I think my grandpa was in one of your pictures at the start. I have his hemp rope from the early 50s. Still use it for guiding trees down. It does last a damn long time at very least.
"The leader must not fall" - general rule back then "Get the silk rope - it's under the bed" - Spencer Tracy (more or less) from "The Mountain". If you've not watched this 1956 classic do so. Spencer plays a humble Swiss goat herder who reveals his bad-ass mountain guide past when the going gets tough. Great Easter Eggs from the riggers and guides hired for the production.
I found a piece of manilla rope that had been left in the project cave I work in. This area was damp and muddy. Originally much of the cave was rigged with Goldline (this is the project cave I was talking with you about a couple of years ago). Most likely it had been there since the 50s. It looked perfect but when I touched it it had essentially turned to jelly, it was a perfect cast of the rope but had no structural integrity left at all.
OK Ryan I have one for you. Since you mentioned that the hemp rope might only be good enough to tie your horse up with, (see I was paying attention) how about getting some actual rope used for equines, such as a lead rope? I have had many of my horses break them when tied off when they get agitated so it might be interesting for funs sake to find out how tough they actually are. Thanks again.
I do shibari suspension for 10 years. Some notes: - single double line is not enough to hold person! Basic is 3 double lines, including supporting knots! - jute under load is really sensitive how you tie it. It does not like small knots and tight bends. It has something to do with zero elasticity, inner strands in tight bend are under heavier load than outer strands. -for friction under load, always tie over carabiner to get lower friction. Rope over rope friction will strip away strands, and cause wear much faster. - do not put pressure on bight - much better is to use flax or hemp rope for main suspension lines. Those are much stronger and way more wear resistant. Keep jute for body contact to get better grip with body. If you want to follow this rabbit hole, I suggest Bruce Esinem's channel. He did a lot of load testing on shibari ropes.
If you were to test shibari rope then you should consider a few points: -Cheap rope sometimes has no core -Ropes are often doubled up to reduce presasure on the skin -There are different materials being used While yes it would be funny if you just brake them like normal rope, it'd also be interessting to see them tested with intended use in mind.
Meh, I’d prefer he save his time and not bother going down that path. There’s still plenty of questions to be explored within the spaces he’s already covering. Variance in natural fibers mean any result he would get would necessitate a *huge* grain of salt (more than normally comes with his testing results). Within the frisky rope circles, it’s generally assumed that a new, quality, 6mm hemp or jute rope will break in the 200-300lb range (lower end for jute, higher end for hemp) which can easily be reduced as the rope gets used and looses integrity in the fibers. It’s considered best modern practice where safety is a priority to use synthetic POSH rope (stands for Port Out Starboard Home) for the load-bearing up-lines of a suspension tie, and that stuff has a rated MBS of something like 2k-ish lbs-force for 6mm diameter iirc. TLDR; I think it’d be a waste of this channel’s time resource to chase the Shibari angle. There are products with MBS numbers within that space, and natural fibers have too much variability to make testing them worthwhile or meaningful.
Solid points, I hope Ryan gets some Posh (spelling unsure) or some samples of the other fancy shibari ropes out there. This was one heck of a test result, I know my rigger friends would be bug eyed. Last summer I was asked to build another ceiling hardpoint and got ghosted when I tried to explain 10,000 lbs (44kn) hardware from mcmastercarr (overkill millwright safety factor ratings not realistic-ish climbing safety factor ratings) would be ludicrously expensive and way out of proportion to the strength of the ~100 year old, very shallow angle ex-industrial roof they wanted to hang it from. :/
I did a few tests with shibari rope.(Jute Rope) Single column ties, friction on bamboos, maximum force on anchor. If you are interested. Let me know. The main thing I took away was, that bamboos are the main weakpoint.
BTW, i have always been told that plant fibres increase in strength when wet - in contrast to synthetic fibres which do not change. (Not so relevant when talking about ropes, but animal fibres decrease in strength when wet.) That could be an interesting test?
Could still be hemp! I work at a Maritime museum and have seen some well preserved old hemp rope. The older stuff is very shiny and has a beautiful golden color to it. This is due to the hand rendering of the fiber which keeps the natural oils and you also end up with longer undisturbed fibers, which adds to its sheen. Modern hemp is machine processed and loses its oils, it also tends to have shorter fibers which gives it a more matte finish.
Also sisal typically has a much coarser fiber and it has a harder time staying in the lay of the rope. Which usually results in noticeably long yarns jutting out from the rope. It tends to have a more disturbed look than traditional hemp. The best way to tell is by feel. And smell!
Plenty of tests from the day available, a 12mm hemp rope would get 8.8kN, Manila (which isn't actually hemp) 7.8kN. That looked like a cheapo sisal rope.
I agree belaying by hand means you can ensure a soft catch if you know what you are doing, but 2kN is still really low. A climber with all their gear could easily weigh close to 1kN and just bouncing on the rope generates 2g, so you've got pretty much no safety ratio just bouncing.
Not an experimental archeologist but I've made and broken a lot of natural fiber ropes. It's not a straightforward question. Generally ropes made in the 17 and 18 hundreds for naval applications would have been a core of 2 or 3 thin cords that were twined together with all the fibers going one direction (say clockwise). Then they would be impregnated with bitumen. Then, either a single, double, or triple cord braid, weave, or twining would happen over the top of that in the opposite direction. Then it would be waxed. Ropes made like this would be so much stronger (maybe even comparable to modern super static ropes). In fact, some of the rigging lines were used continuously for 50 plus years. Sometimes when retired the ropes would be untwisted and woven into nets, or frayed out and used as 'cabbage'. He mentioned shibari ropes. The really good hand made ones. Are generally about double the strength of the store bought rope. The fibers are combed and layed out with consistent lengths and thicknesses that avoid stress points and week spots. What you've asked does show a very important point that is absolutely true to all natural fibers including leather products. If the materials are produced and processed with care, and are oiled and cared for appropriately they will absolutely be stronger. Ropes that "dry out" and ropes that collect dust, are just not as durable.
If you wanted to make a biodegradable rap anchor your best option would be viscose or silk. Hemp ages rapidly over time, so if you consider the hemp rope from Amazon is probably already old and lower quality than the stuff from the early 20th century, the similar numbers make sense.
New hemp/jute/sisal rope is always made from fibers harvested in a way thay results in each fiber being significantly shortet than it would been with traditional harvesting methods. So the new roap from amazone is likely not even half as strong as it should been if harvested and made traditionally instead of whit short fibers in a soft and fluffy manner. The old roap is 80 years old so is unlikey to have even a third of its original strength. It also looks to be a thickness that looks nice in photos than what would be used to climb....
The Mountaineers used to have rope garages where you could check out a rope. Most of them were hemp and only a few goldline due to cost. There was a Mountaineers climbing accident on Mt. Rainier Emmons glacier in 67-ish. Larry Penberthy became involved in investigating the accident which led him to investigate rope forces, ice axes, boot ax belays and carabiners. This eventually led to him founding MSR. He either invented or popularized the metal ice axe and studied the angle of the pick for the best arrest and ice climbing. Patagonia was still selling hickory shafted ice for a couple of years after the Thunderbird came out. He developed ice screws that are remarkably like modern screws. He'd probably be better known if he wasn't such a brilliant engineer with a bit of a curmudgeon personality when dealing with people on safety issues. Anyone remember the raw kernmantle ropes they sold that you boiled your self?
@2:58, I like the idea. There are shadow boxes that are deeper than normal picture frames. A framing shop should be able to help you with the details. Though making your own isn’t so impossible. Just need a router, saw and some way to join the corners together. Using a nice and straight 1"x 3" or a 1"x 4" should be enough material (having to use usa wood sizes, I’m sorry).
You should buy some 8mm Hemp rope from Twisted Monk to break test. Not because it's Shibari rope, but because if domestically made hemp rope is going to be stronger than amazon hemp rope, or made to a quality standard closer to 1940s rope, that would be the place that would do that.
Interesting stuff :) I'm a long time climber but also love primitive archery....so have made many natural material bowstrings :) A bow string is a stern test of your cord making abilities. The old hemp rope was probably too dry and had likely been stored too dry thus losing a lot of its original strength. UV might also have been a factor. The new 'hemp' rope was definitely lacking in quality haha the way these sort of ropes are made nowadays is a far cry from using true hemp fibers that are full length. These modern fibers ropes are generally machine processed fibers and are thus too short to make a quality fiber rope. A very imprtant factor is fiber length before being reverse twisted up into rope. I've break tested some of my nettle fiber strings and have got around 450 - 500lbs from 1/8th diameter. Maybe somebody out there knows how to work out the strength of a 1/2" rope based on those breaking strengths???
Have you seen data on linen based strings? I was surprised to find out the reason linen garments are so light is because the individual fibers are incredibly long, to the point of them extracting the plants with the roots because the fibers extend that low.
What you said about getting soft...I'm 58. I'm the youngest in my canyoning club. We visit the Alps twice year, for a week. All we take; dive suits, belt, carabiner and eights. Yes only "eights" to rappel. We started wearing helmets a couple of years ago, to look like we know what we were doing. Most of the 80's and 90's we used any rope thicker that 8mm. That had a bit of flex. The biggest kick or rush still, is to pass by other canyoners fast with belts full of shiny jingle jangle safety sht. And if at any point someone start to cheer or applaud, we agreed he will be thrown down a cliff. I do enjoy watching your channel and wonder sometimes if people concerned with so much safety should even be looking at a mountain picture. 😁
I was in the navy and we never used natural fiber cordage for anything meant as a lifesaving precaution. Not even important rigging. Only used it for tying rigging in place (e.g. transfer-at-sea or towing rigs that would be let out a little at a time by cutting the hemp). And I'd most certainly not expect much from such an old rope as that one!
@@NPC-fl3gq 19.05 officially, which makes 19 close enough for most rope work. A 3/4 rope might bind in a 19mm eye, but generally people don't try to put 19mm rope in as 19mm eye anyway.
I mean shibari usually uses Hempex or sometimes MFP for suspension- I’d be interested in those, since they are synthetic, but I’d also be VERY interested to know the MBS of the silk sheets used by aerial silk trapeze (think cirque du soleil)
Remember that the guys that used hemp rope were alpinists ... they did not lead vertical walls 10 ft above their last anchor. Alpine falls (unless you slide over a cliff are very dynamic). The person who lost their footing is sliding along a slope attempting a self arrest. Their tied in partner may get planted but may also be sliding and arresting. If they get planted they do a dynamic belay friction grip on their body or ice axe. It is difficult to visualize the possible forces but my take is that it is unlikely to be anything like a vertical fall. The way a twisted rope is constructed results in a rope that is quite stretchy. The hemp fiber might be relatively not stretchy (unlike nylon for comparison) but a twisted rope elongates a lot when pulled tight. Cool test none the less !!
We had some hemp/hemp-like rope when I was a kid and i was able to break it as like an 8-10 year old just pulling on a bush branch. so this not much thicker stuff breaking at 2kn honestly made sense thinking back to that memory
Maybe abaca rope may be a little stronger. But for fibers derived from plants it is heavily dependent of the manufacturing process. Silk rope may be a possible way to go
The worst part about hemp rope is not that it is static or breaks really low. The worst part is that it must not get wet, or it will start to rot from the core, making it break under body weight
It would be great to test them with traditional 3 strand eye splices with tapers and all. That was one of advantages of the stuff, was it was fairly easy to splice in the field.
I chatted with my mom (1960s mountain climber) about this a few years ago. Step 1) you didn't fall. Step 2) In the 60's and into the 70's, you didn't fall. You assumed fall=dead. My Mom was shocked when I described falling on prod. It was another world to her. You did not climb, what you could not climb. Now, we climb what we might climb.
Strange-looking rope doesn't look like hemp. My father has a 9mm hemp rope and it's a marvel to handle, so smooth, tying knots. OK, when wet, it's stiff, you cannot untie knots, and when icy, well, you may climb on it ;-) Very static indeed, but he survived a fall with a few broken ribs
I SO wanna see you test shibari rope from credible vendors! They use 6mm for groundwork and 8mm of either jute or hemp or "Posh" for suspension. Your first rope looks more like jute or maybe sisal btw.
Could you please try a wrap two pull one or wrap three pull two? There is actually a whole community of climbers and skiers here in MT that are interested in biodegradable rappel anchors.
Theres someone in London who has been doing testing of high quality hemp rope for shibari and they were aparently stronger than that, havent met them in person though so dont have the exact data
Back Country skier and climber here. I am always conscious about what I leave behind, but HELL no would I use something like that. My life, and the life of my partners is not worth the small amount of tat I may leave behind on a horn.... But that's just me.
Hey Ryan, I was thinking the last few months about using a braided cotton rope for the cliffed out scenario. I also do iceclimbing and with Abalakov slings it's the same issue of leaving nylon in the invironment. So I'd gladly ask you if you could do some testing on braided cotton and/or hemp ropes which are available now. Although I don't think the age matters in this case 😅
Hello! I work for a rope access company and just found this pretty cool looking pulley from atheightuk, called the PulleyOne. Would you be able to do a review on it? I'm trying to convince my boss to order one just to see how it holds up against the rollclip, or any other mini carriage equipment.
Today’s hemp is quite a bit weaker than hemp of yesteryear. If I’m not mistaken of course. Basically in the process of being run out of town buy the paper corporations we lost much of our hemp genetics and technology. With some science hemp is likely the strongest natural static line you could make. And this is why if you see someone supporting corporations over running the little guy and just supporting corporations, you shouldn’t believe they have your best interest in mind. Coughvotebluecough
No, they did not use HEMP, they used MANILLA ropes. Manilla ropes replaced all hemp ropes in rigging of ships before the turn of the 20th century started. A few VERY cheap climbers still used hemp I suppose, but very very few did.
@@w8stral Manila hemp is Abacá, a plant of the banana family, it is weaker than genuine hemp but prefered for shipping as it is more resistant to salt water. True hemp rope has to be tarred in marine applications as it is prone to rot which is why Manila was prefered when it became available as it doesn't need tarring.
I'd love to figure out the strongest natural fiber rope that could be made. And then run the economic numbers to see if any of them are safe enough AND cheap enough AND light enough for use as "abandoned gear." Hemp? Silk? Flax/linen? Wool?
Manila "hemp" is made from Abacá. Some 7 years ago my Scouting group changed to synthetic fiber rope for pioneering (Polypropylene Polytex rope). It was no long possible to source good Manila rope for a reasonable price. Knots have low efficiency compared to the same knot in climbing rope. Manila rope has relative low stretch, but large friction, reducing knot efficiency. I love the smell of manila rope.
You've probably answered this before but... How does length affect the breaking strain? Your tests seem to test about a 1 metre(ISH) length of rope. Would it break at a higher or lower force if 40 metres of rope was out?
There's no practical difference between different lengths of rope. The only thing that's different is that the rope has to hold up its own weight in addition to that of the climber, but unless the rope is obscenely long, like measured in kilometers, the amount of rope involved will weigh much less than the climber. Also, you run into practicality problems well before the rope gets heavy enough to rival the weight of the climber. Can you imagine trying to lift 200 meters of rope (weighing maybe 20 kg, and of course, there's friction too) with one arm every time you need to clip?
When i lived in nz, hemp rope was the only rope that could be used for rigging and lifting. no other rope allowed on site. I was topld the reason, and it made sense, but i forgot it. Anyone know why?
It would be interesting to see the difference in Shibari ropes. Many different materials are used, but what I would be really interested is how much dying changes the strength. You can get natural hemp, or have it died any color of the rainbow. Also, it usually isn’t just a single strand, but multiple wraps for suspension. Even basic tying has you double it over and wrap as a pair.
I'd really love to see you do a colab with Matt's Off Road Recovery (or similar) to measure forces when yanking cars out of mud pits, and break-testing the stength of their tow ropes, heavy-duty soft shackles, etc. Would be super fun!
Only real men used hemp ropes. Climbers with gear fear would be using horse hair ropes. Only kidding Dougal Haston used horse hair ropes but he did use wooden pegs and nuts made from actual machine nuts. So sort of even its self out.
The hip belay was the dynamic part!
I came here to say this ☝️ also... the leader must not fall!
I think my grandpa was in one of your pictures at the start. I have his hemp rope from the early 50s. Still use it for guiding trees down. It does last a damn long time at very least.
What's the thickness?
I didn’t measure it but the rope he broke felt about 8mm.
Smell test result: "Old"
"The leader must not fall" - general rule back then
"Get the silk rope - it's under the bed" - Spencer Tracy (more or less) from "The Mountain". If you've not watched this 1956 classic do so. Spencer plays a humble Swiss goat herder who reveals his bad-ass mountain guide past when the going gets tough. Great Easter Eggs from the riggers and guides hired for the production.
I'd also recommend "The Mountain" the 2024 NZ classic.
I found a piece of manilla rope that had been left in the project cave I work in. This area was damp and muddy. Originally much of the cave was rigged with Goldline (this is the project cave I was talking with you about a couple of years ago). Most likely it had been there since the 50s. It looked perfect but when I touched it it had essentially turned to jelly, it was a perfect cast of the rope but had no structural integrity left at all.
Yay, I’m glad you finally got a chance to test it. I figured it would break pretty low.
People didn't tend to take "whippers" on hemp ropes ( well not twice!!).
OK Ryan I have one for you. Since you mentioned that the hemp rope might only be good enough to tie your horse up with, (see I was paying attention) how about getting some actual rope used for equines, such as a lead rope? I have had many of my horses break them when tied off when they get agitated so it might be interesting for funs sake to find out how tough they actually are. Thanks again.
I do shibari suspension for 10 years. Some notes:
- single double line is not enough to hold person! Basic is 3 double lines, including supporting knots!
- jute under load is really sensitive how you tie it. It does not like small knots and tight bends. It has something to do with zero elasticity, inner strands in tight bend are under heavier load than outer strands.
-for friction under load, always tie over carabiner to get lower friction. Rope over rope friction will strip away strands, and cause wear much faster.
- do not put pressure on bight
- much better is to use flax or hemp rope for main suspension lines. Those are much stronger and way more wear resistant. Keep jute for body contact to get better grip with body.
If you want to follow this rabbit hole, I suggest Bruce Esinem's channel. He did a lot of load testing on shibari ropes.
Just to clarify, by "hemp rope" for main suspension line, I mean rope made out of technical cannabis plant.
If you were to test shibari rope then you should consider a few points:
-Cheap rope sometimes has no core
-Ropes are often doubled up to reduce presasure on the skin
-There are different materials being used
While yes it would be funny if you just brake them like normal rope, it'd also be interessting to see them tested with intended use in mind.
Meh, I’d prefer he save his time and not bother going down that path. There’s still plenty of questions to be explored within the spaces he’s already covering. Variance in natural fibers mean any result he would get would necessitate a *huge* grain of salt (more than normally comes with his testing results).
Within the frisky rope circles, it’s generally assumed that a new, quality, 6mm hemp or jute rope will break in the 200-300lb range (lower end for jute, higher end for hemp) which can easily be reduced as the rope gets used and looses integrity in the fibers.
It’s considered best modern practice where safety is a priority to use synthetic POSH rope (stands for Port Out Starboard Home) for the load-bearing up-lines of a suspension tie, and that stuff has a rated MBS of something like 2k-ish lbs-force for 6mm diameter iirc.
TLDR; I think it’d be a waste of this channel’s time resource to chase the Shibari angle. There are products with MBS numbers within that space, and natural fibers have too much variability to make testing them worthwhile or meaningful.
Solid points, I hope Ryan gets some Posh (spelling unsure) or some samples of the other fancy shibari ropes out there.
This was one heck of a test result, I know my rigger friends would be bug eyed. Last summer I was asked to build another ceiling hardpoint and got ghosted when I tried to explain 10,000 lbs (44kn) hardware from mcmastercarr (overkill millwright safety factor ratings not realistic-ish climbing safety factor ratings) would be ludicrously expensive and way out of proportion to the strength of the ~100 year old, very shallow angle ex-industrial roof they wanted to hang it from. :/
I did a few tests with shibari rope.(Jute Rope) Single column ties, friction on bamboos, maximum force on anchor. If you are interested. Let me know.
The main thing I took away was, that bamboos are the main weakpoint.
That first rope does not look like a hemp rope! It looks like sisal. (In fact, i am pretty sure it is)
Agreed, you can tell by the differing sheen from the modern hemp rope. Sisal has a nice sheen
BTW, i have always been told that plant fibres increase in strength when wet - in contrast to synthetic fibres which do not change. (Not so relevant when talking about ropes, but animal fibres decrease in strength when wet.) That could be an interesting test?
@@pinkerbot Yeah, swelling of the fibers & pectin. same effect in wood & cotton.
Could still be hemp! I work at a Maritime museum and have seen some well preserved old hemp rope. The older stuff is very shiny and has a beautiful golden color to it. This is due to the hand rendering of the fiber which keeps the natural oils and you also end up with longer undisturbed fibers, which adds to its sheen. Modern hemp is machine processed and loses its oils, it also tends to have shorter fibers which gives it a more matte finish.
Also sisal typically has a much coarser fiber and it has a harder time staying in the lay of the rope. Which usually results in noticeably long yarns jutting out from the rope. It tends to have a more disturbed look than traditional hemp. The best way to tell is by feel. And smell!
Plenty of tests from the day available, a 12mm hemp rope would get 8.8kN, Manila (which isn't actually hemp) 7.8kN. That looked like a cheapo sisal rope.
Yeah, the old rope looks more like a "this looks nice in photos" rope than a "this is what I use to climb with rope"
Were these tests done on eye splice?
@kimjongmill4445 No, they were cordage tests not termination tests.
it could be interesting to see how much hip belaying slips the rope and perhaps limits the peak force enough to not break it
I agree belaying by hand means you can ensure a soft catch if you know what you are doing, but 2kN is still really low. A climber with all their gear could easily weigh close to 1kN and just bouncing on the rope generates 2g, so you've got pretty much no safety ratio just bouncing.
I researched the hell out of that rope before I donated, including having old-timers check it out. 99.9% was not sisal.
Time to get the Experimental Archaeologists involved. What does a traditionally made rope but made 'fresh' break at?
Not an experimental archeologist but I've made and broken a lot of natural fiber ropes.
It's not a straightforward question. Generally ropes made in the 17 and 18 hundreds for naval applications would have been a core of 2 or 3 thin cords that were twined together with all the fibers going one direction (say clockwise). Then they would be impregnated with bitumen. Then, either a single, double, or triple cord braid, weave, or twining would happen over the top of that in the opposite direction. Then it would be waxed.
Ropes made like this would be so much stronger (maybe even comparable to modern super static ropes). In fact, some of the rigging lines were used continuously for 50 plus years. Sometimes when retired the ropes would be untwisted and woven into nets, or frayed out and used as 'cabbage'.
He mentioned shibari ropes. The really good hand made ones. Are generally about double the strength of the store bought rope. The fibers are combed and layed out with consistent lengths and thicknesses that avoid stress points and week spots.
What you've asked does show a very important point that is absolutely true to all natural fibers including leather products. If the materials are produced and processed with care, and are oiled and cared for appropriately they will absolutely be stronger. Ropes that "dry out" and ropes that collect dust, are just not as durable.
Would love to see the strength difference between tying a knot and splicing and eye in the 3 strand!
If you wanted to make a biodegradable rap anchor your best option would be viscose or silk. Hemp ages rapidly over time, so if you consider the hemp rope from Amazon is probably already old and lower quality than the stuff from the early 20th century, the similar numbers make sense.
New hemp/jute/sisal rope is always made from fibers harvested in a way thay results in each fiber being significantly shortet than it would been with traditional harvesting methods.
So the new roap from amazone is likely not even half as strong as it should been if harvested and made traditionally instead of whit short fibers in a soft and fluffy manner.
The old roap is 80 years old so is unlikey to have even a third of its original strength.
It also looks to be a thickness that looks nice in photos than what would be used to climb....
Just been digitising some of my mums old photos where she was climbing on hemp rope with nailed boots c1948-52. They built them stronger back then.
The Mountaineers used to have rope garages where you could check out a rope. Most of them were hemp and only a few goldline due to cost. There was a Mountaineers climbing accident on Mt. Rainier Emmons glacier in 67-ish. Larry Penberthy became involved in investigating the accident which led him to investigate rope forces, ice axes, boot ax belays and carabiners. This eventually led to him founding MSR. He either invented or popularized the metal ice axe and studied the angle of the pick for the best arrest and ice climbing. Patagonia was still selling hickory shafted ice for a couple of years after the Thunderbird came out. He developed ice screws that are remarkably like modern screws. He'd probably be better known if he wasn't such a brilliant engineer with a bit of a curmudgeon personality when dealing with people on safety issues. Anyone remember the raw kernmantle ropes they sold that you boiled your self?
@2:58, I like the idea. There are shadow boxes that are deeper than normal picture frames. A framing shop should be able to help you with the details. Though making your own isn’t so impossible. Just need a router, saw and some way to join the corners together. Using a nice and straight 1"x 3" or a 1"x 4" should be enough material (having to use usa wood sizes, I’m sorry).
You should buy some 8mm Hemp rope from Twisted Monk to break test. Not because it's Shibari rope, but because if domestically made hemp rope is going to be stronger than amazon hemp rope, or made to a quality standard closer to 1940s rope, that would be the place that would do that.
*with modern safety backups in place* it would be interesting to see it tested in a climb/rappel situation to see how dangerous it really was.
A Shibari rope test for valentines or April fools could be very silly. Especially if you deadpan it 😅
Interesting stuff :)
I'm a long time climber but also love primitive archery....so have made many natural material bowstrings :) A bow string is a stern test of your cord making abilities.
The old hemp rope was probably too dry and had likely been stored too dry thus losing a lot of its original strength. UV might also have been a factor. The new 'hemp' rope was definitely lacking in quality haha the way these sort of ropes are made nowadays is a far cry from using true hemp fibers that are full length. These modern fibers ropes are generally machine processed fibers and are thus too short to make a quality fiber rope. A very imprtant factor is fiber length before being reverse twisted up into rope.
I've break tested some of my nettle fiber strings and have got around 450 - 500lbs from 1/8th diameter. Maybe somebody out there knows how to work out the strength of a 1/2" rope based on those breaking strengths???
Have you seen data on linen based strings?
I was surprised to find out the reason linen garments are so light is because the individual fibers are incredibly long, to the point of them extracting the plants with the roots because the fibers extend that low.
What you said about getting soft...I'm 58. I'm the youngest in my canyoning club. We visit the Alps twice year, for a week. All we take; dive suits, belt, carabiner and eights. Yes only "eights" to rappel. We started wearing helmets a couple of years ago, to look like we know what we were doing. Most of the 80's and 90's we used any rope thicker that 8mm. That had a bit of flex. The biggest kick or rush still, is to pass by other canyoners fast with belts full of shiny jingle jangle safety sht. And if at any point someone start to cheer or applaud, we agreed he will be thrown down a cliff. I do enjoy watching your channel and wonder sometimes if people concerned with so much safety should even be looking at a mountain picture. 😁
I was in the navy and we never used natural fiber cordage for anything meant as a lifesaving precaution. Not even important rigging. Only used it for tying rigging in place (e.g. transfer-at-sea or towing rigs that would be let out a little at a time by cutting the hemp). And I'd most certainly not expect much from such an old rope as that one!
It keeps its value for a long time 😁
If you are going to rappel on a tree just get a friction saver and you can retrieve it after rappeling
"The leader must not fall."
This was the law back in the day.
In the early 80s when I did fire rescue training we used 3/4 manila rope for life safety.
What's that in metric!? 18-19mm!?
@@NPC-fl3gq 19.05 officially, which makes 19 close enough for most rope work. A 3/4 rope might bind in a 19mm eye, but generally people don't try to put 19mm rope in as 19mm eye anyway.
@@NPC-fl3gq 19mm
Thanks guys (and girls if applicable)
This is definitely why knowing how much a knot reduced the strength of your rope mattered a lot.
I mean shibari usually uses Hempex or sometimes MFP for suspension- I’d be interested in those, since they are synthetic, but I’d also be VERY interested to know the MBS of the silk sheets used by aerial silk trapeze (think cirque du soleil)
Remember that the guys that used hemp rope were alpinists ... they did not lead vertical walls 10 ft above their last anchor. Alpine falls (unless you slide over a cliff are very dynamic). The person who lost their footing is sliding along a slope attempting a self arrest. Their tied in partner may get planted but may also be sliding and arresting. If they get planted they do a dynamic belay friction grip on their body or ice axe. It is difficult to visualize the possible forces but my take is that it is unlikely to be anything like a vertical fall. The way a twisted rope is constructed results in a rope that is quite stretchy. The hemp fiber might be relatively not stretchy (unlike nylon for comparison) but a twisted rope elongates a lot when pulled tight. Cool test none the less !!
We had some hemp/hemp-like rope when I was a kid and i was able to break it as like an 8-10 year old just pulling on a bush branch. so this not much thicker stuff breaking at 2kn honestly made sense thinking back to that memory
I used hemp ropes in sailing, almost all from my parents and grandparents. They held up fine there. But glad we never tried hanging off them…
You need to find a length of whatever they used in the age of sail to haul around someone in the Bosun's chair.
Maybe abaca rope may be a little stronger. But for fibers derived from plants it is heavily dependent of the manufacturing process. Silk rope may be a possible way to go
Edit: silk seems to be about twice as strong but less abrasion resistant so not ideal
The worst part about hemp rope is not that it is static or breaks really low. The worst part is that it must not get wet, or it will start to rot from the core, making it break under body weight
It would be great to test them with traditional 3 strand eye splices with tapers and all. That was one of advantages of the stuff, was it was fairly easy to splice in the field.
I chatted with my mom (1960s mountain climber) about this a few years ago. Step 1) you didn't fall. Step 2) In the 60's and into the 70's, you didn't fall. You assumed fall=dead. My Mom was shocked when I described falling on prod. It was another world to her. You did not climb, what you could not climb. Now, we climb what we might climb.
Strange-looking rope doesn't look like hemp. My father has a 9mm hemp rope and it's a marvel to handle, so smooth, tying knots. OK, when wet, it's stiff, you cannot untie knots, and when icy, well, you may climb on it ;-) Very static indeed, but he survived a fall with a few broken ribs
I SO wanna see you test shibari rope from credible vendors! They use 6mm for groundwork and 8mm of either jute or hemp or "Posh" for suspension.
Your first rope looks more like jute or maybe sisal btw.
Next soak the Hemp line & pull test it. It's believed that wet 3 strand hemp or cotton is stronger than it's dry state.
On the plus side… the knot was still easy to untie after
I would be interested to see how well the anchor hitch holds
4:07 That’s super cool
Could you please try a wrap two pull one or wrap three pull two? There is actually a whole community of climbers and skiers here in MT that are interested in biodegradable rappel anchors.
Theres someone in London who has been doing testing of high quality hemp rope for shibari and they were aparently stronger than that, havent met them in person though so dont have the exact data
Good work
This episode was cool 👌🏻👍🏻🌹
Sure that old rope isn't manila or sisal?
The sound of the hemp rope getting pulled will haunt me
Also, the issue with leaving a biodegradable anchor behind is that it would bioDEGRADE. And other people might still use it!
That's strange. I have 1/4 hemp rope from Langman and it is rated for 600lb. I wonder how dry that rope is for it to have failed like that.
Check if the new hemp rope was real hemp. There is a lot of synthetic hemp rope out there.
Back Country skier and climber here. I am always conscious about what I leave behind, but HELL no would I use something like that. My life, and the life of my partners is not worth the small amount of tat I may leave behind on a horn.... But that's just me.
Hey Ryan, I was thinking the last few months about using a braided cotton rope for the cliffed out scenario. I also do iceclimbing and with Abalakov slings it's the same issue of leaving nylon in the invironment.
So I'd gladly ask you if you could do some testing on braided cotton and/or hemp ropes which are available now.
Although I don't think the age matters in this case 😅
Could you test if tarred rope like was used on ships is stronger/weaker/same
Hello! I work for a rope access company and just found this pretty cool looking pulley from atheightuk, called the PulleyOne. Would you be able to do a review on it? I'm trying to convince my boss to order one just to see how it holds up against the rollclip, or any other mini carriage equipment.
I wonder what a bowline would have done vs an 8. Maybe less rope pinching?
I was wondering about an eye splice instead of a knot.
Have you commented to make Ryan Happy today?
So the guy was basically climbing with 550 paracord…wild!
Today’s hemp is quite a bit weaker than hemp of yesteryear. If I’m not mistaken of course. Basically in the process of being run out of town buy the paper corporations we lost much of our hemp genetics and technology. With some science hemp is likely the strongest natural static line you could make. And this is why if you see someone supporting corporations over running the little guy and just supporting corporations, you shouldn’t believe they have your best interest in mind. Coughvotebluecough
Who’s blue?
No, they did not use HEMP, they used MANILLA ropes. Manilla ropes replaced all hemp ropes in rigging of ships before the turn of the 20th century started. A few VERY cheap climbers still used hemp I suppose, but very very few did.
@@w8stral Manila hemp is Abacá, a plant of the banana family, it is weaker than genuine hemp but prefered for shipping as it is more resistant to salt water. True hemp rope has to be tarred in marine applications as it is prone to rot which is why Manila was prefered when it became available as it doesn't need tarring.
@@jimtitt3571 Sounds about right as a reason instead of hand me down knowledge.
I'd love to figure out the strongest natural fiber rope that could be made. And then run the economic numbers to see if any of them are safe enough AND cheap enough AND light enough for use as "abandoned gear."
Hemp?
Silk?
Flax/linen?
Wool?
Is Manila and Hemp the same rope? I watched a show on Everest and all of the rope was Manila back in 1924.
Manila is made of sisal fibres, I believe, rather than hemp.
Manila "hemp" is made from Abacá. Some 7 years ago my Scouting group changed to synthetic fiber rope for pioneering (Polypropylene Polytex rope). It was no long possible to source good Manila rope for a reasonable price. Knots have low efficiency compared to the same knot in climbing rope. Manila rope has relative low stretch, but large friction, reducing knot efficiency. I love the smell of manila rope.
how about bowline to bowline?
Yellow plastic rope strength?
very cool
Masonry string is 250lbs
Hey, a safety ratio of 1.5 is super good enough, right?
It could have degraded and lost strength with age.
I agree. When I donated it, it had a little bit of rot happening.
At least it lets you know it's unhappy if you're using it in a slow pull
You've probably answered this before but...
How does length affect the breaking strain? Your tests seem to test about a 1 metre(ISH) length of rope. Would it break at a higher or lower force if 40 metres of rope was out?
There's no practical difference between different lengths of rope. The only thing that's different is that the rope has to hold up its own weight in addition to that of the climber, but unless the rope is obscenely long, like measured in kilometers, the amount of rope involved will weigh much less than the climber. Also, you run into practicality problems well before the rope gets heavy enough to rival the weight of the climber. Can you imagine trying to lift 200 meters of rope (weighing maybe 20 kg, and of course, there's friction too) with one arm every time you need to clip?
@Keldor314 cool
When i lived in nz, hemp rope was the only rope that could be used for rigging and lifting. no other rope allowed on site.
I was topld the reason, and it made sense, but i forgot it. Anyone know why?
Was there welding or other “hot” work nearby?
@dwaynepenner2788 not generally, it was a papermill and any hot work was seriously controlled..
We should all be more conscious of leaving garbage out in the wild but yeah, this ain't it.
Cool addition to the wall, tho
Maybe they used this more as some emotional support than physical support?
Ryan, are you descended from Joseph Jenks to came to America from England in the 1640’s?
It would be interesting to see the difference in Shibari ropes. Many different materials are used, but what I would be really interested is how much dying changes the strength. You can get natural hemp, or have it died any color of the rainbow. Also, it usually isn’t just a single strand, but multiple wraps for suspension. Even basic tying has you double it over and wrap as a pair.
I'd really love to see you do a colab with Matt's Off Road Recovery (or similar) to measure forces when yanking cars out of mud pits, and break-testing the stength of their tow ropes, heavy-duty soft shackles, etc. Would be super fun!
Those ropes where more like pacifier. Its soothing to have a rope, but better not using it
biodegradable rope on perma frost is a joke no?
kuh kah!
lots of them didnt.
Yikes.
I do not think this is historically accurate rope at all.
Whip.
Would
Survived? Maybe quite a few didn't! And probably most things over 5.9 (HVS???) were aided.
Only real men used hemp ropes. Climbers with gear fear would be using horse hair ropes. Only kidding Dougal Haston used horse hair ropes but he did use wooden pegs and nuts made from actual machine nuts. So sort of even its self out.
why did it say empath?
Yet another bio product. ;-)
I feel like you are spoiled?
First
Thou use to skinny carabiner. Check the real strength.
So the guy was basically climbing with 550 paracord…wild!
Yep.