It's wild how these values can impact your prints based on the filament you use! Checkout the quick and easy test print! www.printables.com/model/1038477-support-removal-test-no-more-stuck-supports makerworld.com/en/models/700778
Remember, this is IN RELATION TO YOUR LAYER HEIGHT! For a .2 layer height, everything here applies, but for a .1 or .3 layer heights it will be different. In this case just take the .X for the layer and set the Z distance accordingly. (Example: for a .1 layer height, set the Z distance to .12 or .14 or .16 and so on)
It will still round it to the nearest multiple of the layer height. So in your example, there is no difference between 0.12 and 0.14 with a layer height of 0.1. It will give a 0.1 gap for both. Try it out and see in the slicer. At least.. this is how it works with Prusa Slicer.
@@twinturbostang In Cura it's always rounded up to the nearest multiple, so 0.12 on 0.1 layer height becomes a 0.2 gap. Unfortunately there is no conceivable way a 3D printer could make the info that's given in this vid work so it won't matter which slicer is chosen in the end.
@@YoubYoub-f8k So why do slicers let us put any number in there without telling us it's rounding up? Why not do the calculation so the moment you click out of the input it changes to what you're saying. Why do it the way they do now and cause so much confusion?
@@trebory6 Well it's unfortunate I can't post pics in the comments. Just open Cura up an hover your mouse over the name "Support Z Distance" or the input box. A full description on it's functionality will appear. Hope this helped.
@YoubYoub-f8k OrcaSlicer has an option 'Independent support layer height' that, as the name implies, allows it to command support printing at variable Z-intervals.
adjusting temperature can also affect it. you maybe printing the green filament "hot" compared to the black the additives in the filaments for color can affect how well they print at different temperature. this then affects adhesion
I just witnessed this - same filament for 2 prints. On the first I modified my extruder temp from 210C to 200C after the 10th layer, but forgot to do that with the second. The first model's tree supports came off cleanly, but the second section's supports required enough pressure to remove that I broke two of the parts that were stuck in the removal.
This is why you are the GOAT. Settings are not cut and dry or one-size-fits-all, seeing you break down settings, reasons, and showing comparisons it so much help for a novice like myself. some prints come perfect, others not. its easy to get frustrated, but nice to see others with failed prints too sometimes, even when dialed in. lol.
For PLA I always just use 2x the layer height (AKA, skip 1 layer), that seems to work every time for me. So when printing at .2 layer height, i do top distance .4, and when doing 0.08 layer height, i do top Z distance of 0.16.
glad you made this, because the other day I was trying to figure out why I hadn't changed my support settings but yet my supports were completly welded to the print
Had some prints today with difficult to remove supports - having an easy way to test them will help a lot! I also didn't realize that it varies with filament. Now that I know that, I'll definitely be testing new filaments before printing supports with them. Thanks for the video and the models!
@@ayodelemarvellous850 sometimes. In this case, designing it to avoid supports would be tricky and I had limited time to make the design. But I do usually try to design so I don't need supports.
Top Z will also affect the surface quality that are being supported When leaving a higher distance from the support to the supported structure you'll encounter much more stringing and droop so I feel like you should have brought this up as a factor to deciding how much distance is being used.
This is amazing! I can't believe no one has ever done a video like this before. I've already watched it five times and told all my friends to watch it too. Nice work!!
You watched it five times because you couldn't remember that you just need to adjust the one setting? In any case this is hardly new. There's been several videos about it.
This model was one of the very first prints I ever did with an undialed in CR-10s and cura didnt have tree/organic supports yet. You just brought back support removal nightmares
OMG thank you... a few of my prints have been nightmares removing my supports, I'm testing this right now ! I was having problems on one that sat over night, one that I let cool a little and even one fresh off the plate!
Ok best video ever, thx you just helped me solve a setting I have had set at zero. I hatted tree support and now it’s so easy to remove supports. That’s why you’re the MVP on my printing team. Thx
I just had an idea that would help all the tests. There could be a modification that allows you to write the reference of a parameter in the part. For example, instead of manually entering the Top Z Distance, you would place the variable in a specific location of the part, and as soon as you change the Top Z Distance value, the slicer would replace it in the final print.
Great video. I found this a while ago after having an absolute nightmare with tree supports. The other thing which is worth looking at is if you actually need "Top interface Layers" or not. 90% of my prints now I have set this to zero and it prevents support from creating that top raft and just sends tree supports all the way to where the support is needed.
This is a great info video. Cleaning supports I have done has been a challenge to almost impossible. I can't wait to try these settings on my next print. Again, thank you Uncle jesse for your time you use to do these tests to make it easier for us.
Fun trick: If you have a big flat overhang for some reason (like the test prints), you can pause the print at that layer and scribble over the grid supports with sharpie (laundry marker). PLA doesn't stick to that. You can use a zero-offset grid support and not have it stick at all. Obviously of limited use, but if you want (say) text embossed on both top and bottom of your print, it's pretty easy.
I think the Z distance is always a multiple of your chosen layer height. If you enter anything that isn't a multiple, the slicer will just default to the nearest multiple. That's why you're not seeing the variation you might have been expecting in your results.
So are you saying the slicers override the value that you input for the supports? I think the biggest factor I saw with this test was that even if I run the exact same .gcode file the difference in the filament I'm using can impact my support removal. In this case the Matte Black vs the Rapid Green PLA needing a higher Z Distance - Thanks for checking it out and the additional input!
I agree, in orca with a 0.8mm nozzle and 0.6mm layer heigth, I can't dial the support distance between layer lines even though I have the option "independant support layer height" turned on
No its because the supports are too small to matter (and tree supports too). Also he didnt check the quality of the overhangs to actually see the difference.
Elegoo rapid pla plus is now my go to for printing as it’s been the easiest fillet ive used when it comes to me removing supports. Black was good but when I couldn’t get it I ordered white and it’s been even better they just pop right off
Great info and timely for me as I'm about to print something that needs center support, and a smaller version with the particular filament I'm using was an absolute bear to remove. What I wound up doing with that is hitting it with a heat gun a bit to soften things up a little, which let me get the support off clean. There's a balance between melting the print and softening that interface layer just enough, but if you start small and apply more heat as needed, it can really save a lot of headache and reprinting.
That was awesome. It was very fun to watch and learn about those parameters. If I'm in trouble with supports, I'll remember this. Maybe you could do a video about stringing issues? Funfact: if I use Orcaslicer, my prints are string-a-paloosa. Printing the same object sliced in Cura, everything is fine. I even copied the Cura settings over to Orca; Orca just looooves to produce me hairy prints. Modifying reatract, Z-hop, wipe etc. nothing worked. Now I'm using Orca just for splitting bigger objects, exporting them and finally print them over Cura for the results I hoped to achieve with just Orcaslicer 😅
Matte PLA supports are much more easier to remove, compared to the regular PLA. I'm using Bambu printers and 98% of my prints are printed with 0.2mm layer height and the Z gap for supports is set to 0.1mm. This works absolutely amazing for me, removing the supports is a joy. Also, recently I tried matte PLA for the support base layers in the regular PLA prints and it gives a result very close to the PETG supports.
I think a great addition to this would be to compare the same settings with the Tree supports vs the Standard supports and see if there is a big difference between those two styles as well.
Bambu P1S ships with a small amount of filament called "Support material for PLA" which is supposed to act as a top layer for your supports that makes them east to peel off. Not tried it yet, but apparently it works. Others have said that using PETG on a PLA print in the same way also works as they are somewhat incompatible which makes them easy to peel off.
i printed exact the same xenomorph in the past. i oriented it, that the tail was pointing upside. it turned out great and die supports were (relative) easy to remove.
Make filament extrusion width smaller than nozzle width or flow ratio lower on supports specifically, whatever your slicer allows, you get deliberately underextruded supports that sort of just flake off.
In Prusa Slicer (v 2.8.1), it seems the top z distance is rounded to a multiple of the layer height. So 0.28, for example, is going to round up to 0.3 if your layer height is 0.1, but will round down to 0.2 if your layer height is 0.2.
I am under the same belief that top Z distance was only in increments of your layer height.... if .2 layer = 0.0, 0.2, .04 top Z height. you can set the Top Z height to any thing in-between but rounds to the layer height and does not make a difference. I use Cura 5.7 (since Cura 3.x) Can anyone confirm otherwise for Prusa Slicer / Cura / Other?
If you think about it, this is a layer adhesion problem, just in reverse. While with the print itself, you want good layer adhesion, but between the support and the print you want weak layer adhesion, the closest to failure without actually failing, the better. So you basically have to consider the same factors. This also implies that printers being able to use different materials from the print for support will have an advantage for cleaner separation.
My fav on social media is a lot of people just say change the threshold angle. which from reading the info that pops when you hover on the box made no sense, but I didn't know til a few days ago myself its the z distance that is the major factor. this video should help a lot of people get proper information.
I've learned from experience that the trick to removing supports is to not just pull hard but to work it back and forth. After a few cycles it starts to crack and you can hear that. Just keep working it and eventually it just falls off.
I noticed something just yesterday.... I was printing a rather large flat to the plate surface that had multiple tree supports underneath. They were hard to remove of course but I noticed something.... On the surface above each support connection the was a matching melted indention. These round supports are funneling HOT air up and assisting in fusing these supports to the main piece! And yes, the more malleable the filament the more easily it fused! So could you run smaller or less supports so that the heat isn't constantly being transferred up to the supported part? Looking at your green Alien print, and the number of supports, I'm guessing the fusing is coming down from the heated filament ABOVE the supports. What do you think sir?
Hey Jess, Just wanted to let you know that there is a new filament manufacture in Buffalo Called Factory Filament if your not familar with them, The have this Filament Called DuraPet, its a type of Pet that is strong, sticks really well to the bed, doesn't need a heated chamber, and no fans. I'm gonna be getting some black and white this week when they get restocked. Thought you might want to try it out since they are somewhat a local company. They are literly half a mile from my house!
If you put all the small ones on the plate and modify the support settings per-object, you can export that file and the settings will work for any printer that imports it into Orca.
Well thats interesting. I never took a look at this setting and i always wondered why i had sometimes trouble with support removing. This was very helpful since I do a Neptune 4 and High Speed PLA from eSUN
Another thing you could tweak/optimize, is the overhang angle. Quite easy to create a test block with different overhang angels (going from 45° to 60° e.g. with 1° or 2.5° increments)
Making a vid about supports for miniatures now with 1 hour duration. For minis there's a significant sag with overhangs/supported regions in my current best profile, but indeed making overhangs printable is a good thing to keep in mind with some exceptions.
@@UncleJessy You can check out existing vid and short with showcase if you have some time. Those are kinda teasers for the process I've been working on for years and have refined very well lately. I can't afford to have a resin printer in home, and fumes are a concern for me and wife with our space and ventilation. Waiting for a tinymaker tho.
You also need to make sure that you have the "Independent Support Layer Height" option is turned on if you're using OrcaSlicer, and this will not work the same when using a purge block. If you're using a purge block you will only be able to choose a gap that is a multiple of the layer height. If using a purge block and you put in a Top Z distance that is not a multiple of the layer height the slicer will automatically choose a gap that is a multiple of the layer height setting.
Hi! uncle jessy, loving your videos. Certainly you have helped me a lot with my development as a printer-person hobbiest? haha not sure how to say it. Also I was wondering which program did you use to make that model? hopefully you can see my comment
An interesting thing I've found with filament is that black is ALWAYS different. Matte and Deep Black PLAs are the only "normal" PLAs that I have different settings for on my Ender 3, and the only filaments I have ran flow calibration for on my Bambu P1S. Some of my most common issues are actually visible at 5:21 on your top layers where you have small gaps and a pillowing effect. I have a feeling that because the colour black absorbs heat more than others, there is something different happening to the adhesion between layers compared to a lighter colour. Layers and walls are generally still very strong, but it always needs 1-2% higher extrusion than other colours. Maybe it's contracting more than other colours between layers and that's why the supports in this instance are coming away so easily
I find that if I go much above 0.1 distance, my overhands look horrible. For context, I mostly print in ABS so overhangs are always going to struggle. But I just accept the extra work in pulling off supports to reduce the amount of fiddly sanding I'm doing. I've also noticed - and again, in ABS - that how long the print sits makes a big difference. If I pull the print after an hour or so (having waited for the chambre to cool to minimize warping) supports seem to come off fairly easily. If it's hours later because it finished whilst I was asleep or at work or whatever, the supports are much more solidly attached. I don't know if this was in play with your xenomorph, but it's another variable to consider.
ItsMeaDMaDe did a great video on supports and settings about a year ago. It's a long video but he goes through every setting, and had a test print. What's really good is he doesn't tell you what to make your settings, but shows you how to work out your own.
I run a small Print farm with 4 bambu's and use the AMS system alot- What's got me curious is that because I use different brands of filament, how can I "dial in" my support settings like this for multi colour prints... I suppose I could choose a specific colour that I have dialed in and choose that as the interface layer 🤔
I would like to know what setting is used to make the slicer actually obey the "Top Z distance". From my perspective, layer height is the only thing that OrcaSlicer obeys. Said another way, you had pretty much the same experience with all your prints in two groups: those that rounded to the exact layer height, and those that rounded to one layer away. Load up your parts, slice them, drag the layer preview down to where the support material ends and the next layer starts. See what happens for all your tests. Yep. For your tests, you either got attached to the layer above or one layer of skipping between layers. I'm guessing there is something that is going on with the extrusion rate on the top layer of support, but from the user interface perspective, your options are 0, 0.2, 0.4, or 0.6 if your layer height is 0.2. Set your layer height to 0.1, and now you can choose 0, 0.1, 0.2, or 0.3. Your choice of 0.28 at a layer height of 0.2 results in one layer being skipped between the top of the support and the next layer. Both OrcaSlicer and Bambu Studio exhibit this problem. PrusaSlicer does not have this issue. It will adjust the layer height to achieve the gap you set. If you want to get really geeky, look at the G-Codes. Example: G1 Z23.4 F24000. Set the height of the nozzle to 23.4 and the feed rate to 24000. Dig deep. If you want something supported at a height of 25.4, the code for the top of the support will be at a z height of 25.4 or 25.4-layer height. It rounds any number you put in the "Top Z distance" to an exact layer height. Weird, right?
Try playing with support interface later and it's density. At least that's what it's called in cura, not sure about other slicers. I turn my density down to 40% and that helps release too
I think this is a really cool thing to investigate, but honestly just enabling support inerface layers is a massive game changer on its own and should fix supports massively for most people even eithout tweaking any distances
Minor quibble, but would outsetting the numbers on top instead of insetting make it print faster? That way the fill pattern for the top level is uninterrupted and the actual numbers can be overlaid fairly quickly as there's not much material there.
Best method is PETG with PLA interface (or visaversa) . But in some cases (cantilever parts) you want to have bed anchor cylinders (1mm diameter) to hold the part down to the bed or it want to curl up as the petg lift off pla (I’ve only done petg with pla interface). Undersides are great.
how many people has idex/ams/dual extruder setups anyway? i really like that method, but it seems impossible/expensive for most of the users (excluding bambu guys, it seems like most of them has ams)
Glad it's not just me lol I wish some of these extra options were in Qidi slicer which seems comparatively basic. The other slicers don't seem to have Qidi P1 defaults
I generally print in PLA silk, but I've had the same issue of supports fused with a duel coloured (2-toned) silk filament on the same settings. The fused issue was on my cr-10 s5's but not on my P1p
Use the cutters that came with the printer 😅 Cut the supports in blocks that *can* move -> wiggle away from interface. Trying to get them off like a monolith is not working. Also: if the model looks impossible to print, cut it to simpler parts. I wonder how the bottoms look like with 0.3 mm distance 🤔
Could you not have all the different sizes on the build plate and change the individual object's settings to print them all at once rather than having to do like 5 separate plates worth?
I know its a bit of a luxury still, but I print in multi material, and print PLA supports for PetG and vice versa. I print BVOH for ASA and PA. It just works great! But It does not work on my single extruder printers ofcourse!
Hmmm... the test should also have print subjects that are 0.1mm and 0.2mm in thickness and widths...so fragile subjects/sculpts. With those I tend to break a lot of the prints with standard settings. But I will sure try this test as well and see what helps with my prints. Thank you!
Regardless of how easily the supports break away, I've always been disappointment in the surface quality. It never fails to require some sort of post processing to make the print look decent. I've seen videos where printers with multi-material setup (i.e. Bambu Lab AMS) will run PLA for the main print and supports, and utilize PETG as a support interface layer with a ZERO offset/layer gap... that seems to have some decent results.
I find Bambu matte SUPER sticky (it's pulled two beds off so far). The frustrating thing about this is that manufacturers change their formulations so you need to mess about with EVERY spool. This info should be provided by the manufacturers.
@@UncleJessy It prints INCREDIBLY, but best printed on the textured plate. Identical performance to Polyterra Matte. Highly recommended for multicolour printing and Hueforges.
I stopped using their matte PLA for the same reason. I had a permanent fused color "impression" for lack of a better word, on my textured build plate.... So any subsequent print would have those impressions transferred to the new print.
He also misses the setting "Top lnterface Spacing". "In Orca Slicer, top interface spacing refers to the distance between the topmost layer of your print and the support interface layer. This setting helps ensure that the support structures can be easily removed without damaging the print."
I use matte almost exclusively for anything that is heavily supported. Whatever they do to make it matte has something to do with it. Maybe it cools slightly faster? So The next layer doesn't fuse as well without the nozzle pressure pushing down? Idk
@@UncleJessy Seriously though, thanks for this video. I've been convinced I'm just an idiot because my supports almost ALWAYS require mechanical intervention to remove. Meanwhile, I watch RUclipsrs just flick theirs off with no effort. I was prying at some again last night.
It's wild how these values can impact your prints based on the filament you use! Checkout the quick and easy test print!
www.printables.com/model/1038477-support-removal-test-no-more-stuck-supports
makerworld.com/en/models/700778
Remember, this is IN RELATION TO YOUR LAYER HEIGHT! For a .2 layer height, everything here applies, but for a .1 or .3 layer heights it will be different. In this case just take the .X for the layer and set the Z distance accordingly. (Example: for a .1 layer height, set the Z distance to .12 or .14 or .16 and so on)
It will still round it to the nearest multiple of the layer height. So in your example, there is no difference between 0.12 and 0.14 with a layer height of 0.1. It will give a 0.1 gap for both. Try it out and see in the slicer. At least.. this is how it works with Prusa Slicer.
@@twinturbostang In Cura it's always rounded up to the nearest multiple, so 0.12 on 0.1 layer height becomes a 0.2 gap.
Unfortunately there is no conceivable way a 3D printer could make the info that's given in this vid work so it won't matter which slicer is chosen in the end.
@@YoubYoub-f8k So why do slicers let us put any number in there without telling us it's rounding up? Why not do the calculation so the moment you click out of the input it changes to what you're saying.
Why do it the way they do now and cause so much confusion?
@@trebory6 Well it's unfortunate I can't post pics in the comments.
Just open Cura up an hover your mouse over the name "Support Z Distance" or the input box.
A full description on it's functionality will appear.
Hope this helped.
@YoubYoub-f8k OrcaSlicer has an option 'Independent support layer height' that, as the name implies, allows it to command support printing at variable Z-intervals.
adjusting temperature can also affect it. you maybe printing the green filament "hot" compared to the black the additives in the filaments for color can affect how well they print at different temperature. this then affects adhesion
I just witnessed this - same filament for 2 prints. On the first I modified my extruder temp from 210C to 200C after the 10th layer, but forgot to do that with the second. The first model's tree supports came off cleanly, but the second section's supports required enough pressure to remove that I broke two of the parts that were stuck in the removal.
@@RocktCityTim ị reduced my temp by 5C and almost ruined one of my prints. The thing kept getting stuck and didn't melt in time
This is why you are the GOAT. Settings are not cut and dry or one-size-fits-all, seeing you break down settings, reasons, and showing comparisons it so much help for a novice like myself. some prints come perfect, others not. its easy to get frustrated, but nice to see others with failed prints too sometimes, even when dialed in. lol.
For PLA I always just use 2x the layer height (AKA, skip 1 layer), that seems to work every time for me. So when printing at .2 layer height, i do top distance .4, and when doing 0.08 layer height, i do top Z distance of 0.16.
glad you made this, because the other day I was trying to figure out why I hadn't changed my support settings but yet my supports were completly welded to the print
Had some prints today with difficult to remove supports - having an easy way to test them will help a lot! I also didn't realize that it varies with filament. Now that I know that, I'll definitely be testing new filaments before printing supports with them. Thanks for the video and the models!
Do you make your model files before printing?
@@ayodelemarvellous850 sometimes. In this case, designing it to avoid supports would be tricky and I had limited time to make the design. But I do usually try to design so I don't need supports.
Top Z will also affect the surface quality that are being supported When leaving a higher distance from the support to the supported structure you'll encounter much more stringing and droop so I feel like you should have brought this up as a factor to deciding how much distance is being used.
I have not experienced that at .26.
He briefly showed at 9:45, the 0.28, 0.3 actually looks better than 0.2, I assume it’s because the filament are not sticking to each other
you also change how that layer prints like rectilinear for example which can help your final quality.
This is amazing! I can't believe no one has ever done a video like this before. I've already watched it five times and told all my friends to watch it too. Nice work!!
I did...
@@PixelForgeLab oh cool! I'll check it out!
Do you model and print as well?
You watched it five times because you couldn't remember that you just need to adjust the one setting? In any case this is hardly new. There's been several videos about it.
@@michaelgleason4791 and this one is copied from mine
This model was one of the very first prints I ever did with an undialed in CR-10s and cura didnt have tree/organic supports yet. You just brought back support removal nightmares
The ELEGOO matta black is 100% my "go-to" filament for most things I make. It can handle high speed printing decently well too.
Agreed! Their rapid black PLA I now buy in bulk and use on my Bambu printers using the Bambu filament profiles
I have been buying Sunlu's Matte Black aPLA (Anti string PLA) for basically the exact same reason. and at 0.08LH the layers vanish.
OMG thank you... a few of my prints have been nightmares removing my supports, I'm testing this right now ! I was having problems on one that sat over night, one that I let cool a little and even one fresh off the plate!
Great comment !
Do you kinda make your files for printing?
These kinds of videos are the reason why I support this channel
🥺🤘
dude takes other people ideas and makes his "interpretation"
Ok best video ever, thx you just helped me solve a setting I have had set at zero. I hatted tree support and now it’s so easy to remove supports. That’s why you’re the MVP on my printing team. Thx
I just had an idea that would help all the tests. There could be a modification that allows you to write the reference of a parameter in the part. For example, instead of manually entering the Top Z Distance, you would place the variable in a specific location of the part, and as soon as you change the Top Z Distance value, the slicer would replace it in the final print.
That would be great. Thanks 👍
Is there any file you're looking to 3d print?
That Xenomorph was no joke! The supports were fn glued to it when I printed it!
Yeah only took 3 attempts to get the settings just right for easy removal. The first with the default is not coming off at all 😂
Great video. I found this a while ago after having an absolute nightmare with tree supports.
The other thing which is worth looking at is if you actually need "Top interface Layers" or not. 90% of my prints now I have set this to zero and it prevents support from creating that top raft and just sends tree supports all the way to where the support is needed.
This is a great info video. Cleaning supports I have done has been a challenge to almost impossible. I can't wait to try these settings on my next print. Again, thank you Uncle jesse for your time you use to do these tests to make it easier for us.
Fun trick: If you have a big flat overhang for some reason (like the test prints), you can pause the print at that layer and scribble over the grid supports with sharpie (laundry marker). PLA doesn't stick to that. You can use a zero-offset grid support and not have it stick at all. Obviously of limited use, but if you want (say) text embossed on both top and bottom of your print, it's pretty easy.
I think the Z distance is always a multiple of your chosen layer height. If you enter anything that isn't a multiple, the slicer will just default to the nearest multiple. That's why you're not seeing the variation you might have been expecting in your results.
So are you saying the slicers override the value that you input for the supports? I think the biggest factor I saw with this test was that even if I run the exact same .gcode file the difference in the filament I'm using can impact my support removal. In this case the Matte Black vs the Rapid Green PLA needing a higher Z Distance - Thanks for checking it out and the additional input!
I agree, in orca with a 0.8mm nozzle and 0.6mm layer heigth, I can't dial the support distance between layer lines even though I have the option "independant support layer height" turned on
Was going to say same thing you beat me to it, and probably said it better as well 😂
No its because the supports are too small to matter (and tree supports too). Also he didnt check the quality of the overhangs to actually see the difference.
This will work if you're not using a purge block and you have the "Independent Layer Height" setting for supports in OrcaSlicer is selected.
Elegoo rapid pla plus is now my go to for printing as it’s been the easiest fillet ive used when it comes to me removing supports.
Black was good but when I couldn’t get it I ordered white and it’s been even better they just pop right off
Great info and timely for me as I'm about to print something that needs center support, and a smaller version with the particular filament I'm using was an absolute bear to remove. What I wound up doing with that is hitting it with a heat gun a bit to soften things up a little, which let me get the support off clean. There's a balance between melting the print and softening that interface layer just enough, but if you start small and apply more heat as needed, it can really save a lot of headache and reprinting.
Just used 0.34 on a quite complex model , the supports came off sooooo easy , game changer !!
That was awesome. It was very fun to watch and learn about those parameters. If I'm in trouble with supports, I'll remember this.
Maybe you could do a video about stringing issues? Funfact: if I use Orcaslicer, my prints are string-a-paloosa.
Printing the same object sliced in Cura, everything is fine. I even copied the Cura settings over to Orca;
Orca just looooves to produce me hairy prints.
Modifying reatract, Z-hop, wipe etc. nothing worked. Now I'm using Orca just for splitting bigger objects,
exporting them and finally print them over Cura for the results I hoped to achieve with just Orcaslicer 😅
Please wear safety goggles when removing supports that are super stuck on. I can see them flicking up into the air there at 11:05
Matte PLA supports are much more easier to remove, compared to the regular PLA. I'm using Bambu printers and 98% of my prints are printed with 0.2mm layer height and the Z gap for supports is set to 0.1mm. This works absolutely amazing for me, removing the supports is a joy.
Also, recently I tried matte PLA for the support base layers in the regular PLA prints and it gives a result very close to the PETG supports.
I think a great addition to this would be to compare the same settings with the Tree supports vs the Standard supports and see if there is a big difference between those two styles as well.
Bambu P1S ships with a small amount of filament called "Support material for PLA" which is supposed to act as a top layer for your supports that makes them east to peel off. Not tried it yet, but apparently it works. Others have said that using PETG on a PLA print in the same way also works as they are somewhat incompatible which makes them easy to peel off.
i printed exact the same xenomorph in the past. i oriented it, that the tail was pointing upside. it turned out great and die supports were (relative) easy to remove.
Make filament extrusion width smaller than nozzle width or flow ratio lower on supports specifically, whatever your slicer allows, you get deliberately underextruded supports that sort of just flake off.
In Prusa Slicer (v 2.8.1), it seems the top z distance is rounded to a multiple of the layer height. So 0.28, for example, is going to round up to 0.3 if your layer height is 0.1, but will round down to 0.2 if your layer height is 0.2.
I am under the same belief that top Z distance was only in increments of your layer height.... if .2 layer = 0.0, 0.2, .04 top Z height. you can set the Top Z height to any thing in-between but rounds to the layer height and does not make a difference. I use Cura 5.7 (since Cura 3.x) Can anyone confirm otherwise for Prusa Slicer / Cura / Other?
@@levih.4252 I'm using Prusa and looking at the layers preview, it seems to consider 0.x increments. Running some tests, will see the results later
If you think about it, this is a layer adhesion problem, just in reverse. While with the print itself, you want good layer adhesion, but between the support and the print you want weak layer adhesion, the closest to failure without actually failing, the better.
So you basically have to consider the same factors.
This also implies that printers being able to use different materials from the print for support will have an advantage for cleaner separation.
My fav on social media is a lot of people just say change the threshold angle. which from reading the info that pops when you hover on the box made no sense, but I didn't know til a few days ago myself its the z distance that is the major factor. this video should help a lot of people get proper information.
im glad to see im not the only one having the od issue with xenomorph supports ;)
try blasting the print a bit with a heat gun to loosen the supports
I've learned from experience that the trick to removing supports is to not just pull hard but to work it back and forth. After a few cycles it starts to crack and you can hear that. Just keep working it and eventually it just falls off.
Uncle Jessy you are always a big help. Thank you my brother
I noticed something just yesterday....
I was printing a rather large flat to the plate surface that had multiple tree supports underneath. They were hard to remove of course but I noticed something....
On the surface above each support connection the was a matching melted indention.
These round supports are funneling HOT air up and assisting in fusing these supports to the main piece!
And yes, the more malleable the filament the more easily it fused!
So could you run smaller or less supports so that the heat isn't constantly being transferred up to the supported part?
Looking at your green Alien print, and the number of supports, I'm guessing the fusing is coming down from the heated filament ABOVE the supports.
What do you think sir?
Hey Jess, Just wanted to let you know that there is a new filament manufacture in Buffalo Called Factory Filament if your not familar with them, The have this Filament Called DuraPet, its a type of Pet that is strong, sticks really well to the bed, doesn't need a heated chamber, and no fans. I'm gonna be getting some black and white this week when they get restocked. Thought you might want to try it out since they are somewhat a local company. They are literly half a mile from my house!
If you put all the small ones on the plate and modify the support settings per-object, you can export that file and the settings will work for any printer that imports it into Orca.
Well thats interesting. I never took a look at this setting and i always wondered why i had sometimes trouble with support removing. This was very helpful since I do a Neptune 4 and High Speed PLA from eSUN
PSA: it is highly advisable to wear safety glasses when removing supports. I learned this lesson the hard way.
@@jtms1200 ouch!! Agreed
Great information as always Jessy I’ve been using .28 for sometime now never fails, out of interest when is Elegoo new machine being released
I'm surprised that you're surprised that matte filament supports come off easily. If there's one weakness of matte filament, it's layer adhesion.
Another thing you could tweak/optimize, is the overhang angle. Quite easy to create a test block with different overhang angels (going from 45° to 60° e.g. with 1° or 2.5° increments)
Making a vid about supports for miniatures now with 1 hour duration. For minis there's a significant sag with overhangs/supported regions in my current best profile, but indeed making overhangs printable is a good thing to keep in mind with some exceptions.
Oh would love to see how that goes. I pretty much only print minis on resin printers but for sure lots of folks out there doing them on fdm
@@UncleJessy You can check out existing vid and short with showcase if you have some time. Those are kinda teasers for the process I've been working on for years and have refined very well lately. I can't afford to have a resin printer in home, and fumes are a concern for me and wife with our space and ventilation. Waiting for a tinymaker tho.
Hey, I finally did it, please check it out and tell me what you think.
Thanks this is exactly what I was looking for
You also need to make sure that you have the "Independent Support Layer Height" option is turned on if you're using OrcaSlicer, and this will not work the same when using a purge block. If you're using a purge block you will only be able to choose a gap that is a multiple of the layer height. If using a purge block and you put in a Top Z distance that is not a multiple of the layer height the slicer will automatically choose a gap that is a multiple of the layer height setting.
Hi! uncle jessy, loving your videos. Certainly you have helped me a lot with my development as a printer-person hobbiest? haha not sure how to say it. Also I was wondering which program did you use to make that model? hopefully you can see my comment
Shapr3d on iPad… subscription based and a tad bit expensive but has a free trial
Every new printer I build or whenever I change to a new toolhead support distance tuning is one of things that are pretty much necessary.
Definitely doing this for ASA on my Printers. Thanks.
You should do a test for PETG supports on PLA prints.
An interesting thing I've found with filament is that black is ALWAYS different. Matte and Deep Black PLAs are the only "normal" PLAs that I have different settings for on my Ender 3, and the only filaments I have ran flow calibration for on my Bambu P1S. Some of my most common issues are actually visible at 5:21 on your top layers where you have small gaps and a pillowing effect.
I have a feeling that because the colour black absorbs heat more than others, there is something different happening to the adhesion between layers compared to a lighter colour. Layers and walls are generally still very strong, but it always needs 1-2% higher extrusion than other colours. Maybe it's contracting more than other colours between layers and that's why the supports in this instance are coming away so easily
I find that if I go much above 0.1 distance, my overhands look horrible. For context, I mostly print in ABS so overhangs are always going to struggle. But I just accept the extra work in pulling off supports to reduce the amount of fiddly sanding I'm doing.
I've also noticed - and again, in ABS - that how long the print sits makes a big difference. If I pull the print after an hour or so (having waited for the chambre to cool to minimize warping) supports seem to come off fairly easily. If it's hours later because it finished whilst I was asleep or at work or whatever, the supports are much more solidly attached. I don't know if this was in play with your xenomorph, but it's another variable to consider.
ItsMeaDMaDe did a great video on supports and settings about a year ago. It's a long video but he goes through every setting, and had a test print. What's really good is he doesn't tell you what to make your settings, but shows you how to work out your own.
Thanks man I'm going to check this out
I tend to use 0.32mm top Z distance when printing @ 0.08mm layer height. Works very well for me :D
I run a small Print farm with 4 bambu's and use the AMS system alot- What's got me curious is that because I use different brands of filament, how can I "dial in" my support settings like this for multi colour prints...
I suppose I could choose a specific colour that I have dialed in and choose that as the interface layer 🤔
I would like to know what setting is used to make the slicer actually obey the "Top Z distance". From my perspective, layer height is the only thing that OrcaSlicer obeys. Said another way, you had pretty much the same experience with all your prints in two groups: those that rounded to the exact layer height, and those that rounded to one layer away. Load up your parts, slice them, drag the layer preview down to where the support material ends and the next layer starts. See what happens for all your tests. Yep. For your tests, you either got attached to the layer above or one layer of skipping between layers. I'm guessing there is something that is going on with the extrusion rate on the top layer of support, but from the user interface perspective, your options are 0, 0.2, 0.4, or 0.6 if your layer height is 0.2. Set your layer height to 0.1, and now you can choose 0, 0.1, 0.2, or 0.3. Your choice of 0.28 at a layer height of 0.2 results in one layer being skipped between the top of the support and the next layer. Both OrcaSlicer and Bambu Studio exhibit this problem. PrusaSlicer does not have this issue. It will adjust the layer height to achieve the gap you set. If you want to get really geeky, look at the G-Codes. Example: G1 Z23.4 F24000. Set the height of the nozzle to 23.4 and the feed rate to 24000. Dig deep. If you want something supported at a height of 25.4, the code for the top of the support will be at a z height of 25.4 or 25.4-layer height. It rounds any number you put in the "Top Z distance" to an exact layer height. Weird, right?
Try playing with support interface later and it's density. At least that's what it's called in cura, not sure about other slicers. I turn my density down to 40% and that helps release too
I think this is a really cool thing to investigate, but honestly just enabling support inerface layers is a massive game changer on its own and should fix supports massively for most people even eithout tweaking any distances
Minor quibble, but would outsetting the numbers on top instead of insetting make it print faster? That way the fill pattern for the top level is uninterrupted and the actual numbers can be overlaid fairly quickly as there's not much material there.
potentially but I dont think it would save very much time as the inset values is super shallow
This is what Support for Interfaces is for.... makes the supports pop off in one piece most the time without affecting surface finish.
Best method is PETG with PLA interface (or visaversa) . But in some cases (cantilever parts) you want to have bed anchor cylinders (1mm diameter) to hold the part down to the bed or it want to curl up as the petg lift off pla (I’ve only done petg with pla interface).
Undersides are great.
1000% agreed. I showed that in a video recently on my XL… so dang awesome
how many people has idex/ams/dual extruder setups anyway? i really like that method, but it seems impossible/expensive for most of the users (excluding bambu guys, it seems like most of them has ams)
Glad it's not just me lol I wish some of these extra options were in Qidi slicer which seems comparatively basic. The other slicers don't seem to have Qidi P1 defaults
nice video! what is this app you use for modeling?
oh Shaper 3D, I didn't notice at first since I was watching on mute 😆
Shapr3d on the ipad
I generally print in PLA silk, but I've had the same issue of supports fused with a duel coloured (2-toned) silk filament on the same settings. The fused issue was on my cr-10 s5's but not on my P1p
Ever tried Bambu lab?
Use the cutters that came with the printer 😅
Cut the supports in blocks that *can* move -> wiggle away from interface. Trying to get them off like a monolith is not working.
Also: if the model looks impossible to print, cut it to simpler parts. I wonder how the bottoms look like with 0.3 mm distance 🤔
I really feel the slicer should have a built-in calibration for support interface layer height since printed supports are so necessary.
Thank you for your work
That black spool on the printer is going to tangle 🤣
Question: does matching layer height to the top layer distance make a difference?
Usually you will want to go slightly higher for the Top Z distance in my experience but now you can quickly test it out and see ;)
Could you not have all the different sizes on the build plate and change the individual object's settings to print them all at once rather than having to do like 5 separate plates worth?
I know its a bit of a luxury still, but I print in multi material, and print PLA supports for PetG and vice versa. I print BVOH for ASA and PA. It just works great! But It does not work on my single extruder printers ofcourse!
What software did you use on your iPad to model?
Shapr3d
Hmmm... the test should also have print subjects that are 0.1mm and 0.2mm in thickness and widths...so fragile subjects/sculpts. With those I tend to break a lot of the prints with standard settings. But I will sure try this test as well and see what helps with my prints. Thank you!
You could save some time and print multiple on one build plate and just change settings per object in the slicer.
Great video! thnx for the great work!
Good video well-explained thank you.
so layer adhesion is better with the rapid PLA? Interesting!
Which programming software were you using?
Regardless of how easily the supports break away, I've always been disappointment in the surface quality. It never fails to require some sort of post processing to make the print look decent. I've seen videos where printers with multi-material setup (i.e. Bambu Lab AMS) will run PLA for the main print and supports, and utilize PETG as a support interface layer with a ZERO offset/layer gap... that seems to have some decent results.
I find Bambu matte SUPER sticky (it's pulled two beds off so far).
The frustrating thing about this is that manufacturers change their formulations so you need to mess about with EVERY spool. This info should be provided by the manufacturers.
Oh dang! I was debating on ordering some of their matte PLA
@@UncleJessy It prints INCREDIBLY, but best printed on the textured plate. Identical performance to Polyterra Matte. Highly recommended for multicolour printing and Hueforges.
I stopped using their matte PLA for the same reason. I had a permanent fused color "impression" for lack of a better word, on my textured build plate.... So any subsequent print would have those impressions transferred to the new print.
@@joejvitale Yeah, crazy sticky. Razor blades out every print. Perhaps we should have used glue sticks to coat the bed?
I use tiny cones with the tip on the part, and it breaks off clean. multi filament can use a barrier layers of PLA.
Uncle Jessie, the uncle i didn't know i needed 😅
Infimech TX supports just melt off using orca that came with the USB. Very easy to take off. Best printer out of my 4 printers. Abs is a breeze also.
Thank you, this video is very valuable.
Leaving the print overnight w/o removing will also result in harder to remove supports, best to remove them ASAP.
I changed my support object x/y distance to 0.35 and had alot of success.
Currently running a print on .5 setting. 13 hours left, let you know how it turns out ;-)
He also misses the setting "Top lnterface Spacing".
"In Orca Slicer, top interface spacing refers to the distance between the topmost layer of your print and the support interface layer. This setting helps ensure that the support structures can be easily removed without damaging the print."
Very funny, had the very same issue wit the very same xenomorph (printed in parts, even). Let me see if you have a way.
Most important just use pliers and brake them off right at the contact point by twisting not pulling.
I use matte almost exclusively for anything that is heavily supported. Whatever they do to make it matte has something to do with it. Maybe it cools slightly faster? So The next layer doesn't fuse as well without the nozzle pressure pushing down? Idk
I found the biggest improvement in tree supports came from increasing the xy distance to 1mm. On bambu p1p 😅
That green is electric.
(Boogie woogie woogie)
It’s so dang bright that my camera was having issues recording it 😂
@@UncleJessy Seriously though, thanks for this video. I've been convinced I'm just an idiot because my supports almost ALWAYS require mechanical intervention to remove. Meanwhile, I watch RUclipsrs just flick theirs off with no effort. I was prying at some again last night.
Great Video!
Thanks!
Thanks Bro😁
I've noticed that different settings work on different printers because of their dimensional accuracy or lack thereof
For me 0.35 has worked great across PLA PETG and ABS on top and bottom z and x/y settings