Does Hell Make Sense?
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- Опубликовано: 5 ноя 2020
- Hell is one of the most difficult aspects of Christian theology. But it's also hard to know how hell isn't a necessary possibility in a world that contains both God and choice.
The article referenced here is ‘A Losing Battle Against Reality:’ C.S. Lewis on the Nature and Necessity of Hell,” Bibliotheca Sacra 176 (July-September 2019): 327-342.
Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus.
Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.
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--Retrieving Augustine’s Doctrine of Creation: Ancient Wisdom for Current Controversy: www.amazon.com/Retrieving-Aug...
--Anselm’s Pursuit of Joy: A Commentary on the Proslogion: www.amazon.com/Anselms-Pursui...
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We need your take on the book by David Bentley Hart: Heaven, Hell, and Universal Salvation
I struggled w/ idea of an eternal hell for years and almost succumbed to universalism, even though I'm a lifelong, bible based believer. I hung in, prayed diligently on it for those years though. When I saw Howard Storm's NDE testimony, it answered a lot of those questions and assured me that even the most die hard atheist gets a chance, because God knows our hearts. It also really helped to find out that hell is a total absence of God, of God's love and therefore everything good. It's not the caricature of a wrathful and vengeful God torturing us in hell because we didn't find the just right belief system.
I once watched a series of testimonies on NDE and took notes. I came to the conclusion that even if we ignore all scientific evidence, at least 25% of NDE testimonies must be false because of inconsistencies. The different testimonies can't agree on whether heaven or hell exists, whether God has a visible form or not, whether Jesus is God, etc. I concluded probably that NDE come from stories your brain makes up when it's trying to be conscious, but isn't getting the necessary resources to function properly. Maybe the visual cortex, when not able to get visual data, starts talking with other parts of the brain, and that produces the vivid visions that people experience.
I don’t believe 99% of NDE’S , EXCEPT the one of Josh Yunger on Joe Rogan he is still an atheist, even though he literally went to what he described a bottomless pit and it was dark.
It’s on RUclips- Joe Rogan NDE of Hell. I believe that one.
The problem isn’t the existence of hell, the problem is why God would keep people in hell where they will be tormented forever. That’s the problem with eternal conscious torment.
@@vibrantphilosophy there is however the belief held by some that there exists a stage through which they are brought to purification, or some others believe that souls that go to Hell are tormented up until a certain point where they are finally destroyed
That last CS Lewis quote about Calvary was really powerful! Thanks for sharing your hard work and study!
This is a really well thought out and sensitive explanation, thanks Gavin. Perhaps a discussion on the concept of God's wrath would also be a good, separate video, since modern humanity thinks there's nothing for Him to be wrathful about.
These are all so excellent, Gavin. Thank you!
Glad they are helpful Stephen! Thanks!
My "Hell" issues cleared up as I learned that "Hell" is not even a Biblical word.
It is not even a literal translation anymore, since the word “hell” has changed meaning over the last 400 years.
Neither is trinity
Penal substitutionary atonement
Hypostatic union
Godhead (the translation from a word that means divinity)
And the list goes on.
The scripture often speaks to the culture and uses terms to explain realities to those people in a way that they can understand. So what term might they use in a greek culture (which is largely who the new testament was written to and to) and the jews of Jesus’ day? well the answer is easy. They use words like “hades” and “Gehenna”
So in other words, when you properly understand the context of scripture, and love God and trust that He is Just, you cease to make silly excuses as to why you reject His righteous judgement like “the english word hell doesn’t exist in the scripture” of course not friend, its an ancient text originally written to an ancient people in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine greek
As to this erroneous claim I saw someone else make, that the view of hell has changed over the last 400 years or so, no it has not. Scripture has been clear on what Hell is generally since scripture has existed. From Genesis to Revelation. God is not a liar as you so love to insinuate.
What has changed are man made philosophical views of hell. Not the scripture.
@@ScribeintheinkNo, actually scripture is not clear on this topic as it’s not even consistent within scripture. That’s why it is still debatable to this day. It was an idea that evolved over time, and we can see this just in how it changed from the old to the New Testament. One could argue that the ancient Israelites didn’t even believe in the afterlife.
I agree that Hell is one of the hardest doctrines to grapple with. Thanks for sharing this video! Well done.
Thanks Jon!
Most Christians don't know rhe real word meaning that eternal comes from.
Not if you love and trust God
Thank you!
Speaking as a Christian leaning towards universalism, this was a good video, succinct and charitable as always. That being said, I don't feel like its adequate to explain the eternal nature of hell, I certainly couldn't see an unbeliever being convinced here. For starters - CS Lewis' ideas of self exile might be supported by Anicius, but that's just one early Christian among many, and I don't see any Scriptural support for either's position. Lewis especially seems to rely purely on his own reason than any verse in the Old or New Testament.
And on that topic, what I find baffling about the idea of eternal hell is that there are verses in Scripture (Colossians 1:20, Ephesians 1:7-10, Matthew 18:14, Romans 5:18-19 1 Timothy 4:10) that seem to indicate that ALL will be reconciled to God, not just believers. Of course there are passages of eternal hell as well, but my question is: Why would God allow these other verses in Scripture, if He wanted to make the threat of hell and never ending torment abundantly clear? God does not lie, and while someone may be able to interpret these passages in a way that fits infernalism, they could just have easily have been written another way. So it's hard to accept this endless vision of hell, a horror that if true should be front and center of every Bible chapter, when contradictory evidence of another vision exists.
Those are just my thoughts though, I'm certainly no theologian, but I think eternal conscious torment is a much more problematic idea than Gavin or CS Lewis claim.
And this is how you can know that a person like you is not saved and therefore not a Christian. Because instead of believing the God of the universe and what He has revealed in scripture…you look for any man made, philosophical argument you can to justify your rejection of God’s judgement
@@Scribeintheink what a looney conclusion you’ve arrived at.
If you think someone else is damned simply because they hope that souls won’t be tortured eternally, I believe you have a problem with grace and I’d implore you to learn more about compassion before judging the eternal destination of a fellow man. Did God not give us brains to reason and to think with? No one, not even you, understands perfectly everything that you read in scripture.
Also, universal reconciliation was not a heretical view in the early church, from what I gather.
Great video. I'm somewhat convinced by the position of Annihilationism, and would love to hear your take on that. It seems to me that the true extent of the 'extremes' you mention would be existence, or life, on the one hand, and non-existence, or a final death, on the other. And then there is the strong, though imperfect case (IMHO) for Annihilationism from scripture.
You are convinced by men. Not by scripture and therein lies the problem. Scripture is abundantly clear on this subject. Annihilationism is a blasphemous heresy
@@Scribeintheink I've done what I can to steelman the position of ECT (and other forms of hell, purgatory, etc.), and while I can say there is some evidence for each, there is an equal or greater case to be made for annihilationism, scripturally. Have you really given it a fair shake or are you just responding from dogmatism? (Honest question)
One of Dr.Ortlunds best qualities: he’s a big Lewis fan😎
As a young man I rebelled against the choice of heaven over hell. I didn't want either and hoped there were a third choice, but soon realised I needed God to give me that choice. How far down the path of no return do we see our mistake?
Gosh, I had no idea of how much C.S. Lewis was tuned into this. The thought of me or others I especially love, not being with Jesus later is devastating to me. That is motivational. That said, have you heard of Edward Fudge? His interpretation made a lot of sense in light of why hell was made and God's ultimate character of just and good. No less of a judgement, but without the thought of heaven existing along side hell "eternally" yet powerfully sad. I am motivated to rewatch the film about Mr Fudge's research journey and be more thorough in seeing it in Scripture. Thank you for for your quotes and thoughts. Very sobering.
I find Fudge's arguments (biblically and historically) in his book "The Fire That Consumes" extremely compelling. His 3rd (and I believe final) edition includes responses to his critics. As Fudge once said, for believers, it's a moot point, but for our truthful explanation of the character of God, I think it is important to wrestle with. These days, I talk about "eternal judgement" or "eternal destruction" rather than "hell" since I the term is so freighted with what appear to be intellectual "cling-ons" (I think Gavin would say, "accretions") that have been read back into the texts of scripture.
Psalm 139 - Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
It’s a sad, terrible doctrine where sin goes on forever and God has His name blasphemed for all eternity. Where “death” is never defeated. Where the wages of sin isn’t death, but instead eternal life in torturous pain. Where men, women, children, and infants are tortured for doing exactly what they were ordained to do.
Who could like that doctrine? A sadist?
People who like that doctrine are thankful for God’s mercy and rejoice in His justice and righteous judgment
As to those who call God a liar by denying the reality of hell, they are charalatans, false confessors, blasphemers and arrogant people who think that if renounce and reject God’s righteous decree enough…somehow it will then invalidate it. Repent friend or else one day you most certainly will see hell and be eternally separated from the God you so enjoy to spurn now.
@@Scribeintheink Are you the Pope?
Why would anyone choose hell? Did we choose to be born? If we chose to be born knowing we’d end up in hell or at least have a very good chance of ending up in hell that makes no sense. If we didn’t choose to be born then the notion of eternal suffering as most humans will endure makes no sense and doesn’t seem very just either. Which is it????
What you consider “just” is of no consequence since your heart is “desperately wicked” and “does not understand the things of God, but they are foolishness to you. Nor are you able to because they are spiritually discerned”
In other words, you have no authority or right to question what God clearly reveals in Scripture as being just. God has promised that the impenitent sinner will be cast into “eternal destruction” in the greek, eternal is eternal. Forever. Without end. “Destruction” comes from a word that literally is defined as “not referring to annihilation or extinction but a state of ruination”
God is just and your sin, having offended an eternal God, requires an eternal consequence. God will have justice and you will reap what you (speaking generally) have sown.
@@Scribeintheink You just said some of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. And you showed your clear lack of knowledge when it comes to Greek translation.
That comment was so ridiculous it really isn’t worth addressing other than saying SHAME ON YOU!
@@Scribeintheink If our idea of "good" and "just" are not the same as God's version of "good" and "just" then the words have no meaning. Why would God give us descriptions that mean nothing to us? he might as well say he is evil and unfair since it is equally as pointless.
Nicely done. Those who did choose separation from God, if given a chance to change their decision, would not. That's because, at that point in time, the only nature they will have is enmity towards God.
Great way of putting it, really helpful! Thank you!!
I would love to reflect more on the implications of the idea of hell for evangelism. I know that we tend to react strongly against the idea of "scarring people into the Kingdom" but I also wonder about the (close to) disappearance of hell from our evangelistic talks. Do you have ressources you could point me to on the topic?
Thanks Ruben! Yeah, I have found Tim Keller really helpful on this -- he finds a good balance of expressing the idea clearly, but defending it in relation to modern objections, too -- here is one article, hope it helps: www.christianitytoday.com/pastors/1997/fall/tim-keller-preaching-hell-tolerant-age.html
I came to the idea recently that maybe what Jesus meant by hell wasn't a place of eternal torture, but just being treated like trash by God and being thrown away. I have heard that the ancient Jews did not have a concept of heaven or hell. Also, I heard that the "Gehenna" that Jesus talked about was a literal place outside the city of Jerusalem that was a trash heap, and also a place where the bodies of criminals were sometimes tossed.
It seems to me that a benevolent God would want to maximize the good (hence mercy for genuine repentance), and would therefore not be interested in eternal torture. It seems to make sense that if a person bears fruit the way God likes, God harvests him (takes him to heaven), and if he doesn't, God throws him away like trash and he is destroyed. This seems consistent with some of the parables that Jesus said, like with separating the wheat from the chaff, or burning the tares.
I'm not terribly concerned with the correct interpretation, however, since it seems to me that there is so much confusion in the church(s), that probably nobody is being guided by the Holy Spirit, and if Christianity really was divinely inspired, then God was completely content to let us be confused.
I used to believe in the idea of eternal torment, or what we call hell. Hook, line and sinker. But after further we study, I realized this is not the case. I have a video on my channel on “hell” I recommend.
After further “study” you decided God was not just and there was no real consequence for sinning against an eternal God who “deals with the soul after death”
Another blasphemous heretic rejecting God’s righteous judgement in order to comfort himself
A few brief thoughts:
1. It seems somewhat inappropriate to describe as a "caricature" the view that Hell is a place God creates and sends people, given the historical pedigree and prominence of that view. Speaking for myself, I reject the doctrine of endless torment completely, but would feel quite strange calling it a caricature; it's simply a view I think is incorrect. Likewise, I don't think it's correct to say that proponents of that view hold to it without any considerations of the doctrine of God/sensitivity to the rationale behind the nature hell (unless you have random lay-people in mind).
2. Lewis's approach presupposes unconditional, universal immortality (which would be the *third* thing, along with God and choice). I mean, even if hell's gates were locked from the inside, wouldn't the human beings in there eventually die? Once we reject the idea that immortality is a universal trait/gift/expectation, all the Lewisian teachings and metaphors just make more sense: If we're severed from the source of all good things, then we lose all good things including life and existence. If we don't eat the only food the universe grows, we starve and die. If God truly leaves us alone, then he does *not* keep us alive and hold us in existence.
3. Along with coinciding with the biblical teaching on human mortality, the destruction of the damned, and the complete eradication of evil, this view has the added benefit of not being subject to some of the difficulties you alluded to (i.e. revulsion from the idea of endless human suffering and the suspicion that God is unjust if he decrees and secures such suffering).
I find your thoughts very compelling, especially your observation that being existentially separated from God implies the cessation of life, by definition. I'm pretty sure that pagan ideas imported into the church early on are mostly responsible for the now "traditional" doctrines of the immortal soul and Hell. Other influences may include the apocrapha including Enoch.
It's interesting that we sometimes feel like we "have to" make hell scary, or that if our conception of it isn't scary enough then maybe something's wrong and we need to justify it. Not saying it's right or wrong - just an observation. Like the amount of scariness is a general barometer of orthodoxy. Thoughts?
Interesting observation Chase. Yeah, it definitely seems like degree of scariness is a pretty subjective and odd criterion for faithfulness. though I do think if hell is not scary at all to people, we have done something wrong.
Great video. Perhaps my only quibble is at about 3:00 when you say the end state of every individual is to either possess God or not to possess Him. I would flip it a bit and say the end state of every individual is either to be possessed by God (i.e. Truth, Goodness, Love) or not (i.e. Lies, Evil, and Hate).
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 (ESV)
5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering- 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
I can not believe God would let a person exist in a state of deprivation of what and who we need, Him. God knows how flawed in our minds and our will we are. How would He let us go on forever and ever in hopelessness... I believe in annihilationism. God cannot be that mean...
Late to the party here: but for me, what I think of hell hinges on Luke 16. Is it parable or not? I don't know. I want to say it is and I'd likely end up as some kind of annihilationist, but I don't find the typical cues one usually finds in Jesus' parables.
Can you do a video on conditional immortality?
Hell, described by near death, experiences, is like New York in darkness without police.
The Bible clearly states that the gates of the Kingdom are never shut.
6:13 "You would have no authority over Me unless it had been given you from above--therefore, the one who handed Me over to you has the greater sin." Both.
God is who he is. And he is the very definition of good. The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis gives an interesting description.
Rev. Ortlund, could you talk about Unconditional Election teaching before Augustine in the 2nd and 3rd centuries?
Sure he could. Its right there in the Bible. Dates back to as early as 300BC
"...at the end of the day, when all is said and done, that God will be seen to be good."
On that basis, annihilationism is the only reality that makes sense to me; I would abandon Christianity if I didn't (subjectively) know that the lost will simply cease to exist. No eternal conscious punishment of any description. Simple, logical, coherent, and consistent with "God is love" 1 John 4:8,16.
Basil the Great, Letter XLVI, To A Fallen Virgin, describing the lake of fire (which he confusingly calls Hades...guess we've been mixing terms up forever):
""What strength will [that soul] have to endure those endless and I tolerable scourgings in the the regions where fire is unquenched, the worm administers everlasting punishment...and the horrors without end? From these woes there is no release after death, not any device or means of escaping these bitter punishments."
Eternal conscious torment in Basil.
St.Athanasius helped me understand Hell . That man when man sinned we became enslaved to death and corruption and were all headed in that direction until the power of was broken . In the parable Jesus tell us of the rich man and Lazarus there are two sides of hell the side of punishment and Abrahams bussom . When Christ defeated death , hell , and the grave he took the rigthouse out of hell , and into his heveanly kingdom.
That answers NOTHING
Excellent video! Thank you Dr Gavin. I, too, get so much from CSLewis on so many topics including Hell. However, I was surprised to hear you talk about choice as I understand you to be a Calvinist. Doesn’t that teaching say some have no choice and are condemned to Hell even before they are born?
Thanks Sandra! No, that is a common caricature of Calvinism. It does not deny choice. Rather, it sees choice as compatible with divine sovereignty. Hope that helps!
@@TruthUnites Thanks so much for replying Dr Gavin. 🙏🙏
You may want to work on looking in the viewfinder less and the lens more. It helps connect with us better. I'm just getting started too, so I'm no pro.
I struggle with this one so bad. I ask questions like, “Why doesn’t God do more to prevent people from going to hell? Why not show people visions of it? Why not send back emissaries to warn people? But that’s exactly what the rich man asked Abraham to do. And Abraham replied that it wouldn’t work any more than the scriptures do.
So I trust that if hell IS real, which it seems to be from a Biblical perspective, then it is right. We have proven in our society that our intuitions about how to deter and punish evil are ineffective and wrong. I don’t trust my judgment and intuition on this. I just have to defer to God’s. Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?
Here is a good faith question/objection:
If hell is the eternal separation from God (ie no love no light no joy no peace etc) and if life itself comes from God, then how could there be any conscious existence apart from God?
It seems that hell would either not have to be *total* separation from God, OR that those in hell would simply be annihilated and have no ability to experience anything because they would lack the consciousness (which comes from God) to do so.
I thought it rather strange that in a discussion of Hell, no real attempt was made to explain what the Bible actually means by 'Hell.' It is, after all, just a word. In the Hebrew scriptures, the word is sheol and it has no connotation with eternal torment. Rather, it is simply the grave, the receptacle of the dead; the place where all go; good and bad alike, saint and sinner, prince and pauper. In the Hebrew Bible, sheol was associated with a state of unconsciuosness (Eccl9 :5, 10). It was a place where Jacob and Job wanted to go to ESCAPE suffering. In the Hebrew Bible, Man is a soul, like all living , breathing creatures, he does not have a soul. The soul is mortal (Exek 18 :4). The Jews believed in the idea of a resurrection from the dead. Jesus was a faithful Jew and believed in Torah, not pagan Greek philosophy, which now shapes the 'Christian' view of Hell.
In the NT, as well as Sheol/Hades, the word Gehenna also is used. This was- and still is - a real place, the Valley of Hinnom. It is used as a symbol of eternal destruction, a place from which there is no resurrection, unlike Sheol / Hades which give up the dead in them during the resurrection. Indeed, 'Hell' is symbolically destroyed itself in the book of Revelation.
Thus, if you have a biblical view of 'Hell' and understand what it meant to the people in scripture, there is no issue. The God of the Bible is then, not depicted as some cruel sadist who torments people eternally, but as a God who raises people from the dead. The wages of sin was death, not eternal torment.
Was finally able to accept the doctrine of hell after I prayed and asked God if it were true. He led me to BRYAN Melvin's videos and eventually I read Bryan's book.
Basically people reject God because they love the World more than they love God. Christians backslide into Sin and love it more than God and end up in hell also, after knowing God. It is not once saved always saved. God is Good, even when we can't or don't or won't accept a doctrine like Eternal Conscious Torment. It is a relief in a way that Hell is true, but also sobering. Now I must wrap my mind around why some people are KJV onlyists.
Think deeper please
@@user-fc2zb9po8t I have the mind of Christ. He lives in me. It is the Holy Spirit who gave me that revelation of hell. It was not my own thoughts. God bless and have a blessed day in Jesus's name 🙏🏽
Eternal hell vs. annihilationism would be a good topic. Biblically the Bible is certainly not clear on the topic. What’s the view of ones soul. Platonic or not? If Platonic then of course eternal hell but if not then what is eternal life and the 2nd death (is it eternal life but suffering). When I studied it I was suprised by how little there is in the Bible about hell.
Hell and Mr. Fudge. Eternal LIFE is given to believers. Those who don't believe perish, suffer death and are destroyed. We love to go to "separated" instead of destroyed, dead, perish...
If God is Omnipresent and He is then the only way to be separated from God is NOT to Exist. The Bible Teaches Annihilation of the Lost. See. 2 Pet. 2:6...
What if heaven and hell are divided but also are in harmony with one another? One could think of everlasting torment as unfathomable but what about everlasting bliss? I think being forever happy could be just as terrifying. If God is all goodness and He separates Himself from all evil then honestly which one is suitable? I enjoy goodness,who doesn't but if everything was only good and light then how could I ever appreciate the goodness? Wouldn't I eventually find it intolerable? I appreciate pain just as much as I appreciate pleasure and pleasure wouldnt be great without pain. We need this balance. Separation of the two would cause unbalance.
This is the one doctrine I have rejected because I believe it defeats God's grace, mercy, and reach. In short, the darkness overcomes the light, which cannot be truel.
On the contrary it upholds Gods grace, mercy and reach. God is gracious because he died for those who were already against God. He is merciful because in his payment he offered relief from the reality of hell and the joy of eternity it his presence. His reach is overwhelming because he has turned many from the trajectory of darkness to light.
For the person who rejects God to be placed in the eternal presence of God, would itself be hell because their hearts are set against him. Darkness in no way overcomes light. The darkness is pushed out forever so that there can only be light. Tim Keller put it this way. Being a sinner will not send you to hell, being self righteous will. Believing you are good enough to not need Christs sacrifice for you is what separates us from God. It is in this mindset that you make yourself God, as Satan also did, and cannot humble yourself before God.
In addition, to reject this idea of hell leaves you with a vast amount of scriptural issues as Jesus deals with hell quite a bit. Why speak so much about it if no one is going?
@@spiritandflesh8477 You’ve got a lot of studying to do youngster.
@@user-fc2zb9po8t I have studied and continue to study Gods word and you can’t escape the reality of hell if his word is to be believed. Light is separated from darkness in Genesis and it will be the same in the end. No one who walks in darkness is of Christ.
@@spiritandflesh8477 Interesting you mention Genesis. For one simple fact that in the entirety of the opd testement there is NO mention of hell (which isn’t even a word known in hebrew or greek. Genesis clearly tells us what the wages of sin are. And it surely isn’t ‘hell’
@@user-fc2zb9po8t the Old Testament called hell Sheol or the place of the dead in contrast to Abraham’s bosom. The New Testament would separate hell (Sheol) from Gehenna which is the lake of fire.
Daniel 12:2 - And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
This is clearly drawing a parallel between the desirable place in the afterlife and one not so desirable, whatever term you want to put on it.
If you believe in Christ this is brought into clearer view as Jesus as well as the epistles and Revelation express these themes further.
Those not found in Christ will experience a place of Gods judgement, darkness, lake of fire; these are just some of the words used of the destination of those in rebellion against God.
Pragmatically, what purpose would it serve for those who hate God, rebel against him, or reject him to be placed in an eternity with him as king and Lord?
You are correct, the wages for sin is death but there are multiple passages that express Gods future judgement on all sin. In the New Testament we are told that the dead in Christ shall rise first then all that remain. Those who have died without Christ are mentioned in Revelation 20. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
The New Testament and Old Testament do not disagree but corroborate the unchanging message of God that sin and wickedness will eventually meet their end. The Old Testament is clear that sin must be atoned for and without Christ there is no atoning work. Furthermore, the New Testament is clear that just as Abraham was raised to life because of faith in God, so would those who have placed their faith in his finished work on the cross.
The only part of the doctrine of Hell that I struggle with, is the irreversibility of it. Why would those in hell, not at some point repent? and if they did repent, why would God not forgive them? The struggle I have is, that on one hand, I can see no good reason for them not to repent, or for God not to forgive them, and yet, on the other hand, I see in Scripture that the judgement is final, the punishment Eternal, and that there is and never will be rest for those who are sent there.
Exactly. That is why I reject the doctrine of hell. The darkness overcomes light. God's love, perseverance, mercy could not overcome, and he is forced to abandon billions. Makes no sense.
@@gab31282 So because you don’t like something you will reject what God has said in His word?
@@Anteater23 I reject it, not because I don't like it, but because it goes against God's love, good nature, and power.
So either the Scriptures are wrong on this issue, the tranlations are wrong, or our interpretations may be wrong, or a combination of these.
@@gab31282 You are forgetting that God is just. He wishes that no one would perish but He cannot save anyone that is not covered by the blood (consider the Passover in egypt).
Once you start rejecting what is plainly written you are in very dangerous territory - how can you believe anything at that point? Nobody preached Hell more that Jesus. So by thinking God would be wrong to do this, you are imposing your imperfect morality and judgement on God who is perfect and Holy. Why not choose to accept God’s word and trust that He is always right in whatever He does.
@@gab31282 I agree. I think the translations could be wrong and/or our interpretation of scripture. I also think the translations could’ve be mistranslated on purpose.
How could you quote CS Lewis concerning “free will” if you are a Calvinist?
Help me understand why you think that’s a problem. I’m trying to learn about what people think Calvinism is so it would be helpful to understand your perspective
@@TruthUnites Sure and I appreciate your openness.
So you are a reformed baptist from my understanding. Do you subscribe to the London baptist confession of 1689? If you do, chapter 3 article 1 is what George Orwell aka Eric Blair referred to as “double think”. If God decrees everything that comes to past, that would have to include sin and those who reject him, if words having meaning of course.
@@heurisko2103 in that event the appropriate criticism would be that Calvinism is incoherent, correct? Not your initial claim that speaking of free will is inconsistent?
@@TruthUnites yes, the fact that you would quote CS Lewis’ argument of free will and God creating a universe as such is logically inconsistent for you as a Calvinist. Therefore, demonstrating that no Calvinist is ever really consistent in praxis nor in propositional statements about reality because Calvinism is totally incoherent.
@@heurisko2103 I’m not sure you grasped my prior comment but thanks for explaining.
Tbh..to say "Every good thing we ever get comes from God" in all practicality seems presumptuous.
In the order of things as we expierience them where does one Ever observe their being Providentially orchestrated?
But why can't you repent after you die
But Gavin do you think people realize what there doing??
A hard doctrine, to be sure, but it helps me to remember that the souls in Hell will understand why they are there and, in some sense, fully agree with God that they SHOULD be there. In other words, if we believe that at the Last Day, all will be revealed, the final veil will be lifted, and "every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord", then it stands to reason that no one will see any injustice in anything that God has done. The unbelievers who refuse to bow to Christ in life will certainly bewail their fate, but they won't disagree with it.
Everyone will get exactly what they deserve unless they are saved
@@lionofjudah8403 how do you get saved ? And once saved can you lose salvation?
@@johnvitelli3862 look up “how to get saved Hans wormhat” and read the New Testament and old if you can
@@johnvitelli3862 yeah salvation can be lost but if one is saved he’s changed but the point is to try and don’t give up
If every knee bows to Jesus, then universalism must be true.
I don't know that I am entirely clear on the doctrine of hell. I hold to a view that seems to have evidence, but which is condemned by "Orthodox" Christianity.
It seems like Jesus teaches the torment people suffer for their sins does not last forever when He says, "You will not get out of there until you have paid the uttermost farthing," and when He says, of those who committed the unforgiveable sin, "Neither in this age nor in the age to come," since this infers "forgiveness" for other sins will be available in ages to come.
How do they "pay" God? By becoming objects of wrath--and the revelation of God's wrath glorifies God, thus "paying" their debt of failing to glorify Him.
In the Law (eg, Lev 4, etc), only after the priest makes atonement, then the LORD will forgive the person. After an answer is given for the sin, there is "forgiveness"--after the people pay for their crimes against God, they can be "forgiven".
Otherwise, you subscribe to a theory of atonement which says Christ's sacrifice was "infinite" in order to cover "infinite" offenses... but we already know there is a category of "infinite" offense, and that that cannot ever be forgiven. It doesn't make sense that a child, on the day he reaches the age of accountability, steals a lollipop and goes to "eternal" torment. It would make more sense if he went there to pay for his finite and measurable misdeed and then got out.
There is a problem : Paul says the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God--so what would ultimately become of these people?
How can anything exist apart from God?
I think he means Relationally apart. God's presence is still there, but they do not enjoy His presence. "Depart from me I never knew you."
I haven't made a choice because the God(s) didn't communicate to me what He/She/They want from me. Have to wait for that before I can make an informed choice.
It all points to Jesus who went through hell so we wouldn't have to. He paid an infinite penalty on the cross, and since He is God incarnate, one drop of His blood worth infinitely more than all the suffering in hell put together.
Each person is conceived in a state of rebellion against God that crystallizes into a trajectory of willful disobedience throughout their life. They choose at each moment not to seek God, receive the truth, or believe. Each person acts according to their nature: to reject the true God and find an alternative substitution to take God's place.
Why hell? Because God is Holy and cannot co-habit with lawlessness. Human choice to believe is constrained by the limits our nature puts on ourselves. We cannot make our lawless spirit into a law-seeking spirit or a rebel spirit into a contrite spirit. Is it unfair of God to cast away the lawless rebel who is only acting according to their inherited fallen nature? Each person acts according to their will. And the will is determined by everything that impinges on it, both external to it (like the environment, opinions, peer pressure, temporal rewards, and punishments) and internal forces (pride, ego, lust, needs, desires for love, emotional and physical pain).
At each moment, choices are made and become immutable (written as it were in stone), a testament forever against (or for) that person in the court of God. If you were sent back in time and allowed to repeat your life, you'd repeat it exactly as you did the first time. You'd make all the same choices.
Why is that? Because all the same internal and external contingencies are exactly the same, you make the same choices as you could do no other. Because your life is a series of cause-effect relationships, as is everyone and everything, we can extend your life story back to Adam and Eve. Each moment leads to the next according to explicit laws, meaning the entire history of mankind and the universe was knowable (by God) before it played out in time. In fact, it was all known by God because, as the Author, He conceived it conceptually before Creation, always having in a timeless Godhead the full knowledge of all that would occur. That means God knew the end from the beginning. He sees eternity past to eternity future, all at once. Because of His position outside creation, He knows no one will turn from their Adamic fallen disposition to turn from their sins and plead for their salvation. No, not one!
Which brings us back to free will, do you have it? Yes, you do. But, no, you don't. Both are true. You are free at each moment to choose according to a will bound by its spirit of disobedience to act following the nature of that spirit. You cannot fly because you are not a bird; that is not your nature. You cannot choose to please God in your rebel state because even your most seemingly self-abasing humble attempts at pleasing God are motivated by self-aggrandizement and pride. You can fool people but not God. We are all free to seek God, humble ourselves before Him, and pray to be saved from the wrath to come, but that is the bird's wings that we do not possess in a spirit dead to good works. We CAN pray for salvation to another god we create for ourselves, which many do, who cannot save but loves us just as we are. Many do, and though they say "Lord, Lord," God will say He never intimately knew them as His adopted children.
Hell, therefore, becomes a place where people who exist in a state of rebellion will exist apart from the love of God or His abiding presence, which is exactly the thing they desire most during their lives. It is a second death, a separation not of body and soul (first death) but of creature from Creator. There is no one currently in "hell" because this occurs at the end of the age upon Christ's return, and the lawless are judged according to God's law against each choice they made throughout their lives. Until then, those redeemed by Christ from the mass of fallen humanity remain in heaven, awaiting the consummation of all things. The wicked await without conscience existence until they stand on the earth to be judged on that last day.
Why can't the wicked be annihilated instantly rather than eternally in hell? The offense against an eternal God is also eternal. Christ's payment for those God chose to save was also eternal. Jesus had to endure an eternity, forsaken by God (which we cannot fathom since He is God), to pay the penalty under God's Law for all those the Father willed to save. When Jesus said, "It is finished," He stated that He had completed His purpose on earth. He had fulfilled the will of His Father and had redeemed all those the Father gave to Him. If the Perfect Son endured endless suffering, should we expect the blameworthy to avoid it?
Do the wicked want to go to hell and be cast away from God? Certainly, the demons wanted no part in hell, saying, "Have You come here before the time to torment us?" (Mat 8:29). They recognize, as do all the wicked, that God's righteousness demands a recompense for evil be made. But neither the demons nor the wicked want to be under God's authority or obedient to His Law. So, they fear God and His wrath but also loathe Him, even to the point they would rather die than submit. So, at each moment in a person's life, by each decision of their rebel will, they show by their small and great repudiation of God that they chose death. The second death, to be eternally separated from God, to be under His abiding wrath forever, is the only logical outcome to deal with lawlessness by a perpetually Holy God.
God is a King; He rules over a Kingdom, and those willing to be His subjects are made partakers of that Kingdom. Those who hate the King and despise His Kingdom are unfit to enter and are cast into outer darkness, where there is no hint of God's Light. They will exist, forever comprehending how they willfully chose each moment of their lives to reject God's mercy and lay up judgment in God's court against them.
What does make sense?
What about all the verses that speak to Apokatastasis? Or verses about all things being subjected to Jesus, Every knee will bow and tounge confess. Or that nothing can seperate us from the Love of God? I've been finding the traditional doctrine of hell more and more untenable. A God who would dies for his enemies, and who is all powerful, who is love, and who desires for all his creation to be with him I imagine was not gambling when he made creation but has always had a plan. He's a rescure and redeemer, he's a good father and healer. I cannot say with certanty what will happen in the end of course. But I hope that God will be all in all as the scriptures say and everyone will be won over by God's love and Christ's sacrifice.
What about Lukewarm?
Does the following "logic" hold water?
As Lewis says elsewhere, God's "time" is an eternal NOW. Past, present, and future for God just ARE. So, if Christ is "ever" on the cross, eternally, then hell--eternal judgment, separation from God--would be a just punishment that actually fits the "crime."
Paganism at its best. Having a form of Godliness but denying its power.
God is not bound or limited by man's imagination,ideas, interpretations, or free will.
Revelation 9:20-21 (ESV)
20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, 21 nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.
thoughtful take as always. Though the black and white thinking is problematic. God also created all that is evil. At what point do we hold God accountable for his creation and our inability to know what his will is? It's like playing moral whack a mole.
Personally I'm not so sure that the Bible literally describes hell. Actually, I'm pretty certain of that. I don't think we have or are supposed to have a clear idea of what hell is, after all it wasn't made for us anyway. I think we can take the general just nature of God along with scriptures and come to the conclusion that hell may very well be an eternal judgement that had varying degrees of suffering.
This all seems kinda vague.
I tend to agree with the idea that hell is a choice. Look up the series of paintings done by Hieronymus Bosch. It shows in three pannels the deviation of sin. Starting with a kinda garden of eden, to a hedonistic live and let live paradice and in the last pannel a self imposed sadomasochistic hellscape. Anyone who thinks hell by choice is to light of a concept should seriously look at those painting and then imagine an eternity of people left to their own divices. You might know people in your life addicted to drugs, alcohol, porn, laziness, videogames and by age 30 their life looks like hell. I think even if God left people to their own devices, in complete abundance with everything they need to do what they want give it no time in the span of eternity before those people are doing hellish things to themselves and others just to feel anything. The best case senario, if people in hell literally have everything they need to live out the highest peaks of pleasure from what ever their desire is the end result is still horrific given eternity. Of cause this version of hell is just a thought experiment but I think it touches on something interesting. Imagine if you die and there are two roads, one serve and be in Gods will for eternity and on the other side all of your worldly desires calling you to come and enjoy them as you please unrestricted for eternity.
You're reliance on C S Lewis leads me to 2 comments. First, CSL never questioned that humans are inherently immortal, but I think the general trend is away from this, and so far as I can see it has no biblical basis at all. CSL said (I'd need to find the quote) that if he could, God would mercifully end the existence of the damned, but he can't because that is impossible even for God. That's not the same as believing that God maintains the life of people suffering the punishment of hell. Maybe you agree with CSL on this. It'd be interesting to see how you would establish this. Second, quoting CSL on the idea that the only reason God sends people to hell is because he cannot get "under the level of human will" rather contradicts the Calvinist view that he most certainly can. In fact one of the slides showing what he believes seems impossible to a Calvinist who believes that "the King's heart is in the hands of the Lord and he moves it whichever way he will", but not the hearts of suffering human beings. I don't doubt for a minute that CSLs view relies on Libertarian free-will.
And in many ways, CSL had a wider hope that Calvinists, most of whom believe that many are in Hell who never have had any idea who Jesus Christ is. I don't think you'll find "C S Lewis The Inner Calvinist".
This seems a untenable or even more difficult if one was a high calvinist or one who believed in the T (total depravity or total inabilty) or L (limited atonement) Tulip.
Provisnists and/or molinists allow hell as a concept to be just and fair albeit sad and difficult to still understand yet.
To add, this is probably why C.S Lewis wasn't a calvinist as far as I'm aware, and would more closely fit a provinist view.
Awesome video! Very informative and the last quote was powerful! Thank you brother!
The hardest thing for me are two facts:
1- God created the majority of people with the knowledge they would suffer in hell for all eternity.
2- If hell is eternal, and if it is an actual “place” with suffering (rather than pure nothingness), then it would require the power of God to not only create, but also *sustain* hell. Which means hell isn’t truly an absence of God. It is His judgment. And He will have some of His intention focused on it for all eternity.
My only comfort is knowing God is greater, all-knowing, and more good and loving than I can imagine. The world is complicated and only God understands how each thing affects another. That’s why I have faith in God, even if those two ideas seem horrible to me. I can never have enough confidence to reject God for these reasons when there is so much I do not know.
The problem is people don't REALIZE there is a hell!
You’ve been there?
@@user-fc2zb9po8t some people have and are still there
What about the countless amount of babies who didn’t survive childbirth? Do you think that they could be reincarnated to “Get their legitimate free will opportunity”??
I think the universal consensus is that that babe would be in Heaven. They were incapable of knowing anything. I've never met a Christian who believed that that baby would be in hell.
I believe the Bible is God’s revelation to us and that nobody comes to the Father apart from Jesus. I’m also a universalist. My journey started with an article entitled The Bible and Universalism by Keith Derose. Hell makes no sense. Calvinism is horrible. Basically, much of western Christianity came from Latin translations that misinterpreted many key verses. Long story short, eternal hell is terrible doctrine. David Bentley Hart and others have helped on this journey. We need to trust and follow Jesus.
Most Christian theology and doctrine believes that God is Omniscient ( All Knowing ). And if God is Omniscient, then He knew exactly who would go to Hell if they were to exist. The greatest crime to ever be committed against Man is God allowing those People to exist. The ultimate cruelty done is God bringing into existence People whom He knew would go to Hell. It is Predestination all the way down if God is Omniscient and all you have is just basic Calvinism. Free will arguments are weak and don’t get to the heart of the issue.
Hell hard to make sense of?? The difficulty about the subject is a misunderstanding of what Hell is and its role - that it lasts forever, and once a soul enters Hell he can never get out, allied with an assumption that human beings live only one earthly life. A major reason why people view Hell like this is that the Bible New Testament happens to be incomplete, missing crucial material which was jettisoned by theologians centuries ago. The basic truth about God’s Love and Justice is that when we die, we each go to a realm where we are compatible. If our lives have been filled with hatred as the dominating aspect of our lives, we will arrive in a place where the beings there are the same as us, consumed by hate. Is a Hell realm permanent? Yes and No. It depends on you: if you find yourself there and you choose to cling to your sin and never regret your condition, then you will stay there: that is the permanence of Hell. But if eventually you come to your true soul sense and start to acknowledge what you are and want to be different, you will be heard and a way of escape will begin to manifest. The choice is yours. Those who say that once you die you can never change your character are under a misperception about the nature of God’s dealings with His creatures. It is now time for the world to learn these truths; do not gullibly accept those who tell you everything is always sweetness and light when you have crossed over. There is a Devil as a well as a God: one of these two is lying to you.
“It’s is now time for the world to learn these truths; do not gullibly accept those who tell you everything is sweetness and light when you have crossed over.”
Yet in this statement you are asking someone to accept your belief with no scriptural backing. The view you expressed in no way lines up with any picture of reality that God verbalized. What you vocalized is a works based escape from hell, Buddhist view of the afterlife, and supposed excluded works of the Bible that would give this unknown knowledge to those who are ignorant of the facts. This is a similar posturing made by the gnostics of the early church. Take some of the truth of Christ, mix in a little of this, a little of that, and see if you like it.
This is why the church holds scripture as the authority. Without an outside ruler to measure your views by, it is all just personal preference and speculation.
If you really study the scriptures and the original ancient Hebrew words . It leans towards hell being annihilation . Meaning the wicked are to be destroyed completely and turned to nothing , turned to ash not suffer for all eternity. It's also leaning towards a set time of punishment first , meaning depending on what you did , you will suffer first in hell for a limited number of time and then proceed to be destroyed, not suffer for all eternity. If you think about it , this concept of eternal torment would more likely make people not believe in God because it sounds so unfair it will make people think this is fear mongering , "believe our religion or go to hell for all eternity " which means it's man made , this will be the conclusion some will reach. The other alternative is people will rebel against st God because the fate is so unfair and monstrous. People would not want to follow such a cruel God and would rather rebel .
My theory is , this eternal torment concept was create by Satan and spread by him . The goal is to get as many people to not believe or rebel .
I ask you this , how can a loving and just God allow his creation to suffer such a unimaginably horrible fate ? 999 trillion years times 999 trillion years can go by and it still won't matter , you're in there forever . In my heart , I just don't feel he would do this .
I think he loves us too much .
He is said to wipe away all tears and suffering. If eternal torment is real , wouldnt people in heaven not be at peace and suffer because they see their friends or family suffering in hell for all eternity, fully knowing they are in there FOREVER. It wouldn't be heaven . If we deserve eternity in hell , wouldnt Jesus Christ go to hell and suffer for all eternity vs only dying? He wouldn't make such a fate for us. I believe he loves us too much and he would sacrifice himself in our place and endure eternal torment in order to spare us of that fate . This is my God .
Annihilation is much more likely .
The apostle Paul. Accepted Christ didn’t he? With his own free will right? But God pointed him in the right direction when he KNOCKED HIM OFF THE DONKEY. how was that total free will. People need to study hell scriptures in the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. They have been mistranslated BADLY. THEY ARE NOW WHAT HAS BEEN TAUGHT FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS.
C.S. Lewis provides a good view of hell. But his view is incomplete. The problem of hell comes when we choose to accept the fact that God would allow people to suffer for eternity with no end. It simply doesn’t make any sense. Why not just annihilate them? Or even hold to universalism. Ultimately eternal conscious torment is going to be problematic regardless of how you view it. I don’t think the problem can be solved unless you accept annihilation (which has its own internal problems) or accept universalism.
We have no life apart from God this is extremely ridiculous. the Bible does not support the false idea of hell.
How about you can die and fou find out otherwise 1Timothy If any man teach otherwise,and consent not to wholesome words,even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ,and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;He is proud,knowing nothing,but doting about questions and strifes of words,whereof cometh envy,strife,railings,evil surmisings...(knowing nothing,knowing nothing,knowing nothing) i say this with the LORD JESUS CHRIST testifying for me prove me wrong if you doubt me
your eyes are very beautiful
wtf
@@ArkEleven1 they really are tho.
@@ArkEleven1 He's out of pocket but he's right
I have seen some of your videos. Several are good. But this was the worst. I also regard your position as a deviation from classical Christian beliefs about hell, and you should have openly and clearly declared that, and not as you did here, abstractly manipulated with the Christian Faith.
Sure, hell makes sense if your theological assumptions call for it. But isn’t biblical and good theology doesn’t require it.
The biblical teaching of man is that he is dust, and to dust returns. It is appointed to man to die once, and then God will judge him according to his works. And we can judge him too, esteeming him one who walked with God and one who illuminates us like a star shining from heaven and like a lamp placed on a lamp stand. Or we can judge him a worthless fool who cannot even turn in his grave. The dead have no knowledge of the world of the living, and no power to help anyone who calls to the dead for aid. That is the biblical teaching of man, and life, and death, in a general sense. The grave is eternal, remorseless, universal and indiscriminate. The good and the evil suffer the same fate and go to the same place.
The teachings of eschatology and salvation and judgment do not disturb this teaching. The resurrection does not bring every individual back to life in a new physical body. Rather, Israel suffers death in her exile and in her political dissolution. She becomes the valley of the dry bones. She is promised resurrection from this fate as a nation. And she is promised the punishment of hell (Gehenna) in her last days following her rebellion (Is. 66:24). In her final generation, at the end of her 69 sevens of post-exilic existence, her government, “an anointed one” is cut off by the rise of the foolish people of the prince, who stop the sacrifices in the Second Temple and who set up the Abomination of Desolation in the temple and who bring destruction and the war to the end and the flood that destroys Jerusalem and the Second Temple, Dan. 9. This is the resurrection of the unjust, rising from Israel in rebellion. This is the Fourth Beast’s little horn that overthrows its predecessor governors and brings the Fourth Beast Israel to her end when the Kingdom of God comes in power. This is when many who sleep in the dust of the earth awake, some to eternal condemnation, Dan. 12. Thus, those who rise to be condemned are a specific group within Last Days Israel, not every human being who ever lived and died and who did not walk with God. The Lord promised the judgement of Gehenna upon those who heard his word and rejected it, and who remained in the city and did not heed his warning to leave it.
In the same way, the resurrection of the just to eternal life pertained to the Israel who was the valley of the dry bones. It was this Israel that was in their graves who heard the voice of the son of man and who lived when they heard the gospel. It was they who were elevated to heaven as stars shining as they evangelised the nations, in fulfillment of Dan. 12:2-3, cf. John 5. In those people the body of Christ was constituted as the immortal resurrection body, the church that the gates of Hades (death) would not be able to withstand. This is the biblical resurrection body, the spiritual body (singular) into which the dead ones (plural) were being raised (present tense) in 1 Cor. 15.
A proper biblical theology and eschatology has no need for the traditional “hell” as the place of eternal punishment into which all human beings will be sent to exist forever, whether consciously or unconsciously. There was a time for punishment and judgment, the “days of vengeance” of Luke 21 when there would be “wrath against this people” I.e. last days Israel of the Lord’s own generation.
Beyond these “days of vengeance to fulfill all that has been written” we have no “hell” judgment. After the judgment of Israel in the Lord’s generation, we have the heavenly city, the New Jerusalem, to replace the Old Jerusalem that was desolated. In the city there is no more sun, moon and stars to give light (the Levitical priesthood) rather there is the light of the Lamb. There is no night or darkness and no sea (gentiles/foreigners). Rather, there is the tree of life, which gives its fruits 12 months a year for the healing of the nations. Outside the city are the murderers and the wicked, and the water of life goes out to them. And the evangelists continue to bring healing and life, and to bring people from outside the city into it. Outside the city is not “hell” rather it is the world being healed as the kingdom of God grows eternally through evangelism and the ministry of reconciliation, healing and mercy. There is no “hell” after the old order of things (the old priesthood and temple etc.) have been destroyed by fire and by men of war flooding into it and by having their bodies thrown into Gehenna where the worm does not die.
Heaven and Hell are the carrot and stick in the con trick of religion...
It’s that simple...
Neither exists in reality
ruclips.net/video/nnTVPCwPjhI/видео.html
Satan and Hell are two of the worst things invented by Abrahamic religions because of its vacuous theology and philosophy. In a way, this does not make sense at all, but is also genius at the same time. Fear does keep people in line.