The Truth About CEDH
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- Опубликовано: 12 июн 2024
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I love cedh so much you and your friends should try it out at your next casual commander event!
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We should shorten casual edh to cEDH when talking about it
Thought about trying to work this into the vid as a joke but it just got confusing
Genuinely when I started playing EDH, I thought that’s what people called casual EDH, cEDH, it’s why I used to be so against buying any cards to improve my decks lol (have you seen them prices?)
While this is a joke, you must not realize why EDH exists and why cEDH is the proverbial "red-headed stepchild" to many of us. Casual is the reason for EDH. I'm happy cEDH exists though.
ive been doing this joke for about 4 years now: "Since so many cedh players are taking over the scene here, even at non-event tables, maybe we should make our own casual version of edh. We'll call it... Casual edh, or "cedh" for short!"
Cdh- casual
Cedh- competitive
Edh- regular
You ever drop propaganda so hard that creatures can't attack you unless their controller pays 2
I found Cedh non-tournament games nicer than Edh games. There’s no rule zero, because everything goes in Cedh. Everyone is willing to learn, zero salt as everyone choices to improve, games are super short, and misplays are so common that taking back an option on the stack is fine. Also, players in Cedh know how to threat assessment.
cEDH does have a Rule 0. It just takes that conversation to a different conclusion than EDH. The result being "we play to win". The willingness to learn, threat assessment and amount of salt involved is determined more by the people you play with, rather than the actual format. There's plenty of salt to reap in other just as competitive formats. The length of games is entirely up to preference. Take-backs are expected to be more common in Casual, as winning isn't the priority, but yeah, I don't prefer them either.
Never had any salt or anything from a c pod. People just playing the game likes it a 60card format lol
@@s.dalner7245I wouldn’t say ‘playing to win’ is a rule zero, I think that’s just the nature of any game. If someone is playing to lose, they’re just wasting everyone else’s time.
I dunno man playing against someone that actually knows how to play a stax deck is pretty salt inducing
@@Lorry_Draws "Playing to win" is a rule 0 question, because many casual EDH players dont play to win. They play to "do their thing". The actual factual winner of the game of magic does not matter in the slightest to them.
EDH is generally more fun when players have a general understanding of the power level of the decks in the game, so that they can bring a deck of similar power.
I kind of want to publish a guide for power levels. I think the issue tends to be more that people overrate their own decks rather than other players underrating theirs. That's not to say there aren't predatory gamers who lie about their decks to get wins (which is a weird thing to do when there's absolutely nothing at stake). Everyone wants to think their cool deck they put a lot of thought into is a 7, when it's probably more objectively a 4 or 5. Not a bad deck, but it just requires more setup and ideal circumstances to go off.
While I get what you’re saying at 3:28, it’s really easy to ignore what it means when people say that commander is the ‘for fun’ format… that isn’t to say that other formats aren’t fun, I’m sure the groups wouldn’t be as big as they are if it weren’t fun for them to be there. In this case, ‘for fun’ simply means ‘play whatever you want without taking matchups into account’, you build whatever is fun for you, I build whatever is fun for me, and we see who wins in a 4 player format (this just happens to be the polar opposite of every other format 😒)
Yeah I think his point was a real miss there
Casual commander being the 'for fun' format is more about the goal of the gamestate. When I play Modern with my friends, we're having fun by trying to beat each other as efficiently as possible / making the best plays available each turn, where casual commander differs is that often times it's more fun to play something that will cause a funny gamestate, and give enjoyment to all, rather than to simply make the best possible play each turn and win with efficiency.
Ryan, I agree with you. My experience with Commander was a bit unfortunate personally. If you or anyone else wants to read and tell me if it's common or what I did wrong, please go ahead.
So, I was sold Commander on the basis of "play what you want". I took the chance to try a hand control deck focused on playing discard effects to keep people's hands low on cards and using cards that punish players with a low amount of cards in hand. And some people got upset with that, and didn't want me to play that deck again.
Then, I went back to my Yu-Gi-Oh roots. Negating (or to use MTG terms, Countering) 4 spells in 2 turns isn't that uncommon for me, so I played a Blue deck with high amounts of negate. And people got upset.
So, I played a Red deck. And my favourite card in Red is Worldfire. "Exile all permanents (including lands). Exile all cards from hands and graveyards. Each player's Life total becomes 1." It's so over the top and I love it. But again, people got upset...
People got upset with me on 3 separate occasions, because I played things I wanted to play in a "play what you want" format. I was just confused and stopped trying to play Commander with these people, but I don't get why they got so upset about me playing what I wanted to play in this "play what you want" format they sold me.
@@surtrgaming1730 I wouldn’t say you did anything wrong at all. You can absolutely play what you want, however every play group has its own expectations for a game… some play groups enjoy the type of heavy interaction gameplay you’re describing… others not so much. Unfortunately there are 3 major types of playstyles that people don’t enjoy, decks that are counter/removal heavy, mill decks, and decks that try to out lands are typically not well received.. and those happen to be the decks you enjoy… the trick is to find a play group that’s good for you and your play style. If you insist on playing with this specific group (maybe they’re your friends?) then it might be a good idea to talk to them about what they dislike and try to come to a mutual middle ground going forward… although if they want to just flat out stop you from playing what you enjoy then you might be better off finding another group… no one should tell you what you can and cannot play. Being on good or friendly terms with is ideal but you can always make friends with a new play group if needed 👍
I’ve been in a few playgroups that I left because they kept getting more into the super competitive side and that wasn’t for me, I don’t mind what others play but I tend to stick around the borderline between casual and high power without making my decks hyper consistent (the main determining factor in any super competitive game) and I prefer to be in a group that is at least somewhat similar to me in that regard, nowadays it’s pretty rare for me to be dissatisfied with a game whether I win or lose, I get to just have fun playing what I want and winning sometimes and losing sometimes 😊
Counter point to playing cEDH, I want to play trashy / jank cards rather than the strongest cards in all existence. Nothing cooler than finding a common / rare card that perfectly fits your build to stay on theme / goal of the deck.
you can still do that in cEDH. there's some wiggle room in meta decks
@@ry7hymmuch less wiggle room than casual
You can. Don't expect to win with those, but you can have fun while accepting the fact you won't win most of the time.
@@massx999i mean, technically there's all the wiggle room you want, you're just gonna lose
@@DanielCotillo So playing a non-competitive deck in a competitive format? Isn't that what casual games are for?
You forgot about a very important archetype in cEDH: Midrange. (since cEDH is in midrange hell right now)
I would consider midrange and control interchangeable in cEDH
I don't understand why everyone is calling it "Midrange Hell". Like, do you want things to be dominated by slow control/stax or have every person present wins on turn 2/3? I love the midrange meta.
@@SDTCG I generally prefer midrange style games, and have always felt competitive ends of tcg spectrums have mostly had a criminal lack of midrange viability due to not being able to out pace aggro nor having the power to breakthrough/prevent control while still maintaining their midrange status
@@SDTCG i think the hell has to do with the stagnation war of attrition based around whoever lands a mystic remora, or a rhystic study or a turn 1 kraum while orcish bowmaster players shoot all the dorks and let the blue farm player win the game.
@@moshjoshpitchief4418 Yea but if the OBM player is pinging dorks while blue farm has a draw engine then that's the OBM player's fault, not the blue farm player's. They should be hitting the blue farm player to limit their Ad Naus or Necropotence lines. Ultimately I think the biggest problem in cEDH is greedy players and poor threat assessment. The decks that do well are the ones who can punish that.
I don't like boring magic, that is, a powerlevel where magic cards feel like junk made for draft. They rarely allow to brew interesting interactions.
But I don't like the highest power competitive environment either, because it makes a whole lot of interesting interactions too slow to be included into any deck.
Most interesting magic, in my opinion, happens in-between "my decks is birds" and "cEDH".
Higher power casual is a fun way to take a break from the play/build perfect nature of CEDH. I like high power magic that has combos and interaction too but I don’t always wanna play the same few lines.
We just need smogon tiers for edh. So cEDH is basically ubers and you get to know what to expect based on the experice you are after but faster
Empty Shrine Kannushi is usually played in Mono-White Initiative decks for the mirror, in which it's a virtually impossible to remove threat that can both use it's protection to steal the Initiative and protect it.
While I believe Argentum Masticore is played in Shops, because honestly you can slam any artifact in Shops and it won't look too unreasonable, but it's particularly good at destroying anti artifact staxs pieces (Nullrod / Collector Ouphe) while still fitting the decks constraints of being an artifact that you can use a Workshop to power out.
Thank you! I was dying of curiosity.
God bless, I had to know
When people say edh is”for fun” they aren’t saying cedh isn’t “for fun”. What they mean is cedh prioritizes winning above all else, while edh prioritizes “fun.” And by fun they mean “this deck holds to a certain theme, wins a certain way, and works at a fair pace.”
Nobody’s saying cedh isn’t fun. Just that cedh has different values. The fun is in winning, or in trying to win. Not in “let’s make this strategy work.”
And i dont think that its true either. Its all up to the players, not the format.
Idk, I’d say cedh is for fun, just goes about it in a different way. While casual *might* be about building a jank deck and having fun that way, cedh *might* be about figuring out the best possible ways to win quickly, and building your deck almost like a puzzle to solve. Another point is that the gameplay is completely, and I mean completely, different between the two, which makes it fun for almost everyone playing it as they try and navigate everyone board states, who has counter magic up, etc.
Exactly.
Cedh's "fun is in winning, or in trying to win. Not in “let’s make this strategy work.” " . This was worded perfectly!! A lot of people who play cedh decks are very dishonest about this and try guilt casual players. Of course winning is nice but not everyone is trying to win at all costs, there's joy is seeing how you or your friend's decks work and pop-off, you know that they would never work in a competitive setting but thats okay. The entry barrier into to Magic seems to be getting higher and higher with every new set release because of prices and power creep so the guilt tripping that edh players get is frustrating because its a lot easier for someone who can build cedh decks to make an edh one versus the other way around.
@@zamangwanezikhali1052 People build jank in CEDH all the time. There is a level of enjoyment that can be found in trying to make and seeing an offbrand strategy work in a harsh, challenging environment.
CEDH's appeal isn't about wanting to win at all costs. It's an environment with very clear expectations and not having to deal with the awkwardness of unclear social boundaries. If everyone is agreeing to play CEDH, then no punches are pulled, no social expectations are held, no one is going to complain about what you put in your deck or what cards you play or include.
I've had much easier social experiences in CEDH than in most games of casual EDH because I don't have to explain why I have to remove a threat or someone trying to guilt trip me into not doing an efficient play or why I'm running a strategy. Heck, the only time I've had a table literally yell at me and tell me to stop playing is at the "casual" tables who never communicated they didn't like flash creatures.
The biggest takeaway from this (and a lot of your videos) is casual players need to run way more removal
“Always has be..”
You're not wrong.
Removal doesnt help when someone starts with fast mana before youve gotten a chance to play a land.
@@vileluca okay but in cedh everyone has the fast mana hence the proxies
This is why the removal is usually 0 or 1 mana interaction. But also at most casual tables you don’t “need” the removal till a few turns later so it’s more about having enough to consistently have access to the removal by turn 4 or 5 ish
Kinnan is actually one of the top decks in the format and gets around a lot of the complaints people have! Some decks even get to run expensive fatties like Void Winnower. There is definitely variety in cEDH it's just slightly commander dependent.
Counterpoint: I want to play high powered commander without fast mana and broken cards like dockside, thoracle, breach, etc. Right now that's basically impossible. There's a big void between "level 7" commander and cEDH. I think that's what peope complain about. Sure, other things would trickle up as the most poweful but maybe not *every* deck would have to run blue because you wouldn't need free counterspells on turn 3 to prevent the combo player from going off.
I am 100% planning on making another vid about this. Give me a month or something
magic is a fun game. edh is a way to have fun. all formats are ways to have fun, at their hearts. cedh is a constructed format where the fun is in winning no matter the method to do so, and can then be a puzzle that the table helps solve (or so i've heard about friendly tables of it). casual edh is a format where the fun is *having your deck do a thing in a certain way*. this is meant to be a different social experience, but is still meant to be fun. i don't want my definition to be misunderstood - casual edh is still played to be won, but that's technically not the primary goal - it's to "do the thing". if that thing ends up causing a win, that's fine, but your primary goal was the journey, not the destination.
I find that I have more fun in CEDH pods because everyone is on the same page, power level wise. The sliding scale of casual to competitive in commander is a chasm, and that leaves a lot of room for misinterpretation of power levels.
My favorite part of cEDH is that the lack of Rule Zero and in-it-to-win-it mentality means I get to be really mean and watch my friends be really mean. Making plays that are the Magic equivalent of kicking a puppy (i.e. flashing in a Bowmasters with a Wheel of Fortune on the stack) is what I live for. Plus, the fact that I can play the new Etali and be able to get the big dino out turn 3 is really satisfying to my inner Timmy.
IMO, Mean is playing beamtown bullies/Lightpaws over and over and focusing down one player every single time out of spite or running 40 removal/control spells and focusing someone down even when someone else is going to win without intervention. Using bowmasters on a wheel of fortune is simply good play. It lets you dominate the board or chunk someone who's been playing while using their life total. That's for an advantage, not to be mean.
The flow of the video is seamless.
Oh trust me. there's plenty of salt even when people refuse to do rule zero.
Cedh has a "rule zero", so to speak. It's so well known there's no need to explain it.
Yeah, the idea that cEDH doesn't come with any salt just because there's better expectations about what a game will look like going in (due to it being a different format, I will die on this hill) is laughable.
@@varsoonhks3211 ya, as if there's no salt in modern tornaments.
My Best deck with the best Win ratio is Breya. However I vividly remember a buddy of mine going off turn 1 with a Food chain set up where he said: " If you guys don't do anything I win next turn" and I hadn't even played a land 😂😂😂
Ah yes, Breya, Etherium Shaper. The one commander that demands Lions Eye Diamond to function. There are a handful of commander options that can achieve winning on turn one including every deck with access to Dimir colors as the Thassa's Oracle combo realistically only requires access to one black mana and two blue mana and having two specific cards in your hand, or an additional any mana if Tainted Pact instead of Demonic Consultation. Also, players don't play Food Chain like that unless their asking to lose.
@@MageSkeleton Yeah, he didn't win actually. But I remember being so scared 😂😂😂
I recently joined a cedh pod on Untap and it is super fun. No salt, just strong and intelligent play. And when a storm deck wins on turn 2 good for them. I will get them next time
One of my formative magic experiences was going to gencon in 2003 since I lived in Indianapolis at the time and wanting to enter a magic tournament, but since my only constructed deck was kitchen table jank using cards going back to Urza's block I realized that the only constructed tournament I could enter was Type 1 since it didn't have a restriction on what sets were allowed. I was essentially playing casual vintage against people with Black Lotus and turn 1 storm kills.
Brother saying a format is "For fun" is not implying that it is the only format where poeple are having fun.
Saying a format is "For fun" implies that the overarching goal is not strictly to defeat your opponent, but rather to strive towards a balance of mutual enjoyment in an inherently imbalanced and flawed format.
tbf the thoracle player usually solves themselves with their own esper sentinel or talion. totally not speaking from experience or anything. xD
Lol, the difference between "may draw" and "draw." Saw someone doing the combo lose to their own Kraum commander trigger.
cEDH is not a format, it's a style of players. There are no cEDH decks, there are cEDH players. If a friend wants to test in my group a deck highly tune for maximum winning chance we will allow it at least one time, for fun.
No, cEDH is a power level, there are cEDH decks, and trying to claim otherwise is laughable
I think people who say casual is for fun are people like me who don't enjoy cEDH. It's not what I want to do, which is why I play EDH. If you press a little deeper, they would probably agree that people obviously find it fun, but that they don't. I think it's more accurate to say casual is the fun first format and cEDH is all about winning. I can agree to an extent that the claim your making about the myth of cEDH if you compare it to modern meta vs kitchen table modern. Do they both technically play in the same format? Yes, but could you win a tourney with a casual modern deck? No. So why bother building your 60 card casual deck to fit a format? Why not just build what interests you and play it casually? Kitchen table 60 card is almost an entirely separate format from any of the other 60 card formats. As far as casual formats go, EDH was designed specifically for casual. This is the opposite and this is why cEDH is a separate format. It may never have a separate banlist, but it's very possible that it could in the near future.
I'm three minutes into the video, and I can say with absolute certainty:
I'm a cEDH player, and I'm very certain I don't think I'm wrong about cEDH.
Seriously though, I'm glad you took the time to make this video, and definitely looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Love your work!
Loved it!
And as a stax-player, myself, I can agree that stax is in a difficult place right now. Surprisingly, it's because the meta is healthy, which I think is a great thing for the community as a whole, so I still consider it a win in my book.
Instead I've found myself only playing stax decks that can survive in a healthy meta, and even then I can't expect to be able to stop everything. There's just too much going on these days to be able to do that.
I also agree on the brewer's paradise bit. It's surprising just how much room for expression there is in cEDH once you've got a good idea of what you need in decks to make them be able to survive long enough to be able to do the thing.
Cheers, man!
Completely wrong on the "rule 0" part. Playing cEDH is agreeing to a set of expectations on the table.
"Rule 0" isn't arguing that your deck is a seven. That's just trying to meta the meta (and failing to adress the point).
Rule 0 is making sure players' expecations are set. Downplaying to pubstomp is failing that part. cEDH is just one preset set of expectations.
Either you are misrepresenting what is rule 0, or you don't even get what it is.
Maybe I should’ve said no rule 0 conversation? End result is the same right? In cEDH there is no rule zero of hey no playing this deck or no playing this card. I know that’s not all rule zero, but for this video about cEDH it’s all that is relevant
I'm so thankful that my best bud and I managed to find 2 other players to get a weekly consistent cedh pod to fire at our lgs, and through that more people have seen us play, and have gotten very curious about our games
You can get any deck you want for $5 at the library. The printer is available. *nods sagely*
Just don't enter any tournaments without talking to the judge first lol.
In any multiplayer format with more than 2 sides, victory is less about playing the game than playing the players. I find it weird to hear about "competitive" EDH where victory is determined more by your skill at diplomacy than Magic.
Exactly my thoughts! How multiplayer can be competitive? When you can sit out the counterspell crossfire/negotiate with oppos, and than combo off in a right moment.
EDH is a format about slonkin' fat bong rips and drinking Buds with a group of friends while you all bullshit around the most durdled boardstate to ever exist.
@@varsoonhks3211 and that's certainly fine, but sometimes I want a more productive and less mind numbing game
Looking at the titled from a non-Magic perspective would be hilarious - The Truth about CEDH - what does cedh even mean to non-Magic players?
Oh yea this is not for a player new to mtg…
While i get what you mean, whats your point here? You also go under gun channels to ask "What does M16 EVEN MEAN LUL" ? xD
@@ich3730 I've never seen a gun video... I don't know what M16 means either... obviously I do know what cEDH means I have a cEDH deck.
I was making a joke (And a commentary on Magic: the Gathering lexicon)
The Truth Abouth Chickens Eating Dead Horses 😂
@@brendans1983 I see (Wait the chickens ate my eyes help meeeeeee
This is a very well thought out argument that I pretty much agree with wholeheartedly, and yet, it doesnt make pushing up into CEDH any more appealing. For my pod and I, and basically everyone I've met who enjoys the format, Commander is the format where we get to flex creative muscles and silly pet cards that have no home. We have formats like Modern and Pioneer that are excellent competitive outlets that dont come with the same built in hiccups that edh bakes into its rules set.
I've been trying to tell people this for so long. I'm glad I can now just send them a video instead of sitting stumbling while explaining cEDH to people.
Just tell your friends "The more consistent your deck is, the more competitive it is."
This channel is great I won't lie. You give a very different perspective than other, perhaps more sensationalized videos on magic. Additionally, you explain things in ways that make some more niche, or scary concepts much more approachable and easily parsed. Glad I found it.
6:24 dude by this logic we wouldn't have to ban anything anywhere because something would always rise up to fill the void. What?
Well this logic works for commander, because they supposedly don’t ban on power level. If you only ban stuff that makes games ‘unfun’, then you can leave the most powerful stuff on the table as long as it doesn’t fit the ‘unfun’ criteria
well you just point out the Rules Committee cause like it or not the ban list was never meant to be a consistent way to maintain a healthy meta
That's literally his point
Because the edh ban list is for fun not competition so they don’t ban on power supposedly. Based on the RC’s guidelines you can argue nothing should be banned and cEDH would still be cEDH
Just another bad faith cope argument.
this reminds me, I need to work on my Hewlett Packard theme deck
I think some of the reasoning in your second half further proves why cEDH is a different format. The fact that it's a narrow pool of cards and you know what to expect and there's no salt as a result. Personally, I think casual pods could use more of a set of guiding principles for the current match. To remove the salt and make for more fun and balanced matches. It's tricky doing this, but I'm hoping to come up with an answer for how
I think that cEDH is about speed and consistency of the deck and their value engine, fast land, multiple draw, tutor, mana rock. While other than 5 mana on turn 2 is just high power deck.
Nice video. Well said and explained. I used to play cEDH around 2 years ago and unfortunately the meta just wasn’t for me. I hope some players give it a chance.
I specifically played Kenrith Hermit Druid even got it onto the database though I’m sure it’s been moved by now.
Petition to call the cast for free with your commander cycle the lieutenant spell cycle.
I was thinking the exact same thing lol
The best rule of Commander is to adjust the game to whatever works best for everyone in your group. My group allows proxies because one of us loves making proxies and we want the game to be accessible to anyone who wants to join us. We usually have at least 8 running 2 games and occasionally all 12 of us are available to play so we run 3 games theres always at least 1 group of people who want to play more competitively so they get the chance to do so because we make it easier for people to join us. Our mulligan is drawing 7 each time but putting back the other cards like draw 7 keep 6 draw 7 keep 5 etc. CEDH is fun sure I enjoy it occasionally but at the end of the day it's a format best played in whatever way is most enjoyable for you and your group
Sometimes, you find people who only finds "enjoyment" playing the game via "Watch me win the game and don't do anything to disrupt what i'm doing until i draw what i want to win the game with as my ability to "draw a card" is only the draw step of each turn." And making this person "upset" that they didn't get to win the game, they tell their friends lies about you and suddenly your being reported for things you never did. i wish i was joking.
I appreciate a more nuanced discussion for cEDH (I'm also real tired of hearing people call decks that just happened to land on a turn 4-5 combo win a cEDH deck as well), but I don't think its helpful to pretend cEDH isn't against the "spirit" of EDH. If people don't believe me there is an official philosophy of commander which clearly states the purpose of EDH is to create a social format with broad range of playable cards and a reduced emphasis on competitive wins. cEDH is a great format but its definitely its own offshoot with its own metas and strategies and goals.
I do also find it funny with the popularity of EDH and cEDH's use of proxies, cEDH is probably the most friendly and easy to access competitive MTG format.
cEDH is just EDH but everyone knows what the rule 0 is: no banned cards, consistent win on turn 3, all the fast mana (those 3 questions are all you need to play with strangers, everything else can be discussed after the first game)
I ended up building tymna/jeska for my first cEDH deck and i really enjoy playing at that power level. Its just frustrating when i think im playing a casual deck and get blown out against another “casual” deck
At one point in time I discussed an idea with my friends about formalizing the “deck power level” classification of EDH decks. The idea was to use a similar system to smogon/showdon for pokemon, where usage rates dictate meta viability, and a group of informed players can further suggest specific “bans” in their specific tier and the community as a whole can weigh in. This works in Pokemon and I believe it would work in most magic formats. The reason it works is, to roughly wuote Freezai, “Because we assume most people play to win, so the best options get picked the most often.”
In Pokemon singles on smogon, this is roughly true. In a lot of magic formats, I’d say this is roughly true. In commander, I don’t think this would at all reflect the actual viability of cards. If you look at the difference in the edhrec rank of a card vs how viable it is in cEDH, you’ll see that there SOME overlap, but not nearly as much as you’d need to say that you can look at a cards play rate to roughly estimate its power.
While that’s the case for the EDH format as a whole, I don’t believe that’s as true for cEDH. I think if you looked at cEDH decks and tried to compare the usage rates of specific cards or strategies to their power, I believe you’d see a much stronger relationship between the two.
This, to me, shows a fundamental difference in deck building and play-style. It’s what makes EDH a “for fun” format, and what makes cEDH not a “for fun” format (even if people do in fact have fun playing it).
Interesting I do really like how smogon handles bans and it does make the formats feel pretty balanced. Though I’m not sure it really translates to mtg in the same way. I see your point though!
i feel like this was a long winded way of saying "the more consistent, the more competitive." After all, no one would use incenaroar like they do if he didn't fill such an important role. And players played Groudon or Kyogre when it was a free "Primal" super pokemon versus any other option to run along side their Mega Rayquaza. And your NOT bringing Quagsire when you could use Groudon or Kyogre.
Please be nice to Vintage. You could proxy up some decks for that format and have a pretty great time too!
I’m just joking about vintage I’m sure the format is fine!
I think one of the main things that keeps me from cEDH is the first player winrate problem. You make a point to mention how cEDH is not like vintage in that the first player basically always wins, but from a quick search it appears that in ~40% of games the first player wins, which in a 4 player format is a monster of a win rate. That is about double the win rate of each other player. It just doesn’t sound fun to play in a format where a roll of the dice dictates who is twice as likely as everyone else to win. I also feel like this is a problem that would just get worse the more inexperienced the players, since I know mulliganing by seat is a big skill in cEDH.
Where are you getting a 40% win rate from? From what I've seen, that's generally not the case for who wins in cEDH. It's usually determined by the quality of the hands. How much interaction they have, How much fast mana, tutors, etc.
A cataclysmic opinion threatening the very foundation of this format. I strongly disagree that this is a concern we can afford to ignore.
Of COURSE there are cards that are unhealthy for the game. This is not a slippery slope argument, and framing it that way betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of game design and what players are wanting out of their experience.
thank you! many a cEDH player is interested in playing magic at the highest level. I think that is why we make a distinction of being a pilot moreso that being the person who built a list moreso than other formats. Many of us are not even concerned about being the winner moreso than did I pilot this deck/list the best that I could have in this given situation.
Wait, what's rule zero in EDH? I think people around me skipped that part.
I was sold EDH on a "play what you want basis", so I went to build a hand control type deck that focused on discarding cards from peoples hands and cards that would then punish opponents for having a low amount of cards in their hand. People got angry, and I got confused. But, I accepted to not build that deck.
So, I went to my Yu-Gi-Oh roots and played a Kess deck with like 15 interruptions in it, most of them being a "Counter target X". Some people were having trouble understanding that yes, this was the deck I wanted to play in the "play what you want" format.
But, they explained that I should probably play a less good deck to be around the same power as the other. I tried my best, as I had like a total of barely 25 hours of MTG experience, 20 of which were 8 years before learning what EDH was. So, I built a somewhat slow Red deck. I put a 9 mana card in it, because I loved how Overkill it was, even tho it wasn't good. I got to resolve Worldfire, and people got angry again. And I was still confused
Where did I mess up?
Disagree with 2 major points. The first is “why ban cards if other cards replace them?” Surely you realize this is an argument against ban lists in general. There are some strategies that are both too meta defining and unfun. 2nd point, Vintage games don’t end on turn 1 for the same reason cedh games don’t end on turn 1. Free interaction
This argument makes sense everywhere except CEDH. Cards aren't banned in commander for power balance reasons. The point of commander is to allow any and all cards. His point was that 13:00 CEDH will still be CEDH with or without targeted bans that would also screw with more casual games.
I’ve never been bitched at for winning a cEDH game, but boy have I have been bitched at for casual. I got bitched at the other day for using someone else’s Braids to drop Niv Parrun, and lucked into a curiosity. Blue group hug ramped me out of control, and I’m an asshole for running with it
If they see you running Niv and they don't save instant speed removal to 2 for 1 you when you cast your combo, that's their problem
@@sarahbuck2506 right?! What am supposed to do, not run a win con?!
I love playing Armageddon in all EDH format please don't judge me its my pet card. ❤
My one deck I want to build is probably in the "fringe cEDH" range, which is absolutely fine with me. Commanders are Dargo/Tevesh and it's very much an all-in combo deck aiming to get out a Phyrexian Altar/Thermopod and a couple "ritual dorks" or treasures, sac them, cast Dargo, then loop Dargo for payoffs
I have a magda brazen outlaw deck that I love to play but even after taking clock of omens out, still overperforms with my play group so I don't play it often. I've been considering lately constructing it more towards CEDH but I always thought the format would be too competitive for my taste. This video has me thinking it's actually more casual than I initially thought so maybe I'll give it a try
if you max out the power of magda you can have a blast playing cedh!
You should go for it! cEDH players get a reputation for being sweaty, but that's only in big tournaments (which is true of every format). But if you play with friends or go to small locals tournaments it's super chill and everyone has a good time. Way less salt than casual pods with strangers in my personal experience.
Honestly this is one of my favorite videos you've done! I enjoy both casual and cEDH and it always bothers me how people misunderstand (and sometimes misrepresent) what cEDH is all about, and I think you captured it well. From reading some of these comments tho I hope people give the video another watch because the intent here was clearly to promote cEDH and not to bash on others' tastes.
I enraged some gatherers once by playing Tree of Perdition.
The table had mixed opinions and that was cool. It actually sparked a discussion about EDH.
I don't want to learn or keep up with a meta. I don't want to play or see the same good cards. Good for people who do, and I play Pauper for that, but for me casual commander is for not thinking too hard and being surprised. I just don't care enough about getting good.
That’s totally fine! Nothing wrong with casual edh I love casual commander!
CEDH is how I felt when syncro and xyrd summons were introduced into YuGiOh. The powercreep on cards are becoming notoriously harder to deal with. A card 12 years ago wrote something like this. "Pay A Red and 1 of any, return a land from your field to your hand and a land from your opponent's field to their hand." While not overly powerful for a 2 mana it still has some utility if you pair it with other cards. If I were to reprint that same card in today's climate, it would read something like this. "Pay A red and X. Return 1 land you control to your hand, for each mana paid exile X lands from opponents field. Additionally, if you paid 5 or more total opponent must exile 5 cards from the top of their library. If opponent exiles a land, you may play that land this turn. Also, this card has flashback 3. Fuck you."
They dont make cards with downsides anymore :/
Should have ended it with "Also this card has fuck you 3"
Better punchline
This implies these same cards aren't being played in "casual" environments, when they are.
Please explain legacy sideboards?!
Thanks for reminding me that Argentum Masticore is still in standard, gonna build a deck around that good boy
Love you, Trinket. Your videos are amazing and have greatly helped my deckbuilding skills.
I’m happy to hear that!
CEDH like commander is another format in MTG, just like pauper commander is another format.
CEDH has its own meta, aka what group of cards yields the best results most often.
Everyone I have talked to says that CEDH is its own format. A typical optimized commander deck can sit down with a CEDH, but it will move at a different pace.
Its like trying to say that marathon running is the same thing as sprinting, or relay races, even though all three are running they are subcategories, and they require their own techniques, training, and style.
Edit: your example of flash and Iona are actually perfect examples of why they are actually two seperate formats.
If I wanted to play a format where anything goes, all archetypes exist and combos are the default way to win, why would I go through the trouble of playing a 100 card singleton multiplayer clown fiesta of a format?
Like, legacy exists, it's a really fun and balanced format and you can sideboard and do bo3.
But legacy events are usually sanctioned by wizards so you actually need to pay up and own those dual lands. Which means most players can’t afford legacy
@@thetrinketmage There are plenty of cheap and strong legacy decks, it's a common misconception that you need duals or fow to play legacy.
And if we're talking about mtgo, legacy is dirt cheap. FoW is like 10 tix lmao.
@@thetrinketmage Every commander player says then and then shows me their 5 foiled out commander decks and their giant box filled with 10 more commander decks. The poor cope needs to stop. Y'all just wanna play a board game, not MTG.
@@garak55 the mtgo argument is correct but if I wanted to play in paper, then a proxy cEDH deck will always be way cheaper
@@avatarofcloud what? I’m not saying I personally could never afford legacy nor that my commander decks are cheap. I’m just saying proxies are a cheap option for players
Economy beats defense beats rush beats economy
i like playing my pet cards and cedh essentially disallow that.
"pushes up glasses" actually 30 Islands and 30 forests is a vintage deck. the most expensive format in magic.
I think this video misses an important piece. The video is very critical of casual players. There is a large part of the cEDH community that gets almost insulted when you try to explore the meta. If its a deck or even a card they have never seen they often have this, "you think youre smarter then the meta" attitude. My favorite part of playing in any format is trying to explore different spaces within the meta. I actually love cEDH but I think it too has major flaws and is prohibitive of creativity.
I think there are two big things that hold me back from truly trying cEDH:
1. Two of my favorite colors to play - green and white - are basically non-factors in cEDH. What few decks that run either color - Kinnan, Kenrith, Najeela, Thrasios, et cetera - feel like they only run a small handful of green or white cards and would be vastly improved with the quality of their cards if they were not obligated to run those colors. To use Kinnnan as an example, from what lists I see online the deck would be vastly improved in terms of meaningful win conditions if it swapped access to red or black or went full mono-blue rather than being shackled to green to find a win condition that could win in a timely fashion. Don't even get me started on how much commanders like Yasharn or Sythis have fallen off competitively.
2. The stack interactions that take place in cEDH - which based on the quote you brought up in the video is a huge draw for cEDH - stresses me out something fierce. As someone who has recently identified having a very difficult time playing against Spellslinger-style archtypes, I get really stressed at the kinds of counter-wars that tend to happen frequently at the highest levels of play. I think it mainly has to do with feeling responsible for not being able to stop these strategies no matter what I play and feeling like I wasted people's time by not bringing a faster deck that could keep up.
Maybe I am off base in my assessments, but I would be interested to hear if my thoughts are unique to my own experiences or if other cEDH players feel the same way.
White is the second best color in the format rn though
@@archdruidman3493 Is it? I thought Kinnan, Najeela, and Blue Farm were dominant?
I mean, Heliod is kind of a one-trick pony with Walking Ballista and Oswald barely ever gets talked about.
Even the commanders that do run white - like Tymna, Najeela, or Sissay - don't seem to care all that much about the white cards they play compared to the combo lines that need to execute on to close games down.
(pssst its a shite format, play anything else, this video is propaganda)
I agree that it is impossible to cleanly separate edh and cedh the way one can separate modern and edh. However, in the same way one can separate combo decks and control decks one can separate "casual" and "competitive" by how the deck is intended to function.
The lack of rule zero is one of competive commander's greatest strength. The no holds barred battle of wits without the ambiguity of what cards are 'soft banned' by rule zero.
Whereas in casual commander rule zero is its greatest strength because it allows as much diversity as an individual player wants. The decks that are playable are not limited the by meta and anti-meta decks. That same frustrating ambiguity creates space to try everything which I personally want to do in a format where nearly every is legal.
I'm glad we both have ways to enjoy magic even if what we want from the game is different.
casual edh is for fun, while competitive edh is for glory
This skitarii absolutely knows what he's talking about. Big advocate of just referring to Cedh decks as meta decks. I wish all of the locals in my area weren't doing Commander tournaments though. Really takes away from that casual part of the format
No salt until you play mana maze in your Urza deck and all blue deck players go brrrrrr
Is that adeptus mechanicus as your mascot/figure ?
Yea, or at least it’s inspired by that. All the art is done by a friend of mine, link is in the description
If by 'misunderstood' you mean "doesn't give a rat's tuckus about nerds forcing a casual format into a highly competitive mode", then yes, I agree with you.
I think the biggest discrepancy comes from the word "casual". Casual just means soooooo many things.
I heard guys sayin: "Casual means that I don't try to win with the deck", "casual means that I eat cheeseburgers while playing", "casual is anything under power level 8"....
Casual means wanting to get a chance to play the gimmick of your deck and you dont mind if you lose.
Fantastic explanation as always! Personally, I love cEDH and the midrange meta is something I find very enjoyable.
i feel like i have so much to say, i wish i could had been someone to had helped you with the script for this video. However, i am not as knowledgeable on the Cedh scene as i used to and i'm working with old information with educated guesses. First of all, if i hear "proxy friendly" that means someone who brings a "dual land" that's written in sharpie over a basic land should be acceptable. i used "helper cards" as they were cheap, and gave a nice blank field to write on. i mainly got into playing Commander through my LGS (many years ago) and they exclusively gathered to play a "tournament" with prizes on the line. They did not accept the use of any proxies unless you could prove you own an OG WotC copy of the card.
Once upon a time, there was a clear delineation between what defined Casual Commander and Competitive Commander play, and it was so identifiable you knew who was most likely in the Competitive play based on their commander choice. In todays times, Wizards of the Coast has been printing cards and reprinting cards such that "casual" commander players are gaining "tools" allowing them to compete with Competitive players such that the difference between the two had to be more specifically defined. The more consistent your deck was, the more competitive it is. And it's difficult to judge such consistency to assign a number to it but possible.
K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth and The Gitrog Monster [and please if you want to play Cedh do not play The Gitrog Monster if your learning to play more competitively] are NOT "anti CEDH" commander options, they are known as the most popular competitive commander options. i feel that K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth especially gets the "short end of the stick" because of how popular he is, everyone has a deck with him as commander and i wanna say most of them are terrible piles of cards, but i digress.
Thank you for your time reading all this, i really REALLY tried to keep it short but i needed to convey what i want to say. i believe i know really good "introduction to competitive" stuff allowing players to play on a budget but that would require me to learn how to put together a youtube video and do my own stuff. i may get there eventually.
But there is still a difference between "competitive play" and "casual play" and every format has both.
So are we getting a video about vintage sideboards? Because I really want to know lol
When I find a billionaire who will loan me a deck I’ll play vintage and report back
Anything is possible! Maybe they'll read these comments and want to collab! Fingers crossed!
@@thetrinketmage You can play for free on Cockatrice! ;P
I understand what you're saying but i can't say i agree with everything. One counterpoint i'd like to bring up in regards to the spirit of the format is that it was intended to be a place where you could take your janky cards that you find cool but don't really fit in any competitive environments, and that ideally gives decks a lot of expressive power, because you can play a pile of cards that you really enjoy and no other person will have a list even remotely similar to that. Now, i will concede that recently that style of deckbuilding has fallen majorly out of favour with how well-constructed precons are nowadays and through the influence of online commander personalities changing the notion of what a game of commander should be: most casual commander decks are also quite explosive nowadays. The main point i would like to make is that commander was intended as a home for non-competition and non-competitive cards, where everyone just kind of durdles around for a bit and enjoys the laid back environment and friendly banter, specifically because not everyone always wants to have highly competitive games with the same staples over and over again. That's also why i don't like cEDH, because the staple cards are just boring, and seeing the same combo over and over again, or even combo wins in general, kind of sucks the personality out of the game. I don't like playing the most powerful cards, i just wanna do my funny thing, winning is very low down on my list of priorities.
Both card diversity and color diversity would be addressed by a cedh specific banlist. Conquest has the most reasonable banlist I've seen for a commander format
I disagree with a few things in this video. First, about the whole regular EDH is about fun then is cEDH not fun? Because cEDH isn't inherently about having fun. It's about winning. If you don't play cEDH to win then even if you got a cEDH deck you're not playing cEDH IMO. Now that is not to say that cEDH can't be fun I'm sure it is a lot of fun, but the main point of the game is to win, not to come to the table with a deck of cards and make the whole table cackle like Ben Brode did during EP 37 of Commander at home, I'm not gonna spoil what it is but that deck is just hilarious and could never be made at a cEDH table. And that I think is kinda the point of the whole EDH is about fun and cEDH isn't about fun point people make. Fun isn't the primary reason for having a deck, because winning is, why else would you make a cEDH deck?
The other thing I'll disagree with is the need for cEDH and EDH to be split because I personally think they do need to be split. Entirely because the two formats have two different needs. Like you said when Flash was banned most casual players just went. "Huh?" while the cEDH crowd didn't bat an eyelid at Iona, Shield of Emeria being banned because it didn't affect them, however, because of how many cards there are in Magic, and with how much is being released, that likely there is going to come a day when a card might need to be banned for EDH or cEDH and it's going to affect the other side of the spectrum negatively. By having two separate ban lists you can moderate both for what's best for them. Golos being banned for EDH is definitely a good choice, while Golos might be a neat cEDH commander, granted I don't play cEDH so I don't know if that is actually a good idea but it gets my point across I think.
Overall though a good video here. While I'm not gonna play cEDH because it's not my cup of tea, but its always nice to get insight into the format~
Cedh is about having fun. Being " for fun " or " for the win " isnt a characteristic intrinsic of the format, but it depend on the player mindset
@@vittoriosavian9964 Yes but the fun comes from playing to win. Because winning is its own kind of fun. That's what generally competitive games are all about. You don't rock up to the cEDH table with a meme deck with 97 wastes, even if that deck can be fun and silly. It's not the kind of fun that should be at a cEDH table. Meanwhile, that silly 97 wastes meme deck could rock up to a casual table and be fun if you end up saying just how many lands you have in the deck and people might just laugh at how silly it is.
I'm not saying cEDH can't be fun. The fun in cEDH comes from the competitive aspect of it while the rest of EDH can be all over the spectrum. Again check out that episode of Commander at home I mentioned and you'll see what I mean.
Sigh, shut up. What is cEDH and EDH and Legacy and every other format? They’re formats in a magic GAME. And motherfucka, it’s called a game because it’s supposed to be played for FUN (unless you in some freaky saw shit). So stop saying it ain’t about fun when it categorically falls under a definition that implies having fun
@@Nidrog its not winning. Its improving. 2 different things
@@vittoriosavian9964 If cEDH wasn't about winning the format wouldn't focus on building the strongest decks possible. It wouldn't focus on making sure they can win and prevent others from winning. cEDH players can play to improve and play to have fun. None of that is mutually exclusive. But the main point always has been. Always will be winning. Because you build the strongest deck you can for cEDH.
2:32 my playgroup plays casual modern and it’s so good. Really worth giving a try. (General guidelines we use are: an agro deck could win by turn 5 if their opponent does nothing and decks use b-tier removal like Mortify). A tibalt deck. (The 2 mana one) is actually not only viable, but genuinely scary in our environment, even when I powergame within these restrictions. It’s wild.
Getting my friends into cedh was awesome. As a non-proxy guy I just slowly buy the duals and other pricey stuff I need over time. I mostly play rog-so, talion, krik, zur, urza, and now nadu.
Forgot to add Stella Lee. That being said I have tons of regular commander decks to play mostly tribal or commanders I just love.
local stores around here dont allow proxies for their edh tournaments, so... yeah that's where im at right now lol
Sorry to hear that. Do they actually get players? And is it real cEDH or just high power stuff
@@thetrinketmage lots of local magic players, and people willing to make the drive, so the place is almost always packed whenever events are on.
Also, the events are actual cedh (whose meta im currently not a fan of: stax is essentially dead and almost everyone plays a form of farm. Too many "you did a thing so I draw a card" effects in the format)
I like powerful and weird. My favorite deck is an Ivy Graceful Spellthief deck that clones her as many times as possible and then wins off infectious bite or Venerated Rot Priest. Hitting the entire table for 12,000 poison counters is a VERY funny way to get stabbed.
Well if CEDH is about trying to win (or preventing someone to win) on turn 3, then I guess casual EDH should be renamed "slow EDH", where you would ban most accelerators (two card combos and fast manas) and where most win would be around turn 8 or so through mean that seem at least more fair (Craterhoofs, Torment of Hailfire, Expropriate and such).
My LGS doesn't allow proxies for edh or cedh.
Wizards needs to print a cheap mass land, creature and artifact sweeper in order for it to see play in cedh. That used to be Upheaval, and that got banned
This perspective seems to be more common from players who weren't around EDH was newer, at least in my experience. The whole point of the format was the play big, splashy creatures, combos, and spells that were impractical in the win-as-fast-as-possible gameplay of every other format that existed - Standard, Modern, Vintage. Sure, you COULD play a Standard or Modern deck that wasn't competitive, but good luck when you show anywhere other than your kitchen table and get blown out of the water. EDH was an answer to that.
cEDH goes back to that old standard of gameplay - win as fast as possible. It's why, even in your own analysis of the cards, cEDH players didn't blink an eye when Iona was banned - she didn't help them win really quickly - while EDH players didn't really see why Flash was banned - it wasn't part of big splashy plays or combos.
Another point to show why cEDH is separate from standard, casual Commander is the need for proxies - you don't need proxies when your table, as a whole, isn't dumping hundreds or even thousands of dollars on the best possible cards for the best possible decks. When no one has Mana Crypts or OG dual lands or Mishra's Workshops, then it doesn't matter and no one needs to proxy. cEDH players need proxies because they're playing at highly competitive levels and you NEED those cards to have a competitive deck, harkening back to old days of Standard, Modern, and Vintage, where winning ASAP was the goal, instead of playing the game for janky fun and seeing what you could pull of with an off-the-wall or niche concept.
At the end of the day, there's nothing wrong with players wanted to have fun with cEDH, but the idea that cEDH and EDH are the same game ignores the fundamental basis and motive behind the creation of the EDH format, and the lack it answered among Magic players.
My biggest problem with CEDH is that it doesnt have the same creativity to me. The majority of decks are nearly the same though of course there are out outliers. But in a more casual setting I find it fun to see the jank and passion put into building around certain cards. That being said I still think CEDH is a perfectly fine format but I don't personally consider it the same as normal EDH. I wouldnt mind more bans and changes to actually make them 2 different formats.
There’s plenty of variety when you look closer and step away from tournaments. Fringe brews and flash in the pan decks pop up all the time. Even two commander will have vastly different deck lists. One of the things I love about cEDH is that I’m always looking to pioneer a new deck that no one has done before or improve existing ones. It’s easy to be creative when losing is an acceptable option.
@@yhuyyh isn't that basically all power levels of EDH
writing on those double face tokens is the only reason i buy packs now xD i have a CEDH deck with just those
Great video, makes me want to tuen the heck out of my Rionya deck. However in my experience the more competitive players tend to be more gatekeepy when it comes to stuff like proxies but maybe they are the crunchy "My deck is a 7" guys you have to get through before you hit cEDH where everyone is lovely.
I really think that the players who play strong decks and hate proxies are not cEDH players. They are just playing tuned decks and are “crunchy” as you say
I didnt wanna shell out the 8 dollars for the pretty SLD thought vessel so I took the AFR 349 mimic and used that for the proxy
Proxy for casual edh too, it's a bunch of fun
1:33 - Small rant because I hate the modern usage of the word "meta". "Anti-meta" decks 100% "part of the meta as a whole". They are decks made by playing the meta-game. That is, the game within a game of examining how people play and choosing your cards to suit that environment. They're not "meta decks", as in "within the list of the most popular and successful decks", but they absolutely are decks within the meta. The only way to play a deck that "isn't part of the meta" is to build it in a vacuum, without taking into account what other people are playing.
The usage of "meta" to basically just mean "popular and successful" is, I think, eroding understanding of what a meta-game actually is. It's not just the list of what things are popular and successful. It's the act of treating the examination of winning strategies as something that can, itself, be rewarding.
It's also fairly ironic, given that the video is about people using "cEDH" to basically just mean "popular and successful" without any concrete idea of what constitutes those things.
I would also say that this pretty handily defines the difference between EDH and cEDH. cEDH is when you play the EDH meta-game. You examine the strategies that win, pick cards and strategies that are most likely to beat them, then you bring that pile of cards to the table and execute your strategy.
Am I the only one who got the AMAZING pun at the end? Also what are everyone's thoughts on Zada storm as a cEDH deck?
there are some competitive player that are definitly not playing mtg for fun, they are there to prove them selves something by winning, usualy sooomekind of supperiority
The more I learn about the format, the more EDH as a whole reminds me of competitive Pokémon. We can debate if VGC or singles is more similar, but they all have similarities. So I'll talk way too much about them now. >:D
Singles, as hosted on Smogon, uses various tiers to indicate a given Pokémon's viability compared to the meta game that is the most popular format, OU (Over Used). These tiers are % based on usage and Pokémon from higher tiers are banned in the lower tiers because of how dominating they would be. And bans happen if they force very specific forms of counterplay or are too domineering as a whole. That's why Legendaries land in Ubers (the next tier on the power scale) on principle. Although even Ubers had to ban Pokémon before, giving birth to Anything Goes (AG). But what these tiers also do is give you a list of what to expect and what you can use to counter. This doesn't mean that lower tier Pokémon can't be used in higher tiers though. Some are even staples in Ubers or at least appear with some consistency. This is very reminiscent of your competitiveness slide scale.
VGC (which is a doubles format where you bring 4 out of 6 Pokémon from your team) on the other hand does not have an outright banlist beyond what Game Freak allows for the current format as the seasons are called. Which means that there are a lot of the same Pokémon on almost 90% of teams. These are the equivalent to the cEDH staples. While also following a more paper-scissors-rock formula than Singles. Speed control is the name of the game in a lot of match-ups and you always have to have ways to either out-speed your opponent (either by priority or your own support Pokémon making your team faster) or flipping the script with Trick Room (slower Mons move first). While still dealing with their actual threats and gaining the advantage for yourself. Meaning that games can be as good as decided very early on. This is your "win on turn three or be ready to prevent it."
Both of these have pretty clear meta games, but the current Generation's gimmick mechanic allows for a fair amount of room. Still. You decide on what you want to do and then build your foundation for it. Often with a lot of the same building blocks as others. Filling in holes according to your flavour.
EDH combines the two in a way. With the competitiveness scale being even more of a consistency scale than competitive Pokémon. You'll do your best to minimise randomness in all of these.
There's still a lot of randomness in Pokémon though. The difference in impact of a 1 turn sleep vs. a 3 turn sleep in Pokémon is massive for either player. And it's complete RNG. Your Pokémon is guaranteed to wake up after the third turn, but is that a risk you are willing to take? Though that is why VGC is best out of three. And why no more than one Pokémon can be asleep on each team on Smogon.
EDH and especially cEDH are very different beasts in that regard. Having up to three opponents or two allies let's you play around "bad luck" much more easily. Not always, of course. But your ability to influence table politics is a key part of your skill set. Something entirely absent from Pokémon. Add the many tutors and cards that do similar things to each other and you are almost guaranteed to have a chance. Anything with less of these will be inherently more "janky" and less consistent, reducing its competitiveness. Will likely still work in your playgroup and maybe even LGS though.