I love when Klyden tells him "if you do this, I will leave you. And will not even give you the dignity of the sword." The way Bortus turns to look at him without a word but his expression says "you really think this is about us?"
Last time, Klyden stabbed Bortus' heart with a short sword as a response of divorce, according to the Moclan tradition. However, in this case, Klyden will divorce Bortus if he allows Dr. Finn to reverse Topa's gender, but will not stab Bortus with a sword like last time.
No better way to say it. This was about Topa, not Bortus or Klyden. Honestly, the fact Klyden kept putting his and Bortus’ relationship on the chopping block as basically black mail to keep Bortus from ever making any decisions against him always rubbed me the wrong way, which is good because I know it was written purposely but still 💀
Not only is this a huge decision for Topa, but it's also a huge rollercoaster of emotion for Bortus as he was struggling with the decision to allow for this to happen to Topa as he described his own shame in not allowing Topa to remain female.
He tried to prevent Topa being turned into a male. But the choice was taken away from him. It was Klyden that pushed for it to happen and the Moclan tribunal that ultimately handed down the verdict.
Klyden was born a female and has self hatred and so by making Topa follow his misguided he is making the same mistakes as did his parents. Besides Klyden is playing the victim thinking he’s doing what is best but in reality he is covering his own shame. This is bigger than him, this is for Topa to decide who should be what God and Nature made and whether people choose to believe in that or not is small minded.
@@Coyoteprime Klyden IS a victim. He is a victim of an extreme misogynist culture. Being a female in Moclan is literally a slow death sentence. The show later on proved the dangers of being one when Topa, a child, was tortured. Klyden has psychological scars from not being able to choose, but he was being realistic about his society and like any parent, afraid for his daughter. That made the characters and the problem complicated. People only focus on Bortus and Toppa. They treated Klyden without any consideration of his position. There is no right or wrong in this situation, only the consequences of each option and how to carry on when the choice is made. Really, Klyden was treated with underserved hate 😒
I wonder if that also gives an insight on Klyden's feelings and how it conflicts with Moclan culture. Klyden was willing to leave Bortus, yet was more than willing to break tradition in the process. I think it could be interpreted as, "I still love you, but I will refuse to live with you or have anything to do with you." It also further ties into his discussion with Topa later on. "I thought I hated you. But even then, I did not wish you harm. I simply did not know how to live with you."
@@malcolmmorin Especially since we see during marriage counseling that Klyden didn't actually want to leave when he divorced Bortus; it was a spur of the moment decision that he regretted afterwards. Klyden is a lot more complex than what we originally see him as.
@@hyrinshratuI think the best description of his character flaws was described by Isaac "I believe your capacity for logic and reason has been compromised by your indoctrination" he was a female converted into a male when does upbringing enforces his worst traits. Not saying I hate the character I'm just saying that Isaac statement I felt encapsulates everything about him perfectly
@@alienonlsd3209 As it often is the biggest haters are often the ones who are struggling with a deeper issue of self hate. We've seen this stereotype play out with anti gay activists who end up getting outed for doing gay things. Klyden was born female, altered to be male and spent a lifetime being told that being female was wrong, at some point they were made aware that they were born "wrong" it would mess anyone up, and it often does as they try and cope with conflicting feelings within themselves they do not fully understand and try desperately not to understand, plenty of trans folks can sympathize with Klyden to some degree as it's also their general experience of what it's like to be trans in a society that's hostile to them, some have the courage to grow and accept themselves for who they really are, others try and suppress it to be "normal" by societal standards and often project their hate for who they really are on others who are like them.
this scene is just so powerful, you can see that Bortus is willing to put his own relationship aside so that Topa can live as the person she truly knows she is. This entire episode deserves more praise tbh
THis arc was great, and this is how you do it. Rather then just basically forcing a political message down the audiance's throat like many modern media do, they use the fictional setting to tell the message, in this case having females in Maklan society be so rare that it's considered somehow wrong. THus they either get exiled or parents just give the baby a sex change to male. To then have Bortus and Klyden go through this arc was a great way to tell a message creativally, but also a personal arc for Bortus himself having to except Topa for who SHE is.
@@custyzone There are plenty staunch homophobes who, as it turned out, had grindr profiles or had entire stashes of gay porn, or were frequent participants gay orgies, ann of which they try very hard to keep secret, but there is always someone who talks or slips up some way. Literally a whole mountain of them, and they pretty much always make the news, especially when theyre politicians or politically involved, and its not even just in the US, its been happening with some European politicians, too.
The Orville does Trek waaay better than Star Trek these days (SNW might be the exception) We need more of this show. What a great balance between, humor, sci-fi and drama. Also please bring back Alara.
Penny Johnson Jerald was probably the MVP of the season when it came to acting, but Peter Macon as Bortus was definitely a close second. The emotions he showed in this episode just really sold everything for me
It is a real testament to Chad Coleman's acting talent that he portrays Klyden - a genuinely heinous, damn near irredeemable character - so compellingly.
Wouldn't go that far TBH, I don't condone what he says and his actions but a part of me does empathise. Not only is he clinging on to his cultural identity (which at times is not really much of an excuse for his actions and words I know) but he has felt immense pain and despair when he discovered he was born a girl. It more or less shattered what he believed and what he held very near and dear in him. TL:DR, he knows what the pain and inner suffering is like and doesn't want the same for his child. That been said, *SPOILERS* when Topa is saved by Bortus and Kelly from being tortured to near death, Klydon sees the error of his ways, accepts his daughter fully and sheds his bigotry and hate. All of his pain has been replaced by love for his daughter, his family and even his home on The Orville. He even buries the hatchet with Kelly and accepts her as a friend.
@@Bartman954 I have a parent like Klyden. I take a dim view of parents like Klyden. I, to, empathize with the abuse he suffered at the hands of the Moclan system, but that does not excuse the abuse they perpetuated on Topa. Or Bortus. Or the heterosexual Moclan he very nearly got killed. If the most unrealistic thing Star Trek ever showed was San Francisco NIMBYs allowing construction on the Marin Headlands, the most unrealistic thing about the Orville is that a parent like Klyden would *ever* admit they were even a little wrong
@@pjlusk7774 likewise with my parents. My mother suffered abuse as a kid and it passed down onto me to the point I refuse to have kids because I made the choice to stop generational parental abuse. (I have a nephew and niece and swore I would never raise my voice or lay a finger on them) Klyden could've stopped at the start and fully accepted his daughter from the start but alas his inner torment rise to the surface and in his mind he thought he could "spare" the pain that Topa would endure. At the very least I can see somewhat his intentions and he never used violence against his kid. (unlike what I suffered if I did anything effeminate which sucks since I'm a cis straight male, I occasionally vibe as a girl and like to wear girl clothing, wear makeup, got my ears pierced, etc which enrages my family and have practically disowned them because of that fact) So yeah, Klyden is very much in the wrong but his actions do have some level of understanding. Antagonist: yes, pure evil villain, no.
People saying this is a trans episode but isn't it really a reverse trans episode? The child was forcibly transitioned by her parents for their ideology and then wanted to return to how she was before the procedure.
Well, technically yes, but the dynamics and substance are the same as with trans people. In the sense that she goes against her society to conform to her true gender, and people around her, including her parents, have to decide wether they want to accept it.
As a conservative person that doesn't really support trans(as in people chose to be trans for pleasure instead of those who truly need) this is quite a complicated discussion.
With the description you said, I think it relates more to what some interex people experience with the doctors or parents choosing their sex for them and performing operation on the kid and raising them as that sex only for them to grow up and realize that that isn't who they are.
@@SchneeflockeMonsoon to be fair your right but all the tines sense they've some how bungled it even enterprise didn't do a good job ut wasn't a dig at discovery I'm not a retarded boomer out here boomer posting
I think its very staw manish. I don't remember it being explained why Moclins hate their females or why they chose to be a single gender species. Not even in season 1. There's no flash back. There's no explanation. I also remember they had a guest, a really tall mocklin that likes females. He got arrested and we never saw him again. Its not just about being trans. Its that for whatever reason, they don't like their females.
@@ixiahj it could just be a throw away comment that they never expected to take seriously we have to remember they were expecting orville to only have 1 season so there might not be a plan or arching story such as with DS9 and the dominion war, voyager and returning home etc this might be the start of it and they'll go on to explain the points you have stated in the next season or 2 as to why the mochlans are like this but I'll also concede they might not because its very rare to get that level of cohesive story telling from sci fi shows now for some reason
I imagine this scene was very impactful for intersex individuals who (at least here in the us) still have surgery done on their as infants all the time, inorder to “make them fit” either male or female.
@@PlagueRunnerThere it is, took a moment for the uneducated to rear their ugly head. Many people consider this a trans allegory (Even the main writer of the show Seth macfarlane) because of the obvious, but I’ll try to explain it to people who ever pass by your comment because I know you people don’t like facts and don’t change you mind through it. The Moclan has for centuries had it deeply imbedded into their culture that all female children have to forcefully change their gender to male to “fit into society” so this is the status quo. And I’m making the assumption that since they have done it for centuries that it has gotten to the point where the body doesn’t work as female since the intervention was so early that the brain doesn’t have time to process that they were a women. So to her, it’s normal and the status quo to be male. And even with all the smack talk of the female gender in their culture. She wants to revert back to the female sex because that’s what she wants and her brain identifies with. Edit: And if you try to make the case that she was born female and her brain neurons therefore correspond to being a female.. Then I’ll let you know right now that theres studies researching this phenomenon on transgendered people and many of them have their mind set to the gender they want to reasigne too.
Yeah it’s a good trans allegory, but the most fitting analogy based on how the Moclan species works is an intersex person (because females are rarely born and not necessarily part of the reproductive process. The ultimate takeaway is to let children decide for themselves what they want for their bodies and show them appropriate care and compassion when they say something isn’t right. Whether it’s a kid that’s intersex, or a kid born in a body opposite to the gender they have internally. Believe and trust them, even if it’s hard to hear or not what you wanted for them.
@@candicefrost4561 I wouldn't call it a good trans allegory if anything it's a good detransitioner allegory more so for those where it was forced on them by what I can only describe as evil parents at a young age
Why is The Orville the best Sci Fi series in 25 years?!?! Because, it took what it learned from Star Trek, and improved upon it to make a brilliant show!!!
The Orville set out to be a spoof, and to entertain in spite of the risk of giving offense. Trek and Wars have abandoned the idea of entertaining in favor of preaching
The only counter point I make is that she was born Female and then was Force Sex Changed to Male in Season one as Claire pointed out Restoring her to original but this is What Star Trek now The Orville does Wonderfully it makes us all see the Problem with a fresh perspective.
@@michaelkehathat implies people are being forced to be trans. Nobody is being forced to be trans. You are who you are. You don't have to like transsexuality or be trans or part of some gay pedophillic conspiracy to respect trans people. And to be perfectly honest whenever I see people venerate this arc from a conservative angle it makes me sick, because this isn't at all saying that people are forced to be trans in society today. If you genuinely believe people are forced to be trans in society today, then I have a bridge to sell you. Maybe some dick pills too. Whatever Infowars is hocking anyway.
@@michaelkehano one forces kids to transition. You are under the assumption that a trans person is a choice. They are born that way and want to be recognized as the gender they identify with. I hope you've actually watched the orville or star trek in general to understand problems in society.
@@michaelkeha Exactly, the issue is that parents and societal norms and culture try to decide what's best for people, such as the trend that is a purely binary and hard-set gender/sex scale, and we instead need to respect their identity and support them!
Blesson Yates is a child actor who portrayed Topa, the son of Bortus and Klyden, in the second season of The Orville. For the third season, the role was taken by Imani Pullum and Topa was return to the right gender, which was girl ☺
They aren't divorced Klyden did try to divorce him but the captain didn't allow it to happen since in there Culture to divorce is to stab there partner in the chest and let him die but to leave one's partner alive is shameful
"I will leave you, and I will not even give you the dignity of the sword" That's what this line was referring to, the "Moclan divorce" Which is super weird if I'm reading the context right. Klyden will not stay with Bortus but they will still technically still be legally married. It's either seen as a punishment to Bortus, or as an open-ended way to eventually come back if Klyden changes his mind. Which is fucked up because Bortus tries to be a good dad, and their was that weird-ness/tense between Bortus and Kelly where Topa might have had a fully supportive family putting Topa first before all else, and then the end of the episode makes that seem completely false when Klyden comes back
Form what I gathered, this species is able to give birth or lay an egg with a female or male parts helping but there are females and males. So what I'm hearing females and males can lay eggs
@@codename495I assumed they were considered genetically weaker due to not being capable of breeding with males of their species and having less inherent muscle mass. Or that the species evolved pass the need for different genders and gave to a single gender that's capable of reproducing. Either that or it was like the Ferengi and then at some point in time there was a massive cultural shift from a matriarchy to a patriarchy but I feel like if it was that they would have directly referenced it and based off of the biological and cultural traits we have seen I would find the idea of out evolving the need for different Sexes and females essentially being the equivalent of a outdated operation that's useless in their society.
Klyden really can't hear how bullshit his argument is? It's against my peoples laws. Well, klyden, your not on moclus and moclus law doesn't apply to space. He doesn't understand. You've made it abundantly clear to her, and you took that choice from her as a baby. I'll leave you, bortus, if you choose our son over my wishes. Choosing her over you seems like the right choice, klyden, because you're demanding Bortus abandon his daughter to please you.
Klyden is dealing with the fact that he didnt get the choice, and cultural indoctrination. He isnt right he but i get his feelings towards the situation
No, Klyden is simply self-hating and insecure. Klyden was born female and had his sex changed surgically by his fathers, who explained to him that they did what they had to do to protect him. As a result, he's convinced that if Topa refuses to be male, it means either that Topa has a death wish or that he could've done something about his own condition and didn't because of fear.
Btw. Topa wants to become a Union Ship Captain. And this would make such an excellent spin off series bc one, theres never been a female moclan in the Union. And 2: theres never been a female Moclan Union Captain. So seeing her rise to this rank against a whole lot of odds would be amazing.
Feel like a lot of intersex people can also connect with it. I am sorry for everyone were the parents forced a gender onto u and a surgery that probably affected most intersex peoples health in a negative way. Not intersex myself, but the fact that in most of these cases, no one considered how it will affect the body during puberty and that coming from doctors is truly disturbing. Stay safe everyone and take care. ❤
This seems incorrect and correct me if I'm wrong but this isnt how it it. Intersex people still present strongly as one sex over the other by way that not intersex person has both complete reproducing organs, i.e. it's never possible to get yourself pregnant. They have working male or female parts. Not both.
I'm so glad that they had the doctor say "under normal circumstances, I couldn't do this until she was an adult." They actually acknowledged the medical reality of altering a childs biology and chemistry before they're done hormonally developing.
Star Trek Lower Decks and The Orville are two shows that embody what ØG Star Trek fans want. Societal issues that are placed in well written and well acted shows! Rocky starts for both but they have grown..
IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO CHOICE. Why is it okay to do this to a BABY who cannot consent, but an ADULT asking for this, who has understood ALL of the consequences, has the RIGHT to decide for themselves, but people will shout them down for not “thinking it through” or “understanding the situation”. Or being “too young.” The RIGHT to self determination.
I saw an interview of Seth were he was asked along the lines of why he sticks voice over characters so such and he said just enough to keep the demons at bay. I bring this us as the reason why we don’t see him serious scenes like this. He could be the best drama actor in recent memory he just choses not to and he has every right to but man are we missing out on something special.
This episode's plot is more timely now than ever before. Society wants to decide what children are and should be rather than letting them decide for themselves. It's their lives, not ours. A child should not have to compromise on who they believe they are as a person just so they can appease a society who refuses to let them be themselves. You would think that simply allowing these people to live life as they want and to be happy is an easy enough thing to do. But real life and this episode show us that there's more to it than that, and it's up to all of us to be better and more understanding of those who choose to be different. I wanna give kudos to Seth and the Orville team. There was a time when Star Trek was at the forefront of acknowledging and confronting timely societal issues through their shows but it seems it was the Orville that had the balls to tackle trans issues specifically.
I've watched Klyden evolve through the two series and I've just finished "A Tale of Two Topas" today and I can't help but say Klyden can go eff himself. Telling his baby girl he wished she had never been born. Bortus won Best Dad Ever award when he immediately told his little girl, "Listen very closely to me. You are perfect." Bortus is my hero. He tried and tried to make that marriage work and he's the best Dad ever.
@@Kobold_GreenSeth hasn’t written for family guy in years. And even when he did, he didn’t write for them nearly as much as people think. He exists only as a voice actor now for the show.
This is literally how coming out Trans is like and people not accepting or understanding and addressing it. I love it so much. As a trans man, this deadass is exactly how it is for Topa as it is for me. Being born female and WANTING to be male, but people not accepting it. It's deadass a role reversal and I LOVE THIS. It's the role reversal of Topa wanting to stay the gender she was born as and not being allowed to and loving her unconditionally. Now imagine this, but replace Topa as wanting to become male and not being allowed to and loving him unconditionally for it. IT'S THE SAME THING. I love this. I love Bortus and Klyden for it.
The situation above isn’t someone being weird and wanting to be accepted by everyone. It’s the mutilation of a child and people used to be executed for that stuff
Key difference though. One is about undoing bodily mutilation, the other is about requesting it. Not gonna weigh in on the morality, just pointing out the reality.
I love how the doctor admits this is a special case, and that normally: you wait until the person has reached adulthood and their brain has finished developing so they can make an informed decision. I wish more people understood why that’s such a hurdle (of many) to our modern “medicine” that makes this issue so hard to overcome.
@@SchneeflockeMonsoon no like literally, transgender children do not have surgery. it's a made up problem, nobody under 18 is going through SRS. if you want a more accurate comparison to this situation, intersex people are very often forcibly assigned a gender at birth and have surgery done on them without consent, which can lead to a lot of these same identity and hormonal issues down the line.
I've not seen the orville but this feels like it tackles one of star trek's most underrated strengths, that being the philosophical and moral dilemmas presented in certain episodes and the willingness to talk about issues even somewhat adjacent to what's being dealt with today.
There was one planet in star trek the next generation, where it was illegal to be male or female, and those who did, got the equivalency of a lobotomy. But I think this is a better show talking about gender rights, than even star trek.
I found it weird how some saw this as an anti-trans sentiment. I see it as the opposite. It's against the idea of forcing a gender on another person who may not fit that role.
You’re exactly right. I think the cast even confirmed this. The problem is, a lot of people genuinely believe the Moclun ideology is real. Even if that was the case, Bortus made it very clear he’s not against Trans; he stated he wants Toppa to be free to decode
@@matthewvollmer2066 I think it's also because Seth has arguably gotten it wrong in the past, and more likely because some people just don't like the guy for whatever reason.
I have very little information but i understand that their species have only one gender and their culture and beliefs surrounds this. Not only that, its their biological nature. So for her to be a gender thats completely different is unheard of. Personally this is an unbelievably difficult discussion. The parents wants whats best for their child and unfortunately it doesn't always justify what they have to do. I can't be mad at their decision to change the nature of their daughter because i think its because they're looking after her future. They know the dangers of discrimination she'll face against her entire people. Now, the situation they have is that their daughter discovered it and now must decide whether or not to support their child or completely abandon her (in the sense her never being her true self). What an awsome show.
Anyone who says a parent should not force a child to be trans should realize that parents don’t force their kids to be trans it’s up to the child. If there are parents that do force their kid to be trans then it is a very rare occurrence
I'm grateful that someone is willing to provide a voice for reason to support those in society that would otherwise have no support. As an ally, if you read this, you matter. Your life has meaning. You are a human, and I support you.
Are you kidding? Trans people have gotten nothing but support the last decade. The media, corporations, government, schools etc. Almost all support these trans ideologies. In fact, it's so supported that anyone who even slightly disagrees, are called big ots. Even though their disagreements are based on biological facts. Social media sites like Facebook, Pinterest, Reddit, Tik Tok, ( And until recently) Twitter would suspend or ban you for disagreeing or showing support for facts. They call it 'hate speech' for logical and factual discussions or respectful disagreements.
This is such a well written trans story in which technically it is a detransition, cuz Topa was forcibly transitioned, but the beats of it is so parallel to a kid coming out as trans.
"I know they basically graped her with transition, but I find trans kids inspiring so there's still a positive light to it" This is like me saying that slavery was ultimately a good thing because it physically contributed to the economy. Just... ignoring all the damage done, huh?
@@KatonNeko, quite right. Further proof, were any required, that gender reassignment surgery doesn't alter personality. Klyden is biologically male by virtue of a medical procedure, but he's still the same person he was born to be. The doctor didn't change who he is.
I thought the trans allegory was pretty clear but judging by comments, obviously not. Lots of people ignoring the fact that Topa is literally (AMAB) Assigned Male at Birth by Moclan society. Then wants to transition as she does not see herself as male.
Look, my sister did the same, but remember, I had a brother before and to just say she is my sister after 10 years. It's too much to take in for a short time. To me, when she told us this, to me I felt that my brother was destroyed. I loved my brother he was my best friend and a father figure. It took time but I had to get to know my new sister. And after 5 years, I'm happy for her. Just remember, this takes time, your before identity was loved, but also give us time to moarn our loss, and then to come to your new identity.
The thing is, the brother you thought you knew was always your sister; she was just forced to wear a mask all that time. She was always your sister, and the core of her being never actually changed. All she did was stop wearing a mask.
@@rekkariley652 Sorry you feel that way, but I and my family have already worked this out in our own culture way. We all love our New sister. But she even thought that we should all say goodbye to who he was. And together we came to know her, and love her.
@@amz8974 “I’m sorry you feel that way”? Really, dude? I told you the truth. Not my “feelings.” Your sister didn’t suddenly “become trans.” She always was. Always. There’s literally NO ONE TO MOURN, because your sister was ALWAYS THERE. She’s literally the same damn person!
Well, like I said. We have done what we ALL agreed to to how WE did this. Everyone has there own processes. So if you want to fight, then sorry but I won't be a part of that.
This is not an “anti trans episode” it is strongly pro trans. There are probably Less than 2 parents who “forced” a kid to become trans. When a parent “allows” the child to transition it’s because the child “wants”to be a girl or boy and if they don’t transition it may have harmful consequences on the child
>probably less than 2 parents I'm laughing like the bald guy from Pawn Shop right now. You're the same kind of person to deny child trafficking because it would be inconvenient for your politics to acknowledge that it was happening at all, effectively trading those children's lives for your own sense of emotional well-being. Nobody cares what you think, thought-trash. No trans kids.
This is sort of like the X-Men, where it can represent a number of groups. I can see both trans and intersex folks seeing themselves. Though I believe intersex people aren't as acknowledged in stories.
"The consent of at least 1 parent. Doesnt require both" That is literally the most brain dead law i have ever heard. Imagine for a moment you as a mother have 0 say in the upbringing of your son just because he always happens to agree with his father. Or even worse. The other parent agrees with anything for the child out of spite to the other parent. Oooor if some manipulative person happens to convince only 1 parent? Maybe they even choose a stupid parent? Theres soooo many problems here
Welcome to the real world, there are actual laws in place that do that. One for example is that a parent can legally marry off their underaged child in a couple states, sometimes with a judge agreeing.
The doctor was advanced and knowledgeable enough to not only understand human medicine but to be able to fix the sexual and biological issues of another sentient species. That is one mighty doctor
When two civilizations come in contact it is never a good idea to impose their values on each other it will always lead to a clash. No matter how bizarre or outright inhumane it may seem these customs and values are part of their civilization which have flown through generations and to impose your values onto them and expect that they should change for you is very human thing which is not for so many reasons is not a good value. We must always remember if someone or something does anything wrong it is not just others or something that is wronged they also wrong themselves or it. And that will ultimately lead to their or its end. If they don't then it is to be inferred that although it may seem wrong but there might be something right in it for them or it if not for us. We have examples over examples of religion, ideology, politics and cultural wars going non stop only because one individual or group want to impose their value onto others. And anyways as a human civilization we shouldn't think we are better than others, since the rise of our civilization we have caused extinction of various others human and non human. Diversity in values is as important as it is of ethnicity and culture.
"Meet me in the middle" says the unjust man, you take a step forward he takes a step back. "Meet me in the middle" says the unjust man. When the belief is that someone is worth less because of who they are, it is fundamentally at odds with any notion of diversity.
your posit only works if the differing cultures are separate and never overlap. the second contact is made one or both must adjust. the process of adjustment is never clean and a comparison of values is unavoidable and those values will be ranked. not all views are of equal value nor is every culture of equal value, the lesser will fade the stronger rise this is the natural process. the closer they are to one another the more they will meld into a new view with aspects of both, but contact between cultures will leave both changed. you can't stop it and trying just causes stagnation and eventual collapse and conquest. diversity is at best a goal, at worst a fatal flaw that will tear your culture apart as the new equilibrium is found. as a simple example blasphemy laws are abhorrent to western civilization akin to allowing mass murder. in some nations it is not just accepted but expected for people to form mobs and kill the heretic. these two values can not exist side by side in the same society. nor can laws condemning gays to death stand beside laws allowing gay marriage. only one of each can stand the others must get thrown away with in the singular society, to try otherwise is to invite failure.
what if their custom is to hand over their women as gifts? would you hand over your wife and daughter? we must respect other cultures but we must also draw a line on basic morals regardless of who gets offended. denying Topa's femininity was driving her to depression and suicide. her life was on the line and her people's culture demanded she suffers as her mother did. that is not cultural disagreement, that is child abuse and oppression, women deserve equal rights and respect.
@@JayJayM57 down side is if you get together 100 random people you will have 100 different versions of morals and ethics with no true overlap between them. what is abuse to you is a Tuesday morning to others. this leads me to disagree other cultures are not deserving of respect solely because they exist. they must earn my respect by actions. if they behave in a way I can respect then they have it. if they murder their daughters for showing an ankle as an example, no they will not get my respect because their acts are not worthy of it.
@@kertagin1 Agreed, I generally perceive more cultures as a good thing but I get annoyed at the people who want to ignore immorality and call it different cultures. I have absorbed parts of other parts of people's cultures like taking my shoes at the door to keep the house clean, changing my manner of talking to not be considered aggressive and loud, and I stop using my cultural greetings as others may view them as improper( male and female kiss on the cheeks, males and males hug). but if you have child marriage, we have a problem.
This show is a PERFECT example of how would we humans react and behave if we finally reached for the stars and met other species. Be it for single sex species, species who don't look like us or even species who have different ideologies from us. Are we going to respect their culture and beliefs or are we just going to be stubborn and force our human ideologies on other species.
How it should be. Both sides presented, neutral stance, let the audience decide. But, while Topa is xenos. There's no take backsies in real life for baseline humans. Makes this even more harder considering that this and the tng episode might be cited as see its easy. Not without almost geneforging the entire genome.
This was a better scene than the way star trek does it. Every new species thats advanced respects pronouns in star trek and they never miss a chance to hamfistedly point it out
Just remember folks, they’re lucky to live in the future where such intensive surgery can be done and undone with no complication. We do not have that luxury. Such a process tends to be irreversible, at least currently. You only have one life, so treat it with care.
The Y chromosome is shrinking, a couple billion years men won't exist regardless of internal identity. Asari from Mass effect are one example. But there is also an all female lizard species in real life. Moclus society itself is inevitably going extinct, and Klyden still adheres to it...if I were a father, I'd punch him for one fight, and kick him for all future fights.
Well yes and no it’s impossible as of now to procreate without a male Asari actually reproduce asexually so in all technically they don’t need a mate and are completely different Almost all living life forms needs a counter gender or reproduction is done via oneself Humans aren’t in the latter so another gender will exist at this time
This is false. Just because the Y chromosome may disappear (and there is no reason to think it will do so) does not mean that men will cease to exist. That's not how it works. It will just be another chromosome that will determine whether or not a fetus will develop into a male or female. There is already a species of rodent that does just that. They lost their Y chromosome but they still have both males and females. It's just that XX will produce females and XO will produce males. The reason this is is because genes on the Y chromosome that determined sex was absorbed into another chromosome. So they still have all the genes necessary to produce males, they just don't require a Y chromosome to do it.
People really need to watch the whole series to understand this scene. It’s not supporting trans people or gender surgery as Topa was originally a female and she wants to go back to her original gender. It’s literally against those ideals of changing your body as it shows the horrible effects it can have. So stop making this argument that it’s pro trans.
@@voidpriest4659Lookit that, _the doctors that were pro-trans _*_forced_*_ the surgery on the child._ It's almost as if we've come full circle, trans people are no longer "oppressed," and they are literally so free to do as they wish that it ruins the lives of children.
It hurts to see in the comments how many people watched this episode and *somehow* got an anti-trans message from it. It's not trying to say "kids are being forced to be trans and that's bad and we shouldn't be trying to talk about gender to kids", it's saying "parents and the government ignoring how kids feel to impose what they believe to be 'normal' on them is bad". Nobody needs to hear the message "It's wrong to force your children to transition" because that's a fucking myth spread by people who think they know best how to raise everybody else's children. Seriously, it always amazes me how conservatives can watch a show that has so many plainly progressive messages like this or Star Trek and somehow twist what they're seeing into thinking it's in support of exactly what it's saying is bad. It's like the people that watch Star Trek and think it's about the importance of having a strong military and a single strong, wise leader to make the important decisions.
@@DarynLuna It's having the conversation. That's what scifi does. It's having the conversation in order to get a subject out in the open that is too hot button to address in any other reasonable way. If you're firmly partisan on one side or the other having the discussion will feel like siding against you because talking points for both sides are being presented. That's a you problem, not a show problem.
@@SlideIX Nah. There's just right and wrong. If a child is behaving abnormally, it should be addressed not covered up. Abnormal is not normal. It's the definition.
Just recently two diffrent parents were caught on video coaching thier "trans child" through the interview. So yes forcing transition does happen. A teacher was caught telling her class if they were not 100% comfortable with their body they were in fact trans. How many kids going thru puberty are 100% comfortable with their body? Ever !? When it is illegal to allow a child to get a tattoo but you are going to allow them to decide to permenantly mutilate themselves. Hell last year she wanted to be a pony! Cut off her hand/feet and sew on hooves? Medical fact , 97% of minors in gender confusion grow out of it as they mature. But once you have carved them up there is no going back.
I think that it's great the Orville covers such issues, but I also scoff at the hypocrisy of anti-ST:D Orville folks. Try to be consistent, and it's not as if Orville writing or acting is all that better than the other, now that I've watched Orville firsthand.
There aliens and that child was originally female to begin with there society is hyper masculine because that’s just how there society evolved maybe though trauma maybe though policy that created a downward spiral either way it’s not even transgender she was a girl is a girl and wants to be a girl her society just won’t let it happen because they genuinely hate women it’s good scifi and it’s a social structure I haven’t really seen before in society yea there are places that hate women or do not see them as equals but to completely try and genocide a gender it’s wacky but in a sci-fi show it probs would be possible I mean you have mysandrist who genuinely wish for a world where man don’t need to exist and mysoginist who wish for the oppersite due to trauma and mistrust this just takes it to the logical extreme
You don’t like this Jeb because you can’t enjoy anything that shows a different world to your own even if it’s fantasy or sci fi your the same type of person who wants things to be realistic in fantasy you can watch a dragon but a black women being queen or a gay man in fantasy is too unrealistic to the times which is dumb it’s sci fi fantasy stop assuming everything has to be made to your specific political image just enjoy tv or don’t watch this show it’s that simply your the type of guy who goes around and cancels shit you don’t like lmao
They kinda presented it in a weird way cause you know, she was originally female so shes not trans if she reverted to her original gender. They are making fun of the whole argument that kids are not mature to make enough to make such a decision but she was forced against her will to change genders its just weird and make no sense unless they presenting the alien as a hypocrite or they are against trans given the context.
Alot of people in the comments seem to be ignoring the fact that it should be Topa's choice and no one elses "It's about time we all stop trying to decide what she is, shut up, and let her tell us".
The problem is that a lot of people don’t properly understand what they are getting into, now without knowing how moclans mentally mature we can’t say, but this is how it is, plus topas is at the ground zero of a political tie
A great cautionary tale for why we should not be transitioning children. Allow them to discover who they are after their bodies and minds have fully developed, then, and only then, correct any disparities between mind and body.
If a child is questioning their gender and they don’t think it matches their sex they should go on hormone blockers which pretty much puts puberty on pause and completely reversible . I wish my parents allowed me to go on hormone blockers because now permanent changes have been done to my body that I have to struggle with every single day of my life and pay thousands to have altered to allow me to actually recognise myself in the mirror as myself where I could’ve been saved from that mental anguish if I was put on some simple harmless medication
Actually, I think puberty blockers are a better option, not only will they save your kid the agony of going through the wrong puberty if they are trans, they are also completely reversible if your kid isn't trans. Seriously people. Talk to your doctors, and listen to your kids. Give them the time and means to discover themselves and find what makes them happy. Save them from the torture of going through the wrong puberty if you can and respect the name and pronouns your kid asks for. I get that seeing your kid change can be incredibly hard, but the joy that they'll have if allowed to be who they are will be worth it.
@@legendswarble2845 I wish I didn’t need to mention this but people will latch onto this if I don’t .children can only go on hormone blockers if they request it They cannot be forced onto in most countries there is a massive rigourous path you have to go down to get put on hormone blockers. There has been more cases of transgender individuals being murdered than children being forced on hormone blockers without their permission
@@oreolaw9911 Absolutely. Part of what slightly muddles the metaphor the Orville was going for is that Topa is both intersex and transgender and, at least in the US many intersex infants are forced into sex reasignment surgeries to be either male or female regardless of who that child might turn out to be inside, because that society doesn't respect the validity of existence outside of a binary. So, that part of her story comes from the show attempting to tackle that issue and specifically where it intersects with intersex kids who were forcibly changed and how they would rather be, thus aligning them with the transgender experience as well. It's a very specific occurrence that they chose to tackle, but as a trans person who is not intersex, I think they handled it well.
I love the fact that this is a girl who was forcibly modified into something she wasn’t trying to turn back into what she was born as. How many kids are going to be trying to do the same in 10-20 years after the gender identity stuff right now and won’t be able to? We are who we are and what we are. Teaching our kids to love who they are should be so much more important and valuable than telling them that if they aren’t good enough, interesting enough, or that if they don’t like something they can get rid of it or change it entirely. Life isn’t about trying to have perfect happiness all the time. It’s about dealing with the problems and adversities, overcoming them, and finding real contentment and happiness despite those problems.
@@DAndyLord a girl that was forcibly changed into a boy because of misguided gender ideas being changed back into a girl, restoring her to who she was. Pretty sure that I haven’t missed anything.
@Explain the fun away that’s your opinion, but considering the fact that Topa was forcibly changed into something she wasn’t and wants to be turned back to the way she was born, sounds like I got at least a few things right.
"He is a child he does not know enough to make these decisions!" "How do you not see the hypocrisy there?!" There isnt any. They are adults. They DO have enough to make those decisions for THEIR child. This goes faaaar beyond just her and their feelings. She will unironically be 100% ostracized and be unable to interact with her own race. How is that not an important factor?
There is always the females Moclans but I think she doesn’t care. Considering how they treat her already I don’t believe she cares about interacting withy he makes Moclans
@@BrowncoatGofAZ children are not fully prepared to make choices for themselves in every situation. This is why military conscription, sexual consent, medicinal wellness, and other things are not choices children are able to make.
Damn, as soon as I remember that Klyden used to be female too, I feel sad for him. He's basically what Topa might have become with enough time and Moclan culture.
![Gunna - HIM ALL ALONG [Official Visualizer]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/HiCxoDeo0hc/mqdefault.jpg)
1:48
“He is an adolescent!”
“She was a Baby!!”
Tell me there’s no better counter than that.
klyden uno reverse XD
Very much a perfect comeback
Clever mash up of the naturalistic fallacy in this story. The social engineering of shite TV..... is the purpose of shite TV.
@@Rob-ik3fd explain
@@Rob-ik3fd
I love when Klyden tells him "if you do this, I will leave you. And will not even give you the dignity of the sword." The way Bortus turns to look at him without a word but his expression says "you really think this is about us?"
Peter Macon was underrated in his performance as Bortus, even with all the prosthetics on his face.
That look absolutely said:
“Do what you want. I’m doing what’s right by OUR CHILD!”
The look though was like Ok, but I am doing it for the sake of our kid not us
Last time, Klyden stabbed Bortus' heart with a short sword as a response of divorce, according to the Moclan tradition.
However, in this case, Klyden will divorce Bortus if he allows Dr. Finn to reverse Topa's gender, but will not stab Bortus with a sword like last time.
No better way to say it. This was about Topa, not Bortus or Klyden. Honestly, the fact Klyden kept putting his and Bortus’ relationship on the chopping block as basically black mail to keep Bortus from ever making any decisions against him always rubbed me the wrong way, which is good because I know it was written purposely but still 💀
“Restoring what was taken” is very powerful statement.
Not only is this a huge decision for Topa, but it's also a huge rollercoaster of emotion for Bortus as he was struggling with the decision to allow for this to happen to Topa as he described his own shame in not allowing Topa to remain female.
He tried to prevent Topa being turned into a male. But the choice was taken away from him. It was Klyden that pushed for it to happen and the Moclan tribunal that ultimately handed down the verdict.
Klyden was born a female and has self hatred and so by making Topa follow his misguided he is making the same mistakes as did his parents.
Besides Klyden is playing the victim thinking he’s doing what is best but in reality he is covering his own shame. This is bigger than him, this is for Topa to decide who should be what God and Nature made and whether people choose to believe in that or not is small minded.
@@Coyoteprime Klyden IS a victim. He is a victim of an extreme misogynist culture. Being a female in Moclan is literally a slow death sentence. The show later on proved the dangers of being one when Topa, a child, was tortured. Klyden has psychological scars from not being able to choose, but he was being realistic about his society and like any parent, afraid for his daughter. That made the characters and the problem complicated.
People only focus on Bortus and Toppa. They treated Klyden without any consideration of his position. There is no right or wrong in this situation, only the consequences of each option and how to carry on when the choice is made. Really, Klyden was treated with underserved hate 😒
_"You must hear the tale of Rudolph!"_
There is also the added fact that earlier in the series Klyden came out to Bortus saying that he, Klyden was also born female
3:02 I love how they had to clarify that for canon so fans wouldn’t be confused as to why Klyden didn’t try to impale Bortus with a sword again
I wonder if that also gives an insight on Klyden's feelings and how it conflicts with Moclan culture. Klyden was willing to leave Bortus, yet was more than willing to break tradition in the process. I think it could be interpreted as, "I still love you, but I will refuse to live with you or have anything to do with you."
It also further ties into his discussion with Topa later on.
"I thought I hated you. But even then, I did not wish you harm. I simply did not know how to live with you."
@@malcolmmorin Especially since we see during marriage counseling that Klyden didn't actually want to leave when he divorced Bortus; it was a spur of the moment decision that he regretted afterwards. Klyden is a lot more complex than what we originally see him as.
@@hyrinshratuI think the best description of his character flaws was described by Isaac
"I believe your capacity for logic and reason has been compromised by your indoctrination" he was a female converted into a male when does upbringing enforces his worst traits. Not saying I hate the character I'm just saying that Isaac statement I felt encapsulates everything about him perfectly
@@alienonlsd3209 As it often is the biggest haters are often the ones who are struggling with a deeper issue of self hate. We've seen this stereotype play out with anti gay activists who end up getting outed for doing gay things.
Klyden was born female, altered to be male and spent a lifetime being told that being female was wrong, at some point they were made aware that they were born "wrong" it would mess anyone up, and it often does as they try and cope with conflicting feelings within themselves they do not fully understand and try desperately not to understand, plenty of trans folks can sympathize with Klyden to some degree as it's also their general experience of what it's like to be trans in a society that's hostile to them, some have the courage to grow and accept themselves for who they really are, others try and suppress it to be "normal" by societal standards and often project their hate for who they really are on others who are like them.
this scene is just so powerful, you can see that Bortus is willing to put his own relationship aside so that Topa can live as the person she truly knows she is. This entire episode deserves more praise tbh
THis arc was great, and this is how you do it. Rather then just basically forcing a political message down the audiance's throat like many modern media do, they use the fictional setting to tell the message, in this case having females in Maklan society be so rare that it's considered somehow wrong. THus they either get exiled or parents just give the baby a sex change to male. To then have Bortus and Klyden go through this arc was a great way to tell a message creativally, but also a personal arc for Bortus himself having to except Topa for who SHE is.
He wants what’s best for his daughter since the day she was born❤
He*
@@DankMemer42013Nah
whats wild is all of Klydens rage of this is their own self hatred because they were also born female
It's wild but not surprising. We see the same in our modern human societies.
@@angel_cat exactly. Some of the worst homophobic comments come from people who later come out as being gay themselves.
@@AussieRider20😂😂 wild statement with no evidence to back it up 😂
@@custyzonecheck out the homosexual
@@custyzone There are plenty staunch homophobes who, as it turned out, had grindr profiles or had entire stashes of gay porn, or were frequent participants gay orgies, ann of which they try very hard to keep secret, but there is always someone who talks or slips up some way.
Literally a whole mountain of them, and they pretty much always make the news, especially when theyre politicians or politically involved, and its not even just in the US, its been happening with some European politicians, too.
Now that Moclus is kicked out of the Union, we need an episode where Talla goes rogue and frees Locar from a Moclan prison.
If he's still alive😳
@@jaelynmariri779 they probably have some sort of "re-education" or "deconversion" center
I agree
Great, like they need to start another war, when is the fighting going to stop?
@@senister14 They're already at war with Moclus.
The Orville does Trek waaay better than Star Trek these days (SNW might be the exception) We need more of this show. What a great balance between, humor, sci-fi and drama. Also please bring back Alara.
Penny Johnson Jerald was probably the MVP of the season when it came to acting, but Peter Macon as Bortus was definitely a close second. The emotions he showed in this episode just really sold everything for me
@@skippythealien9627 Sisko still delivered the "this is not a " line better
I'd love to see Alara back, but Halston Sage doesn't want to return.
I like the new security officer way more
@@r.c.auclair2042 what happened there? Didn’t she date Seth Macfarlane and get fired when they broke up?
It is a real testament to Chad Coleman's acting talent that he portrays Klyden - a genuinely heinous, damn near irredeemable character - so compellingly.
Wouldn't go that far TBH, I don't condone what he says and his actions but a part of me does empathise. Not only is he clinging on to his cultural identity (which at times is not really much of an excuse for his actions and words I know) but he has felt immense pain and despair when he discovered he was born a girl. It more or less shattered what he believed and what he held very near and dear in him. TL:DR, he knows what the pain and inner suffering is like and doesn't want the same for his child. That been said, *SPOILERS* when Topa is saved by Bortus and Kelly from being tortured to near death, Klydon sees the error of his ways, accepts his daughter fully and sheds his bigotry and hate. All of his pain has been replaced by love for his daughter, his family and even his home on The Orville. He even buries the hatchet with Kelly and accepts her as a friend.
@@Bartman954 I have a parent like Klyden. I take a dim view of parents like Klyden. I, to, empathize with the abuse he suffered at the hands of the Moclan system, but that does not excuse the abuse they perpetuated on Topa. Or Bortus. Or the heterosexual Moclan he very nearly got killed.
If the most unrealistic thing Star Trek ever showed was San Francisco NIMBYs allowing construction on the Marin Headlands, the most unrealistic thing about the Orville is that a parent like Klyden would *ever* admit they were even a little wrong
@@pjlusk7774 likewise with my parents. My mother suffered abuse as a kid and it passed down onto me to the point I refuse to have kids because I made the choice to stop generational parental abuse. (I have a nephew and niece and swore I would never raise my voice or lay a finger on them)
Klyden could've stopped at the start and fully accepted his daughter from the start but alas his inner torment rise to the surface and in his mind he thought he could "spare" the pain that Topa would endure. At the very least I can see somewhat his intentions and he never used violence against his kid. (unlike what I suffered if I did anything effeminate which sucks since I'm a cis straight male, I occasionally vibe as a girl and like to wear girl clothing, wear makeup, got my ears pierced, etc which enrages my family and have practically disowned them because of that fact) So yeah, Klyden is very much in the wrong but his actions do have some level of understanding. Antagonist: yes, pure evil villain, no.
He's so good because you can kind of understand where he's coming from, even if you don't agree with him.
Bro the moment i read Chad Coleman's name, i cannot unhear Coach from Left 4 Dead 2 💀
People saying this is a trans episode but isn't it really a reverse trans episode? The child was forcibly transitioned by her parents for their ideology and then wanted to return to how she was before the procedure.
Well, technically yes, but the dynamics and substance are the same as with trans people.
In the sense that she goes against her society to conform to her true gender, and people around her, including her parents, have to decide wether they want to accept it.
As a conservative person that doesn't really support trans(as in people chose to be trans for pleasure instead of those who truly need) this is quite a complicated discussion.
With the description you said, I think it relates more to what some interex people experience with the doctors or parents choosing their sex for them and performing operation on the kid and raising them as that sex only for them to grow up and realize that that isn't who they are.
Yes it's something rare these days talking about "transition" regret is forbidden because a child mutilating themselves can not be wrong
@@doublea8462treading in dangerous waters there lol intersex only matters when they can be used as someone else's argument.
Never thought I'd see an actual decently written trans debate in scifi from start trek oh wait
They did a pretty good one with the Enby species in TNG.
@@SchneeflockeMonsoon to be fair your right but all the tines sense they've some how bungled it even enterprise didn't do a good job ut wasn't a dig at discovery I'm not a retarded boomer out here boomer posting
I think its very staw manish. I don't remember it being explained why Moclins hate their females or why they chose to be a single gender species. Not even in season 1. There's no flash back. There's no explanation. I also remember they had a guest, a really tall mocklin that likes females. He got arrested and we never saw him again. Its not just about being trans. Its that for whatever reason, they don't like their females.
@@ixiahj it could just be a throw away comment that they never expected to take seriously we have to remember they were expecting orville to only have 1 season so there might not be a plan or arching story such as with DS9 and the dominion war, voyager and returning home etc this might be the start of it and they'll go on to explain the points you have stated in the next season or 2 as to why the mochlans are like this but I'll also concede they might not because its very rare to get that level of cohesive story telling from sci fi shows now for some reason
@@ixiahj They believe that being female is a curse and a detriment to the Moclan society in general.
I imagine this scene was very impactful for intersex individuals who (at least here in the us) still have surgery done on their as infants all the time, inorder to “make them fit” either male or female.
Yeah the difference being topa was a girl to start with not someone with mental delusions
@@PlagueRunnerThere it is, took a moment for the uneducated to rear their ugly head.
Many people consider this a trans allegory (Even the main writer of the show Seth macfarlane) because of the obvious, but I’ll try to explain it to people who ever pass by your comment because I know you people don’t like facts and don’t change you mind through it.
The Moclan has for centuries had it deeply imbedded into their culture that all female children have to forcefully change their gender to male to “fit into society” so this is the status quo.
And I’m making the assumption that since they have done it for centuries that it has gotten to the point where the body doesn’t work as female since the intervention was so early that the brain doesn’t have time to process that they were a women.
So to her, it’s normal and the status quo to be male. And even with all the smack talk of the female gender in their culture. She wants to revert back to the female sex because that’s what she wants and her brain identifies with.
Edit: And if you try to make the case that she was born female and her brain neurons therefore correspond to being a female.. Then I’ll let you know right now that theres studies researching this phenomenon on transgendered people and many of them have their mind set to the gender they want to reasigne too.
Yeah it’s a good trans allegory, but the most fitting analogy based on how the Moclan species works is an intersex person (because females are rarely born and not necessarily part of the reproductive process. The ultimate takeaway is to let children decide for themselves what they want for their bodies and show them appropriate care and compassion when they say something isn’t right. Whether it’s a kid that’s intersex, or a kid born in a body opposite to the gender they have internally. Believe and trust them, even if it’s hard to hear or not what you wanted for them.
@@PlagueRunnerintersex is not a mental delusions. Intersex people are born with both aspects of sex.
@@candicefrost4561 I wouldn't call it a good trans allegory if anything it's a good detransitioner allegory more so for those where it was forced on them by what I can only describe as evil parents at a young age
Why is The Orville the best Sci Fi series in 25 years?!?! Because, it took what it learned from Star Trek, and improved upon it to make a brilliant show!!!
The Orville set out to be a spoof, and to entertain in spite of the risk of giving offense. Trek and Wars have abandoned the idea of entertaining in favor of preaching
The only counter point I make is that she was born Female and then was Force Sex Changed to Male in Season one as Claire pointed out Restoring her to original but this is What Star Trek now The Orville does Wonderfully it makes us all see the Problem with a fresh perspective.
It makes this a rather good allegory for those who are forced to be trend by their parents
@@michaelkehathat implies people are being forced to be trans. Nobody is being forced to be trans. You are who you are. You don't have to like transsexuality or be trans or part of some gay pedophillic conspiracy to respect trans people. And to be perfectly honest whenever I see people venerate this arc from a conservative angle it makes me sick, because this isn't at all saying that people are forced to be trans in society today. If you genuinely believe people are forced to be trans in society today, then I have a bridge to sell you. Maybe some dick pills too. Whatever Infowars is hocking anyway.
@@michaelkehano one forces kids to transition. You are under the assumption that a trans person is a choice. They are born that way and want to be recognized as the gender they identify with. I hope you've actually watched the orville or star trek in general to understand problems in society.
@@michaelkeha Exactly, the issue is that parents and societal norms and culture try to decide what's best for people, such as the trend that is a purely binary and hard-set gender/sex scale, and we instead need to respect their identity and support them!
Blesson Yates is a child actor who portrayed Topa, the son of Bortus and Klyden, in the second season of The Orville. For the third season, the role was taken by Imani Pullum and Topa was return to the right gender, which was girl ☺
Also, Didn’t Klyden already leave Bortus? That doesn’t sound like a threat when they’re divorced. (At this point in time.)
They aren't divorced Klyden did try to divorce him but the captain didn't allow it to happen since in there Culture to divorce is to stab there partner in the chest and let him die but to leave one's partner alive is shameful
Oh. Ok.
Well I mean, he could just done a REGULAR divorce.
@@jeremydale4548 I mean he could but he does it the way of his people
@@jeremydale4548 On Moclus, the regular method of divorce is a sin to them. That's why.
"I will leave you, and I will not even give you the dignity of the sword"
That's what this line was referring to, the "Moclan divorce"
Which is super weird if I'm reading the context right. Klyden will not stay with Bortus but they will still technically still be legally married.
It's either seen as a punishment to Bortus, or as an open-ended way to eventually come back if Klyden changes his mind.
Which is fucked up because Bortus tries to be a good dad, and their was that weird-ness/tense between Bortus and Kelly where Topa might have had a fully supportive family putting Topa first before all else, and then the end of the episode makes that seem completely false when Klyden comes back
Form what I gathered, this species is able to give birth or lay an egg with a female or male parts helping but there are females and males. So what I'm hearing females and males can lay eggs
Weird.
@JW-do2wc it's science fiction it's gonna be weird
Maybe only males lay eggs.
@@codename495I assumed they were considered genetically weaker due to not being capable of breeding with males of their species and having less inherent muscle mass. Or that the species evolved pass the need for different genders and gave to a single gender that's capable of reproducing. Either that or it was like the Ferengi and then at some point in time there was a massive cultural shift from a matriarchy to a patriarchy but I feel like if it was that they would have directly referenced it and based off of the biological and cultural traits we have seen I would find the idea of out evolving the need for different Sexes and females essentially being the equivalent of a outdated operation that's useless in their society.
@@codename495moclans are a singlegendered spiecies, but there happens a female once in 100 000 cases
Klyden really can't hear how bullshit his argument is?
It's against my peoples laws. Well, klyden, your not on moclus and moclus law doesn't apply to space.
He doesn't understand. You've made it abundantly clear to her, and you took that choice from her as a baby.
I'll leave you, bortus, if you choose our son over my wishes. Choosing her over you seems like the right choice, klyden, because you're demanding Bortus abandon his daughter to please you.
Klyden is a monster here…in short time he’ll be clapping “Hooray! Hooray for you!”
Klyden is dealing with the fact that he didnt get the choice, and cultural indoctrination. He isnt right he but i get his feelings towards the situation
It's a complicated situation. And Klyden has a TON of baggage regarding the situation.
He is not a monster he is afraid he believes he is acting in the best interests of topa even if he isn't
He also went through the same issue, except he had nobody to support him.
No, Klyden is simply self-hating and insecure.
Klyden was born female and had his sex changed surgically by his fathers, who explained to him that they did what they had to do to protect him. As a result, he's convinced that if Topa refuses to be male, it means either that Topa has a death wish or that he could've done something about his own condition and didn't because of fear.
Btw. Topa wants to become a Union Ship Captain. And this would make such an excellent spin off series bc one, theres never been a female moclan in the Union.
And 2: theres never been a female Moclan Union Captain. So seeing her rise to this rank against a whole lot of odds would be amazing.
Or a good epilogue.
Bortus you are such a good dad, he understands and hears Topa, he loves his child no matter the gender he just wants her to be happy
Which is how,it should be
Feel like a lot of intersex people can also connect with it. I am sorry for everyone were the parents forced a gender onto u and a surgery that probably affected most intersex peoples health in a negative way. Not intersex myself, but the fact that in most of these cases, no one considered how it will affect the body during puberty and that coming from doctors is truly disturbing. Stay safe everyone and take care. ❤
This seems incorrect and correct me if I'm wrong but this isnt how it it. Intersex people still present strongly as one sex over the other by way that not intersex person has both complete reproducing organs, i.e. it's never possible to get yourself pregnant. They have working male or female parts. Not both.
A part of me wonders how Klyden’s own pain and shame is pushing him to be this prejudiced.
Whats there to wonder about? People internalize their own insecurities and they manifest into predjudice.
I'm so glad that they had the doctor say "under normal circumstances, I couldn't do this until she was an adult."
They actually acknowledged the medical reality of altering a childs biology and chemistry before they're done hormonally developing.
I'm this case there just restoring factory settings and undoing a injustice
They were talking Psychological factors.
Which is a topic of discussion we should realllllllly be having more with some parents and trans youth.
Star Trek Lower Decks and The Orville are two shows that embody what ØG Star Trek fans want. Societal issues that are placed in well written and well acted shows! Rocky starts for both but they have grown..
As a life long fan of star truk I’ll agree on the Orville but lower decks in my personal opinion is a spit in the face of trek
IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO CHOICE. Why is it okay to do this to a BABY who cannot consent, but an ADULT asking for this, who has understood ALL of the consequences, has the RIGHT to decide for themselves, but people will shout them down for not “thinking it through” or “understanding the situation”. Or being “too young.” The RIGHT to self determination.
I need to stop watching this clips before I complete spoil season 3 for myself but their just too damn good! Curse and Bless you Seth Mcfarlane
I saw an interview of Seth were he was asked along the lines of why he sticks voice over characters so such and he said just enough to keep the demons at bay. I bring this us as the reason why we don’t see him serious scenes like this. He could be the best drama actor in recent memory he just choses not to and he has every right to but man are we missing out on something special.
I feel like this might be Seth MacFarlane's apology for how they handled the trans topoc in Family Guy.
And just a lot of latter Family Guy in general.
Gotta make what you make
This episode's plot is more timely now than ever before. Society wants to decide what children are and should be rather than letting them decide for themselves. It's their lives, not ours. A child should not have to compromise on who they believe they are as a person just so they can appease a society who refuses to let them be themselves.
You would think that simply allowing these people to live life as they want and to be happy is an easy enough thing to do. But real life and this episode show us that there's more to it than that, and it's up to all of us to be better and more understanding of those who choose to be different.
I wanna give kudos to Seth and the Orville team. There was a time when Star Trek was at the forefront of acknowledging and confronting timely societal issues through their shows but it seems it was the Orville that had the balls to tackle trans issues specifically.
I've watched Klyden evolve through the two series and I've just finished "A Tale of Two Topas" today and I can't help but say Klyden can go eff himself. Telling his baby girl he wished she had never been born. Bortus won Best Dad Ever award when he immediately told his little girl, "Listen very closely to me. You are perfect." Bortus is my hero. He tried and tried to make that marriage work and he's the best Dad ever.
I like how Bortus pulls down his uniform top a la Riker and Picard.
This made me cry.
Damn I wish I had watched this show sooner. Never thought I'd see something like from someone like Seth MacFarlane. Hope to see more like this
Something tells me Seth isn't responsible for the transphobic writing on Family Guy, he just had to roll with it because the network said so.
@@Kobold_GreenSeth hasn’t written for family guy in years. And even when he did, he didn’t write for them nearly as much as people think. He exists only as a voice actor now for the show.
Damn, I screamed "She was a baby!!" in unison with Kelly
There's probably a good reason Union law only requires the consent of one parent...
This is literally how coming out Trans is like and people not accepting or understanding and addressing it. I love it so much. As a trans man, this deadass is exactly how it is for Topa as it is for me. Being born female and WANTING to be male, but people not accepting it. It's deadass a role reversal and I LOVE THIS. It's the role reversal of Topa wanting to stay the gender she was born as and not being allowed to and loving her unconditionally. Now imagine this, but replace Topa as wanting to become male and not being allowed to and loving him unconditionally for it.
IT'S THE SAME THING. I love this. I love Bortus and Klyden for it.
The situation above isn’t someone being weird and wanting to be accepted by everyone. It’s the mutilation of a child and people used to be executed for that stuff
It isn't the same thing. One is subordinating yourself to God and/or nature, the other is elevating yourself above them.
It also parallels how intersex babies are treated.
@@DestructoCopter The fact that you describe trans people as "being weird" invalidates any opinion you had on the matter.
Key difference though.
One is about undoing bodily mutilation, the other is about requesting it.
Not gonna weigh in on the morality, just pointing out the reality.
I love how the doctor admits this is a special case, and that normally: you wait until the person has reached adulthood and their brain has finished developing so they can make an informed decision.
I wish more people understood why that’s such a hurdle (of many) to our modern “medicine” that makes this issue so hard to overcome.
That's why transkids don't undergo surgery until 18.
@@lizd2943
Sometimes. Sometimes they feel rushed into it. Sometimes before they’re truly sure. That might just be the saddest part of all.
@@SchneeflockeMonsoon That's why the process is designed to take the time to make sure.
@@SchneeflockeMonsoon that`s why the process is extremely long and requires therapy
@@SchneeflockeMonsoon no like literally, transgender children do not have surgery. it's a made up problem, nobody under 18 is going through SRS. if you want a more accurate comparison to this situation, intersex people are very often forcibly assigned a gender at birth and have surgery done on them without consent, which can lead to a lot of these same identity and hormonal issues down the line.
I've not seen the orville but this feels like it tackles one of star trek's most underrated strengths, that being the philosophical and moral dilemmas presented in certain episodes and the willingness to talk about issues even somewhat adjacent to what's being dealt with today.
The fact that only yourself can choose who you are and no one else, not even your parents, it's such a powerful message ❤
This is the greatest show ever and we deserve way more seasons
This show is great went from a star trek parody to a great successor
well, maybe it's just me but i like bortus
Space faring spiritual successor to M A S H
God I love mash
MASH, along with B99 and West Wing are essentially trek shows on Earth
There was one planet in star trek the next generation, where it was illegal to be male or female, and those who did, got the equivalency of a lobotomy. But I think this is a better show talking about gender rights, than even star trek.
It was the Jenai, a androgynous race that shunned any that chose to live as either gender...
@@caronstout354 thank you!
It just called the issue down the middle instead of taking one side from what you described
Tbh this whole arc reminded me of the horrors of the John/Joan experiment.
I found it weird how some saw this as an anti-trans sentiment.
I see it as the opposite. It's against the idea of forcing a gender on another person who may not fit that role.
I think it’s cool how so many people interpret the scene, and the dialogues that are opened.
You’re exactly right. I think the cast even confirmed this. The problem is, a lot of people genuinely believe the Moclun ideology is real. Even if that was the case, Bortus made it very clear he’s not against Trans; he stated he wants Toppa to be free to decode
@@matthewvollmer2066 I think it's also because Seth has arguably gotten it wrong in the past, and more likely because some people just don't like the guy for whatever reason.
I have very little information but i understand that their species have only one gender and their culture and beliefs surrounds this. Not only that, its their biological nature. So for her to be a gender thats completely different is unheard of.
Personally this is an unbelievably difficult discussion. The parents wants whats best for their child and unfortunately it doesn't always justify what they have to do. I can't be mad at their decision to change the nature of their daughter because i think its because they're looking after her future. They know the dangers of discrimination she'll face against her entire people. Now, the situation they have is that their daughter discovered it and now must decide whether or not to support their child or completely abandon her (in the sense her never being her true self).
What an awsome show.
Props to the actor that plays Klyden.
1:38 - 1:49
Damn the writing of this show is insanely underrated
I think Klyden is just jealous that Topa has acceptance and support while he didn't.
Klyden sounds like my dad, only less crying.
I will not give you the dignity of the sword damn
This show was better than most current star trek shows
reminds me a lot of what i heard growing up trans, bortus is an absolute legend.
Moral of the story. Leave children alone and dont let them have a sex change
It's clearly the opposite, they are letting her do the change.
You dont have much media literacy, do you Paul?
This is honestly the best take on the consequences of being forced to transition
Honestly, I really think this show understands the Trans stuff better than most of us.
Anyone who says a parent should not force a child to be trans should realize that parents don’t force their kids to be trans it’s up to the child. If there are parents that do force their kid to be trans then it is a very rare occurrence
Oh it’s up to the child? What about the thousands of years of human history where this insanity wasn’t a thing until people like you came along
0:14 itd be neat if they actually typed what they were told to write.
Bortus stands and does the Picard Manuver
I'm grateful that someone is willing to provide a voice for reason to support those in society that would otherwise have no support. As an ally, if you read this, you matter. Your life has meaning. You are a human, and I support you.
Are you kidding? Trans people have gotten nothing but support the last decade. The media, corporations, government, schools etc. Almost all support these trans ideologies. In fact, it's so supported that anyone who even slightly disagrees, are called big ots. Even though their disagreements are based on biological facts.
Social media sites like Facebook, Pinterest, Reddit, Tik Tok, ( And until recently) Twitter would suspend or ban you for disagreeing or showing support for facts. They call it 'hate speech' for logical and factual discussions or respectful disagreements.
What if a Nazi reads this? Lol
You should probably make a specific point instead of “I support you,” that’s kinda worhtless
This is such a well written trans story in which technically it is a detransition, cuz Topa was forcibly transitioned, but the beats of it is so parallel to a kid coming out as trans.
"I know they basically graped her with transition, but I find trans kids inspiring so there's still a positive light to it"
This is like me saying that slavery was ultimately a good thing because it physically contributed to the economy. Just... ignoring all the damage done, huh?
Klyden acts more like a woman than most women.
The irony in that statement hits hard when you learn that Klyden was born Female.
@@KatonNeko, quite right. Further proof, were any required, that gender reassignment surgery doesn't alter personality. Klyden is biologically male by virtue of a medical procedure, but he's still the same person he was born to be. The doctor didn't change who he is.
I thought the trans allegory was pretty clear but judging by comments, obviously not.
Lots of people ignoring the fact that Topa is literally (AMAB) Assigned Male at Birth by Moclan society. Then wants to transition as she does not see herself as male.
Look, my sister did the same, but remember, I had a brother before and to just say she is my sister after 10 years. It's too much to take in for a short time. To me, when she told us this, to me I felt that my brother was destroyed. I loved my brother he was my best friend and a father figure. It took time but I had to get to know my new sister. And after 5 years, I'm happy for her. Just remember, this takes time, your before identity was loved, but also give us time to moarn our loss, and then to come to your new identity.
The thing is, the brother you thought you knew was always your sister; she was just forced to wear a mask all that time. She was always your sister, and the core of her being never actually changed. All she did was stop wearing a mask.
@@rekkariley652 Sorry you feel that way, but I and my family have already worked this out in our own culture way. We all love our New sister. But she even thought that we should all say goodbye to who he was. And together we came to know her, and love her.
@@amz8974 “I’m sorry you feel that way”? Really, dude?
I told you the truth. Not my “feelings.” Your sister didn’t suddenly “become trans.” She always was.
Always.
There’s literally NO ONE TO MOURN, because your sister was ALWAYS THERE. She’s literally the same damn person!
Well, like I said. We have done what we ALL agreed to to how WE did this. Everyone has there own processes. So if you want to fight, then sorry but I won't be a part of that.
@@amz8974 What makes you think this is a fight? You’re awfully defensive.
This is not an “anti trans episode” it is strongly pro trans. There are probably Less than 2 parents who “forced” a kid to become trans. When a parent “allows” the child to transition it’s because the child “wants”to be a girl or boy and if they don’t transition it may have harmful consequences on the child
>probably less than 2 parents
I'm laughing like the bald guy from Pawn Shop right now. You're the same kind of person to deny child trafficking because it would be inconvenient for your politics to acknowledge that it was happening at all, effectively trading those children's lives for your own sense of emotional well-being. Nobody cares what you think, thought-trash. No trans kids.
Klyden was born female
Which just shows how idiotic dogmatic agendas are
This is sort of like the X-Men, where it can represent a number of groups. I can see both trans and intersex folks seeing themselves. Though I believe intersex people aren't as acknowledged in stories.
"The consent of at least 1 parent. Doesnt require both"
That is literally the most brain dead law i have ever heard. Imagine for a moment you as a mother have 0 say in the upbringing of your son just because he always happens to agree with his father. Or even worse. The other parent agrees with anything for the child out of spite to the other parent. Oooor if some manipulative person happens to convince only 1 parent? Maybe they even choose a stupid parent? Theres soooo many problems here
There's also a lot of problems with the consent of both parents. It's bad either way
They also Needed the doctors permission
@@jplegend98 who cares what they have to say
Welcome to the real world, there are actual laws in place that do that. One for example is that a parent can legally marry off their underaged child in a couple states, sometimes with a judge agreeing.
The doctor was advanced and knowledgeable enough to not only understand human medicine but to be able to fix the sexual and biological issues of another sentient species. That is one mighty doctor
Well they predicted the future of what’s happening right now
No with this child there restoring what was taken they even say it in the clip
They're unintentionally anti-trans😂.
"Returning back to what nature made" 😂😂😂
When two civilizations come in contact it is never a good idea to impose their values on each other it will always lead to a clash. No matter how bizarre or outright inhumane it may seem these customs and values are part of their civilization which have flown through generations and to impose your values onto them and expect that they should change for you is very human thing which is not for so many reasons is not a good value.
We must always remember if someone or something does anything wrong it is not just others or something that is wronged they also wrong themselves or it. And that will ultimately lead to their or its end. If they don't then it is to be inferred that although it may seem wrong but there might be something right in it for them or it if not for us.
We have examples over examples of religion, ideology, politics and cultural wars going non stop only because one individual or group want to impose their value onto others. And anyways as a human civilization we shouldn't think we are better than others, since the rise of our civilization we have caused extinction of various others human and non human.
Diversity in values is as important as it is of ethnicity and culture.
"Meet me in the middle" says the unjust man, you take a step forward he takes a step back. "Meet me in the middle" says the unjust man.
When the belief is that someone is worth less because of who they are, it is fundamentally at odds with any notion of diversity.
your posit only works if the differing cultures are separate and never overlap. the second contact is made one or both must adjust. the process of adjustment is never clean and a comparison of values is unavoidable and those values will be ranked. not all views are of equal value nor is every culture of equal value, the lesser will fade the stronger rise this is the natural process. the closer they are to one another the more they will meld into a new view with aspects of both, but contact between cultures will leave both changed. you can't stop it and trying just causes stagnation and eventual collapse and conquest. diversity is at best a goal, at worst a fatal flaw that will tear your culture apart as the new equilibrium is found. as a simple example blasphemy laws are abhorrent to western civilization akin to allowing mass murder. in some nations it is not just accepted but expected for people to form mobs and kill the heretic. these two values can not exist side by side in the same society. nor can laws condemning gays to death stand beside laws allowing gay marriage. only one of each can stand the others must get thrown away with in the singular society, to try otherwise is to invite failure.
what if their custom is to hand over their women as gifts? would you hand over your wife and daughter? we must respect other cultures but we must also draw a line on basic morals regardless of who gets offended. denying Topa's femininity was driving her to depression and suicide. her life was on the line and her people's culture demanded she suffers as her mother did. that is not cultural disagreement, that is child abuse and oppression, women deserve equal rights and respect.
@@JayJayM57 down side is if you get together 100 random people you will have 100 different versions of morals and ethics with no true overlap between them. what is abuse to you is a Tuesday morning to others. this leads me to disagree other cultures are not deserving of respect solely because they exist. they must earn my respect by actions. if they behave in a way I can respect then they have it. if they murder their daughters for showing an ankle as an example, no they will not get my respect because their acts are not worthy of it.
@@kertagin1 Agreed, I generally perceive more cultures as a good thing but I get annoyed at the people who want to ignore immorality and call it different cultures. I have absorbed parts of other parts of people's cultures like taking my shoes at the door to keep the house clean, changing my manner of talking to not be considered aggressive and loud, and I stop using my cultural greetings as others may view them as improper( male and female kiss on the cheeks, males and males hug). but if you have child marriage, we have a problem.
This show is a PERFECT example of how would we humans react and behave if we finally reached for the stars and met other species. Be it for single sex species, species who don't look like us or even species who have different ideologies from us. Are we going to respect their culture and beliefs or are we just going to be stubborn and force our human ideologies on other species.
How it should be. Both sides presented, neutral stance, let the audience decide.
But, while Topa is xenos. There's no take backsies in real life for baseline humans. Makes this even more harder considering that this and the tng episode might be cited as see its easy. Not without almost geneforging the entire genome.
This was a better scene than the way star trek does it. Every new species thats advanced respects pronouns in star trek and they never miss a chance to hamfistedly point it out
Just remember folks, they’re lucky to live in the future where such intensive surgery can be done and undone with no complication. We do not have that luxury. Such a process tends to be irreversible, at least currently. You only have one life, so treat it with care.
Can’t believe I slept on this show. McFarlane desperately wanted to write Star Trek and he had to get his foot in the door by calling it a parody.
The Y chromosome is shrinking, a couple billion years men won't exist regardless of internal identity. Asari from Mass effect are one example. But there is also an all female lizard species in real life. Moclus society itself is inevitably going extinct, and Klyden still adheres to it...if I were a father, I'd punch him for one fight, and kick him for all future fights.
Well yes and no it’s impossible as of now to procreate without a male
Asari actually reproduce asexually so in all technically they don’t need a mate and are completely different
Almost all living life forms needs a counter gender or reproduction is done via oneself
Humans aren’t in the latter so another gender will exist at this time
This is false. Just because the Y chromosome may disappear (and there is no reason to think it will do so) does not mean that men will cease to exist. That's not how it works. It will just be another chromosome that will determine whether or not a fetus will develop into a male or female.
There is already a species of rodent that does just that. They lost their Y chromosome but they still have both males and females. It's just that XX will produce females and XO will produce males. The reason this is is because genes on the Y chromosome that determined sex was absorbed into another chromosome. So they still have all the genes necessary to produce males, they just don't require a Y chromosome to do it.
The second klyden said he will leave bortus, bortus' choice became very simple because Klyden took himself out of the picture
People really need to watch the whole series to understand this scene. It’s not supporting trans people or gender surgery as Topa was originally a female and she wants to go back to her original gender. It’s literally against those ideals of changing your body as it shows the horrible effects it can have. So stop making this argument that it’s pro trans.
My guy this is a real thing that happens in our world lol the doctors decided topas gender and now she wants the other option, thats trans af lol
@@voidpriest4659Lookit that, _the doctors that were pro-trans _*_forced_*_ the surgery on the child._
It's almost as if we've come full circle, trans people are no longer "oppressed," and they are literally so free to do as they wish that it ruins the lives of children.
This is restoring what was taken. It is undoing a robbery
Not in Texas
This show went from comedy to serious drama in warp speed.
I think Topa is the first detransitioner character on tv
Thank you for making our point.
It hurts to see in the comments how many people watched this episode and *somehow* got an anti-trans message from it. It's not trying to say "kids are being forced to be trans and that's bad and we shouldn't be trying to talk about gender to kids", it's saying "parents and the government ignoring how kids feel to impose what they believe to be 'normal' on them is bad". Nobody needs to hear the message "It's wrong to force your children to transition" because that's a fucking myth spread by people who think they know best how to raise everybody else's children. Seriously, it always amazes me how conservatives can watch a show that has so many plainly progressive messages like this or Star Trek and somehow twist what they're seeing into thinking it's in support of exactly what it's saying is bad. It's like the people that watch Star Trek and think it's about the importance of having a strong military and a single strong, wise leader to make the important decisions.
how many trans people do you think made this episode? I'm not entirely sure the show isn't trying to push anti trans messaging
@@DarynLuna It's having the conversation. That's what scifi does. It's having the conversation in order to get a subject out in the open that is too hot button to address in any other reasonable way. If you're firmly partisan on one side or the other having the discussion will feel like siding against you because talking points for both sides are being presented. That's a you problem, not a show problem.
@@hagamapama you are on point. The show is airing the issue out and it is more complicated than right or wrong
@@SlideIX Nah. There's just right and wrong. If a child is behaving abnormally, it should be addressed not covered up. Abnormal is not normal. It's the definition.
Just recently two diffrent parents were caught on video coaching thier "trans child" through the interview. So yes forcing transition does happen. A teacher was caught telling her class if they were not 100% comfortable with their body they were in fact trans. How many kids going thru puberty are 100% comfortable with their body? Ever !? When it is illegal to allow a child to get a tattoo but you are going to allow them to decide to permenantly mutilate themselves. Hell last year she wanted to be a pony! Cut off her hand/feet and sew on hooves? Medical fact , 97% of minors in gender confusion grow out of it as they mature. But once you have carved them up there is no going back.
Trans allegory but technically not trans, definitely a unique situation
I hear Michael Dorn???
I love Kelly's reaction to this
I think that it's great the Orville covers such issues, but I also scoff at the hypocrisy of anti-ST:D Orville folks. Try to be consistent, and it's not as if Orville writing or acting is all that better than the other, now that I've watched Orville firsthand.
Like with Rick and Morty the fandom is one of the reasons why I haven't gotten into orville.
ST D is garbage. STD is about right.
There aliens and that child was originally female to begin with there society is hyper masculine because that’s just how there society evolved maybe though trauma maybe though policy that created a downward spiral either way it’s not even transgender she was a girl is a girl and wants to be a girl her society just won’t let it happen because they genuinely hate women it’s good scifi and it’s a social structure I haven’t really seen before in society yea there are places that hate women or do not see them as equals but to completely try and genocide a gender it’s wacky but in a sci-fi show it probs would be possible I mean you have mysandrist who genuinely wish for a world where man don’t need to exist and mysoginist who wish for the oppersite due to trauma and mistrust this just takes it to the logical extreme
You don’t like this Jeb because you can’t enjoy anything that shows a different world to your own even if it’s fantasy or sci fi your the same type of person who wants things to be realistic in fantasy you can watch a dragon but a black women being queen or a gay man in fantasy is too unrealistic to the times which is dumb it’s sci fi fantasy stop assuming everything has to be made to your specific political image just enjoy tv or don’t watch this show it’s that simply your the type of guy who goes around and cancels shit you don’t like lmao
They kinda presented it in a weird way cause you know, she was originally female so shes not trans if she reverted to her original gender. They are making fun of the whole argument that kids are not mature to make enough to make such a decision but she was forced against her will to change genders its just weird and make no sense unless they presenting the alien as a hypocrite or they are against trans given the context.
Alot of people in the comments seem to be ignoring the fact that it should be Topa's choice and no one elses "It's about time we all stop trying to decide what she is, shut up, and let her tell us".
The problem is that a lot of people don’t properly understand what they are getting into, now without knowing how moclans mentally mature we can’t say, but this is how it is, plus topas is at the ground zero of a political tie
A great cautionary tale for why we should not be transitioning children. Allow them to discover who they are after their bodies and minds have fully developed, then, and only then, correct any disparities between mind and body.
It's more so don't impose your own beliefs on someone before they can fully comprehend the consequences of your will and the choices that they have.
If a child is questioning their gender and they don’t think it matches their sex they should go on hormone blockers which pretty much puts puberty on pause and completely reversible . I wish my parents allowed me to go on hormone blockers because now permanent changes have been done to my body that I have to struggle with every single day of my life and pay thousands to have altered to allow me to actually recognise myself in the mirror as myself where I could’ve been saved from that mental anguish if I was put on some simple harmless medication
Actually, I think puberty blockers are a better option, not only will they save your kid the agony of going through the wrong puberty if they are trans, they are also completely reversible if your kid isn't trans.
Seriously people. Talk to your doctors, and listen to your kids. Give them the time and means to discover themselves and find what makes them happy. Save them from the torture of going through the wrong puberty if you can and respect the name and pronouns your kid asks for. I get that seeing your kid change can be incredibly hard, but the joy that they'll have if allowed to be who they are will be worth it.
@@legendswarble2845 I wish I didn’t need to mention this but people will latch onto this if I don’t .children can only go on hormone blockers if they request it They cannot be forced onto in most countries there is a massive rigourous path you have to go down to get put on hormone blockers. There has been more cases of transgender individuals being murdered than children being forced on hormone blockers without their permission
@@oreolaw9911 Absolutely. Part of what slightly muddles the metaphor the Orville was going for is that Topa is both intersex and transgender and, at least in the US many intersex infants are forced into sex reasignment surgeries to be either male or female regardless of who that child might turn out to be inside, because that society doesn't respect the validity of existence outside of a binary.
So, that part of her story comes from the show attempting to tackle that issue and specifically where it intersects with intersex kids who were forcibly changed and how they would rather be, thus aligning them with the transgender experience as well.
It's a very specific occurrence that they chose to tackle, but as a trans person who is not intersex, I think they handled it well.
There are so many things both wrong and right here, but mostly wrong.
I love the fact that this is a girl who was forcibly modified into something she wasn’t trying to turn back into what she was born as. How many kids are going to be trying to do the same in 10-20 years after the gender identity stuff right now and won’t be able to? We are who we are and what we are. Teaching our kids to love who they are should be so much more important and valuable than telling them that if they aren’t good enough, interesting enough, or that if they don’t like something they can get rid of it or change it entirely. Life isn’t about trying to have perfect happiness all the time. It’s about dealing with the problems and adversities, overcoming them, and finding real contentment and happiness despite those problems.
I feel like you're taking the opposite away than the writers intended.
@@DAndyLord a girl that was forcibly changed into a boy because of misguided gender ideas being changed back into a girl, restoring her to who she was. Pretty sure that I haven’t missed anything.
@Explain the fun away that’s your opinion, but considering the fact that Topa was forcibly changed into something she wasn’t and wants to be turned back to the way she was born, sounds like I got at least a few things right.
@Explain the fun away
If your are hearing voices in head please seek mental health help as soon as possible.
if this is your take away then i feel so damn sorry for you.
Definitely a brilliant commentary.
"He is a child he does not know enough to make these decisions!"
"How do you not see the hypocrisy there?!"
There isnt any. They are adults. They DO have enough to make those decisions for THEIR child. This goes faaaar beyond just her and their feelings. She will unironically be 100% ostracized and be unable to interact with her own race. How is that not an important factor?
There is always the females Moclans but I think she doesn’t care. Considering how they treat her already I don’t believe she cares about interacting withy he makes Moclans
Because it wasn’t Her choice.
@@BrowncoatGofAZ children are not fully prepared to make choices for themselves in every situation. This is why military conscription, sexual consent, medicinal wellness, and other things are not choices children are able to make.
Damn, as soon as I remember that Klyden used to be female too, I feel sad for him. He's basically what Topa might have become with enough time and Moclan culture.