress; fear of change shouldn't hinder acceptance.
51:30 ✊ Respecting others’ identities is fundamental; understanding is less important than acknowledging and honoring their experiences.
51:42 🎙 Thanks expressed to guests for their contributions to the discussion on gender and sexuality exploration.
this representation you are doing is so cool and intelligent and fair
Thank you so much 😊
With regards to the identity of non-binary, I was always a bit sceptical, in the sense that I didn't think it couldn't exist, but I always felt like "you can be different from the society's norm of man or women and still be a man or woman, you dont need a different identity for this". I guess being a millenial in a Muslim country (albeit a secular one) really nails that binary in your head. I found this discussion so helpful and so insightful for understanding the thought behind non-binary. I was fascinated by Heath's intersex dysphoria and Carvin's adamant attitude of keeping she/her pronouns to challenge the society's idea of what a woman is. Thank you for this lovely episode, it was a delight to listen to you all ❤
It’s so frustrating because as a nonbinary person I get so upset when I wear my favorite color pink, people just assume I use she/her pronouns. No matter how short my hair is or what I do people don’t seem to see me.
It’s because people will never ‘see you’ the first time they meet you. They see your gender, race, style, etc. So it’s better to not care about how others perceive you. In the end gender is just a social construct and it’s weird to limit yourself just because you want others to notice your gender. When you care so much about ‘looking non-binary’ you are basically putting yourself in a strict system. It would make sense if you were trans, because they want/need to pass, that’s the whole thing. But since you are non-binary you can just stop thinking about it.
I personally think that gender is stupid and it limits ppl, I dress and act how I want, idc if ppl will say that I’m not feminine enough/im too masculine, I just live and feel freedom.
Usually ppl think that being non-binary helps you escape the binary system, but it also creates certain restrictions(the same thing with agender) so just stop thinking so much about it and express yourself how you want, dress how you want, use pronouns that you wanna use.
@@yaholliy7128 I don’t need you to explain to me how I should feel about how I look. It hurts every time someone uses she/her pronouns with me. Yes I understand that being nonbinary puts me outside of the gendered ideals. Well aware. You also don’t know the fullness of my identity so please back off. Saying “you’re not trans so you can’t be upset when someone misidentifies you” is just inaccurate.i understand you’re trying to be “helpful” but you just don’t know me a stranger on the internet at all to be able to say any of that. I would love to have thick skin and be called a things I’m not constantly, but that’s not who I am.
So take your unsolicited “advice” elsewhere.
@@Xenocrossingsorry if I sounded rude, English is not my first language. I’m not saying you can’t be upset, I’m saying that you have an ability to literally stop caring and it’s extremely cool in my opinion. I meant to support you and say that in the future everything will be better.
My favorite color isn't pink, but I like wearing clothes more on the fem side, so people use she/her pronouns for me all the time, and it's so invalidating and dysphoric. So I really feel you on this.
I understood you. @@yaholliy7128
im trying to find out, like im not dysphoric or anything but i dont feel like a girl, but i dont want to be masculine or androginous, i just want to be, and i happen to be very feminine but not a woman
Maybe you are agender?
Agender: of, relating to, or being a person who has an internal sense of being neither male nor female nor some combination of male and female.
: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is genderless or neutral.
Great discussion; there were some real gems and one liners.
Thank you for watching 💕
im confused bc why do clothes, tone of voice, and demeanor make u feminine or masculine if yall dont believe in labels? and if masculine basically stands for male and feminine female , wouldnt yall be agreeing that there’s only two genders?
We’re more so speaking on how we present to society, which does have a binary predisposition. I would highly recommend checking out our episode called “are you straight or is it compulsory heterosexuality” we really deep dive on what it means to be a woman/man and femininity/masculinity.
NB for me is feel a third gendered mostly, but also moving within the binary as trans
OMG i just saw yall on my tiktok??? And now Ur here on my feed!! Watching you laterrrr
oh yay!!
Curious if you'd do a follow-up non-trinary or outherine episode, the idea that the bimodal spectrum is not encompassing the variety life can bring, and sometimes pigeonholes people into compulsory androgyny, or into a reactionary mindset built strictly to be compared to cis binary people rather than to truly be free.
To me, it’s freedom
Love that
Wow I also grew up in Kuwait when I left in 2006 but I was 12 what the hell I really wish we got to flup genders for a day sounds soooo fun. I went to Indian Britain system School though. I'm also middle eastern too
Ahhhh that would have been cool to experience. Thanks for sharing 💕
Halal Bae ❤❤❤ luv all thx
❤❤❤
Heath Gay Jesus is so cool, they're the kind of queer I wanna be, with the boobs and the beard 🤩 I got the boobs and a little goatee already but maybe one day I'll get HRT and grow even more hair xD
To me, non-binary means freedom. Freedom from gendered expectations, freedom to wear whatever the hell I want, freedom to queer my body however I please.
@@Mx-Alba 💗💗👏👏👏
😂 the funniest was when the one said:
"I hang out with my other transmasculine friends and then think, ok I am not a man, not a man."
Has there been any studies involving the Neurology of nonbinary people?
It’s crazy how they can make a podcast about being inclusive when you have a person blatantly calling himself “gay Jesus” as if that’s okay. They don’t care how Christian’s feel about that at all
How is that not inclusive. Jesus could’ve been gay
Hello there. First of all, very interesting conversation! I'm a gay man and I've been looking for information about being non-binary for quite some time and I must say that it is hard. I feel like there is an abyssal disconnection between me and this relatively new identification, and this skepticism is causing friction between me and the community. I have been told that some of what I say is transphobic or that I'm just a horrible person for thinking what I think. I don't want to be perceived as such, but I can't help it; my thought process is to first understand and then believe. I have a few questions and I would love to hear the answers and get closer to a more profound connection with y'all.
1) Are you aware that the definition itself is quite muddy? I get the fluctuation, the fluidity, and that every experience is different, but are you conscious that this perception is extremely subjective? From the outside, I can't see it; only you can perceive what you are and what you feel, etc. I'm sorry to say this so openly in this comment section that deserves to be inclusive 100%, but I don't think I will ever perceive you as non-binary, or a no-woman or no-man, or agender, etc. I recognize that you have a different way of perceiving gender, but I really can't dive into it. If someone that I love were to tell me that they are agender, I would still see the gender. Even with trans people: I recognize them socially as the gender they display and, coherently, I consider them trans men and trans women, not men and women. I would love to see from your lens, but I really can't. What do you think about it? Am I being disrespectful?
2)What is queerness then? In the podcast, they say "attracted to queerness," but what does it mean? Like, attracted to gender non-conforming people? The way they look? The interests that you have in common? "Attracted to non-binary" really puzzled me. What do you mean? Again, I'm sorry to say this, but you still present yourself as a male or a female despite the identification as non-binary. At this point, what do you mean by "attracted"? Is it not about physiological impulses? Do you mean "I want to be around people that I know are non-binary" for some reason? "I'm not attracted to straight people," what does it mean? Again, is it the way they present themselves? One last thing that I really don't get is "being gay is so different than being queer." Like I said in the beginning, what is queerness then?
3)The entire concept of pansexuality. I think I get it, but I don't know if I'm interpreting it "the right way." So in brief, a pansexual individual decides to use this label because they primarily believe that there are more than two genders. In order to be more inclusive, a gay male person might use this label because non-binary people exist, and since these particular individuals may have no gender or many genders, he can't be just a gay man; he must be pansexual because he is interested in a person that doesn't have a gender. Like I said, this is really muddy, and I would love to see through it more clearly.
4)I was surprised that the topic of autism wasn't mentioned. I did some research and found a correlation between autism and gender non-conforming behaviors. It makes sense since autistic people are known to challenge social norms, live by their perception of the world, and tend to have interdependency with each other and find community smoothly. What do you think about it? Never in a million years would I stigmatize non-binary identities or non-binary people by finding a cause-effect mechanism; this is me being genuinely curious.
I know this is an intricate topic, and I understand that some individuals will consider this questions as an attack on their existence, but that's okay. As an atheist, I will never believe in something just because someone tells me to, and I encourage everyone to use critical thinking in every aspect of their life.
Commenting because I am also looking forward to the answers for this.
Great questions! Another problem that comes with being ‘non-binary’ is straight up sexism, gender stereotypes and restrictions. I used to identify as non-binary 5-6 years ago until I realised that it’s just another box, instead of freedom you get another limitations. ‘Non-binary is not fitting into binary system’, but you can be not feminine and still be a woman, you can be not masculine and still be a man. People will still judge based on stereotypes so I also don’t really get the point.
I think this is a really interesting conversation and while I don’t know all the answers, I think I could answer no.3 as a bisexual nonbinary person;
It’s not that bisexuals only believe/are attracted to just two genders (though there are bisexuals who are attracted to just 2 genders) but that the specific way a bi or pan person might experience attraction would be different. In my experience, I don’t identify as pansexual because I am not attracted to all genders and I am attracted to different genders in different amounts. A pansexual person might not entirely experience that, so they’d identify as pansexual. This is just a small part of attraction, since it includes romantic and sexual attraction (but that enters into aro/ace territory)
There is a lot of overlap between bisexuality and pansexuality but the distinction matters to a lot of people. And for gays and lesbians, if their span of attraction includes nonbinary people, then they’re free to identify as either gay/lesbian or whatever label they think fits them best. Many bisexuals in the past would identify under the gay or lesbian labels, so there’s definitely space for that.
To be entirely honest, a persons choice of labeling is 100% up to them. Two gay men may have different modes of attraction (one might be attracted to nonbinary people or trans men and one might not) but still call themselves gay men. You don’t have to change your label unless you really want to.
Hope this clears things up
@@yaholliy7128
I struggle with this too tbh. I don't want to invalidate people. I've labelled as NB and I've genuinely felt dysphoria and I know what it feels like to just not identify with being a man or a woman. I still struggle a little with what it means to identify as a gender, though now I do feel a connection to womanhood through lived experience if that counts for anything 🤷🏿
When I was nb, I felt so much pressure to conform to androgyny or being more masc, simply because I didn't want to be misgendered. I ended up putting myself in another box. But then again, that's just me. There are plenty of NBs that don't give into that mentality. Right now I'm toying with the idea of just being a gender nonconforming female person and not having a gender or preferred pronouns. I think this might be the way I can deal with my discomfort the most, but it's probably different for everyone
@@fujoshipeanut5074 I had really similar experience, but I don’t feel any connection to womanhood, i just know that i went through female gender socialisation although it didn’t really affect me. I hope that new idea will work out for you!!💕
In my opinion it’s kinda pointless to identity as any gender, because it’s a huge step back. And rn because of the society we live in some masculine women are being called men, trans, nb because they don’t fit in the ‘woman box’, powerful women of the past are being called amab, because they were strong and its ‘not woman-like’.
Due to all of that I think we as a society should try to destroy gender as a concept as much as possible or at least we should stop making it all worse.
What is the difference between genderfluidity and non binairy
Maybe it could be more than that as genderfuid that masculine & feminine periods come & go
Non binairy is more stady!
But i feel i miss something!
I appreciate the discussion and learning more about the perspectives and experiences of the speakers, thank you!
I do have a lot of thoughts, but on the non-binary topic in particular…
If this simply meant gender nonconforming, then I’d be fully on board. However, I feel like it can potentially cause the very regression that it attempts to stray from.
The vast majority of the time (not 100%), we can tell who is a man or a woman. Yes, HRT and other surgical interventions can change what we perceive, but that’s superficial (and totally ok, adults in a free society within reason can do what they choose and should never be harassed or called names).
So when I see, for instance, a woman who identifies as non-binary, I see that as a woman who doesn’t conform or doesn’t want to conform to certain expectations. It doesn’t mean she isn’t a woman. Making statements like “I didn’t FEEL like a man or woman” doesn’t make sense to me, because man and woman are immutable characteristics. We don’t have an invisible “gender soul” apart from our biological sex, but we are all different and many of us aren’t “typical” of our gender/sex. A man can live as if he were a woman (or just in a very “fem” manner), or vice versa, especially with the help of medical science to appear more as such. Furthermore, emphasis on “non-binary” as a category in and of itself seems to emphasize that being a man or a woman has requisite requirements or characteristics. I think we need to focus on pushing back on creating a world where being a man or a woman doesn’t mean you HAVE to dress or behave a certain way, but that never changes what we are in a definitional sense.
I think everybody deserves basic respect, dignity, and freedom. I see nothing wrong with somebody calling themselves non-binary, but to me that doesn’t mean they aren’t a man or a woman in reality. Similarly to how if someone is trans, they are and will always be the sex they were born as, but they are living as if they were the opposite (which again, in a free society, is fine in and of itself) and therefore may have varied secondary sex characteristics or simply are not fully “feminine” or fully “masculine” which can be subjective to a degree.
this podcast would really benefit from more transfem presence
We feature transfem people on the podcast as well 💕
Oh I see, interesting, very unique
Thank you 😊
This was interesting. I've noticed nonbinary males are typically feminine. I've never seen a masculine nonbinary male. There also is another observable trait the four of these archetypes share that I'm going to further look into. I've also noticed this with every other nonbinary person as well.
blueberry or non binary
the way y'all just spent an hour dissecting your own identities & assigning microlabels to every aspect of your lives is so contradictory to the description of this video lol
Latįn!
I'm sorry but I tried this to try and understand but the things you all say are so regressive and sexist and backwards.
I agree. I am still listening to the full video in good faith attempt at understanding, but there are just so many issues I’m finding that are difficult to summarize briefly (nothing against the speakers personally)
I'm a transexual woman and i agree it just doesn't make any sense to me , it comes across more like gender expression rather than gender identity, they usually almost always say they are neither male or female but your literally born biologicaly male or female it's a sex not a gender , and then there's when they say it's because they are more masculine than feminine that they are neither man or a woman, but you can be a high fem man or high masc woman , I have been trying to understand this for years and I'm still left with a question mark , no disrespect to the individual though il call them by their pronouns I've no reason to be rude even if I don't understand it fully.
@@rosannam7623 yeah
How ridiculous. These people have no lives or common sense.
You’re the only anti-lgbt+ comment here. I’m surprised your comment hasn’t been deleted by RUclips yet.
@@binghamguevara6814 no
@@binghamguevara6814I just made a comment that you can interpret as being anti- alphabet people .
I am pro truth though , and the truth can hurt those who are blinded to it .
"Jesus Christ said , "IAM the Way the Truth and the Life. No-one comes to the Father but through Me" .
Jesus is the Way to the Father , the Truth of all things ( Reality) and the Life , ( Eternal Life)
"The Cross is an offence to those perishing , but is power to those being saved"
Male and Female He created us . 😊
🇬🇧♥️✝️🇮🇱
Wonderfully informative! I have a much better idea of the landscape that is being explored. I am part the leading edge of GenX but also very open minded. Great discussion.