We Need To Talk About Ward
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- Опубликовано: 24 апр 2024
- I can't rant about it if Gavin admits the issue. That's too upfront and self-relfective!
Gavin's video:
• The Future of Ward! | ...
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Nice video, Vince! Sorry I stole your video topic. Guess I have... Ward - Make a Video Explaining Ward
Or rather Ward - Let Gavin make the Ward video first
You're good, I think we all appreciate the openness and accessibility to reach a lead designer of such a massive game we all love.
@@Vorniforousclueless
@@Vorniforous"clueless" isn't really an insult, but I guess if you get offended by being called ignorant 😂
@goodmorningmagic the ward on Sauron is perfect. My favorite card ever!
Gavin did kinda hit on it by looking at Voja and Tivit but... My BIGGEST problem with ward is that when it's larger numbers it can feel like hexproof at most stages of the game, even in commander. Tempo still matters in commander, even if it is more casual. But they wouldn't have printed actual hexproof on the card. So the card feels pushed in most games, because the ward is acting like the keyword it shouldn't have. Ward is really best at 1, 2, and unique costs like discard a card or pay life. 3 and higher, and it runs into the "im basically hexproof, but im given power like im not actually hexproof."
I love when Ward has costs other than mana. It can really push the design space in interesting directions. Like how the one Sauron from the LotR set had a Ward that forced you to sacrifice a Legendary Creature or Artifact. It's a really flavorful and strong Ward, against certain match-ups.
Meanwhile, a Ward of 3+ mana is, as you said, functionally Hexproof. And the designers were handing it out like candy, on cards that really shouldn't have functional Hexproof.
@@Bluecho4 isn’t Sauron’s ward a lot worse? Sacrificing a legendary creature is generally more punishing unless you’re playing Henzie or something.
Really well put. I've got a ratafrabik and a Ardix&Nev deck, both have ward 2 and that alone usually allows them to go untargetted by removal until late game. They're some of my best decks and I think that Ward has a big reason to do with them working so well. It just deters opponents from spending 5 or 6 mana on removal early enough into a game, especially when they want to do their own thing. Ward 3 seems a bit ridiculous, especially on a commander that's already so pushed and useful. I also enjoy the unique costs you mentioned and think they should be utilized more often instead of numbers like 3 or higher.
@Dyllon2012 Yes it is, but it’s also inherently a lot more interesting to engage with. Wards bypassed by mana are just generic taxes, you may as well have Thalia or Augustine in play most of the time
Wards like Sauron’s though require a tactical sacrifice that both players can play around. And it’s also just a lot more flavorful-like Sauron’s ward references Gollum falling into Mount Doom with the One Ring
I personally think the rule should be that ward shouldn't be able to cost more than half of the card that has it. So a 1-3 drop can have ward 1, a 4-5 drop can have ward 2, and so on. Ward feels like its intended to make it so the opponent has to pay an equal amount of mana to kill it as you did to play it, rather than hexproof which is intended to protect it forever, so having half the cost as ward seems to handle that well.
Maybe the MTG Goldfish crew was right, and the 9 wrath meta is the way forward now that spot removal isn't as viable.
Especially with the best sweepers ever getting printed like sunfall it definitely does feel like the best way to go for control
Spot removal has been bad for like 5 years already. Shelly/gix is the only thing that makes it relevant
@@irou95 whay about slickshot?
So let Pantlaza and Hakbal builds run rampant with free value while we fail to prevent the incremental value?
@user-pq8on8bx9gwhat a completely lost take. Ward is not only lazy but is also a mechanic given to the wrong legendaries. “Just ramp more forehead” isn’t a good defense
Horobi, looking at creatures with Ward: *You have no power here*
Same with Chimil players like myself lol
Uh, you use Chimil as a commander? Or is he in the 99? It's a legendary artifact, not a creature lol
@@rubiusstudios5709Chimil in the 99 of a very commander-focused deck: Naya Dinos
Void Rend reporting for duty!
I think Ward in of itself is a good mechanic when it does something more than make your opponent pay one extra mana. We've seen this with Black cards that have Ward, instead of just paying 1 extra mana, your opponent has to decide if they want to sacrifice a permanent or discard a card, which not everyone is going to be able to do or want to do.
I'd like to see we do more with the other colors, like White having your opponent choose things like you gaining a life or making a token, Green lets you search for a basic or put a +1/+1 counter on a creature you control, red deals damage to them or they sacrifice a land, blue has you draw a card a card or they bounce a permanent to their hand.
There's some excellent space here that makes it more interesting than just a Poorman's Hexproof, but it also shouldn't be pushed to the extreme its being used.
I personally disagree with this. Ward is a powercreep in a nutshell. Its terrible card design when they could just give the creature hexproof.
@adammorin2955 and you're just wrong.
@@mawillix2018 how so
@@adammorin2955because ward is weaker hexproof.
@@questionyourself718 it’s really not. Its honestly 100% better at most cases especially with ward 3,4 and sacrifice a permit or even sacrifice a legendary creature/discard a card/discard a card ones where you can’t even pay the ward cost. Yeah its targetable still but that doesn’t mean you’re gonna spend a turn casting a path or removal spell, plus you rather just use a wrath at that point just like hexproof/shroud.
Decks change. People change. But ward, ward never changes
Ward! Hooh! What is it good for?
Hexproof crying under the burial shroud
😂
It's really wardping the meta around itself
Ward: go next door and get me pepper chicken with shrimp fried rice.
THEN you can kill me
Ward is fine as long as the cost isn't ridiculous. Ward 3+ may as well be hexproof in most instances cause it will practically cost you the whole turns worth of mana to deal with it and often will result in whatever it is going uncontested without a wipe in my experience. But I do like alternate ward costs like paying life or sacking something. Sauron having one of the most insane alternate ward costs I think.
ThrabenU had a good point on his podcast about the Ward 1 on Lavaspur boots. It literally doubles the cost of the best removal spell in Legacy. When I started thinking about it this way, it made me realize how even small Ward is powerful
Ward is literally a gateway for wotc to print more busted creatures and say wait it’s targetable because not having shroud or hexproof which is arguably weaker
@@adammorin2955it’s not weaker, WotC is just putting ward on more powerful permanents than the typical big bogle that they stuck hexproof on.
"Ward, we need to talk about the Giant Beaver."
I showed you my Giant Beaver. Please respond.
Good to see the Whatnot crowd showing up lol
bless the beaver
Are we not gonna talk about the giant beaver in the room?
Worst mistake I ever made was mounting the Giant Beaver.
Ward 1: A small tax for interacting with the permanent, encourages opponents to pick something else to target
Ward 2: A serious defense for the permanent, usually gets to stick around at least until an opponent untaps and you may get to untap with it even if it's an obvious "remove on sight" target
Ward 3: Don't put it on something you would immediately rule out hexproof for
Ward 4+: Keep it conditional, like on Iymrith
Ward--Pay 2 life: Neither the permanent's controller nor the opponent feels great after a removal spell, but neither feels awful, either
Ward--Pay 3 life: The permanent's controller is starting to feel better about it being removed
Ward--Discard a card: It really hurts, but sometimes the two-for-one is worth it, particularly with cards that can do stuff from the graveyard
In any case, use it sparingly and keep it flavorful.
ward - Sacrifice a legendary permanent : ............
ward-Discard a specefic card: oh F*** OFF
My issue with ward is twofold. One, it's another protection effect that while, "strictly worse than hexproof," it can be slapped on to more cards because of this and shows less restraint in design. Two, it makes single target removal less effective, pushing players into playing more board wipes. I have no problem with board wipes, but a lot of players do, so I have to hear more people moaning about "slowing the game down."
Yeah, these things can get really obnoxious. I would almost prefer to see the horrible "protection from a player" from True Name Nemesis return, because at least it means that someone else can kill it in a commando game.
I just got back into MtG recently after a long time being away. When I left, they just keyworded shroud (it was Lorwyn/Shadowmoor) and had it on a bunch of stuff and that felt almost oppressive but was balanced in that you paid a high price to play it.
Coming back and reading about hexproof and ward just feels.... _immensely_ powerful. Being able to buff/manipulate targets while your opponent can't is just so strong.
I think the issue is that the prescence of Ward rarely factors into the cost, even when the Ward ability might as well be hexproof. Voja and Sauron might as well have Hexproof, but they aren't costed accordingly.
Shield counters where better designed ward you can't change my mind
I do wish we had as many shield creatures as ward.
ward is still good though
Proliferate breaks shield counters, tho.
I'll do my best. Shield counters are the more fair version of Indestructible and comparing them to Ward isn't enough of a one to one. Sure they're both forms of protection yet they fulfill different goals in the same way regenerate and hexproof fulfill different goals.
@OninRuns
Simple fix, make Shield a keyword counter like Trample or Flying, so that they are exclusive regardless of how the creature received them.
They should evergreen shield counters and stun counters 🙌
Ward 2 is such an interesting mechanic, becuase it looks so unamusing but when you realize your go for the throat cost 4 and thats basically means deciding between timewalking yourself to answer the thing, or letting it run rampant and you realize its true power. I loved Gavin's video on it. I love your take. Its a cool mechanic, we just all missevaluated a bit.
Non mana ward is based
As primarily a limited player, I definitely appreciate Ward, particularly since removal feels like it keeps getting more and more abundant at lower and lower mana, so ward is a way to keep your bombs feeling fun without resorting to hexproof, which is often unfun.
Gisa, the hellraiser has ward 2 and pay 2 life
How did I miss that???
My solution to Gavin’s double Shock vs. a Ward (2) Toughness 4 creature = total 6 mana problem is to make it like the ability of Clergy of the Holy Nimbus and Knight of the Holy Nimbus.
Pay the not-ward cost, it loses the ward until end of turn?
@@christopherb501 Yep.
“Hexproof. (Cost): [CARDNAME] loses Hexproof until end of turn. Only your opponents may activate this ability.”
Oh So like Regeneration? ;p
I had the same thought. Could rewrite the rules to make ward abilities stop triggering after you've paid for them once on a given turn. Alternately, retire ward and replace it with a new keyword that has the "pay once to turn off for rest of turn" rule.
They could also make more red burn spells/effects with "This spell/effect can't be countered by abilities" (basically "Wardproof").
some of the ideas I have:
make some spells and abilities have the "Choose a" wording that gets around targeting, or delve more into temur sabertooth's ability, like have a spell with "destroy a creature on the battlefield". Years ago when i was into creating cards i had a mechanic called Breakthrough that ignores/isn't affected by spells and abilities. Something like that would be nice.
Have ward shut off after it's been triggered and the cost paid, shut off for a player that has paid the cost, or any player can pay the cost, or make the owner of the ward card have to pay something everytime after the first ward is paid.
Make ward have to be paid upon casting/etb and the ward is ignored while it's on the field if it's paid.
re-errata ward where any player that targets has to pay, or make cards that turn it around and make ward a detriment rather than a benefit, like tainted remedy for ward.
To copy/paste my comment on Gavin's video on this subject yesterday:
The issue is that MTG designers seem to ignore that Ward, like Hexproof and Shroud, should be on a limited number of cards.
In all of Magic, there are around: 250 cards with hexproof, 120 with shroud, and over 110 cards with ward despite the mechanic only existing for 3 years. Think about that… Ward has nearly 1/2 the number of cards that Hexproof has, a mechanic that’s existed since 2011, and within a set or two will have more cards than Shroud, a mechanic that’s existed since 1994.
Ward is being handed out like candy to cards that frankly shouldn’t have it. Powerful cards are kill on sight because they are powerful. They don’t need to have built in protection.
For example, if I play Kaalia the Vast, I full expect my opponent to kill Kaalia immediately if I don’t have some sort of protection available for her. Someone playing Voja or Miirym as their commander knows it’s a kill on sight card… they should be required to work to protect it, not have that protection built in so they don’t need to do anything.
All three keywords should be used as appropriate, but they really need to be included in the casting cost better. Going back to Voja as a recent example: a 5/5 trample vigilance for 5 that makes +1/+1 counters and draws cards seems fair… why does it also need Ward 3, and where is the mana value going to show that? Like… even without Ward 3 it’s arguably worth 5 mana, so why doesn’t it cost even more for having such great built in protection? Basically, Hexproof would cause a card to cost 1 - 2 extra mana, but it doesn't seem like ward is increasing the CMC of the cards it's on, it's just being put on cards with no thought to that element of the design.
Just bring back Hexproof.
@@Nephalem2002 All three should exist. Ward, Hexproof, and Shroud, should appear on cards, but they need to be costed appropriately in the CMC (which ward absolutely hasn't been so far), and shouldn't be put on already extremely powerful cards a la Mirrym and Voja. Instead, they should be put on lower and mid-level cards to make them stronger.
Voja should have been 7-9 mana depending, def not below 7. 8 seens the right place.
I don't disagree, but I think part of the overuse and inflated numbers of Ward vs. Hexproof is simply due to there being *far* more product being pushed out. So that's definitely a factor beyond WotC tending to almost always overuse universal keywords after introducing them, with both being similarly responsible for why we have such an obnoxious amount of Treasure-generating cards already.
Still, I'm glad that we have Ward now for all of my other recent issues with the game since gods Hexproof was even more obnoxious on most things. So I'd be glad with that Hexproof never coming back, personally.
I said it already in another comment but I think ward should be limited to being half or less of the total CMC of the card its on. So Voja having ward 2 seems fine, pushed but acceptable, while that 3rd mana adds a lot of unnecessary burden to it. They could have upped the CMC to 6 and kept the ward and stats the same but with the current cheap cost AND high ward, it adds up quick.
I like how flexible ward is as a mechanic. Ward pay 3 life is really good on an aggressive creature. On a value engine not so much.
Ward, "sacrifice a creature" and "discard an instant sorcery or enchantment" can be brutal depending on the state of the game but not always.
Ward 2; on a two mana 1/1 that grows every turn is not gonna save the creature forever but it might save ot long enough for you to win.
@2:26 We have the very playable Shadow Spear. What colourless permeant turns off Ward abilities as cheaply? (In many cases, Ward is better than Hexproof to actually protect your creatures).
To illustrate this better, if every creature that has Ward, they just gained Hexproof, then your meta would be around dealing with and circumventing Hexproof. Shadow Spear’s price will climb accordingly and you will want to draw/tutor the Shadow Spear (same goes for lands like Arcane Lighthouse).
The only counter play to Ward is ‘cant be counted’ spells. Until that anti Ward tech is printed on more playable spells, you cannot in an alt way disable Ward (iff the Ward tax is too much of a tempo loss).
Yeah I think that is a good point that isn't mentioned. If spells can't be countered for whatever reason ward is definitely worse than shroud and hexproof. Sort of a rare ability, but I like that ward is countered by such simple text where hexproof requires non targets, sweeps, or complicated text that removes it or makes it targetable for whatever reason.
Also "this spell can't be countered" effectively countering ward is funny in and of itself
@@kevanrynning5078 oh certainly. When you look at Trample vs Protection from that source of Trampling damage: Magic has plenty of circular logic loops.
Or simply that a fight is a form of noncombat damage.
I just try to not look too deeply at the linguistic paradoxes.
Amazing how much goodwill Gavin's video seems to have bought with the community.
I know, right?
One thing I really love about ward (as someone who plays Fleshgorger with cheat-death cards) is that you can let your opponent pay the ward cost, then respond to the spell that targeted it.
There are also a couple instances (mainly just with vein ripper) where you can respond to the ward trigger to stop your opponent from being able to pay for it.
So, most of the players at my store in DFW Texas really like OTJ, the flavor, and the cowboy stuff. even the humor. i think when you are surrounded by earnest examples of people who are into all this cowboy stuff all the time it's kind of nice to have product that pays some homage to it also acknowledge and lean into how goofy it is sometimes. I really appreciated how campy some of this stuff was.
@3:30 There are some conditional cards that have ward 4 and some of these are not even commanders but playable creatures with super ward:
Iymrith, Desert Doom
Tyrranax Rex
Winged Boots
Kappa Cannoneer
Neverwinter Hydra
Tyranid Harridan
I am glad this list is short and hopefully we see some very different Ward costs (maybe OR’d together costs so you can either sac something or pay mana cause you are flooded. Concurrently Ward costs are AND’d together.)
better play testing is needed most. With arena, they have a readily exploitable venue for play test. While they may insist that they do not want consumers to see cards while in development, they would have a difficult time justifying it. This does not mean open up play testing to all of Arena, but more likely a carefully currated population which still needs to be large. This would be a big marketing win as well as beneficial to the overall quality of each set.
Ward 3 is basically hexproof.
"look over the main set of thunder junction and only see 1 legendary with ward attached to it"
did you forget about Gisa?
Yep. Lol
Ward - sacrifice a permanent
On mishra tamer of mak fawa is overlooked af.
Ward - sacrifice a creature
Also this too, as against any noncreature deck is insanely good
Sauron, The Dark Lord noises
Honestly would you rather have ward discard a card(sometimes you can’t) ward 3, sacrifice a permit or hexproof? Cause to me its basically the same thing but ward is wotc saying its targetable
6:00 the fact that they cant depict actual guns, makes this cowboy set feel extremely weird
Even weirder is the most wanted artwork of indomitable creativity is a cowboy making a trick shot with a laser gun.
I would have liked to have seen a more serious fantasy-western theme like The Dark Tower than the Eldrane tongue in cheek theme we got.
but they can depict halo energy blades
Wouldn't the solution be to include start making "ward hate" cards. Cards that either get an extra effects if you pay the ward or can ignore ward and get a smaller benefit. So... examples...
RR instant - Deal target 2 damage.
If the target has a ward cost that you paid deal 4 damage instead.
1R Instant - Deal target 3 damage.
Players and permanents with shroud or hexproof can be targeted. If the target has ward you may choose to not pay the cost. If you target a player or permanent with with shroud, hexproof or ward you deal 1 damage instead unless the ward cost was paid.
2 Artifact - 1 {tap}: When target permanent with Ward is targeted by a spell or ability you control the owner must pay 2 or the ward cost (your choice). If they don't the cost of the triggered ability becomes 0.
1 {tap}: Permanents with Shroud or Hexproof lose the the effect of the ability against your spells and abilities until end of turn. They also gain 2: Counter target spell or ability targeting [name].
2U Sorcery - When you cast this spell make a copy on the stack.
Return target creature or artifact to it's players hand.
While this spell is on the stack, as a part of their casting cost, when you target a permanent that has ward with a spell or ability you may choose to ignore the ward cost. Afterwards remove this spell from the stack.
While this spell is on the stack, as a part of their casting cost, spells and abilities you control can target players and permanents with shroud or hexproof. Afterwards remove this spell from the stack.
This a bit wordy, but with rules short hand that could avoid the need to treat ward and shroud/hexproof separately.
Alternatively you could change the core ward rules.
- You only need to pay the ward cost of a permanent once per turn.
- You only need to pay the ward cost of a permanent once per turn but a ward 1 cost must be paid each additional time you target the permanent that turn.
- You get 2 generic mana when pay a ward cost. If the Ward cost is 1 or 2 you instead get 0 or 1 mana respectively.
Having a scaleable Hexproof is really cool. My favorite are the ones with Ward that don't really require people to pay mana, but to do a different action. Like, say, sacrificing a legendary creature ( looking at you, Sauron ) or paying 9 life. It's a cool space to innovate on.
I mean, pretty much every set is loaded with Legendary creatures to cater to commander. A while back, I was curious how that compared to when I started playing back around Shard of Alara. There were 15 Legendary Creatures. In the entire *block*! And this was when the Core Sets were all reprints, and there weren't many expansions outside the 3 that made up the block each year.
Looking back at a lot of commanders I've made over the past year, it's startling how many have just incidentally had Ward on them, for one reason or another. Wilson/Raised by Giants, Karlach/Cultist of the Absolute (grants Karlach Ward), Fblthp, Lost on the Range....
It's not like I'm going out of my way looking for Ward commanders, either. They usually have other mechanics that I'm interested in, and Ward just shows up.
I really like ward, more specifically, I like ward that makes you pay a cost other than mana. Vein ripper is one of my favorite examples. "Ward: sacrifice a creature" is most certainly a cost, but not an unpayable one. I personally would love to see more of that.
this is a comment i made on gavins video regarding ward - I feel like you can split things into 3 abilites - ward which is NEVER a mana cost but instead a cost befitting it (black creatures have ward pay life for example) then you can easily do cards that cannot be target by spells ... simple easy and means threats cannot be dealt with easily but abilities still get through so evoke or tap to destroy abilities become fruitful and then on the opposite side you could do cannot be the target of abilities - means spells have high function but targeted removal from permanents alreayd in play is less threatening.
The main difference between Ward and Hexproof/Shroud is players really need to pay attention to what they do. Recently I had a game playing an Arahbo deck, in which I played Sovereign Okinec that really got out of hand at one point (dealing 68 trample dmg in one turn) and one turn one of the players tried to destory Okinec with I believe Feed the Swarm (or some other single removal), BUT he had only one open mana, forgetting that Okinec has Ward 2. If it was Hexproof, we'd just say "you can't target him" but with Ward, it was "Can you pay 2 more? If not, it's countered" so yeah, this way Okinec was still on the board and opponent was down one removal spell from hand.
❤❤❤ I'm such a fan of Thunder Junction! I've had a blast opening packs and building new commanders to test out over the next few weeks!!
Right.. you really gotta work to make those treasures. I kid I kid, I love when a commander is just a piece of the puzzle like OG quintorious
Before this set I was worried we'd never see a fair commander again. But then I got Miriam Herd Whisperer. I think people will look back fondly on this set, for all its issues (Kellen).
So. Let's say I have a golgari vanilla matters legacy deck. With 2 ancient tombs , 4 Herald of the Pantheon, and 3 petroglyphs.
Would people run 4 Stampede Surfer (like I currently am running) for a potential 8 damage, turn four? (Nice against footfalls)
Or is 4 a killer among us (from mkm) better at a 10 damage possibly turn four and a potential 12 damage turn five?
'A killer among us' being like a weird, slightly more powerful 'grave titan'. Of which I run a playset of in the sideboard.
This is why I love edicts
I made a Nine Fingers deck as a Voltron using totem aura's and life link equipment and single mana counter spells to protect him from targeted removal after they would pay the ward cost. The point of the deck was to make people pay the 9 life then counter the spell lol.
I've run into problems at the casual commander table due to the way Ward had to be worded. If someone cast Murder on a creature, but forgot it had Hexproof, it was very easy to roll it back, as the action would have been illegal anyways. With Ward countering the spell unless you pay the cost, it gets awkward asking the table if they can roll it back to keep their spell, or they get the feel bad moment as the opponent has to let their spell be countered and wasted.
Like this non-rant, balanced Reaction with Gavin's points in it to react to. More of this pls!
There's a balance with Ward that is hard to achieve where it's not impossible to remove the creature, but hard enough it's still worth playing it. Disguise walks that line. Because the Disguise cost is three, when playing it on curve your opponent can respond if they hit their 3rd land drop. It does limit the kind of removal to a one-drop and prevent a double spell turn. But that also limits the card to being a decoy for your hand, and if you get the payoff it's just icing on the cake. That reality made Disguise fun to pull off but kept it from becoming a mainstay in the meta. I think the best place Ward can go is to move to a modular design for the payoff: Ward 3 or discard a card/sack a land/pay 3 life.
As something who doesn’t interact with commander I think ward is great. There are overturned and egregious cards to be made with any mechanic, but having a tool that makes expensive creatures not trade down so hard is great for formats dominated by hyper efficient 1 mana removal
I'm here for the Ward IFF there is proper interaction with it. The idea that a spell 'cannot be countered' is powerful (yes to keep Blue players in their place) but also balancing Warded creatures.
Ideally there should be a mana rock which can activate to shut off ward+hexproof+shroud while helping you to cast an uncounterable spell. (Unless WotC wants to make Shadow Spear 2.0).
Even just having a choose 3 modes destroy wrath (creatures, artifacts, enchantments, or then exile graveyards) would help to curb Ward (to be more alone the lines of Cleansing Nova and half of Farewell).
Ive always equated ward to being a Tax type effect like Smothering Tithe /Rhystic Study rather than worse hexproof.
I want so much ward pay life cards, itd be really neat to make a sort of ward pay life aggro deck.
PK: Gavin video on ward is very good.
Me: Strongly Agree
@3:31 we have one commander with ward 4, it's "Iymrith, Desert Doom", but only if it is untapped.
There is a creature with ward 4, but it is conditional. Iymrith, Desert Doom has ward 4 if he's untapped.
I think my issue with ward is a combination of what gets ward alot of times and the fact that it's design tends to default to the generic mana-cost. The first point is pretty self-explanatory. Big, game-winning pieces like Voja shouldn't have inherent protection like ward. If you're running something that pushed for it's archetype, you should be expected to at least protect it until it untaps. At the very least, it should be a ward 1, not 3. Something like Fblthp, besides just the theming being on-point, is a small dude that isn't really gonna rip the game apart by itself, so I think it's fine to give him a bit of lasting-power. Same with like the disguises. They're a pretty big investment of time and mana to use, so giving them a chance to resolve is fine.
As for the second point? Well, I of the different forms of ward I like, I tend to prefer ones that force more unique costs that offer more interesting choices. Discarding cards, paying life, sacrificing permanents, I enjoy having stuff like that on ward costs, as it makes the decision making around it more interesting and can also lead to some more interesting interactions with your deck, forcing payments that might benefit your deck's strategy uniquely. I get that from a design-perspective, the generic cost is easier and less headache-inducing to implement as standard, but I'd like to see more ward costs experiment with other forms of costs for the effect that play into unique strategies, especially on legendaries made to be commanders.
You can get around Ward also via "cannot be countered" which makes cards like Void Rend incredible good these days.
best magic tuber who sounds like Winnie the Pooh on RUclips
I feel like wards big thing for me at least is the psychological cost. It's hard to make me want to pay 4 to use a Swords on Voja compared to the 1 on any other non ward commander. It's like paying at a marked up value, and as the prof over at TCC says, Don't Pay Markups.
I think that many of the things that were produced in the D&D sets were improperly implemented for example the tarrasque should have had either shroud or hexproof, but it didn't in addition to it should have either had regenerate or indestructible along side trample and other combat abilities but nope none of that was present. Instead it gets ward 10 which is able to be bypassed by spending (1) mana from over a dozen sources. Then they could have also given it a unique ability and I even have a name for it by the name of spell resistance or spell reflection. The ability would allow the controller of the tarrasque to change the target of any spell or ability that targets it to another target of the tarrasque's controllers choice. It could have a mana cost restriction of some kind either a minimum mana cost or a payment from the tarrasque's controller or maybe it makes the controller of the targeting spell to pay something extra to keep it from being redirected. Any of these options would have all been significantly better than what was received from Wizards.
So far, I've seen a huge variety of Ward costs. 1, 2, 3, Sacrifice a creature, Discard a Card, Discard Enchantment, instant, or sorcery, Sacrifice a legendary artifact or creature... there's a lot of ways to go about it. It's a versatile keyword, so I don't think it's going anywhere anytime soon. (Ban Voja please.)
I don’t mind steeper ward values on higher cost permanents that are dropping later game, but when Voja drops turn 3, that Ward 3 makes it almost impossible to remove for a turn or two. It really sucks in Arena brawl because there’s almost no way to interact with it until it’s already done its thing, and then you just have to pray for a board wipe.
We got ward 8 on that one sea monsters card, and that shit's hilarious
Candlestick Maker: Tawnos, Urza's Apprentice
Ward should only trigger once per turn.
I feel like ward would be great for big boss monsters with not much else going on aside from being big assholes that either annoy you or swing for massive damage- if it wasn't as common as it currently is. Utility being resistant to interruption is pretty whack, especially when its _everywhere._
we could have had something with Shield Counters but they kind screwed them over
Shield counters prevent the next Destruction or Damage the permanent receives...
this was very narrow and very easy to pop for free... Chump blocking a Shield Counter poped it for free. it could still be Exiled or Sacrificed
there are a few ways this could have been way better and not as powerful as ward
1) Make the Shield Counter not include Damage, as any death by Damage is Destruction, so it was redundancy just to make the mechanic worse
1-2) if thats still too weak, just make it include Exile. but add that it doesn't prevent Sacrifice
2) Make it pop on any "target" meaning it still dies by combat and repeatable target effects serve as good ways to pop it before you remove it.
I always read it as "lethal damage" not ANY damage (basically regenration in counter form) ... OMG, thar's so much worse ...
i love ward!!! its great to protect and its still possible to overcome, i hope they dont change it at all
that actually explains why only vihaan and obeka from OTJ interested me.
The ward sac permanents or discard cards is where it gets strong
Good timing on Gavin's video. 😂 Actually totally agree with his takes, it's a very good video.
I would really like to see a gist of saint traft adjacent card with ward.
I think Ward is a great mechanic. You can play cards that make your spell not counter able. You can also ask the table if they think the card is problem and say you want a favor if you remove it.
But I do see how if everything does have ward that will be a problem.
Ward would be fine if it had more interesting ways of paying it. Like idk, make someone sac permanents, make them tap certain kinds of creatures to prevent them attacking, make them discard cards etc or a combination of these. Like Ward 1, Discard a Card. Ward 1, Sac a Legendary Permanent or something. When you just make it a flat mana cost then it makes interactions like Roaming Throne + Voja where suddenly you need to pay 6 extra mana to target something. It's ridiculous and incredibly boring at the same time.
I think Ward in general is fine (especially at 1, maybe at 2) but should have been limited more into certain colors/color combinations. For instance, Voja having the same Ward cost as Tivit is, frankly, absurd to me. Tivit is already a powerhouse, but A: it can't swing the turn it drops, B: it costs 6 (as opposed to 5), and C: Esper is the most famous color for control effects, while Naya is not.
Thats actually why i really like the new bruse tarl ngl, he isnt crazy busted but hes got some good value in him
So instead of having to have things like shadow spear and the lighthouse land and takes away hexproof, you get a mechanic that makes it so you don't have to use card slots just for removal. Now the card you want to get rid of is like hexproof, but built in get around to it. 3 mana is nothing.
I feel like ward is a well-designed mechanic but needs one slight tune-up: it should pivot more toward the way Sauron does it, where the cost is more interactive. Otherwise, I love the concept. Forces people to think more and is a hexproof you can get around, provided you can pay the cost!
forcing a person to go through extra hoops just to go through extra hoops isn't really ideal. Giving the choice of either paying a flat mana cost or some other method to pay it and having the choice of what cost would be paid given to the owner of the ward card or the person targeting it would work better.
The Tarrasque has ward 10 and can be a commander. :)
There are 6-7 cards with ward 4 and an equipment that gives it too.
If you're sick of Hasbro/WotC, check out Sorcery Contested Realm. Its only one set a year which is perfect for busy dads like me and is a great option for a secondary TCG. Super fun, feels nostalgic for old MTG, hand painted art, cards have value, etc.
TBH I don't miss Magic at all.
I play very rarely. I am always having to look up what ward is when I see it. (most cards with it don't have the reminder text.) I recall that it's a weaker hexproof. And I'm mixed about that.
Phage has long been my favorite commander and i totally get the "a commander thats not the engine but the pay off feels like a different game"
Granted ive got my own hoops to jump through to even summon her but i like her so much more for MBC then a card like Ayara who is probably objectively better.
"Only legend with Ward in OTJ is Fblthp"
Gisa: "Am I a joke to you?"
It still somewhat worries me that Gavin assures Voja should have Ward 2 instead of 3, when it shouldn't have Ward at all.
agreed
We need the fair version of Ward and Hexproof back:
Shroud.
There are some Ward 4's floating around out there but the only one you are likely to see at a table comes from the Winged Boots.
@4:45 Doesn’t Gisa, the Hellraiser also have ward? Its also Ward 2, pay 2 life
I like ward at the moment. A previous answer to dies to doomblade by making everything a 2 for 1 was way more frustrating for me personally.
5:51 That suspicion exists because Yarok is that goodstuff commander ;)
Not sure why you think people didn't already think of ward explicitly as 'strictly worse hexproof', everyone I've ever interacted with has seen it that way haha.
At any rate, the biggest whiff for me on Ward is just tacking it on random shit being a flavor fail. Most keywords relate to a specific trait of the creature- Deathtouch creatures are poisonous or have daggers, Menace creatures are- well, menacing. But ward is often just "here's some bloke, he has ward 3 for some reason?". I think ward is at its best on black creatures- things like paying life for targeting vampires or whatever.
I've never heard another person say it. Not once.
@@PleasantKenobi how can that possibly be true 🤣 this isn’t some deep insight Gavin brought us, if you go back and look it was discussed as early as *checks notes* ah, WotC’s announcement post for the Ward mechanic.
It’s hexproof with kicker. Who was not thinking of this in relation to hexproof, ever? There’s years and years of articles on every Magic site and Reddit posts comparing them, and the common parlance has been that Ward is “fixed” hexproof in a similar way (but different reason) to how hexproof was fixed shroud.
Yeah I agree with that too - If you have a blue guy called "Countermage Adept" then I'm ok with him, you know, countering stuff. But just having random lads from any colour being Warded, that's weird.
*glances at comments*
"Ward 3+ basically = Hexproof"
"Ward that makes you sac or discard is ACTUALLY BETTER than Hexproof"
"Hexproof ACTUALLY SUX cause shadowspear exists, so Ward is better"
Seems like tons of people don't think of it or see it that way.
You forgot about another legend with ward, the new gisa, who has a triggered ability on crimes that make 2 2/2 zombies. it's so easy to commit a crime for 1 or 0 mana, unliscenced hearse, graveyard trespasser, etc.
The ward on Voja is essentially flavor text. You were likely not going to swords that dog, just to get hit by 10 elves anyway. You were going to send the Voja player back to the stone age anyway. I think people see the ability on a creature that was on a previously contentious commander Tivit and are saying the ward 3s are equal... but realistically they are not. When you wrath tivit you are always going down on card advantage, and the other players are just catching strays to remove a single threat. Where as Voja, Felix and a few of the other new ones are designed in a way where by them selves they are okay, but they are powerful with friends. Honestly, I wish Felix didn't have ward sometimes, so my Sabateurs would stop getting exiled. The real problem comes in that wraths have equally been pushed to be either 1 sided (Rift), extremely efficient (Deluge), or really oppressive (farewell).
I did find out the hard way yesterday that the new Gisa also has ward 😭
I feel like the bigger issue is that creatures these days, specially those designed for eternal formats, just have keywords stapled onto them for no reason at all and no cost. And ward is just went on the wagon. Like, why broadside bombadeers has Menace and Haste? Why Aragorn has Lifelink and Vigilance? Why Ragavan has Dash? They would just be fine and on rate withou keywords, maybe already powerful, they they just get keywords for free. Even whe we look at nich cards like the flip Vorinclex, why does he have reach? He doesn't look like he should, its not tall, its not an archer nor a spider... and It's not a limited balance issue, since its a mythic. And then there is the egregious: why the evocations have keywords? They would already be broken withou keywords.
I feel that days are past when a creature should be under rate to have a decent spread of keywords and effects, and it feels wierd as a game design choice... It limits design space.
Correction: the new Gisa also has Ward 2, pay 2 life. So her and Fblthp
Ward needs to have more creative or interesting costs attached to them for it to be interesting. Otherwise it will always be "Diet Hexproof" or "hexproof, but it came go on better creatures."
I'm not a game designer, but I always thought Sauron's "Sacrifice a legendary permanent" was a cool requirement. It's something hard, but not impossible to compliment his high cost, it requires a hard choice to be made by the person targeting, it's not just "do you pay the 2?"
I don't have as much an issue with ward as much as which creatures I see it on. Hell, give ward to weird stuff like grulnok self mill frog tribal. But Miirym, volja, Roaming throne etc are all so incredibly strong already that ward just makes them that much harder to kill. Octavia has ward 8 but I've yet to see anyone lament that.
What's your vihaan decklist
6:36 wait... you can do that? O_O
I play in a group where, they will literally save up the mana just to get through Ward.
I will keep it in say... My quick draw deck? but, I'm not going to care about it. in fact, I added a mirror shield to supplement my wing boots. because, why not?
I kind of like the idea of Ward being paired with something else that gives you another kind of advantage. again wing boots gives you Ward 4 and the flying.
I like that the legendaries of thunder junction lean more towards "unusual and interesting" more than strictly "powerful". However, the non-legendary cards definitely do the latter. There's a freaking 4 mana 6/5 trampler with no drawback that also has an activated ability in the graveyard to fetch you a land. and I thought the 3 mana 4/4 toxic creature from ONE was pushed in terms of stats per mana.