FAIR Mormon seems to point out two examples: the Pyrgi Gold Plates and the Byblos Syllabic inscriptions. Both are much smaller than the BoM, consisting of just a few plates. They are more like plaques than plates, some of them are triangles referred to as spatulas. There are a couple of other examples, but they are all very limited in scope, they are decorations, inscriptions, ornaments, etc. There is nothing like the entire book concept of the Golden Plates that exists. Its not surprising to find writings on any flat surface, including metal. The Egyptians put writings on any and everything metal, stone, alabaster, papyrus, wood etc. Writing on tablets and plates is also mentioned in the bible as well. Job 19, Jeremiah 17, Habakuk 2, Kings 7. Exodus 39:30 mentions an inscription on gold specifically. God wrote on stone in the stone age, why not have him write on bronze or gold in the bronze age. This isn't Joseph Smith being prophetic, its him being pragmatic.
Tons of historical examples of gold and other metal form discs being found in California in the deserts by miners. There were holes in the center of the disc probably so many discs could be stacked on a log or branch and just hauled by two workers. I’ll have to see if I can find photos of it. Some were found in the early 1900s to even ww2 era by miners. The war really ended a lot of mining operations for many areas to close for good.
@@koltoncrane3099 yep humans are creative critters, they have been drawing on pretty much everything since they evolved. Of course, just because humans scrawl things on stuff doesn't mean that stuff is books. Claiming that humans put markings in metal somehow validates the gold plates yarn spun by Joseph Smith, is like trying to say the Flintsones are true because we discovered a new cave painting in the 90s.
Wait until that apologist finds out that the witnesses only saw the plates with their “spiritual eyes” meaning they imagined it. It’s essentially what we now call “guided imagery.”
And their signatures were added to this “ testimony” in one form of handwriting. It all points to being totally fabricated . The plates were a totally earthly creation why Thame them to heaven ? Angels flying back to heaven with 25kg , Yea of course , obvious .
@@NEMOTHEMORMON TIMES AND SEA.SONS. VOl .. III. No. 21. CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL. SEPT. I, 1842. pp.897,878 very simple google search times and season vol 3 for the complete pdf "Behold I say unto you, that you must rely upon my word, which if you do, with full purpose of heart, you shall have a view of the plates, and also the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Urim and Thummim, ...... and it is by your faith that you shall obtain a view of them, even by that faith which was had by the prophets of old. And after that you have obtained faith, and have seen them with your eyes, you shall testify of them, by the power of God; and this you shall do that my servant Joseph Smith, jr. may not be destroyed,..... Not many days after the above commandment was given, we four viz: Martin Harris, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and myself agreed to retire into the woods, and try to obtain by fervent and humble prayer, the fulfilment of the promises" then after obtaining the neccessary faith they bore witness of the gold plates. the times and seasons article contnues: "Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come, that we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, " compare my testimony of a chair my bedroom. if i said joseph smith told me, that after prayer and fasting that i would see a chair in my bedroom, and i would see it by faith, and it would be the faith of prophets of old, and i bare witness that there is a chair in my bedroom: you would think i'm insane; because you don't need faith to see a chair. it's there. testimony of 8 witnesses has been changed. it used to read (in the original 1830 b/m) Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come, that Joseph Smith, Jr., the Author and Proprietor of this work today's b/m says he is the translator. so in the original 1830 b/m the witnesses say joseph smith is the author and proprietor. if he's the author of the b/m then there was no angel no gold plates etc.etc.
And don't forget after Joseph Smith was killed. Jesse strain went to Wisconsin and claim to have dug up plates and translated them into the "Book of the Law of the Lord" he had witnesses sign that they had seen the plates. You know always, Joseph Smith the scam 2.0 I wonder how many Mormons prayed about the book of the law of the Lord to see if it was true? And now that church just had to admit that the plates were present during the so-called translation process. But Smith had his face in a hat with his peep stone in there and that's how it was done because they were so many contemporary witness accounts. Saying that that's what happened. So if they didn't need the plates to do a translation, why did he need plates at all? The simple answer. There were no plates. Smith made it all up
When I left the church over 3 years ago I began to devour anything I could to learn the truth, both in and outside of the church. I shared information with my immediate family to the point that they would avoid me and roll their eyes. I couldn't figure out why they weren't interested in all that I was learning, after all, they left the church with me. It took me longer to get to where the arguments are so clear that there isn't any argument any longer. For example, I watch the video put out by the church and it has become such utter nonsense as to exhaust me by the time I get to the end of it. There is no longer any justified reason to believe the story that is put out by the church. It is like arguing with a 2 year old and trying to explain complex reasoning, they just can't get it. Perhaps it means I am near the end, or at least turning a page in my healing. I would like to say that I would likely not be to this point without people such as you who have helped me heal with truth. Thanks for your efforts.
I’m glad to help! But you’re right, it sounds like maybe you’re starting to turn a corner, which means more growth is on the way! I wish you nothing but success in whatever the next chapter brings! That said, I hope you’ll stick around a while longer yet!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON no to sound like a kiss up, but I started with xmormon reddit, then mormon reddit, then mormon stories, then RFM, and you are the last man standing. I will stay subscribed for some time. You are concise and respectful of our time, your format is fantastic.
Weird that Smith ran into three armed attackers on the way home. All three seem to have acted independently (e.g. they didn't seem to coordinate their effort into a 3 on 1 situation). Moreover, all three failed to understand the intrinsic tactical advantage of a having a gun against an unarmed person but instead used their guns as clubs.
It’s oddly PG isn’t it? And notice that when trying to stop the work of god and steal the very valuable plates, they act like cartoon characters, but when they tried to stop the work “for no reason”, they tarred and feathered him? Oddly proportioned responses I’d say!
@RadioFreeUtah - How do you know these people knew Joseph was un-armed? Did you talk to these three men? Did you read in their journals about their experience? Did they explain to you their failures of understanding? Maybe next time get some understanding of history, at that time, before you shoot your mouth off and try to fill in the assumption blanks. It's so easy to be critical, of a time, you don't understand. And a history that you know little about! BTW - Rifles were used to shoot, stab and club people. Maybe you are playing too many video games?
"multiple people saw and touched the gold plates" Well... They only saw the plates with "spiritual eyes". And they only touched the plates through a cloth... Nobody, save Joseph, saw and touched the plates without any coverings.
What I find interesting is that a 4 by 6 by 7 inch block of solid gold would weigh approximately 117 pounds. Even if you suppose that the air between the plates removed up to 30 pounds from the overall weight, that would place it in the approximately 90 pounds range which is about twice the estimate of those that lifted. However, do you know how much a 4 by 6 by 7 inch block of common tin would weigh? A solid block of tin in those demensions would be about 45 pounds. In fact, if the plates were made of gold, they would range from the 4x6x7 inches (117 pounds) to 6x7x8 inches (about 234 pounds). Removing some of the volume due to air would put the range somewhere from 90 to 180 pounds for gold plates in the dimensions given. But for common tin, it would be in the range of 30 to 60 pounds (a solid block of tin at the low range would be about 44 pounds to a high range of 88 pounds). So, from the information given, whatever the "witnesses" handled or weighed was not gold. It was most likely tin. I find it interesting how the Church shared this information and that within it is the information needed to disprove their own claim. The math and chemistry here do not back up the church's claims of golden plates.
There is also the fact that pure gold is very malleable (soft), and indented lettering would be mashed flat. Today, many metal mixtures containing gold are simply called gold, but I am not sure if there was ever a claim that the plates were pure gold. Still, plates with a high gold content and "parchment thin", buried a couple of thousand years under heavy earth that emerged perfectly legible (with the aid of a seer stone and hat) challenges credibility.
@@tthinker9897 That is a very good point. Especially if engraved in a form of "Reformed Egyptian" (which is not a language, but let's assume for the sake of argument that it used the early forms of Demotic), the variations of the various characters/letters would become difficult to distinguish from one another and make the book highly illegible even for those who were well versed in the language. That would mean that the people in the Book of Mormon that supposedly were reading the records on the gold plates would not have been able to do so even during their time as even small scratches or imperfections would have changed the meaning of the text they were supposedly reading. By all accounts, the translation of the Book of Mormon from gold plates and the use of gold plates as a medium for documenting the history of an ancient people has so many holes that it strains the believability of any serious scholar.
From the Protestant Trinity to separate beings godhead. If the Book of Mormon was a direct translation from God (as LDS claim), why the need for ten-years of editing (from 1832-1842)? Why the changes in doctrine? As always, NEMO you’ve done great work!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON If my memory serves me right Joseph kept the plates hidden from others because he said that they contained revelations that wasn't for that time. I've always found that odd because it was written in a script that no man could read and that even Joseph couldn't interpret. He could have shown them to everyone without risk of secret revelation leaking out. To me, that says that he had another motive for hiding the plates.
Exactly, why were the plates taken?? We have the seer stone and Abraham scrolls. I would argue these are of equal value as the plates. Only explanation is that if the plates were examined they’d be easily falsified and JS knew this.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON couldn’t the same be said of the Abraham scrolls? God has allowed us to view those fragments, why not the gold plates. I know we all know the answer , just funny to think about.
@@Celphirio to be Mass hysteria but not a mass conversion because it would likely if not clearly yes clearly be shown as fraud in the least so Mass deconversion on their part the later Parts like the Kinderhook as well as the papyri falsely ascribe to Abraham with which has absolutely nothing upon nothing to do with Abraham they've already been over debunk this fraud even by the apologetix themselves The Cult Satan Smith cult. So it's not likely it's print almost near inescapable they'll be amassed deconversion a lot faster but again we can already tell the way it's described and how he tells it or he lends itself enough proof that it's a fake little wonder how it's described seems to mirror that of forgery and Freemasons satanic luciferian the time during 1810 all the way to 1840. Let alone frauds in 1800 5 years before smith was born and conceived. And in 1700s as well.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON TIMES AND SEA.SONS. VOl .. III. No. 21. CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL. SEPT. I, 1842. pp.897,878 very simple google search times and season vol 3 for the complete pdf "Behold I say unto you, that you must rely upon my word, which if you do, with full purpose of heart, you shall have a view of the plates, and also the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Urim and Thummim, ...... and it is by your faith that you shall obtain a view of them, even by that faith which was had by the prophets of old. And after that you have obtained faith, and have seen them with your eyes, you shall testify of them, by the power of God; and this you shall do that my servant Joseph Smith, jr. may not be destroyed,..... Not many days after the above commandment was given, we four viz: Martin Harris, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and myself agreed to retire into the woods, and try to obtain by fervent and humble prayer, the fulfilment of the promises" then after obtaining the neccessary faith they bore witness of the gold plates. the times and seasons article contnues: "Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come, that we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, " compare my testimony of a chair my bedroom. if i said joseph smith told me, that after prayer and fasting that i would see a chair in my bedroom, and i would see it by faith, and it would be the faith of prophets of old, and i bare witness that there is a chair in my bedroom: you would think i'm insane; because you don't need faith to see a chair. it's there. testimony of 8 witnesses has been changed. it used to read (in the original 1830 b/m) Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come, that Joseph Smith, Jr., the Author and Proprietor of this work today's b/m says he is the translator. so in the original 1830 b/m the witnesses say joseph smith is the author and proprietor. if he's the author of the b/m then there was no angel no gold plates etc.etc.
The plates never existed. Mormonism is a fabrication false gospel. I hope none of you all are actually thinking Mormonism is actually credible. It seems like NEMO is still Mormon and trying to help them be more truthful. Mormonism will never be true as it was made to damn people.
Most of those lifted the plates covered in a sack felt that they were about 50lbs, there is an account of Emma Smith holding the plates in a sack, she makes no comment about the weight of the plates and that they made a metallic sound. Joseph may of have different sets of plates which he kept in a sack due Emma not commenting that they were heavy. I have read that if the plates were gold that they would have weighted over 200 pounds. Even at 50 lbs it be hard to run with and fend off 3 attackers. I would like to see someone try to recreate this on RUclips.
"The Book of Mormon was written on the plates..." Was it? We already know that the original papyri for The Book of Abraham didn't contain The Book of Abraham, so what guarantees that the text of The Book of Mormon was on those plates? What if it was another "inspired translation" and the original plates contained Yzma's recipes for potions that turn spoiled emperors into lamas and other animals?
On the FairMormon RUclips channel, they address just that. And I quote them, “If you wanted Joseph Smith to translate a Ramen Noodle packet, it’d be fine, the Book of Abraham would still be true. (Then Kwaku shakes his head “yes” in agreement).” This type of thought is where belief in the Book of Abraham leads you. 🤔
Fun Fact: the "witnesses" never even signed the witness statement, and some asked about it years after it has been published literally had never heard of it. On the original documents, all the names are in Oliver Cowdrey's handwriting with blank spaces next to them where the actual witness would presumably sign (just like your name is printed next to the signature line in a modern document). To the casual observer though, it looks like a bunch of signatures and the church still prints the witness statements to make it look like this is the case. But yeah, none of the witnesses actually signed their names to it.
Great job! Love your videos. I think it's important to mention that none of witnesses ever handled the plates except in a box or under a cloth... also nobody ever saw the plates with there real eyes, they saw them subconsciously with their "spiritual eyes." And "reformed Egyptian" isn't a real language, it doesn't matter what they call it.
I listened to John Larson’s podcast about why people do NOT leave the church it also applies to why members will fail to respond to this obvious serious situation. Freeze Fight or Flee…. The normal behavior of a human or animal,when confronted with a frightening situation . Most members IF they even read or heard of it will Freeze and not act Or Fight meaning demanding it is not real and is false Or Run the other way and not want to address it! Nemo I appreciate your commitment to this issue. The only way it MAY become address is if the IRS follows through on the laws the church leaders failed to follow.
I must ask, why are the stories relating to the gold plates still relevant? The church has admitted Joseph used a seer stone in his hat to produce the Book of Mormon and didn't actually use the plates during his "translation".
@@NEMOTHEMORMON A better question is why did Joe need the plates to begin with? They were never used. All the fighting, hiding, burying retrieving, fighting off, spiritual eyes, ad nauseum, were all for nothing.
Hey, Nemo! Isn't it also true that those who said they "handled" the gold plates only did so with some sort of cover over them, not actually touching them? And if they only "saw them with their spiritual eyes" as apologists have stated, did they touch also touch them with their "spiritual hands"? ;-) Another great video! Thanks.
The funny thing is, Joseph didn't even use the gold plates to translate the book of Mormon! He just used his seer stone in his hat to translate the plates!
Joe Smith was not only a successful PROFIT he was the original Navy Seal they carry about 60pounds 2 miles at BUDS. But Joey S was tougher than a Seal because big Joe fought off 3 armed attackers during his 2 mile run carrying 60 pounds 😅
You also failed to recognize that the entire translation of the BOM took about 70-75 days and he did not do it in the order it appears now. After Martin Harris loses the first portion of the translation, Oliver/Joseph return to the translation at the book of Mosiah. They carry through from April to May 1829 where they arrive at the end of Moroni and the title page. They then travel to Fayette to finish the translation by the end of June at the Whitmer home. There, they translate the small plates of Nephi as instructed by the Lord in D&C 10 which replaced the original lost translation. This latter portion is found in 1 Nephi - Words of Mormon). And yet, everything had to align. I recommend you read Don Bradley's book on the Gold Plates.
During Joseph Smith's lifetime, he always said that the angel who directed him regarding the plates was NEPHI . . . but after his death, they changed all that to MORONI.
Some problems with the plates: -We say Joseph "translated" the Book of Mormon. If he looked in his hat and saw English, he didn't translate squat. He transcribed GOD"S TRANSLATION. -The witnesses claimed that the Book was an ancient work. How were they qualified to make such judgement? And that it contained the gospel. How did they know that? Basically they testified of things of which they had absolutely no knowledge at all. -Most times the plates weren't even in the room while Joseph looked in the hat. If the plates weren't needed for the work, why find them in the first place? Why wait 4 years to retrieve them? Why did all the prophets of the Book of Mormon bother collecting the record for a thousand years, when god revealed the contents to Joseph word for word in ENGLISH?
Joseph knew the weight of gold. Moroni did also. Joseph was given only the plates to be translated that he could carry well enough to protect them from theft. The sealed plates not to be read to mortals then or now, that I am aware of, would be left in Moroni's care. The sealed plates were simply not needed then. The dimensions given of the sealed and unsealed plates together would be those plates Joseph saw when both were connected and in the stone box or both connected together when seen in vision.
Church used Phenician and Aramaic alphabet based letters in the video to give the viewer a impression that the characters in the plates are true characters.
Because it wasn’t directly related to the video, if that makes sense? I try not to go too tangential. If a video needs fact checking about Joseph and the Occult, I’m more than happy to give it a look!
the thricing checks on the gold plates every equinox. and 3 times/a coming in the night of the angel moroni. seer stone that the church has. the name gazelem (gaze) in the d&c and book of mormon, b/m reference to hidden treasure seeping into the ground, the treasure revelation in the d&c. nothing to see here folks move along. i bear you testimony, from the bottom of my heart, beyond a shadow of doubt, i would be remiss, if i didn't take the oppurtunity, and burning in the bosom.
The witnesses never actually saw the plates like it showed in the illustration. The plates were under a cloth. They only felt them and saw them with their spiritual eyes lol - more lies.
It seems like a lot of effort for something that wasn't really used. And what was the point of having a portion sealed, if Joseph never looked at it, and no one else could translate the characters. Thirdly, an angel taking them back to heaven generates a WHOLE lot of questions; like, why were the plates buried on earth in the first place? Why didn't heaven translate and drop off the transcript to Joseph? With the lost116 pages, why didn't an angel fetch the pages or destroy them (or at least tell Joseph where they were)?
Some supporting evidence. The original Doctrine and covenants contained Lectures in Faith which has a very trinitarian description in it. I believe it was removed from the “canon” because of this description. It is in lecture 5. Amazing that the church removed 1/2 of the doctrine and covenants in the 1920’s and no members of the church are even aware of its existence today.
NO ONE ☝️ EVER SAW THE PLATES. ? EVER??? Is that what I just heard? Geeze! I am learning more every day. And the comment about the witnesses? OMG! I just started reading “RoughStone” today. I guess I’ll learn a lot more there. Whew, I’m exhausted already.😉
You forgot about the toad that threw him 65 feet and that he "hid the plates in the hollow top of an oak tree"? "He saw in the box something like a toad, which soon assumed the appearance of a man, and struck him on the side of his head. - Not being discouraged at trifles, he again stooped down and strove to take the book, when the spirit struck him again, and knocked him three or four rods, and hurt him prodigiously" This is yet another reason why not to practice witchcraft. And what's going on here? Was someone a bit tipsy that night? *"fruit of thy/the loins"* *"thy loins"* 2 Nephi 3 [7] Yea, Joseph truly said: Thus saith the Lord unto me: A choice seer will I raise up out of the *fruit of thy loins;* and he shall be esteemed highly among the *fruit of thy loins.* And unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work for the *fruit of thy loins,* his brethren, which shall be of great worth unto them, even to the bringing of them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers. [11] But a seer will I raise up out of the *fruit of thy loins;* and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the *seed of thy loins* -- and not to the bringing forth my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them. [12] Wherefore, the *fruit of thy loins* shall write; and the *fruit of the loins* of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the *fruit of thy loins,* and also that which shall be written by the *fruit of the loins* of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the *fruit of thy loins,* and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord. [18] And the Lord said unto me also: I will raise up unto the *fruit of thy loins;* and I will make for him a spokesman. And I, behold, I will give unto him that he shall write the writing of the *fruit of thy loins,* unto the *fruit of thy loins;* and the spokesman of *thy loins* shall declare it. [19] And the words which he shall write shall be the words which are expedient in my wisdom should go forth unto the *fruit of thy loins.* And it shall be as if the *fruit of thy loins* had cried unto them from the dust; for I know their faith. [21] Because of their faith their words shall proceed forth out of my mouth unto their brethren who are the *fruit of thy loins;* and the weakness of their words will I make strong in their faith, unto the remembering of my covenant which I made unto thy fathers.
Great video and always you are very articulated. I have problems with the quote that The Book of Mormon is the most correct book when is evident that even with re-editing it still contains problems. JS also said that there was no Greek in the BoM and still we have the word Christ in there. JS somehow would overexagerate is statements and somehow it still lingers in the modern times.
I don't have the link, but I remember reading on r/exmormon a post from a independent translator that was hired to do an independent translation of the Book of Mormon into a less common language. He had a huge breakdown of all the challenges, confusing sentence construction, unclear pronouns, contradictions, and confusions. Super far from correct, and it was very hard and confusing to translate because of it. He really struggled to identify the intended meaning of a lot of passages. Even if you focus only on doctrine for "correctness", its clearing condemning polygamy by Solomon and David. Alma the elder gives confusing discussions of heaven and hell and the nature of grace, etc... Its all just problematic
@@tysonhoffman7443 I agree, in the first books of BoM there is a clear inclination that JS had a trinitarian view. Like you stated, polygamy is seen as a really bad thing, the concept of Hell being a lake of fire and torment. It is really impressive that JS changed doctrines in BoM and noone found it strange. JS makes Jesus the Creator and a total separate identity from God, there is no Hell, now paradise/heaven is divided in 3 different places, polygamy now is demanded by God, and so on. If the BoM is the most correct book like JS asserted then why the stories don't add up to the doctrines he created? It has so many gaps making the reliability of BoM dubious.
Correction: The Book of Mormon is the most correct book that gets a man nearer to God as long as he ABIDES by and follows the teachings and principles that are taught. The Book of Mormon never claimed to be the most Perfectly spelled book on the earth, it is the most correct book.
@@germanslice @germanslice I don't want to start a debate why I don't believe in the BoM, having Christ in there is not a "spell" error, the word is correctly written, JS claiming greek was not present that's different. There are so many points where one could point how BoM is not correct but I am more than certain you already know them. I understand you believe that BoM is the most correct book and that's fine, you are free to believe in what you want the same way I don't believe BoM to be the word of God and neither free of historical erros.
I have always wondered why there needs to be "another testament of Jesus Christ"? The Bible has always been sufficient to carry on the work of God. The Book of Mormon is basically a historical account with a lot of New Testament thrown in to give it the impression of being authentic. Mormon doctrine is contained in other books, such as Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and the Book of Abraham. If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was the restoration of the original church founded by Jesus, I think it would not look like what the Mormon Church looks like today. A typical LDS ward doesn't look that much different structurally from any Protestant Church. Joseph Smith borrowed different things from the various churches of his day, perhaps the office of elder from the Presbyterian Church. There were also other churches, like the Baptist, that believed in total immersion baptism and not baptism for infants.
5:15 That looks like what a lot of kids do when having to write papers in school of a certain length, add meaningless filler in hopes the teacher won't notice. It usually doesn't work in school, and Joseph's attempt here was just a lame. Why anyone would take the BOM seriously is beyond me.
Many times I have heard that the only changes made to the BoM were grammatical corrections like punctuation. Why does the church push this narrative when it clearly changed some doctrine from first to second editions?
Because it makes the claim that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book, and that is not bolstered by the idea that core elements of its theology are changed, so they'd rather we just read the edition we have now and not worry too much!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON There are metal plate inscriptions from as early as the Early Bronze Age such as the gold plate of Gishakidu of Umma , Byblos Syllabic (although some of them are technically plates, not codices) until the late Bronze Age such as Azarbaal plate (well, "spatula" actually). In the Iron Age there are a lot more examples, such as the Orphic gold tablets, and Sargon II construction document (currently housed in the Louvre, highly recommend a visit ... avoid the Mona Lisa!); Finally, and to end on a twist, are the Jordan Lead Codices. The only reason I mention those is that this is probably the only time you'll hear Daniel C Peterson condemn an ancient metal codex as a fraud.
Darrach brilliant, thanks for sharing! Are any of those the same size or containing the same volume of text as the gold plates? Enough to fill 1500 or so pages (bearing in mind the sealed 2/3)?
have you ever ever ever seen even a picture of a book made of gold? in all the world can you cite one picture of a book made of gold? much easier to believe joseph smith got fronted some money, some sucker wanted proof, joseph smith worked up a fantastic story, some fool came up with more money, some fool (martin harris) mortgaged his farm to do the work of the lord, and in the end an angel came and took the plates away. anyway, that's old mormonism. new mormonism is a rock in a hat. the mormon church even published a picture of the rock.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON They use this expression when they want to save difficult truths and teachings until later. Showing Smith translating from the plates instead of the hat. Or not mentioning that many of the witnesses either left the church, were related to or affiliated Smith in some way, or that more than a few of them claimed only to see the plates with "spiritual" eyesight, are all examples of milk before meat.
So... if the Book of Mormon is the most correct book... why was it anti-polygamy? And why was it anti-Secret Combinations (e.g. Masonic Rituals and Shell Corporations)? ;)
Where is the B of Mormon, if its written by the people in America, and JS says its written by lamanites. Why doesnt BofM go back to the rightful owners.
So Nemo what is your argument,the gold plate is not real or what,is not everything that physical beings can understand with their carnal knowledge(prob.1:7)
I think the weakest part of your video is your argument that Joseph Smith was incapable of carrying the gold plates while running from his assailants. There are alternative explanations; perhaps the story was exaggerated, or maybe he had more strength than we give him credit for. In my opinion, your reasoning here is similar to that of people who claim that Joseph Smith could not have translated the plates unless he had help from God. There are plenty of other, reasonable explanations. I'm not saying that Joseph's potential inability to carry the plates isn't improbable, I just wouldn't claim it to be absolute evidence of his fraud.
Nor did I claim it to be absolute evidence. I was very aware of being careful not to make an argument from incredulity, having just called out Saints Unscripted. However, the weight of the plates, as a form of evidence, should cause us to question the likelihood of that story, rather than its possibility. I agree the story was likely exaggerated. Thanks for keeping me on my toes!
I’m not sure we all realize how heavy gold is. That much gold weighs well over 60lbs. If the plates were truly gold, they would weight over 200lbs. To hold something that heavy and run with it would be near impossible. If they were some kind of gold alloy, say 50-50, it’d still weigh 50-100lbs. Try running with that in your hands. Maybe the angel lied and they weren’t really gold. Or maybe its a trick question....imaginary objects don’t weigh anything. ;)
What you missed were Jesus Christ and his Father. Anyone can ask of God in the name of Jesus Christ, and if you ask with real intent, having faith in Christ, the Holy Ghost will manifest the truth unto you. But you reject that because you do not really believe in God or Jesus Christ and prefer to rely on the ideas of sinful men.
I don't think its that people don't believe that the Holy Spirit will reveal himself to sincere people with true intent. I think its the subjectivity of the revelation and maybe the subjectivity of the intent that people question. We find this reasoning in just about every major religion. If you were to ask a Christian or ask a Muslim or ask a Jehovah Witness, why they believe that they have found the truth while others claim they have as well, the most common answer you will receive will sound similar to what you wrote. Everyone claims to have had personal revelation. Think about it this way. An unbeliever hears a religious message. They are attracted to it and so they begin to speak with those that practice it. They become more interested and so they begin to read their holy books and they are told that God will speak to them if they do. He will reveal the truth to them. So, you have someone that is already prone to believe. They want to believe, and that is why they are taking their time to ask, study and read what is from that faith. They want to believe, yet they have never heard the voice of the Spirit. They have no clue how to discern between God, their own imagination, or the enemy, but because they already desire to believe its true, they interpret any positive feelings as validation from God. Thinking that they are just sincerely asking God "with real intent" they, unbeknownst to them, are really riddled with desire. They want it to be true because they need something more in their life. This isn't a story of Mormonism. This is a story that comes out of most religions. The danger in this is thus... We have just taught a person new to our religion to trust whatever pops in their head or brings them chills to believe that is God without any instruction on how to discern God's voice from our own or the enemies. We should all feel at peace with out beliefs, but we should all vet them as well. What I fear with the Mormons is that they use this belief in their "internal witness" as a way to avoid vetting their discernment of God's voice. I'd wager its so bad that, even if we found a diary of Joseph Smith saying all was a fraud and laughing at all the gullible people, you would still have many Mormons stay with the faith because of this internal witness. If the voice of the Holy Ghost was real in our lives, then our beliefs should be able to hold up under scrutiny. We shouldn't feel like we are constantly having to spin information. There should be a confidence to put the faith under the microscope.
@@blusheep2 A Christian, a Muslim, or a Jehovah Witness can ask God and receive an answer. The Holy Ghost can witness the truth to anyone. Christians, Muslims, and Jehovah Witnesses all believe in God. Here is what the Holy Ghost does: 3 Nephi 11:32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath givenunto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me: and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me. Nemo and his friends are going to provide proof. 1 Nephi 11:36 Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb. So just watch this war Nemo is waging and see how well he does.
Just another man made ghost story. I follow a lifeway of ceremonies, and my son and I are honest enough to state that we prefer our ghost stories to yours. Be honest and get humble. ALL of this is man made narrative. We humans are really a pitiful lot. We should be out planting and gathering and sharing with no matter who and leaving this stuff alone. Wasting our time in these arguments. Man’s stuff.
FAIR Mormon seems to point out two examples: the Pyrgi Gold Plates and the Byblos Syllabic inscriptions. Both are much smaller than the BoM, consisting of just a few plates. They are more like plaques than plates, some of them are triangles referred to as spatulas. There are a couple of other examples, but they are all very limited in scope, they are decorations, inscriptions, ornaments, etc. There is nothing like the entire book concept of the Golden Plates that exists.
Its not surprising to find writings on any flat surface, including metal. The Egyptians put writings on any and everything metal, stone, alabaster, papyrus, wood etc. Writing on tablets and plates is also mentioned in the bible as well. Job 19, Jeremiah 17, Habakuk 2, Kings 7. Exodus 39:30 mentions an inscription on gold specifically. God wrote on stone in the stone age, why not have him write on bronze or gold in the bronze age. This isn't Joseph Smith being prophetic, its him being pragmatic.
Thanks for sharing! Some great info here!
Tons of historical examples of gold and other metal form discs being found in California in the deserts by miners. There were holes in the center of the disc probably so many discs could be stacked on a log or branch and just hauled by two workers.
I’ll have to see if I can find photos of it. Some were found in the early 1900s to even ww2 era by miners. The war really ended a lot of mining operations for many areas to close for good.
@@koltoncrane3099 yep humans are creative critters, they have been drawing on pretty much everything since they evolved. Of course, just because humans scrawl things on stuff doesn't mean that stuff is books. Claiming that humans put markings in metal somehow validates the gold plates yarn spun by Joseph Smith, is like trying to say the Flintsones are true because we discovered a new cave painting in the 90s.
Wait until that apologist finds out that the witnesses only saw the plates with their “spiritual eyes” meaning they imagined it. It’s essentially what we now call “guided imagery.”
Getting them to believe it would be quite something! But if I come across any apologetics trying to defend the spiritual eyes, I’ll be all over it!
And their signatures were added to this “ testimony” in one form of handwriting. It all points to being totally fabricated . The plates were a totally earthly creation why Thame them to heaven ? Angels flying back to heaven with 25kg , Yea of course , obvious .
@@NEMOTHEMORMON TIMES AND SEA.SONS. VOl .. III. No. 21. CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL. SEPT. I, 1842. pp.897,878
very simple google search times and season vol 3 for the complete pdf
"Behold I say unto you, that you must rely upon my word, which if you do, with full purpose of heart, you shall have a view of the plates, and also the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Urim and Thummim, ...... and it is by your faith that you shall obtain a view of them, even by that faith which was had by the prophets of old.
And after that you have obtained faith, and have seen them with your eyes, you shall testify of them, by the power of God; and this you shall do that my servant Joseph Smith, jr. may not be destroyed,.....
Not many days after the above commandment was given, we four viz: Martin Harris, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and myself agreed to retire into the woods, and try to obtain by fervent and humble prayer, the fulfilment of the promises"
then after obtaining the neccessary faith they bore witness of the gold plates. the times and seasons article contnues:
"Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come, that we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, "
compare my testimony of a chair my bedroom.
if i said joseph smith told me, that after prayer and fasting that i would see a chair in my bedroom, and i would see it by faith, and it would be the faith of prophets of old, and i bare witness that there is a chair in my bedroom: you would think i'm insane; because you don't need faith to see a chair. it's there.
testimony of 8 witnesses has been changed.
it used to read (in the original 1830 b/m) Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come, that Joseph Smith, Jr., the Author and Proprietor of this work
today's b/m says he is the translator. so in the original 1830 b/m the witnesses say joseph smith is the author and proprietor. if he's the author of the b/m then there was no angel no gold plates etc.etc.
and let's not forget Martin Harris' testimony of what he saw - "like it was looking at a city through a mountain". For real?
And don't forget after Joseph Smith was killed. Jesse strain went to Wisconsin and claim to have dug up plates and translated them into the "Book of the Law of the Lord" he had witnesses sign that they had seen the plates. You know always, Joseph Smith the scam 2.0 I wonder how many Mormons prayed about the book of the law of the Lord to see if it was true? And now that church just had to admit that the plates were present during the so-called translation process. But Smith had his face in a hat with his peep stone in there and that's how it was done because they were so many contemporary witness accounts. Saying that that's what happened. So if they didn't need the plates to do a translation, why did he need plates at all? The simple answer. There were no plates. Smith made it all up
When I left the church over 3 years ago I began to devour anything I could to learn the truth, both in and outside of the church. I shared information with my immediate family to the point that they would avoid me and roll their eyes. I couldn't figure out why they weren't interested in all that I was learning, after all, they left the church with me. It took me longer to get to where the arguments are so clear that there isn't any argument any longer. For example, I watch the video put out by the church and it has become such utter nonsense as to exhaust me by the time I get to the end of it. There is no longer any justified reason to believe the story that is put out by the church. It is like arguing with a 2 year old and trying to explain complex reasoning, they just can't get it. Perhaps it means I am near the end, or at least turning a page in my healing.
I would like to say that I would likely not be to this point without people such as you who have helped me heal with truth. Thanks for your efforts.
I’m glad to help! But you’re right, it sounds like maybe you’re starting to turn a corner, which means more growth is on the way! I wish you nothing but success in whatever the next chapter brings! That said, I hope you’ll stick around a while longer yet!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON no to sound like a kiss up, but I started with xmormon reddit, then mormon reddit, then mormon stories, then RFM, and you are the last man standing. I will stay subscribed for some time. You are concise and respectful of our time, your format is fantastic.
You obviously don't understand the power of God. Joseph couldn't take the plates with him without bringing Emma.
Weird that Smith ran into three armed attackers on the way home. All three seem to have acted independently (e.g. they didn't seem to coordinate their effort into a 3 on 1 situation). Moreover, all three failed to understand the intrinsic tactical advantage of a having a gun against an unarmed person but instead used their guns as clubs.
Completely foolish indeed. Point the gun and threaten or shoot, don't use it like a brass knuckle at the start of a confrontation.
It’s oddly PG isn’t it? And notice that when trying to stop the work of god and steal the very valuable plates, they act like cartoon characters, but when they tried to stop the work “for no reason”, they tarred and feathered him? Oddly proportioned responses I’d say!
Haha. This is great!
@RadioFreeUtah - How do you know these people knew Joseph was un-armed? Did you talk to these three men? Did you read in their journals about their experience? Did they explain to you their failures of understanding?
Maybe next time get some understanding of history, at that time, before you shoot your mouth off and try to fill in the assumption blanks. It's so easy to be critical, of a time, you don't understand. And a history that you know little about!
BTW - Rifles were used to shoot, stab and club people. Maybe you are playing too many video games?
@@user-jr7xk9su5n Ah, I see you too have been trained in the apologetic arts.
"multiple people saw and touched the gold plates"
Well... They only saw the plates with "spiritual eyes".
And they only touched the plates through a cloth...
Nobody, save Joseph, saw and touched the plates without any coverings.
I couldn’t find sources for this part, so left it, but if you can find them for me I’m sure that’ll be useful in future!
What I find interesting is that a 4 by 6 by 7 inch block of solid gold would weigh approximately 117 pounds. Even if you suppose that the air between the plates removed up to 30 pounds from the overall weight, that would place it in the approximately 90 pounds range which is about twice the estimate of those that lifted. However, do you know how much a 4 by 6 by 7 inch block of common tin would weigh? A solid block of tin in those demensions would be about 45 pounds. In fact, if the plates were made of gold, they would range from the 4x6x7 inches (117 pounds) to 6x7x8 inches (about 234 pounds). Removing some of the volume due to air would put the range somewhere from 90 to 180 pounds for gold plates in the dimensions given. But for common tin, it would be in the range of 30 to 60 pounds (a solid block of tin at the low range would be about 44 pounds to a high range of 88 pounds). So, from the information given, whatever the "witnesses" handled or weighed was not gold. It was most likely tin. I find it interesting how the Church shared this information and that within it is the information needed to disprove their own claim. The math and chemistry here do not back up the church's claims of golden plates.
Great point! Thanks for sharing the breakdown!
There is also the fact that pure gold is very malleable (soft), and indented lettering would be mashed flat. Today, many metal mixtures containing gold are simply called gold, but I am not sure if there was ever a claim that the plates were pure gold. Still, plates with a high gold content and "parchment thin", buried a couple of thousand years under heavy earth that emerged perfectly legible (with the aid of a seer stone and hat) challenges credibility.
@@tthinker9897 That is a very good point. Especially if engraved in a form of "Reformed Egyptian" (which is not a language, but let's assume for the sake of argument that it used the early forms of Demotic), the variations of the various characters/letters would become difficult to distinguish from one another and make the book highly illegible even for those who were well versed in the language. That would mean that the people in the Book of Mormon that supposedly were reading the records on the gold plates would not have been able to do so even during their time as even small scratches or imperfections would have changed the meaning of the text they were supposedly reading. By all accounts, the translation of the Book of Mormon from gold plates and the use of gold plates as a medium for documenting the history of an ancient people has so many holes that it strains the believability of any serious scholar.
From the Protestant Trinity to separate beings godhead. If the Book of Mormon was a direct translation from God (as LDS claim), why the need for ten-years of editing (from 1832-1842)? Why the changes in doctrine?
As always, NEMO you’ve done great work!
It just occurred to me, what did it matter if a portion of the plates was sealed, if Joseph Smith wasn't even looking at them?
Very interesting thought!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON If my memory serves me right Joseph kept the plates hidden from others because he said that they contained revelations that wasn't for that time. I've always found that odd because it was written in a script that no man could read and that even Joseph couldn't interpret. He could have shown them to everyone without risk of secret revelation leaking out. To me, that says that he had another motive for hiding the plates.
Ive seen the light , with my spiritual eyes . thanks for spreading the truth NEMO
Glad to be a part of it!
Great work , Nemo! I am grateful. ❤
Why are we allowed to find ancient artifacts that build our faith but are banned from seeing the real gold plates?
Exactly, why were the plates taken?? We have the seer stone and Abraham scrolls. I would argue these are of equal value as the plates. Only explanation is that if the plates were examined they’d be easily falsified and JS knew this.
Maybe because whatever Joseph had under that cloth wouldn't have built our faith...
@@NEMOTHEMORMON couldn’t the same be said of the Abraham scrolls? God has allowed us to view those fragments, why not the gold plates. I know we all know the answer , just funny to think about.
Agreed! We have the papyrus thanks to a museum and I bet the church wishes we didn’t!
@@Celphirio to be Mass hysteria but not a mass conversion because it would likely if not clearly yes clearly be shown as fraud in the least so Mass deconversion on their part the later Parts like the Kinderhook as well as the papyri falsely ascribe to Abraham with which has absolutely nothing upon nothing to do with Abraham they've already been over debunk this fraud even by the apologetix themselves The Cult Satan Smith cult. So it's not likely it's print almost near inescapable they'll be amassed deconversion a lot faster but again we can already tell the way it's described and how he tells it or he lends itself enough proof that it's a fake little wonder how it's described seems to mirror that of forgery and Freemasons satanic luciferian the time during 1810 all the way to 1840. Let alone frauds in 1800 5 years before smith was born and conceived. And in 1700s as well.
I love how everything is a matter of fact. And I thought the witnesses didn’t actually touch or handle the plates.
I couldn’t find sources quickly enough, though I’ve heard that too. If you ever find the source, let me know!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON I think you may find some citations in the letterformywife.com
@@NEMOTHEMORMON TIMES AND SEA.SONS. VOl .. III. No. 21. CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL. SEPT. I, 1842. pp.897,878
very simple google search times and season vol 3 for the complete pdf
"Behold I say unto you, that you must rely upon my word, which if you do, with full purpose of heart, you shall have a view of the plates, and also the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Urim and Thummim, ...... and it is by your faith that you shall obtain a view of them, even by that faith which was had by the prophets of old.
And after that you have obtained faith, and have seen them with your eyes, you shall testify of them, by the power of God; and this you shall do that my servant Joseph Smith, jr. may not be destroyed,.....
Not many days after the above commandment was given, we four viz: Martin Harris, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and myself agreed to retire into the woods, and try to obtain by fervent and humble prayer, the fulfilment of the promises"
then after obtaining the neccessary faith they bore witness of the gold plates. the times and seasons article contnues:
"Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come, that we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, "
compare my testimony of a chair my bedroom.
if i said joseph smith told me, that after prayer and fasting that i would see a chair in my bedroom, and i would see it by faith, and it would be the faith of prophets of old, and i bare witness that there is a chair in my bedroom: you would think i'm insane; because you don't need faith to see a chair. it's there.
testimony of 8 witnesses has been changed.
it used to read (in the original 1830 b/m) Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come, that Joseph Smith, Jr., the Author and Proprietor of this work
today's b/m says he is the translator. so in the original 1830 b/m the witnesses say joseph smith is the author and proprietor. if he's the author of the b/m then there was no angel no gold plates etc.etc.
The plates never existed. Mormonism is a fabrication false gospel. I hope none of you all are actually thinking Mormonism is actually credible. It seems like NEMO is still Mormon and trying to help them be more truthful. Mormonism will never be true as it was made to damn people.
Most of those lifted the plates covered in a sack felt that they were about 50lbs, there is an account of Emma Smith holding the plates in a sack, she makes no comment about the weight of the plates and that they made a metallic sound. Joseph may of have different sets of plates which he kept in a sack due Emma not commenting that they were heavy. I have read that if the plates were gold that they would have weighted over 200 pounds. Even at 50 lbs it be hard to run with and fend off 3 attackers. I would like to see someone try to recreate this on RUclips.
Here is how to tell the real prophets from the false prophets, they are ALL false prophets.
Great as always!
A documentary on Netflix came out today called "Murder Among the Mormons". I highly recommend it.
Thanks! How would you feel about me reacting to it?
@@NEMOTHEMORMON I would tune in for that.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON yes! I’m in the middle of watching it right now! It’s blowing me away 😯 would love to hear your views on that Nemo!
Your wish is my command! ruclips.net/video/BlzGyQ_JaH8/видео.html
@@NEMOTHEMORMON I just watched it! Thanks so much for doing a reaction video to that. You brought up some things that I completely missed!
"The Book of Mormon was written on the plates..." Was it? We already know that the original papyri for The Book of Abraham didn't contain The Book of Abraham, so what guarantees that the text of The Book of Mormon was on those plates? What if it was another "inspired translation" and the original plates contained Yzma's recipes for potions that turn spoiled emperors into lamas and other animals?
What an excellent point.
It’s a good point, once you bring the catalyst theory into play, in an apologists dream, because nothing actually has to be what it’s reported to be!
On the FairMormon RUclips channel, they address just that. And I quote them, “If you wanted Joseph Smith to translate a Ramen Noodle packet, it’d be fine, the Book of Abraham would still be true. (Then Kwaku shakes his head “yes” in agreement).”
This type of thought is where belief in the Book of Abraham leads you. 🤔
That’s some of my earlier work! 'The Book of Abraham vs. the CES Letter!' - FACT CHECK
ruclips.net/video/F7yWmJV6J-g/видео.html
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Do you have any videos about Mormons in other countries?
Fun Fact: the "witnesses" never even signed the witness statement, and some asked about it years after it has been published literally had never heard of it.
On the original documents, all the names are in Oliver Cowdrey's handwriting with blank spaces next to them where the actual witness would presumably sign (just like your name is printed next to the signature line in a modern document).
To the casual observer though, it looks like a bunch of signatures and the church still prints the witness statements to make it look like this is the case.
But yeah, none of the witnesses actually signed their names to it.
Thanks for sharing! I was aware of this, but I’m never quite sure how deep into things to go with my videos!
Haha, I believe it. Do you have a source I can use when I bring that up in the future?
Great job! Love your videos. I think it's important to mention that none of witnesses ever handled the plates except in a box or under a cloth... also nobody ever saw the plates with there real eyes, they saw them subconsciously with their "spiritual eyes." And "reformed Egyptian" isn't a real language, it doesn't matter what they call it.
Thanks for the additional insight!!
I listened to John Larson’s podcast about why people do NOT leave the church it also applies to why members will fail to respond to this obvious serious situation.
Freeze
Fight or
Flee…. The normal behavior of a human or animal,when confronted with a frightening situation .
Most members IF they even read or heard of it will Freeze and not act
Or Fight meaning demanding it is not real and is false
Or Run the other way and not want to address it!
Nemo I appreciate your commitment to this issue.
The only way it MAY become address is if the IRS follows through on the laws the church leaders failed to follow.
I must ask, why are the stories relating to the gold plates still relevant? The church has admitted Joseph used a seer stone in his hat to produce the Book of Mormon and didn't actually use the plates during his "translation".
It's a good question!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON A better question is why did Joe need the plates to begin with? They were never used. All the fighting, hiding, burying retrieving, fighting off, spiritual eyes, ad nauseum, were all for nothing.
How much deceptive an organization can be with their devotees money is mind boggling how to answer for it is yet to be witnessed.
Oh my gosh! I can’t believe I used to believe this story!!
I did too,until about 8 years old,but then agian I thought Santa was real also.
Hey, Nemo! Isn't it also true that those who said they "handled" the gold plates only did so with some sort of cover over them, not actually touching them? And if they only "saw them with their spiritual eyes" as apologists have stated, did they touch also touch them with their "spiritual hands"? ;-) Another great video! Thanks.
The funny thing is, Joseph didn't even use the gold plates to translate the book of Mormon! He just used his seer stone in his hat to translate the plates!
Pretty much
8:36... Nemo, you appear to be the power of God!
Hahahaha!
Thanks for pointing that out. The placement is epic!
Joe Smith was not only a successful PROFIT he was the original Navy Seal they carry about 60pounds 2 miles at BUDS. But Joey S was tougher than a Seal because big Joe fought off 3 armed attackers during his 2 mile run carrying 60 pounds 😅
Why are they portraying Joseph Smith's character with a long white beard?
You also failed to recognize that the entire translation of the BOM took about 70-75 days and he did not do it in the order it appears now. After Martin Harris loses the first portion of the translation, Oliver/Joseph return to the translation at the book of Mosiah. They carry through from April to May 1829 where they arrive at the end of Moroni and the title page.
They then travel to Fayette to finish the translation by the end of June at the Whitmer home. There, they translate the small plates of Nephi as instructed by the Lord in D&C 10 which replaced the original lost translation. This latter portion is found in 1 Nephi - Words of Mormon).
And yet, everything had to align.
I recommend you read Don Bradley's book on the Gold Plates.
A 5-gallon bottle of water weighs 40 lbs.(low end of scale) I dare anyone to run 2 miles with one.
During Joseph Smith's lifetime, he always said that the angel who directed him regarding the plates was NEPHI . . . but after his death, they changed all that to MORONI.
Some problems with the plates:
-We say Joseph "translated" the Book of Mormon. If he looked in his hat and saw English, he didn't translate squat. He transcribed GOD"S TRANSLATION.
-The witnesses claimed that the Book was an ancient work. How were they qualified to make such judgement? And that it contained the gospel. How did they know that? Basically they testified of things of which they had absolutely no knowledge at all.
-Most times the plates weren't even in the room while Joseph looked in the hat. If the plates weren't needed for the work, why find them in the first place? Why wait 4 years to retrieve them? Why did all the prophets of the Book of Mormon bother collecting the record for a thousand years, when god revealed the contents to Joseph word for word in ENGLISH?
Great points, more washing of their history.
Cheers!!
People that claim to speak to God often claim God speaks King James English. It’s a dead give away to me.
Brilliant video, keep up the good work!
Thanks, will do!
Joseph knew the weight of gold. Moroni did also. Joseph was given only the plates to be translated that he could carry well enough to protect them from theft. The sealed plates not to be read to mortals then or now, that I am aware of, would be left in Moroni's care. The sealed plates were simply not needed then. The dimensions given of the sealed and unsealed plates together would be those plates Joseph saw when both were connected and in the stone box or both connected together when seen in vision.
Church used Phenician and Aramaic alphabet based letters in the video to give the viewer a impression that the characters in the plates are true characters.
If the plates were actually gold they would have weighed much more than 40-60 lbs.
Just can’t figure why the plates were needed in the narrative of the history of the. “Church”.
The weight of the plates is un-known. The weight of the contents is known only by those who know them.
Also, all of the witnesses confessed to have seen/handled the plates “with spiritual eyes,” not literally holding them, perusing them, etc.
That’s an insight I wish I’d added in, cheers for bringing it up!
Why no mention of the association with the occult and treasure digging? Occult symbols all about this event.
Because it wasn’t directly related to the video, if that makes sense? I try not to go too tangential. If a video needs fact checking about Joseph and the Occult, I’m more than happy to give it a look!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON watch Dan Vogel videos on JS and the Occult. I think you will find it informative. I enjoy watching your presentations.
I’ll have a look, thanks!
the thricing checks on the gold plates every equinox. and 3 times/a coming in the night of the angel moroni. seer stone that the church has. the name gazelem (gaze) in the d&c and book of mormon, b/m reference to hidden treasure seeping into the ground, the treasure revelation in the d&c. nothing to see here folks move along. i bear you testimony, from the bottom of my heart, beyond a shadow of doubt, i would be remiss, if i didn't take the oppurtunity, and burning in the bosom.
It’s important to note that the witnesses of the gold plates saw them with their “spiritual eyes” (their imaginations), not their physical eyes.
The witnesses never actually saw the plates like it showed in the illustration. The plates were under a cloth. They only felt them and saw them with their spiritual eyes lol - more lies.
It seems like a lot of effort for something that wasn't really used. And what was the point of having a portion sealed, if Joseph never looked at it, and no one else could translate the characters. Thirdly, an angel taking them back to heaven generates a WHOLE lot of questions; like, why were the plates buried on earth in the first place? Why didn't heaven translate and drop off the transcript to Joseph? With the lost116 pages, why didn't an angel fetch the pages or destroy them (or at least tell Joseph where they were)?
Groan, now I remember how boring the BoM is with that verse about the years that passed 🤦♂️
Sorry hahaha!
Some supporting evidence.
The original Doctrine and covenants contained Lectures in Faith which has a very trinitarian description in it. I believe it was removed from the “canon” because of this description. It is in lecture 5. Amazing that the church removed 1/2 of the doctrine and covenants in the 1920’s and no members of the church are even aware of its existence today.
Thank you!! I definitely need to look into that!
Early accounts tell of Nephi visiting Joseph Smith about the Plates.
NO ONE ☝️ EVER SAW THE PLATES. ? EVER??? Is that what I just heard? Geeze! I am learning more every day. And the comment about the witnesses? OMG!
I just started reading “RoughStone” today. I guess I’ll learn a lot more there. Whew, I’m exhausted already.😉
Enjoy the ride!
You forgot about the toad that threw him 65 feet and that he "hid the plates in the hollow top of an oak tree"?
"He saw in the box something like a toad, which soon assumed the appearance of a man, and struck him on the side of his head. - Not being discouraged at trifles, he again stooped down and strove to take the book, when the spirit struck him again, and knocked him three or four rods, and hurt him prodigiously"
This is yet another reason why not to practice witchcraft.
And what's going on here? Was someone a bit tipsy that night?
*"fruit of thy/the loins"* *"thy loins"*
2 Nephi 3
[7] Yea, Joseph truly said: Thus saith the Lord unto me: A choice seer will I raise up out of the *fruit of thy loins;* and he shall be esteemed highly among the *fruit of thy loins.* And unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work for the *fruit of thy loins,* his brethren, which shall be of great worth unto them, even to the bringing of them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers.
[11] But a seer will I raise up out of the *fruit of thy loins;* and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the *seed of thy loins* -- and not to the bringing forth my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them.
[12] Wherefore, the *fruit of thy loins* shall write; and the *fruit of the loins* of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the *fruit of thy loins,* and also that which shall be written by the *fruit of the loins* of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the *fruit of thy loins,* and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.
[18] And the Lord said unto me also: I will raise up unto the *fruit of thy loins;* and I will make for him a spokesman. And I, behold, I will give unto him that he shall write the writing of the *fruit of thy loins,* unto the *fruit of thy loins;* and the spokesman of *thy loins* shall declare it.
[19] And the words which he shall write shall be the words which are expedient in my wisdom should go forth unto the *fruit of thy loins.* And it shall be as if the *fruit of thy loins* had cried unto them from the dust; for I know their faith.
[21] Because of their faith their words shall proceed forth out of my mouth unto their brethren who are the *fruit of thy loins;* and the weakness of their words will I make strong in their faith, unto the remembering of my covenant which I made unto thy fathers.
Great videos. Love them!
Thanks so much!
Great video and always you are very articulated. I have problems with the quote that The Book of Mormon is the most correct book when is evident that even with re-editing it still contains problems. JS also said that there was no Greek in the BoM and still we have the word Christ in there. JS somehow would overexagerate is statements and somehow it still lingers in the modern times.
Great points! Thanks for the kind words!
I don't have the link, but I remember reading on r/exmormon a post from a independent translator that was hired to do an independent translation of the Book of Mormon into a less common language. He had a huge breakdown of all the challenges, confusing sentence construction, unclear pronouns, contradictions, and confusions. Super far from correct, and it was very hard and confusing to translate because of it. He really struggled to identify the intended meaning of a lot of passages.
Even if you focus only on doctrine for "correctness", its clearing condemning polygamy by Solomon and David. Alma the elder gives confusing discussions of heaven and hell and the nature of grace, etc...
Its all just problematic
@@tysonhoffman7443 I agree, in the first books of BoM there is a clear inclination that JS had a trinitarian view. Like you stated, polygamy is seen as a really bad thing, the concept of Hell being a lake of fire and torment.
It is really impressive that JS changed doctrines in BoM and noone found it strange.
JS makes Jesus the Creator and a total separate identity from God, there is no Hell, now paradise/heaven is divided in 3 different places, polygamy now is demanded by God, and so on.
If the BoM is the most correct book like JS asserted then why the stories don't add up to the doctrines he created? It has so many gaps making the reliability of BoM dubious.
Correction: The Book of Mormon is the most correct book that gets a man nearer to God as long as he ABIDES by and follows the teachings and principles that are taught. The Book of Mormon never claimed to be the most Perfectly spelled book on the earth, it is the most correct book.
@@germanslice @germanslice I don't want to start a debate why I don't believe in the BoM, having Christ in there is not a "spell" error, the word is correctly written, JS claiming greek was not present that's different. There are so many points where one could point how BoM is not correct but I am more than certain you already know them.
I understand you believe that BoM is the most correct book and that's fine, you are free to believe in what you want the same way I don't believe BoM to be the word of God and neither free of historical erros.
I have always wondered why there needs to be "another testament of Jesus Christ"? The Bible has always been sufficient to carry on the work of God. The Book of Mormon is basically a historical account with a lot of New Testament thrown in to give it the impression of being authentic. Mormon doctrine is contained in other books, such as Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and the Book of Abraham. If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was the restoration of the original church founded by Jesus, I think it would not look like what the Mormon Church looks like today. A typical LDS ward doesn't look that much different structurally from any Protestant Church. Joseph Smith borrowed different things from the various churches of his day, perhaps the office of elder from the Presbyterian Church. There were also other churches, like the Baptist, that believed in total immersion baptism and not baptism for infants.
5:15 That looks like what a lot of kids do when having to write papers in school of a certain length, add meaningless filler in hopes the teacher won't notice. It usually doesn't work in school, and Joseph's attempt here was just a lame. Why anyone would take the BOM seriously is beyond me.
The Brass Plates, duh! Oh, wait… that’s circular reasoning, isn’t it?
It weighed 8 lbs. just the weight of Joseph’s head where they existed.
Hahaha!
When did the Angel come and retrieve the gold plates?
This is not difficult, they know if the plates were gold and they were X"=H X"=W X"=L they would easily weigh 200lb, not 40-50 pounds
Many times I have heard that the only changes made to the BoM were grammatical corrections like punctuation. Why does the church push this narrative when it clearly changed some doctrine from first to second editions?
Because it makes the claim that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book, and that is not bolstered by the idea that core elements of its theology are changed, so they'd rather we just read the edition we have now and not worry too much!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Not a good man way of thinking. Makes you wonder what else is being hid.
Metal plates were not uncommon in the iron age. So common in fact that this fact may have been known in Joseph's time.
Thanks for letting me know, if you have any sources on Iron Age plates, feel free to share!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON There are metal plate inscriptions from as early as the Early Bronze Age such as the gold plate of Gishakidu of Umma , Byblos Syllabic (although some of them are technically plates, not codices) until the late Bronze Age such as Azarbaal plate (well, "spatula" actually). In the Iron Age there are a lot more examples, such as the Orphic gold tablets, and Sargon II construction document (currently housed in the Louvre, highly recommend a visit ... avoid the Mona Lisa!); Finally, and to end on a twist, are the Jordan Lead Codices. The only reason I mention those is that this is probably the only time you'll hear Daniel C Peterson condemn an ancient metal codex as a fraud.
Darrach brilliant, thanks for sharing! Are any of those the same size or containing the same volume of text as the gold plates? Enough to fill 1500 or so pages (bearing in mind the sealed 2/3)?
have you ever ever ever seen even a picture of a book made of gold? in all the world can you cite one picture of a book made of gold?
much easier to believe joseph smith got fronted some money, some sucker wanted proof, joseph smith worked up a fantastic story, some fool came up with more money, some fool (martin harris) mortgaged his farm to do the work of the lord, and in the end an angel came and took the plates away.
anyway, that's old mormonism. new mormonism is a rock in a hat. the mormon church even published a picture of the rock.
Sounds like tin dinner plates to me...
The devils Bible only compares
Yes that is a real book, and Bible.. more interesting read then bom
int that convienent. Spritual eyes, and the plates were taken away.
Milk before meat as they say.
Or just meat... never.
In what sense?
@@NEMOTHEMORMON They use this expression when they want to save difficult truths and teachings until later.
Showing Smith translating from the plates instead of the hat. Or not mentioning that many of the witnesses either left the church, were related to or affiliated Smith in some way, or that more than a few of them claimed only to see the plates with "spiritual" eyesight, are all examples of milk before meat.
So... if the Book of Mormon is the most correct book... why was it anti-polygamy? And why was it anti-Secret Combinations (e.g. Masonic Rituals and Shell Corporations)? ;)
Where is the B of Mormon, if its written by the people in America, and JS says its written by lamanites. Why doesnt BofM go back to the rightful owners.
So Nemo what is your argument,the gold plate is not real or what,is not everything that physical beings can understand with their carnal knowledge(prob.1:7)
I think the weakest part of your video is your argument that Joseph Smith was incapable of carrying the gold plates while running from his assailants. There are alternative explanations; perhaps the story was exaggerated, or maybe he had more strength than we give him credit for. In my opinion, your reasoning here is similar to that of people who claim that Joseph Smith could not have translated the plates unless he had help from God. There are plenty of other, reasonable explanations. I'm not saying that Joseph's potential inability to carry the plates isn't improbable, I just wouldn't claim it to be absolute evidence of his fraud.
Nor did I claim it to be absolute evidence. I was very aware of being careful not to make an argument from incredulity, having just called out Saints Unscripted. However, the weight of the plates, as a form of evidence, should cause us to question the likelihood of that story, rather than its possibility. I agree the story was likely exaggerated. Thanks for keeping me on my toes!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Makes sense. I misunderstood what you were trying to say. Thanks for everything you do.
No worries, please keep feeding back, gotta make sure my videos are as clear as possible!
I’m not sure we all realize how heavy gold is. That much gold weighs well over 60lbs. If the plates were truly gold, they would weight over 200lbs. To hold something that heavy and run with it would be near impossible. If they were some kind of gold alloy, say 50-50, it’d still weigh 50-100lbs. Try running with that in your hands. Maybe the angel lied and they weren’t really gold. Or maybe its a trick question....imaginary objects don’t weigh anything. ;)
@@jeffb6350 haha, true. Still, it's interesting to analyze, see from different angles
Humm this is ignorant more people saw the plates than he claims. The plates were held by men who said they weighted
60-80 pounds. At least get your anti mormon claims correct
What you missed were Jesus Christ and his Father. Anyone can ask of God in the name of Jesus Christ, and if you ask with real intent, having faith in Christ, the Holy Ghost will manifest the truth unto you.
But you reject that because you do not really believe in God or Jesus Christ and prefer to rely on the ideas of sinful men.
I don't think its that people don't believe that the Holy Spirit will reveal himself to sincere people with true intent. I think its the subjectivity of the revelation and maybe the subjectivity of the intent that people question.
We find this reasoning in just about every major religion. If you were to ask a Christian or ask a Muslim or ask a Jehovah Witness, why they believe that they have found the truth while others claim they have as well, the most common answer you will receive will sound similar to what you wrote. Everyone claims to have had personal revelation.
Think about it this way. An unbeliever hears a religious message. They are attracted to it and so they begin to speak with those that practice it. They become more interested and so they begin to read their holy books and they are told that God will speak to them if they do. He will reveal the truth to them. So, you have someone that is already prone to believe. They want to believe, and that is why they are taking their time to ask, study and read what is from that faith. They want to believe, yet they have never heard the voice of the Spirit. They have no clue how to discern between God, their own imagination, or the enemy, but because they already desire to believe its true, they interpret any positive feelings as validation from God. Thinking that they are just sincerely asking God "with real intent" they, unbeknownst to them, are really riddled with desire. They want it to be true because they need something more in their life.
This isn't a story of Mormonism. This is a story that comes out of most religions.
The danger in this is thus... We have just taught a person new to our religion to trust whatever pops in their head or brings them chills to believe that is God without any instruction on how to discern God's voice from our own or the enemies.
We should all feel at peace with out beliefs, but we should all vet them as well. What I fear with the Mormons is that they use this belief in their "internal witness" as a way to avoid vetting their discernment of God's voice. I'd wager its so bad that, even if we found a diary of Joseph Smith saying all was a fraud and laughing at all the gullible people, you would still have many Mormons stay with the faith because of this internal witness.
If the voice of the Holy Ghost was real in our lives, then our beliefs should be able to hold up under scrutiny. We shouldn't feel like we are constantly having to spin information. There should be a confidence to put the faith under the microscope.
@@blusheep2 A Christian, a Muslim, or a Jehovah Witness can ask God and receive an answer. The Holy Ghost can witness the truth to anyone. Christians, Muslims, and Jehovah Witnesses all believe in God. Here is what the Holy Ghost does:
3 Nephi 11:32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath givenunto me; and I bear record of the
Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me: and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
Nemo and his friends are going to provide proof. 1 Nephi 11:36 Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
So just watch this war Nemo is waging and see how well he does.
Just another man made ghost story. I follow a lifeway of ceremonies, and my son and I are honest enough to state that we prefer our ghost stories to yours. Be honest and get humble. ALL of this is man made narrative. We humans are really a pitiful lot. We should be out planting and gathering and sharing with no matter who and leaving this stuff alone. Wasting our time in these arguments. Man’s stuff.