It's wild how these values can impact your prints based on the filament you use! Checkout the quick and easy test print! www.printables.com/model/1038477-support-removal-test-no-more-stuck-supports makerworld.com/en/models/700778
Remember, this is IN RELATION TO YOUR LAYER HEIGHT! For a .2 layer height, everything here applies, but for a .1 or .3 layer heights it will be different. In this case just take the .X for the layer and set the Z distance accordingly. (Example: for a .1 layer height, set the Z distance to .12 or .14 or .16 and so on)
It will still round it to the nearest multiple of the layer height. So in your example, there is no difference between 0.12 and 0.14 with a layer height of 0.1. It will give a 0.1 gap for both. Try it out and see in the slicer. At least.. this is how it works with Prusa Slicer.
@@twinturbostang In Cura it's always rounded up to the nearest multiple, so 0.12 on 0.1 layer height becomes a 0.2 gap. Unfortunately there is no conceivable way a 3D printer could make the info that's given in this vid work so it won't matter which slicer is chosen in the end.
@@YoubYoub-f8k So why do slicers let us put any number in there without telling us it's rounding up? Why not do the calculation so the moment you click out of the input it changes to what you're saying. Why do it the way they do now and cause so much confusion?
@@trebory6 Well it's unfortunate I can't post pics in the comments. Just open Cura up an hover your mouse over the name "Support Z Distance" or the input box. A full description on it's functionality will appear. Hope this helped.
@YoubYoub-f8k OrcaSlicer has an option 'Independent support layer height' that, as the name implies, allows it to command support printing at variable Z-intervals.
adjusting temperature can also affect it. you maybe printing the green filament "hot" compared to the black the additives in the filaments for color can affect how well they print at different temperature. this then affects adhesion
I just witnessed this - same filament for 2 prints. On the first I modified my extruder temp from 210C to 200C after the 10th layer, but forgot to do that with the second. The first model's tree supports came off cleanly, but the second section's supports required enough pressure to remove that I broke two of the parts that were stuck in the removal.
For PLA I always just use 2x the layer height (AKA, skip 1 layer), that seems to work every time for me. So when printing at .2 layer height, i do top distance .4, and when doing 0.08 layer height, i do top Z distance of 0.16.
This is why you are the GOAT. Settings are not cut and dry or one-size-fits-all, seeing you break down settings, reasons, and showing comparisons it so much help for a novice like myself. some prints come perfect, others not. its easy to get frustrated, but nice to see others with failed prints too sometimes, even when dialed in. lol.
glad you made this, because the other day I was trying to figure out why I hadn't changed my support settings but yet my supports were completly welded to the print
Top Z will also affect the surface quality that are being supported When leaving a higher distance from the support to the supported structure you'll encounter much more stringing and droop so I feel like you should have brought this up as a factor to deciding how much distance is being used.
This model was one of the very first prints I ever did with an undialed in CR-10s and cura didnt have tree/organic supports yet. You just brought back support removal nightmares
Fun trick: If you have a big flat overhang for some reason (like the test prints), you can pause the print at that layer and scribble over the grid supports with sharpie (laundry marker). PLA doesn't stick to that. You can use a zero-offset grid support and not have it stick at all. Obviously of limited use, but if you want (say) text embossed on both top and bottom of your print, it's pretty easy.
This is amazing! I can't believe no one has ever done a video like this before. I've already watched it five times and told all my friends to watch it too. Nice work!!
You watched it five times because you couldn't remember that you just need to adjust the one setting? In any case this is hardly new. There's been several videos about it.
Had some prints today with difficult to remove supports - having an easy way to test them will help a lot! I also didn't realize that it varies with filament. Now that I know that, I'll definitely be testing new filaments before printing supports with them. Thanks for the video and the models!
@@ayodelemarvellous850 sometimes. In this case, designing it to avoid supports would be tricky and I had limited time to make the design. But I do usually try to design so I don't need supports.
I love love love that you added the black filament and rolled with how it didnt do as you expected then moved on to green. I dont know if you were planning everything to happen the way it did or if you did the green because of what the black did, but a lot of us make the same mistakes so showing it in the video instead of editing it out makes us feel less crazy. It also keep people from falling into the same hole and not getting the results a youtube video shows. much appreciated!
Key is to remember also.. "rapid"/"fast"/"High flow" filaments are lower melt temps, so your supports are sticking more on those because even just the ambient heat of the print head can make the top layers of the supports sticky again vs normal PLA or PLA+ blends. Resulting in needing a higher gap to prevent filament drooping and sticking so easily.
Just want to say complete beginner and I'm having this problem, couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. Going to try this tomorrow. Thanks for your video.
Elegoo rapid pla plus is now my go to for printing as it’s been the easiest fillet ive used when it comes to me removing supports. Black was good but when I couldn’t get it I ordered white and it’s been even better they just pop right off
Ok best video ever, thx you just helped me solve a setting I have had set at zero. I hatted tree support and now it’s so easy to remove supports. That’s why you’re the MVP on my printing team. Thx
OMG thank you... a few of my prints have been nightmares removing my supports, I'm testing this right now ! I was having problems on one that sat over night, one that I let cool a little and even one fresh off the plate!
This is a great info video. Cleaning supports I have done has been a challenge to almost impossible. I can't wait to try these settings on my next print. Again, thank you Uncle jesse for your time you use to do these tests to make it easier for us.
Great video. I found this a while ago after having an absolute nightmare with tree supports. The other thing which is worth looking at is if you actually need "Top interface Layers" or not. 90% of my prints now I have set this to zero and it prevents support from creating that top raft and just sends tree supports all the way to where the support is needed.
Great info and timely for me as I'm about to print something that needs center support, and a smaller version with the particular filament I'm using was an absolute bear to remove. What I wound up doing with that is hitting it with a heat gun a bit to soften things up a little, which let me get the support off clean. There's a balance between melting the print and softening that interface layer just enough, but if you start small and apply more heat as needed, it can really save a lot of headache and reprinting.
Thanks for the test models. I found the different settings made very little difference to the release of support material (Normal) from the print. All the large sample released pretty easy and all the small ones were difficult to release a couple of the sections. It almost seemed like I'd not even changed the settings per object but I checked and I did. More confused by the difference between the large and to small test samples. I did change both top and bottom Z value, so not sure if that makes a difference. I'm gonna retry with tree support and see how that works out.
I think the Z distance is always a multiple of your chosen layer height. If you enter anything that isn't a multiple, the slicer will just default to the nearest multiple. That's why you're not seeing the variation you might have been expecting in your results.
So are you saying the slicers override the value that you input for the supports? I think the biggest factor I saw with this test was that even if I run the exact same .gcode file the difference in the filament I'm using can impact my support removal. In this case the Matte Black vs the Rapid Green PLA needing a higher Z Distance - Thanks for checking it out and the additional input!
I agree, in orca with a 0.8mm nozzle and 0.6mm layer heigth, I can't dial the support distance between layer lines even though I have the option "independant support layer height" turned on
No its because the supports are too small to matter (and tree supports too). Also he didnt check the quality of the overhangs to actually see the difference.
I generally print in PLA silk, but I've had the same issue of supports fused with a duel coloured (2-toned) silk filament on the same settings. The fused issue was on my cr-10 s5's but not on my P1p
I just had an idea that would help all the tests. There could be a modification that allows you to write the reference of a parameter in the part. For example, instead of manually entering the Top Z Distance, you would place the variable in a specific location of the part, and as soon as you change the Top Z Distance value, the slicer would replace it in the final print.
Minor quibble, but would outsetting the numbers on top instead of insetting make it print faster? That way the fill pattern for the top level is uninterrupted and the actual numbers can be overlaid fairly quickly as there's not much material there.
In Prusa Slicer (v 2.8.1), it seems the top z distance is rounded to a multiple of the layer height. So 0.28, for example, is going to round up to 0.3 if your layer height is 0.1, but will round down to 0.2 if your layer height is 0.2.
I am under the same belief that top Z distance was only in increments of your layer height.... if .2 layer = 0.0, 0.2, .04 top Z height. you can set the Top Z height to any thing in-between but rounds to the layer height and does not make a difference. I use Cura 5.7 (since Cura 3.x) Can anyone confirm otherwise for Prusa Slicer / Cura / Other?
i printed exact the same xenomorph in the past. i oriented it, that the tail was pointing upside. it turned out great and die supports were (relative) easy to remove.
I noticed something just yesterday.... I was printing a rather large flat to the plate surface that had multiple tree supports underneath. They were hard to remove of course but I noticed something.... On the surface above each support connection the was a matching melted indention. These round supports are funneling HOT air up and assisting in fusing these supports to the main piece! And yes, the more malleable the filament the more easily it fused! So could you run smaller or less supports so that the heat isn't constantly being transferred up to the supported part? Looking at your green Alien print, and the number of supports, I'm guessing the fusing is coming down from the heated filament ABOVE the supports. What do you think sir?
Hmmm. I've been using 0.26 with variable layer height, assuming the minimum possible to remove is best. But maybe Z contact distance of 0.3 would cause less damage on removal. Thanks for trying this out.
Something that helps in orcaslicer, especially with ABS is the filament cooling setting. Having your printer turn on the fan to a certain percent, maybe like 25 for abs during overhangs and while printing supports works wonders.
I find that if I go much above 0.1 distance, my overhands look horrible. For context, I mostly print in ABS so overhangs are always going to struggle. But I just accept the extra work in pulling off supports to reduce the amount of fiddly sanding I'm doing. I've also noticed - and again, in ABS - that how long the print sits makes a big difference. If I pull the print after an hour or so (having waited for the chambre to cool to minimize warping) supports seem to come off fairly easily. If it's hours later because it finished whilst I was asleep or at work or whatever, the supports are much more solidly attached. I don't know if this was in play with your xenomorph, but it's another variable to consider.
I see that you have all of these printers in what looks like a regular room. Do they not produce the toxic fumes? or is the room well ventilated and I just didn't notice? I am new to this and I don't know
Could you not have all the different sizes on the build plate and change the individual object's settings to print them all at once rather than having to do like 5 separate plates worth?
So for pla, I used 200/60 with .185 top and bottom z contact. For abs, I do 227/110 with .19 top and bottom z. This is through with .2 layer height and using prusaslicer for my voron v0, so I highly recommend giving those values a shot, even if the settings in this video do help you start getting dialed in.
I run a small Print farm with 4 bambu's and use the AMS system alot- What's got me curious is that because I use different brands of filament, how can I "dial in" my support settings like this for multi colour prints... I suppose I could choose a specific colour that I have dialed in and choose that as the interface layer 🤔
Bambu P1S ships with a small amount of filament called "Support material for PLA" which is supposed to act as a top layer for your supports that makes them east to peel off. Not tried it yet, but apparently it works. Others have said that using PETG on a PLA print in the same way also works as they are somewhat incompatible which makes them easy to peel off.
An interesting thing I've found with filament is that black is ALWAYS different. Matte and Deep Black PLAs are the only "normal" PLAs that I have different settings for on my Ender 3, and the only filaments I have ran flow calibration for on my Bambu P1S. Some of my most common issues are actually visible at 5:21 on your top layers where you have small gaps and a pillowing effect. I have a feeling that because the colour black absorbs heat more than others, there is something different happening to the adhesion between layers compared to a lighter colour. Layers and walls are generally still very strong, but it always needs 1-2% higher extrusion than other colours. Maybe it's contracting more than other colours between layers and that's why the supports in this instance are coming away so easily
Hello, I have a question. I print at a layer height of 0.2. Should I do the tests with the same data you put in? 0.2, 0.24, 0.26, 0.28, 0.3? thanks for the help I have an Ender 3 V3 KE
That was awesome. It was very fun to watch and learn about those parameters. If I'm in trouble with supports, I'll remember this. Maybe you could do a video about stringing issues? Funfact: if I use Orcaslicer, my prints are string-a-paloosa. Printing the same object sliced in Cura, everything is fine. I even copied the Cura settings over to Orca; Orca just looooves to produce me hairy prints. Modifying reatract, Z-hop, wipe etc. nothing worked. Now I'm using Orca just for splitting bigger objects, exporting them and finally print them over Cura for the results I hoped to achieve with just Orcaslicer 😅
I would like to know what setting is used to make the slicer actually obey the "Top Z distance". From my perspective, layer height is the only thing that OrcaSlicer obeys. Said another way, you had pretty much the same experience with all your prints in two groups: those that rounded to the exact layer height, and those that rounded to one layer away. Load up your parts, slice them, drag the layer preview down to where the support material ends and the next layer starts. See what happens for all your tests. Yep. For your tests, you either got attached to the layer above or one layer of skipping between layers. I'm guessing there is something that is going on with the extrusion rate on the top layer of support, but from the user interface perspective, your options are 0, 0.2, 0.4, or 0.6 if your layer height is 0.2. Set your layer height to 0.1, and now you can choose 0, 0.1, 0.2, or 0.3. Your choice of 0.28 at a layer height of 0.2 results in one layer being skipped between the top of the support and the next layer. Both OrcaSlicer and Bambu Studio exhibit this problem. PrusaSlicer does not have this issue. It will adjust the layer height to achieve the gap you set. If you want to get really geeky, look at the G-Codes. Example: G1 Z23.4 F24000. Set the height of the nozzle to 23.4 and the feed rate to 24000. Dig deep. If you want something supported at a height of 25.4, the code for the top of the support will be at a z height of 25.4 or 25.4-layer height. It rounds any number you put in the "Top Z distance" to an exact layer height. Weird, right?
Making a vid about supports for miniatures now with 1 hour duration. For minis there's a significant sag with overhangs/supported regions in my current best profile, but indeed making overhangs printable is a good thing to keep in mind with some exceptions.
@@UncleJessy You can check out existing vid and short with showcase if you have some time. Those are kinda teasers for the process I've been working on for years and have refined very well lately. I can't afford to have a resin printer in home, and fumes are a concern for me and wife with our space and ventilation. Waiting for a tinymaker tho.
My fav on social media is a lot of people just say change the threshold angle. which from reading the info that pops when you hover on the box made no sense, but I didn't know til a few days ago myself its the z distance that is the major factor. this video should help a lot of people get proper information.
If you put all the small ones on the plate and modify the support settings per-object, you can export that file and the settings will work for any printer that imports it into Orca.
Another thing you could tweak/optimize, is the overhang angle. Quite easy to create a test block with different overhang angels (going from 45° to 60° e.g. with 1° or 2.5° increments)
I use matte almost exclusively for anything that is heavily supported. Whatever they do to make it matte has something to do with it. Maybe it cools slightly faster? So The next layer doesn't fuse as well without the nozzle pressure pushing down? Idk
I had the same thing with supports on black filament being easy to remove, but the orange i bought for Halloween stuff being welded on there. So badly so that i had to scrap finished prints because the supports were so hard to remove they ruined the model trying to get them off.
Well thats interesting. I never took a look at this setting and i always wondered why i had sometimes trouble with support removing. This was very helpful since I do a Neptune 4 and High Speed PLA from eSUN
What is the impact of the upper ceiling? You looked at one boundary, but there doesn't seem to be any info on the consequences of ramping that up much higher. Obviously there's a point where it's not actually giving any support at all cause there's a great big air gap, but it sounds like you should test where that point starts. Maybe it's around the .30-.40 range and you can't go much higher, but maybe it's actually at the 0.6 range and you can happily throw 0.40 at the wall and just have easier supports as a default. Be nice to see the other side of that quality curve.
Matte PLA supports are much more easier to remove, compared to the regular PLA. I'm using Bambu printers and 98% of my prints are printed with 0.2mm layer height and the Z gap for supports is set to 0.1mm. This works absolutely amazing for me, removing the supports is a joy. Also, recently I tried matte PLA for the support base layers in the regular PLA prints and it gives a result very close to the PETG supports.
I think a great addition to this would be to compare the same settings with the Tree supports vs the Standard supports and see if there is a big difference between those two styles as well.
Make filament extrusion width smaller than nozzle width or flow ratio lower on supports specifically, whatever your slicer allows, you get deliberately underextruded supports that sort of just flake off.
What I would like to know is for a multi filament, what could be used for supports like a weaker but sturdy support filament, IE TPA hard for PLA and PLA for ABS for example. Has anyone done this for FDM Printers? If so where and if not can you do something for that option?
Trying to get my head around how it would be printing in 0.2mm layers but somehow print the supports at a height between those layers? I've seen resolution be lower on support but it's usually a multiple of the layer height and not a 0.02 difference.
Please do a video on supports using different types of filament on a print using a different filament. I tried using PETG as a interface layer with no success. The print keeps clogging or the interface isn't able to even produce a layer for me. Would love to see how you tackle this problem.
I downloaded an stl file for a Hawker Hurricane fighter plane. It looked so corrupted in the slicer but I decided to print it anyway just to see this weird version. It printed perfectly just like in the slicer but the supports that I put to it was hellish to remove. In the end I gave up and just left ghastly Hurricane partially "entombed," so to speak, in support.
Try playing with support interface later and it's density. At least that's what it's called in cura, not sure about other slicers. I turn my density down to 40% and that helps release too
Best method is PETG with PLA interface (or visaversa) . But in some cases (cantilever parts) you want to have bed anchor cylinders (1mm diameter) to hold the part down to the bed or it want to curl up as the petg lift off pla (I’ve only done petg with pla interface). Undersides are great.
how many people has idex/ams/dual extruder setups anyway? i really like that method, but it seems impossible/expensive for most of the users (excluding bambu guys, it seems like most of them has ams)
Isn't this based on the print temp of the Filament somewhat? HF filaments are often printable at lower temps. I'd be interested in a follow-up where you print the green at 5C increments and the same spacing and see how the difficulty varies.
Temperature, temperature, temperature. I just went through this on a multi-section model print. The supports on the section where I dropped the extruder to 200C (from 210C) from the 10th layer up came off easily (0.28 top gap) while the second plate remained at 210C for the entire print resulted in fused supports and broken parts when I removed them.
Hmm... I always thought that the z distance had to be a multiple of the layer height. Like for 0.2mm setting, z distance could be 0 (no layer between) 0.2 (1 layer) or 0.4 (2 layers). Is it not just rounding the 0.34 setting to 0.4 for a 2 layer gap? How does the slicer do the interim steps? Is the layer height for the top support layer printed thinner than the normal layer height? Previews in Orca suggest otherwise. All the same layer height...
Was temperature ever mentioned in here? My black filament prints 15 degrees colder than coloured ones, if this is the case for you this may also help the black ones to fall more easely
Hey Jess, Just wanted to let you know that there is a new filament manufacture in Buffalo Called Factory Filament if your not familar with them, The have this Filament Called DuraPet, its a type of Pet that is strong, sticks really well to the bed, doesn't need a heated chamber, and no fans. I'm gonna be getting some black and white this week when they get restocked. Thought you might want to try it out since they are somewhat a local company. They are literly half a mile from my house!
i hope this dosent seem stupid but does it make a difference if i use elegoo filament on a anycubic macine and vice-versa i have an anycubic and my supports are always welded like that but there aren't many videos to help me with anycubic that Ive found
No, printers are agnostic to the brand of filament you use. Just each brand has their own special blend of each type and can have different results compared to another brand. Id suggest finding a brand that works for you consistently and generally stick with them, but dont be afraid to try other brands.
Not a dumb question at all. You can pretty much use any filament on any machine as long as it can print at that required filament temperature. Pretty much any brands PLA, Petg should run on any 3d printer. You can mix and match all day
Forgive me if I am wrong but doesn't the organic version of tree supports just use your normal layer height for the z distance no matter what you put in?
Glad it's not just me lol I wish some of these extra options were in Qidi slicer which seems comparatively basic. The other slicers don't seem to have Qidi P1 defaults
I know its a bit of a luxury still, but I print in multi material, and print PLA supports for PetG and vice versa. I print BVOH for ASA and PA. It just works great! But It does not work on my single extruder printers ofcourse!
You also need to make sure that you have the "Independent Support Layer Height" option is turned on if you're using OrcaSlicer, and this will not work the same when using a purge block. If you're using a purge block you will only be able to choose a gap that is a multiple of the layer height. If using a purge block and you put in a Top Z distance that is not a multiple of the layer height the slicer will automatically choose a gap that is a multiple of the layer height setting.
It's wild how these values can impact your prints based on the filament you use! Checkout the quick and easy test print!
www.printables.com/model/1038477-support-removal-test-no-more-stuck-supports
makerworld.com/en/models/700778
Remember, this is IN RELATION TO YOUR LAYER HEIGHT! For a .2 layer height, everything here applies, but for a .1 or .3 layer heights it will be different. In this case just take the .X for the layer and set the Z distance accordingly. (Example: for a .1 layer height, set the Z distance to .12 or .14 or .16 and so on)
It will still round it to the nearest multiple of the layer height. So in your example, there is no difference between 0.12 and 0.14 with a layer height of 0.1. It will give a 0.1 gap for both. Try it out and see in the slicer. At least.. this is how it works with Prusa Slicer.
@@twinturbostang In Cura it's always rounded up to the nearest multiple, so 0.12 on 0.1 layer height becomes a 0.2 gap.
Unfortunately there is no conceivable way a 3D printer could make the info that's given in this vid work so it won't matter which slicer is chosen in the end.
@@YoubYoub-f8k So why do slicers let us put any number in there without telling us it's rounding up? Why not do the calculation so the moment you click out of the input it changes to what you're saying.
Why do it the way they do now and cause so much confusion?
@@trebory6 Well it's unfortunate I can't post pics in the comments.
Just open Cura up an hover your mouse over the name "Support Z Distance" or the input box.
A full description on it's functionality will appear.
Hope this helped.
@YoubYoub-f8k OrcaSlicer has an option 'Independent support layer height' that, as the name implies, allows it to command support printing at variable Z-intervals.
adjusting temperature can also affect it. you maybe printing the green filament "hot" compared to the black the additives in the filaments for color can affect how well they print at different temperature. this then affects adhesion
I just witnessed this - same filament for 2 prints. On the first I modified my extruder temp from 210C to 200C after the 10th layer, but forgot to do that with the second. The first model's tree supports came off cleanly, but the second section's supports required enough pressure to remove that I broke two of the parts that were stuck in the removal.
@@RocktCityTim ị reduced my temp by 5C and almost ruined one of my prints. The thing kept getting stuck and didn't melt in time
For PLA I always just use 2x the layer height (AKA, skip 1 layer), that seems to work every time for me. So when printing at .2 layer height, i do top distance .4, and when doing 0.08 layer height, i do top Z distance of 0.16.
Thank you!!
This is why you are the GOAT. Settings are not cut and dry or one-size-fits-all, seeing you break down settings, reasons, and showing comparisons it so much help for a novice like myself. some prints come perfect, others not. its easy to get frustrated, but nice to see others with failed prints too sometimes, even when dialed in. lol.
glad you made this, because the other day I was trying to figure out why I hadn't changed my support settings but yet my supports were completly welded to the print
Top Z will also affect the surface quality that are being supported When leaving a higher distance from the support to the supported structure you'll encounter much more stringing and droop so I feel like you should have brought this up as a factor to deciding how much distance is being used.
I have not experienced that at .26.
He briefly showed at 9:45, the 0.28, 0.3 actually looks better than 0.2, I assume it’s because the filament are not sticking to each other
you also change how that layer prints like rectilinear for example which can help your final quality.
This model was one of the very first prints I ever did with an undialed in CR-10s and cura didnt have tree/organic supports yet. You just brought back support removal nightmares
Fun trick: If you have a big flat overhang for some reason (like the test prints), you can pause the print at that layer and scribble over the grid supports with sharpie (laundry marker). PLA doesn't stick to that. You can use a zero-offset grid support and not have it stick at all. Obviously of limited use, but if you want (say) text embossed on both top and bottom of your print, it's pretty easy.
This is amazing! I can't believe no one has ever done a video like this before. I've already watched it five times and told all my friends to watch it too. Nice work!!
I did...
@@PixelForgeLab oh cool! I'll check it out!
Do you model and print as well?
You watched it five times because you couldn't remember that you just need to adjust the one setting? In any case this is hardly new. There's been several videos about it.
@@michaelgleason4791 and this one is copied from mine
Had some prints today with difficult to remove supports - having an easy way to test them will help a lot! I also didn't realize that it varies with filament. Now that I know that, I'll definitely be testing new filaments before printing supports with them. Thanks for the video and the models!
Do you make your model files before printing?
@@ayodelemarvellous850 sometimes. In this case, designing it to avoid supports would be tricky and I had limited time to make the design. But I do usually try to design so I don't need supports.
I love love love that you added the black filament and rolled with how it didnt do as you expected then moved on to green. I dont know if you were planning everything to happen the way it did or if you did the green because of what the black did, but a lot of us make the same mistakes so showing it in the video instead of editing it out makes us feel less crazy. It also keep people from falling into the same hole and not getting the results a youtube video shows. much appreciated!
Key is to remember also.. "rapid"/"fast"/"High flow" filaments are lower melt temps, so your supports are sticking more on those because even just the ambient heat of the print head can make the top layers of the supports sticky again vs normal PLA or PLA+ blends. Resulting in needing a higher gap to prevent filament drooping and sticking so easily.
Just want to say complete beginner and I'm having this problem, couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong. Going to try this tomorrow. Thanks for your video.
These kinds of videos are the reason why I support this channel
🥺🤘
dude takes other people ideas and makes his "interpretation"
Elegoo rapid pla plus is now my go to for printing as it’s been the easiest fillet ive used when it comes to me removing supports.
Black was good but when I couldn’t get it I ordered white and it’s been even better they just pop right off
This video saved me so much frustration, thank you!
Ok best video ever, thx you just helped me solve a setting I have had set at zero. I hatted tree support and now it’s so easy to remove supports. That’s why you’re the MVP on my printing team. Thx
The ELEGOO matte black is 100% my "go-to" filament for most things I make. It can handle high speed printing decently well too.
Agreed! Their rapid black PLA I now buy in bulk and use on my Bambu printers using the Bambu filament profiles
I have been buying Sunlu's Matte Black aPLA (Anti string PLA) for basically the exact same reason. and at 0.08LH the layers vanish.
OMG thank you... a few of my prints have been nightmares removing my supports, I'm testing this right now ! I was having problems on one that sat over night, one that I let cool a little and even one fresh off the plate!
Great comment !
Do you kinda make your files for printing?
This is a great info video. Cleaning supports I have done has been a challenge to almost impossible. I can't wait to try these settings on my next print. Again, thank you Uncle jesse for your time you use to do these tests to make it easier for us.
Just used 0.34 on a quite complex model , the supports came off sooooo easy , game changer !!
what parameter at 0.34?
Great video. I found this a while ago after having an absolute nightmare with tree supports.
The other thing which is worth looking at is if you actually need "Top interface Layers" or not. 90% of my prints now I have set this to zero and it prevents support from creating that top raft and just sends tree supports all the way to where the support is needed.
Great info and timely for me as I'm about to print something that needs center support, and a smaller version with the particular filament I'm using was an absolute bear to remove. What I wound up doing with that is hitting it with a heat gun a bit to soften things up a little, which let me get the support off clean. There's a balance between melting the print and softening that interface layer just enough, but if you start small and apply more heat as needed, it can really save a lot of headache and reprinting.
Thanks for the test models. I found the different settings made very little difference to the release of support material (Normal) from the print. All the large sample released pretty easy and all the small ones were difficult to release a couple of the sections. It almost seemed like I'd not even changed the settings per object but I checked and I did. More confused by the difference between the large and to small test samples. I did change both top and bottom Z value, so not sure if that makes a difference. I'm gonna retry with tree support and see how that works out.
I think the Z distance is always a multiple of your chosen layer height. If you enter anything that isn't a multiple, the slicer will just default to the nearest multiple. That's why you're not seeing the variation you might have been expecting in your results.
So are you saying the slicers override the value that you input for the supports? I think the biggest factor I saw with this test was that even if I run the exact same .gcode file the difference in the filament I'm using can impact my support removal. In this case the Matte Black vs the Rapid Green PLA needing a higher Z Distance - Thanks for checking it out and the additional input!
I agree, in orca with a 0.8mm nozzle and 0.6mm layer heigth, I can't dial the support distance between layer lines even though I have the option "independant support layer height" turned on
Was going to say same thing you beat me to it, and probably said it better as well 😂
No its because the supports are too small to matter (and tree supports too). Also he didnt check the quality of the overhangs to actually see the difference.
This will work if you're not using a purge block and you have the "Independent Layer Height" setting for supports in OrcaSlicer is selected.
I generally print in PLA silk, but I've had the same issue of supports fused with a duel coloured (2-toned) silk filament on the same settings. The fused issue was on my cr-10 s5's but not on my P1p
Ever tried Bambu lab?
Uncle Jessy you are always a big help. Thank you my brother
I just had an idea that would help all the tests. There could be a modification that allows you to write the reference of a parameter in the part. For example, instead of manually entering the Top Z Distance, you would place the variable in a specific location of the part, and as soon as you change the Top Z Distance value, the slicer would replace it in the final print.
That would be great. Thanks 👍
Is there any file you're looking to 3d print?
Minor quibble, but would outsetting the numbers on top instead of insetting make it print faster? That way the fill pattern for the top level is uninterrupted and the actual numbers can be overlaid fairly quickly as there's not much material there.
potentially but I dont think it would save very much time as the inset values is super shallow
In Prusa Slicer (v 2.8.1), it seems the top z distance is rounded to a multiple of the layer height. So 0.28, for example, is going to round up to 0.3 if your layer height is 0.1, but will round down to 0.2 if your layer height is 0.2.
I am under the same belief that top Z distance was only in increments of your layer height.... if .2 layer = 0.0, 0.2, .04 top Z height. you can set the Top Z height to any thing in-between but rounds to the layer height and does not make a difference. I use Cura 5.7 (since Cura 3.x) Can anyone confirm otherwise for Prusa Slicer / Cura / Other?
@@levih.4252 I'm using Prusa and looking at the layers preview, it seems to consider 0.x increments. Running some tests, will see the results later
i printed exact the same xenomorph in the past. i oriented it, that the tail was pointing upside. it turned out great and die supports were (relative) easy to remove.
I noticed something just yesterday....
I was printing a rather large flat to the plate surface that had multiple tree supports underneath. They were hard to remove of course but I noticed something....
On the surface above each support connection the was a matching melted indention.
These round supports are funneling HOT air up and assisting in fusing these supports to the main piece!
And yes, the more malleable the filament the more easily it fused!
So could you run smaller or less supports so that the heat isn't constantly being transferred up to the supported part?
Looking at your green Alien print, and the number of supports, I'm guessing the fusing is coming down from the heated filament ABOVE the supports.
What do you think sir?
Hmmm. I've been using 0.26 with variable layer height, assuming the minimum possible to remove is best. But maybe Z contact distance of 0.3 would cause less damage on removal. Thanks for trying this out.
Something that helps in orcaslicer, especially with ABS is the filament cooling setting. Having your printer turn on the fan to a certain percent, maybe like 25 for abs during overhangs and while printing supports works wonders.
I find that if I go much above 0.1 distance, my overhands look horrible. For context, I mostly print in ABS so overhangs are always going to struggle. But I just accept the extra work in pulling off supports to reduce the amount of fiddly sanding I'm doing.
I've also noticed - and again, in ABS - that how long the print sits makes a big difference. If I pull the print after an hour or so (having waited for the chambre to cool to minimize warping) supports seem to come off fairly easily. If it's hours later because it finished whilst I was asleep or at work or whatever, the supports are much more solidly attached. I don't know if this was in play with your xenomorph, but it's another variable to consider.
I see that you have all of these printers in what looks like a regular room. Do they not produce the toxic fumes? or is the room well ventilated and I just didn't notice? I am new to this and I don't know
Could you not have all the different sizes on the build plate and change the individual object's settings to print them all at once rather than having to do like 5 separate plates worth?
What software did you use on your iPad to model?
Shapr3d
PSA: it is highly advisable to wear safety glasses when removing supports. I learned this lesson the hard way.
@@jtms1200 ouch!! Agreed
Thanks this is exactly what I was looking for
im glad to see im not the only one having the od issue with xenomorph supports ;)
Definitely doing this for ASA on my Printers. Thanks.
So for pla, I used 200/60 with .185 top and bottom z contact. For abs, I do 227/110 with .19 top and bottom z. This is through with .2 layer height and using prusaslicer for my voron v0, so I highly recommend giving those values a shot, even if the settings in this video do help you start getting dialed in.
I run a small Print farm with 4 bambu's and use the AMS system alot- What's got me curious is that because I use different brands of filament, how can I "dial in" my support settings like this for multi colour prints...
I suppose I could choose a specific colour that I have dialed in and choose that as the interface layer 🤔
Bambu P1S ships with a small amount of filament called "Support material for PLA" which is supposed to act as a top layer for your supports that makes them east to peel off. Not tried it yet, but apparently it works. Others have said that using PETG on a PLA print in the same way also works as they are somewhat incompatible which makes them easy to peel off.
what green filament is that please
Elegoo Brightass green 🤣😂 it’s just their standard Green PLA
An interesting thing I've found with filament is that black is ALWAYS different. Matte and Deep Black PLAs are the only "normal" PLAs that I have different settings for on my Ender 3, and the only filaments I have ran flow calibration for on my Bambu P1S. Some of my most common issues are actually visible at 5:21 on your top layers where you have small gaps and a pillowing effect.
I have a feeling that because the colour black absorbs heat more than others, there is something different happening to the adhesion between layers compared to a lighter colour. Layers and walls are generally still very strong, but it always needs 1-2% higher extrusion than other colours. Maybe it's contracting more than other colours between layers and that's why the supports in this instance are coming away so easily
Hello, I have a question. I print at a layer height of 0.2. Should I do the tests with the same data you put in? 0.2, 0.24, 0.26, 0.28, 0.3? thanks for the help I have an Ender 3 V3 KE
That was awesome. It was very fun to watch and learn about those parameters. If I'm in trouble with supports, I'll remember this.
Maybe you could do a video about stringing issues? Funfact: if I use Orcaslicer, my prints are string-a-paloosa.
Printing the same object sliced in Cura, everything is fine. I even copied the Cura settings over to Orca;
Orca just looooves to produce me hairy prints.
Modifying reatract, Z-hop, wipe etc. nothing worked. Now I'm using Orca just for splitting bigger objects,
exporting them and finally print them over Cura for the results I hoped to achieve with just Orcaslicer 😅
never had issues with supports on default settings on my current printer but on my old one it was a huge pain.
I would like to know what setting is used to make the slicer actually obey the "Top Z distance". From my perspective, layer height is the only thing that OrcaSlicer obeys. Said another way, you had pretty much the same experience with all your prints in two groups: those that rounded to the exact layer height, and those that rounded to one layer away. Load up your parts, slice them, drag the layer preview down to where the support material ends and the next layer starts. See what happens for all your tests. Yep. For your tests, you either got attached to the layer above or one layer of skipping between layers. I'm guessing there is something that is going on with the extrusion rate on the top layer of support, but from the user interface perspective, your options are 0, 0.2, 0.4, or 0.6 if your layer height is 0.2. Set your layer height to 0.1, and now you can choose 0, 0.1, 0.2, or 0.3. Your choice of 0.28 at a layer height of 0.2 results in one layer being skipped between the top of the support and the next layer. Both OrcaSlicer and Bambu Studio exhibit this problem. PrusaSlicer does not have this issue. It will adjust the layer height to achieve the gap you set. If you want to get really geeky, look at the G-Codes. Example: G1 Z23.4 F24000. Set the height of the nozzle to 23.4 and the feed rate to 24000. Dig deep. If you want something supported at a height of 25.4, the code for the top of the support will be at a z height of 25.4 or 25.4-layer height. It rounds any number you put in the "Top Z distance" to an exact layer height. Weird, right?
Making a vid about supports for miniatures now with 1 hour duration. For minis there's a significant sag with overhangs/supported regions in my current best profile, but indeed making overhangs printable is a good thing to keep in mind with some exceptions.
Oh would love to see how that goes. I pretty much only print minis on resin printers but for sure lots of folks out there doing them on fdm
@@UncleJessy You can check out existing vid and short with showcase if you have some time. Those are kinda teasers for the process I've been working on for years and have refined very well lately. I can't afford to have a resin printer in home, and fumes are a concern for me and wife with our space and ventilation. Waiting for a tinymaker tho.
Hey, I finally did it, please check it out and tell me what you think.
What slicer software do you use
In the video? Very new to 3d printing.
My fav on social media is a lot of people just say change the threshold angle. which from reading the info that pops when you hover on the box made no sense, but I didn't know til a few days ago myself its the z distance that is the major factor. this video should help a lot of people get proper information.
If you put all the small ones on the plate and modify the support settings per-object, you can export that file and the settings will work for any printer that imports it into Orca.
Question: does matching layer height to the top layer distance make a difference?
Usually you will want to go slightly higher for the Top Z distance in my experience but now you can quickly test it out and see ;)
Another thing you could tweak/optimize, is the overhang angle. Quite easy to create a test block with different overhang angels (going from 45° to 60° e.g. with 1° or 2.5° increments)
I use matte almost exclusively for anything that is heavily supported. Whatever they do to make it matte has something to do with it. Maybe it cools slightly faster? So The next layer doesn't fuse as well without the nozzle pressure pushing down? Idk
I had the same thing with supports on black filament being easy to remove, but the orange i bought for Halloween stuff being welded on there. So badly so that i had to scrap finished prints because the supports were so hard to remove they ruined the model trying to get them off.
Best one for statues?
Well thats interesting. I never took a look at this setting and i always wondered why i had sometimes trouble with support removing. This was very helpful since I do a Neptune 4 and High Speed PLA from eSUN
What is the impact of the upper ceiling? You looked at one boundary, but there doesn't seem to be any info on the consequences of ramping that up much higher. Obviously there's a point where it's not actually giving any support at all cause there's a great big air gap, but it sounds like you should test where that point starts. Maybe it's around the .30-.40 range and you can't go much higher, but maybe it's actually at the 0.6 range and you can happily throw 0.40 at the wall and just have easier supports as a default. Be nice to see the other side of that quality curve.
Please wear safety goggles when removing supports that are super stuck on. I can see them flicking up into the air there at 11:05
You should do a test for PETG supports on PLA prints.
Matte PLA supports are much more easier to remove, compared to the regular PLA. I'm using Bambu printers and 98% of my prints are printed with 0.2mm layer height and the Z gap for supports is set to 0.1mm. This works absolutely amazing for me, removing the supports is a joy.
Also, recently I tried matte PLA for the support base layers in the regular PLA prints and it gives a result very close to the PETG supports.
Thank you for your work
I think a great addition to this would be to compare the same settings with the Tree supports vs the Standard supports and see if there is a big difference between those two styles as well.
Make filament extrusion width smaller than nozzle width or flow ratio lower on supports specifically, whatever your slicer allows, you get deliberately underextruded supports that sort of just flake off.
What I would like to know is for a multi filament, what could be used for supports like a weaker but sturdy support filament, IE TPA hard for PLA and PLA for ABS for example. Has anyone done this for FDM Printers? If so where and if not can you do something for that option?
Trying to get my head around how it would be printing in 0.2mm layers but somehow print the supports at a height between those layers? I've seen resolution be lower on support but it's usually a multiple of the layer height and not a 0.02 difference.
Please do a video on supports using different types of filament on a print using a different filament. I tried using PETG as a interface layer with no success. The print keeps clogging or the interface isn't able to even produce a layer for me. Would love to see how you tackle this problem.
I downloaded an stl file for a Hawker Hurricane fighter plane. It looked so corrupted in the slicer but I decided to print it anyway just to see this weird version. It printed perfectly just like in the slicer but the supports that I put to it was hellish to remove. In the end I gave up and just left ghastly Hurricane partially "entombed," so to speak, in support.
Try playing with support interface later and it's density. At least that's what it's called in cura, not sure about other slicers. I turn my density down to 40% and that helps release too
so layer adhesion is better with the rapid PLA? Interesting!
Best method is PETG with PLA interface (or visaversa) . But in some cases (cantilever parts) you want to have bed anchor cylinders (1mm diameter) to hold the part down to the bed or it want to curl up as the petg lift off pla (I’ve only done petg with pla interface).
Undersides are great.
1000% agreed. I showed that in a video recently on my XL… so dang awesome
how many people has idex/ams/dual extruder setups anyway? i really like that method, but it seems impossible/expensive for most of the users (excluding bambu guys, it seems like most of them has ams)
Isn't this based on the print temp of the Filament somewhat? HF filaments are often printable at lower temps. I'd be interested in a follow-up where you print the green at 5C increments and the same spacing and see how the difficulty varies.
Did the 0.34 distance work with the black filament as well? I love finding settings that work across any color, so I am curious
Temperature, temperature, temperature. I just went through this on a multi-section model print. The supports on the section where I dropped the extruder to 200C (from 210C) from the 10th layer up came off easily (0.28 top gap) while the second plate remained at 210C for the entire print resulted in fused supports and broken parts when I removed them.
Hmm... I always thought that the z distance had to be a multiple of the layer height. Like for 0.2mm setting, z distance could be 0 (no layer between) 0.2 (1 layer) or 0.4 (2 layers). Is it not just rounding the 0.34 setting to 0.4 for a 2 layer gap?
How does the slicer do the interim steps? Is the layer height for the top support layer printed thinner than the normal layer height? Previews in Orca suggest otherwise. All the same layer height...
No you are correct, this video is just plain wrong but your comment will be buried in the praise comments so who cares :)
Was temperature ever mentioned in here? My black filament prints 15 degrees colder than coloured ones, if this is the case for you this may also help the black ones to fall more easely
I'm really confused as my default is .16 top and bottom don't seem to stick at all. I'm afraid to increase it... I'm using bambu studio with my A1.
Hey Jess, Just wanted to let you know that there is a new filament manufacture in Buffalo Called Factory Filament if your not familar with them, The have this Filament Called DuraPet, its a type of Pet that is strong, sticks really well to the bed, doesn't need a heated chamber, and no fans. I'm gonna be getting some black and white this week when they get restocked. Thought you might want to try it out since they are somewhat a local company. They are literly half a mile from my house!
Thanks man I'm going to check this out
This is what Support for Interfaces is for.... makes the supports pop off in one piece most the time without affecting surface finish.
Great video! thnx for the great work!
I use tiny cones with the tip on the part, and it breaks off clean. multi filament can use a barrier layers of PLA.
i hope this dosent seem stupid but does it make a difference if i use elegoo filament on a anycubic macine and vice-versa i have an anycubic and my supports are always welded like that but there aren't many videos to help me with anycubic that Ive found
No, printers are agnostic to the brand of filament you use. Just each brand has their own special blend of each type and can have different results compared to another brand. Id suggest finding a brand that works for you consistently and generally stick with them, but dont be afraid to try other brands.
Not a dumb question at all. You can pretty much use any filament on any machine as long as it can print at that required filament temperature. Pretty much any brands PLA, Petg should run on any 3d printer. You can mix and match all day
Forgive me if I am wrong but doesn't the organic version of tree supports just use your normal layer height for the z distance no matter what you put in?
Glad it's not just me lol I wish some of these extra options were in Qidi slicer which seems comparatively basic. The other slicers don't seem to have Qidi P1 defaults
Had it set to .35 on my bambu A1mini with Anycubic grey PLA and that those supports are fused to the model. Any advice?
I tend to use 0.32mm top Z distance when printing @ 0.08mm layer height. Works very well for me :D
Great information as always Jessy I’ve been using .28 for sometime now never fails, out of interest when is Elegoo new machine being released
Which software did you used on your ipad to make the model??😮
shapr3d
I know its a bit of a luxury still, but I print in multi material, and print PLA supports for PetG and vice versa. I print BVOH for ASA and PA. It just works great! But It does not work on my single extruder printers ofcourse!
You also need to make sure that you have the "Independent Support Layer Height" option is turned on if you're using OrcaSlicer, and this will not work the same when using a purge block. If you're using a purge block you will only be able to choose a gap that is a multiple of the layer height. If using a purge block and you put in a Top Z distance that is not a multiple of the layer height the slicer will automatically choose a gap that is a multiple of the layer height setting.
Thank you, this video is very valuable.
That black spool on the printer is going to tangle 🤣
Every new printer I build or whenever I change to a new toolhead support distance tuning is one of things that are pretty much necessary.
Infimech TX supports just melt off using orca that came with the USB. Very easy to take off. Best printer out of my 4 printers. Abs is a breeze also.