I've been on medication for depression for most of my life and I think existentialism to me is what dealing with depression feels like. There is a constant general feeling that no matter what you do or what you believe in nothing really matters in the end. Even though I am a Christian, there are constant battles in my mind and thoughts telling me that ultimately there is no real purpose and my desire for a God is in essence what my life will always be about, even if there is no God, therefor I will always chase the wind so to speak. I think this is why I often have the desire for personal experiences with God, so I know there is something outside myself for proof vs something I could make up in my mind. A lot of philosophies are over my head, but existentialism is something I understand more because I can genuinely FEEL what it is.
I can identify and agree - when I was depressed I often felt that it was more being realistic about life (as seen by me) than a disorder in itself. Talk to God as much as you can and ask Him to help you come closer to Him. "Lord I believe, help my unbelief!" He is there. If you see a sign, you don't have to feel certain or that you might be mad if you reach out and pull on the thread. God bless.
As a teen who struggles with anxiety and depression, I cannot agree more. I am lucky enough to not have needed to go on meds so far, but it's definitely right on with how it feels. Depression is the despair that comes from this, and anxiety is worrying about it. This comment perfectly sums up how I feel when I struggle mentally.
@@davidcates2639 “Depression is the despair that comes from this and anxiety is worrying about it”….Wow! You nailed it. That’s is exactly how it feels. As well as the original poster’s comment that depression is the belief life is absurd and pointless.
existentialism and post modern philosophical subjectivism fundamentally destroyed my "grounding" to reality in my early twenties. as it eroded my understanding and confidence in "absolute and objective truths", I fell away from my faith, and embraced a very subjective sense of morality. a little marijuana use triggered a psychological break that was a long time coming and I stumbled into an unreal and deep despair that I couldn't climb out of because I believed in nothing solid to place my foot into like a cleft in a mountain...I was in the quicksand of my mind and soul. it's what hell is to me, almost certainly. loved watching you talk about this. thank God, quite literally, for the firm foundation in Himself that grounds everything. "the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom."
@@TruthUnites you and me both. thank you. I love your channel quite a bit, and this video highlighting similarities makes it make more sense. your channel is a huge blessing. watch everything you make lately!
This is life saving stuff. I appreciate you wrestling with ideas rather than touching them with a 50 foot pole out of fear of contamination. Your belief in the common grace of Christ working through ideas, secular or religious, is why your effective. Wrestling, taking meat, leaving bones, knowing enough to point out the underlying assumptions, all the while being faithful to Christ. Impactful. Thank you.
It's helpful (and frightening) to allow the starkness, randomness and absurdity of the full-on existentialist world view to touch one's soul once again. I can't live there anymore, at least not for longer than a few minutes, but I feel extreme compassion for those who feel they cannot with integrity live anywhere else! As you said, "faith is in the place of desperation," or at least the gateway to faith often waits to be discovered there. We have to be able to meet people where they are, without losing the firm footing that has been graciously afforded us. Thanks for this video!
This is great, brother. Was pleased yesterday to get a text from my local Christian bookshop owner (Dundee, Scotland) that your new book is on its way. Really looking forward to it now.
I really enjoyed this video. More than ever, this is much needed to share our faith in this absurd world. During my college years, I survived my experience with Viktor Frankl’s In Search of Meaning in Life. I’m blessed that I found hope in Christ before I got married.
Yes isn't it nice to confirm that you are not the only crazy one out there 🙂. I had my first existential crisis before the age of 10. I contemplated eternity in light of "the void" and I immediately realized that if there is no God then life has no meaning. It set me on a lifelong course of pursuing objective meaning i.e. God. I always joke by saying I wake up every morning an Atheist and then I find Jesus by 11 am. William Lane Craig's essay "the absurdity of life without God" as can be found on the reasonable faith website also speaks to existentialism in a way that has benefited me.
Yes! I resonate. Since I was about 12 years old, I've often thought about life and death, the meaning of life, and the existence of a higher power. It does seem that every human has a desire for God, love, and meaning. Which CS Lewis famously said, If we all have this innate desire for God, is seems reasonable to assume that God exists. And yeah, the truth is, atheism logically leads to moral outrage. The proof is in the pudding. Atheists can come up with a bunch of smart arguments to prove that atheism doesn't lead to higher rates of immorality, but for the average person who claims to be an atheists, their life is going to full of sin or wrong-doing. Jordan Peterson talks about this. Like tbh, if I didn't believe in an afterlife, God or universal right or wrongs, I promise you, I would be a selfish man, I'd give my whole life to make money, have a lot of sex, smoke weed, eat expensive food, cheat, lie, steal and so on. If we are all going to die soon and there is no judgement or God or afterlife, then WHY NOT? And yeah, if atheism is true, then suicide genocide and murder are all not that big of a deal tbh, if we are just highly evolved animals and we are all going to die soon, who's to say you shouldn't? Be a selfish hedonist.
Extremely interesting and powerful video. I, too, got interested in existentialism as an undergraduate, and although I ended up pursuing more analytic-driven philosophies of science, I never stopped thinking existentialism stood as one of the two most important commentaries on the human condition in a secularized, industrial civilization in which two forms of materialism prevailed: metaphysical and monetary. (The other is postmodernism.) I left academia but have continued independent scholarship and writing (my own book is on Amazon). I hope to read yours in the near future. On a limited budget just now; not sure I can buy any more books this year, alas, but it is definitely on my reading list.
Dr. Ortlund, I would love to hear you speak on this topic more. As someone with depression and anxiety, it helps a lot to soothe some of the pain and suffering that comes at 4am when I can't sleep from fear of death. Existentialism is basically what depression feels like for me; utter despair and meaninglessness is all that lies in the universe, and I'm only tricking myself into believing in God because otherwise I couldn't function.
You could just as easily say an atheist is only tricking herself into functioning because otherwise she couldn't face the utter despair and meaninglessness that is all that lies in her universe. God bless you. I'm not arguing with you. I'm very much the same way. Waking up in panic at night. Feeling hopeless at the crack of dawn. Believing in God during the day, especially when I have something from the Holy Spirit to read or listen to.
as an agnostic who loves existential thinkers, you have a great mind and imagination to be open enough to even ponder existentialism as it challenges faith so heavily. instead you turned it into a reason to believe in your faith more which is awesome but for others who don't or refuse to believe in a god, this is where a lot of humans struggle. i like how you are open minded to all of these intense thoughts as a religious man. thank you.
This video warmed my heart, it reminded of who I was before becoming a christian, and it helps me make sense of what people are going through nowadays, people don’t have meaning, people have a false sense of purpose, and I just want i way to connect with them and tell them how Christ is what they need.
Dear Dr. Gavin, Again, such a great video. The past few months I was just getting into existentialist literature and I was struggeling how to place it so to say. This video helped a lot like with one of your next videos regarding Budhism. I was almost jumping in my chair in my excitement about the hope and joy of Christianity. FYI: I listen via Spotify, appreciate it greatly that you upload them to spotify. Came to youtube to provide this comment.
Sir, this was a beautifully made video. I am 18 years old studying at Boston College and the questions of existentialism began to press me as I began college. Growing up Christian, these questions were extremely hard to answer and have caused a great deal of anxiety. I absolutely love how you respect, and resonate in a sense with the thought of Camus, because in reality, wha he says does make sense. However, how you tie it into Christian thought was beautiful. I am very glad I found this video. Thank you so much. I am very interested to learn more on this topic and want to begin studying Christian existentialism!
God Bless you Gavin, and thank you for all that you do! Really looking forward to your video on Buddhism. I live in Japan, so it is extremely relevant to my situation. Please pray for the church in Japan! Pray for the people of Japan to open up their hearts to the Lord! Thanks! Matt
thanks! just said a prayer for the church in Japan. My brother has done two trips there to support a seminary there, and shared with me how challenging a context it is for the church.
I read philosophy as an undergrad as well at a small liberal arts college. Often wished I had studied it in grad school, too, but I’ve spent 35 years reading it, along with theology. When I was 20, I had a very similar response to Camus. Your analysis is very like my own. I came home on holiday, took a long backpack with my wonderful father, who talked to me about the angst as a necessary part of human life. It’s necessary to look into the abyss to find a faith that endures. This is Beautiful work.
Thanks for the discussion. You make a good point and maybe we don't communicate it well enough that the Christian Faith does allow for questions and some degree of doubt. The difference for me in my journey is that just like before i became a Christian I still have struggles with meaning and understanding but before I assumed that if I did not know or understand the answers that it meant that there were no answers. Now I can accept that the existence of answers or meaning is there whether I can know them. Just because I don't know does not mean that there is nothing to know. Mark 9:24 is where I am often.
I woke this morning with the word "existentialism" echoing in my head. Why did God put this word in my head? Where did I hear this word from? Sociology class? So I Googled the word to find the definition. Then momentarily I was led to watch your RUclips video. I thought about Solomons book on Ecclesiastes. Life is vanity unless we have Gos to give is purpose and His love to give us significance. I thought about Queen's song Night of the Opera and "The Dark Night of the soul" by St John of the Cross. I was delighted with your conclusion at the end of this video. The Just shall live by faith. God gives us this struggle to drive us to Him. This verse brought Martin Luther relief as he was struggling with sin in his life. I'm not a good student of philosophy and have difficulty in grasping the concepts but your video taught me a lot and I feel it would be a great discipling tool to reach people for Jesus. Seems like you have an anointing of Ravi Zacherious.
I just listened to Cosmic Skeptic blame Christianity for why Atheism often leads to Nihilism. The idea being, because the Christian Faith asserts the need of God with respect to Meaning and Purpose, those who finally reject the Faith are under the impression that the only thing remaining is nothing, purposelessness. He represents an inconsistent Atheist; i.e., an Atheist who refuses to run his worldview to its ultimate conclusion. Thanks for these reflections.
Well I think he would respond that atheists don’t have to believe in ultimate meaning to have short term personal meaning. However when you grow up in church and hear every Sunday that if you become an atheist that you’ll live a meaningless life, it’s hard for deconverts to find that personal meaning because they’ve been taught that only Ultimate meaning matters.
@@Iamwrongbut I understand that point he attempts to make. But he is attributing the problem in the wrong direction. Nihilism is a feature of a consistent, atheistic worldview, and not a bug caused by an abandoned Christianity. As Solomon writes, God has placed eternity into our hearts. It follows, then, that our hearts will not find rest unless and until they rest in God, as St. Augustine writes.
@@Iamwrongbut So how would atheists take into account this same problem for those from an eastern perspective? My own view is that it is a human universal regardless of culture that everybody has some sense of eternity, order, and their own telos, and a longing for these to be fulfilled, whether they be from the east or west.
@@marcuswilliams7448 I think the “bug” as you call it is the idea that meaning can only be found in religion. To an atheist, they will accept that Ultimate or Eternal meaning cannot be found in the world, but personal meaning can be created. To say that isn’t true meaning is to beg the question that atheism is false.
There's something I've always loved about Albert Camus, and that made me prefer him over Heidegger's overly abstract views, or Sartre's seamingly cynical approach to life, and I may have just discovered the reason by listening to this. Camus seemed so close to my deepest feelings, I remember reading "The Stranger" many years ago, and feeling so infatuated and helpless at the same time (it wasn't a good moment of my life ha!). There was something fascinating in the way existencialism seemed to reverse de cartesian cogito ergo sum, idea that was driving me crazy back then, though it didn't offer any answer to what my heart was really searching for either. I love how conteplating the abyss of life's uncertainty helped you find meaning for all things in God, because in a way it was my path too. After philosophy dragged my face over a season of nihilism, the reality of God came to answer most of my questions, and after that even philosplophy tasted different. "Faith is in the place of desperation"... mate, you basically summarised my path to Christ there.
Ecclessiates pretty much IS the christian response to existentialism, yeah. "Yeah life is meaningless. Without God, at least. Because God IS the meaning of life."
I know this is really late, but this was an amazing awsome video today! I studied English Literature and Philosophy. Similar to your time, I read all Sartre, Camus, Kafka, Nietzsche and all of the standard Greeks. I found kierkegaard hard to connect with. Pascal was great, and helpful to me.
This is the topic of my graduate thesis, and I think the problem ends up being an issue with "normative reasons." All we have to do is defend the mysterious idea that God is Himself Reason, from which normative reasons flow. But that may only be satisfying on a non theoretical level. It is satisfying, though, to one who has seen the Beatific Vision. This vision might be the solution to existentialism and doubts about meaning. Fingers crossed my paper on this is published this January. In revise and resubmit phase.
"Faith is like falling in love." Yes. You can't really know the girl well enough to explain the attraction, until long after you have made the irretrievable commitment to care about and for her. God is the same, once you build on the basis of faith, to try to deny it feels like looking into the abyss of a bottomless pit. Without God, you will fall forever, and you will be eternally lonely, longing for anyone else to talk to, just to fill the emptiness of your heart. And lacking any foundation, the relativism of values will lead you to imagine your own self-serving morality, which ends up making enemies of everyone else, because none will ever agree. And the final ending of that is what we would call "Hell." In the end, Pascal's wager is the only game in town. We choose to believe, because without faith we will go crazy.
Great video. How does the prospect of hell fit in to all this for you? As a Christian you don't have the existential angst about your coming annihilation, but it can also manifest the far greater one of immortality in hell. Some Christians live thier lives petrified of this outcome for themselves and people they care about. Some have made the point that Christianity (e.g. Calvinism) is far more pessimistic than any secular philosophy, and some early church fathers even espoused some antinatalist themes. A video on this topic would be interesting.
I've been going through deconstruction myself and it's incredibly painful and scary. Dealing with the uncertainty of certains things or question some previously held belief is scary. Studying calvinism, which is the position I grew up with, has really made me question the motivations of God. I can't back up other positions, but certain ideas of TULIP are really difficult to understand. Why God would only save the elects instead of sending Jesus to save everyone. I know there are answer and I'm searching for them and learning, but the process is hard, the doubts painful. Studying archeology has put many questions in my mind that are hard to unravel. The exodus is a particularly difficult one. If the bible is in error with that, what else could be wrong? Can we trust the scriptures anymore? Is the bible really inerrant? The debates between catholicism, orthodox and protestants. I am so afraid of losing faith or finding out none of it is real. Existantialism is precisely why I'm scared of it, when I see people who have to face life with no hope, it breaks my heart. I suffer from depression and I have deep seasons of darkness, I can't even imagine how I would deal with life without God.
I've had what I believe is a direct connection to god, and one of the things I thought I wouldn't need is faith, but apparently he's insistent that I experience despair despite his presence, I can only think that it's so I don't get too uppity and self righteous
You cite a phrase from the end of Sartre's essay but forget what he says right after, "Existentialism is not atheist in the sense that it would exhaust itself in demonstrations of the non-existence of God. It declares, rather, that even if God existed that would make no difference, that's our point of view. Not that we believe God does exist, but we think that the real problem is not that of His existence; what man needs is to find himself again and to understand that nothing can save him from himself, not even a valid proof of the existence of God. In this sense existentialism is optimistic. It is a doctrine of action, and it is only by self-deception, by confusing their own despair with ours that Christians can describe us as without hope." So it doesn't matter if God exists or not according to Sartre here although he also said God's non existence was the starting point. I don't think logical consistency was as important as rhetoric to him. Also the contradictions in Camus' philosophy are part of his point, he starts the Myth of Sisyphus by assuming that truth is unknowable and logic necessarily contradictory. He offers a few riddles in support of this if I remember right, but says he doesn't need to argue the point since everyone knows it's the case already. The contradiction between choosing to rebel and the fact there's nothing to rebel for "creates energy". Apparently energy is good, although nothing is good, embrace contradiction. Sorry, I admit I didn't appreciate Camus as much as you did. Thanks for the video and it makes much more sense than anything I was force-fed from Sartre and Camus.
It's interesting to me that anyone could claim that Sisyphus must be happy. His life is defined by fruitless toil. If fruitless toil is happiness then atheists really have a low bar for happiness.
When Dag Hammarskjöld was mentioned to be a Mystic just like Master Eckhart, then I am allowed to see you as an heir of Kierkegaard. It is so significant nowadays that "thinking christians" arise. And reflecting even thoughts of atheists, philosophers or humanists in the shadow of the Holy Scriptures must be considered significant as well...For our GOD loves them either...
I would love to have seen how the growing body of literature on evolution’s effect on human psychology would have impacted Camus’ writings. It makes sense to think that we absolutely long for meaning in a world from the deepest parts of our hearts because our ancestors who did so created religions that conferred great survival benefits upon their community because of religions extreme unifying influence. It answers the objection that because we long for something more than this world, something beyond this world exists.
Truly interesting, disscussed this with my psychology teacher, but its also interesting with martyrdom, 11 of the 12 disiples died for their belief , muslims risking their lifes for christianity, neither do we know why we long for eternity, through natural means and so on, perhaps God made us with these desires so we ought to seek this, and ultimatly Christ is the answer, he loves you, and calls you not to a comforting belief, but to lay your life down for he who laid it down for you, at calvary, be blessed and peace of Christ be with you!☺️
@@peterlindal3352 martyrdom is well documented in the animal kingdom among the hyper social creatures (like bees) because it supports the group so much that individuals overtime are selected for those traits. If the hive survives, so does the bee. Thus, those that are most social tend to survive and pass down their genes. It is similar for humans though for a lesser extent. So it makes sense that religious people throughout the centuries have died for their communities. They are biologically wired to do so.
@@Iamwrongbut I see, thanks for replying, my point regarding marytrdom was not about dying for ones group, rather for your beliefs. christians remaining in towns to be with the sick and broken did not do so out of their goodness, but out of Gods love, revealed on the cross, and we get to lay down ourselves in love for each other, because Jesus did this for us. May his peace be with you friend!
@@peterlindal3352 your beliefs are your community. You cannot be a Christian in a vacuum and those Christians that isolate themselves often stray or leave the faith because they are not plugged into the body. A bee that leaves the hive doesn’t survive long. Martyrdom makes sense for strong beliefs because the martyr believes it will benefit the religion (the community). If a martyr goes to their death, it shows their commitment and hopefully can be used to convert others which grows the religion they are dying for. They want others to see Jesus, so they die for Him, specifically because it helps the church grow.
@@Iamwrongbut Yes, while they most certainly are connected, i do think it is somewhat more complicated, i am not referring to Jihadist killing and dying for their beliefs, the disciples had no choice but to die or leace behind their old faith, it could be possible that they thought of benefitting their community, but i think they reflected.Christ self sacraficial love in their actiones, just like we need something external to change us towards something different, the holy spirit makes us more like Christ, by love, and through love. They also had hope beyond this life, which to me also seems weird given merely evolutionary framework. Christianity is the sacrifice of the strongest for the surival of the weakest, and this is what i expirience every day, i hope you also will partake in this friend, blessings!
It absolutely makes sense. I'm so thankful I arrived at that point where God was the only option. He's always there waiting for us to come. He won't force you. He's a patient Father.
Yes at this point it is important to see Christians not only reciting verses from the Bible, but also reflect their thoughts and public opinions. Often it is displayed like thinking is prohobited in church...While it is not...There are great and meaningful thinkers in Christianity as well, worthy to mention. Yet as for you and many others, a loving caring God revealed through Christ, is the remedy. And after 2000 years still an open heavenly offering to us merely mortals...
@@carpentersson77 Amen friend. It's definitely not a sin to think. Christians should think well. God gives us a spirit of clarity. I love Gavin because he stands up for our faith without getting in knock down, drag out fights.
I have thought that faith is like falling in love, too! I really enjoyed hearing your thoughts on this. Really looking forward to your video on Buddhism! That's a topic that comes up often and that I don't know much about yet! Edit: I edited after you gave me a heart 😅 Oops!
When I was thirteen I planned to murder my parents and then commit suicide because of atheistic existential thoughts like these. It's specifically because of a form of Pascal's Wager (i.e. not wanting to risk jumping into the dark only to find that a hell exists) that I backed out of my plan.
Like all the atheists I've read Camus never runs all the way to the goal line, but inevitably punts long before. As in "The Plague", where he talks in the end about "love" having ultimate meaning for people that encourages us to act, or Dawkins talking about our genes having complete control over us, and yet we must fight them, but the how or why is not explained. Same thing with Sam Harris- the implications of atheism is so toxic to life that they are ignored, and some kind of system of ethics fabricated out of thin air. Camus' "The Stranger" posits a person who is completely inhuman and without any feeling, and yet in the end having murdered someone for no reason, is exultant. Why? No explanation. Again, no points scored. Thank again, Gavin, really enjoy your talks.
Have you read the myth of Sisyphus? I think it is the most direct work on the implications of atheism ever written. He takes it past the goal line and into the bleachers
@@Iamwrongbut I am not disputing that he makes his point about absurdity, but it all resolves into feelings. He says the universe and everything in it is absurd EXCEPT his feelings about how Sisyphus may feel. So ultimately the book could be titled "How to score in football without ever playing football". I'm not trying to belittle him, but he is stepping on the mines he just finished laying, in the same way people say there is no truth except the truth about there being no truth. If you say there is no solid ground, planting a flag is impossible.
@@dennistoufexis5790 you might want to read the Myth again. He lives in the contradiction which is how he defines with the absurd is. So of course him making a statement about the snide is absurd! Life to him is contradiction. And that’s what he views the world to be from an atheistic worldview. Seems pretty consistent to me
@@Iamwrongbut "But Sisyphus teaches the higher fidelity that negates the gods and raises rocks. He too concludes that all is well. This universe henceforth without a master seems to him neither sterile nor futile. Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night filled mountain, in itself forms a world. The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy" He makes all kinds of non-absurd statements therefore he is extremely inconsistent. Just replace every third word with "absurd" and then he'd be consistent. Instead, he says "seems neither sterile nor futile". That statement is absurd in an absurd universe, and yet Camus wants us to think it has grounded meaning, or he wouldn't say it. Thus with every phrase he uses he is constantly injecting meaning into the universe, after spending most of the work treading on meaning. "Higher fidelity"? Based on what, exactly?
Really excited to watch this video as a Christian person who just bought like 5 Friedrich Nietzsche books lol. I am studying him, and then Fyodor Dostoevsky next. Definitely need to hear a Christian perspective of these ideologies.
very cool! enjoy. There is so much profit in reading those guys. You might be interested in my discussion of them in Why God Makes Sense in a world that Doesn't. God bless.
@@TruthUnites I am definitely gonna pick up your book! Been really enjoying the channel lately, and the passages you read from it sound very well written and insightful!
Have you read the books? I've read a lot of Kierkegaard lately and wanted to take a look at Nietzsche. What are your thoughts as Christian reading Nietzsche?
Fantastic work (as usual) Gavin. I was an existential nihilist as an atheist but I wasn't well read on it so this video helped tie a neat little bow around that in a way. Interestingly, after encountering God I sought to know Him better through Eastern disciplines, albeit more hinduism/yogic, so I'm looking forward to hearing your perspective on Buddhism too. God bless and Happy New Year.
Interestingly enough, I believe there is tremendous amount of concord between some existential philosophy and Christian theism. One of my areas of focus as a mental health counselor
This spoke to me. The sort of questions raised here are constantly in my mind, daily. I do want certainty, badly, and fellow Christians usually don't understand that felt need and see it as antithetical to "faith." I feel like existentialists pastamd present do such a better job at describing the world as it feels to me; your language of being cast into existence without a guide or playbook is typical of their writing. As you've described the problem so well, I will definitely be pondering your take on the solution. Maybe Pascal and Kierkegaard do have some hope to offer here. Maybe I don't understand Pascal's wager and there is some hope there. And most importantly, maybe you're right about there being something positive about the fact that I have all this existential dread (Kierkegaard's "anxiety") inthe first place. Thanks for giving me some new things to think about!
Francis Schaeffer was hugely significant in my conversion whilst I was a medical student in the 1970s. His analysis of Camus' La Peste ( The Plague) was vital for me. Camus writes of a plague in Oran, Algeria. Schaeffer's analysis is that Camus invites the reader to fatalistically accept the plague as ordained by God and thus side with the Priest or side with the Doctor, oppose God and strive to limit the effects of the plague. Wrong says Schaeffer. This world is fallen and God has allowed men and angels to rebel with catastrophic consequences for the whole world, including plagues . God has thus permitted but not ordained the plague. We can thus side with the Doctor in his work without thus being in rebellion against what God has ordained. I found and still find Schaeffer's argument sound. I am not at all sure how a higher Calvinist could critique Camus' position. If - as per the Westminster Confession - God has sovereignly and unchangeably decreed whatsoever comes to pass - then surely Camus is right that God ordained the plague and the Priest has a point. Opposing whatever there is in the world is then opposing God's will. Anyway thanks Gavin. I believe you're a Calvinist..... God bless.
This was very interesting. I haven’t heard much about Existentialism, but it’s nice to have a word/category for these thoughts and feelings in this particular Philosophy. Could you do a video on the opposite side of the pendulum that is NOT Christianity? If there is any other philosophical explanation other than Faith (I’m ignorant)?
awesome. Camus has always been very attractive to me. I rly appreciate his frankness + writing quality but the way he lived and his mentality appeals very strongly to my flesh as well. Especially as a super emotional person I was gripped by The Stranger and sometimes (sinfully) imagine I could live like that. I guess I would/did try to live like that without Christ, but it's not sustainable unless you harden yourself to an almost pathological degree. I love that Kierkegaard quote too - I'm struggling through one of his books called Either Or at the moment... seriously struggling. But I love the Aesthetics and on pg.6 of your new book Why God Makes Sense In A World That Doesn't you helped me understand a little better what he's trying to do - thanks
Thanks for sharing. I think dealing with modern existential thought is crucial as we think of how to reach gen z or just the younger people of this country. I am a youth minister in New England, and I see many youth struggling with existential despair. One problem, however, is to get them to seriously consider that despair, why it is there and what it is doing, rather than just trying to escape it with business.
Great video, I just watched another video yesterday by Bishop Barron called Ideas Have Consequences, in which he talked about various philosophy camps that are still influential now adays. And this is like a further more nuanced treatment on the topic of existentialism he mentioned. Thanks!
Excellent video--a lot of thoughts that I had not thought before. I am sure you are all curious what I think, so here's my take. :) I do believe my purpose here is to study and know God. I am a physician who enjoys biology and physics. Since God is the source of all that is, when I study these things I see glimpses of God and get to know him better. But when I study Him, I am most fulfilled since I am nearest to the goal! And since God is infinite and I am not, (and never will be) then for all eternity I can grow in my knowledge of him! So my purpose now is the same as my purpose for all time. And I believe the drive toward this purpose is in the heart of everyone. So, then, for the athiest, the entire purpose of life has been nullified. It is like a banana in which the fruit itself has been removed and all that remains is the skin...which is not pleasing, does not satisfy, and quickly rots. PS: I would see this "knowing God" includes ever-increasing love, devotion, and worship of Him. In fact, I would say in my redeemed state I am designed such that the more I know him, the more I desire to glorify him.
It’s interesting to me that so many early modern intellectuals conceptualized their own versions of a self-motivated person. Ernst Jungers Anarch, Nietzches Ubermensche, Camus Rebel, Evolas Aristocrat of the Soul etc. Of them all, Kierkegaards Knight of Faith was the only one that ever mad since to me. We forge our own paths but ultimately we must hold that path up alone as sole individuals to God. Kierkegaard managed to marry the epic intensity of the ubermensche and rebel with the the calm solitude of the anarch, and he demonstrated the only way to do this was through absolute faith in God and the Christ.
Well done. Take a look at Eric Metaxas new book - "Is Atheism Dead?" In it he claims (with documentation) that both Camus and Sartre had end of life conversions away from atheism to a belief in God, and both took a serious interest in Christianity. reading that certainly surprised me.
I've sat many a days in the UGA library reading on existentialism too, although from Kierkegaard. Didn't know you were a fellow bulldog, but glad to hear it! One thing that has always annoyed me about Sarte's "existentialism is a humanism" was his misinterpretation of Abraham's anguish. Sartre says that Abraham didn't know whether he was talking to god or a demon, or whether he could be sure of gods commands, and thus was in anguish. In my reading, this didn't seem to be what Kierkegaard was saying at all. Abrahams anguish came from the fact that he had gotten everything he wanted: a son from his wife Sarah, and then God had demanded his sacrifice. I think a lot of existentialists tend to misread this passage and others from Kierkegaard, much to their detriment.
I keep coming back to this video - it always refreshes me in different ways. That journal entry you read perfectly sums up how I've felt recently, especially in the nights - maybe it's something about being college-age lol. Thanks for your work Dr. Gavin, you're really appreciated. Also, I got baptized on Easter Sunday! Figured you'd want to know, since I've commented around on quite a few videos at this point :)
so glad you enjoy this video! I love talking about existentialism, but can never tell if there is as much interest in it, so I appreciate the feedback. And CONGRATS on getting baptized!! Awesome news!!
I went through a phase in which I read Camus and Sartre. It left me depressed and having thoughts of nihilism. The world view is diametrically opposed to Christianity. I am so glad the Lord pulled me through that.
Hey Gavin, I have been a fan of your family's writings for some time now, I have really appreciated your channel and this video resonated very acutely with me and my roommate. Your pastoral encouragement at the end is truly the crux of the way that God has saved my life since battling depression and existential crisis throughout my teen years. God met me in desperation, as he always has and always will. Thank you for this video, more people should watch it. I would love to sit down for coffee sometime, I have really appreciated your insight.
Gavin, regarding philosophy and metaphysics, would you adopt a moderate realist approach to metaphysics, some variation of that, or something completely different?
nice talk, it is not about meaning it is about matter with Jesus (philosophy) it is suicide to agree with meaningless life of Camus, it is a cute book but no match for Pascal, a Christian Follower and Math, "love of God" is essential!! John Lennox books are great as well!
Dr. Ortlund, thank you for your incredible videos and Christ like attitude. I’m a pastor and have struggled with these thoughts for as long as I’ve been a serious follower of the Lord Jesus. I’m currently reading “The Wonderful Works of God” by Herman Bavinck, and have been helped by his chapter on the knowledge of God as not being merely different in degree, but in principle and essence, from other knowledge. Your words about all the possibility of all questions being answered and all knowledge acquired, but that that actually misses what existential angst is doing in us, was incredibly helpful and made me think of Bavinck’s words. Thank you again, from a grateful brother in Christ.
I can definitely resonate with existentialism as an early love in philosophy, as Dostoyevsky, Kierkegaard, and Buber (as well as, less so, the nontheistic existentialists) were one of my first experiences of philosophy. If I could offer some (hopefully gentle) pushback, it would be regarding your second characterization of existentialism as "what atheism feels like". Now, this looks too narrow: it either precludes on things that should count as existentialism or, more minimally, fails to focus on more fundamental features of existentialism. Consider the theistic existentialists, who plausibly have equal claim to the name as their atheist counterparts. Kierkegaard's focus on authenticity vs. alienation, the single individual vs. the crowd, etc., and subjectivity vs. objectifying objectivity at times include contrasts with atheism or apply to evaluating it, but surely there is a positive project of understanding the first and second person and a turn away from the third (as Linda Zagzebski suggests is indicative of the modern and contemporary periods). Likewise, his and Nietzsche's cultural criticism (with N aiming it against Christianity!) is not properly captured by a study of "what atheism feels like" when they are NOT only critiquing atheists but ARE aiming at the dominant Christian culture. Not only is there a positive project along with the negative project you identify, both the negative and positive projects share and show a more fundamental concern besides the death of god specifically: with Buber, we have the persons vs objects, in Nietzsche we have self-creation vs. ressentiment and self-denial, Charles Taylor and points to authenticity, Sartre has freedom and facticity, and etc. The authors, theist and nontheist, share a fundamental focus on self and subjectivity. God, in the theistic existentialists, can be a source of meaning or a harm to the self, as we in Shusaku Endo's Silence. Likewise, T. J. Mawson in his work on God and meaning in life, considers whether Sartre suggests a type of meaning only available on atheism (i.e., where I am the ultimate source of self-definition), and so atheism, and what it means for the self, is one of the applications of existentialist thought, but plausibly the fundamental issue is those clusters of questions surrounding what it means to be a subject in the first place, and a subject before God or without God is downstream. You include ostensibly Christian existentialists like Kierkegaard, Dostoyevsky, and, inspiring them, Pascal. Their work, clearly, goes beyond the study of "what atheism feels like" and is more fundamentally about what the self feels like. Notice the question of self-creation and meaning does not go away when we add God nor does it for contemporary figures like T. J. Mawson, and a sense of despair, as Endo shows, can be had when deeply devoted to God.
Hello Pastor Gavin. This was a lovely talk. Exploring these ideas s challenging and enlightening. The things you read from the ending of your book describe my own experience in the passionate longing for God and the hard-won certainty that He has me in the struggle and the rest.glory and praise to Him.
I would like to raise a word of caution. You state that the pessimistic (that is, life without god is meaningless or less meaningful) sub-variety of atheistic existentialism is what it looks like for those who genuinely consider atheism's implications, adding it may be a subconscious experience. Perhaps this is an accurate characterization of several atheistic existentialists. But you go further: you contrast Sam Harris as an example of the Newer Atheism and the pessimistic sub-group of atheistic existentialists as the Older Atheism (around 7:30) as more, I quote, "honest" and "consistent", those who "get it" and "see" what life is like for the atheist. They might even being "smuggling in" meaning (12:00-12:10) to avoid the implications. Here, I see a historical note and a psychological note. On the historical side, I would caution against using PALE (Pessimistic Atheistic Literary Existentialists) folk as representative of Old Atheism and its implications. In seeking representativeness, we need to ask about uniformity. Notice that citing the Pope *is* representative of ecclesiology when asking about Catholicism, but it would not be representative if you wanted to ask about what Christians - Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant - think in this domain, as there is much debate. We find the same thing with historic atheism/atheist-friendly views on meaning and morality with(out) God. Consider Ralph Cudworth, Pierre Bayle, the Third Earl Shaftesbury, and David Hume (and others in the late 17th and throughout the 18th Century). It is arguable whether some of these figures were atheists, but they were definitely early articulators or precursors of nontheistic-friendly ethics. They give reason to think we cannot speak of a monolithic older atheism that was nihilistic. The old atheism, like today, is too diverse for that. If I recall, you have reason to believe this, too, as you point to Nietzsche as critiquing British ethicists such as these figures in your videos on the moral argument. Unfortunately, the threats to these figures' lives or careers also shows another danger with doing the history of atheism with PALE existentialists: work which did not support an anti-atheist polemic was oftentimes severely suppressed and with figures like Bayle and Shaftesbury having to even defend the idea that atheism does not guarantee one is vicious. The nontheistic ethicists and their friends show diversity and (surprising) overlap like they do today. Going with the PALE group, though, looks like selective, non-probability sampling. Further, when selecting historic or contemporary representatives, we should be sensitive to features of their work which may undermine their candidacy as speaking as representatives. Hyperbole, multiple pseudonymous identities, usage of fallible narrators, ironic contrasts, satire or parody, etc. make for great literature (and perhaps rhetorical power), but they can easily evacuate a work of representing the genuine implications of a view. By contrast, the Analytic aims of clearly defining one's terms, identifying and stating assumptions, charitably exegeting and evaluating rival views and situating yourself amongst them, providing explicit arguments in a standard form (e.g., numbered premises, identification of inference rules, etc.), and identifying costs and benefits of one's own theory make for oftentimes dull reading but are generous to the reader by making oneself clear. I struggle to identify what these PALE figures' arguments are for the conclusion that life without God is meaningless. You, as well, cite their striking conclusions and your own sweeping prose, but these figures have all the markings of the former literary quality and little to commend them in terms of clarity in argument or charity towards rival views. It would thus be radically uncharitable to take them, rather than the leading contemporary figures in the meaning in life and metaethics literatures, as representative of the implications of atheism. Quote mining existentialists is a regular practice amongst contemporary conservative American evangelical apologists, but it is a bug, not a feature, of those aiming to be friends of skeptics.
Thank you Gavin, Truly. Despair and nihilism led me to Christ. Every day is a struggle but I take inspiration from the saints. God bless. My one question would be. When I worry if there is nothing when I am in complete distress that no God can hear me how can I sort it out in my mind? I guess how do you favour the odds of God being more probable than a meaningless universe with no God because I understand that is truly what atheism is. I don’t know if I’m explaining it well but is there a way that I can practically put in my mind the impossibility of nihilism
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I've been on medication for depression for most of my life and I think existentialism to me is what dealing with depression feels like. There is a constant general feeling that no matter what you do or what you believe in nothing really matters in the end. Even though I am a Christian, there are constant battles in my mind and thoughts telling me that ultimately there is no real purpose and my desire for a God is in essence what my life will always be about, even if there is no God, therefor I will always chase the wind so to speak. I think this is why I often have the desire for personal experiences with God, so I know there is something outside myself for proof vs something I could make up in my mind. A lot of philosophies are over my head, but existentialism is something I understand more because I can genuinely FEEL what it is.
thanks for sharing this, just said a prayer for you
I can identify and agree - when I was depressed I often felt that it was more being realistic about life (as seen by me) than a disorder in itself.
Talk to God as much as you can and ask Him to help you come closer to Him. "Lord I believe, help my unbelief!" He is there. If you see a sign, you don't have to feel certain or that you might be mad if you reach out and pull on the thread. God bless.
As a teen who struggles with anxiety and depression, I cannot agree more. I am lucky enough to not have needed to go on meds so far, but it's definitely right on with how it feels. Depression is the despair that comes from this, and anxiety is worrying about it. This comment perfectly sums up how I feel when I struggle mentally.
@@davidcates2639 “Depression is the despair that comes from this and anxiety is worrying about it”….Wow! You nailed it. That’s is exactly how it feels. As well as the original poster’s comment that depression is the belief life is absurd and pointless.
@@jimp7042 I'm with Jim on this one.
existentialism and post modern philosophical subjectivism fundamentally destroyed my "grounding" to reality in my early twenties. as it eroded my understanding and confidence in "absolute and objective truths", I fell away from my faith, and embraced a very subjective sense of morality. a little marijuana use triggered a psychological break that was a long time coming and I stumbled into an unreal and deep despair that I couldn't climb out of because I believed in nothing solid to place my foot into like a cleft in a mountain...I was in the quicksand of my mind and soul. it's what hell is to me, almost certainly. loved watching you talk about this. thank God, quite literally, for the firm foundation in Himself that grounds everything. "the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom."
glad you found your way back to God!
@@TruthUnites you and me both. thank you. I love your channel quite a bit, and this video highlighting similarities makes it make more sense. your channel is a huge blessing. watch everything you make lately!
This is life saving stuff. I appreciate you wrestling with ideas rather than touching them with a 50 foot pole out of fear of contamination. Your belief in the common grace of Christ working through ideas, secular or religious, is why your effective. Wrestling, taking meat, leaving bones, knowing enough to point out the underlying assumptions, all the while being faithful to Christ. Impactful. Thank you.
It's helpful (and frightening) to allow the starkness, randomness and absurdity of the full-on existentialist world view to touch one's soul once again. I can't live there anymore, at least not for longer than a few minutes, but I feel extreme compassion for those who feel they cannot with integrity live anywhere else! As you said, "faith is in the place of desperation," or at least the gateway to faith often waits to be discovered there. We have to be able to meet people where they are, without losing the firm footing that has been graciously afforded us. Thanks for this video!
This is great, brother. Was pleased yesterday to get a text from my local Christian bookshop owner (Dundee, Scotland) that your new book is on its way. Really looking forward to it now.
Awesome, hope you enjoy!
I really enjoyed this video. More than ever, this is much needed to share our faith in this absurd world. During my college years, I survived my experience with Viktor Frankl’s In Search of Meaning in Life. I’m blessed that I found hope in Christ before I got married.
Yes isn't it nice to confirm that you are not the only crazy one out there 🙂. I had my first existential crisis before the age of 10. I contemplated eternity in light of "the void" and I immediately realized that if there is no God then life has no meaning. It set me on a lifelong course of pursuing objective meaning i.e. God. I always joke by saying I wake up every morning an Atheist and then I find Jesus by 11 am. William Lane Craig's essay "the absurdity of life without God" as can be found on the reasonable faith website also speaks to existentialism in a way that has benefited me.
Awesome video, Gavin. This is something that I've been thinking about for a long time. Will be checking out your book!
awesome, hope you enjoy!
Yes! I resonate. Since I was about 12 years old, I've often thought about life and death, the meaning of life, and the existence of a higher power. It does seem that every human has a desire for God, love, and meaning. Which CS Lewis famously said, If we all have this innate desire for God, is seems reasonable to assume that God exists.
And yeah, the truth is, atheism logically leads to moral outrage. The proof is in the pudding. Atheists can come up with a bunch of smart arguments to prove that atheism doesn't lead to higher rates of immorality, but for the average person who claims to be an atheists, their life is going to full of sin or wrong-doing. Jordan Peterson talks about this. Like tbh, if I didn't believe in an afterlife, God or universal right or wrongs, I promise you, I would be a selfish man, I'd give my whole life to make money, have a lot of sex, smoke weed, eat expensive food, cheat, lie, steal and so on. If we are all going to die soon and there is no judgement or God or afterlife, then WHY NOT? And yeah, if atheism is true, then suicide genocide and murder are all not that big of a deal tbh, if we are just highly evolved animals and we are all going to die soon, who's to say you shouldn't? Be a selfish hedonist.
WOOOOOOO. Love your channel
Extremely interesting and powerful video. I, too, got interested in existentialism as an undergraduate, and although I ended up pursuing more analytic-driven philosophies of science, I never stopped thinking existentialism stood as one of the two most important commentaries on the human condition in a secularized, industrial civilization in which two forms of materialism prevailed: metaphysical and monetary. (The other is postmodernism.) I left academia but have continued independent scholarship and writing (my own book is on Amazon). I hope to read yours in the near future. On a limited budget just now; not sure I can buy any more books this year, alas, but it is definitely on my reading list.
Dr. Ortlund, I would love to hear you speak on this topic more. As someone with depression and anxiety, it helps a lot to soothe some of the pain and suffering that comes at 4am when I can't sleep from fear of death. Existentialism is basically what depression feels like for me; utter despair and meaninglessness is all that lies in the universe, and I'm only tricking myself into believing in God because otherwise I couldn't function.
I’ll do my best to speak to that David. May God bless you and guide you and direct you.
You could just as easily say an atheist is only tricking herself into functioning because otherwise she couldn't face the utter despair and meaninglessness that is all that lies in her universe.
God bless you. I'm not arguing with you. I'm very much the same way. Waking up in panic at night. Feeling hopeless at the crack of dawn. Believing in God during the day, especially when I have something from the Holy Spirit to read or listen to.
as an agnostic who loves existential thinkers, you have a great mind and imagination to be open enough to even ponder existentialism as it challenges faith so heavily. instead you turned it into a reason to believe in your faith more which is awesome but for others who don't or refuse to believe in a god, this is where a lot of humans struggle. i like how you are open minded to all of these intense thoughts as a religious man. thank you.
This video warmed my heart, it reminded of who I was before becoming a christian, and it helps me make sense of what people are going through nowadays, people don’t have meaning, people have a false sense of purpose, and I just want i way to connect with them and tell them how Christ is what they need.
Thanks Gavin. Great video. Really resonates and touches a deep nerve in my heart.
Love, love, love these videos. Thank you!
Dear Dr. Gavin,
Again, such a great video. The past few months I was just getting into existentialist literature and I was struggeling how to place it so to say. This video helped a lot like with one of your next videos regarding Budhism. I was almost jumping in my chair in my excitement about the hope and joy of Christianity. FYI: I listen via Spotify, appreciate it greatly that you upload them to spotify. Came to youtube to provide this comment.
Thanks so much for the kind comments so glad you have found value in the videos!
Thanks, Gavin. I needed this exactly right now.
This was a great video. I have really enjoyed watching your content over the past few months. Thank you.
Great insights. I love how you break down complex philosophy and make it easy to understand. This was very relatable. God bless you!
Sir, this was a beautifully made video. I am 18 years old studying at Boston College and the questions of existentialism began to press me as I began college. Growing up Christian, these questions were extremely hard to answer and have caused a great deal of anxiety. I absolutely love how you respect, and resonate in a sense with the thought of Camus, because in reality, wha he says does make sense. However, how you tie it into Christian thought was beautiful. I am very glad I found this video. Thank you so much. I am very interested to learn more on this topic and want to begin studying Christian existentialism!
God Bless you Gavin, and thank you for all that you do!
Really looking forward to your video on Buddhism. I live in Japan, so it is extremely relevant to my situation.
Please pray for the church in Japan! Pray for the people of Japan to open up their hearts to the Lord!
Thanks!
Matt
thanks! just said a prayer for the church in Japan. My brother has done two trips there to support a seminary there, and shared with me how challenging a context it is for the church.
I read philosophy as an undergrad as well at a small liberal arts college. Often wished I had studied it in grad school, too, but I’ve spent 35 years reading it, along with theology. When I was 20, I had a very similar response to Camus. Your analysis is very like my own. I came home on holiday, took a long backpack with my wonderful father, who talked to me about the angst as a necessary part of human life. It’s necessary to look into the abyss to find a faith that endures. This is Beautiful work.
Thanks for the discussion. You make a good point and maybe we don't communicate it well enough that the Christian Faith does allow for questions and some degree of doubt. The difference for me in my journey is that just like before i became a Christian I still have struggles with meaning and understanding but before I assumed that if I did not know or understand the answers that it meant that there were no answers. Now I can accept that the existence of answers or meaning is there whether I can know them. Just because I don't know does not mean that there is nothing to know. Mark 9:24 is where I am often.
Thanks for sharing. I do believe a true faith is "bumpy" at times. May God guide and bless you.
Very useful. Am going to listen to it again!
I woke this morning with the word "existentialism" echoing in my head. Why did God put this word in my head? Where did I hear this word from? Sociology class? So I Googled the word to find the definition. Then momentarily I was led to watch your RUclips video. I thought about Solomons book on Ecclesiastes. Life is vanity unless we have Gos to give is purpose and His love to give us significance. I thought about Queen's song Night of the Opera and "The Dark Night of the soul" by St John of the Cross. I was delighted with your conclusion at the end of this video. The Just shall live by faith. God gives us this struggle to drive us to Him. This verse brought Martin Luther relief as he was struggling with sin in his life. I'm not a good student of philosophy and have difficulty in grasping the concepts but your video taught me a lot and I feel it would be a great discipling tool to reach people for Jesus. Seems like you have an anointing of Ravi Zacherious.
Loving the philosophical content. Great video.
I just listened to Cosmic Skeptic blame Christianity for why Atheism often leads to Nihilism. The idea being, because the Christian Faith asserts the need of God with respect to Meaning and Purpose, those who finally reject the Faith are under the impression that the only thing remaining is nothing, purposelessness. He represents an inconsistent Atheist; i.e., an Atheist who refuses to run his worldview to its ultimate conclusion.
Thanks for these reflections.
Well I think he would respond that atheists don’t have to believe in ultimate meaning to have short term personal meaning. However when you grow up in church and hear every Sunday that if you become an atheist that you’ll live a meaningless life, it’s hard for deconverts to find that personal meaning because they’ve been taught that only Ultimate meaning matters.
@@Iamwrongbut I understand that point he attempts to make. But he is attributing the problem in the wrong direction. Nihilism is a feature of a consistent, atheistic worldview, and not a bug caused by an abandoned Christianity.
As Solomon writes, God has placed eternity into our hearts. It follows, then, that our hearts will not find rest unless and until they rest in God, as St. Augustine writes.
@@Iamwrongbut Clever name. Lol
@@Iamwrongbut So how would atheists take into account this same problem for those from an eastern perspective? My own view is that it is a human universal regardless of culture that everybody has some sense of eternity, order, and their own telos, and a longing for these to be fulfilled, whether they be from the east or west.
@@marcuswilliams7448 I think the “bug” as you call it is the idea that meaning can only be found in religion. To an atheist, they will accept that Ultimate or Eternal meaning cannot be found in the world, but personal meaning can be created. To say that isn’t true meaning is to beg the question that atheism is false.
RUclips algorithm really helping me out today
I feel understood, thank you
There's something I've always loved about Albert Camus, and that made me prefer him over Heidegger's overly abstract views, or Sartre's seamingly cynical approach to life, and I may have just discovered the reason by listening to this. Camus seemed so close to my deepest feelings, I remember reading "The Stranger" many years ago, and feeling so infatuated and helpless at the same time (it wasn't a good moment of my life ha!). There was something fascinating in the way existencialism seemed to reverse de cartesian cogito ergo sum, idea that was driving me crazy back then, though it didn't offer any answer to what my heart was really searching for either. I love how conteplating the abyss of life's uncertainty helped you find meaning for all things in God, because in a way it was my path too. After philosophy dragged my face over a season of nihilism, the reality of God came to answer most of my questions, and after that even philosplophy tasted different.
"Faith is in the place of desperation"... mate, you basically summarised my path to Christ there.
Brilliant thanks!
If anyone has trouble with existentialism I'd recommend Ecleistaes(:
Ecclessiates pretty much IS the christian response to existentialism, yeah. "Yeah life is meaningless. Without God, at least. Because God IS the meaning of life."
@@ChristianVazquez12 exactly lol
I know this is really late, but this was an amazing awsome video today! I studied English Literature and Philosophy. Similar to your time, I read all Sartre, Camus, Kafka, Nietzsche and all of the standard Greeks. I found kierkegaard hard to connect with. Pascal was great, and helpful to me.
Man. I was just reading about Søren Kierkegaard.
Have any of you studied Ecclesiastes? Thank you for mentioning this great book 11:18. All that is outside God is meaningless! At the Cross!
Great video! I think I will get your new book on audible :) Also, do you have a book recommendation list? Such as your top books to read?
not yet, but good idea for a video topic
This is the topic of my graduate thesis, and I think the problem ends up being an issue with "normative reasons." All we have to do is defend the mysterious idea that God is Himself Reason, from which normative reasons flow. But that may only be satisfying on a non theoretical level. It is satisfying, though, to one who has seen the Beatific Vision. This vision might be the solution to existentialism and doubts about meaning.
Fingers crossed my paper on this is published this January. In revise and resubmit phase.
good luck in your search for publication!
Ecclesiastes cracked it for teenage me
"Faith is like falling in love." Yes. You can't really know the girl well enough to explain the attraction, until long after you have made the irretrievable commitment to care about and for her. God is the same, once you build on the basis of faith, to try to deny it feels like looking into the abyss of a bottomless pit. Without God, you will fall forever, and you will be eternally lonely, longing for anyone else to talk to, just to fill the emptiness of your heart.
And lacking any foundation, the relativism of values will lead you to imagine your own self-serving morality, which ends up making enemies of everyone else, because none will ever agree. And the final ending of that is what we would call "Hell."
In the end, Pascal's wager is the only game in town. We choose to believe, because without faith we will go crazy.
Great video. How does the prospect of hell fit in to all this for you? As a Christian you don't have the existential angst about your coming annihilation, but it can also manifest the far greater one of immortality in hell. Some Christians live thier lives petrified of this outcome for themselves and people they care about. Some have made the point that Christianity (e.g. Calvinism) is far more pessimistic than any secular philosophy, and some early church fathers even espoused some antinatalist themes. A video on this topic would be interesting.
I've been going through deconstruction myself and it's incredibly painful and scary. Dealing with the uncertainty of certains things or question some previously held belief is scary. Studying calvinism, which is the position I grew up with, has really made me question the motivations of God. I can't back up other positions, but certain ideas of TULIP are really difficult to understand. Why God would only save the elects instead of sending Jesus to save everyone. I know there are answer and I'm searching for them and learning, but the process is hard, the doubts painful. Studying archeology has put many questions in my mind that are hard to unravel. The exodus is a particularly difficult one. If the bible is in error with that, what else could be wrong? Can we trust the scriptures anymore? Is the bible really inerrant? The debates between catholicism, orthodox and protestants. I am so afraid of losing faith or finding out none of it is real. Existantialism is precisely why I'm scared of it, when I see people who have to face life with no hope, it breaks my heart. I suffer from depression and I have deep seasons of darkness, I can't even imagine how I would deal with life without God.
thanks for sharing; just said a prayer for you
@@TruthUnites thank you, I really appreciate that
I've had what I believe is a direct connection to god, and one of the things I thought I wouldn't need is faith, but apparently he's insistent that I experience despair despite his presence, I can only think that it's so I don't get too uppity and self righteous
Life has as much meaning as your average Garfield comic strip. Believing in Jesus helps cope with facing the dust of it all.
That phase ironically I think ended up making my faith stroger in the long run.
Not all existelist philosophy ate atheistic in nature. The father of existentialist philosophy Soren Kiierkegaard, was a devoted protestant Christian.
What’s your take on Paul Tillich?
You cite a phrase from the end of Sartre's essay but forget what he says right after,
"Existentialism is not atheist in the sense that it would exhaust itself in demonstrations of the non-existence of God. It declares, rather, that even if God existed that would make no difference, that's our point of view. Not that we believe God does exist, but we think that the real problem is not that of His existence; what man needs is to find himself again and to understand that nothing can save him from himself, not even a valid proof of the existence of God. In this sense existentialism is optimistic. It is a doctrine of action, and it is only by self-deception, by confusing their own despair with ours that Christians can describe us as without hope."
So it doesn't matter if God exists or not according to Sartre here although he also said God's non existence was the starting point. I don't think logical consistency was as important as rhetoric to him.
Also the contradictions in Camus' philosophy are part of his point, he starts the Myth of Sisyphus by assuming that truth is unknowable and logic necessarily contradictory. He offers a few riddles in support of this if I remember right, but says he doesn't need to argue the point since everyone knows it's the case already.
The contradiction between choosing to rebel and the fact there's nothing to rebel for "creates energy". Apparently energy is good, although nothing is good, embrace contradiction. Sorry, I admit I didn't appreciate Camus as much as you did. Thanks for the video and it makes much more sense than anything I was force-fed from Sartre and Camus.
good addition on Sartre, thank you
What works would you recommend by Soren Kierkegaard?
It's interesting to me that anyone could claim that Sisyphus must be happy. His life is defined by fruitless toil. If fruitless toil is happiness then atheists really have a low bar for happiness.
"Existentialism is the good luck of Christianity" - Paul Tillich
When Dag Hammarskjöld was mentioned to be a Mystic just like Master Eckhart, then I am allowed to see you as an heir of Kierkegaard. It is so significant nowadays that "thinking christians" arise. And reflecting even thoughts of atheists, philosophers or humanists in the shadow of the Holy Scriptures must be considered significant as well...For our GOD loves them either...
Gavin referenced a meme that didn't exist.
Do you believe in faith alone?
I’m quite sure he does
A Baptist preacher? yeah pretty sure
Watch his other video on True Faith 👍
I would love to have seen how the growing body of literature on evolution’s effect on human psychology would have impacted Camus’ writings. It makes sense to think that we absolutely long for meaning in a world from the deepest parts of our hearts because our ancestors who did so created religions that conferred great survival benefits upon their community because of religions extreme unifying influence.
It answers the objection that because we long for something more than this world, something beyond this world exists.
Truly interesting, disscussed this with my psychology teacher, but its also interesting with martyrdom, 11 of the 12 disiples died for their belief , muslims risking their lifes for christianity, neither do we know why we long for eternity, through natural means and so on, perhaps God made us with these desires so we ought to seek this, and ultimatly Christ is the answer, he loves you, and calls you not to a comforting belief, but to lay your life down for he who laid it down for you, at calvary, be blessed and peace of Christ be with you!☺️
@@peterlindal3352 martyrdom is well documented in the animal kingdom among the hyper social creatures (like bees) because it supports the group so much that individuals overtime are selected for those traits. If the hive survives, so does the bee. Thus, those that are most social tend to survive and pass down their genes. It is similar for humans though for a lesser extent. So it makes sense that religious people throughout the centuries have died for their communities. They are biologically wired to do so.
@@Iamwrongbut I see, thanks for replying, my point regarding marytrdom was not about dying for ones group, rather for your beliefs. christians remaining in towns to be with the sick and broken did not do so out of their goodness, but out of Gods love, revealed on the cross, and we get to lay down ourselves in love for each other, because Jesus did this for us. May his peace be with you friend!
@@peterlindal3352 your beliefs are your community. You cannot be a Christian in a vacuum and those Christians that isolate themselves often stray or leave the faith because they are not plugged into the body. A bee that leaves the hive doesn’t survive long.
Martyrdom makes sense for strong beliefs because the martyr believes it will benefit the religion (the community). If a martyr goes to their death, it shows their commitment and hopefully can be used to convert others which grows the religion they are dying for. They want others to see Jesus, so they die for Him, specifically because it helps the church grow.
@@Iamwrongbut Yes, while they most certainly are connected, i do think it is somewhat more complicated, i am not referring to Jihadist killing and dying for their beliefs, the disciples had no choice but to die or leace behind their old faith, it could be possible that they thought of benefitting their community, but i think they reflected.Christ self sacraficial love in their actiones, just like we need something external to change us towards something different, the holy spirit makes us more like Christ, by love, and through love. They also had hope beyond this life, which to me also seems weird given merely evolutionary framework. Christianity is the sacrifice of the strongest for the surival of the weakest, and this is what i expirience every day, i hope you also will partake in this friend, blessings!
4:25 … rather a muddled, dust-jacket understanding
Kierkegaard and Dostoyevsky were Existentialist and Christians!
1 Corinthians 15:3-4
Dostoyevsky...look there
I believe Camu's absurdism is closer to the truth than anything else.
There are Christian existentialism.
No, Christianity is absurd.
It absolutely makes sense. I'm so thankful I arrived at that point where God was the only option. He's always there waiting for us to come. He won't force you. He's a patient Father.
Yes at this point it is important to see Christians not only reciting verses from the Bible, but also reflect their thoughts and public opinions. Often it is displayed like thinking is prohobited in church...While it is not...There are great and meaningful thinkers in Christianity as well, worthy to mention. Yet as for you and many others, a loving caring God revealed through Christ, is the remedy. And after 2000 years still an open heavenly offering to us merely mortals...
@@carpentersson77 Amen friend. It's definitely not a sin to think. Christians should think well. God gives us a spirit of clarity. I love Gavin because he stands up for our faith without getting in knock down, drag out fights.
Spot on.
Kierkegaard and Pascal are fantastic. You don’t have to agree with them at all times to profit from their unique, keen insight.
I have thought that faith is like falling in love, too! I really enjoyed hearing your thoughts on this. Really looking forward to your video on Buddhism! That's a topic that comes up often and that I don't know much about yet!
Edit: I edited after you gave me a heart 😅 Oops!
When I was thirteen I planned to murder my parents and then commit suicide because of atheistic existential thoughts like these. It's specifically because of a form of Pascal's Wager (i.e. not wanting to risk jumping into the dark only to find that a hell exists) that I backed out of my plan.
wow, that may be the most dramatic application of Pascal's wager I've ever heard. thanks for sharing
Like all the atheists I've read Camus never runs all the way to the goal line, but inevitably punts long before. As in "The Plague", where he talks in the end about "love" having ultimate meaning for people that encourages us to act, or Dawkins talking about our genes having complete control over us, and yet we must fight them, but the how or why is not explained. Same thing with Sam Harris- the implications of atheism is so toxic to life that they are ignored, and some kind of system of ethics fabricated out of thin air.
Camus' "The Stranger" posits a person who is completely inhuman and without any feeling, and yet in the end having murdered someone for no reason, is exultant. Why? No explanation. Again, no points scored.
Thank again, Gavin, really enjoy your talks.
Have you read the myth of Sisyphus? I think it is the most direct work on the implications of atheism ever written. He takes it past the goal line and into the bleachers
@@Iamwrongbut I am not disputing that he makes his point about absurdity, but it all resolves into feelings. He says the universe and everything in it is absurd EXCEPT his feelings about how Sisyphus may feel. So ultimately the book could be titled "How to score in football without ever playing football". I'm not trying to belittle him, but he is stepping on the mines he just finished laying, in the same way people say there is no truth except the truth about there being no truth. If you say there is no solid ground, planting a flag is impossible.
@@dennistoufexis5790 you might want to read the Myth again. He lives in the contradiction which is how he defines with the absurd is. So of course him making a statement about the snide is absurd! Life to him is contradiction. And that’s what he views the world to be from an atheistic worldview. Seems pretty consistent to me
@@Iamwrongbut "But Sisyphus teaches the higher fidelity that negates the gods and raises rocks. He too concludes that all is well. This universe henceforth without a master seems to him neither sterile nor futile. Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night filled mountain, in itself forms a world. The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy"
He makes all kinds of non-absurd statements therefore he is extremely inconsistent. Just replace every third word with "absurd" and then he'd be consistent. Instead, he says "seems neither sterile nor futile". That statement is absurd in an absurd universe, and yet Camus wants us to think it has grounded meaning, or he wouldn't say it. Thus with every phrase he uses he is constantly injecting meaning into the universe, after spending most of the work treading on meaning. "Higher fidelity"? Based on what, exactly?
Really excited to watch this video as a Christian person who just bought like 5 Friedrich Nietzsche books lol. I am studying him, and then Fyodor Dostoevsky next. Definitely need to hear a Christian perspective of these ideologies.
Kirkegaard is like the Christian opposite of Nietzsche.
I've only done surface reading of both but that's my impression.
very cool! enjoy. There is so much profit in reading those guys. You might be interested in my discussion of them in Why God Makes Sense in a world that Doesn't. God bless.
@@TruthUnites I am definitely gonna pick up your book! Been really enjoying the channel lately, and the passages you read from it sound very well written and insightful!
@@natebozeman4510 awesome, hope you enjoy!
Have you read the books? I've read a lot of Kierkegaard lately and wanted to take a look at Nietzsche. What are your thoughts as Christian reading Nietzsche?
Fantastic work (as usual) Gavin. I was an existential nihilist as an atheist but I wasn't well read on it so this video helped tie a neat little bow around that in a way. Interestingly, after encountering God I sought to know Him better through Eastern disciplines, albeit more hinduism/yogic, so I'm looking forward to hearing your perspective on Buddhism too. God bless and Happy New Year.
I think your channel is wonderful, so interesting and informative 👍 thank you!!!
Interestingly enough, I believe there is tremendous amount of concord between some existential philosophy and Christian theism. One of my areas of focus as a mental health counselor
This spoke to me. The sort of questions raised here are constantly in my mind, daily. I do want certainty, badly, and fellow Christians usually don't understand that felt need and see it as antithetical to "faith." I feel like existentialists pastamd present do such a better job at describing the world as it feels to me; your language of being cast into existence without a guide or playbook is typical of their writing.
As you've described the problem so well, I will definitely be pondering your take on the solution. Maybe Pascal and Kierkegaard do have some hope to offer here. Maybe I don't understand Pascal's wager and there is some hope there. And most importantly, maybe you're right about there being something positive about the fact that I have all this existential dread (Kierkegaard's "anxiety") inthe first place.
Thanks for giving me some new things to think about!
Dr. Francis Schaeffer's work was helpful for me concerning Christian Philosophy.
Francis Schaeffer was hugely significant in my conversion whilst I was a medical student in the 1970s.
His analysis of Camus' La Peste ( The Plague) was vital for me. Camus writes of a plague in Oran, Algeria. Schaeffer's analysis is that Camus invites the reader to fatalistically accept the plague as ordained by God and thus side with the Priest or side with the Doctor, oppose God and strive to limit the effects of the plague.
Wrong says Schaeffer. This world is fallen and God has allowed men and angels to rebel with catastrophic consequences for the whole world, including plagues . God has thus permitted but not ordained the plague. We can thus side with the Doctor in his work without thus being in rebellion against what God has ordained.
I found and still find Schaeffer's argument sound. I am not at all sure how a higher Calvinist could critique Camus' position. If - as per the Westminster Confession - God has sovereignly and unchangeably decreed whatsoever comes to pass - then surely Camus is right that God ordained the plague and the Priest has a point. Opposing whatever there is in the world is then opposing God's will.
Anyway thanks Gavin. I believe you're a Calvinist.....
God bless.
This was very interesting. I haven’t heard much about Existentialism, but it’s nice to have a word/category for these thoughts and feelings in this particular Philosophy. Could you do a video on the opposite side of the pendulum that is NOT Christianity? If there is any other philosophical explanation other than Faith (I’m ignorant)?
glad it was interesting! I am happy to do that -- do you mean atheism, or a different religion?
Man, it seems like all the content you put out is exactly what I’m interested in! Thanks for the video!
awesome. Camus has always been very attractive to me. I rly appreciate his frankness + writing quality but the way he lived and his mentality appeals very strongly to my flesh as well. Especially as a super emotional person I was gripped by The Stranger and sometimes (sinfully) imagine I could live like that. I guess I would/did try to live like that without Christ, but it's not sustainable unless you harden yourself to an almost pathological degree.
I love that Kierkegaard quote too - I'm struggling through one of his books called Either Or at the moment... seriously struggling. But I love the Aesthetics and on pg.6 of your new book Why God Makes Sense In A World That Doesn't you helped me understand a little better what he's trying to do - thanks
we feel that when all scientific questions have been answered the problems of life remain untouched.
- wittgenstein
Thanks for sharing. I think dealing with modern existential thought is crucial as we think of how to reach gen z or just the younger people of this country. I am a youth minister in New England, and I see many youth struggling with existential despair. One problem, however, is to get them to seriously consider that despair, why it is there and what it is doing, rather than just trying to escape it with business.
Great video, I just watched another video yesterday by Bishop Barron called Ideas Have Consequences, in which he talked about various philosophy camps that are still influential now adays. And this is like a further more nuanced treatment on the topic of existentialism he mentioned. Thanks!
Excellent video--a lot of thoughts that I had not thought before.
I am sure you are all curious what I think, so here's my take. :)
I do believe my purpose here is to study and know God. I am a physician who enjoys biology and physics. Since God is the source of all that is, when I study these things I see glimpses of God and get to know him better. But when I study Him, I am most fulfilled since I am nearest to the goal! And since God is infinite and I am not, (and never will be) then for all eternity I can grow in my knowledge of him! So my purpose now is the same as my purpose for all time. And I believe the drive toward this purpose is in the heart of everyone.
So, then, for the athiest, the entire purpose of life has been nullified. It is like a banana in which the fruit itself has been removed and all that remains is the skin...which is not pleasing, does not satisfy, and quickly rots.
PS: I would see this "knowing God" includes ever-increasing love, devotion, and worship of Him. In fact, I would say in my redeemed state I am designed such that the more I know him, the more I desire to glorify him.
It’s interesting to me that so many early modern intellectuals conceptualized their own versions of a self-motivated person.
Ernst Jungers Anarch, Nietzches Ubermensche, Camus Rebel, Evolas Aristocrat of the Soul etc.
Of them all, Kierkegaards Knight of Faith was the only one that ever mad since to me. We forge our own paths but ultimately we must hold that path up alone as sole individuals to God. Kierkegaard managed to marry the epic intensity of the ubermensche and rebel with the the calm solitude of the anarch, and he demonstrated the only way to do this was through absolute faith in God and the Christ.
I love your burst of childlike excitement at the thought of us all becoming patrons and your going to study philosophy - at 1:24
a guy can hope, right? :)
@@TruthUnites well I'm a newbie but can recommend to anyone because of the way you engage with your patrons
Well done. Take a look at Eric Metaxas new book - "Is Atheism Dead?" In it he claims (with documentation) that both Camus and Sartre had end of life conversions away from atheism to a belief in God, and both took a serious interest in Christianity. reading that certainly surprised me.
I've sat many a days in the UGA library reading on existentialism too, although from Kierkegaard. Didn't know you were a fellow bulldog, but glad to hear it!
One thing that has always annoyed me about Sarte's "existentialism is a humanism" was his misinterpretation of Abraham's anguish. Sartre says that Abraham didn't know whether he was talking to god or a demon, or whether he could be sure of gods commands, and thus was in anguish. In my reading, this didn't seem to be what Kierkegaard was saying at all. Abrahams anguish came from the fact that he had gotten everything he wanted: a son from his wife Sarah, and then God had demanded his sacrifice. I think a lot of existentialists tend to misread this passage and others from Kierkegaard, much to their detriment.
Would be curious as to your take on Dostoevsky and his Christian existentialism as expressed in novels like the Brothers Karamazov.
I go into it in Why God Makes Sense in a World That Doesn't. I treat Dostoevsky right next to Sartre and Nietzsche
@@TruthUnites kewl thanks
I’m listening to this, and it ABSOLUTELY resonates. I’m loving your RUclips channel, may God continue to bless and keep you Gavin!
Thanks a lot! So glad it connected!
I keep coming back to this video - it always refreshes me in different ways. That journal entry you read perfectly sums up how I've felt recently, especially in the nights - maybe it's something about being college-age lol. Thanks for your work Dr. Gavin, you're really appreciated. Also, I got baptized on Easter Sunday! Figured you'd want to know, since I've commented around on quite a few videos at this point :)
so glad you enjoy this video! I love talking about existentialism, but can never tell if there is as much interest in it, so I appreciate the feedback. And CONGRATS on getting baptized!! Awesome news!!
@@TruthUnites Thanks! Yeah, I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally would watch many more videos on the topic, probably multiple times over.
I went through a phase in which I read Camus and Sartre. It left me depressed and having thoughts of nihilism. The world view is diametrically opposed to Christianity. I am so glad the Lord pulled me through that.
Very good
Hey Gavin, I have been a fan of your family's writings for some time now, I have really appreciated your channel and this video resonated very acutely with me and my roommate. Your pastoral encouragement at the end is truly the crux of the way that God has saved my life since battling depression and existential crisis throughout my teen years. God met me in desperation, as he always has and always will. Thank you for this video, more people should watch it. I would love to sit down for coffee sometime, I have really appreciated your insight.
Thank you for this video. This was everything I needed to hear & more. God Bless!
Thank you
Gavin, regarding philosophy and metaphysics, would you adopt a moderate realist approach to metaphysics, some variation of that, or something completely different?
Love the vid, bought the audiobook, and am now listening to it. 👍
nice talk, it is not about meaning it is about matter with Jesus (philosophy) it is suicide to agree with meaningless life of Camus, it is a cute book but no match for Pascal, a Christian Follower and Math, "love of God" is essential!! John Lennox books are great as well!
Dr. Ortlund, thank you for your incredible videos and Christ like attitude. I’m a pastor and have struggled with these thoughts for as long as I’ve been a serious follower of the Lord Jesus.
I’m currently reading “The Wonderful Works of God” by Herman Bavinck, and have been helped by his chapter on the knowledge of God as not being merely different in degree, but in principle and essence, from other knowledge. Your words about all the possibility of all questions being answered and all knowledge acquired, but that that actually misses what existential angst is doing in us, was incredibly helpful and made me think of Bavinck’s words. Thank you again, from a grateful brother in Christ.
I can definitely resonate with existentialism as an early love in philosophy, as Dostoyevsky, Kierkegaard, and Buber (as well as, less so, the nontheistic existentialists) were one of my first experiences of philosophy.
If I could offer some (hopefully gentle) pushback, it would be regarding your second characterization of existentialism as "what atheism feels like". Now, this looks too narrow: it either precludes on things that should count as existentialism or, more minimally, fails to focus on more fundamental features of existentialism. Consider the theistic existentialists, who plausibly have equal claim to the name as their atheist counterparts. Kierkegaard's focus on authenticity vs. alienation, the single individual vs. the crowd, etc., and subjectivity vs. objectifying objectivity at times include contrasts with atheism or apply to evaluating it, but surely there is a positive project of understanding the first and second person and a turn away from the third (as Linda Zagzebski suggests is indicative of the modern and contemporary periods). Likewise, his and Nietzsche's cultural criticism (with N aiming it against Christianity!) is not properly captured by a study of "what atheism feels like" when they are NOT only critiquing atheists but ARE aiming at the dominant Christian culture.
Not only is there a positive project along with the negative project you identify, both the negative and positive projects share and show a more fundamental concern besides the death of god specifically: with Buber, we have the persons vs objects, in Nietzsche we have self-creation vs. ressentiment and self-denial, Charles Taylor and points to authenticity, Sartre has freedom and facticity, and etc. The authors, theist and nontheist, share a fundamental focus on self and subjectivity. God, in the theistic existentialists, can be a source of meaning or a harm to the self, as we in Shusaku Endo's Silence. Likewise, T. J. Mawson in his work on God and meaning in life, considers whether Sartre suggests a type of meaning only available on atheism (i.e., where I am the ultimate source of self-definition), and so atheism, and what it means for the self, is one of the applications of existentialist thought, but plausibly the fundamental issue is those clusters of questions surrounding what it means to be a subject in the first place, and a subject before God or without God is downstream.
You include ostensibly Christian existentialists like Kierkegaard, Dostoyevsky, and, inspiring them, Pascal. Their work, clearly, goes beyond the study of "what atheism feels like" and is more fundamentally about what the self feels like. Notice the question of self-creation and meaning does not go away when we add God nor does it for contemporary figures like T. J. Mawson, and a sense of despair, as Endo shows, can be had when deeply devoted to God.
Hello Pastor Gavin. This was a lovely talk. Exploring these ideas s challenging and enlightening. The things you read from the ending of your book describe my own experience in the passionate longing for God and the hard-won certainty that He has me in the struggle and the rest.glory and praise to Him.
I would like to raise a word of caution. You state that the pessimistic (that is, life without god is meaningless or less meaningful) sub-variety of atheistic existentialism is what it looks like for those who genuinely consider atheism's implications, adding it may be a subconscious experience. Perhaps this is an accurate characterization of several atheistic existentialists. But you go further: you contrast Sam Harris as an example of the Newer Atheism and the pessimistic sub-group of atheistic existentialists as the Older Atheism (around 7:30) as more, I quote, "honest" and "consistent", those who "get it" and "see" what life is like for the atheist. They might even being "smuggling in" meaning (12:00-12:10) to avoid the implications. Here, I see a historical note and a psychological note.
On the historical side, I would caution against using PALE (Pessimistic Atheistic Literary Existentialists) folk as representative of Old Atheism and its implications. In seeking representativeness, we need to ask about uniformity. Notice that citing the Pope *is* representative of ecclesiology when asking about Catholicism, but it would not be representative if you wanted to ask about what Christians - Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant - think in this domain, as there is much debate. We find the same thing with historic atheism/atheist-friendly views on meaning and morality with(out) God. Consider Ralph Cudworth, Pierre Bayle, the Third Earl Shaftesbury, and David Hume (and others in the late 17th and throughout the 18th Century). It is arguable whether some of these figures were atheists, but they were definitely early articulators or precursors of nontheistic-friendly ethics. They give reason to think we cannot speak of a monolithic older atheism that was nihilistic. The old atheism, like today, is too diverse for that. If I recall, you have reason to believe this, too, as you point to Nietzsche as critiquing British ethicists such as these figures in your videos on the moral argument.
Unfortunately, the threats to these figures' lives or careers also shows another danger with doing the history of atheism with PALE existentialists: work which did not support an anti-atheist polemic was oftentimes severely suppressed and with figures like Bayle and Shaftesbury having to even defend the idea that atheism does not guarantee one is vicious. The nontheistic ethicists and their friends show diversity and (surprising) overlap like they do today. Going with the PALE group, though, looks like selective, non-probability sampling.
Further, when selecting historic or contemporary representatives, we should be sensitive to features of their work which may undermine their candidacy as speaking as representatives. Hyperbole, multiple pseudonymous identities, usage of fallible narrators, ironic contrasts, satire or parody, etc. make for great literature (and perhaps rhetorical power), but they can easily evacuate a work of representing the genuine implications of a view. By contrast, the Analytic aims of clearly defining one's terms, identifying and stating assumptions, charitably exegeting and evaluating rival views and situating yourself amongst them, providing explicit arguments in a standard form (e.g., numbered premises, identification of inference rules, etc.), and identifying costs and benefits of one's own theory make for oftentimes dull reading but are generous to the reader by making oneself clear. I struggle to identify what these PALE figures' arguments are for the conclusion that life without God is meaningless. You, as well, cite their striking conclusions and your own sweeping prose, but these figures have all the markings of the former literary quality and little to commend them in terms of clarity in argument or charity towards rival views. It would thus be radically uncharitable to take them, rather than the leading contemporary figures in the meaning in life and metaethics literatures, as representative of the implications of atheism. Quote mining existentialists is a regular practice amongst contemporary conservative American evangelical apologists, but it is a bug, not a feature, of those aiming to be friends of skeptics.
Thank you Gavin, Truly. Despair and nihilism led me to Christ. Every day is a struggle but I take inspiration from the saints. God bless. My one question would be. When I worry if there is nothing when I am in complete distress that no God can hear me how can I sort it out in my mind? I guess how do you favour the odds of God being more probable than a meaningless universe with no God because I understand that is truly what atheism is. I don’t know if I’m explaining it well but is there a way that I can practically put in my mind the impossibility of nihilism