What a breath of fresh air to hear clear thinking applied to the spaghetti the Nelsonite Church throws at the wall. Another Grand Slam! (I'm American). LOVE these videos.
The fact that this series is called "Now you Know" is appropriate and upsetting because, NOW I KNOW! Not when I went through Temple Prep Class or Celestial Marriage class. When I read the CES Letter, Gospel Topics Essays, and watched some RUclips videos several years later. Not exactly informed consent.
Also, that tangent that Nemo skips through is relevant to me, because it states the Freemasons and be Latter Day Saints, and vice versa. What about the whole "one true church" thing?
This was very helpful to me, some of my adult kids became masons, are very active in both church and their lodges, studying up on how freemasonry and the church are related, is what led me down a rabbit hole, for which I am grateful because I want my kids to know they are safe with us if they move away from full activity in the church, this is a good example of why church leaders don’t want you googling things! Ha!
It is so deceptive that every time the church video says "Masons", both men and women are depicted. Repeatedly, the visuals imply that Nauvoo women were just as much involved in masonry as were the men. But women had always been wholly excluded from Masonry. I've always believed that one reason Nauvoo women so readily took to the temple endowments, was because they would have been the first women to be included in what had always been male rites in the lodges of the time. LDS women of Nauvoo would have felt highly privileged and set apart to participate in secret activities that had always been the exclusive domain of men, as compared to their non-Mormon sisters who could not participate in their husbands' restricted lodge meetings.
Freemasonry in the USA has a Women's auxiliary. The organizations that existed during the time of the Endowment was created and readily available can be found in a book entitled "A Ritual of Freemasonry" Author: Avery Allyn published 1831. The women would have joined Heroine of Jericho. The French Rite of Adoption was translated and published into English at least by the year 1785 with the title "Freemasonry for the ladies of the grand secret discovered", so they could have had access to it since it too was worked in the USA. Also the Free Gardeners while officially a separate order was sustained and conferred by Freemasons. Also the American Royal Arch's chair degree is called High Priest and it had an appendant body called Aaron's Band of Royal Priesthood that was suppressed during the anti-masonic era of the 1820s to 1840s.
We do not know the endowment as Joseph intended. We only know Young’s version and what has followed. I have decided to be cautions about blaming Joseph for what we cannot prove
What gaslighting and logical fallacies are you referencing with Prager U videos? I’m not saying they’re not there I’m just genuinely curious about some examples
i have 2 little questions. 1) what part of the joseph smith ceremony was by revelation? 2) if it was by revelation why did god change his mind? specifically, why don't mormons perform the blood oaths anymore? is it because of new improved revelation, or because of a poll?
Having had been in the church for most of my did not leave till age 59. After reading the scriptures and studying LDS history, I can tell you that God changes his mind a lot.
@@SteveSmith-os5bs The way things are done change, but the fundamental beliefs do not. This fact check was pretty elementary and only touched on if it was copied from Freemasonry or not. Big deal.
The last part you found as a tangent is actually very important to those who read the Bible, specifically judges 6 and Joshua 24. Either way, I appreciate the work you're doing for those who are seeking Truth. God bless❤
While the endowment teaches how to achieve salvation, the endowment is not necessary for exaltation. It would be an interesting study to look into all the changes to the endowment over the years.
It’s been quite some time since I’ve been in the temple but I thought I’d heard that the temple ceremonies had changed a bit recently. That they’d cut out quite a bit of the repetition, changed some of the wording, etc. Do you think this was done on purpose so that they can “distance” the temple ceremonies from some of the similarities between them and the Masonic rituals?
The church has changed the ceremony various times throughout its history, so doing it to separate the similarities between the two is a little far-fetched.
In the early days of the church, many people were attracted by the idea that it possessed secret signs, symbols, passwords, etc. that implied an aura of being on an "inside track" with God. In the modern age, that kind of nonsense no longer carries the amount of weight it had 200 yrs ago.
@5:35 Jospeh Smith Sr. was also in the Fresmason as well, so even if they had claimed that Joseph had no knowledge himself, he was still exposed through his Father's influence but in a smaller scope lol . Freemasons back then was like the fraternity/Boy Scouts for deed honoring men at that time.
Great work! Personally I prefer to this to the fair response videos. Just because the gaslighting ect. is a lot more subtle in the "now you know" videos and therefore way more dangerous. That's just my opinion though of course :)
Thanks for the feedback! I'm glad i'm able to spot it in the more subtle ways, it means moving forward I can fact check a broader range of church literature.
@agomodern People agree with what they agree with. That's all. Do you agree with what you don't agree with? No, you agree with what you agree with. That doesn't mean that he's not open to looking at other possibilities, or that he's not capable of changing his mind.
One apologetic point that the video makes so subtly that Nemo missed it, is that Joseph is initiated into masonry on one day and ranked as a master the very next day. I have heard lay apologists claim that Joseph's rapid advancement within masonry (which is characterized as a degraded form of earlier temple rituals) is evidence that he was already intimately familliar with the "source material" that masonry was based on as a result of having recieved revelations about the "true" temple ceremonies previously. And make vague references to quotes from the masons at the time that Joseph joined that the existing masons were impressed with Joseph's pre existing knowledge of what they were up to. Thus in one fell swoop is Joseph not copying masonry but he is out masoning the masons on day one. Neat trick that.
That is a clever way for them to couch it. I think the more likely reason why Joseph became a master mason the day after joining was because it was a merging of two organizations. Joseph brought the influence of the mormon population in alignment with the population of the masons so both organizations could benefit by the numbers within each group. This allowed both groups to enjoy more political influence and power in numbers. Kind of like if two large companies merged and were now able to control the market. That is why the masons were happy to make him a master mason, not because Joseph was so impressive. And Joseph was super happy to join the masons because he had ambitions for power and rank and joining the masons gave him instant political influence (remember everyone who was anyone in politics was a mason back then). To me, it seemed like a marriage of convenience for both Joseph and the masons.
Um, many Mormons moved up quickly in the ranks of Freemasonry at the time, not just Joseph Smith. Why not read a little about it instead of making assumptions about what Joseph Smith already knew about Freemasonry. How is that "evidence" according to you?
If you are making up a religion, it would be expedient (and a bit lazy) to borrow from readily available sources to produce your "sacred scriptures" and "sacred ordinances" , and doctrines. The evidence clearly exposes Joseph Smith to be a plagiarist. If the church was actually true, what would be the need for apologists to have to try to explain anything? Isn't God capable of expressing himself so clearly that every single person would understand completely what he meant? The church spends a lot of money paying apologists in an attempt to keep their cash cow members active and paying their tithes and offerings. As it has been said, "follow the money". $100 plus billion investment fund should be all the evidence one needs to figure out what the LDS church is all about, MONEY!
So you think God should give to people without them doing their part? Revelation come through faith and works (according to the Bible itself) so makes perfect sense that he would join the Freemasons so God could reveal what was missing. Nothing plagiaristic about taking what someone else has said and putting it into your own words. It's not it's a damn book.
One important fact is that it was commonly believed at the time that Freemasonry originated from Solomon's Temple. Joseph Smith would have likely believed this as well
Even if it was....I thought Jesus Christ did away with it all... beginning to see that's all we really need...kind of wish I knew it all thirty years ago when I converted...but, I've had some nice things... I don't like being lied to or fooled
Thank about that admission that the presentation (the ritual the list that you gave) came from masonry. Do you think members understand that the ritual they are participating in are masonic
I love how you label what the Church video is doing as “gaslighting” as you gaslight your audience. I almost snorted because the irony made me laugh so hard. Your commentary is full of hasty generalizations, logical fallacies, and assumptions. As an English Professor I would give this video a D+. As a disciple, I would give it a hopeful and merciful C+ because I hope that somehow your explorations will lead you to create a relationship with God and Jesus Christ rather than just focusing on deconstructing content from the Church (that you aren’t cognitively qualified to deconstruct).
Mormon's ripped off Masonic rituals. The guy was just really good a pursueding others. He wanted to create a cult, but he needed structure, so he just directly copied it, to have a ritual, church, and ect...
At 1:35 you say you smell gaslighting although there is no sensible basis for that. Then you said "if it was not new to them, that doesn't mean it won't be new to us". That makes no sense. There is no gaslighting there. Later you complain that the video doesn't contain citations and also evidence that Smith did not plagiarize from masonic rituals. That also doesn't make sense. Reason for that is this is a short informational video so it can not contain large amount of information. It wouldn't be a short informational video if it contained such information. You have some problems with how you think. It would be beneficial to work on that. And I am not gaslighting you, you really should work on correcting how you think.
If anyone makes claims as big as Freemasonry, they ought to provide information to back that up, therefore, the LDS Church shouldn't be excused from this. They can easily link an article or other videos to better support their position OR, hear me out...explain it in the video. Nemo provides evidence in his videos to back up everything he states, so why shouldn't the LDS Church do the same? 😃
@@sitapohiva1862 The LDS church does this to prevent itself from becoming liable for fraud. Study the LDS church and how it is organized and compare what they say and what they post in their speech footnotes as well as what is documented on there website and you will clearly see they have positioned themselves to avoid any liability for church members coming at them with allegations of fraud. There are a lot of attorneys at the upper levels of the LDS organization and that is not an accident or coincidence.
@@agomodern And most Mormons refuse to accept reality. Joseph Smith was a well known liar and fraud before he conjured up his false religion. The LDS church in its entirety of existence is one giant anachronism unto itself. Almost everything about the church, its positions, and doctrine have changed over time because of social pressures.
Section 124 was given in January 1841, that's the Revelation related to the endowment and ordinances of the Nauvoo temple. No doubt Joseph learned more as time went on, including from Freemasonry. My dad was a Freemason and I find there are two schools of thought amount them, the first believe Freemasonry is a men's club established a few hundred years ago and the second are those who believe Freemasonry began before King Solomons temple and have the secrets past down from generations. I believe Joseph and the others in Nauvoo were part of the second group
Sorry, I'm a little late to party and I appreciate your videos. I had a question and was wondering your thoughts. We know that the Free Masons date back to the building of King Solomons temple and the Bible does mention ancient temple ceremonies. Is it possible that the Free Masons originally were inspired by the works and ceremonies in the Ancient temple? There were also temple ceremonies during the time of Jesus, so it work make sense if temple ceremonies were also restored as the LDS Church claims and also could be similar to the Free Masons because their rites were developed from an ancient Era of the religion
I believe I explain in the video (if not, forgive me) that the idea that masonry comes from Solomon's Temple is a myth, the actual origin of masonry is medieval stonemasons.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Maybe the name masonry comes from medievel stonemasons, but that doesn't mean that is when the secret society started. I think secret societies started with Cain and Abel.
He was a lot like Mohammed. He claimed to be a prophet, wrote a religious book, practices polygamy, started a militia, and started a new religion. Maybe Mohammed was his idol. Lots of kids idolize different people today.
And PS Thank you for giving me a perfect example for the Institute Class I’m teaching about Answering Gospel Questions of how language is used to manipulate people into doubting. Your fallacious and continual misuse of the term “plagiarize” is amazingly illogical and awesomely subversive. I’m transcribing these lines to illustrate how “Merchants of Doubt” work.
You asked for a citation at 2:32 for which revelations Joseph received concerning eternal covenants that God wished to make with the members of the Church. I recommend D&C 124 (a revelation received in January 1841, over a year before Joseph was initiated as a Mason). This revelation was specific to the Nauvoo temple, which was still under construction at that point. In verses 39-40 specifically, the Lord states that He deigns to reveal ordinances to His people that have been hid from before the foundation of the world. The Church's temple endowment ceremony uses the Biblical account of the Creation as an allegory for our own divine origin and potential as God's children; it is also a vehicle whereby to make covenants with God. The degree ceremonies of Freemasonry, however, use the Biblical account of the construction of King Solomon's temple as an allegory for moral self-improvement, integrity, and service to others. Though the teaching model is similar (concepts of theatrical presentation, of physical gestures for tokens, of illustrative symbols, etc.) and is likely adopted from Masonry to be adapted to teach the Church's already-existing doctrine, the subject matter, context, and purposes differ. The similarities are few and superficial, contrasted with vast and profound differences.
Thanks for the info! From what I can see, there is no mention of the endowment, just washings, anointing, and baptisms for the dead. And in the context of the video, there is a clear implication that Joseph received the endowment prior to masonry, which these verses don’t show. Thank you for your comment.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON First, allow me to apologize. I specified verses 39-40, but I should have instead specified verses 40-41. Allow me to quote them here: "And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people; For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times." Earlier verses as well as the fact that this revelation was received in Nauvoo provides us with the context needed to know that "this house" refers to the Nauvoo Temple. The Lord states herein that he wishes to reveal theretofore unrevealed ordinances to the people of His Church. We already know that washings, anointings, and vicarious baptism had already been revealed. Two ordinances that were revealed *after* this revelation were the temple endowment and eternal marriage. It can therefore logically follow that these two ordinances are among those to which the Lord was referring in this revelation over a year before Joseph was initiated as a Mason. Given that the subject matter, context, and purposes of the Church's temple endowment ceremony differ from those of the degree ceremonies of Freemasonry, it is therefore clear that Joseph did not obtain the subject matter, context, and purposes of the temple endowment ceremony from Masonry.
Not quite, he was told further revelation and ordinances would come in the Nauvoo Temple, but that doesn’t mean he received the content of those ordinances prior to his initiation into Masonry.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON I believe that I have figured out the source of disconnect between my position (and, I believe, the Church's) and yours. The video (just prior to your pausing it at this point) says the following: "In the years prior to becoming a Mason, Joseph Smith had received instruction from God -- revelations -- about eternal promises which God desired to make with Church members. These promises are often called covenants." It is not claimed that Joseph had received the content of endowment prior to becoming a Mason; rather, it is only claimed that he is instructed (or it is revealed to him, as clarified by the video) *about* eternal promises that God desired to make with members of the Church. D&C 124:40-41 fits this bill, as the Lord provides instruction (or revelation) Joseph *about* future ordinances. To receive instruction/revelation *about* something (in this case, an ordinance) does not in and of itself equate to receiving the content thereof. Now, does this indicate that Joseph did or did not receive the content of the endowment prior to becoming a Mason? No. It simply means that he was aware long before becoming a Mason that there would be future ordinances revealed.
Latter-day Templar we can certainly agree he was aware before masonry that there would be ordinances revealed. My contention is that the implication of the churches statement is that Joseph already had the endowment before masonry, which the scriptures don’t indicate. Thank you again for taking the time to engage in this discussion, I assume you are a fellow member of the church?
If the masons knew a couple of things, good for them. In the LDS temples we learn how to return to God. The authority of the priesthood, which is only given in the LDS Church, plays a crucial role here.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON finding out that everything I was taught had a root in these lies 40 years of age and a 3rd generation LDS member..always had questions that got me disliked by the church and it's members, now I'm really understanding why. I wouldn't even have kept poking really but I wanted to get sealed for eternity to my wife and kept running into The Word of Wisdom problem of consuming wine. I kept asking myself how something as important as The Sacrament could be ever confused with something that was understood to be unhealthy and therefore a sin. I've been serving two masters and it's exhausting. Really appreciate the time you've taken to get this information out. Stay healthy and free
Show us one LDS rite that is Masonic. Show us one Masonic rite the LDS. Show us one LDS rite that the early Christians did not practice. Do some research.
Exactly. I see he included church links, but that's it. I failed to see proven that all ceremonies, etc. were 100% taken from Freemasonry. Plagiarizing means to copy something word for word and claiming it as your own, it doesn't mean to take something and adapt it to your own work. And so, what if he took aspects of Freemasonry? This guy isn't wanting to learn, he just wants to nitpick. It's easy to say that there needs to be citation when you are not required to provide any yourself. It is possible to know something to be a fact just through intuition and not necessarily because someone told you beforehand. Just because there is no citation does not mean it's not a fact.
@@agomodern none of the LDS Temple rites are Masonic....I am LDS and a 5th degree Master Mason. Masons took tiny elements from early Christian rites and altered them. Mormons have pure rites which mo one knew in Joseph Smiths time and restored them
Joseph took everything from other religions. He took Polygamy from Islam. He even compared himself to Mohammed. He was a very creative personality and got his idea for the book of Mormon from other books written during his time period and from other people speculating where the native Americans had come from. They didn't have DNA testing back then. The church likes to portray him uneducated so they can say how could an uneducated person write the book of Mormon. I think he educated himself by doing lots of reading. His own mother said he was a great story teller.
just a slight comment. you cannot become a master mason in one week. It takes years. So in JS journal the masonic lodge was built and he did the dedication prayer and 5ish DAYS later he's a master mason? No. it was an honorary title for the beloved man. as far as we know JS never went back to that lodge after that week. They take attendance. Brigham and so many others are a totally different story.
What a breath of fresh air to hear clear thinking applied to the spaghetti the Nelsonite Church throws at the wall. Another Grand Slam! (I'm American). LOVE these videos.
Thank you!!!
The fact that this series is called "Now you Know" is appropriate and upsetting because, NOW I KNOW! Not when I went through Temple Prep Class or Celestial Marriage class. When I read the CES Letter, Gospel Topics Essays, and watched some RUclips videos several years later. Not exactly informed consent.
Also, that tangent that Nemo skips through is relevant to me, because it states the Freemasons and be Latter Day Saints, and vice versa. What about the whole "one true church" thing?
Tracy * that’s why I left it in but sped it up. If you like, you can slow down the RUclips video and watch it at normal speed :)
Tracy * it is quite appropriate, and I totally get where you are coming from. These are things we should’ve known a long time ago!
No prob, I didn't mean criticism. Thank you for your videos!
Tracy * even if you had meant criticism, I would’ve welcomed it, I’m always looking to improve!
Great job! I wish I had a Nickle each time the “Mormon Story” doesn’t make sense the Mormon leadership gets a revelation from God.
Thanks! It’s one of the convenient aspects of continuing revelation that’s for sure!
This was very helpful to me, some of my adult kids became masons, are very active in both church and their lodges, studying up on how freemasonry and the church are related, is what led me down a rabbit hole, for which I am grateful because I want my kids to know they are safe with us if they move away from full activity in the church, this is a good example of why church leaders don’t want you googling things! Ha!
your ability to discern the psychological techniques of the Mormons is astounding tbh, most of that stuff would have flown over my head
Thank you very much!
I have an overwhelming spiritual witness... that "Nemo" is a man of truth and integrity.
It is so deceptive that every time the church video says "Masons", both men and women are depicted. Repeatedly, the visuals imply that Nauvoo women were just as much involved in masonry as were the men. But women had always been wholly excluded from Masonry. I've always believed that one reason Nauvoo women so readily took to the temple endowments, was because they would have been the first women to be included in what had always been male rites in the lodges of the time. LDS women of Nauvoo would have felt highly privileged and set apart to participate in secret activities that had always been the exclusive domain of men, as compared to their non-Mormon sisters who could not participate in their husbands' restricted lodge meetings.
Oh that’s a great insight, thank you!
Freemasonry in the USA has a Women's auxiliary. The organizations that existed during the time of the Endowment was created and readily available can be found in a book entitled "A Ritual of Freemasonry" Author: Avery Allyn published 1831. The women would have joined Heroine of Jericho. The French Rite of Adoption was translated and published into English at least by the year 1785 with the title "Freemasonry for the ladies of the grand secret discovered", so they could have had access to it since it too was worked in the USA. Also the Free Gardeners while officially a separate order was sustained and conferred by Freemasons. Also the American Royal Arch's chair degree is called High Priest and it had an appendant body called Aaron's Band of Royal Priesthood that was suppressed during the anti-masonic era of the 1820s to 1840s.
Again, well done Nemo. I really enjoyed this dissection of LDS lies and cover-up.
Thank you kindly!
N EMO LIES AND COVERS UP
We do not know the endowment as Joseph intended. We only know Young’s version and what has followed. I have decided to be cautions about blaming Joseph for what we cannot prove
So what did this video actually "fact-check"? I found it a pretty weak video.
Why does their video style remind me of Prager U? Anyone else seeing it or is it just the shared theme of gaslighting and logical fallacies?
I see it, It just seems to be dominant form of presentation in the zeitgeist right now!
What gaslighting and logical fallacies are you referencing with Prager U videos? I’m not saying they’re not there I’m just genuinely curious about some examples
I like how your presentation is very concise. You’re very sharp and do a great job of kicking the church right in the balls!
Hahaha! Not my intention but thank you all the same!
i have 2 little questions. 1) what part of the joseph smith ceremony was by revelation? 2) if it was by revelation why did god change his mind? specifically, why don't mormons perform the blood oaths anymore? is it because of new improved revelation, or because of a poll?
And if truly necessary for getting to the celestial kingdom..why would God change it ??
Having had been in the church for most of my did not leave till age 59. After reading the scriptures and studying LDS history, I can tell you that God changes his mind a lot.
@@SteveSmith-os5bs The way things are done change, but the fundamental beliefs do not. This fact check was pretty elementary and only touched on if it was copied from Freemasonry or not. Big deal.
Good stuff man. Thanks for your work.
You’re very welcome!
The last part you found as a tangent is actually very important to those who read the Bible, specifically judges 6 and Joshua 24. Either way, I appreciate the work you're doing for those who are seeking Truth. God bless❤
What "truth" in the video are you referring? That Joseph Smith plagiarized? lol Didn't know the masonic rituals were copyrighted.
While the endowment teaches how to achieve salvation, the endowment is not necessary for exaltation. It would be an interesting study to look into all the changes to the endowment over the years.
It would, cheers for commenting!
Well done. This is a much-needed peer review.
Thanks!!
It’s been quite some time since I’ve been in the temple but I thought I’d heard that the temple ceremonies had changed a bit recently. That they’d cut out quite a bit of the repetition, changed some of the wording, etc. Do you think this was done on purpose so that they can “distance” the temple ceremonies from some of the similarities between them and the Masonic rituals?
The church has changed the ceremony various times throughout its history, so doing it to separate the similarities between the two is a little far-fetched.
In the early days of the church, many people were attracted by the idea that it possessed secret signs, symbols, passwords, etc. that implied an aura of being on an "inside track" with God. In the modern age, that kind of nonsense no longer carries the amount of weight it had 200 yrs ago.
@5:35 Jospeh Smith Sr. was also in the Fresmason as well, so even if they had claimed that Joseph had no knowledge himself, he was still exposed through his Father's influence but in a smaller scope lol .
Freemasons back then was like the fraternity/Boy Scouts for deed honoring men at that time.
Thanks for these - glad I found your channel
Tara Fitness you’re very welcome, stick with me and I promise to keep doing my best and improving :)
Great work! Personally I prefer to this to the fair response videos. Just because the gaslighting ect. is a lot more subtle in the "now you know" videos and therefore way more dangerous. That's just my opinion though of course :)
Thanks for the feedback! I'm glad i'm able to spot it in the more subtle ways, it means moving forward I can fact check a broader range of church literature.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON What did you even "fact-check"? Someone should fact-check the fact-checkers.
Joseph smith is in the sons of perdition
It wasn't revelation. I am so sick of the lies.😒
To suggest that Joseph Smith didn't copy the masonic ritual takes some pretty impressive mental gymnastics.
plus what does the time line matter if the rituals changed and got updated anyways? Clearly they weren't devine in the first place.
Good point!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON You agree with anything that makes you right.
@agomodern People agree with what they agree with. That's all. Do you agree with what you don't agree with? No, you agree with what you agree with. That doesn't mean that he's not open to looking at other possibilities, or that he's not capable of changing his mind.
if JS had full endowment prior to March 15, 1842, then why bother with freemasonry?
Please keep going!
Will do!
One apologetic point that the video makes so subtly that Nemo missed it, is that Joseph is initiated into masonry on one day and ranked as a master the very next day.
I have heard lay apologists claim that Joseph's rapid advancement within masonry (which is characterized as a degraded form of earlier temple rituals) is evidence that he was already intimately familliar with the "source material" that masonry was based on as a result of having recieved revelations about the "true" temple ceremonies previously. And make vague references to quotes from the masons at the time that Joseph joined that the existing masons were impressed with Joseph's pre existing knowledge of what they were up to.
Thus in one fell swoop is Joseph not copying masonry but he is out masoning the masons on day one. Neat trick that.
That is a clever way for them to couch it. I think the more likely reason why Joseph became a master mason the day after joining was because it was a merging of two organizations. Joseph brought the influence of the mormon population in alignment with the population of the masons so both organizations could benefit by the numbers within each group. This allowed both groups to enjoy more political influence and power in numbers. Kind of like if two large companies merged and were now able to control the market.
That is why the masons were happy to make him a master mason, not because Joseph was so impressive. And Joseph was super happy to join the masons because he had ambitions for power and rank and joining the masons gave him instant political influence (remember everyone who was anyone in politics was a mason back then). To me, it seemed like a marriage of convenience for both Joseph and the masons.
Um, many Mormons moved up quickly in the ranks of Freemasonry at the time, not just Joseph Smith. Why not read a little about it instead of making assumptions about what Joseph Smith already knew about Freemasonry. How is that "evidence" according to you?
Awfully similar to how they claim their was a revelation for plural marriage prior to the Fanny Alger affair
*there
Yeah, it's awfully vague!
If you are making up a religion, it would be expedient (and a bit lazy) to borrow from readily available sources to produce your "sacred scriptures" and "sacred ordinances" , and doctrines. The evidence clearly exposes Joseph Smith to be a plagiarist. If the church was actually true, what would be the need for apologists to have to try to explain anything? Isn't God capable of expressing himself so clearly that every single person would understand completely what he meant? The church spends a lot of money paying apologists in an attempt to keep their cash cow members active and paying their tithes and offerings. As it has been said, "follow the money". $100 plus billion investment fund should be all the evidence one needs to figure out what the LDS church is all about, MONEY!
So you think God should give to people without them doing their part? Revelation come through faith and works (according to the Bible itself) so makes perfect sense that he would join the Freemasons so God could reveal what was missing. Nothing plagiaristic about taking what someone else has said and putting it into your own words. It's not it's a damn book.
One important fact is that it was commonly believed at the time that Freemasonry originated from Solomon's Temple. Joseph Smith would have likely believed this as well
It was commonly believed, it has since been abandoned
Even if it was....I thought Jesus Christ did away with it all... beginning to see that's all we really need...kind of wish I knew it all thirty years ago when I converted...but, I've had some nice things... I don't like being lied to or fooled
Thank about that admission that the presentation (the ritual the list that you gave) came from masonry. Do you think members understand that the ritual they are participating in are masonic
Merci pour ce partage je vais pouvoir l'ajouter à ma black list comme aussi les témoins de Jéhovah
I love how you label what the Church video is doing as “gaslighting” as you gaslight your audience. I almost snorted because the irony made me laugh so hard. Your commentary is full of hasty generalizations, logical fallacies, and assumptions. As an English Professor I would give this video a D+. As a disciple, I would give it a hopeful and merciful C+ because I hope that somehow your explorations will lead you to create a relationship with God and Jesus Christ rather than just focusing on deconstructing content from the Church (that you aren’t cognitively qualified to deconstruct).
Specific examples would be great rather than your generalisation.
Oh! Except for js to then just appropriate masonry form and name himself as origin & end of it.
I'm confused, now I know , what ?
fred smith from the original video, not much I suppose!
Mormon's ripped off Masonic rituals. The guy was just really good a pursueding others. He wanted to create a cult, but he needed structure, so he just directly copied it, to have a ritual, church, and ect...
At 1:35 you say you smell gaslighting although there is no sensible basis for that. Then you said "if it was not new to them, that doesn't mean it won't be new to us". That makes no sense. There is no gaslighting there.
Later you complain that the video doesn't contain citations and also evidence that Smith did not plagiarize from masonic rituals. That also doesn't make sense. Reason for that is this is a short informational video so it can not contain large amount of information. It wouldn't be a short informational video if it contained such information.
You have some problems with how you think. It would be beneficial to work on that.
And I am not gaslighting you, you really should work on correcting how you think.
If anyone makes claims as big as Freemasonry, they ought to provide information to back that up, therefore, the LDS Church shouldn't be excused from this. They can easily link an article or other videos to better support their position OR, hear me out...explain it in the video.
Nemo provides evidence in his videos to back up everything he states, so why shouldn't the LDS Church do the same? 😃
@@sitapohiva1862 Critics will never be satisfied.
@@sitapohiva1862 The LDS church does this to prevent itself from becoming liable for fraud. Study the LDS church and how it is organized and compare what they say and what they post in their speech footnotes as well as what is documented on there website and you will clearly see they have positioned themselves to avoid any liability for church members coming at them with allegations of fraud. There are a lot of attorneys at the upper levels of the LDS organization and that is not an accident or coincidence.
@@agomodern And most Mormons refuse to accept reality. Joseph Smith was a well known liar and fraud before he conjured up his false religion. The LDS church in its entirety of existence is one giant anachronism unto itself. Almost everything about the church, its positions, and doctrine have changed over time because of social pressures.
Section 124 was given in January 1841, that's the Revelation related to the endowment and ordinances of the Nauvoo temple. No doubt Joseph learned more as time went on, including from Freemasonry.
My dad was a Freemason and I find there are two schools of thought amount them, the first believe Freemasonry is a men's club established a few hundred years ago and the second are those who believe Freemasonry began before King Solomons temple and have the secrets past down from generations. I believe Joseph and the others in Nauvoo were part of the second group
The world is run by Freemasons, so it's a lot more than just a "men's club".
Sorry, I'm a little late to party and I appreciate your videos. I had a question and was wondering your thoughts. We know that the Free Masons date back to the building of King Solomons temple and the Bible does mention ancient temple ceremonies. Is it possible that the Free Masons originally were inspired by the works and ceremonies in the Ancient temple? There were also temple ceremonies during the time of Jesus, so it work make sense if temple ceremonies were also restored as the LDS Church claims and also could be similar to the Free Masons because their rites were developed from an ancient Era of the religion
I believe I explain in the video (if not, forgive me) that the idea that masonry comes from Solomon's Temple is a myth, the actual origin of masonry is medieval stonemasons.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Maybe the name masonry comes from medievel stonemasons, but that doesn't mean that is when the secret society started. I think secret societies started with Cain and Abel.
@@agomodern
This is just ur thoughts.
Every Mormon needs to read Method Infinite.
endowment is from royal arch masonry
Not a copy? Not word for word and sign for sign? Hmmmmmm. Interesting.
He was a lot like Mohammed. He claimed to be a prophet, wrote a religious book, practices polygamy, started a militia, and started a new religion. Maybe Mohammed was his idol. Lots of kids idolize different people today.
And PS Thank you for giving me a perfect example for the Institute Class I’m teaching about Answering Gospel Questions of how language is used to manipulate people into doubting. Your fallacious and continual misuse of the term “plagiarize” is amazingly illogical and awesomely subversive. I’m transcribing these lines to illustrate how “Merchants of Doubt” work.
Glad it was helpful! Feel free to show the full video, and let your students decide for themselves.
You asked for a citation at 2:32 for which revelations Joseph received concerning eternal covenants that God wished to make with the members of the Church. I recommend D&C 124 (a revelation received in January 1841, over a year before Joseph was initiated as a Mason). This revelation was specific to the Nauvoo temple, which was still under construction at that point. In verses 39-40 specifically, the Lord states that He deigns to reveal ordinances to His people that have been hid from before the foundation of the world.
The Church's temple endowment ceremony uses the Biblical account of the Creation as an allegory for our own divine origin and potential as God's children; it is also a vehicle whereby to make covenants with God. The degree ceremonies of Freemasonry, however, use the Biblical account of the construction of King Solomon's temple as an allegory for moral self-improvement, integrity, and service to others.
Though the teaching model is similar (concepts of theatrical presentation, of physical gestures for tokens, of illustrative symbols, etc.) and is likely adopted from Masonry to be adapted to teach the Church's already-existing doctrine, the subject matter, context, and purposes differ.
The similarities are few and superficial, contrasted with vast and profound differences.
Thanks for the info! From what I can see, there is no mention of the endowment, just washings, anointing, and baptisms for the dead. And in the context of the video, there is a clear implication that Joseph received the endowment prior to masonry, which these verses don’t show. Thank you for your comment.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON
First, allow me to apologize. I specified verses 39-40, but I should have instead specified verses 40-41. Allow me to quote them here:
"And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people; For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times."
Earlier verses as well as the fact that this revelation was received in Nauvoo provides us with the context needed to know that "this house" refers to the Nauvoo Temple.
The Lord states herein that he wishes to reveal theretofore unrevealed ordinances to the people of His Church. We already know that washings, anointings, and vicarious baptism had already been revealed. Two ordinances that were revealed *after* this revelation were the temple endowment and eternal marriage. It can therefore logically follow that these two ordinances are among those to which the Lord was referring in this revelation over a year before Joseph was initiated as a Mason.
Given that the subject matter, context, and purposes of the Church's temple endowment ceremony differ from those of the degree ceremonies of Freemasonry, it is therefore clear that Joseph did not obtain the subject matter, context, and purposes of the temple endowment ceremony from Masonry.
Not quite, he was told further revelation and ordinances would come in the Nauvoo Temple, but that doesn’t mean he received the content of those ordinances prior to his initiation into Masonry.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON
I believe that I have figured out the source of disconnect between my position (and, I believe, the Church's) and yours.
The video (just prior to your pausing it at this point) says the following:
"In the years prior to becoming a Mason, Joseph Smith had received instruction from God -- revelations -- about eternal promises which God desired to make with Church members. These promises are often called covenants."
It is not claimed that Joseph had received the content of endowment prior to becoming a Mason; rather, it is only claimed that he is instructed (or it is revealed to him, as clarified by the video) *about* eternal promises that God desired to make with members of the Church. D&C 124:40-41 fits this bill, as the Lord provides instruction (or revelation) Joseph *about* future ordinances. To receive instruction/revelation *about* something (in this case, an ordinance) does not in and of itself equate to receiving the content thereof.
Now, does this indicate that Joseph did or did not receive the content of the endowment prior to becoming a Mason? No. It simply means that he was aware long before becoming a Mason that there would be future ordinances revealed.
Latter-day Templar we can certainly agree he was aware before masonry that there would be ordinances revealed. My contention is that the implication of the churches statement is that Joseph already had the endowment before masonry, which the scriptures don’t indicate. Thank you again for taking the time to engage in this discussion, I assume you are a fellow member of the church?
It's all masonry and the masons killed joeseph in Carthage
Fact check the word "bolth".
If the masons knew a couple of things, good for them. In the LDS temples we learn how to return to God. The authority of the priesthood, which is only given in the LDS Church, plays a crucial role here.
Joseph Smith worshipped Nimrod.
Man I'm late 😔
Late to what?
@@NEMOTHEMORMON finding out that everything I was taught had a root in these lies
40 years of age and a 3rd generation LDS member..always had questions that got me disliked by the church and it's members, now I'm really understanding why.
I wouldn't even have kept poking really but I wanted to get sealed for eternity to my wife and kept running into The Word of Wisdom problem of consuming wine.
I kept asking myself how something as important as The Sacrament could be ever confused with something that was understood to be unhealthy and therefore a sin.
I've been serving two masters and it's exhausting.
Really appreciate the time you've taken to get this information out.
Stay healthy and free
Js "putting himself under authority" of anyone, anything, any other than HIS OWN MAGNIFICENT SELF? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Nonsense
So sad, I was raised in this garbage.
Show us one LDS rite that is Masonic. Show us one Masonic rite the LDS. Show us one LDS rite that the early Christians did not practice. Do some research.
Exactly. I see he included church links, but that's it. I failed to see proven that all ceremonies, etc. were 100% taken from Freemasonry. Plagiarizing means to copy something word for word and claiming it as your own, it doesn't mean to take something and adapt it to your own work. And so, what if he took aspects of Freemasonry? This guy isn't wanting to learn, he just wants to nitpick. It's easy to say that there needs to be citation when you are not required to provide any yourself. It is possible to know something to be a fact just through intuition and not necessarily because someone told you beforehand. Just because there is no citation does not mean it's not a fact.
@@agomodern none of the LDS Temple rites are Masonic....I am LDS and a 5th degree Master Mason. Masons took tiny elements from early Christian rites and altered them. Mormons have pure rites which mo one knew in Joseph Smiths time and restored them
HUMMM we note Nemo cannot respond as usual. . His info is bogus.
Joseph took everything from other religions. He took Polygamy from Islam. He even compared himself to Mohammed. He was a very creative personality and got his idea for the book of Mormon from other books written during his time period and from other people speculating where the native Americans had come from. They didn't have DNA testing back then. The church likes to portray him uneducated so they can say how could an uneducated person write the book of Mormon. I think he educated himself by doing lots of reading. His own mother said he was a great story teller.
Joey Smitty was whacko!!
Y'all should leave the church already
just a slight comment. you cannot become a master mason in one week. It takes years. So in JS journal the masonic lodge was built and he did the dedication prayer and 5ish DAYS later he's a master mason? No. it was an honorary title for the beloved man. as far as we know JS never went back to that lodge after that week. They take attendance. Brigham and so many others are a totally different story.