Love both of your guys’ channels! I appreciate both of your careful considerations of God’s word as well as your humble approach to tackling topics such as these. God bless.
Young man who listens to you here. I think this hyperaggressive masculinity has also been seen in online debates and I think you have been a good example in showing that one can be gentle as a man, even in firm disagreement
I love your point about stereotypes. A lot of people in my generation will reminisce about "waiting for Dad to come home from work and help them with math homework." In my family, it was completely the opposite. My mom was the math expert, and I would wait for my dad to come home and help me with my English essays. However, in terms of Biblical marriage, they were an amazing model for me. My mom would always let my dad take the lead, but on the other hand, my dad always considered her feelings and would never let us disrespect our mom's authority. I wish more people would have the opportunity to grow up with parents like that.
My mom was a math nerd too, but she was also the English nerd. My dad was into history and theology. One way my dad displayed great masculinity, however is the way he disciplined us. My dad HATED disciplining us. Most of the time when we were bad, my mom would discipline us. But we knew we messed up big time when it was dad's turn. Not only did it hurt more because he was stronger, but we could see genuine pain in his eyes having to do it. He even drew a crying face on his paddle.
So thankful for this video. A few months ago, at our mens group, I taught that we're harming our young boys and men when we paint a picture that masculinity is a man with a beard, that hunts, watches football, and eats excessive amounts of steak. Doing this causes boys that don't like football etc. to question why they are not as masculine as they should be, which in the extreme cases can lead to vulnerability and even questioning their gender. Instead of stereotyping what a man is, we need to ground masculinity in biblical truth. Thank you Gavin for another great video and resource. Maybe this speaks to me so much simply because I can't grow a beard and prefer baking over football.
Most of my family are huge football fans (even half of the girls). When I was a kid I enjoyed watching games with the family, learning the rules, and idolizing certain players. By my teen years, however, I was already phasing out of it. I was passionate about writing, poetry, music, theology, philosophy, language, and other such things. Honestly though, I never felt "effeminate" for pursuing poetry and language. I realized that this was another side of masculinity that is less praised but just as important. One of my favorite poems is a line from Mark Hall's song City On a Hill: "You see the poets thought the dancers were shallow, And the soldiers thought the poets were weak. And the elders saw the young ones as foolish, And the rich man never heard the poor man speak. But it was the rhythm of the dancers that gave the poets life; It was the spirit of the poets that gave the soldiers strength to fight. It is the fire of the young ones that is the wisdom of the old; It is the story of the poor man that's needing to be told."
I've struggled with this frustrating narrative for most of my 50 years, a narrow definition of what a man should and shouldn't like, or that the spectrum of masculinity somehow correlates to having certain tastes, preferences, and personalities. It's quite tiresome when I know that my masculinity is not tied to any of these things. But the social pressure is there.
I’m glad to see others picking up on the quote:: “We are not called merely to be resistant to error. We are called to incarnate truth with beauty and love.”
I don't think you can find a verse to justify that is what the Churches mission is, or for individual Christians should have as our goal in living the Christian life. I doubt the prophet Ezekiel, Jeremiah, or John The Baptist thought in these terms. It's best for Christians to follow the example of the Apostle Paul...who even one time called a man a Son of the Devil and cursed him with blindness. Or when the Lord Jesus Christ drove out the greedy money lenders with a whip of cords he fashioned not to just whip around. Yes, I think that's loving and a beautiful thing too...but most or at least the average 21st Century evangelical churchmen do not understand God is the One who Sovereignly saves, and is not dependant on His on incarnating truth as to appear beautiful to other people. The wicked consider what we consider beautiful to be an abomination please remember by nature and by their own corruptions, hard heartedness and and willful blindness as a rule (I guarantee that statement would offend many even not newcomers to the channel.. The Proverbs and Psalms cannot be tolerated expositionally from a large number of pulpits because they might be perceived as being too harsh and un-loving ( I can prove it). But things aren't going well in the western modern evangelical Church to date, and people have very bad and also un-biblical definitions to begin with, and therein lay many little foxes that ruin the vineyards. Honestly, I have not watched the video yet (but will), because I am curious to what the controversy is and to see what Gavin says. I just know we are in the days of John Piper at the Shepherds Conference saying our love for God needs to be erotic (?), and there are many enemies against God and his people who rage and imagine vain things (Psalm 2). Being kind and faithful is our calling to be sure with many other duties to fulfill conduct wise (with God's glory in mind should always be foremost to us). There is a season and time to act like men as Paul says, and to answer fools according to their folly (or not). Grace to the humble, and Law to the proud when dealing in street evangelism is a good rule that usually works well in all cases, and we see that attitude modeled in Scripture everywhere (the Daniel and Belshazzar account come to mind). When I hear the term beautiful (and my vocabulary is above 12th grade level I assure), I think of a flower, or sunset or something peaceful and still. Maybe a pretty woman (the Bible uses the word comely to describe such, as well as fat to describe Eli, or tender-eyed when speaking of Leah which means she wasn't so much as enjoyable to look at, as opposed to well favored Rachael...God's Words, not mine), or the whole Creation could be called beautiful. I do not see the word used in the NT but 4 times, and it always relates to the Lord directly or indirectly in the whole Bible...often it speaks of a place (like the gate at Jerusalem), or did I miss a new translation amongst the myriads (Romans 10 would be the closest example it seems to defend the concept put forth by the video and the comments I am reacting to solely at this point...but again, that OT re-quoatation is from the perspective of the Righteous One and the saved ones who are righteous by his total and absolute obedience to the will of the Father...not those who never intend to bow the knee to King Jesus). When speaking of incarnating truth.... isn't it wise to reserve that term only for the Incarnate Word who was the Truth Incarnate alone? Yes, we may be little Christ's (the term for Christians originally as it is often taught...a slur of derison), but without Him we can do nothing, nor should we try (it always ends badly in my case), and this teaching could needlessly lead to some bad outcomes because of false teachers and faulty understandings?. We really do need God's grace and power desperately, not only in our lives, but many of us are desperate to see Him do his work everywhere at all times in glorifying Himself (whether in Judgements or in the Father's House getting filled up, and I do want the latter much more at this stage of my everlasting life). Ok, now I will watch the video. And I think that Gavin has done a great job, in debating many issues others are not, or refuse to. I speak especially of dealings with EO beliefs. His work in that area has been a blessing to me personally in working through some of those things. Also, I have copied some of Gavin's ways (in having a sweeter way of speaking to others in general, not only when talking about God with others (as much as can be gathered from videos and not knowing him personally). I am thankful to God for his work.
Non-Christian here. Wondering why this quote resonates with you? The statement did stand out to me, but honestly i chuckled and wrote it odd as simple hyperbole of the type that you usually hear from much less educated preachers than gavin
@@davidvernon3119 Christ is truth in the flesh - truth incarnate. As a Christian, which literally means “little Christ”, it is my calling/duty/delight to put my whole, real person into speaking and living the truth of the good news that God is and that the pinnacle of history is Jesus - his person and work. The Bible is a living book. Christianity is not a dead faith. It’s Savior isn’t dead, it’s Words are not dead, and its followers should be real-life, flesh and bone, incarnate, walking testimonials to such a humbling and wonderful truth.
Emotional expression is one of those things our cultural stereotyping really gets wrong. It’s parroted by both sexes who are overreactive complementarians that emotional intelligence is somehow an inherent property of being a woman and that men need to “learn” emotions from women-when emotional intelligence is an individual property, and I’ve met many men who were extremely in touch with their emotions (and still what we might call stoic!) whereas I’ve met many women, who, while they expressed their emotions more visibly, were a lot more clueless about recognizing and handling emotions in others.
Absolutely. Another issue is how society claims men should express emotions but not anger, which for biological reasons it's the go to emotion men feel most of the time. So you can express emotions, but only the emotions women usually express eg sadness and crying. If you express yourself in a natural way you're a toxic man
I'm one of those women who does not know what to do with people's emotions. I am getting more expressive of my own as I age, but in general I don't process them well and do not relate with people through emotion. It can be viewed as strength as I appear to not fall apart during a crisis (that can be useful) but the weakness is lack of depth in relationships because I hold people at a distance. For the first 30 years or so of my life I didn't even know I was doing it.
I find it interesting that the greatest writers, composers, and painters of some of the most georgous and emotional works of art through history have been men. That is partly because, culturally, women were not supposed to be artists, but I believe it also goes to show that strong, passionate men have the ability to feel sincere and intense affection and emotion. As an emotionally expressive man, I will testify that my poetry, music, and writing have never been contrary to any semblance of masculine strength, but have only served to couple my strength, intellect, and emotion all to the sake of godly loyalty. I am not perfect by any means, but I will testify that loyalty - even affectionate loyalty - is in desperate want among men today; my heart goes out to any man who is caught in the grips of lies teying to dimish or stunt masculinity. That is why I am very grateful to you, Dr. Ortlund, for addressing this topic.
"Culturally, women were not supposd to b artists"? Are you sure it was "cultural" issue? That twisted perspective views of the history is what got us into trouble in the first pace. Even now, 99% of well-known and celebrated artists are still men. Is that a "cultural" issue?
@@thomasc9036 Perhaps. That is a larger discussion, so I offered a short (and, admitedly, perhaps sloppy) summary it in my coment. Your conclusion on the topic shouldn't have any effect on my larger point about masculinity, but I appreciate your being so thoughtful as to point that out.
@@jtbasener8740 What do you think is causing the hypermasculinity? We tend to blame previous Christian Europeans and descendants for world's problem like slavery, colonialism, etc. The reality is that the colonialism was the best thing to happen to the world. Not only did Christianized Europe/Whites outlaw slavery, prostitution, and many other evils in the world, they brought technologies and many medical innovations to these underdeveloped world. What is happening now? These children who were brought up with low self-esteem are rebelling. They are turning to anyone to anything who sounds remotely resemble strong masculinity. We pushed these young men too far and now they are pushing back...angrily.
@@thomasc9036why do you believe most artists are men now? That’s not in agreement with statistics I’ve seen. Maybe more men make it to the very top because their wife is the one taking care of the kids on the evening and weekends? Statistically women do most of the childcare and house are even when they work full time - say as an artist. But yeah, historically, women had very little education, had about a dozen kids and before modern conveniences, worked extremely long hours. Of course, most poor men also worked long hours. A few privileged, wealthy men were taken in by the masters to train.
Also... you are an excellent example of what Christian love and charity looks like correcting others with gentleness (which none of us do perfectly I think).
That was not NEARLY as “effeminate” as John Piper saying our relationship with Jesus is “erotic to the core” 😬 There’s one I wouldn’t have any problem with people calling out, and being like “Wow, buddy… no, no… no… no, no, no… that ain’t right…”
@@toonnaobi-okoye2949 Pssst… OOF, big fail. An analogy is not meant to be a one to one perfect image of what it is analogizing. Just because the institution of marriage includes sexual intercourse, doesn’t mean that specific part of what marriage means is meant to be applied to the analogy between Christ, and his church. That’s just wrong, and disgusting.
@@brando3342well God designed sex to strengthen the union between a man and woman in marriage as well as for them to find more pleasure in the other. That is a type that does not even reach the fullness of the relationship between the church and Christ, I'm saying the church and Christ marriage is even better with even more pleasure, in the most pure way.
Gavin is THE MOST level headed teacher out there!. Everything is ALWAYS explained very well and he knows some will agree and some will disagree with him. Some of us get some things right but no one gets EVERYTHING right, except Jesus right?. ❤❤
So I am a woman and an egalitarian so I recognize this video is not really “for me” and I want to respect that and not derail the conversation too much. At the same time, I really appreciate your approach and agreed with most of your points, plus you’ve given me some good food for thought on some topics that I’ll be chewing on for a while I think. So I wanted to say thank you for engaging in these conversations because they are so important and you tackle them with a lot of needed grace and wisdom. There is an aspect of these types of conversations about “biblical masculinity” and “biblical femininity” that I often find really frustrating. And that is that these terms seem to always be either badly defined (like the “hypermasculine” personality type you critique in this video) or completely undefined. Even in this video, you say what “biblical masculinity” is NOT but never really say what you think it is or what “biblical femininity” would be. It seems implied that it has something to do with personality traits and that there is some biblical support for men and women having broad categorical differences in these traits. I guess my question/frustration is, why? Why do any values or virtues have to be gendered in the first place? I just don’t see that in the Bible at all. I see where gendered social/family roles MIGHT be indicated (I don’t think the case for that is particularly strong but I admit there is a case to be made nonetheless), but values? Personality traits? Character virtues? That’s just not in there at all that I can see.
@@JesusProtects My goodness, the sneering sarcasm is really not necessary here, my friend! We are all on the same side here. Just trying to follow Jesus and love others as best we know how. In answer to your question, my preferred Bible translation is the NASB, so no, not a gender neutral Bible. I am aware of the passages you are referring to. I do understand that if one is going to interpret and apply them in a rigid literal way, then it is reasonable to determine some gender ROLES from those passages. I agree that is one reasonable interpretation, though not the only one. However, that is beside the point of the comment I made. I am not challenging gender ROLES here, but rather gendered VALUES/VIRTUES. Even the way you paraphrased these passages illustrates the difference between the two concepts: “Men DO this, women DO that.” Those are actions/roles that are given to each gender. The modern discussion of “biblical masculinity” and “biblical femininity” goes far, far beyond those basic, arguable-but-defensible, points and gets into extrabiblical territory by assigning a certain set of characteristics/personality traits/values/virtues to men and another set to women. Hope that clears up what I was trying to communicate and thanks for taking the time to read through my explanation!
Really appreciate this, Dr. Ortlund. I'm currently teaching a class that attempts to take a more wholistic approach to anthropology and we've explored this issue of hyper masculinity (and distorted femininity). Thanks for offering a careful response.
Ahh, yes, nothing screams effeminate like saying, “Jesus thank you,” because as we all know, a man takes what he is owed and offers no gratitude. What I have noticed with hyper-masculine men is a non-normal fear of being effeminate. One of the most effeminate things you can do is be hypermasculine because you are afraid that if you don’t be as masculine as possible, you are being as effeminate as possible. I won't make any data claims or anything like that, but I have seen a good number of men raised in hyper-masculine environments claim that because they never felt masculine enough (e.g. because they felt like crying), they began experiencing same-sex attraction because they coveted men they perceived as more confidently masculine than themselves. If there is any remote truth about this, then hypermasculinity is a big problem.
I don’t think the issue is thanking Jesus. I think the issue the original poster had with this song was the style of music more than the message. I can’t say for sure, but that’s what I gleaned.
I think the hyperfocus on masculinity and femininity and creating all the stereotypes is a large factor in many people identifying as transgender. I was someone whose personality didn't match the cultural expectations of femininity, and I wanted to be a boy. Probably young boys want to be girls for similar reasons. Rarely a person feels physically uncomfortable with their body and much more often their disphoria results from cultural expectations placed on them for their gender.
There is no such thing as "hyper masculinity". A man either behaves in a proper (masculine) way or he does not. What people often refer to as "hyper masculinity" is simply immature, childish, prideful, and selfish behavior. That said, a lot of modern worship music is very shallow. That doesn't make it "effeminate", but it does make it "poor". I also think part of the problem is that a lot of "modern" worship music is written to engage your emotions, which is not correct. We SHOULD experience emotion in worship, but that emotion should come from the MESSAGE IN the songs we are singing, not the chord progression or instrumental bridge between verses. We should worship in spirit AND in truth. If you have only spirit, it is not faithful worship.
I concur! This is in fact a prevalent issue in IFB cirlces notwithstanding inherent Spititual Abuse. I remember sitting through a sermon at our former IFB church during which John 8:36 was quoted and I was moved in my Spirit bringing me to tears not because of the sermon itself but because of the Word of God and when I spoke to the pastor after while being teary eyed, he was completely indifferent and acknowledged it superficially and just walked away. Besides, wife and I left the church due to Spiritual Abuse and now we're focussed on gathering people in our house. And God has done great things in my life and the Holy Ghost has taught me so many things that I wouldn't have learned sitting in a pew bench or a chair and just listening to a monologue every week. In this case, it is was more of grooming by the pastor through topical sermons and his family to have his members conform to their stabdards of morality and righteousness that they themsleves couldn't meet on careful examination. And dare anybody question them at the risk of character defamation and the word backslidden will be weaponized in this case leading you to being excommunicated while the rest are instructed to not even talk to us or reach out to us or make any attempts to hear our side of the story lest they be proved wrong. I honestly think, church buildings have done more damage than good and I also believe there is a gross misunderstanding of the word, Church. It has become a corrput man-centric institution lead by megalomaniacs who are seemingly beyond reproof.
Such a powerful and biblically sound video. As an early 30’s father of four (3 boys), it’s constantly on my mind how best to raise sons to be masculine, but in a way that’s centered on Christ.
I'm so glad you reviewed this! It's frightening to see a comment like this, because you couldn't get more literally masculine and conservative (both theologically and politically) in terms of Shepard's Conference... There's nearly no one who would put down that particular conference or corner of Christianity for that specific reason.
Gavin, I am so happy to hear you push back. There has been a tide moving in our culture - but in the wrong direction! We need to return to Christ, our Archetype!
In most Southemrican cultures, if someone attacks someone else from a place of security without giving the opportunity to respond or retaliate, that person will be pretty explicitly called 'masculinity-compromising' names... if you know what I mean. Great video brother ⭐
I must say, I am so glad you addressed this issue in a video. Thank you, Gavin! I heard this story (about Pastor Armen’s comments about the music at the Shepherd’s Conference) a week or so ago when it was making the rounds, and it honestly broke my heart. Your response was very well articulated and just all around thoughtful (as per usual with you). Thank you for all you do! Keep up the good work!
Thank you for talking about this Gavin. You do such a good job calling out the selfishness, ugliness, and immaturity often manifesting in hyper-masculine culture. I love how you bring up the need to keep godly love supreme and the need to live out truth in a good and beautiful way. The distinction between biblical teaching vs cultural expressions is so important to discern as well. People need to recognize that virtue is what makes someone true, good, beautiful, and noble, and that masculinity and femininity will naturally express themselves in the males and females pursuing virtue itself.
As a subdeacon in Byzantine Catholic I laud Gavin Ortlund for his urgency and honesty expressed in this video. This is urgent because toxic masculinity confused what's true masculinity. Immature men have many insecurities so they over compensate this with hyper masculinity. Imagine how children would grow up if they saw their dad abuse their mom verbally, mentally, and spiritually. No wonder when they grew up they would mistreated their girlfriends or wives. They can't give what they never had. In India men wearing earrings. In some cultures men even wear makeup and wear jewelry as sign of masculinity. A man who is caring of his children and attentive to their emotional need is not effeminate. We need more masculine men who are partner in parenting. Do you know your kids teachers names? Their friends? Do you pay attention when they've emotional difficulties? St Paul commanded us to submit to one another. Wife submit to her husband and husband submit to his wife. This is not optional this is divine command. Unless we obey God's commands then there's something wrong with us. Marriage in Catholic and Orthodox is a holy sacrament it gives us grace for our holiness. Look at Mother Cabrini or most holy Theotokos who after St Joseph reposed herself alone raised Jesus as a teen mom. She taught Him how to pray and prepared His ministry by raising Him in the faith. There's nothing more masculine than when Jesus the true man submit, learn, and listen to a woman. Mature men want mature women. Immature boys want immature girls who they can control and bully. If your pastor abused you run away. If your clergy bully you expose them to public judgement. Love one another and protect those who can't protect themselves. Hyper masculinity is for vulnerable, immature, and insecure boys. True men listen to their daughters, respect their sisters, and love their wives. Toxic masculinity is from Satan not God.
I don't it helps Christians to use feminist terms like "toxic masculinity". They are coming from the premise the men should be softer and show a more feminine side, instead of letting men be men.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 both hyper masculinity and hyper femininity are toxic. Don't be deceived by Ortho Bros and Rad Trad Boys. If they want women to submit to them then they ought to obey God's commands through St Paul by also submit to their wives. Submit yourself to one another because you're one flesh not two. Mature man wants mature woman. Insecure boy wants insecure girl he can control, manipulate, and dominate. This is not from God this is from Satan. Christ never control, manipulate, or dominate His Church. He respects her and promises her whatever she binds He will bind and whatever she loses He will set lose. Christ submit Himself to the decision of His Church. Do to others as you expect others would do to you. Men who abuse their wives and children are not in position of authority because it is premised that they behave as Christ would be. When men behave as Christ would do then they deserves the authority and respect. So first they must be Christ-like. The ordering can't be reversed. Women and children must recognize and resist abusive men. When they insult Christ by not following His precepts on how to be good husbands and good fathers they have no authority and must be subjected to public judgement. I applaud Gavin Ortlund for speaking on this with urgency and honesty. His wife and children ought to be proud of him.
@@saintejeannedarc9460it’s a subset of masculinity and it’s toxic. What else should it be called? You’re further proving the point that’s being criticized by conflating softness with social castration. The Lord values the meek, they will inherit the Earth.
Thank you for your thoughtfulness here, Gavin. Lord Jesus, we pray for the wild insecurities of men, that they too can one day say your grace is sufficient, and accept the strength in our weakness.
A Thomistic idea of virtue works here. In the middle there is ideal man, on either side of that is sin. I think Aragorn in the Lord of the Rings is a good example of the ideal from modern culture.
Great video Gavin. your upcoming video topics sound so timely. The issue of slavery is a tough one and one I spent much time on myself. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Your ministry is a huge blessing.
Thanks for addressing this issue! Any time a person uses the term "effeminate" to deride another Christian brother, I am deeply disappointed. National pride, cultural expectations of "masculinity", and righteous anger are common areas where Christians may spiritualize and sanctify their own biases, or even sinful attitudes. Like the accretions of Catholicism, we too can unwittingly add things to the deposit of the faith. It is right for us to draw attention to unbiblical accretions emerging in our own contexts, not just focus on the historical accretions of Roman Catholicism.
What if it (effeminate ) is simply a description, and not an attempt at derision? The fact is, there are honourable and masculine men who are believers and they won't always be able to connect as well to actual effeminate worship styles, as they can to more traditional hymns, or orthodox chants which are more appealing to masculine men because of the lack of effeminacy. The Protestant church is losing males more so than females, to Orthodoxy, because mainline Protestantism is becoming more effeminate.
Thanks for this video Dr. Ortlund! I’m curious what you think about another trend amongst young men on being anti-marriage. I’m seeing a lot of men my age and younger (Gen Y and Z) who despite being Christian are incredibly anti-marriage to the point where they would be fine fathering children with random women but say they wouldn’t marry them, or one friend who jokes sometimes about having a harem, or others who say they’ll get married but won’t sign the marriage license, etc. Thoughts? I know society is stacked against men in matters of divorce and custody but it still seems unbiblical to completely oppose marriage in favor of hookups or shacking up.
Thank you. This is timely and much needed. I've noticed the same uptick in hypermasculinity recently. The way that there seems to be a sort of overcompensation is kind of ridiculous at times.
This is great, I studied this extensively in school, and one of the bizarre realities that I spend a considerable amount of time attempting to understand is the link between hypermasculinity and homoeroticism. We seldom relate the two, obviously, nothing could seem more feminine than two men in an ‘intimidate’ context. However, prior to the night of the long knives, the brown shirts movement, a hypermasculine and overly militant movement popular amongst disillusioned young men- was dominated by homosexual leadership that sprang from a deep and bitter resentment against women and the feminist movement. Homosexuality was a necessary requirement to rise up the leadership ranks, and it was seen as the most manly orientation possible. Quite bizarre?
Another catalyst to this problem has been the new interpretations of malakos in 1 Cor 6:9 as "effeminate," which then is used as a biblical basis for talking about being manly men all the time. It's an abuse of the word, which has a variety of meanings, but never ever is getting at the issue of just being 'more of a man.'
Ever met a mother? Mothers gladly take responsibility to sacrifice for those they love. A “glad assumption of sacrificial responsibility” isn’t a definition of masculinity, it’s how all Christians are supposed to act towards each other. To make it a definition of masculinity is to deny it to femininity, which would be an evil and unbiblical thing to do.
Honestly... Im not with you on this Gavin. We have a MASSIVE problem with a lack of masculinity especially in the church. The songs, the programs, the overall vibe.... We need a reaction against this. We haven't had one yet so its kind of ridiculous to be concerned about any kind of overreaction
Oh this is great! The other part I’ve been thinking about this stuff (because I used to lean into the hyper-masculine camp) is when we call music and the way people sing “effeminate,” we’re making the church, the BRIDE of Christ, masculine and saying the feminine has no place in the church. Something that men need to be comfortable with is our main signifier as the church is the feminine, not the masculine! Jesus is the head, we are the bride. Our masculinity is subsumed into the femininity of the church in some amazing way that does not destroy our masculinity but makes it more beautiful! And if we condemn the feminine, like the man’s tweet does, we are excluding women from the church by making it primarily masculine when women are the ones who have, throughout history, ran to the church for peace and protection!
Also, just thought of this, we are descended from the “seed of the woman” not the seed of man. Usually you associate, I mean just naturally, seed with the man and the woman is the place the seed grows. But God says his salvation will come from the “seed of the woman.” Our salvation comes from the fruitfulness of a mother’s womb, not a man’s seed! This subverts so much of what the hyper-masculine camp is trying to do.
Not usually in agreement with you but this was a much needed warning for the people of God to examine ourselves and to remember that judgment begins with the household of God. We must operate amongst ourselves with more fear and trembling. Blessings!
The Lion and the Lamb. The Warrior Poet. The tender and steward of a garden. Any idiot can mock, pilfer, and pillage. It takes a man of God to tend a garden of ordered liberty within his sphere of influence.
Interested to hear your take on the conquest of Canaan. 2 Kings 14:12-13 helps my own processing of some of the more difficult aspects, that being the killing of those too young or powerless to be rightly held responsible for the surrounding culture. The implication of that 2 Kings passage is that God is not oblivious to the existence of such people, and their early death may be a mercy and deliverance from a worse fate, followed by entrance into a favorable eternity.
If Jesus is the biblical model for masculinity, who is the feminine model? If the answer is Jesus, I question if there is a difference between masculinity and feminity
I think Jesus is the perfect model of humanity, so of course both men and women can learn from him how to become more like God intended them to be. Since he was a man, men also have a more specific model in him relating to masculinity. Like the other commenters, I think that Mary his mother is a wonderful model of femininity, but we know much less about her and her life and interactions with others than we know about Jesus, so I think a better approach is to learn from all the women the Bible talks about in a positive light. So I wouldn't make any one woman mentioned in the Bible a sort of supreme example, like Jesus is, but rather do my best to learn from all. Here are some that inspire me: Martha and Mary of Bethany; the other women who followed Jesus and the Twelve and offered their support; Priscilla; Lydia. And from the Old Testament: Ruth and Abigail. I would like to be as full of faith in Jesus as the Syro-Phoenician woman, as brave as Jehosheba who saved king Joash, as dutiful in educating my child in God's way as Lois and Eunice.
For those questioning pastor Armen Thomassian’s views on masculinity, you should listen to his sermon on the Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary RUclips channel where he preached in chapel a few weeks ago on psalm 5 to myself and other men training for ministry. If you disagree with his tweets, I don’t think you’ll disagree with his preaching. He does not represent a form of “hyper-masculinity”that someone like Andrew Tate would promote. I know this wasn’t a personal attack video on pastor Thomassian, but placing his tweets alongside the following arguments makes it appear that he is lumped in with the rest of the worldly nonsense going on today. 1) Certain “red-pill movements” are promoting carnal views of masculinity devoid of biblical reasoning and are harmful for men and women. 2) the church is facing a severe challenge of effeminacy more than it is facing “hyper masculinity” whatever that might be, which many are blind to today, which is also devoid of biblical reasoning and is harmful for men and women. 3) classical reformed theology provides a wonderful framework of what it looks like for men and women to think and live biblically and leads to human flourishing. Reformed Christians should not have a big problem with any of those three things.
I appreciate Gavin not attacking Armen. We used to attend the church he now pastors. He is a genuine man and I know people personally who have been brought closer to Christ through his ministry. Regardless, I don't think it helps the Kingdom to attack SGM.
I was talking with my brother and cousin about Andrew Tate again this weekend, so this is a nice and timely video. It's not quite a fit over what we were talking about, but it's something. I appreciate the focus on Christ as THE image of masculinity. There's so much confusion and frustration for young men looking to find role models (and I think role models are a universal aspect of masculinity), that having Jesus as a reliable pointer of what it should look like could help, if only we remember to point to him and not merely critique all the errors around us. I also think one of the big tricks is pulling ourselves out of an oversimplified thinking- it's either one extreme, the other, or something in the middle. It's none of those! When the choices are" live for yourself" or "be kind and do no harm", we are seeing things only at the human level, as if that is enough to summarize reality. This is the framework of our modern Western culture, and I don't know a way around it without consciously withdrawing from it, a la leaving your father and mother to follow Jesus. If we forget that our king lives, then how can we remain citizens of his kingdom? I hope that makes some sense.
The cultural thing is such a good point. The people where I live hold strength to be a high value, for both men and women. It's the women who do the lifting and hauling, for instance. And the men generally stand around with their spears or bows to protect them while they haul water or food or wood or whatever. After interaction with westerners, the roles have changed a bit, with the women standing around with the children while the men carry and haul a little more. But you still have women doing the majority of the day-to-day hauling.
I completely agree with you gavin Great video But i would be curious about what true biblical masculinity looks like You should make a video that is a positive case for biblical masculinity
@@jackcrow1204 Almost too many to list on RUclips! Samson was a judge of ancient Israel who was blessed with super strength to defend the people of God. His downfall was lust, but even after his hair was shorn, he was able to pray to God and his strength was renewed and he destroyed the temple of Dagon in Gaza. Gideon was able to discern which men were worthy of following him, and led 300 men into battle and they were able to crush the Midianites. Moses grew up as Egyptian royalty, but left a life of luxury, and was chosen by God to speak truth to the Pharaoh and led the Israelites out of Egypt. Joshua led the people of Israel into the Promised Land where they fought the Canaanites, who were performing abominable practices. David trusted God, was able to defeat the Giant, was on the run from Saul, and eventually became King. And he wrote the Psalms. Truly the Battle King composing. And he is named a man after God's own heart. Josiah led a series of reforms to purify they land, including the destruction of idols of evil Gods, such as Ba'al and Asherah, and reinstituted the Passover, among other things. Solomon asked God for wisdom, and the book of Proverbs is still full of sage advice for all believers. Paul was saved by the power of Jesus Christ, and even though he had a thorn in his flesh and suffered persecution for his faith, spread the Gospel, edified the early church and wrote many letters which became part of the New Testament. Were all these men perfect? No, but they all trusted God and followed Him. Biblical masculinity is about faith, strength, the ability to speak truth and live it out. To fight against an ungodly culture and pursue righteousness. Do not be afraid of battle with the culture. Embrace the Prince of Peace, the King of Righteousness who will come in Power and Judgment, and spread the love of God.
Great video, as always, Gavin. I love Truth Unites. I would just like to say that the pastor who put out this tweet is one of my absolute favorite pastors. His sermons are available, and they are rock solid. I am curious why he would say this. I am not claiming to agree or disagree with him, but I believe he likely has a well thought out reason for what he is trying to convey.
I think this discussion is remiss without mentioning the modern forces that frustrate young men's sense of their masculinity: porn, video game fantasy. Also substituting fathers with Google searches.
I like Matthew 9:35&36 as an example. Jesus went into cities and synagogues teaching with boldness. Why? Because He had compassion on them; seeing them as sheep without a shepherd.
It's telling that this pastor (the one tweeting about the song, not Gavin) doesn't actually provide any argument or biblical basis for his criticism. All he can point to is the exceedingly vague notion of the style of the music having an "effeminate vibe".
I personally don’t care for this popular worship song, musically speaking. However, not because it is “effeminate.” I too have been expecting the inevitable pushback our societal drift into toxic feminism has invited, even begged for. I dread the fallout from hyper-masculinity even more than hyper-feminism, although I believe the latter has led to the former.
Yes, so silly. He doesn’t seem very secure in his own masculinity if worship song sung by hundreds of men in unison expressing thanks to our Savior can trigger him like that.
Gendered tones, patterns, and melodies are not controversial topics among classical musicians Pastor Armen pointed out something that used to be obvious
These men would hate to be friends with someone like Saint Augustine or I’d argue even Jesus. Augustine described his male friendships with such unbridled affection. And Jesus was a meek passionate leader who loved his disciples in a way these men would call “effeminate”
Gavin I really like your videos but I think you missed the target on this one. The problem with the examples of the warrior-poet archetype in David and Churchil, and some other people mention Aragorn and the like, is that mentioning behaviors like writing poetry and painting, as things that don't detract from masculine characters, doesn't elucidate what is masculine in the first place. It's not that this or that behavior makes someone masculine or unmasculine, they're are just evidence of masculinity or lack of it. So what we know by analyzing those characters is that masculinity is permissible, not prescritive. They are masculine despite those behaviors, not because of them. Try taking one of them and removing the Warrior, strength, leadership part. Suddenly doing poetry and cooking is not so masculine. So instead of talking of what masculinity is in essence, people hyperfocus on behavior that may be evidence of that essence. Both sides are wrong in doing that, both the side saying you need to do that do be masculine, and the side saying you don't need any specific behavior to be masculine. Like I said, certain behaviors are evidence of masculinity and there would be no signs of it in a character or person that doesn't exhibit them. Also looking at it from a societal standards basis, instead of a universal objective essence of the masculine is even worse. Because instead of describing what is masculine and judging each society by that standard (masculinity is...), you just reduce masculinity to what society says a man should be (masculinity should...). Then how can you begin to criticize young men for being lost when by that optic they are already being the masculine ideal they were thaught (passive, apathetic, submissive, non threatening). This compounds with the issue in my first paragraph. Cooking and poetry isn't masculine. A masculine warrior cooking and writing poetry is *still* masculine. In the modern world and especially in Christianity, the warrior part (the essence of what makes a warrior, assertiveness, prowess, leadership, etc) is utterly suppressed in men. They understand they won't be masculine by writing poetry and cooking, and not being allowed to be truly masculine they get discouraged, dropped out of society, or worse. The church has no answer for this, because like this video shows anything even mentioning the issue is labeled as insecure prescriptive hyper masculinity, when that is not always the case. This is a huge issue when churches are aging and when young people *do* go to church, they go to the hyper liberal ones. Church culture is definitely more geared towards and thus more attractive to women to a point where it's an edemic issue that young women are looking for worldly men for marriages. Easier to convert a man than find a man among christians it seems.
Listen to a European football chant, or great sea shanty sung by men, and then listen to this. Here is the difference. 1, the song is set at a range that has most people at the top of their range and you can tell, comparatively they sound like boys not men until the second part where they try to go lower. (As a man I struggle in most worship songs where I can go high and strain and sounds boyish, or I can go low and keep bottoming out my range because it too low, or I can flip around sounding like I can't make up my mind.) 2, you can see the reluctance to sing and I've seen that in specifically men, and most men within the church, and yet they would happily join in a chant or shanty because those songs are inherently masculine and engaging to men in a way that this music isn't. There are plenty of shanties that sing of great emotions and love too, but there are few modern worship songs that sing of God's power and wrath and justice in a masculine way. 3. Even the instruments here are flowery and gentle piano and not engaging the way masculine music doesn't even need instrumentation to be. I had been thinking about this topic awhile, just see the engagement that men would have with a worship song built like Northwest Passage by Stan Rogers, or the Wellerman. Not to mention that songs in men's ranges aren't hard for women to follow in their natural pitches like it is vice versa. God designed men to lead and women to follow and you can see it at even in music and how we're built in the image of God.
If singing about Gods love is feminine, than the Gospel of Jesus Christ is feminine at its core. The apostle John whom focused on love and is famous for speaking so much on love, and is called the disciple whom Jesus loved (and described himself on Jesus shoulder) is not only feminine but gay. This is the logical conclusion to the argument. But Christs love isn’t exclusive to women, and it’s not gay. Christs love is for all and men should understand love and expressing love
Thanks for validating the concerns of young men. It's so easy to kick them while they're down. Especially, when an over-reaction (or a precieved one) occurs. Without knowing any of the players involved, I do wonder if the problem isn't hyper-masculinity but rather masculine LARPing. It's very easy to tweet about a song being effeminate. It's hard to have a thourough worldview/theology that critiques things that are too "effeminate." And it would be even harder to live by it. Alot of "Tradicals" are addicted to their smartphones.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS MESSAGE! As a talkative, cuteness loving, emotional, group-oriented, very emotionally close and open with my friends, Christian man who is a complementarian, this message is so utterly refreshing to hear! I've seen first hand the horribly toxic spiritual result that hypermasculinity can have on a Christian young man. I pray that he's grown past it now but a few years back I met a young man online who claimed to be Christian, and he INSISTED that I was a groomed homosexual entirely because I have an anime profile picture, ranted about how women should not be allowed to use the internet, bragged about how he never cried or showed extreme emotion, talked about how God leaves us "on our own" without help in this life as some kind of supposedly masculine independence, and also had actually racist views that I won't get into as an overreaction to social liberalism. Generally he was just incredibly abusive and draining to try to interact with and debate with cause he would engage in what he saw as "masculine ribbing" (something that I never enjoy) regarding my "effeminate" personality and my race (I'm Italian genetically and he wouldn't stop making super uncomfortable comments regarding it). And when I called him out on it he would dismissively claim that I was acting "like a woman" for being emotionally upset at his comments. Ultimately even though I wanted to try and minister to him we blocked each other and that was that. So yeah I really do pray he's grown out of that now but at that time at least he was legitimately not Christian as he added so much to the Biblical role of man and basically followed his own invented religion at that point while acting in a horrid way, all cause of buying into weird hypermasculinity as supposedly what God requires.
@@melodysledgister2468 I apologize if I was not clear enough. But he was unfortunately claiming to be a Christian. Indeed even so all we can do is pray for him and I do pray. God bless you as well.
This shows how important it is for men and women to make plans to read all the Bible and keep doing over and over. The more you do the more one can recall from All over the Bible when it speaks about a subject.
“The devil always sends errors into the world in pairs--pairs of opposites. And he always encourages us to spend a lot of time thinking which is the worse. You see why, of course? He relies on your extra dislike of the one error to draw you gradually into the opposite one.” -Lewis
I pretty much agree with the points made in this video, but doesn't the term hyper-masculinity imply that a person can be too masculine? Maybe I am taking the term too literally. I don't think a person can be excessively masculine which is almost like saying that a person can be excessively loving. Ppeople labeled as excessively masculine are probably either genuinely masculine and virtuous or they have a perverse version of masculinity that is actually less masculine since it opposes true masculinity[expressed by David except for his sins and by Jesus and by pretty much every faithful man in the Bible]. The golden mean view of masculinity that seems common in America seems to see masculinity as something that needs to be held in check rather than pursued and appreciated. Instead of seeing bad behavior, irreverence, and emotional numbness as too masculine, I see it as a rejection of manliness just as much as effeminacy is. Maybe I could be construed as believing in some form of the golden mean, but I think it is an oversimplification and that we should not be shooting for some idea of masculinity that is delicate balance between two extremes, I think it is an extreme. Many people seem to picture the spectrum as a line with anti-masculinity on one extreme endpoint and hyper-"masculinity"/toxic-"masculinity"/machismo[in the pejorative sense] on the other endpoint. I suspect that the concept of spectrum is either an inaccurate and maybe even counterproductive analogy for reality or that we are at least wrongly conflating different spectrums with this issue, but I would see ideal masculinity as more like the vertex on the extreme end of two [or more] lines with one line ending in the most extreme effeminacy and the other line ending in a sort of equally false anti-masculinity that is not effeminate but equally anti-masculine by rejecting love, self-discipline, and companionship. Sort of animalistic[not in a good way] or even demon-like. Calling the other other form of anti masculinity true masculinity is as inaccurate as calling effeminacy feminine. No man on earth other than God has been perfectly masculine, most of us have the vice of manliness either in the form of effeminacy or other manliness like unlove. Some of us may be utterly free from all effeminacy[which is good], but fall short of manliness in other ways. Jesus is His incarnation came very close to being the extreme fulfillment of manliness during the first 30 years of His incarnation, He was/is perfectly pure and loving and possibly was only lacking in the sort manliness that you need more than 30 years to mature into[but He has certainly attained that some time between His resurrection and now] since I suppose we would all be like boys compared to the first men who lived hundreds of years. And if the human nature of Yahweh was not extreme enough, the divine nature takes the good things about manliness[endurance, fighting spirit, etc] to extremes that go far beyond our potential and comprehension... I don't think He is in some balancing act between two vices and I don't think it is proper to think of manliness as a balancing act. Love is not a balancing act, love does not compromise with unlove[rebellion] nor does love embrace any degree of effeminacy[rebellion] in a man. I don't regard myself as extremely manly but it was a paradigm shift for me to set my target endpoint/extreme at christlikeness. I at least know enough about manliness to know that a truly manly man will be accused by the effeminate of being too manly or insecure or so on. Truly manly men will also inevitably be seen as weak by those who see men as apes and strive to be worldly alpha-males[desiring to be like clueless animals]. If accused of such things by such people, I feel like I am doing something right and I simply recognize that they are too clueless about masculinity to have a worthwhile opinion on it. What truly humbles me is comparing myself to Jesus and the apostles and prophets, I am boyish[unmanly] and corrupt[unmanly] and emotionally-dead[unmanly] compared to them but I look forward to becoming like them. I don't think effeminacy is a vice I struggle with at all, but I am still far from christlike and therefor not as manly as I ought to be. But rather than wanting to restrict the things about me that effeminate types regard as too masculine[strengths and virtues] and what those with false-machismo call weak[love and emotion], I want to increase in those things and that is basically why it seems counterproductive to speak as as if there is a vice of being too masculine.
Not to be super picky, but I wish Noadiah (see Nehemiah 6:14) had not been mentioned in the list of prophetesses along with godly women like Deborah and Huldah
this is not an issue at all amongst mature brethren in the faith. it's childish and takes up space that would otherwise be taken up by solid engagement that builds and nurtures the faith of the church.
I will definitely say the music in most churches is very unsettling and worldy.....and effeminate..... and an attempt at emotional manipulation thru pagan tactics of repetition to make the listener FEEL like they are having a spiritual experience but it's actually the flesh in a euphoric trance like state. Similar to Buddhists and the sects of Eastern pagan religions.
Dear Pastor Gavin, thank you for posting this. I would like to hear thoughts on who the biblical model of femininity is/are :) I mean, there are loads of examples, from Sarah to the proverbs 31 woman to Mary… but if there was one woman to look towards as a feminine example (as there is in Jesus for masculinity), who would you point to? Just curious.
What happened to singing the battle hymn of the republic, or onward Christian soldiers, or Crown him with many crowns. Our Father in heaven isn’t just a loving father, he’s a Righteous and powerful God. His son is the King of Kings, and the LORD of lords, the fierce lion of Judah, the one who comes to judge the living and the dead. The Bible is full of Christian masculinity, if only we will not ignore it. Also God of Grace and God of Glory seems distinctly masculine to me.
I think I’m going to write a full response to this, but I can’t help but think this is a too late, too little, focusing on the splinter instead of the log rebuttal. Anyone watching this, notice the term “hyper masculinity” is just a soft coded feminist term for toxic masculinity. There have been many issues with feminism entering the modern church and demanding that men adopt a “happy wife, happy life” mentality idolizing or even worshipping the feminine experience as a sacred cow. There are so many issues right now, I find it weird that here’s a whole break down on toxic masculinity as it pertains to a negligible percentage of church goers, male Christian’s, and secular society. It just seems frankly a little blind. Was the tweet appropriate? Well it wasn’t inappropriate. There are many Christian songs today that have a really strong feminine undertone that almost treats Jesus as a boyfriend. To take that observation and then warn against toxic masculinity is so odd… instead of maybe … doing a fair critique and then critiquing feminism in the church. I suspect until the church is really ready to be outspoken about women and how we as men have succumbed to the “husband is dumb, wives know best” feminist narrative … toxic masculinity will only rise. Because the people that should bring balance (Christian men) are only telling men not to say mean things or that really “the Bible is totally progressive and feminist” and that we should be careful not to upset women.
I'd go as far as saying the notion of hypermasculinity/toxic masculinity are false. It doesn't make sense to me that being too strong, or too rational, or too brave for example can be negative. Rather, I think negative male behaviors are a deficit of certain traits. So for example, a man with too much strength and bravery but no rationality can be barbaric. This explains why as men when we see another man doing something morally abhorrent, we'd say he's not a "real man." Not that he's too much of one
If you’re just a hammer, you have to find nails to hit, or you find yourself with no purpose. That’s so often a problem in today’s discourses. It’s significant to mention here that “fundamentalism” is a word that unfortunately implies that false, un-Christlike interpretations of scripture are “fundamental” views on its meaning, when in fact they represent human insecurity projected onto a passage. I am a relatively conservative Christian, but that’s a statement I cannot make in some contexts, not because it’s true, but because I want those people to take me seriously, and they have a completely different understanding of what “Conservative Christian” means, one that would NOT accurately describe me and my beliefs. In the interest of a full and complete agreement on terms, I just don’t mention the ones that, rightly or wrongly, carry so much cultural baggage, unless I absolutely must. And it’s sadly the fault of “fundamentalists” that fundamentalism is synonymous with “bad doctrine” among Christians, and seen as *validation* of the Bible BEING “bad doctrine” by declared enemies of the faith.
Hypermasculinity and King David: David represented the good, the bad, and the morally ugly. His initial "relationship" as King with a subject, Bathsheba, was far from righteous. And then it ended in murder to cover over his abuse of power. BTW: Men and women can both do this - it just looks different. Yet, David owned it when confronted and lived with the consequences. And, we can't forget that the brave soldier David had too much blood on his hands to have the honor of building the Temple - according to God. Valor on the battlefield involving tremendous bloodshed is not the best image for courage in the ideal.
Great job with this. I’m so with you in being deeply concerned about hyper-masculinity (aka unbiblical views on gender).
thanks! you do a great job explicating the Scripture on this
Love both of your guys’ channels! I appreciate both of your careful considerations of God’s word as well as your humble approach to tackling topics such as these. God bless.
I love both your channels too.
Praise God for the good teachers and preachers! I appreciate you both so much, Mike and Gavin. May God bless and protect you ❤
I am in agreement wity you and @Mike winger. We need to deal with this and its opposite extreme.
“We are not called merely, to resist error. We are called to incarnate truth”.
Well said brother! Thank you!
I, for one, support truth rather than resist it.
@@Parks179-hRead it again. No one is called to resist truth. Doesn't even make sense.
@@philagon ahhh!! Thank you for pointing out my error! Now that is funny! lol
Young man who listens to you here. I think this hyperaggressive masculinity has also been seen in online debates and I think you have been a good example in showing that one can be gentle as a man, even in firm disagreement
thanks! so glad to hear that
Good word
I love your point about stereotypes. A lot of people in my generation will reminisce about "waiting for Dad to come home from work and help them with math homework." In my family, it was completely the opposite. My mom was the math expert, and I would wait for my dad to come home and help me with my English essays. However, in terms of Biblical marriage, they were an amazing model for me. My mom would always let my dad take the lead, but on the other hand, my dad always considered her feelings and would never let us disrespect our mom's authority. I wish more people would have the opportunity to grow up with parents like that.
Sounds like you had amazing parents!
My mom was a math nerd too, but she was also the English nerd. My dad was into history and theology. One way my dad displayed great masculinity, however is the way he disciplined us. My dad HATED disciplining us. Most of the time when we were bad, my mom would discipline us. But we knew we messed up big time when it was dad's turn. Not only did it hurt more because he was stronger, but we could see genuine pain in his eyes having to do it. He even drew a crying face on his paddle.
@@5BBassist4Christ dang, your dad was adding insult to injury with that one lol
So thankful for this video. A few months ago, at our mens group, I taught that we're harming our young boys and men when we paint a picture that masculinity is a man with a beard, that hunts, watches football, and eats excessive amounts of steak. Doing this causes boys that don't like football etc. to question why they are not as masculine as they should be, which in the extreme cases can lead to vulnerability and even questioning their gender. Instead of stereotyping what a man is, we need to ground masculinity in biblical truth. Thank you Gavin for another great video and resource. Maybe this speaks to me so much simply because I can't grow a beard and prefer baking over football.
thanks Abel! Haha, at least you can make up for it by consuming huge portions of steak.
Haha! @@TruthUnites
Most of my family are huge football fans (even half of the girls). When I was a kid I enjoyed watching games with the family, learning the rules, and idolizing certain players. By my teen years, however, I was already phasing out of it. I was passionate about writing, poetry, music, theology, philosophy, language, and other such things. Honestly though, I never felt "effeminate" for pursuing poetry and language. I realized that this was another side of masculinity that is less praised but just as important.
One of my favorite poems is a line from Mark Hall's song City On a Hill:
"You see the poets thought the dancers were shallow,
And the soldiers thought the poets were weak.
And the elders saw the young ones as foolish,
And the rich man never heard the poor man speak.
But it was the rhythm of the dancers that gave the poets life;
It was the spirit of the poets that gave the soldiers strength to fight.
It is the fire of the young ones that is the wisdom of the old;
It is the story of the poor man that's needing to be told."
I've struggled with this frustrating narrative for most of my 50 years, a narrow definition of what a man should and shouldn't like, or that the spectrum of masculinity somehow correlates to having certain tastes, preferences, and personalities. It's quite tiresome when I know that my masculinity is not tied to any of these things. But the social pressure is there.
I’m glad to see others picking up on the quote::
“We are not called merely to be resistant to error. We are called to incarnate truth with beauty and love.”
I don't think you can find a verse to justify that is what the Churches mission is, or for individual Christians should have as our goal in living the Christian life. I doubt the prophet Ezekiel, Jeremiah, or John The Baptist thought in these terms. It's best for Christians to follow the example of the Apostle Paul...who even one time called a man a Son of the Devil and cursed him with blindness. Or when the Lord Jesus Christ drove out the greedy money lenders with a whip of cords he fashioned not to just whip around. Yes, I think that's loving and a beautiful thing too...but most or at least the average 21st Century evangelical churchmen do not understand God is the One who Sovereignly saves, and is not dependant on His on incarnating truth as to appear beautiful to other people. The wicked consider what we consider beautiful to be an abomination please remember by nature and by their own corruptions, hard heartedness and and willful blindness as a rule (I guarantee that statement would offend many even not newcomers to the channel.. The Proverbs and Psalms cannot be tolerated expositionally from a large number of pulpits because they might be perceived as being too harsh and un-loving ( I can prove it). But things aren't going well in the western modern evangelical Church to date, and people have very bad and also un-biblical definitions to begin with, and therein lay many little foxes that ruin the vineyards. Honestly, I have not watched the video yet (but will), because I am curious to what the controversy is and to see what Gavin says. I just know we are in the days of John Piper at the Shepherds Conference saying our love for God needs to be erotic (?), and there are many enemies against God and his people who rage and imagine vain things (Psalm 2). Being kind and faithful is our calling to be sure with many other duties to fulfill conduct wise (with God's glory in mind should always be foremost to us). There is a season and time to act like men as Paul says, and to answer fools according to their folly (or not). Grace to the humble, and Law to the proud when dealing in street evangelism is a good rule that usually works well in all cases, and we see that attitude modeled in Scripture everywhere (the Daniel and Belshazzar account come to mind). When I hear the term beautiful (and my vocabulary is above 12th grade level I assure), I think of a flower, or sunset or something peaceful and still. Maybe a pretty woman (the Bible uses the word comely to describe such, as well as fat to describe Eli, or tender-eyed when speaking of Leah which means she wasn't so much as enjoyable to look at, as opposed to well favored Rachael...God's Words, not mine), or the whole Creation could be called beautiful. I do not see the word used in the NT but 4 times, and it always relates to the Lord directly or indirectly in the whole Bible...often it speaks of a place (like the gate at Jerusalem), or did I miss a new translation amongst the myriads (Romans 10 would be the closest example it seems to defend the concept put forth by the video and the comments I am reacting to solely at this point...but again, that OT re-quoatation is from the perspective of the Righteous One and the saved ones who are righteous by his total and absolute obedience to the will of the Father...not those who never intend to bow the knee to King Jesus). When speaking of incarnating truth.... isn't it wise to reserve that term only for the Incarnate Word who was the Truth Incarnate alone? Yes, we may be little Christ's (the term for Christians originally as it is often taught...a slur of derison), but without Him we can do nothing, nor should we try (it always ends badly in my case), and this teaching could needlessly lead to some bad outcomes because of false teachers and faulty understandings?. We really do need God's grace and power desperately, not only in our lives, but many of us are desperate to see Him do his work everywhere at all times in glorifying Himself (whether in Judgements or in the Father's House getting filled up, and I do want the latter much more at this stage of my everlasting life). Ok, now I will watch the video. And I think that Gavin has done a great job, in debating many issues others are not, or refuse to. I speak especially of dealings with EO beliefs. His work in that area has been a blessing to me personally in working through some of those things. Also, I have copied some of Gavin's ways (in having a sweeter way of speaking to others in general, not only when talking about God with others (as much as can be gathered from videos and not knowing him personally). I am thankful to God for his work.
I think these might support the idea behind the quote.
Romans 10:15
Ephesians 4:15
Non-Christian here. Wondering why this quote resonates with you? The statement did stand out to me, but honestly i chuckled and wrote it odd as simple hyperbole of the type that you usually hear from much less educated preachers than gavin
@@davidvernon3119 Christ is truth in the flesh - truth incarnate. As a Christian, which literally means “little Christ”, it is my calling/duty/delight to put my whole, real person into speaking and living the truth of the good news that God is and that the pinnacle of history is Jesus - his person and work. The Bible is a living book. Christianity is not a dead faith. It’s Savior isn’t dead, it’s Words are not dead, and its followers should be real-life, flesh and bone, incarnate, walking testimonials to such a humbling and wonderful truth.
@@bekscha579 yeah. Ok. I’m hearing that Jesusing is a big hobby of yours. What’s the point?
Emotional expression is one of those things our cultural stereotyping really gets wrong. It’s parroted by both sexes who are overreactive complementarians that emotional intelligence is somehow an inherent property of being a woman and that men need to “learn” emotions from women-when emotional intelligence is an individual property, and I’ve met many men who were extremely in touch with their emotions (and still what we might call stoic!) whereas I’ve met many women, who, while they expressed their emotions more visibly, were a lot more clueless about recognizing and handling emotions in others.
We miss you...❤
Absolutely. Another issue is how society claims men should express emotions but not anger, which for biological reasons it's the go to emotion men feel most of the time. So you can express emotions, but only the emotions women usually express eg sadness and crying. If you express yourself in a natural way you're a toxic man
I'm one of those women who does not know what to do with people's emotions. I
am getting more expressive of my own as I age, but in general I don't process them well and do not relate with people through emotion. It can be viewed as strength as I appear to not fall apart during a crisis (that can be useful) but the weakness is lack of depth in relationships because I hold people at a distance. For the first 30 years or so of my life I didn't even know I was doing it.
18:58 this reminds me so much of my mom’s advice to me over the years to not be afraid to be a Christian but, “don’t be a weirdo” 😂
I find it interesting that the greatest writers, composers, and painters of some of the most georgous and emotional works of art through history have been men. That is partly because, culturally, women were not supposed to be artists, but I believe it also goes to show that strong, passionate men have the ability to feel sincere and intense affection and emotion. As an emotionally expressive man, I will testify that my poetry, music, and writing have never been contrary to any semblance of masculine strength, but have only served to couple my strength, intellect, and emotion all to the sake of godly loyalty. I am not perfect by any means, but I will testify that loyalty - even affectionate loyalty - is in desperate want among men today; my heart goes out to any man who is caught in the grips of lies teying to dimish or stunt masculinity. That is why I am very grateful to you, Dr. Ortlund, for addressing this topic.
"Culturally, women were not supposd to b artists"? Are you sure it was "cultural" issue? That twisted perspective views of the history is what got us into trouble in the first pace. Even now, 99% of well-known and celebrated artists are still men. Is that a "cultural" issue?
@@thomasc9036 Perhaps. That is a larger discussion, so I offered a short (and, admitedly, perhaps sloppy) summary it in my coment. Your conclusion on the topic shouldn't have any effect on my larger point about masculinity, but I appreciate your being so thoughtful as to point that out.
@@jtbasener8740 What do you think is causing the hypermasculinity? We tend to blame previous Christian Europeans and descendants for world's problem like slavery, colonialism, etc. The reality is that the colonialism was the best thing to happen to the world. Not only did Christianized Europe/Whites outlaw slavery, prostitution, and many other evils in the world, they brought technologies and many medical innovations to these underdeveloped world.
What is happening now? These children who were brought up with low self-esteem are rebelling. They are turning to anyone to anything who sounds remotely resemble strong masculinity. We pushed these young men too far and now they are pushing back...angrily.
@@thomasc9036why do you believe most artists are men now? That’s not in agreement with statistics I’ve seen. Maybe more men make it to the very top because their wife is the one taking care of the kids on the evening and weekends? Statistically women do most of the childcare and house are even when they work full time - say as an artist.
But yeah, historically, women had very little education, had about a dozen kids and before modern conveniences, worked extremely long hours. Of course, most poor men also worked long hours. A few privileged, wealthy men were taken in by the masters to train.
Women have never been repressed to not be artists. Where do you get that from? Is not true.
Thank you very much for this much needed message.
Also... you are an excellent example of what Christian love and charity looks like correcting others with gentleness (which none of us do perfectly I think).
That was not NEARLY as “effeminate” as John Piper saying our relationship with Jesus is “erotic to the core” 😬 There’s one I wouldn’t have any problem with people calling out, and being like “Wow, buddy… no, no… no… no, no, no… that ain’t right…”
>John Piper saying our relationship with Jesus is “erotic to the core”
wtf
@@plsdk8321 Oh yeah.. that was my reaction too 😳
@@brando3342pssst. Guess what, JP is kinda right 😂 Sex is a shadow of the union between Christ and the church.
@@toonnaobi-okoye2949 Pssst… OOF, big fail. An analogy is not meant to be a one to one perfect image of what it is analogizing. Just because the institution of marriage includes sexual intercourse, doesn’t mean that specific part of what marriage means is meant to be applied to the analogy between Christ, and his church. That’s just wrong, and disgusting.
@@brando3342well God designed sex to strengthen the union between a man and woman in marriage as well as for them to find more pleasure in the other. That is a type that does not even reach the fullness of the relationship between the church and Christ, I'm saying the church and Christ marriage is even better with even more pleasure, in the most pure way.
Gavin is THE MOST level headed teacher out there!. Everything is ALWAYS explained very well and he knows some will agree and some will disagree with him. Some of us get some things right but no one gets EVERYTHING right, except Jesus right?. ❤❤
So I am a woman and an egalitarian so I recognize this video is not really “for me” and I want to respect that and not derail the conversation too much. At the same time, I really appreciate your approach and agreed with most of your points, plus you’ve given me some good food for thought on some topics that I’ll be chewing on for a while I think. So I wanted to say thank you for engaging in these conversations because they are so important and you tackle them with a lot of needed grace and wisdom.
There is an aspect of these types of conversations about “biblical masculinity” and “biblical femininity” that I often find really frustrating. And that is that these terms seem to always be either badly defined (like the “hypermasculine” personality type you critique in this video) or completely undefined. Even in this video, you say what “biblical masculinity” is NOT but never really say what you think it is or what “biblical femininity” would be. It seems implied that it has something to do with personality traits and that there is some biblical support for men and women having broad categorical differences in these traits.
I guess my question/frustration is, why? Why do any values or virtues have to be gendered in the first place? I just don’t see that in the Bible at all. I see where gendered social/family roles MIGHT be indicated (I don’t think the case for that is particularly strong but I admit there is a case to be made nonetheless), but values? Personality traits? Character virtues? That’s just not in there at all that I can see.
Really? You don't see in the bible examples of "men, do this" and "women, do this"? Really? What bible are you using? A gender neutral bible?
@@JesusProtects My goodness, the sneering sarcasm is really not necessary here, my friend! We are all on the same side here. Just trying to follow Jesus and love others as best we know how.
In answer to your question, my preferred Bible translation is the NASB, so no, not a gender neutral Bible. I am aware of the passages you are referring to. I do understand that if one is going to interpret and apply them in a rigid literal way, then it is reasonable to determine some gender ROLES from those passages. I agree that is one reasonable interpretation, though not the only one.
However, that is beside the point of the comment I made. I am not challenging gender ROLES here, but rather gendered VALUES/VIRTUES. Even the way you paraphrased these passages illustrates the difference between the two concepts: “Men DO this, women DO that.” Those are actions/roles that are given to each gender. The modern discussion of “biblical masculinity” and “biblical femininity” goes far, far beyond those basic, arguable-but-defensible, points and gets into extrabiblical territory by assigning a certain set of characteristics/personality traits/values/virtues to men and another set to women.
Hope that clears up what I was trying to communicate and thanks for taking the time to read through my explanation!
Really appreciate this, Dr. Ortlund. I'm currently teaching a class that attempts to take a more wholistic approach to anthropology and we've explored this issue of hyper masculinity (and distorted femininity). Thanks for offering a careful response.
That hideous strength is my favorite novel and the quote about Solomon is so superb, it raises my hair.
This is such a great video. thank you! You’re ability to speak the truth with love is truly aspirational
Ahh, yes, nothing screams effeminate like saying, “Jesus thank you,” because as we all know, a man takes what he is owed and offers no gratitude.
What I have noticed with hyper-masculine men is a non-normal fear of being effeminate. One of the most effeminate things you can do is be hypermasculine because you are afraid that if you don’t be as masculine as possible, you are being as effeminate as possible.
I won't make any data claims or anything like that, but I have seen a good number of men raised in hyper-masculine environments claim that because they never felt masculine enough (e.g. because they felt like crying), they began experiencing same-sex attraction because they coveted men they perceived as more confidently masculine than themselves. If there is any remote truth about this, then hypermasculinity is a big problem.
I don’t think the issue is thanking Jesus. I think the issue the original poster had with this song was the style of music more than the message. I can’t say for sure, but that’s what I gleaned.
I think the hyperfocus on masculinity and femininity and creating all the stereotypes is a large factor in many people identifying as transgender. I was someone whose personality didn't match the cultural expectations of femininity, and I wanted to be a boy. Probably young boys want to be girls for similar reasons. Rarely a person feels physically uncomfortable with their body and much more often their disphoria results from cultural expectations placed on them for their gender.
There is no such thing as "hyper masculinity". A man either behaves in a proper (masculine) way or he does not. What people often refer to as "hyper masculinity" is simply immature, childish, prideful, and selfish behavior. That said, a lot of modern worship music is very shallow. That doesn't make it "effeminate", but it does make it "poor". I also think part of the problem is that a lot of "modern" worship music is written to engage your emotions, which is not correct. We SHOULD experience emotion in worship, but that emotion should come from the MESSAGE IN the songs we are singing, not the chord progression or instrumental bridge between verses.
We should worship in spirit AND in truth. If you have only spirit, it is not faithful worship.
In wholehearted agreement with your comments!
I concur! This is in fact a prevalent issue in IFB cirlces notwithstanding inherent Spititual Abuse. I remember sitting through a sermon at our former IFB church during which John 8:36 was quoted and I was moved in my Spirit bringing me to tears not because of the sermon itself but because of the Word of God and when I spoke to the pastor after while being teary eyed, he was completely indifferent and acknowledged it superficially and just walked away.
Besides, wife and I left the church due to Spiritual Abuse and now we're focussed on gathering people in our house. And God has done great things in my life and the Holy Ghost has taught me so many things that I wouldn't have learned sitting in a pew bench or a chair and just listening to a monologue every week.
In this case, it is was more of grooming by the pastor through topical sermons and his family to have his members conform to their stabdards of morality and righteousness that they themsleves couldn't meet on careful examination. And dare anybody question them at the risk of character defamation and the word backslidden will be weaponized in this case leading you to being excommunicated while the rest are instructed to not even talk to us or reach out to us or make any attempts to hear our side of the story lest they be proved wrong.
I honestly think, church buildings have done more damage than good and I also believe there is a gross misunderstanding of the word, Church. It has become a corrput man-centric institution lead by megalomaniacs who are seemingly beyond reproof.
Such a powerful and biblically sound video. As an early 30’s father of four (3 boys), it’s constantly on my mind how best to raise sons to be masculine, but in a way that’s centered on Christ.
Love you, Gavin. Stay close to Christ. The social media / RUclips world can eat you alive. Glad to support you.
I'm so glad you reviewed this! It's frightening to see a comment like this, because you couldn't get more literally masculine and conservative (both theologically and politically) in terms of Shepard's Conference... There's nearly no one who would put down that particular conference or corner of Christianity for that specific reason.
Gavin, I am so happy to hear you push back. There has been a tide moving in our culture - but in the wrong direction! We need to return to Christ, our Archetype!
This was an excellent introduction to a balanced and biblical approach on masculinity!
In most Southemrican cultures, if someone attacks someone else from a place of security without giving the opportunity to respond or retaliate, that person will be pretty explicitly called 'masculinity-compromising' names... if you know what I mean. Great video brother ⭐
I must say, I am so glad you addressed this issue in a video. Thank you, Gavin! I heard this story (about Pastor Armen’s comments about the music at the Shepherd’s Conference) a week or so ago when it was making the rounds, and it honestly broke my heart. Your response was very well articulated and just all around thoughtful (as per usual with you).
Thank you for all you do! Keep up the good work!
Thank you for talking about this Gavin. You do such a good job calling out the selfishness, ugliness, and immaturity often manifesting in hyper-masculine culture. I love how you bring up the need to keep godly love supreme and the need to live out truth in a good and beautiful way. The distinction between biblical teaching vs cultural expressions is so important to discern as well. People need to recognize that virtue is what makes someone true, good, beautiful, and noble, and that masculinity and femininity will naturally express themselves in the males and females pursuing virtue itself.
As a subdeacon in Byzantine Catholic I laud Gavin Ortlund for his urgency and honesty expressed in this video. This is urgent because toxic masculinity confused what's true masculinity. Immature men have many insecurities so they over compensate this with hyper masculinity. Imagine how children would grow up if they saw their dad abuse their mom verbally, mentally, and spiritually. No wonder when they grew up they would mistreated their girlfriends or wives. They can't give what they never had. In India men wearing earrings. In some cultures men even wear makeup and wear jewelry as sign of masculinity. A man who is caring of his children and attentive to their emotional need is not effeminate. We need more masculine men who are partner in parenting. Do you know your kids teachers names? Their friends? Do you pay attention when they've emotional difficulties? St Paul commanded us to submit to one another. Wife submit to her husband and husband submit to his wife. This is not optional this is divine command. Unless we obey God's commands then there's something wrong with us. Marriage in Catholic and Orthodox is a holy sacrament it gives us grace for our holiness. Look at Mother Cabrini or most holy Theotokos who after St Joseph reposed herself alone raised Jesus as a teen mom. She taught Him how to pray and prepared His ministry by raising Him in the faith. There's nothing more masculine than when Jesus the true man submit, learn, and listen to a woman. Mature men want mature women. Immature boys want immature girls who they can control and bully. If your pastor abused you run away. If your clergy bully you expose them to public judgement. Love one another and protect those who can't protect themselves. Hyper masculinity is for vulnerable, immature, and insecure boys. True men listen to their daughters, respect their sisters, and love their wives. Toxic masculinity is from Satan not God.
I don't it helps Christians to use feminist terms like "toxic masculinity". They are coming from the premise the men should be softer and show a more feminine side, instead of letting men be men.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 both hyper masculinity and hyper femininity are toxic. Don't be deceived by Ortho Bros and Rad Trad Boys. If they want women to submit to them then they ought to obey God's commands through St Paul by also submit to their wives. Submit yourself to one another because you're one flesh not two. Mature man wants mature woman. Insecure boy wants insecure girl he can control, manipulate, and dominate. This is not from God this is from Satan. Christ never control, manipulate, or dominate His Church. He respects her and promises her whatever she binds He will bind and whatever she loses He will set lose. Christ submit Himself to the decision of His Church. Do to others as you expect others would do to you. Men who abuse their wives and children are not in position of authority because it is premised that they behave as Christ would be. When men behave as Christ would do then they deserves the authority and respect. So first they must be Christ-like. The ordering can't be reversed. Women and children must recognize and resist abusive men. When they insult Christ by not following His precepts on how to be good husbands and good fathers they have no authority and must be subjected to public judgement. I applaud Gavin Ortlund for speaking on this with urgency and honesty. His wife and children ought to be proud of him.
@@saintejeannedarc9460it’s a subset of masculinity and it’s toxic. What else should it be called?
You’re further proving the point that’s being criticized by conflating softness with social castration. The Lord values the meek, they will inherit the Earth.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 There are good forms of masculinity, and there are toxic forms of masculinity. Deal with it.
Thank you for your thoughtfulness here, Gavin. Lord Jesus, we pray for the wild insecurities of men, that they too can one day say your grace is sufficient, and accept the strength in our weakness.
Matthew 6:5-6
Thank you, Dr Ortlund! A biblical message, as always expressed both firmly and with love - your attitude is a model I aspire to.
Yes. This is great. This is truly one of the most important issues of our time.
As an Orthodox I disagree with you on most things, but I agree here.
Gentleness means gentleness. God bless Gavin ☦️
Sing Psalms in church; you never have to worry about being wrong.
A Thomistic idea of virtue works here. In the middle there is ideal man, on either side of that is sin. I think Aragorn in the Lord of the Rings is a good example of the ideal from modern culture.
Yes, the answer is to seek virtue, not an amorphous and ill-defined cultural ideaof manliness.
Thank you! Really looking forward to the upcoming videos you mentioned. I learn so much from you and your love and reverence for Jesus!
I watched the one with Stephen DeYoung. I thought he defended Sola Scriptura very well.
I will have to watch it. Thank you for telling me about it. God bless you ❤@@melodysledgister2468
Thank you. True masculinity should be beautiful. Love that!❤
Gavin your office or library looks awesome.
Precious thoughts. Thank you pastor Gavin.
This is a needed message
I have problems with mordern Christian music, but that is not effeminate.
A much needed commentary! Thank you!
Great video Gavin. your upcoming video topics sound so timely. The issue of slavery is a tough one and one I spent much time on myself. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Your ministry is a huge blessing.
Thank you Gavin!
Is that background real? Man stunning library.
I love the pushback against legalism. Way to go, Dr. Ortlund👍
The line up of next videos is 🔥.
Still trying to figure out where Gavin finds the time to do everything that he does ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Thanks for addressing this issue! Any time a person uses the term "effeminate" to deride another Christian brother, I am deeply disappointed. National pride, cultural expectations of "masculinity", and righteous anger are common areas where Christians may spiritualize and sanctify their own biases, or even sinful attitudes. Like the accretions of Catholicism, we too can unwittingly add things to the deposit of the faith. It is right for us to draw attention to unbiblical accretions emerging in our own contexts, not just focus on the historical accretions of Roman Catholicism.
What if it (effeminate ) is simply a description, and not an attempt at derision? The fact is, there are honourable and masculine men who are believers and they won't always be able to connect as well to actual effeminate worship styles, as they can to more traditional hymns, or orthodox chants which are more appealing to masculine men because of the lack of effeminacy.
The Protestant church is losing males more so than females, to Orthodoxy, because mainline Protestantism is becoming more effeminate.
Loved this!
Amazing video!!
Thanks for this video Dr. Ortlund! I’m curious what you think about another trend amongst young men on being anti-marriage. I’m seeing a lot of men my age and younger (Gen Y and Z) who despite being Christian are incredibly anti-marriage to the point where they would be fine fathering children with random women but say they wouldn’t marry them, or one friend who jokes sometimes about having a harem, or others who say they’ll get married but won’t sign the marriage license, etc. Thoughts? I know society is stacked against men in matters of divorce and custody but it still seems unbiblical to completely oppose marriage in favor of hookups or shacking up.
Thank you. This is timely and much needed. I've noticed the same uptick in hypermasculinity recently. The way that there seems to be a sort of overcompensation is kind of ridiculous at times.
This is great, I studied this extensively in school, and one of the bizarre realities that I spend a considerable amount of time attempting to understand is the link between hypermasculinity and homoeroticism. We seldom relate the two, obviously, nothing could seem more feminine than two men in an ‘intimidate’ context. However, prior to the night of the long knives, the brown shirts movement, a hypermasculine and overly militant movement popular amongst disillusioned young men- was dominated by homosexual leadership that sprang from a deep and bitter resentment against women and the feminist movement. Homosexuality was a necessary requirement to rise up the leadership ranks, and it was seen as the most manly orientation possible. Quite bizarre?
This is going to seriously piss some people off
Another catalyst to this problem has been the new interpretations of malakos in 1 Cor 6:9 as "effeminate," which then is used as a biblical basis for talking about being manly men all the time.
It's an abuse of the word, which has a variety of meanings, but never ever is getting at the issue of just being 'more of a man.'
Very good video, thank you!
Doug Wilson:
Masculinity is the the glad assumption of sacrificial responsibility
Ever met a mother? Mothers gladly take responsibility to sacrifice for those they love.
A “glad assumption of sacrificial responsibility” isn’t a definition of masculinity, it’s how all Christians are supposed to act towards each other. To make it a definition of masculinity is to deny it to femininity, which would be an evil and unbiblical thing to do.
Honestly... Im not with you on this Gavin. We have a MASSIVE problem with a lack of masculinity especially in the church. The songs, the programs, the overall vibe.... We need a reaction against this. We haven't had one yet so its kind of ridiculous to be concerned about any kind of overreaction
He is just paranoid
Did you....watch the video?
Oh this is great! The other part I’ve been thinking about this stuff (because I used to lean into the hyper-masculine camp) is when we call music and the way people sing “effeminate,” we’re making the church, the BRIDE of Christ, masculine and saying the feminine has no place in the church. Something that men need to be comfortable with is our main signifier as the church is the feminine, not the masculine! Jesus is the head, we are the bride. Our masculinity is subsumed into the femininity of the church in some amazing way that does not destroy our masculinity but makes it more beautiful! And if we condemn the feminine, like the man’s tweet does, we are excluding women from the church by making it primarily masculine when women are the ones who have, throughout history, ran to the church for peace and protection!
Also, just thought of this, we are descended from the “seed of the woman” not the seed of man. Usually you associate, I mean just naturally, seed with the man and the woman is the place the seed grows. But God says his salvation will come from the “seed of the woman.” Our salvation comes from the fruitfulness of a mother’s womb, not a man’s seed! This subverts so much of what the hyper-masculine camp is trying to do.
Not usually in agreement with you but this was a much needed warning for the people of God to examine ourselves and to remember that judgment begins with the household of God. We must operate amongst ourselves with more fear and trembling. Blessings!
The Lion and the Lamb. The Warrior Poet. The tender and steward of a garden.
Any idiot can mock, pilfer, and pillage. It takes a man of God to tend a garden of ordered liberty within his sphere of influence.
Interested to hear your take on the conquest of Canaan. 2 Kings 14:12-13 helps my own processing of some of the more difficult aspects, that being the killing of those too young or powerless to be rightly held responsible for the surrounding culture. The implication of that 2 Kings passage is that God is not oblivious to the existence of such people, and their early death may be a mercy and deliverance from a worse fate, followed by entrance into a favorable eternity.
If Jesus is the biblical model for masculinity, who is the feminine model?
If the answer is Jesus, I question if there is a difference between masculinity and feminity
mary
Mary my brother.
I am not made in the image of Mary. She's a cool lady, but I'm modelled after the Son of God!@@1517the_year
I think Jesus is the perfect model of humanity, so of course both men and women can learn from him how to become more like God intended them to be. Since he was a man, men also have a more specific model in him relating to masculinity.
Like the other commenters, I think that Mary his mother is a wonderful model of femininity, but we know much less about her and her life and interactions with others than we know about Jesus, so I think a better approach is to learn from all the women the Bible talks about in a positive light. So I wouldn't make any one woman mentioned in the Bible a sort of supreme example, like Jesus is, but rather do my best to learn from all.
Here are some that inspire me: Martha and Mary of Bethany; the other women who followed Jesus and the Twelve and offered their support; Priscilla; Lydia. And from the Old Testament: Ruth and Abigail.
I would like to be as full of faith in Jesus as the Syro-Phoenician woman, as brave as Jehosheba who saved king Joash, as dutiful in educating my child in God's way as Lois and Eunice.
For those questioning pastor Armen Thomassian’s views on masculinity, you should listen to his sermon on the Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary RUclips channel where he preached in chapel a few weeks ago on psalm 5 to myself and other men training for ministry. If you disagree with his tweets, I don’t think you’ll disagree with his preaching. He does not represent a form of “hyper-masculinity”that someone like Andrew Tate would promote. I know this wasn’t a personal attack video on pastor Thomassian, but placing his tweets alongside the following arguments makes it appear that he is lumped in with the rest of the worldly nonsense going on today.
1) Certain “red-pill movements” are promoting carnal views of masculinity devoid of biblical reasoning and are harmful for men and women.
2) the church is facing a severe challenge of effeminacy more than it is facing “hyper masculinity” whatever that might be, which many are blind to today, which is also devoid of biblical reasoning and is harmful for men and women.
3) classical reformed theology provides a wonderful framework of what it looks like for men and women to think and live biblically and leads to human flourishing.
Reformed Christians should not have a big problem with any of those three things.
I appreciate Gavin not attacking Armen. We used to attend the church he now pastors. He is a genuine man and I know people personally who have been brought closer to Christ through his ministry. Regardless, I don't think it helps the Kingdom to attack SGM.
@@nathanfulton446 agreed
Very helpful, as always, Gavin.
I was talking with my brother and cousin about Andrew Tate again this weekend, so this is a nice and timely video. It's not quite a fit over what we were talking about, but it's something. I appreciate the focus on Christ as THE image of masculinity. There's so much confusion and frustration for young men looking to find role models (and I think role models are a universal aspect of masculinity), that having Jesus as a reliable pointer of what it should look like could help, if only we remember to point to him and not merely critique all the errors around us.
I also think one of the big tricks is pulling ourselves out of an oversimplified thinking- it's either one extreme, the other, or something in the middle. It's none of those! When the choices are" live for yourself" or "be kind and do no harm", we are seeing things only at the human level, as if that is enough to summarize reality. This is the framework of our modern Western culture, and I don't know a way around it without consciously withdrawing from it, a la leaving your father and mother to follow Jesus. If we forget that our king lives, then how can we remain citizens of his kingdom? I hope that makes some sense.
The cultural thing is such a good point. The people where I live hold strength to be a high value, for both men and women. It's the women who do the lifting and hauling, for instance. And the men generally stand around with their spears or bows to protect them while they haul water or food or wood or whatever. After interaction with westerners, the roles have changed a bit, with the women standing around with the children while the men carry and haul a little more. But you still have women doing the majority of the day-to-day hauling.
I completely agree with you gavin
Great video
But i would be curious about what true biblical masculinity looks like
You should make a video that is a positive case for biblical masculinity
Samson, Gideon, Moses, Joshua, David, Josiah, Solomon, Paul, etc are all fantastic examples!
@RebelPaladin1 yeah of course I get that 😂
What are the distinct attributes that those people embody that make up biblical masculinity?
@@jackcrow1204 Almost too many to list on RUclips!
Samson was a judge of ancient Israel who was blessed with super strength to defend the people of God. His downfall was lust, but even after his hair was shorn, he was able to pray to God and his strength was renewed and he destroyed the temple of Dagon in Gaza.
Gideon was able to discern which men were worthy of following him, and led 300 men into battle and they were able to crush the Midianites.
Moses grew up as Egyptian royalty, but left a life of luxury, and was chosen by God to speak truth to the Pharaoh and led the Israelites out of Egypt.
Joshua led the people of Israel into the Promised Land where they fought the Canaanites, who were performing abominable practices.
David trusted God, was able to defeat the Giant, was on the run from Saul, and eventually became King. And he wrote the Psalms. Truly the Battle King composing. And he is named a man after God's own heart.
Josiah led a series of reforms to purify they land, including the destruction of idols of evil Gods, such as Ba'al and Asherah, and reinstituted the Passover, among other things.
Solomon asked God for wisdom, and the book of Proverbs is still full of sage advice for all believers.
Paul was saved by the power of Jesus Christ, and even though he had a thorn in his flesh and suffered persecution for his faith, spread the Gospel, edified the early church and wrote many letters which became part of the New Testament. Were all these men perfect? No, but they all trusted God and followed Him.
Biblical masculinity is about faith, strength, the ability to speak truth and live it out. To fight against an ungodly culture and pursue righteousness. Do not be afraid of battle with the culture. Embrace the Prince of Peace, the King of Righteousness who will come in Power and Judgment, and spread the love of God.
Great video, as always, Gavin. I love Truth Unites. I would just like to say that the pastor who put out this tweet is one of my absolute favorite pastors. His sermons are available, and they are rock solid. I am curious why he would say this. I am not claiming to agree or disagree with him, but I believe he likely has a well thought out reason for what he is trying to convey.
I think this discussion is remiss without mentioning the modern forces that frustrate young men's sense of their masculinity: porn, video game fantasy. Also substituting fathers with Google searches.
"Biblical masculinity is the glad assumption of sacrificial responsibility" Doug Wilson
I like Matthew 9:35&36 as an example.
Jesus went into cities and synagogues teaching with boldness. Why? Because He had compassion on them; seeing them as sheep without a shepherd.
It's telling that this pastor (the one tweeting about the song, not Gavin) doesn't actually provide any argument or biblical basis for his criticism. All he can point to is the exceedingly vague notion of the style of the music having an "effeminate vibe".
I personally don’t care for this popular worship song, musically speaking. However, not because it is “effeminate.” I too have been expecting the inevitable pushback our societal drift into toxic feminism has invited, even begged for. I dread the fallout from hyper-masculinity even more than hyper-feminism, although I believe the latter has led to the former.
Yes, so silly. He doesn’t seem very secure in his own masculinity if worship song sung by hundreds of men in unison expressing thanks to our Savior can trigger him like that.
Gendered tones, patterns, and melodies are not controversial topics among classical musicians
Pastor Armen pointed out something that used to be obvious
No pastor is more masculine than Gavin 👆
Fax
Amen!
Is this youtuber here named Gavin. I'm new here.
Exactly my thought
yes this is Gavin Ortlund@@USMC-cv5sd
These men would hate to be friends with someone like Saint Augustine or I’d argue even Jesus. Augustine described his male friendships with such unbridled affection. And Jesus was a meek passionate leader who loved his disciples in a way these men would call “effeminate”
Gavin I really like your videos but I think you missed the target on this one.
The problem with the examples of the warrior-poet archetype in David and Churchil, and some other people mention Aragorn and the like, is that mentioning behaviors like writing poetry and painting, as things that don't detract from masculine characters, doesn't elucidate what is masculine in the first place. It's not that this or that behavior makes someone masculine or unmasculine, they're are just evidence of masculinity or lack of it. So what we know by analyzing those characters is that masculinity is permissible, not prescritive. They are masculine despite those behaviors, not because of them. Try taking one of them and removing the Warrior, strength, leadership part. Suddenly doing poetry and cooking is not so masculine. So instead of talking of what masculinity is in essence, people hyperfocus on behavior that may be evidence of that essence. Both sides are wrong in doing that, both the side saying you need to do that do be masculine, and the side saying you don't need any specific behavior to be masculine. Like I said, certain behaviors are evidence of masculinity and there would be no signs of it in a character or person that doesn't exhibit them.
Also looking at it from a societal standards basis, instead of a universal objective essence of the masculine is even worse. Because instead of describing what is masculine and judging each society by that standard (masculinity is...), you just reduce masculinity to what society says a man should be (masculinity should...). Then how can you begin to criticize young men for being lost when by that optic they are already being the masculine ideal they were thaught (passive, apathetic, submissive, non threatening).
This compounds with the issue in my first paragraph. Cooking and poetry isn't masculine. A masculine warrior cooking and writing poetry is *still* masculine. In the modern world and especially in Christianity, the warrior part (the essence of what makes a warrior, assertiveness, prowess, leadership, etc) is utterly suppressed in men. They understand they won't be masculine by writing poetry and cooking, and not being allowed to be truly masculine they get discouraged, dropped out of society, or worse. The church has no answer for this, because like this video shows anything even mentioning the issue is labeled as insecure prescriptive hyper masculinity, when that is not always the case. This is a huge issue when churches are aging and when young people *do* go to church, they go to the hyper liberal ones. Church culture is definitely more geared towards and thus more attractive to women to a point where it's an edemic issue that young women are looking for worldly men for marriages. Easier to convert a man than find a man among christians it seems.
"effeminate vibes" at TMU. 😂😂😂 I bursted in laughter. Edit: No claim seems to wild in a cry for relevance.
Listen to a European football chant, or great sea shanty sung by men, and then listen to this. Here is the difference. 1, the song is set at a range that has most people at the top of their range and you can tell, comparatively they sound like boys not men until the second part where they try to go lower. (As a man I struggle in most worship songs where I can go high and strain and sounds boyish, or I can go low and keep bottoming out my range because it too low, or I can flip around sounding like I can't make up my mind.) 2, you can see the reluctance to sing and I've seen that in specifically men, and most men within the church, and yet they would happily join in a chant or shanty because those songs are inherently masculine and engaging to men in a way that this music isn't. There are plenty of shanties that sing of great emotions and love too, but there are few modern worship songs that sing of God's power and wrath and justice in a masculine way. 3. Even the instruments here are flowery and gentle piano and not engaging the way masculine music doesn't even need instrumentation to be.
I had been thinking about this topic awhile, just see the engagement that men would have with a worship song built like Northwest Passage by Stan Rogers, or the Wellerman.
Not to mention that songs in men's ranges aren't hard for women to follow in their natural pitches like it is vice versa. God designed men to lead and women to follow and you can see it at even in music and how we're built in the image of God.
If singing about Gods love is feminine, than the Gospel of Jesus Christ is feminine at its core. The apostle John whom focused on love and is famous for speaking so much on love, and is called the disciple whom Jesus loved (and described himself on Jesus shoulder) is not only feminine but gay. This is the logical conclusion to the argument. But Christs love isn’t exclusive to women, and it’s not gay. Christs love is for all and men should understand love and expressing love
Thank you👏
A lot of the hypermasculinity is valuing Esau’s aesthetic over the Jacob’s-the zealot over Christ’s.
Thanks for validating the concerns of young men. It's so easy to kick them while they're down. Especially, when an over-reaction (or a precieved one) occurs.
Without knowing any of the players involved, I do wonder if the problem isn't hyper-masculinity but rather masculine LARPing. It's very easy to tweet about a song being effeminate. It's hard to have a thourough worldview/theology that critiques things that are too "effeminate." And it would be even harder to live by it. Alot of "Tradicals" are addicted to their smartphones.
Read the Puritans. Nobody was more tender than they were, or had a more bridal love for Christ, because nobody was more firmly Biblical.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS MESSAGE! As a talkative, cuteness loving, emotional, group-oriented, very emotionally close and open with my friends, Christian man who is a complementarian, this message is so utterly refreshing to hear!
I've seen first hand the horribly toxic spiritual result that hypermasculinity can have on a Christian young man. I pray that he's grown past it now but a few years back I met a young man online who claimed to be Christian, and he INSISTED that I was a groomed homosexual entirely because I have an anime profile picture, ranted about how women should not be allowed to use the internet, bragged about how he never cried or showed extreme emotion, talked about how God leaves us "on our own" without help in this life as some kind of supposedly masculine independence, and also had actually racist views that I won't get into as an overreaction to social liberalism.
Generally he was just incredibly abusive and draining to try to interact with and debate with cause he would engage in what he saw as "masculine ribbing" (something that I never enjoy) regarding my "effeminate" personality and my race (I'm Italian genetically and he wouldn't stop making super uncomfortable comments regarding it). And when I called him out on it he would dismissively claim that I was acting "like a woman" for being emotionally upset at his comments.
Ultimately even though I wanted to try and minister to him we blocked each other and that was that. So yeah I really do pray he's grown out of that now but at that time at least he was legitimately not Christian as he added so much to the Biblical role of man and basically followed his own invented religion at that point while acting in a horrid way, all cause of buying into weird hypermasculinity as supposedly what God requires.
Well, at least he wasn’t claiming to be a Christian. We can pray for the salvation of his soul. 🙏
@@melodysledgister2468 I apologize if I was not clear enough. But he was unfortunately claiming to be a Christian. Indeed even so all we can do is pray for him and I do pray. God bless you as well.
John Lovell’s concept of “Warrior Poet” kind of touches on this.
This shows how important it is for men and women to make plans to read all the Bible and keep doing over and over. The more you do the more one can recall from
All over the Bible when it speaks about a subject.
“The devil always sends errors into the world in pairs--pairs of opposites. And he always encourages us to spend a lot of time thinking which is the worse. You see why, of course? He relies on your extra dislike of the one error to draw you gradually into the opposite one.”
-Lewis
I pretty much agree with the points made in this video, but doesn't the term hyper-masculinity imply that a person can be too masculine? Maybe I am taking the term too literally. I don't think a person can be excessively masculine which is almost like saying that a person can be excessively loving. Ppeople labeled as excessively masculine are probably either genuinely masculine and virtuous or they have a perverse version of masculinity that is actually less masculine since it opposes true masculinity[expressed by David except for his sins and by Jesus and by pretty much every faithful man in the Bible]. The golden mean view of masculinity that seems common in America seems to see masculinity as something that needs to be held in check rather than pursued and appreciated. Instead of seeing bad behavior, irreverence, and emotional numbness as too masculine, I see it as a rejection of manliness just as much as effeminacy is. Maybe I could be construed as believing in some form of the golden mean, but I think it is an oversimplification and that we should not be shooting for some idea of masculinity that is delicate balance between two extremes, I think it is an extreme. Many people seem to picture the spectrum as a line with anti-masculinity on one extreme endpoint and hyper-"masculinity"/toxic-"masculinity"/machismo[in the pejorative sense] on the other endpoint. I suspect that the concept of spectrum is either an inaccurate and maybe even counterproductive analogy for reality or that we are at least wrongly conflating different spectrums with this issue, but I would see ideal masculinity as more like the vertex on the extreme end of two [or more] lines with one line ending in the most extreme effeminacy and the other line ending in a sort of equally false anti-masculinity that is not effeminate but equally anti-masculine by rejecting love, self-discipline, and companionship. Sort of animalistic[not in a good way] or even demon-like. Calling the other other form of anti masculinity true masculinity is as inaccurate as calling effeminacy feminine.
No man on earth other than God has been perfectly masculine, most of us have the vice of manliness either in the form of effeminacy or other manliness like unlove. Some of us may be utterly free from all effeminacy[which is good], but fall short of manliness in other ways. Jesus is His incarnation came very close to being the extreme fulfillment of manliness during the first 30 years of His incarnation, He was/is perfectly pure and loving and possibly was only lacking in the sort manliness that you need more than 30 years to mature into[but He has certainly attained that some time between His resurrection and now] since I suppose we would all be like boys compared to the first men who lived hundreds of years. And if the human nature of Yahweh was not extreme enough, the divine nature takes the good things about manliness[endurance, fighting spirit, etc] to extremes that go far beyond our potential and comprehension... I don't think He is in some balancing act between two vices and I don't think it is proper to think of manliness as a balancing act. Love is not a balancing act, love does not compromise with unlove[rebellion] nor does love embrace any degree of effeminacy[rebellion] in a man. I don't regard myself as extremely manly but it was a paradigm shift for me to set my target endpoint/extreme at christlikeness.
I at least know enough about manliness to know that a truly manly man will be accused by the effeminate of being too manly or insecure or so on. Truly manly men will also inevitably be seen as weak by those who see men as apes and strive to be worldly alpha-males[desiring to be like clueless animals]. If accused of such things by such people, I feel like I am doing something right and I simply recognize that they are too clueless about masculinity to have a worthwhile opinion on it. What truly humbles me is comparing myself to Jesus and the apostles and prophets, I am boyish[unmanly] and corrupt[unmanly] and emotionally-dead[unmanly] compared to them but I look forward to becoming like them. I don't think effeminacy is a vice I struggle with at all, but I am still far from christlike and therefor not as manly as I ought to be. But rather than wanting to restrict the things about me that effeminate types regard as too masculine[strengths and virtues] and what those with false-machismo call weak[love and emotion], I want to increase in those things and that is basically why it seems counterproductive to speak as as if there is a vice of being too masculine.
Not to be super picky, but I wish Noadiah (see Nehemiah 6:14) had not been mentioned in the list of prophetesses along with godly women like Deborah and Huldah
this is not an issue at all amongst mature brethren in the faith. it's childish and takes up space that would otherwise be taken up by solid engagement that builds and nurtures the faith of the church.
What evidence has led you to this conclusion?
You mentioned how “overreaction” has been a source of error throughout human history. What events might you be referring to? Love your videos 🙌🏼
I will definitely say the music in most churches is very unsettling and worldy.....and effeminate..... and an attempt at emotional manipulation thru pagan tactics of repetition to make the listener FEEL like they are having a spiritual experience but it's actually the flesh in a euphoric trance like state. Similar to Buddhists and the sects of Eastern pagan religions.
I think a better term than hyper masculinity would be pseudo masculinity
Dear Pastor Gavin, thank you for posting this.
I would like to hear thoughts on who the biblical model of femininity is/are :) I mean, there are loads of examples, from Sarah to the proverbs 31 woman to Mary… but if there was one woman to look towards as a feminine example (as there is in Jesus for masculinity), who would you point to? Just curious.
Is there anything more masculine than Jesus Christ himself?
What happened to singing the battle hymn of the republic, or onward Christian soldiers, or Crown him with many crowns. Our Father in heaven isn’t just a loving father, he’s a Righteous and powerful God. His son is the King of Kings, and the LORD of lords, the fierce lion of Judah, the one who comes to judge the living and the dead. The Bible is full of Christian masculinity, if only we will not ignore it. Also God of Grace and God of Glory seems distinctly masculine to me.
I think I’m going to write a full response to this, but I can’t help but think this is a too late, too little, focusing on the splinter instead of the log rebuttal.
Anyone watching this, notice the term “hyper masculinity” is just a soft coded feminist term for toxic masculinity.
There have been many issues with feminism entering the modern church and demanding that men adopt a “happy wife, happy life” mentality idolizing or even worshipping the feminine experience as a sacred cow.
There are so many issues right now, I find it weird that here’s a whole break down on toxic masculinity as it pertains to a negligible percentage of church goers, male Christian’s, and secular society.
It just seems frankly a little blind. Was the tweet appropriate? Well it wasn’t inappropriate. There are many Christian songs today that have a really strong feminine undertone that almost treats Jesus as a boyfriend.
To take that observation and then warn against toxic masculinity is so odd… instead of maybe … doing a fair critique and then critiquing feminism in the church.
I suspect until the church is really ready to be outspoken about women and how we as men have succumbed to the “husband is dumb, wives know best” feminist narrative … toxic masculinity will only rise. Because the people that should bring balance (Christian men) are only telling men not to say mean things or that really “the Bible is totally progressive and feminist” and that we should be careful not to upset women.
Its not soft coded for anything, it is simply just describing repill and tate grafters. But yeah, the rest is right.
I'd go as far as saying the notion of hypermasculinity/toxic masculinity are false. It doesn't make sense to me that being too strong, or too rational, or too brave for example can be negative. Rather, I think negative male behaviors are a deficit of certain traits. So for example, a man with too much strength and bravery but no rationality can be barbaric. This explains why as men when we see another man doing something morally abhorrent, we'd say he's not a "real man." Not that he's too much of one
Reminds me of Voddie and Barley Protestent.
If you’re just a hammer, you have to find nails to hit, or you find yourself with no purpose. That’s so often a problem in today’s discourses.
It’s significant to mention here that “fundamentalism” is a word that unfortunately implies that false, un-Christlike interpretations of scripture are “fundamental” views on its meaning, when in fact they represent human insecurity projected onto a passage.
I am a relatively conservative Christian, but that’s a statement I cannot make in some contexts, not because it’s true, but because I want those people to take me seriously, and they have a completely different understanding of what “Conservative Christian” means, one that would NOT accurately describe me and my beliefs.
In the interest of a full and complete agreement on terms, I just don’t mention the ones that, rightly or wrongly, carry so much cultural baggage, unless I absolutely must. And it’s sadly the fault of “fundamentalists” that fundamentalism is synonymous with “bad doctrine” among Christians, and seen as *validation* of the Bible BEING “bad doctrine” by declared enemies of the faith.
Hypermasculinity and King David: David represented the good, the bad, and the morally ugly. His initial "relationship" as King with a subject, Bathsheba, was far from righteous. And then it ended in murder to cover over his abuse of power.
BTW: Men and women can both do this - it just looks different.
Yet, David owned it when confronted and lived with the consequences.
And, we can't forget that the brave soldier David had too much blood on his hands to have the honor of building the Temple - according to God. Valor on the battlefield involving tremendous bloodshed is not the best image for courage in the ideal.