Jeff Durbin and the True Israel of God
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- Опубликовано: 16 окт 2024
- Jeff Durbin has identified the Church as the True Israel of God, and has stated that it is not possible for the nation of Israel to be considered God’s chosen people. According to Durbin, it is insulting that Christians would think Israel is God's chosen people, and the Bible does not call them that. We review the Apologia Studios episode on Israel and the chosen people of God, asking whether their statements is a fair representation of what Scripture has to say about Israel and the Church.
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Link to Article on Corporate Representation of Christ and a Future for National Israel: tms.edu/wp-con...
Blog Article: Should We Expect a Future Kingdom for Israel? (petergoeman.co...)
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God did choose ethnic Israel for a specific purpose - to bring forth the True Israel, the Lord Jesus Christ. So may we all worship, stand with, and focus on Him instead of ethnic Israel. Thank you.
What if it is not either or, but both and? Scripture elevates Christ as supreme object of our focus, yet we also can appreciate the distinct plan he had for the nations (just like he has distinct plans for individuals).
@@thebiblesojourner Scripture does elevate Christ above everything. But what does the Word of God say in Gal.3: 28-29 and Eph.2: 14-16? Kindly explain. Thank you.
the jews are not ethnic israel. Ethnic israel comprises all 12 tribes from Jacob, not just judah. Additionally, these jews are not who they say they are
@@daneevans7590Khazars. Read Rev 2:9.
Very true!
Jeff Durbin is 1000% correct. How can you be a chosen people of God when you hate God himself. Jesus is God. If you hate Jesus you don't belong to him
Well, the way that Jeff Durbin would respond to that (or should) is that we are chosen before the foundation of the world. So even if we hate God currently, because of God's election we will turn to God. And we are considered God's chosen even prior to salvation, it just becomes manifest later. Same is true with regard to national Israel. That is why it makes little sense for Calvinists to argue this way.
@@thebiblesojourner You just butcher Calvinism... Israel was chosen by God for Gods purposes and glory before the world was even created... Also Israel was chosen amongst other nations in peril to those nations, so here you have election. Election of one nation over the other, Israel over Egypt, or even before Israel, Noah and his family over the whole world... God chose Israel for a purpose and that was to bring forth salvation through Jesus to all not just the ethnic Israel... Election is not in contrast to God's purpose but according to His eternal decree. How that decree unveils is only partially observable because we are creatures bound in time and space. God chose Israel and God enter our world through Israel, the chosen Jews (and true Israel) believed in Jesus as the Son of God and so do the chosen gentiles who are crafted into the true Israel, the Israel that is of faith and not the national Israel just like Abraham..
Also you are not chosen because of whatever you did and is just manifests later and so is for Israel and it makes little sense for Calvinists to argue this way.... Election is of God to whomever He decides for He and only He is God and can do whatever He wants.. Calvinists don't argue from creatures to god but from God to creatures. None knows who is elect until the fruits of the Spirit are visible... No Calvinist claim that ''we know who are the elect'', that's foolishness, to claim what only God knows... So claiming that national Israel is God's people while the evidence is contrary to that is foolishness too and is not even close to contradicting Calvinism...
Separate the promise that was made to Abraham of a people, nation/national Israel/descendants and the promise of the spiritual Israel.. At a time national Israel represented both, when Jesus appeared there is a separation of the two promises in the seance of national Israel continues as a promise to Abraham and those of faith as a promise from the very beginning of creation when God promised to bring the One who will crush the head of the serpent. Adam and Eve were not even Jewish....
Also this is what Paul says everywhere, that those who put their trust in Jesus either Jew or gentile are both one people, the elect, the Bride, the Church. The Bride is not the physical Israel but the Spiritual Israel which consists of ethnic Jews and gentiles crafted into one body the body of the Church and arguing that the physical Israel is still the chosen people of God is to make them part of the Church and that is not consistent with the Scriptures.
Also, do we hate Jews and Israel? Of-course not. Why? Because if God didn't spare the chosen Israel but cut them off and made us (the gentiles) part of Israel we must be stupid to hate Israel.. Also we are commanded to love even our enemies, and all those who reject Christ are our enemies and physical Israel hates Christ so it is both the enemy of God and ours... Saying that Israel is the chosen nation and that Israel is still God's people puts them out of the reach of the Gospel because if they are already part of God's people then why is Jesus needed at all?????? Paul hoped for all his fellow Jewish brothers to be saved and so we Christians hope they will be saved, but saving presupposes something to be saved from and that something is missing if Israel (national) is God's people....
@thebiblesojourner Sorry brother, you are wrong on this topic. God is building one people all under Christ. Ephesians 2:15
@@thebiblesojourner God doesn't save nations, he judges them. If they glorify Him, He protects them, as a King does his Kingdom. The "chosen nation", the "protected nation" is the one that produces His fruit thereof. Is the US producing the fruit with a debt service payment of $1T to the same family that funded the formation of Israel in Palestine while we are #1 child trafficking country in the world?
@@thebiblesojourner Both gentlemen were talking about who the true Jews are? The people during that time were not even called Jews. The people during that time were called Hebrews. I know that if one believes in God, you will be grafted in but there are groups of people still living in Nigeria, Ghana, other African countries, Caribbean and South America who are the true Hebrews by bloodline. Google the Lemba's, I forgot which African country they currently reside in and a great number of them are descendants of Aaron. Aaron was Moses' brother, and they are dark skin Semitic black people. The Lombas was genetically tested by a geneticist from Duke University and the results came back that they are what we call Jews and a large number of them are descendants of Aaron, which is Moses' brother. These people didn't intermarry. Remember that Aoran's line was priests, and you could only be a priest if you were from Aoran lineage. Please google Jews in Africa plenty of videos will pop up. You have a lot of Jewish priests travelling to Africa and agreeing that their practices predate the practices that the current Jews practice. The curse is what make Black Shem etic people look bad, prior to the curse we were God's chosen people, envied by all. The 400-year curse is over and lifted. Black Hebrew Israelites were taken to the Americas in 1619, and in 2019 the curse was lifted this is the reason the truth is coming out.
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. We should not be adding or subtracting from God's word. Judaism is a belief system so unless you actually practice Judaism you are not a "jew." We are all descendants from Abraham, we are all God's chosen under the Israel umbrella.
For this reason, I think we should refer to Jews (those that practice Judaism) and Hebrews (the ethnic/linguistic group).
@@zaoificLike the Apostle Paul @ the end of Acts, right?
I am a 1689 guy myself, but I am Premil in my eschatology. I think one of the issues that arises here in this discussion with my Covenant Theology brothers is the confusion over what is meant by God’s chosen people. Furthermore, I have just finished listening to your discussion with Dr. Vlach on The New Creation model and I think that it is helpful here. Too often those who hold to CT, whether of the Westminster or 1689 varieties, over spiritualize everything and make everything about the salvation of the soul. And when this happens everything has to be filtered through this paradigm. So, when they hear “God’s chosen people” they here “God’s saved people.”
I hope that makes sense.
I really think this is an undervalued perspective-“when they hear ‘Gods chosen people’ they hear ‘Gods saved people’”. Not sure I’ve heard someone phrase it like that before but that seems exactly what’s going on. I really think you have a great perspective on that issue. Thanks for the helpful insight on this.
@@TheEpigone When I hear God's "chosen people", I hear the re-writing of scripture. Particularly Matthew 21:43. Jesus clearly states that the Kingdom of heaven is leaving & going to a "Nation" that will bring forth the fruits thereof. After Christ, the only nation of Israel since is from 1948, formed by Europeans (the Thirteenth Tribe), financed by the Rothschilds. So, who are the chosen people? Is it the descendants of the Khazars from the 8th century, the "Church" or the "Nation" that produces the fruit "thereof?
Jeff is right!
Appreciate your feedback! Which do you think is his most compelling argument?
i find it amazing that as soon as christians preach the truth from the bible, every jew takes offense as if they are special or something? all men are equal before God and no one comes to the Father except through Christ. i am not anti-jew when i preach the truth that the jews rejected Jesus and hates HIm to this day. it is called truth. the Kingdom of God is filled with many nations who are all part of the body of Christ. jews get no special treatment and they all die in their sins, because keeping the law does not save you. the law brought death, but Christ brought grace and those in Christ receives the free gift of salvation
Well, to be fair, I think the exact same thing is true of all peoples. Whether Jew, Muslim Buddhist, Hindu, etc. I have found most people are offended by teaching the truth from the Bible. Because men who are in darkness hate light.
Jeff Durbin is correct. The Israel of God are true believers.
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:28-29
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:12-13
"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham." Galatians 3:7-9
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free." Galatians 4:28-31
The modern state of Israel is secular and therefore cannot be the Israel of God according to John:
"Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." 1 John 23-24
John also warned us of counterfeit Jews:
"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." Rev 2:9
"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." Rev 3:9
This is what Jesus said to the Jews of his day:
"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:39-44
The Israel that crucified their Messiah was destroyed in 70AD for what they did. Why would God bring them back when they still reject His Messiah? That makes no sense. When Jesus comes back the second time, true spiritual Israel will be gathered together and brought back to the land. The dead in Christ will rise from their graves, and those who are alive and remain will meet him in the air. This is the first resurrection of the just which happens at the second coming (1 Thes 4:13-18). "...and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
Thanks for the thoughtful interaction. The only thing I’ll mention is that I don’t know of anyone who believes God will bless unrepentant Israel. The prophets say there will come a time when Israel will look on Him whom they have pierced (Zech 12:10), and then God will pour out His Spirit upon the nation (Zech 13:1-2), and then the kingdom will be established for them (Zech 14; Cf. Deut 30:1-10). The order of events is important: prophesied repentance of the nation first (Acts 3:19-21).
@@thebiblesojourner Ancient Israel consisted of 10 tribes. Ancient Judea consisted of two. After the Babylonian captivity the tribe of the Jews/Yudahites were allowed to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple. What tribes lived in Jerusalem during that time just prior to the crucifixion? If you know, I don’t know. Also, if modern Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy, where are the other 11 tribes? You never hear about any tribe other than Jews, why are they not identified and named?
When Assyria destroys northern Israel most scholars assume refugees from all the northern tribes come and live in the south (ca 722 BC). All tribes are accounted for at the time of Jesus. Paul knows his tribal lineage as did the rest of his contemporaries.
@@TheCrucifixFishTestifies three tribes made up Judah. Judah Benjamin and part of Levi. By having Levi they maintained the Priesthood.
I agree Jeff Durbins presentation was bang on and scripture is very clear on this issue. There wasn't an emotional appeal as stated by the author of this response video.
Romans and Galatians clearly distinguished between physical 'Jews' and spiritual 'Jews'. Paul said a Jew is one who is a Jew 'inwardly' and circumcision is of the heart, not the flesh. He said physical Jews who were not believers in Jesus were not Jews. What did he mean? He meant that in the New Covenant, being an inward Jew is what counted; being a physical Jew DOES NOT COUNT in the New Covenant. The Old Covenant is NO MORE. Conclusion: the physical Jews have no relationship with God. Only inward Jews do, whether they are physical Jews or not. Paul said not all Israel is of Israel (Romans 9:6). In other words, not all spiritual Israel is of physical Israel. It is spiritual Israel which has a relationship with God, NOT physical Israel any longer.
Who was Jesus speaking to in John chapter 3? Physical Jews. You must be born again. Being a physical Jew was not enough. John 3:36 - "He who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." Being a physical Jew was not enough.
The New Covenant REPLACED the Old / Mosaic Covenant.
He said you can't look at someone who rejects Christ and say they are 'chosen'.
Did you watch the video? Yes the Mosaic covenant has been done away with, but the Abrahamic covenant is still in effect. And there has always been a difference between True Jews and ethnic Jews. That’s not unique to the New Covenant. If you watch the video it might help.
@@thebiblesojourner The Mosaic covenant and the New Covenant overlapped. Physical Jews were elect at the writing of Romans 9. But the warning of Hebrews was that physical Jews need to get into Christ. After 70 AD (the end of the age - the Mosaic covenant age) being a physical Jew gave you no more status with God than a gentile. All that mattered after 70 AD is being in Christ through faith. Do you disagree with that?
Thank you so much. I’m glad I got a notification of your channel. God bless your ministry; this discussion really helped me study this subject deeper which was very necessary.
So glad you found it helpful! Thanks for watching. Blessings on your further studies.
In all humility, I think there is a deep jealousy of Israel within the Body of Christ which disturbs my heart. Yes, we see Israel grieving God over and over yet He never completely abandons them. I would say, the Gentiles saved through the Blood of the Lamb (especially myself) have deeply grieved God. Romans 11 seals the deal for me. We are warned not to be conceited because ISRAEL has experienced a hardening UNTIL the full number of Gentiles are saved. Romans 11:26 says the deliverer will come from Zion and turn away Israel’s godlessness. Anyway, thank you again. This study was so interesting.
@@Weissguys6 NO. It is about being true to God's revelation.
Answering minute 16:40…Durbin is refering not to his imagination, but to Galatians 3:16 He does not say “and to seeds,” as though referring to many, but referring to one, and to your seed, who is Christ.
Exactly - how does he go to Deuteronomy, but ignore Galatians. Galatians 3 clarifies who the covenant truly belongs to and who is the fulfillment of it. Moses could not have known this
Wrong to make people think they are jews but they are saved through Jesus Christ.
Amen, there is salvation in no other name.
While I may disagree with your position, I really appreciate you interacting with the apologia crew in such a charitable way. I wish this was a more common between believers on the internet.
That’s very encouraging and kind of you to say, Josh. You sound like someone I would love to disagree with! 😀 Thanks for being a good example of Christian love even in the comments.
Why do you disagree with him? I would like to see Jeff debate this topic
I also disagree with your position but God bless you ❤
1. Deuteronomy 14:2 (New International Version):
"For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the Lord has chosen you to be his treasured possession."
2. Isaiah 41:8-9 (New International Version):
"But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend, I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, 'You are my servant'; I have chosen you and have not rejected you."
@@destinybaron5115Good Biblical cosmological scriptures as well.🎉😊
What I find interesting is that many Reformed/Calvinists/etc., who believe heavily in election/choosing/predestination/etc., yet are almost totally blinded to God's working with Israel throughout history and especially on into end times fulfillment. I think our beliefs lift up God's sovereignty much higher, and put it on display, more than their beliefs.
It is fascinating 🤨
Excellent analysis, brother. In “Essays in Honor of J. Dwight Pentecost” S. Lewis Johnson points out exactly what you’re saying (in reference to the mishandling of Gal 6:16) as the fallacy of the undistributed middle. You helped solidify my understanding with more examples of this particular fallacy in other portions of scripture.
Is your Th.M. thesis summarized in the second article you posted or is that article building on Vlach’s paper? Just curious because I would be interested in reading your thesis or even a summary of your thesis.
Again, I appreciate your care in handling the text and charity with our reformed brothers. Thank you for taking the time to tackle this subject head on. To God be the glory!
Thanks for your encouragement, brother! The second article I posted is actually a summary of an academic article I published a few years ago: petergoeman.com/papers/implications_of_kingdom_goeman.pdf. It is largely independent of Vlach's paper.
My thesis was on the Davidic covenant and I argued that Davidic kings were corporate representatives of the people (even in the Old Testament). If you email me I'd be happy to send it to you.
Speaking of fallacy. He brings up the fallacy of "proof texting" @ 26:17 in the video but then he tries to shut down my views by proof texting and not only that but making ad hominem attacks on my character as opposed to pointing out the flaw in my argumentation. Just saying he's not that on point when it comes to avoiding the use of logical fallacies.
Who is now the King of Israel in John 1:49? Is the King of Israel now the Head of the Church, and are we His Body? Why did God allow the Romans to destroy the Old Covenant temple and the Old Covenant city, about 40 years after His Son fulfilled the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 in blood at Calvary?
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, man-made Bible doctrines fall apart.
Let us now learn to preach the whole Gospel until He comes back. The King of Israel is risen from the dead! (John 1:49, Acts 2:36)
We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24.
Who is really teaching “Replacement Theology” ?
(Did God fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary? Matthew 26:28, John 19:30)
The advocates of modern Dispensational Theology often accuse others of promoting “Replacement Theology”, or some may even say “Antisemitism”. What does the Bible say about their accusations?
1. Who is replacing Christ as the seed of Abraham through which all the families of the Earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3, with Abraham’s modern descendants? (See Paul’s interpretation in Galatians 3:8, 3:16.)
2. Who is replacing the one people of God in John 10:16, with two peoples of God ?
3. Who is replacing the one seed (Christ) in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds?
4. Who is replacing the children of the promise in Romans 9:8, with the children of the flesh?
5. Who is replacing the faithful “remnant” of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, with the Baal worshipers?
6. Who is replacing the word "so" in Romans 11:26, with the word "then"?
7. Who is attempting to replace the Church made up of all races of people, with one made up only of Gentiles? Why did Peter address the crowd as “all the house of Israel” in Acts 2:36, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ on the Day of Pentecost?
8. Based on Hebrews 9:15, the New Covenant cannot be separated from the Messiah’s death. Is the covenant in Daniel 9:27 connected to the Messiah’s death in Daniel 9:26. Is the covenant with the “many” in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the “many” in Matthew 26:28? If it is, some have replaced the New Covenant in Daniel 9:27 with a future covenant made by an antichrist not found in Daniel chapter 9. (See the 1599 Geneva Bible used by the Pilgrims.)
9. Those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology often accuse others of teaching “Replacement Theology”, but are they the masters of it? Are they promoting a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race? (See “genealogies” in Titus 3:9) Is the most important genealogy in the Bible found in Matthew 1:1? Is God's Son the ultimate fulfillment of Israel? Why has the modern Church done a pitiful job of sharing the Gospel with modern Orthodox Jews? Why would someone tell them they are God's chosen people and then fail to share the Gospel with them? Who is the seed of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15? Who is the "son" in Psalm 2? Who is the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53? Who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34? Who would fulfill the timeline of Daniel chapter 9 before the second temple was destroyed? Why have we not heard this simple Old Testament Gospel preached on Christian television in the United States on a regular basis?
10. Watch the RUclips video “Genesis of Dispensational Theology” to see the origin of this man-made doctrine, which is less than 200 years old. It was brought to the United States about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby. The doctrine was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and then spread through much of the modern Church.
Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas Texas was created in part to promote John Darby’s Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology.
Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church:
“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.
Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”
Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.
John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…
"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”
John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25
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Are there two peoples of God in John 10:16? (See also 1 John 2:22-23, 2 John 1:7-11.)
What is the land promise to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?
(See what Joshua said about the Old Covenant land promise in Josh. 21:43.)
Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, is this earth “eternal”? Will it be replaced by a new earth?
Based on Acts 2:36, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3, can faithful Israel and the Church be separated into two different groups?
Who is the New Covenant promised to in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and is it fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24?
Will modern Orthodox Jews ever be saved outside of the New Covenant Church, if the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20? (See also 2 Thess. 1:7-10) If the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant “obsolete” in Hebrews 8:6-13, why would God go back to the Old Covenant system during a future time period?
Read the recent book "The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism", by Daniel G. Hummel.
The problem is you can take away Gal 6, but the Hebrew scriptures and numerous other places clearly infer that the church of God under the NC is Jew and Gentile in one body and there is no longer a fleshy Israel in relation to God. It ended when Jesus spoke of no longer marrying and giving in marriage in the NC. i.e. Jews are not the people God through having children..The Jew is one inwardly.
Hence, since there is no end to this NC or age (kingdom has no end), we are not to look for some great futuristic work of God in relation to a nation of Jews from Europe living in Palestine.
Very well done Dr. Peter. Thank you so much. I’m a minister to the Jewish community and a Jewish believer in Jesus myself and with the massive increase of anti Jewish sentiment messages like this are invaluable.
I appreciate the feedback, my friend. Thanks for your work among the Jewish community, especially in a time like ours. Although the vitriol against the Jewish community is not surprising, it remains disheartening. Keep up the good work in sharing the good news of the Messiah.
This has nothing to do with anti Jewish sentiment at all. This is simply reality. Jews need their messiah, Jesus. Without Jesus, not even Israel can be saved. Wouldn’t you agree? Are those in Hollywood which are Jews automatically saved just because they are Jewish?? Is Howard Stern saved because he is Jewish?? That is what we are simply saying. It is not about “ hating Jews.” It is simply reality. ALL need Jesus in order to be saved, including Jewish people.
Dr. Goeman, thank you for your ministry on this channel. I am grateful for the ministries of Jeff Durbin, but differ with his covenantal hermeneutic. I would love to hear a program on the theology of the rebuilt temple and how those sacrifices in the future will not be in conflict with the sacrifice of Christ as the once for all sacrifice for sin. Thank you again. Your podcast is a blessing!
Blessings to you, my friend. Yes, we have a lot to be grateful for in Jeff Durbin. I recently did a video on the Temple and Sacrifices. You can find it here: ruclips.net/video/yTD4x5-qij4/видео.html Hope you find it helpful.
We are all servants of Jesus Christ it's our duty to teach about true Christianity.
If you read the book of Ezekiel it clearly says about how God will punish the Jews of Israel if they do not accept the laws which were given to them by the 10 commandments.
Excuse me? God will be punished?
Agreed. We must teach the truth.
Sorry typo error
In the Old Testament also the prophecy of the the birth of Messiah
In Isaiah
Jeremiah 31vs15
Micah. 5 vs 2
The reason for this is to save the Jewish people it's in the book of John Chapter 3vs 16 For God so loved that world, he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,but have an eternal life.
Thanks for this! This gives me a great help in a debate I'm doing on, as they call it, the "two people of God." Any other places to talk about that you would suggest not in the video?
Nothing comes immediately to mind. It kind of depends on context. I was interviewed on the issues of dispensationalism here if you might be interested: ruclips.net/video/lnNc4FffzOg/видео.htmlsi=MF-8dOHlzuPXbZug
Very well spoken, no condescending speech, and I think the expiation is very good.
Really appreciate that, thank you for watching.
What's weird is how most of you have an unhealthy focus almost to the point of worshipping Israel
I’m a little confused sorry-did you watch the video? The video is simply addressing the question of whether national Israel can be biblically identified as Gods chosen people while they are in rebellion and sin against God and under his judgement.
@@thebiblesojourner If you lived in 1900 would you have made this video?
@@daveonezero6258 Yes dumb dumb read. Ezekiel. specifically 36-39. where it mentions unwalled cities in Israel attacked by 5 nations.
Mercy and Peace upon the Israel of God
Amen.
Mercy and Peace ARE on the Israel of God - His blood bought church.
@@SavedByGraceAlone92 🙏 🙏
"The point is that they can still sin"....... If they are outside of Christ, they are IN sin.
Yes, Israel should be called to repentance and to embrace their Messiah. They are not just in rebellion currently, but also under God's judgment.
So do followers of Christ my guy. God has not castaway his people.
Agreed on most points. I don’t believe that Peter’s reference to being a royal priesthood applies to the church known as the body of Christ though. I believe Peter was writing to the Israel of God among the diaspora (see 1 Peter 1:1), and that it applied specifically (and only) to the Israel of God then, as well as in the future.
I was kicking myself for not mentioning that many people hold to the audience of 1 Peter being Jewish. I should have mentioned that but I was trying to land the plane too quickly. It is certainly a worthy viewpoint and should be seriously considered. Thanks for bringing that up!
I agree. That's the argument I make in my book on Pauline Dispensationalism. Paul never refers to the Church as a nation; rather, he always refers to the Church as Christ's Body. Keeping Peter's audience in mind is key.
@@carolberubee4431 Exactly. I didn’t want to sound like I was advertising, but I wrote about the topic in the first chapter of my own book as well (“Bible truths you won’t hear at church”). Understanding who a specific book of the Bible was written to, or even who a specific chapter of a book is about. makes all the difference when it comes to exegesis.
If this were true why is the Book of Hebrews in the bible?
@@daveonezero6258 I’m not sure I understand your question. It was for the Hebrews.
Just curious, can you give me verses in the New Testament where Paul calls gentiles “Jews”? Why does God continue to refer to gentile Christian’s as Gentiles?
It seems to me this is a significant issue for those who want to argue that Gentiles are to be called Jews. Arguably, with few exceptions which are debated passages, when Paul has no problem being abundantly clear about his reference to Jew and Gentile.
@@thebiblesojourner on several occasions he refers to unsaved Jews as Jews and saved gentiles as gentiles. This position saying “they are not even Jews” is anti semitic. I don’t usually like to say this but in this case it is. If I tell the Japanese people they are not even Japanese, that would be anti Japanese, and extremely insulting. These guys are arrogant, just listen to how they talk. Sad but maybe they will reconsider
@@pastordavidberman2091 Which is why paul is saying in romans not to boast because the natural tree and it's root supports gentiles of faith. Paul is correcting in Romans what the replacement theology believe. He is essentially telling the Roman chruch not to believe they have replaced Israel and here lots of people who are reformed, catholic, and orthodox are still making that same mistake that paul told them not to make.
I think we simply think tooo much! What did God say after Israel -Judah worshipped idols, put their sons through the fire and did not keep the Sabbath...did he REJECT them??? No he did not!
If you have any issues with this then just read Jeremiah 33:25 “Thus says the Lord: ‘If My covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth, 26 then I will cast away the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his descendants to be rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will cause their captives to return, and will have mercy on them.’ ”
Powerful passage!
God rejected the covenant they were under. They broke it and now there is a new covenant with different stated terms and outcome. They are free to enter into this covenant as any other people. They then become a chosen people once more.
Also if people would carefully read Rom 9, 10, and 11, it would be helpful.
Excellent review. Very helpful for me. We need part 2 on their talk on the sacrificial system and the tribulation!
The Book of Hebrews already confirms what was prophesied in the Book of Daniel. The sacrificial system has already been done away with because the Lord Jesus Christ paid for sin once and for all.
True Isreal is God's elect. There is no longer Jew or Gentile. The Bible us clear on that. If your his chosen elected people you are a son of the King. A non believing Jew is not a son of the King.
Would you say that unbelieving Jews could be called sons of the kingdom though? Even in their unbelief? They are after all recipients of the kingdom promise.
@@thebiblesojourner Yeah they brought Jesus into the World. B ut once he Died and was Resureccted he was clear that following the old laws is dead. What promise would they get?
@@thebiblesojourner No they are not. If you are not born again you have no salvation and you are not Gods people whether you are a natural jew or not. What is so hard about that?
It is written that God's chosen people are those whom Jesus chooses to reveal the Father to, aka "Christians." It's in Luke 10:22. It's a pretty self explanatory verse. Either you believe it or you don't. It's as simple as that.
Thanks for commenting! Did you watch the video? I quote a lot of other verses where God uses the word chosen as well. Do you think I understood those correctly?
@@thebiblesojourner I watched some. I noticed you quote Paul a lot. I do not believe Paul was of God. I view Paul as the wolf Jesus prophesied in John 10 that would come to scatter His flock (in Ephesus, Revelations 2:1-7) Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin whose tribal animal is the wolf. I do not believe the road to Damascus story. In fact Paul tells it in 3 ways all of which contradict each other like would the tall tales of a liar. After all Jesus did call the Pharisees liars and children of the devil (John 8:44) and Paul was indeed a Pharisee. To simplify I believe Jesus' words about the Pharisees, not the words of Pharisees about Jesus, whether it's Paul, Saul or Joe Blow from Columbus, Ohio. Paul's long winded writings I find annoyingly self congratulatory, very incoherent and full of hypocrisy and self refutation. To me his writings read like something a left wing nut job college professor might write. I would encourage you to research examples of differences between Paul's teachings and what Jesus taught. There are a quite a few and several where Jesus and Paul's teachings are the exact opposite of each other. That would be because Paul was the Adversary. Peter even called Paul "The man who is my enemy." And Jesus said Peter is the Rock on which He will build His church. So I find it funny that 99% of "the church's" foundational teachings are from the writings of Paul. Did Jesus lie to us about who was being given the keys to the kingdom of heaven? Or is Paul the Pharisee, the one who is the liar. I am trusting in Jesus' words. Not Paul's because they do not line up with the Gospels, "line upon line and precept upon precept."
@@thebiblesojourner I have some teachings on my channel as well if you' like to consider the possibility I might know something you don't. I've seen Jesus and angels. How I say I learned scripture is from being taught by Jesus through dreams and visions, etc. I don't go to church. If people think I'm pulling their leg or something that's fine. What I preach is seeing God and hearing God, though, as a foundation. Not a how to. I preach you need to and if you don't want to there is a darkness inside of you that won't allow that desire to fill you. That darkness is unbelief. Unbelief that God would appear to you and speak to you if you sought Him for that. Most don't. Most won't.
@@Chad_Fuckhammer Well, if I can be blatantly honest with you... if you reject Paul as being an Apostle of God and inspired by the Holy Spirit, then you have nothing to contribute to my understanding of God. You literally violated the most basic rule according to Scripture:
1 John 4:6, "We are from God. ; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error"
1 Cor 14:37-38: "If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that . If anyone does not recognize this, ."
If you are not letting the Bible give you your marching orders you are just inventing whatever you want out of your mind, and I have no interest in that 🤷♂ I am, however, always looking for further instruction on the Bible and how I can better learn from God's Word. I hope you will humble yourself one day and God will open your eyes to the truth. Thanks for the interaction.
@@thebiblesojournerWrong, wrong, wrong! 1 John 4:6 refers exclusively to the prophets of God. Those who have "heard His voice" and "seen His form." You are not a prophet. What 1 John 4:6 means who ever refuses not listen to those who have seen and heard God's voice says is not of God which contrasts Matthew 10:40 like the other side of a coin. And not just that the fact that I won't won't listen to you is evidence I might be listening to God instead of you. As it is written "My sheep hear My voice and the voice of a stranger they will not follow." I don't know you. You are a stranger. But really this all goes back to Luke 10:22 which describe who God's chosen people are; Those whom Jesus chooses to reveal the Father to (the prophets.) You were not chosen. You are not a prophet. Jesus has not revealed The Father to you. And you are pridefully attributing verses to yourself that do not apply to you in the way they applied to those they were written about (the prophets) when they were written. You are in fact twisting the scriptures to fit your lack of experience and lack of things in common with the 12 disciples of Jesus.' The number one thing they all had in common is they all "heard His voice" and "saw His form." "You have never heard His voice nor seen His form, 38 nor does His word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one He sent. 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about Me, 40 yet you refuse to come to Me to have life." John 5:37-40. I have seen the Christ I'm talking about. You have not. I do not believe eternal life can be had by studying the Bible apart from having "heard Him" and "seen His form." You do. Like new wine poured into an old wineskin you cannot contain the true meanings of Jesus' words because they condemn you and exonerate His prophets, those Jesus has chosen to reveal The Father to (Luke 10:22, Revelations 19:10, Isaiah 30:20) And, yes, I do acknowledge that those who will not listen to God's prophets are not of God. (1 Corinthians 14:37-38) Ironically Paul would not listen to Peter or John Galatians 2:11-21, Acts 15:36-39. If you knew the Bible well as you think you do you'd know already that he wouldn't. By the way Paul's account in Galatians 2 about His dispute with Peter contradicts Acts 15. Peter said that God does not discriminate between Jew and Gentile and he told people not to discriminate. In Paul's own writings (Galatians 2) he accuses Peter of being discriminatory towards Gentiles which proves that Paul is a liar like his father, the devil. Acts 15 and Galatians 2 alone prove Paul hated Jesus' disciples and would not listen to them and that much to the contrary Paul would slander them and try to turn their allies against them like he turned Silas against John and like he tried and failed to turn Barnabas against John; John who wrote the Book of Revelations on the island of Patmos. It is simply not possible to agree with Paul, Peter and John's versions of Jesus all at the same time. You either have to go with Peter and John's Jesus or Paul's. Jesus founded His church on the authority He gave to Peter (Matthew 16:18). If you want to believe the written lies of a Pharisee that's all on you, dude. I choose to believe that what Jesus said about the Pharisees is true.
Thank you for your videos. Do you have book recommendations to help better understand and defend dispensationalism?
Anything by Michael Vlach is excellent to better understand dispensationalism. He has two particularly helpful small books. One is Dispensationalism: essentials and common myths. And another is Dispensational Hermeneutics. Those would be great places to start. On my website (petergoeman.com) you can search dispensationalism and I have 6-8 posts which cover helpful aspects of it too. Hope that helps!
@@thebiblesojourner Very helpful. Thank you for taking the time to respond! I have one of those books and will go to your website as well. Much appreciated.
@@ryanwann6442Happy to respond whenever I have the time. Thanks for the interaction and being diligent to study for yourself.
Why do you need books? If it is in the Bible read that.
And if that is what you want go to Scofield.
@@daveonezero6258 So you read the entire Bible and come up with Scofield’s conclusions? The host of the RUclips page most likely does not agree with Scofield. Also, Scofield has an original study Bible and a 2nd edition. Which one?
The Apologia video was odd. All of those guys, who are Calvinist, argued against Calvinism throughout the show. At one point, Durbin actually says to stop calling the elect the elect. It was bizarre.
It was certainly was not their best episode. But I think its hard to make a "good episode" on this issue if you are arguing Israel doesn't mean Israel. Hard to be consistent on that issue.
This is what happens when you have a particular doctrine to uphold rather than let the Bible speak for itself. Durbin's Calvinism is perhaps not robust enough to overcome his view of Israel. Remember, Durbin says that dispensationalism is gnostic, and he seems to have more passion on that issue than he does on being a consistent Calvinist.
@@thebiblesojourner Who exactly is Israel today? The people of mostly European descent with semetic ancestry through male/patriarchal bloodlines, who immigrated into modern day Israel in the early 20th century? You are certain they are the specific tribe from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who inherited the covenant?
@@datubeda Yes. Jews have been very resilient about staying together as a community since 586 BC when they went into exile. Pretty easy to verify. I would recommend doing some research into the Jewish communities during the diaspora up through the middle ages, even into today.
@@thebiblesojourner So Ashkenazis are the same as that once semetic tribe, got it. What percentage of Jewish ancestry constitutes being "Jewish"; any? Is that consistent w/ God's OT declarations regarding intermarrying? Men took local wives during the diaspora... how does that square with the Jewish belief that ones 'Jewishness' comes through the mother?
Thank you! Clear and kind.
Glad it was helpful!
The Truth of the word isn't meant to be nice and kind.
Hey Peter Goeman, are you aware of a dispensational critique, review, or interaction with the works of Jason A. Staples? His two books on this topic are:
1. "The Idea of Israel in Second Temple Judaism: A New Theory of People, Exile, and Israelite Identity" (2021)
2. "Paul and the Resurrection of Israel: Jews, Former Gentiles, Israelites" (2023)
From my understanding he is not a covenant theologian; he is a biblical scholar who also does not align with the traditional or New Perspective on Paul. It seems he is approaching the Israel/Church distinction from a different perspective than Reformed theology and dispensationalism, so I thought it would be interesting to hear any interaction with his work from the dispensational side. Any resources or your take on it would be very much appreciated.
Thanks
Hmmm, not off hand. I will keep my eyes and ears open. If I get time perhaps I’ll attempt a review at some point. Thanks for the idea.
I think after listening to both sides the stronger argument is that the church is true Israel
Good on you for listening to both sides! It is definitely an involved debate. I enjoy a healthy discussion on the issue and am thankful for those who have carefully worked through the texts in presentation of their view. I pray you keep studying well. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for this excellent teaching and clarification on Israel's calling and election! Very well explained!!
Really appreciate the encouragement, praise God you found it useful! 🙏
Great episode! I always appreciate your insight!
Really appreciate that, Aaron! Great to hear from you. Hope you and the Z clan are doing great 👍
Yeah, but he proof texts even though he discourages others from proof texting. He did it to me to try to shut down my views. And besides proof texting he also resorted to making ad hominem attacks on my character instead of actually debunking my argumentation. 26:17 into the video is where he brings up proof texting. If you ask me preachers that don't practice what they preach aren't really all that great at proving themselves right about God. I'd say they're much better at proving themselves wrong about themselves.
I am always amazed how such brilliant and faithful men of God can be so blind to God's absolute necessity to literally fullfill ALL His promises to the literal nation of Israel and the literal Jewish people. Thank you for the episode!
It is a great reminder to be humble and seek to remove our own bias. We must saturate ourselves with Scripture and read it without presupposing what it means. We are all guilty of being blinded by our biases at various degrees. But sadly some people are more prone to this than others. Glad you found this episode helpful!
Thank you for the reminder. I have come out of the hyper-charismatic movement so I am very aware of personal presuppositions and blind spots and walk in a constant state of truth correction.
Bunch of CI Scofield hooplah
Amen!
God´s faithfulness to His promises to the Israel is our assurance of His faithfulness to us.
If God can reject His people, He could also reject us.
@@thomasfryxelius5526 If He never speaks to you He already has rejected you.
Thank you so much sir for this excellent presentation. I have been looking for sound Biblical scholarship on this topic. Considering the current events transpiring around us, the church needs to understand what the word of God says about Israel. The division among professing Christians pertaining to this matter is distressing. I have never seen such vitriol expressed at Israel and Jews in my lifetime, especially on social media. And yet so many scriptures clearly express God's plan for national Israel, including Genesis 35:9-15. Blessings to you and your ministry.
I appreciate your encouragement. It does seem rather crazy about how the vitriol against the Jews has increased significantly over the last few years. And the difference among Christians on this issue is largely due to differences in how we read our Bibles sadly 😢
Is one’s actions indicative of whether or not they are the people of God you say???
The Bible presents the idea that one's actions can indeed be indicative of whether they are considered the people of God. Several passages highlight the importance of actions as a reflection of one's faith and relationship with God. Here are a few examples:
1. Matthew 7:16-20: “By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.”
This passage suggests that the actions (fruit) of a person are evidence of their inner nature and relationship with God.
2. James 2:14-17: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace, be warmed and filled,’ without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”
Here, James emphasizes that genuine faith is demonstrated through actions (works), and without them, faith is ineffective.
3. 1 John 3:10: “By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.”
This verse clearly states that practicing righteousness and loving others are indicators of being children of God.
These passages and others suggest that the Bible considers actions as a significant indicator of whether someone is truly aligned with God’s will and considered part of His people.
Excellent points! But you do agree that Scripture uses the idea of chosen in multiple ways? For example, believers are chosen before the foundation of the world. Paul’s life was set apart and chosen before birth (Gal 1:15), yet his life’s fruit would not have indicated that until God saved him. So, to be more accurate, the fruit of one’s life indicates whether they are regenerated or saved, not whether God has chosen them for something special. We are so close, but we need to make sure we allow the Bible to define things instead of using our systems to define things. Hope that makes sense.
Can’t wait for this one!
Looking forward to hearing what you think!
@@thebiblesojourner Hi Peter, I’ve listened to the podcast nearly three times through so that I can solidly grasp the arguments against the Apologia position. I think you’ve done a very good job.
One text that hit me recently was 1 Tim 5:3-16
Paul is speaking of widows and calls them widows in verse 3 but then goes on to clarify what a widow is in terms of the dispensation of the church.
Technically a widow is just a woman who has lost her husband; Paul goes on to set out specific qualifications for how the church is to perceive and receive a widow.
In the same way he refers to Israel as not all Israel he refers to widows as not all widows. Surely this is a great example of how Paul uses language as part of his way of expressing specifics rather than as a general expression.
Yes, all Israel are Jews, from the seed of Abraham through Isaac, but only believing Jews really get the blessing. In the same way widows are all left alone through death but only certain widows receive the status of being being helped by the church.
What do you think?
Many would not understand the bible and its secrets cause it's a mystery to many, for the Holy Spirit gives the mystery to those who are seeking, especially the children of Israel!
It is true… much of scripture is a secret to many because they don’t have eyes to see or ear to hear.
How did people join Israel in the past under the old covenant, and would they be considered part of Israel? If one could join Israel in the past under the old covenant, which was passing away, why then would it be illicit for one to join Israel under a covenant that is superior, as the forgiveness of sins and adoption as sons of God comes through Christ Jesus?
This is a great question Matthew. I think it is super helpful and the answer reveals important differences in the issue. (1) Gentiles could be saved in the OT without being a part of Israel or the Mosaic covenant; (2) Gentiles can be saved without being a part of Israel in the NT, but they are included in the New Covenant. Salvation is always by Gods grace through faith, but the covenants revealed in Scripture refer to more than salvation. In fact the Mosaic covenant had no saving component to it. That’s why the New covenant was necessary. One thing that will help is studying the biblical covenants and examine the details. Hope that helps.
@@thebiblesojourner The first part of the question was not answered.
The second part I think was what you mainly responded to, though I found the answer lacking in a certain respect as well, but probably has to do with how the second question was worded. Although the fact that the covenant was literally promised to "the house of Israel and the House of Judah" may have influenced the thought. Pretty much, in addition to the first question: Is it possible for one to become part of Israel today in your view, and if so, not only how, but would they become part of Israel?
@@thebiblesojourner I'm still curious as to how you would answer the questions I asked, of how did people join Israel in the past under the old covenant, and would they be considered part of Israel? And also from your view, is it possible for one to become part of Israel today, and if so how?
@@matthewsouthwell3500 Under the old covenant in the Bible, people joined Israel primarily by birth, as descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Non-Israelites could also join by marrying into the community, living among the Israelites, and following their customs and laws, including circumcision for males (e.g. Exod 12). Depending on the commitment of the Gentile, if they fully proselytized, they would essentially abandon their Gentile identity and embrace FULL observe of Jewish customs. I personally think Caleb in the OT had a father or grandfather who proselytized, but he was probably originally a Canaanite.
Concerning the way to join the nation of Israel today, Israel does have laws for people who convert to Judaism and could become a part of the nation of Israel (I believe), but in order to do so my understanding is that you cannot be a member of another religion (so Christians could never do that). I think the rule is that those who convert through recognized Jewish authorities (Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform, depending on the recognition by Israeli authorities) can also make Aliyah (immigrate to Israel) and become citizens under the Law of Return. But I’m no expert on current law practices for belonging to the nation of Israel, because it doesn’t really matter (see below).
I am not sure why you are asking, but just to be clear, there is no need for Gentile Christians to try to join the nation of Israel since God has always intended to bless the Gentiles AS Gentiles. There is nothing in Scripture about Christians needing to join the nation of Israel, because their status as Gentiles is nothing to be ashamed of. God is the savior of the world and nations, not just of Israel.
Hope that helps!
@@thebiblesojourner This is totally against Jesus teachings. He didn't say "I am the Way except if you convert to the old law, are born a Jew or marry someone. "
And at that time he was only preaching to Jews. So how do you reconcile that. Or does it take a lot of ofther information.
By their fruits you will know them. By their actions, not by faith alone. how can you identify them, can you read the mind and hearts now? Its by behaviour and values and specially love. Lord Jesus great command, Love one another. If you dont have love you are a liar and the Lord is not in you. If you spit and call names on another fellow human being created in the image of God you are not the chosen. Jew, Gentile whatever, your nationality is not important. You need Christ and follow him. Period.
“You need Christ and follow him. Period.”
Amen! If someone has a problem with that I don’t know what to say!
@@thebiblesojourner God bless you brother. Jesus peace be with you.
@@All_Praise_The_Creator And you.
Just because Abraham was called by God, does that mean that Abraham was then accepted by God (redeemed) at that moment? Hebrews 11:8 mentions Abraham's obedience to his calling. Many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14). It seems that all people are actually called...(Acts 17:30; Romans 10:18)
At 33: 40 of the Apologia video I think Durbin lays it out as clearly as it needs to be. I could not help but notice your somewhat snide comments out camera angle, etc. to drive home your point. Also, you continually referred to hermeneutics but never Durbin’s exegetical approach. You know full well his use of Jesus’ comment about rocks.
In Romans 2 and especially Romans 9: 6- 13 , Paul clearly and distinctly settles it.
Well if you watched the whole video and heard my take on Romans 2 and 9 there’s not much else I can say. I would recommend Vlach and Fruchtenbaum if you are interested in exploring it more.
Durbin butchered this so badly. The real Israel referred to in scripture ie. not all Israel are Israel are those Jews who believed. That is why it states that not all who came from Abraham were Israel. God chose the line of ISaac to carry on the Abrahamic covenant and for the Messiah to come from. Likewise he did not choose all of Isaac by just the line of Jacob too carry on the Abrahamic covenant. NOw for salvation it is those Jews who believed as Abraham did that are the true Israel.
He says you are either for me or against me. You can’t be both you are a child or an enemy of God. Paul clearly teaches in Romans 9 & many other places who true Israel is. Those with the faith of Abraham those who believe in Jesus. He is the only way one can be saved. 1 John says anyone who doesn’t believe in the deity of Jesus is an Antichrist. True Israel today isn’t the modern state of Israel. It’s a spiritual group of Jews & Gentiles who have overcome & been set free by the blood of Jesus. Either all who believe & call upon Jesus is true Israel or the Apostle Paul was deceived. You decide! God Bless
Appreciate the comment my friend. I agree with a lot of what you say, but we need to be careful not to conflate categories. There are multiple senses of the word "chosen." Israel can have a special role to play, while at the same time we should be adamant to agree with your statement that salvation is found only in Jesus Christ! Amen and amen.
@@thebiblesojournerAmen! Jesus truly is the new Israel. He is the only way one can be saved.
I have thought the same things. I saw the portion where Jeff brings out Jewish people spitting on Christians and saying, "These aren't the people of God." My response was to look at Romans 11:25,28-29
"Blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the gentiles has come in...Concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sake but concerning election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable."
What Jeff observes is that very partial hardening that doesn't remove them from being the people of God not in a current salvific sense but in the same OT sense that will result in the same repentance Paul predicts in Romans 11:26.
Good job. Finding that claim annoying, fringing on arrogant, boasting... I'm very Romans 11... a sad wonderful letter to Jews and Israel.
We are glad you found it helpful!
Love me some Jeff Durbin, one of the only true teachers of the Bible
There is a lot we can be thankful for in the ministry of Jeff Durbin!
Durbin butchered this so badly. The real Israel referred to in scripture ie. not all Israel are Israel are those Jews who believed. That is why it states that not all who came from Abraham were Israel. God chose the line of ISaac to carry on the Abrahamic covenant and for the Messiah to come from. Likewise he did not choose all of Isaac by just the line of Jacob too carry on the Abrahamic covenant. NOw for salvation it is those Jews who believed as Abraham did that are the true Israel.
@@ejj1939 Yeah but they have to now beleive in Jesus. Most of this was decided and determined before 1948. So our modern interpretraion of Israel the nation state wouldn't even be a factor.
@@daveonezero6258 The modern state of Israel is mentioned in Ezekiel.
If the so called Jews of today are chosen what happens to them who have died without Christ over the last 2000 years?
Is Jesus Christ a liar
For unless you believe that I am HE you shall die in your sins
Or this
I am the way the truth and the life NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME
if these are irrelevant then your so called modern Israel is good to go
I don't know of anyone who argues that modern Israel is good to go. They are in rebellion and sinful, but the prophets say one day they will repent.
Isaiah speaks of a different people who will be the people of God under the NC. So by that alone, we need to look for new people. Acts through Revelation describe them as Jew and Gentile in Christ. Case is closed when you follow Luther on his dictum of letting scripture speak.
That’s a pretty good point. The OT is relatively clear about treating Israel and gentiles as distinct within the New Covenant. They are coparticipants not the nation of Israel.
"What we're going to talk about specifically is whether or not they (Israel) are the true Israel, whether or not they are the chosen people people of God, or whether the church should be identified as the true Israel... According to Jeff Durbin the true Israel would be Gentile and Jew, who are incorporated into the body of Christ the church." - Peter Goeman
Seeking understanding, let's try approaching it this way:
1) In the Messianic kingdom you will have mortal men and women, the natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; saved (Romans 11:26, Zechariah 12:7), regenerated (Ezekiel 36:24-29), and established in the restored nation of Israel.
Group 1 is the nation of Israel (people) in the Messianic kingdom.
2) All the saints in salvation history are resurrected/raptured (Hebrews 11:40; 1 Corinthians 15:23), glorified (1 Corinthians 15:51-53), and become a kingdom of priests (Revelation 1:6; 5:9) in the Messianic kingdom.
Group 2 is the "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16), the sons of Abraham counted righteous by faith (Galatians 3:7), Jew and Gentile, redeemed and freed from sin by the blood of Jesus Christ, including the saints before Abraham (Hebrews 11:4-7)--this is the cultivated olive tree of Romans 11, the bride of Christ.
Both groups result from the promise of people to Abraham through the Seed. Scripture bears out a dual fulfillment of the promises to Abraham through the Seed regarding people (Israel/Israel of God), land (Israel/the whole earth), and blessing (regeneration/glorification).
Blessings
When Zach Conover says he believes he is one of the descendants promised to Abraham, he is correct. He just doesn't see the whole picture.
Both covenantalists and dispensationalists have a piece of the truth, and both have grievous error.
But God!
The brick wall that most dispensationalists run into, leading to unnecessary confusion and division, is the denial that the new testament ekklesia replaced the old testament ekklesia [Note: ekklesia, the Greek New Testament word for "church," or more precisely, "assembly," "gathering," or "congregation," is used 60 times in 56 verses of the old testament (LXX), starting with Deuteronomy 4:10; ekklesia is found 114 times in 111 verses of the Greek New Testament].
Our Lord Jesus states this truth in the gospel of Matthew...
Matthew 21:43-44 "Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him."
Let me share some commentary with you (Note: I don't agree with everything the commentators state)...
"shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof-that is, the great evangelical community of the faithful, which, after the extrusion of the Jewish nation, would consist chiefly of Gentiles, until “all Israel should be saved” (Ro 11:25, 26). This vastly important statement is given by Matthew only." >>> Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., & Brown, D. (1997). Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (Vol. 2, p. 53).
"Our Lord tells them plainly, that God was removing his church from them to the Gentiles, which he calleth a people that should bring forth the fruits thereof." >>> Poole, Matthew (1853). Annotations upon the Holy Bible (Vol. 3, p. 102). Robert Carter and Brothers.
"The words foreshadow the appearance of the Christian church." >>> Morris, L. (1992). The Gospel according to Matthew (p. 544). W.B. Eerdmans; Inter-Varsity Press.
Here is a brief clip from Michael Heiser: ruclips.net/user/clipUgkxUS6ezb-eex5a9ReaMrRr7O4yMtvfmiVu…
I want to address the language brother Heiser uses >>> "I think the church has replaced Israel."
I believe it would have been helpful if he would have stated, "I believe Christians replaced the nation of Israel as the church of God in the new testament," or, "I believe the new testament church replaced the old testament church in God's economy," or something to that effect.
You could also say the new testament ekklesia is a continuation of the ekklesia of God.
The eschatological revelation is multi-layered; we have to qualify Biblical truth with additional Biblical truths in order to gain understanding and see the big picture. It can be very, very difficult to articulate, and that is to the glory of God (Proverbs 25:2).
Where covenantalists are dangerously errant is in regard to Israel; some even state that the church is Israel (the truth is, the saints, all the saints in salvation history, and not the church, are the Israel of God).
Scripture bears out a dual fulfillment of the promises to Abraham through the Seed.
The fulfillment to the natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, is a fulfillment to a remnant of regenerated Jews/Israelites (Zechariah 12:10-14) who cry out, "Baruch haba b'shem Adonai."
Matthew 23:39 "For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"
These natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be saved when the Deliverer comes from Zion...
Romans 11:26-27 "And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, 'The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob;' 27 'and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.'"
This group is prophesied in Zechariah 13...
Zechariah 13:8-9 "And in all the land, declares the LORD, two-thirds will be cut off and perish, but a third will be left in it. 9 This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’ ”
This group is the fulfillment of the prophecy in Ezekiel 36...
Ezekiel 36:24-29 "I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you."
This remnant of Jews/Isaelites will be regenerated and enter the Messianic kingdom as mortal men and women in the nation of Israel.
Jesus is the only way!
Blessings
@@BrotherInChrist at the end of the day, Christians have no business “supporting” the modern, secular, homosexual hub of the Middle East, state of Israel carrying out war crimes right?
The problem right from the jump here is this dude talking about OT Israel as if they were all part of God's chosen people. They weren't. That's literally the point made in Romans 9. Is this guy under the impression all those wicked Israelites are in Heaven? Surely not. That's the entire point. Are there some of God's elect currently living as a Jew in Israel? Certainly. The problem comes when we give the "chosen" designation to an entire ethnicity or nation. Romans 9 teaches clearly that Israel the nation was never God's chosen people. Jeff did a great job and explained this perfectly through scripture. Never made it about emotion either. Not sure what this guy is talking about there. Jeff is 100% right. He never even implied that there aren't people in Israel that are chosen. He's saying the physical nation itself as a whole isn't chosen or special. The people of God are the followers of Christ. Super basic stuff, guys.
Appreciate the interaction. Let me propose a different take on the issue here. The issue is that many in the Reformed world assume that “chosen” means the same thing in every context. But there are different ways the concept of election is utilized in Scripture. Cyrus, for example, won’t be in heaven but he was chosen by God for a specific task. There is individual election AND national election. They are different but not entirely unrelated. An additional consideration is that someone prior to salvation is still chosen by God before the foundation of the world. Their character changes after salvation but they are never not chosen based on their character. We just don’t see it. So too Israel is currently sinful and rebellious as a nation, but because they are chosen they will eventually repent and demonstrate faithful character having trusted Jesus their Messiah.
@@thebiblesojourner I don't know any reformed folks that think "chosen" always means the same thing. Never even heard that from a Calvinist. Obviously the similarities are that when God makes a choice, he is sovereign, and the thing he chooses happens. He chose his disciples. He chooses different people for different purposes. Calvinists understand that.
But the idea that God has some special purpose for the physical nation of Israel isn't Biblical. Seems quite clear just in the various texts that Jeff quoted.
@@thebiblesojourner so I guess yeah, God chose the nation of Israel for a purpose, and they served that purpose. They broke their covenant and demonstrated our need for Christ, and then they rejected and murdered him, which was his purpose, as well. So sure, God chose them for various purposes. I just don't see where they're being chosen for some sort of final redemption in the future.
@@rickstark85 I would read the minor prophets. I just taught a class on them and they are full of rich theology showing the future for a restoration Israel when they repent from their rebellion. One selection out of the numerous would be Zeph 3:14ff, especially v. 20:
At that time I will bring you in,
at the time when I gather you together;
for I will make you renowned and praised among all the peoples of the earth,
when I restore your fortunes
before your eyes,” says the LORD.
Zech 12-14 is obviously huge, and Romans 11. Hope that helps! Lots more, that's just a brief sample.
@@rickstark85 I hope you take time to read through the OT prophets like I suggested. I think that might help.
So you guys believe in replacement theology? I'm so torn on this subject. The Bible seems to give two conflicting positions. Tbh, I wasn't able to watch this entire video because of time constraints, so my comment is based on the headline and the opening statement in the video itself.
Appreciate the question, Jane. I do not believe Israel has been replaced by the church and that there remain promises given to national Israel that will be fulfilled in the future. I recommend watching the video or listening via podcast to hear my assessment of the replacement theology perspective. Also, there are other videos/podcast episodes I’ve done on the kingdom of God and a future for Israel if you’re interested in more.
Pastor Jeff Durbin is correct
Romans 9:6-8 NASB1995
“But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.”
Galatians 3:29 NASB1995
“And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.”
Love those texts of Scripture! Thanks for sharing them.
Great video sir. Thank you for you exegetical work.God bless.
Thanks for the encouragement. Glad it was helpful.
I would have loved to hear your take on a future temple and why you think animal sacrifices are still a necessary component of maintaining a right relationship with God
I just released a new video on that issue!
ruclips.net/video/yTD4x5-qij4/видео.html
I think Durbin is calling out a strain of dispensationalism (A strain that is very popular here in the US.) that basically holds to an "Israel can do no wrong because they're God's chosen people." I don't think that is a fair representation of dispensationalism which could better be framed as "God is not finished with Israel." It would have been better had he called out Christians who put the nation of Israel on such a pedestal but I think his CT presuppositions got in the way. Nevertheless, While I'm a Dispy premillennialist, I'm thankful for his ministry and that our Lord is building His church through both dispensational and CT ministries. Great video!
Well said. I think you hit the nail on the head with that one. Thanks for watching!
It strikes me that one error contributing to their Replacement Theology that they say isn’t (so whatever label they want to give it) is the Roman Catholic belief that there is one universal “church.” Holding to that belief, it’s easier to then substitute one group (Israel) for another (“The Church”). However, as Dr. Bookman (?) pointed out in one of your videos, God created churches. Paul established local churches, not a universal church.
Very good catch mentioning that Jeff is not right about God never calling the Jews "His people" in disobedience. Unless he meant something different it does seem to be straight up wrong.
I do not understand Sojourner's take on Galatians 4 When it says that present day Israel deing children of the slave woman, does that not show that ethnic Israel is not true Israel?
Please study with the grafting in and cutting off is. Is it not the descendants of abraham. And still numerous as the stars. I believe that you are changing their argument in order to argue against it and you don't understand it yourself. No disrespect but you should study much more before you without so many presuppositions coming into it and tradition. God bless you my friend
Todd, I really appreciate your attitude and the way you have constructed your comment to show respect while disagreeing. Thank you for that! I am aware there are more complex arguments and how grating in and cutting off works, but I tried to limit myself to what Durbin was actually saying in this video. I did not change or alter anything that Durbin said. I just tried to play his clip in context. I have had some covenantal friends who have told me that Durbin does not do a good job of representing the position, and they themselves were disappointed with how he spoke in this video. I imagine if Durbin had to do it over again he would probably change some of the things he said. But because he is so popular I just tried to address the arguments he specifically made in this video. Blessings to you as well, my friend. Appreciate your candor.
@@thebiblesojourner He actually talks about the tree and graphting in this video so I'm not sure what you are saying. The tree is Israel. The root is God. Some branches have fallen off (ethnic Jews who don't accept Jesus). Some are being graphted in (gentiles).
Why is it complex? It is in the text.
If you’re witnessing to a person who’s in the bloodline of Abraham, are you seriously going to tell them that they have some sort of privilege or special exemption which will assist them if they die unregenerated and must face God without Christ’s justification?
I don’t know of anyone who would give a different gospel. But I also think Paul would say, “what advantage has the Jew”? “much in every way” and then he would proceed to tell them about how honored they are that the Messiah came from Jewish descent and that they need to repent and put their faith in him. Do you agree?
Are you at the Bible Sojourner a calvinist?
Most calvinists that I have heard embrace replacement theology (or fulfillment theology if you prefer) and it would be nice to know it is not all calvinists.
Well, it partly depends on your definition of Calvinism. I have been called a Calvinist plenty of times because of my belief in God's sovereignty over our salvation, but I also reject many of the Reformed teachings (infant baptism, covenant theology, etc.). So, it depends on how you want to classify Calvinism (but I wouldn't object to being classified as such). Regardless, you are right that the majority of those who identify as Calvinists in the Reformed world embrace supersessionism. It did not used to be that way though. Many of the old guard of Calvinism held to a future for Israel (Spurgeon is just one example of that).
@@thebiblesojourner
Good to hear that there is a calvinist perspective that includes the promises to Israel. It is sad to me that so many calvinists don´t hold to that.
@@thomasfryxelius5526 It is a solid reminder to be getting theology from the Bible and not interpreting the Bible in light of one's theology.
@@thebiblesojourner Well said! This is the first of your videos I have watched and I liked it.
@@thomasfryxelius5526 I hope you will be able to enjoy some of the other material as well. Blessings to you!
Galatians 3:29
“And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Amen. Can't disagree with those texts!
Just, wow... I've got a couple of Michael Vlach books that Durbin needs to read.
To be fair, everyone needs to read more Michael Vlach!
@@thebiblesojourner Well, yeah, of course! No argument there!
the Apostles using OT descriptions of Israel ("Elect", "my people", "chosen race" etc) in reference to the church might not mean that the Church IS Israel, but it does mean something. WHAT that meaning is, I've never heard dispensationalists give a good answer for. Because if they are a DIFFERENT chosen race/elect people then they run into all sorts of theological issues with dual kingsoms/peoples and such. just saying
Nice work. Thank you
We're glad you found in helpful!
I think the one thing I'd say is the same as st. John chrysostom, yes the Jews were very sinful in days past and God always forgive them. However, this isn't the case anymore, His Son is something He will not let up on. Rejecting the Only Son of God is a sin that, even in the scriptures, Moses says, "one is coming after me, you must listen to him, anyone who does not listen to him will be cut off". The Jews have the law of Moses, that is their covenant with God. Yet, without belief in Christ, the ultimate obedience to the law, the law of Moses is only a curse. So, yes Jews have a covenant with God, but it is a curse upon their heads because they spit in Moses' face by saying he didn't know his own Lord.
You are so wrong it's amazing!
Peter, are you a progressive or classic dispy?
Thanks for the question. I’m honestly not exactly sure. I disagree with most progressive dispensationalists on key issues but never find myself agreeing with classical dispensationalists. Some people have said there is a revised version of dispensationalism. That’s probably where I fit… somewhere between progressives and classic.
Yes they were promised, blessed, giving and called children of God.
But, as Moses told them it was all conditional.
To obey, believe and behave as God ask them to do. Did they listen? No.
God sent his Messiah. Did they believe in him? No.
Jesus told them God will take away the covenant and give it to another people, why? Because he was displeased with them.
Time is out for them it’s over.
Jeremiah 33:25-26 (ESV): “Thus says the Lord: If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed order of heaven and earth, then I will reject the offspring of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his offspring to rule over the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.”
@@thebiblesojourner absolutely.
But there are tons of “ifs” makes it conditional.
Do you think rejecting the Messiah which God said if they do, they are out (deut. 18:18)Is pleasing to God?
@@gomadarwish9858 Rom 11:28-29 is helpful: As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Zech 12:10 (& Rom 11) says a time is coming they will repent and turn to the Messiah.
@@thebiblesojourner Jesus said: they are not Abraham children (John 8:39).
They are not special case, when they accept the Messiah then they will be pleasing God till then they are not.
I just happen to stumble on this video and I know little of the two gentlemen involved. It became apparent how easy it is to critique someone when that person is present to respond in kind. You two need to debate each other.
I did find some of your critique a stretch and at times homering in on a part and not addressing the whole point, etc .
I don't know but maybe the presuppositions of both blinds each from good exegesis.
I appreciate the feedback Gary. Definitely willing to have a conversation with them if that would be helpful for people.
It's been 4 months! Where's that video talking about the Temple and sacrificial system that was promised. I need it!😂
Haha, convicted! Okay okay… I do need to do one. I bumped it up on my list. Thanks for keeping on me about it 😀
@@thebiblesojourner jajaja don't worry. I'll watch it when you come to it. But truly, thanks for your work. In a place and time where covenantalism, supercessionism and amillenialism reign supreme you, Dr. Vlach and Dr. Henebury have helped me understand many of its incorrect presuppositions and why they never completely convinced me. Blessings and greetings from Puerto Rico.
@@empese1127 Benediciones para ti mi amigo!
Sorry for the grammatical errors i accidentally press send before finishing my though and correcting the errors but i think you got my point.
No worries. 😊
I do appreciate the manner in which this review was given, very respectfull and kind.
However the flow of the entirety of Romans is that we are all sinners in need of the savior Jesus Christ. It's clear in chapter four Paul is speaking inclusively to Jews and gentiles ( everyone). He is not focused on the nation of Israel and just making an appeal to those within that nation. He is actually expanding the call to all . All who are in Christ Jesus are God's chosen people unto salvation.
For without God's chosen purpose to bring forth the law of God through the nation of Israel .
Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You SHALL NOT COVET."
Are we not one body in Christ ? Was it not necessary for God to bring forth the nation of Israel for the purpose of His will to bring a people to Himself. Are there two different chosen people of God ? Or one. God's chosen people for salvation was determined before Israel ever existed.
Amen to everything you said. I think that’s why conversations like this need to happen. There are multiple uses of “chosen” - it can refer to salvation (both Jew and Greek), or it can refer to function both on an individual level (e.g. Jeremiah 1) or corporate level (Israel). Important not to think ONLY in terms of eternal salvation though (but it is important!).
I think the weirdest connection that they drive is calling it covenantal theology. I intrinsically associate that with the belief that the old covenants are still in effect, but the theology is something else entirely.
No the whole point is the Covenants are kept and promises have been fullfilled.
Minute 23…Paul called himself and the gentiles he was speaking to “the true circumcision” Philippians 3:3
Minute 31…your answer to Durbin’s argument of the rocks doesn’t add anything. Think he’s following the same reasoning of how types of the old covenant found their fulfillment in Chriist, anything to do with race…but all to do with FAITH
Thanks brother. I have had impressed upon me from the Lord in recent months the importance of not just taking people's word for everything and running with it. I did that for most of my Christian life; but the encouragement from the Bereans, which you are taking too, is to be better with our dividing of God's word. Durbin has not done that well at all in the video. I see more ego than sound teaching there.
Very important to do the work and not just take people’s word for things. You will never go wrong digging deep into a subject. Blessings on you my friend.
I am pre-destined to believe in free will.
😆
Dispensationalism is unbiblical.
Thank you for commenting. For my own benefit, when you say dispensationalism is unbiblical what part of dispensationalism do you mean? Do you have a way you typically define it?
@@thebiblesojourner Are you a dispensational premillennialist? Maybe you could enlighten me: My understanding is that they believe that the tribulation is yet to come, which has certain implications but my main contentions would be regarding the position of (a) The state of Israel attaining salvation via some alternative method contrary to what the New Testament says i.e. not by the gift of faith in Christ given by God's grace, (b) Rapturing God's saints into heaven before the day of judgement. Does this not spring from a hyper-literal exegesis of Revelation? I am aware that the Bible is meant to be taken literally in many cases, however, not exclusively. When the Psalmist says God owns the cattle on 1000 hills, obviously this doesn't mean that He doesn't own the cattle on hill 1001. Likewise, Jesus is not a literal lamb with white wool. So I'd say one's subscribed to a dispensational view are cherry-picking which verses to interpret as literal (i.e. a literal 1000 year millennium) from the book of Revelations.
@@robotrobot4430 Appreciate the interaction and opportunity. The idea of a future tribulation period coming is not unique to dispensationalism. Everyone who is premillennial (and even some amill and postmill theologians) believe in a future intense period of tribulation that the world will undergo. The idea of the rapture of the church happening before that is more correctly associated with dispensationalism, although I have friends who claim to be dispensationalist and they do not believe in the rapture, so go figure!
The main hallmark of dispensationalism is the adherence to a literal, historical, grammatical hermeneutic--which necessarily leads to (1) seeing a specific future for the nation of Israel, (2) a specific future for the rest of the nations, (3) a intermediate kingdom which precedes the eternal state. Those are the "necessary" outcomes of the hermeneutic dispensationalism employs.
It is often said that dispensationalists believe in a different path of salvation for Israel, but that is incorrect. Nobody that I know in the dispensational world says Israel can be saved in any other way than by putting their faith in Jesus Christ the Messiah and repenting from their sin. In fact, Zech 12:10 prophesies that is exactly what one would expect to happen in the future--there will be a time when Israel repents from their sin and puts their faith in the "one whom they have pierced."
I do think your critique of "cherry picking" verses to make literal is often true of dispensationalists. It ought to be a priority to engage in consistency. The rule of thumb which I advocate for hermeneutics is that verses must be interpreted in line with the human author's intent. If he intended it to be taken symbolically (it doesn't make sense otherwise), then that's how we should take it. But in many cases, the human author talks about things that should be taken in a simple straightforward sense.
As far as my own views, I get labeled as a dispensationalist quite often. I'm reluctant to embrace the label because of all the negative associations (because a lot of people misunderstand the system--although I guess that happens with any system), but most people would consider me as such.
Is ones actions indicitive that they are the chosen people of God? - yes. If you love me you will keep my commandmants John 14:15. John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me.
You seem to be conflating the ideas of salvation and being chosen. They actually aren’t the same thing. Unbelievers can be chosen for specific tasks and still not obey Gods commands (eg Cyrus in Ezra). Also, we would say that we are chosen before the foundation of the world, but salvation comes at a specific point in time.
@@thebiblesojourner Well yes, taking the calvinistic perspective, we can look at pharoh, the assyrians and Judas all of whom were never meant for salvation but were meant for a divine purpose. However when Israel is claimed as God's chosen people, they are claimed as one that He loves, not a people chosen for destruction such as the antichrist. So I would say that I'm not conflating but rather acknowledging the confines of the zionism generally found within dispensationalism.
Paul covers this is Romans. So many evangelicals miss this.
That's what we discuss in this video 🙂
The question here should be, can you inherit the promises through the flesh or through the spirit? We all know this answer. So there is no way that anyone who is not born of the Spirit will enter Gods Israel.
Well, that is a related (and I would argue more important question). But we still need to address whether Israel has specific promises made to them. Obviously they will never attain to those promises on the basis of the flesh. I hope everyone does agree that only those born of the Spirit can inherit life and the promises.
@thebiblesojourner yes those promises are realized in the millennial kingdom. Not in the democratic modern state of Israel.
You have sojournered your way into idolatry so congratulations
That’s a fairly serious accusation. What makes you say that?
Jeff also did not say that any other nation was a certain soil that God would bless. So when he says that the nation of israel, the land of Israel so to speak was chosen by God, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Israel a people not a land from the beginning and if so then it is irrelevant in this conversation up to this point anyways that Jeff spoke of their sinfulness in comparison to you speaking of the gentiles sinfulness when pointing out that both nations are sinful and he still would be right when he says that Israel the land is not chosen no more than all of the nation's knowing that all our sinful. So when you say the elect is sinful you are correct which really makes his point more than yours.
I'm sorry, brother, but I didn't really follow your argument. I'm sure it is my fault since I'm a little tired, but perhaps if you reworded it I could try again (sorry I may miss the reply though because I'm traveling).
@@thebiblesojourner it would be a good conversation. If you ever want to have it my friend let me know and God bless you also
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion[a] mean!
13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[b] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:[c] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now[d] receive mercy.
Thank you
Glad it was helpful.
Even the chosen can be deceived and teach false doctrine.
I wish you explained the scriptures in the right context instead of just saying durban is wrong
Appreciate that feedback. It is a tough balance on how deep to go. Because Durbin was not exegeting any passages I thought it was appropriate to respond to his shallow arguments instead of giving a full exegesis. But I do recognize that it is much more powerful to make a positive presentation of the text. Another video Lord willing!
In Romans 2:28-29, Paul clearly states who a JEW is and who a JEW is not. "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God." Christians are TRUE JEWS.
dispensationalism just confuse the mater by ignoring NT passages when they look at OT passages. Stop confusing people. Please.
It may have always been the case that the nation as a whole has been in rebellion against God but God has always had his remnant amongst them who is the true Israel.
Think Elijah in fleeing Jezebel after defeating the prophets of Baal.
Paul was an Israelite after the flesh but counted it as dung that he might gain Christ. He was one of the remnant, and Abraham’s child according to the promised seed of Abraham.
Galatians 3:22-29 KJVS
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. [23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
So true! The doctrine of the remnant teaches that there are always genuine believers that God preserves. Praise God for His faithfulness.
Rom 9:22-26 (quoting Hosea 1:10; 2:23) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. [The verses that Paul is quoting from Hosea are clearly speaking of “the house of Israel,” and say that she will be cast off, and no longer God's people; but then restored, and God's people again. Paul is here saying that this restoration of Israel as God's people is being fulfilled by God's calling out a people “not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles”.]
I don’t think I see a problem with that. That is one way Paul could be using Hosea there. He could also be using it as analogy (ie God has complete freedom in choosing who He will to be saved), or Paul could be emphasizing that the people of God does include Gentiles. But in any case, it wouldn’t necessarily lead to the conclusion that ethnic Israel fails to have a place in Gods future program. They have the promises of a king and kingdom which remain unfulfilled.
This passage is part of a longer discussion about Israel and God´s dealings with them. Notice what Paul says in Rom 11:1-2:
"I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? Far from it! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew."
Who are these that Paul calls God´s people in this passage? Jews.
Paul makes the point that he himself is a jew not only inwardly but in blood.
There is a believing remnant among the jews, and that is how God has not rejected His people. Most jews are blinded and cut off but the believing remnant is still there, and in the end God will bring the nation as a whole to repentance (Rom 11:26-32).
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Fantastic text. Thanks for sharing it.
The physical rule of the Israel of God is ushered in by Christ (Joshua). Remember many Israelites were called to the promised land in the Exodus, but only a remnant entered the land. In the same way, many Israelites of the flesh are called to Christ but only the remnant will enter. The caveat here is the mystery explained in the new testament, that the gentiles have been grafted into Israel through Christ. So yes, jews and gentile makes up the Israel of God. And we all shall be saved and enter the kingdom.
These arguments against Israel would be corrected if they believed in all the literal end times prophetic passages instead of spiritualizing them......
It always comes back to hermeneutics
These are zealots who do not represent all Jews. Many jews in Israel respect and even appreciate Christians. Romans 11 tells us that christians were grafted in because of there disobedience. A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the gentiles is completed. Then God will have mercy on them also. You might interpret Chapter 11 different than I do but it seems pretty clear to me that God is not finished with Israel.
Romans 11 does seem to confirm what is all over the Old Testament. I also appreciate your point that not all Jews view Christians the same. I know many personally that love Christians.
The Sojourner's argument is incoherent, confusing and replete with eisegesis. He performed theological gymnastics that were hard to follow.
The land was not given unconditionally. In Ezekiel, it seems the Lord anticipated the reasoning of those who arrogantly claimed unconditional right to the land because of the covenant originally made with Abraham.
Son of man, the people living in those ruins in the land of Israel are saying, ‘Abraham was only one man, yet he possessed the land. But we are many; surely the land has been given to us as our possession.’ Therefore SAY TO THEM, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Since you eat meat with the blood still in it and look to your idols and shed blood, should you then possess the land? You rely on your sword, you do detestable things, and each of you defiles his neighbor’s wife. Should you then possess the land?’ I will make the land a desolate waste, and her proud strength will come to an end, and the mountains of Israel will become desolate so that no one will cross them. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I have made the land a desolate waste because of all the detestable things they have done. (Ezekiel 33:24-26, 28-29).
So, just to be clear, you believe the land promise has not been fulfilled and doesn’t need to be fulfilled? That’s an interesting position. I appreciate your quoting of Ezekiel, but you do realize the book of Ezekiel prophesies both the destruction of Jerusalem and exile as well as the RETURN of Israel to the land. You quoted one passage, but I’ll help you by quoting another. You should read the entire book of Ezekiel. It would be very helpful for your theology.
Ezekiel 36:27-28 (ESV): And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.
God is not reject his people accordingly to Romans 11:1. So I highly doubt he replaced them. Why do you think the story in the bible talks about even the dogs eat crumbs from the masters table. The heathen knew that even they will get partakings of the blessing, and that why Jesus said to her oh how great your faith is caus eshe understood order and her place and she was blessed upon that.
Appreciate you watching and interacting.
My brothers the chosen ones from Jacob decedance period shalom
bro, your argument doesn't hold water. what are you expecting the people of Israel to do after the Messiah has already come?!? NOT sure what needs to happen now? what are you trying to establish? what are you expecting the chosen people of Israel to do more than what Jesus has already completed and fulfilled? the Messiah has already come from the tribe of Israel. is that not chosen enough for you?
A shame, because I love water! But really, the only issue is to read what Scripture has to say about the issue. The OT clearly says Israel is God's chosen people, with a future kingdom and restoration which they can expect once they repent. The NT does not erase that expectation, but continues it. The Messiah is obviously central to that plan (Zech 12:10), but just because the Messiah has come could never mean that Israel has lost its significance in God's plan. That's the issue.
so , when you take communion. do you think you're eating the body of christ in a literal sense, or, you think that is symbolic? because this may clear up how you interpret the bible. I hope at this point you realize that after the resurrection of christ, his body that we eat at communion is symbolic, his blood that we drink is symbolic and the nation of Israel is also symbolic referring to the people who accepted christ. its NO longer a physical place. that is why the temple was destroyed. but the temple of the body of christ is restored and alive. hope that helps.
also, you're saying that the people who rejected Christ are the chosen one? so why are you waisting your time being christian. why not join the chosen ones? very @@thebiblesojourner
@@thebiblesojourner Yeah and the text you wrote clearly said the only way to that Kingdom is through Christ. Jew and Gentile alike. Jesus is the redeemer and their path to repentance just like everyone else.
Israel was significatnt. They Brought Jesus to the world.