Haven't seen any other of you're videos, but you did a good job in this one. I will say, I'm nowhere near to going EV. I watch all the pros and cons videos from various channel....some stuff I take with a pinch of salt! Just seems to me, it's a lot of hassle having an EV. I will stay with tanking up with fuel twice a month and not have any worries.
Thanks. There's a lot of 1-sided view points out there, from both sides. I'm hoping to hit the 'realism' angle with my videos. Probably doesn't get me anywhere as many views or subscribers because it's all a bit less click baity but that's my aim anyway! In terms of hassle, I think that all depends on where you'll be charging. If it's from home on a driveway like me (or where you usually park, e.g. dedicated flats/apartment car park), then it's very simple to live with an EV. If you have to use public charging for all your charging then it would be a real grind, I'm sure. The way an EV drives is very different, if you have any interest in EVs or even just cars in general, then I'd recommend having a test drive in a decent one, even if just for the experience.
I was waiting for someone to pick up on that one! :) When I bought that air freshener it was cherry and obviously was red. But then it got low, so I bought some fragrance stuff to refill it with, and opted for 'morning coffee' thinking only of the smell and not how it'd look! Definably a mistake, and I now have a whole bottle of the stuff to use up.
Thanks a lot for this video on battery status (8% degradation in 2 years/51000 miles). I think I need to start doing my own stats (despite my mileage per year is minimal). What warranty on battery you have in UK? In CH, we have 7 years on battery or 150 000 km (93200 miles), meaning that they need to keep at leat 70% or original status. For 12V battery, only 2 years warranty.
Warranty here in the UK is the same(ish). We have 7 years or 100,000 miles for the car, 8 years or 100,000 miles for the battery, 2 years for the 12v battery and I think there's a different corrosion warranty on the bodywork too. Certainly at a rate of 25,000 per year I will reach the 100,000 limit before any of the timescales. Four years and I'll be done with the warranty. Double that 8% and you only reach 16% which is well below the 30% they cover with the warranty.
Batteries degrade the most during it's first year of constant use, then levels out to very small to tiny degrations after that. As long as you take proper care and don't park if for long periods with very high or very low state of charge.
See, that's what I thought. But if the car's info is reading correct then it was pretty stable for the first year and has taken a larger drop towards the end of year 2. Maybe the first year drop is delayed (by a year) and it'll stabilise out a bit more now!
To follow my previous question: you are aware of Bjorn Nylands channel, where he drives various EVs , also EV6s, back and forth along Norway and Sweden and Denmark and Germany, with OBD readings constantly showing up in his phone?
Have you not got car scanner which will show you the cell voltage differences between the lowest & highest, you can also see real BMS SOH as a % of total including buffers. I do this on my Kia Eniro4 +
There is a way to measure the top buffer. BMS SOC at 100% charge (is that a data point the EV6 has?). Gives an indication of the gross battery capacity, which along with SoH can be used to estimate top buffer. I suspect the point at which your degradation accelerated was when it stopped reducing the top buffer size.
@@EVCarShare seems it's shrinking the top buffer still then, but also the net capacity. If BMS SOC rises then the buffer is shrinking significantly in order to maintain useable capacity. Niro range seems to be 94.5-97
if I can ask what has been your charging regime as home charging does not knock the stuffing out of the battery where chargung on a high charging rate does also you should not charge past 80% however it will still cause higher degradation.
Mostly at home at either 7.4 kW or 4 kW overnight, to 70 or 80%. Then when I have a long journey, I charge at home to 100% and then DC charge on rapid charge points as I need. Often on the rapids, I'll only charge to 50 or 60% as that's enough to get me home where electricity is much cheaper. But you seem to be talking as if it's some kind of terrible degradation. I think for over 50,000 miles done, 8% is fairly reasonable.
For the purpose of a warranty replacement how far down does the degredation need to go? My car just turned 3 in October and I'm just about at 90k km. It was interesting your degradation dropped more later when the general degredation curve of lithium batteries is usually a large drop up front and then pretty linear drop after that. The range is already a huge issue for me which is why I picked a PHEV so if I were about double your degredation I would be dropping 40 miles... That's abysmally bad.
The warranty is for less than 30% loss during the period of 8 years or 100,000 miles whichever is soonest. As an example, mine is now around 8% after 50,000 miles. So in two more years I'll pass 100,000 and maybe the degradation will be twice what it is now at 16% and still better than the warranty requirement. But then that's assuming the degradation doubles over twice the time, this is the unknown factor.
For comparison. I drive an EV6 long range in Denmark. It turned 3 years the other day and I only have 37k km. My car still shows 100% state of health. I normally don’t charge to 100% but I did a month ago and it showed 73.3 kWh.
One question for you. Can you see the total kWh charge AC and DC. The numbers I see on my car cannot be right. It would mean more than 10 km /kwh which is obviously not true. I think the AC counter is off because it’s very low relative to DC. Have you calculated the total miles / total kWh?
@@tomm5936 I've noticed that the total AC and DC charge energies are incorrect. When I DC charge the value goes up but not by nearly enough. I guess that's what you see too?
I guess from your data and my data we would then assume that use affects the degradation more so than age? But then it's only two cars and it's silly to make too many assumptions on such a small data set.
@@EVCarShare that’s true too. I will see and pay for e.g. 50 kWh and my car will show I added 45 kWh. I believe that’s all losses due to conversion to the cars voltage (700-800 volts), loss due to heat in cables and the battery, and the energy the car is using while you’re charging to heat or cool the battery. My point was really I’m looking at accumulated DC + AC charged, it’s too low for the miles I have on the car.
I'm guessing the SOH is the value based on there maximum usable capacity, that it said when you bought it, and they only let you charge to 93/95% max, to protect the battery. So it can lose quite a lot and you will still get the 100% of what you were promised ❤. I love my ev🎉🎉
The Kia EV6 (2022 that I have) is advertised as having a 77 kWh battery. As far as I'm aware it was never stated what the usable capacity was. But on investigation it has 74 kWh remaining energy when charged to full at new. As it seems from other sources, that there is around 3 kWh left when it reaches zero remaining energy. That would make 77 from 100% down to below zero. It seems that 100% SOH is at 70 kWh or above.
I don't believe so. Cell temperature affects cell voltage but as I understand it, the energy in the battery is calculated through coulomb counting which is quite accurate and more temperature independent.
My dongle says 100 % battery state of health????? Manufactured in December 2021 and bought in Connecticut USA in January 2022. 72,000 miles plus and coming up on three years ownership. SEL RWD 77 kWh big battery. Tomorrow I head to Mount Snow from Fairfield, Connecticut, 170 miles, driving from 100 feet elevation above sea level to 1900 feet…. I’m calling that slightly uphill…… 70 mph and a little bit of heat. This seems to be a great test for my range and battery state of health. All my other daily driving is approximately 50 miles a day and I’ve only taken one long road trip. I always seem to get to the charger at Mount Snow with 30 miles of range left. This will be my fourth ski season with the car. This real world test seems to be what really matters to me as an EV driver. Maybe others too. If I can’t get to the mountain to ski, that’s a freaking problem. I do not want to stop and charge on the way, although I could, I wanna be the first one on the slope and I don’t wanna stop for anything besides maybe a quick pee break.
My dongle says 99.1% SOH at the moment. It seems to say 100% for a long time before showing any drop off. I think it 'lies' for around the first 6% ish from what I can tell. But as you say, the most important thing is can you do all your day to day driving without any hassle. And just like you, right now it isn't a problem. All is good!
You didn't discuss the effect of lighting and air con on available battery power. Some say these cause a very serious drain. Many thanks for an earnest review. I love the neutrality of your presentation.
Those things don't affect the available power but they will increase the speed at which the car drains the available power. In my experience things like the lights, wipers, heated seats, dashboard, sat nav, radio etc take up an insignificant amount of power. The AC and heater take up a more noticeable amount but that varies a lot depending on ambient temperature and how long you drive for. If you go a long way it's less significant because once the car has heated up (or cooled down) then it's less power needed to maintain it.
Very interesting. My EV6 is 18 months old and only has 6K miles. I’m curious if the rate of degradation is related to increased HPC charging compared to slower AC charging.
I've mostly charged using AC. But I have charged also on DC sometimes too. I think the difference between AC and DC charging in relation to battery health is probably down to the increases in temperature during High Power DC charging. So it probably also depends on how long your DC charge for and what the ambient temperature is too.
You can see my separate post on my EV6 but to your question, I have a lot of DC charging because for a long time I couldn’t charge at home and most of my driving come from road-trips. I work from home and have no daily driving. I believe my car is in good shape. I don’t think it’s the DC charging that hurts the battery. I would rather say you should avoid having the car sit at high state of charge and if it’s very low make sure to charge it.
Possibly a combination of factors, but a big question...why do the Korean 800V cars degrade much faster then their 400V siblings (eg Niro & Kona)?. E-Niro driver, 4 years old, 60k miles, SoH 100%, no range loss. 30% rapid charging!
@ do you have more data than just a few people? I’m a data guy and honestly curious if anyone has collected good data. I believe the degradation is much more about temperature and charging to 100%. You can see it with the Nissan Leafs that have high degradation because they don’t have proper cooling.
The state of health is 100% while the net capacity is at the starting value. At 60k miles my e-Niro still says 100%. You didnt mention SoH, but is it 92%? seems like e-GMP cars degrade alot more than the previous 400V generation from Korea.
@@austin2planks Yes. I think it's simply that Kia have programmed it to work out the SOH based on the battery being 70 kWh rather than 74 kWh. I'll know more in a couple more years maybe!
Nice video and quite realistic observation I'd say. Btw, do you keep your OBD gadget plugged in only when you take the readings, or all the time?
Haven't seen any other of you're videos, but you did a good job in this one.
I will say, I'm nowhere near to going EV. I watch all the pros and cons videos from various channel....some stuff I take with a pinch of salt!
Just seems to me, it's a lot of hassle having an EV. I will stay with tanking up with fuel twice a month and not have any worries.
Quite right. Who wants to save on their energy costs and have almost no maintenance to do? Not to mention clean air. Who wants that?
Thanks. There's a lot of 1-sided view points out there, from both sides. I'm hoping to hit the 'realism' angle with my videos. Probably doesn't get me anywhere as many views or subscribers because it's all a bit less click baity but that's my aim anyway!
In terms of hassle, I think that all depends on where you'll be charging. If it's from home on a driveway like me (or where you usually park, e.g. dedicated flats/apartment car park), then it's very simple to live with an EV. If you have to use public charging for all your charging then it would be a real grind, I'm sure. The way an EV drives is very different, if you have any interest in EVs or even just cars in general, then I'd recommend having a test drive in a decent one, even if just for the experience.
I have a one and a half year old ev6. Love it-but I don’t have a urine sample hanging from my mirror. Should I get one?
I was waiting for someone to pick up on that one! :)
When I bought that air freshener it was cherry and obviously was red. But then it got low, so I bought some fragrance stuff to refill it with, and opted for 'morning coffee' thinking only of the smell and not how it'd look! Definably a mistake, and I now have a whole bottle of the stuff to use up.
@@EVCarShareI wouldn’t worry about it -it’s only a chuckle 😅
Thanks a lot for this video on battery status (8% degradation in 2 years/51000 miles). I think I need to start doing my own stats (despite my mileage per year is minimal).
What warranty on battery you have in UK? In CH, we have 7 years on battery or 150 000 km (93200 miles), meaning that they need to keep at leat 70% or original status. For 12V battery, only 2 years warranty.
Warranty here in the UK is the same(ish). We have 7 years or 100,000 miles for the car, 8 years or 100,000 miles for the battery, 2 years for the 12v battery and I think there's a different corrosion warranty on the bodywork too. Certainly at a rate of 25,000 per year I will reach the 100,000 limit before any of the timescales. Four years and I'll be done with the warranty. Double that 8% and you only reach 16% which is well below the 30% they cover with the warranty.
Batteries degrade the most during it's first year of constant use, then levels out to very small to tiny degrations after that. As long as you take proper care and don't park if for long periods with very high or very low state of charge.
See, that's what I thought. But if the car's info is reading correct then it was pretty stable for the first year and has taken a larger drop towards the end of year 2. Maybe the first year drop is delayed (by a year) and it'll stabilise out a bit more now!
To follow my previous question: you are aware of Bjorn Nylands channel, where he drives various EVs , also EV6s, back and forth along Norway and Sweden and Denmark and Germany, with OBD readings constantly showing up in his phone?
Have you not got car scanner which will show you the cell voltage differences between the lowest & highest, you can also see real BMS SOH as a % of total including buffers.
I do this on my Kia Eniro4 +
Yes, I have car scanner. That's where I get the remaining energy value from. One of my upcoming videos will be looking at cell voltages.
There is a way to measure the top buffer. BMS SOC at 100% charge (is that a data point the EV6 has?). Gives an indication of the gross battery capacity, which along with SoH can be used to estimate top buffer. I suspect the point at which your degradation accelerated was when it stopped reducing the top buffer size.
BMS SOC is always 96.5% on my EV6 at the point where SOC is 100%. That part doesn't seem to change over time.
@@EVCarShare seems it's shrinking the top buffer still then, but also the net capacity. If BMS SOC rises then the buffer is shrinking significantly in order to maintain useable capacity. Niro range seems to be 94.5-97
if I can ask what has been your charging regime as home charging does not knock the stuffing out of the battery where chargung on a high charging rate does also you should not charge past 80% however it will still cause higher degradation.
Mostly at home at either 7.4 kW or 4 kW overnight, to 70 or 80%. Then when I have a long journey, I charge at home to 100% and then DC charge on rapid charge points as I need. Often on the rapids, I'll only charge to 50 or 60% as that's enough to get me home where electricity is much cheaper.
But you seem to be talking as if it's some kind of terrible degradation. I think for over 50,000 miles done, 8% is fairly reasonable.
For the purpose of a warranty replacement how far down does the degredation need to go?
My car just turned 3 in October and I'm just about at 90k km. It was interesting your degradation dropped more later when the general degredation curve of lithium batteries is usually a large drop up front and then pretty linear drop after that. The range is already a huge issue for me which is why I picked a PHEV so if I were about double your degredation I would be dropping 40 miles... That's abysmally bad.
The warranty is for less than 30% loss during the period of 8 years or 100,000 miles whichever is soonest. As an example, mine is now around 8% after 50,000 miles. So in two more years I'll pass 100,000 and maybe the degradation will be twice what it is now at 16% and still better than the warranty requirement. But then that's assuming the degradation doubles over twice the time, this is the unknown factor.
For comparison. I drive an EV6 long range in Denmark. It turned 3 years the other day and I only have 37k km. My car still shows 100% state of health. I normally don’t charge to 100% but I did a month ago and it showed 73.3 kWh.
One question for you. Can you see the total kWh charge AC and DC. The numbers I see on my car cannot be right. It would mean more than 10 km /kwh which is obviously not true. I think the AC counter is off because it’s very low relative to DC. Have you calculated the total miles / total kWh?
@@tomm5936 I've noticed that the total AC and DC charge energies are incorrect. When I DC charge the value goes up but not by nearly enough. I guess that's what you see too?
I guess from your data and my data we would then assume that use affects the degradation more so than age? But then it's only two cars and it's silly to make too many assumptions on such a small data set.
@@EVCarShare that’s true too. I will see and pay for e.g. 50 kWh and my car will show I added 45 kWh. I believe that’s all losses due to conversion to the cars voltage (700-800 volts), loss due to heat in cables and the battery, and the energy the car is using while you’re charging to heat or cool the battery. My point was really I’m looking at accumulated DC + AC charged, it’s too low for the miles I have on the car.
@@EVCarShare I’m fully with you. I find it interesting but we would need much more data.
I'm guessing the SOH is the value based on there maximum usable capacity, that it said when you bought it, and they only let you charge to 93/95% max, to protect the battery. So it can lose quite a lot and you will still get the 100% of what you were promised ❤. I love my ev🎉🎉
The Kia EV6 (2022 that I have) is advertised as having a 77 kWh battery. As far as I'm aware it was never stated what the usable capacity was. But on investigation it has 74 kWh remaining energy when charged to full at new. As it seems from other sources, that there is around 3 kWh left when it reaches zero remaining energy. That would make 77 from 100% down to below zero. It seems that 100% SOH is at 70 kWh or above.
@@EVCarShare there are plenty places that state the initial useable capacity. Look on evkx for example. It's definitely 74.
Does the remaining energy relate to cell-temperature?
I don't believe so. Cell temperature affects cell voltage but as I understand it, the energy in the battery is calculated through coulomb counting which is quite accurate and more temperature independent.
My dongle says 100 % battery state of health?????
Manufactured in December 2021 and bought in Connecticut USA in January 2022.
72,000 miles plus and coming up on three years ownership. SEL RWD 77 kWh big battery.
Tomorrow I head to Mount Snow from Fairfield, Connecticut, 170 miles, driving from 100 feet elevation above sea level to 1900 feet…. I’m calling that slightly uphill…… 70 mph and a little bit of heat.
This seems to be a great test for my range and battery state of health.
All my other daily driving is approximately 50 miles a day and I’ve only taken one long road trip.
I always seem to get to the charger at Mount Snow with 30 miles of range left.
This will be my fourth ski season with the car.
This real world test seems to be what really matters to me as an EV driver. Maybe others too.
If I can’t get to the mountain to ski, that’s a freaking problem.
I do not want to stop and charge on the way, although I could, I wanna be the first one on the slope and I don’t wanna stop for anything besides maybe a quick pee break.
My dongle says 99.1% SOH at the moment. It seems to say 100% for a long time before showing any drop off. I think it 'lies' for around the first 6% ish from what I can tell.
But as you say, the most important thing is can you do all your day to day driving without any hassle. And just like you, right now it isn't a problem. All is good!
You didn't discuss the effect of lighting and air con on available battery power. Some say these cause a very serious drain. Many thanks for an earnest review. I love the neutrality of your presentation.
Those things don't affect the available power but they will increase the speed at which the car drains the available power. In my experience things like the lights, wipers, heated seats, dashboard, sat nav, radio etc take up an insignificant amount of power. The AC and heater take up a more noticeable amount but that varies a lot depending on ambient temperature and how long you drive for. If you go a long way it's less significant because once the car has heated up (or cooled down) then it's less power needed to maintain it.
Very interesting. My EV6 is 18 months old and only has 6K miles. I’m curious if the rate of degradation is related to increased HPC charging compared to slower AC charging.
I've mostly charged using AC. But I have charged also on DC sometimes too. I think the difference between AC and DC charging in relation to battery health is probably down to the increases in temperature during High Power DC charging. So it probably also depends on how long your DC charge for and what the ambient temperature is too.
You can see my separate post on my EV6 but to your question, I have a lot of DC charging because for a long time I couldn’t charge at home and most of my driving come from road-trips. I work from home and have no daily driving. I believe my car is in good shape. I don’t think it’s the DC charging that hurts the battery. I would rather say you should avoid having the car sit at high state of charge and if it’s very low make sure to charge it.
@@EVCarShare How do you charge on DC?
Possibly a combination of factors, but a big question...why do the Korean 800V cars degrade much faster then their 400V siblings (eg Niro & Kona)?. E-Niro driver, 4 years old, 60k miles, SoH 100%, no range loss. 30% rapid charging!
@ do you have more data than just a few people? I’m a data guy and honestly curious if anyone has collected good data. I believe the degradation is much more about temperature and charging to 100%. You can see it with the Nissan Leafs that have high degradation because they don’t have proper cooling.
The state of health is 100% while the net capacity is at the starting value. At 60k miles my e-Niro still says 100%. You didnt mention SoH, but is it 92%? seems like e-GMP cars degrade alot more than the previous 400V generation from Korea.
The SOH% is currently reading 99.1%.
@@EVCarShare that's very odd considering you think you've lost 6kWh useable!!!!
@@austin2planks Yes. I think it's simply that Kia have programmed it to work out the SOH based on the battery being 70 kWh rather than 74 kWh. I'll know more in a couple more years maybe!
Has he towed a caravan?
No caravan towing here! :)