Making a MODELLER FEEL like a REAL AMP
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- Опубликовано: 4 авг 2024
- For my Presets visit: johnnathancordy.gumroad.com/ With respect, while Rhett Shull's video on making a Helix/HX Stomp or other modellers "Feel" like a Real Amp was useful for other reasons, I think for those who are looking to get that "Real Amp" kind of feel, I'd recommend that some different strategies might be what they're looking for, purely because Rhett's advice actually takes you closer toward a polished studio sound.
So this video will take you through some thoughts on Global Eq, Cab low and high cuts, subtractive eq, compression at the end of the signal chain and probably some other things... 
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All fair points man! I tend to set my modelers to sound and feel like I would want them under a mic, on stage or in the studio because in my experience that consistently gives me the best results across the board. Fair criticisms, I’ll try some of your methods mentioned here. Thanks for posting!
Hey Rhett! Hope this is taken in the spirit I intended which wasn't at all to bash you chap!
As said in the video I do think it's absolutely good advice for any person to try with a modeller anyway!
Rhett Shull RESPECT! @Johnathan good viewpoint too bud. This is how community grows with each other and not against well done guys I own an HX now and this is good stuff...
Top blokes
you probably already know, but on the Helix, the cut on the CAB block is more mellow than the ones on eq block and global settings. On cabs they're around -6db for low cut and -12db for hi cut, but on the eq block they're basically doubled (-12db and -24db). This is why, expecially at stage volume, if you do an hi cut on the cab you can ear the hi frequencies way above your cut. This can be useful for tame some of the fizz without losing the sparkle
John Cordy, I think it's much better if you didn't mentioned any names in title of your video. Personally, creating another video with the content of MAKING A MODELLER FEEL LIKE A REAL AMP expressing your own points without comparing it or contradicting other's idea is more respectful since we all have different taste regarding the tone and how the guitar reacts to our playing styles.
Love what you do and the way in which you do it. Very earnest, very gentlemanly I'm very thankful for folks like you, and also Rhet Shull, and glad to subscribe to both of you. Thank you for sharing!
Interesting, well explained and respectful.....I learned from this, and Rhett’s original video......well done and thank you gentlemen.
Great video mate! As well as the video of Rhet Shull. It’s great to listen to different advices from you guys and discuss about it. Thanks again!
A real refreshing insight, you can spend so much time eq'ing out notches of unwanted noise and lose so much character in your signal. I have removed all my eq and did as you say along with the 150hz eq bump between the amp and ir. Sounds great
Personally, I think you’re a genius for thinking this much in depth about how a real tube-driven guitar amp produces the sound that we all love and feel. Thank you for this info as I’m trying to get my HX Stomp dialed in. 👍🏽👍🏽
This is the video I've been seeking . The info about how to make a modeler feel like a tube amp. It's a feel thing which is what makes me like real amps over modelers, but I am looking at ths modelers now since so many say they have fixed this.
I’ve used a low cut below 250 and a high cut above 8k since I bought my modeler based on you tube advice. I am now going to rethink and re-listen to my presets. Fantastic video. Loved the examples. I also understand what Rhett is saying. Kudos to you both for helping everyday guitar players improve their playing and their tone.
I am way late to this Video, but new to the stomp. After reading through a majority of comments my conclusion is he's talking about how to Make your Modeller FEEL like and amp. All Great advice from both gentlemen thanks heaps.
It took me almost 3 minutes before I realized that he was the only person in the room. I thought there was a a second person in the background, but it's a mirror.
Haaaaaa
Same here, i thought he's taking a video at work!
I thought he was in a coffee shop until he turned and faced the mirror
This has helped me IMMENSELY with my pod go. I have been getting a little disheartened with tones coming out sounding stale or sterile.
Very helpful, thank you! And I have huge respect for Rhett, and he's a great player and knows all kinds of things from experience, but I think he'd be the first to say that what he put out in his video was just the things that have worked for him - and he's not necessarily an expert on this. I expect he'll respond and take some of your suggestions to heart, or perhaps this can lead to a production discussion/investigation and possible synthesis of ideas.
Very great video. Lot of info. Thanks John.
In lieu of brevity....I simply love this channel 🎸
Great Video! Seriously both you guys are kind and have some good advice! It will help many people achieve their sound. The reality is you have to feel the sound emotionally one way or another :) there is no Right or Wrong. Different players different applications.
Fantastic discussion and advice. Thank you!
Great advice. I have the bottom rolled off on my quad quarter, but could easily have the sound man do it out front. Definitely going to give it a try.
I purchased the Helix about 2 years ago. My current signal chain is 1/4" out to Fender Super Champ X2 head guitar to Ephiphone 1x12 cab w/Eminescence speaker. Turn the voicings off and run it on clean channel Fender Twin channel and run the volume to the level that I want it in my studio and mic for recording or rehearse with it from there. It sounds fantastic! Fast forward to a pandemic setting and rescheduled festival after 2 years I was geeked to show it all off! During sound check I ran into an issue where I couldn't get rid of a solid buzz from the amp- something that I've never heard before (professional sound techs and I tried everything - replacing cords, ground lifts, etc. and burnt a half hour) I ultimately had to drop the head and cabinet and run direct from XLRs to front of house as I was burning from setup time into our sound check time. I was in complete panic mode! All I could think of was that I sold my Vox and awesome pedal rig to invest in this damn computer floor board that sounded great in our rehearsal studio and now I'm f&cked! The only work around last minute was to run XLRs to front of house instead of mic'd cabinet. We played the show, it went off well, but felt defeated. I monitored out of the wedges (sorry, still old school) and what came back at me for my guitar sound was synthetic and dry sounding. I had little to no sustain and it felt digital and shitty! The audience had a great time, but I couldn't get into the gig because in my head I felt like I sounded like people were hearing me through a 1990's Zoom pedal. I'm not a professional touring musician and don't play out nearly as much as many of you do. I value Rhett and I understood and appreciated John's opinions on Rhett's videos. I just want a rig that sound great live, great to rehearse and great to record and I'd be happy. If that means ditching the Helix and going old school....I can accept that. I hate to ditch the helix due to the investment and I do love the versatilty. I've been looking for videos on mic'd up live amps through a helix but haven't found much. If I can't get sustain, feedback and that warm tube feeling through a Helix I'm open to buyers. I assume that you really need an amp on stage to help get the feedback and help with the live feel. A buddy of mine plays shows every weekend and runs front of house through XLR's and loves the helix. Maybe it's all in my setup.Any comments, feedbacks, tips or other videos you've run across would be greatly appreciated! Sorry to hijack this post.
You are a very understated, but massively insightful guy, on quite a few musical disciplines. You recognize that there are myriad ways to do things… I find myself watching over and over.
Zero bombast, heaps of knowledge.
I think I've stumbled upon a game-changing solution to 2 major problems with both home use tube amps and digital modelers not feeling like real amps when turned up to gig volumes. I used three significant pieces of gear. A Line-6 Helix LT, a EVH 5150 III lbx mk 1, and a Bluguitar Nanocab. (Signal chain/connections) guitar into Helix in, Helix headphone out to EVH Power amp return, EVH into Nanocab. (the secret to making it work) For volume use Helix large knob to control tone volume. The EVH's power amp is punchy and powerful but also really dynamic (note: I also replaced every tube in the EVH from the stock Chinese made JJ's to Mesa Boogie branded tubes from sweetwater). The EVH had two VERY IMPORTANT tone controls in the power amp section, Resonance and Presence. When playing digital modelers loud the harshness and brittleness is (for me) impossible to dial out fully. But by using the amp's resonance knob, the tones and (most importantly) the feel of tube amp comes through. In the mix is where the presence knob comes in (start all the way off and blend until the tone sits well in the mix. The other "secret" is the Nanocab by Bluguitar. It is a 14-inch by 10-inch guitar cabinet that has been specifically designed to create and project as close to a 4x12 cab as any other 1x12 cab ever has. It has special porting and resonance as well as an amazing ability to project clearly and evenly. When combined these pieces of gear create a real tube amp experience when playing "bedroom appropriate" levels of volume (quieter than the pick attack on the strings acoustically) but also when cranked too. With the Helix volume knob at 3 o'clock its a quiet 55 db. with the knob at 6 o'clock, it's a gig-worthy 113 db. The tones never get harsh or digital sounding when loud but also maintain the fullness and touch sensitivity when playing quietly.
Awesome - thanks for sharing!
Point1/ compressor idea, totally agree. point two, all amps recorded are eq'd to fix amps inherent issues for recording and live. live, the desk will put a 100hz cut on the amps channel, so in theory, your doing the work for the sound engineer, he may find a frequency that is messed up by the room, so applys a cut. global good for cutting and flattening tone, eq in amp models to boost a desired frequency for cutting in a mix.
I would hi-cut the dog whimps at around 9kHz.
I watched Rhett's video and thought pretty much the same things you've covered here.
The biggest barrier between a real amp in a room and a modeller is the fact that pretty much every cab/speaker sim is purposely trying to emulate the sound of a miked up guitar cab, simply because there is no better way to do it.
Sound made by a guitar cab (or any other object) is 3D. This is very easy to demonstrate simply by moving a mic in relation to the cab/speaker. You are capturing a narrow slice of the overall sound. The sound in the room is impossible to recreate through a different speaker (such as a FRFR monitor) because it is dictated by the physical properties of the cab/speaker and how it reacts with the environment around it. If you try to reproduce it through another speaker, that speaker's own physical properties come into play and it creates it's own 3D sound field which will differ from the original cab/speaker.
The only way to do it would be an approach like the Waza Air, where you have headphones/IEMs and simulate the physical properties of the cab and the room it's in while simulating your ears positions in that virtual space in real time (so the sound changes as you move).
Long story short, if you want to achieve a real amp in the room sound using a modeller, plug it into a power amp, disable the IR/cab sim and use a real guitar cab. Modelling has become very good nowadays but the problems associated with cab/speaker simulation are physical in nature.
napalmhardcore I use the FX Return of an amp with my Headrush and magically it sounds like a real amp.
Interesting discussion, thanks for sharing. It might be a good idea to add a link to Rhett's video in the description, otherwise in a month or so it'll be hard to know exactly which video of Rhett's you're referring to.
John, I'm completely with you. Most IRs having more frequency content, therefore they sounding fuller (better ?). If you using the internal cabs of the Helix you can play with the microphone type and the distance for best results. For all who never listened to the beam of a speaker: It is really harsh! Thanks God for lows and mids!
You are most definitely not an idiot. I'm going to try this now! Thank you.
as a sound engineer who mixes bands every day NEVER cut up to 500 Hz unless you want things to sound thin and paperlike lol . great points I do agree with you and with Rhett I feel he made it to feel and sound like how it would on a record and I actually really like the tips he gave and that's because I record bands,
when I mix live bands I always eq the FOH mix of a band to sound good but leave the monitors to the monitor mixer. you gave great tips for live and he gave great tips for studio
Thank you both! Great advice from both sides, it's just that they are valid for different scenarios and for different tonal preferences I think.
For playing live, the best is I think to utilize both set of ideas: the Helix can be powerful enough to provide two slightly different mixes... If you don't overcrowd your patches it' possible to create two (or even more) semi-parallel paths, one for FOH/FRFR's and one for IEM/headphones.
Only EQing the two differently can already make a huge difference. You can serve FOH well by using a low cut, and possibly leaving more of the high-end to cut through the mix better, while doing the exact opposite for IEM to compensate the tiny in ear speaker harshness, and even add some low end for more of an 'amp in a room' feel.
But this can be taken further.. You might use different amounts of boost for a solo, different amounts of reverb/delay, or even modulation effects. Helix's DSP can handle a lot. I personally use the same dist+amp+IR, then separate the two paths for different EQ, reverb, solo boost and so on....
Another MASSIVE thing for me has been getting rid of that trash noise gate. (At any stage) I could not believe what a difference it made especially in the way the amp/sound felt as I was playing. Even when I set it very low I still noticed the tone suckage. I ended up using an isp decimator for live applications. See my last video for straight live diezel esq tone with no noisegate at all.
SOOOO agree!. Why the heck would boss model the subtle tone suck of the NS-1 into their modelers?! that is one of the only dissapointments of my new GX-100.
Same with the Boss Katana, the noise gate is utterly atrocious!
I think you are correct here and after playing with Helix for a while now and trying various presets here is my solution; I found out the true equalization curve of the sm57 mic placed 1 inch from the cone, created an inverse response using several Helix equalizers. I use this mic setup on every speaker cabinet with no further processing and bingo, all the amps sound and feel great right out of the box. I also set the volume of the monitor so that the audio output is comparable to what the modeled cab and amp would put out. very simple; no low or high cuts, no compressors or shelving required. I don't know why Line6 didn't offer this ability? Note, I also use mainly single coil pups and clean to crunchy sounds.
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Spot on John 💪🏾
Your first point, putting a compressor at the end of the chain increases the delay tail volume but doesn't make the patch sound like a real amp is partially correct. If your "real amp" is using power amp clipping with front of the amp effects, then its doing exactly the same thing the compressor is doing, except hard clipping. The power amp clipping is a limiter, and will cause the delay tails to be louder, and more interesting, ducked away when the guitar is causing the amp to clip, sort of like a pre-delay on the delay.
I watched the same video - and then bought the Michael Britt Custom Presets for Helix Native as I didn't know enough to disagree or agree with Rhett - but I knew the Britt presets are bread and butter reliable and trustworthy. What you miss with a modeller is the musty dusty smell of valves warming up - and the crackles - if they could sell that with the modeller then most would be happier. There really is a lot of bollocks talked about amp sounds in a studio - live is different. Dweezil sounded good live with just the Fractal - so who knows.
Subscribed. Well done. Keep it real.
Valid points and respectfully approached. I watched Rhett’s video and felt the more he tried to attain the elusive “amp in the room” sound, the more sterile the sound became. For the Kemper, it will be interesting to see how the Kemper Kabinet and Kone speakers address this issue. To quote Kemper “They rather bring back the good old "amp-in-the-room" sound”.
I think that will be interesting, I do think a key part of that is the 12" speaker in a cabinet which definitely has a different feel to a FRFR cab in terms of throw, cab design and all that stuff!
The Kemper Kone is a whizzer cone speaker, which is a not very well-behaved full-range speaker. The Kabinet concept seems to be a less exact execution of the Line 6 Powercab.
Oh is it? I must confess I've not looked into it too much!
Daniel Yeh - I believe that Kemper and Celestion have invested far too much time and money in development for the Kone and Kabinet to fail. Still, we need to test them ourselves before jumping to any conclusions.
@@jimmcdougall9973 are they out in the wild yet?
The physics of Sound is a 3X3 block which you and Sholes have nailed. The 3X3 are live-versus-recorded, raw-versus-refined and digital-versus-analog. Refined-recorded-digital sounds have become ear pleasing with all the high-tech studio gear on the market just as refined-recorded-analogue sounds of our favorite old school classic rock stars' recordings were. But refined-live sounds are a challenge from every angle and no mater if digital (emulated) or analog (tube) driven. Most of us players are interested in mastering the quality of live sound on a 10k buget and doing so at non-deafing sound levels in a band context. But there are too many competing forces like FOH, amp restrictions, other band members, other band instruments, auditorium/club size, just for starters. And we guitar players sit in our own little world working on our live tone quality and own craft irrespective of the rest. Tradionally, the only forces that can pull it all together are a good song and a great live-sound engineer. There are no automatic fixes or devices for such on the market and maybe never will be. Guitarists end up playing a sorry fake-it guitar ryththm part possibly saturated with reverb and a 10 second solo. While some beginner players are content playing 5 note 3 chord parts filled with 7 effects, it is not for most of us.
Very valuable…thank you!
Ideally, if you are using a modeler live and want it to sound like an amp, amplify it through a guitar cab and mic that. Obviously turn off cabinet modeling inside you're modeler of choice. If you feel that bass is an issue, turn on a shelf instead of a Low or High-pass and cut a little bit at a time until it sits in the mix well. The sound guy is going to do his thing for front of house, but more often than not what comes out of the monitors is raw guitar signal. The biggest issue the cab on stage solves for is the EQ curvature and lack of a microphone/air in your signal path. IRs sound frickin' amazing nowadays, but they still emulate a mic'd up amp.
Second, I want to emphatically state that it isn't a matter of pushing air. Air is pushed no matter the speaker--that's how a speaker works. The difference is the tube amp volume and compression. Tube amps get louder before they tap out than solid state amplification--to avoid this use an amp with more wattage--if the venue is providing and they don't have that, it's not going to sound the same and you sort of have to live with it --unless you have a power amp and cab like I mentioned above.
The compressor definitely effects delay and reverb sounds after the amp, I would highly recommend compressing before your Delay and Reverb very subtly to glue everything together--it also gives your modeler a bit spongier feel when you want it--vary it preset to preset depending on need. The Kemper has a compression setting on the Amp section--would highly recommend you look into that as well.
I started putting a tube compressor after the amps and cabs, I think it sounds more open and the notes sound more clear, I don't think it sounds more like a real amp, but it for my use it kinda sounds better. I have an HD500X.
Ps: I always put my reverb and delays at the end of the chain.
I both agree and Disagree, it is tough to make modelers sound like a real amp, and while the concept does not seem logical because modelers emulate a signal chain, not just a speaker, but yet when you mic a speaker, you are trying to capture how that speaker really sounds, that is why you buy amps and record them to begin with, and then go through mics, and preamps, to maintain that sound from the amps speaker, and into the recording.
I had a Fender Super Reverb 74 Original, and SS fender amps, I have an Egnater Tweaker, a Kemper, Strymon Iridium, Tech 21 Kotzen and UAD Plugins. The trouble starts with modleres starts with GAIN and BASS and TREBLE relations, and how they react with each other, with what speaker, this is where tube amps excel, and this is why they feel like they do, specifically low/mid gain amps at higher volumes.
When modelers/profilers try to add BASS frequency FROM the gain increase, it is just NEVER accurate, especially the case with the KEMPER, even though the sound is more curate than other modelers, because it is a separate EQ that does not react with the pre/power amp like the real amp, , and when try to profile an amp that has POWER amp od/distortion, it will either be too boomy, or gainy, same with TREBLE, although it will be dynamic, but it will be either too driven to get a semi-sparkly tone, or too dull, this is why it is so difficult for almost all digital stuff to get the correct VOX AC15/30 cleans right, so ENTER compressors... and endless tweaking and "fixing"
But it is not to say that it is impossible, the most accurate in my opinion, are the UAD plugins, specifically, the GAV 19, and the Strymon Iridium, these are the best ones that sound and feel like my tube amps, and when I push the monitors (hs80s) to higher volume, everything comes crisp and clear as it should be, and this way everything reacts with the speakers is just as good as my tubes, sound and feel, and Sometimes sound better when recorded.
Hello, whot global setings you use in hx stomp(in and out-instrumet or line)?thx
I dont know how I missed this video. Do you have a mirrored wall?
Can you speak to what frequency range you enjoy in your room? I can’t bare anything under like 85Hz
Very good points!
This is why I still don't like in-ears and modelers/cab sims, because of that missing low end which you have and feel with a real (tube) amp and cabs.
Everytime I can use my amp and cabs on stage if feel so much happier and therefore will play so much better. For the FOH guy it's the exact opposite of course.
The thing is, if you never really have experienced what it feels like when playing on stage through a real cracked tube amp with real cabs, you will have no problems with In- ears and a polished modeling sound.
For me, coming from playing a lot live with a crancked tube amp and pedals, it still sucks!
I have a ton of low end on my fractal tube heads, gotta make sure your passing the whole signal along the chain, preamp-poweramp-cab out to front of house !
@@rogermoore1233 , it is about what you hear and feel through your in-ears vs a real cab on stage.
The push of the air from a real cab behind you on stage is very different from wha you get back through in-ears from going direct.
And a real good tube amp still has a more dynamic and open sound then what modelers produce. It is simulation of the real thing and still not the same.
It is the same as a real Fender Rhodes piano vs a plugin. If you realy know what it is like to play on a real one even the most expensive plugin doesn’t give you the same experience.
Have you ever played live through a real good tube amp an Cab on stage?
Depends on the cab your playing through, guitar cab or frfr, you would definitely need high /low cut if your going though frfr.
Yep, as discussed I do use high cuts if I'm aiming for a smooth/gainy lead tone!
I think with modellers you need to differ if you're going to play "Live" (or in your Living Room with Headphones or whatever) or in a Recording Studio environment. I agree with Reth in "Studio"-situations (although i did multiple records with just the "raw" amp sound and everything else was applied during the mixing process). Whenever i'm just playing i want to "feel" the "amp in a room" sound as much as POSSIBLE. What's allways missing is the rattling cabinet and the room reflections/rattling. But for this reason i LOVE the Headrush "Balanced" IRs (using the Headrush Gigboard) because they are just a lot of hell full sounding. For that exact reason i'm also using Overloud TH-U Ampsim, because Overloud did something to their Cabsims that makes them absolutely full and bassy (in a good way) sounding, which i've never heard from any other Ampsim (tried a lot). Most Modellers excell in "Studio Sound" territory but are failing in "Amp in the room" feel. Just my 2cents.
Haven't heard of that OverLoud thing - got a link?
@@johnnathancordy Hi Jonathan, have a look here overloud.com/products/th-u-full and here (if you like) ruclips.net/video/ERQiOiG5qvo/видео.html . BTW great channel you have and you are a real good guitarist. :-)
Any amplitube users here? The room settings on the amps is extremely realistic and rarely have to shelf off any EQ
Been using modelers for ten years doing live shows opening for national artists.
The trick to setting up a good modeling sound is to design the patch at stage volume. Just like a tube amp, a modeler actually does change at high volumes. The highs and lows spike and the mids can get lost. Think warm, not sizzle.
Use as little gain in the structure as needed to get the feel and sound you are looking for. Too much gain introduces high frequencies that can result in a fizzy sounding modeler anomaly that can get fatiguing over the course of a show or rehearsal.
great advice
Here’s my two bobs worth:
The fact that we now have now these possibilities in modellers to fine tune the sound in the studio or at a gig is quite simply brilliant.
I personally prefer shelf EQ’s over drastic high and low cut. I also concur with you that fine tuning the cabinet high and low pass seems to work more naturally and lately I’ve found that tweaking the mic distance can also help to tame low end bloom in the live situation. Depending of course on the room;)
The global eq is my last line of defence and I make my presets initially without it.
Compression at the end of the chain can clamp the dynamic but only if you let it! It’s possible to tweak the LA comp parallel mix too don’t forget.
I also ride compressor output level (among other things) with an expression pedal to bring solos up for example.
That said, compression can get overdone and can really only be set up using proper metering.
To bring my own presets into some form of level continuity, I park my HX Stomp Master volume at 12 o’clock (a useful, simple visual reference) and measure with an RTW peak level meter on my desk while working them through.
Rhett’s videos sound vastly superior to just about anything else on YT, he genuinely knows what he’s talking about and honestly, I think you’re on thin ice using him as bait. Perhaps you could show us how you tweak cabs with snapshots as you mentioned? It would be more constructive.
Do keep up the good work, i sincerely enjoy your playing and your presets;)
Bait? I think you misunderstand his intentions .
Hey Paul thanks for your comments and feedback!
Not sure it's particularly bait, I was asked my opinion on the advice, and I think Rhett's suggestions are great for getting a more polished and balanced response from a modeller?!
Hopefully it doesn't come across as bait, as I say in the video and description etc, it's great advice in general, just I thing it's actually taking you closer to a polished/balanced guitar tone rather than closer to a "real amp" kind of feel?
@@TheRycooder Click bait title I think is what he means. John states his points well and intentions are clear.
The reason I dont use the global high cut cause on. The clean channels it sounds great normally. Its the high gain that needs the high cut
Pulling troublesome frequencies out of your tone is a very good thing, particularly with digital modelling solutions. I've been doing it for years. I'm not the first person to start doing this, and Rhett Shull certainly isn't either. To give credit where it's due, check out some Line 6 POD HD500X videos by Peter Hanmer. Get rid of those painful, headache inducing frequencies, and your gear will sound, and FEEL better. It's like having an all around sweet spot. Please check out Peter Hanmer. There's some good tips and advice to be found on his channel. And don't be put off because it's mostly POD based. The same principles apply to the current generation of digital gear. Oh, and there a lot of inaccuracies in RS's content but hey, he's only human. It's just not necessarily very helpful some of the time. But the same goes for many so-called 'RUclipsrs'. And while there might not seem much need for low and high cuts when listening through little speakers/monitors at low/bedroom volumes, you're going to need them once your pushing out some serious db's at gig volumes.
Hey Steve, I certainly didn't say it's a bad thing, or that it wasn't better, just that many real amps actually have troublesome frequencies, big booming low end and also harsh highs if you stick your head down by the speaker.
Rhett's advice is good, solid and will get you a more balanced, studio ready tone - but the title was about making it feel like a real amp - which rolling of the low end (especially if you're using headphones) can kind of have the opposite effect?
And yep global EQ becomes super useful in a live gigging situation!
@@johnnathancordy I only use the global eq on my helix for my own frfr on stage monitor, any additional eq for FOH gets done at the desk. I've been using digital modelling gear since the mid 1990's, starting with the ROLAND GP-100, so I'm not a newbie to this stuff. Regarding high and low cuts on Helix and HX Stomp, have you compared doing it in the cab/ir block vs doing it with an eq block? The difference is huge. Personally I use the parametric EQ, which means I can also cut some of those horrible frequencies with the same block. I've now got a live tone that sounds and feels incredibly close to one of my favourite amps, the Marshall JVM. Does it sound great through tiny speakers? No it doesn't. Does it sound and feel awesome at live volumes? Oh yes. Better than it ever sounded when using a conventional rig of guitar Poweramp and cab (Rocktron Velocity and V30 loaded cab).
@@stevegardiner8473 yeh someone else just pointed out that they have to go between acoustic guitar and electric on the same gig which takes global eq off the menu.
On the Hx stomp I rarely have the space free to run an eq block
But dont guitar speakers have a pronounced EQ curve? So after 5k the graph dips down and down towards 20k, whereas in the stomp its more flat, meaning high frequencies are same volume as lower ones?
Well yes guitar speakers have a pronounced eq curve, as do the speaker emulations in the Hx stomp. You can check it out in your DAW, but if you turn the speaker cabs off you'll see that there's lots of content at the 10k and above mark that the speaker emulations begin to attenuate
@@johnnathancordy I see. But personally if I dont cut high frequencies above 6.5k I find it sounds fizzy and digital especially with distortion. In fact my distorted patches are pretty much all capped at 5.5k. With clean it doesnt matter but as soon as you introduce gain I find that it doesnt sound or react like a real amp and I need to do all the high cut stuff.
@@StevenJoseph yep this is some of the same stuff that I do....however I think there might be some other strategy as for instance the CabZeus stereo thing I've tried with the origin effects RevivalDrive and exactly the same thing happens, with the fizzy sounding stuff, and with a Suhr ACE cab SIM...so what I'm thinking is I want to find another way to avoid the fizz for situations where I can't rely on a high cut
Thanks for the video. My biggest issue is Like when I roll off my guitars volume knob, on my amp it gets this Strat chime.. I don’t even have to change to a clean channel. I can get a clean sound on my rhythm distortion channel… where as if I roll off my volume knob with this pedal it’s gets this Slappy Spanky garbage sound. I’ve tried shutting off the noise gate and it just becomes a white noise hissy fit. I am really disappointed in it because my boss ME 70 pedal destroys this thing with tone, and that thing is like 15 years old. It doesn’t really matter what I do. It’s always just saturated garbage Buzzy sound. I’ve tried downloading your IR package that you sell on your website. It definitely improved the sound but it still just sounds like garbage compared to my dual rectifier and black star HT distortion pedal. I can get a warm, Erik Johnson, Joe Satriani type sound Out of that and the response is amazing on all dynamics. I’m really having some dynamic issues with this pedal. The only reason I have to use this pedal is because I joined a band that does not use amps, and they have essentially forbidden me to bring an amp. I’m like well then we’re gonna have to step these petals up because this thing sounds like a freaking toy to me.
The dog doesn't like Bossa Nova apparently. Good and interesting points.
Absolutely hates a bossa
So what is it about the Synergy amp product that is different than the Helix and Kemper digital stuff?
Tube preamps into a tube poweramp.
Willowisp So does that mean you have to have a tube power amp for those to work?
The Synergy amp takes Synergy tube preamp modules. The amp itself is practically just a tube poweramp. They have released other products that take the modules but it is based around this idea. In my opinion, you can practically anything and run it through a tube poweramp and cab it will sound good. Using modelers, AxeFX Line6 and Kemper through a tube poweramp and cab sounds very good.
Willowisp So that means you gotta buy both the tube preamp and the tube power amp. That’s insane. You might as well just buy the combo amp you want.
@@bjamminsincebirth3494 The concept behind Synergy amps is that you can have multiple tube preamps that are more portable and easily switched between. If you just want the sound of a single combo amp then yes, you might as well buy that.
Idk.. I had a non-powered kemper for like 3 months. Really got into the hype and wanted it to be the next big thing... Sadly though I never got a great sound out of it and went back to real amps... it’s possible, (probable) that I could of done something better, but sense I went to amps again I haven’t looked back 🤷♂️ good studio tool but not an “amp in the room” by any means.
Great advice from both of you. I would have titled your video something like "Why I disagree with Rhett Shull on his video about making a modeller feel like a real amp". Your title comes across a bit snarky in my opinion. Regardless, I appreciate the advice both of you provide. Thanks.
I think you’re exactly right about the amp in the room thing. But listen to what we are saying the amp in the room. Not the amp in the room with your head right off the speaker cap. I used to play 212 music man, 100 W guitar amp at Church, standing beside the amp sounded great to me amp in the room. Jump down and the people in front their heads were ear level of where the speakers were and it was so bright that it knocked off the ladies beehive haircuts lol I have a line 6 Vetta head Attached to 412 speaker. The same thing happens I get a cool tone but then I’ve bend over a little bit or get in front of the speakers and it sounds totally different. So modelers my opinion can sound just like any amplifier. Obviously it’s how it’s modeled. Take your helix maybe run it through a real cabinet and you may be surprised I don’t know. I play my helix through a head rush powered speaker and I have two of them. I like to set up my aunt models with microphones that are 4 to 6 inches away, so it captures a little bit of the room sound and then I like to cut off some of the Buzzy frequencies I do like the Lows but obviously not in a band mix I feel like I get a great in the room I would love to have a tube head of a Marshall and just hear what it sounds like without a cabinetand compare it with a model without a cabinet I imagine if you synchronize those that you probably couldn’t tell the difference anyway that’s my thought on the whole thing. I love guitar amps I love tube amps but I can’t afford them. I love my helix.
Nothing compares to the feel of a real amp!
Do you mean the skin like plastic covering on an amp?
For me I go down to 70htz and up to 5000khtz for hard driven tone. For clean, up to 6500 sometimes a little higher. Over that and you will get lose cymbal clarity performing live. Under 70 it muds ups bass and kick drum. I think it depends on what you are doing depending on the performance. Im more of a metal and hard rock player. All ideas are great to try out. Sharing knowledge and trying out someone else's ideas are what I love about music.
So let's have some amp-in-a-room patches then!
Strange thing about modellers is that we all spend huge amounts of time and menu diving to make it sound like a tube amp. By the time you take the modeller and an frfr box it’s no more convenient than a tube amp. However I still want an fm3.
I think everyone who sells and promotes profiles and patches
Should tell how He uses and adjusts his overall volume and headroom. There should be a reference point like daw clipping and such. I am saying this because many people don't play their modelers through a Daw. Just my thinking
I think your suggestion would be good information to have, but there are a huge number of variables that can impact sound. I wonder if these starting points would really get you where you'd need to be for optimal performance. No room is acoustically perfect, for one. My combo amp can sound completely different in one room than another. So while a patch might be more useful with that info, I wonder if you wouldn't need to greatly adjust anyhow? Just thinking out loud. I'm sure them offering suggestions would make the patch more legitimate.
@@alexbreyer6921 I agree with the huge number of variables you say and of course that no room is acoustically perfect should be takesn into consideration. But patch level adjustion is a huge part of the wanted "amp in a room" sound. Not so in a mix recording sound. I was tempted to post my opinion for this matter because its something very subjective
Hi, great tutorial by you and Rhett Shull. However i got one question. Do you use reverb/delay for rhythm patch?(High/Low gain)
his tips are very good and useful and your are too, depends to taste but you really have a ponit. Nice video man
This is NOT intended as a disrespectful video, as the advice in Rhett's video is actually really solid for getting a smoother, more polished sound out of Modellers! Check it out here
ruclips.net/video/J02heFTwEXY/видео.html
You want to make your modeler feel like an amp? Ditch the cab models and IRs, and use the speaker models in Powercab instead. 🤘😉
Trying to sound like a real amp in the room just seems to be missing the point. I want it to sound like my favorite amps on a record and my Kemper does that. My profiles of my Matamp’s and my actual Matamp are indistinguishable on recordings. Getting a better, more lively feel when tracking or playing live is hugely important. For me that was partly making better profiles, a few minor tricks but also just time. I also track my Kemper into a stereo 1073 clone which helps. The soft clipper with a little gain and backing off the amp gain a hair also really makes the Kemper more touch sensitive.
I like the sound of modelers just fine. I want that tube *FEEL* so badly!
Thanks for that low end tip! I always take a lot of bass out because that’s how I roll, but maybe I need to add some back in to get my vibes back!
This is why Im looking forward to you getting your hands on a Simplifier. This thing replicates like 95% percent of what a real tube amp does. Plus it has a resonance control which replicates the interaction between the speaker and output transformer. Which affects how the way the low end feels. The eq is a real passive tone stack, the controls are very interactive with one another. The lowest frequency it produces is 60hz. I found that applying what Rhett did with the EQ helps me in a live context better. Cause the Simplifier is a lot more accurate compared to digital emulators, it’s closer to the real thing in feel, sound and the frequency range of an actual tube amp. Also many of those frequency range/response charts of guitar speakers are from audio testings where the speaker is hooked to an infinite baffle. Which doesn’t really translates accurately to a normal guitar cab baffle. The speaker might be able to produce those frequencies but the amp and the cab will naturally attenuate or cut those frequencies.
TRied em all.. Had a Kemper, HX effects etc...A real Amp has that feel and just doesn't sound digital...No contest ...
Most people who feel this way misunderstand what is being modeled. It's never going to sound or feel like an amp in the room, because it's not supposed to. If you mix your amp and listen to the recorded sound and then compare to the DI of Kemper or helix there is very little difference. What IRS do is modeled a mixed cab.
So modelers are modeling the sound of a recorded guitar, or the sound you get out of FOH
And you didn't realise that before you bought it? Digital can never truly replicate the infinite fidelity of analogue.
HX Effects are used with REAL AMPS.
@@ahighervibe4086 yeah they are, doesn’t mean they sound great. I will say in my experience the HX effects sound better into a real tube amp then the same into Helix modeling. But my analog effects sound even better into my tube amp.
In comparison the Helix into my Twin sounded and felt terrible compared to my analog rig. A lot had to do with the gating. Turn if off and it’s way better, but still not the same.
Only guitarists care about how a real amp sounds like. As soon it goes on a track it will be cut to fit the track, you will never hear your amazing amp. It’s the truth I’m a guitarist (played for about 25 years) and producing for about 10 years. And in todays production not many people even want to hear a guitar on their track 😂. Sad to say guitars kind of have become a underground thing. With all that said a amp in a room with you and your guitar will always sound the best. At least for us guitarist that have worked usually pretty hard to find our sound.
The issue for me has been that modellers, (1), never sound natural, and (2) Live through a real amp is harsh and horrible. I would love to fund a modeller that didn't require an additional 1500 in FRFR Powered cabinet to use and , consequently, sound like listening to a guitar amp through listening cone, Or better said( processed sound) . The latest tone master pro has the most organic sound I have heard for a modeller but still dies out on mid to high gain models where the more effects you add concentrates that processed sound. The other issue is that an an amp output stage isn't necessarily flat response. THis market is pointed at musicians who almost never make a stage performance and its too expensive.
I put a limiter at the very end of the chain to emulate “sag”
There’s absolutely no way to make a KEMPER sound like an amp in a room ...I owned one, not going to happen. Most people go FOH or record with them which in the end sounds like a recorded amp.Hearing a KEMPER and real amp on a recording is different, I can barely hear the difference ... I usually assume the lesser sound is the real amp, most times the KEMPER will sound better unless you record the amp in a well equipped studio. That’s my take on it. Cool video. Cheers
Yeh - I wonder if the Kemper Kabinet thing might be a bit different feel-wise?
Depending on the amp I think there are ways to get closer. I run one set of outputs to a small set of Neumann monitors. However, my Kemper is in the same room as my decent 2.1-channel stereo so I run the second outputs to my higher end Paradigm 12-inch powered sub in my stereo. I roll the bass cut-off to 80 hz (I think) and when played at modest volume (with a good profile) there is ample low-end response in my room that I'm getting the same room resonances I get with a real amp and 212 cab and you can feel the low-end in the Kemper when playing the guitar. Is a real amp and cab still better...likely, but in absence of having both set up to go back and forth the Kemper with monitors/subwoofer takes it to another level compared to just the small monitors. This works best for 'cleaner' amps and starts to breakdown when trying to recreate large, high gain amps. I tried this set-up on a whim and was amazed the difference the low end from the subwoofer made to the Kemper sounding closer to a real amp in the room. M Britt's FTR37 profile through this setup was pretty convincing to me and my Brother-in-Law who was visiting over Christmas.
I sold it after a year. Even for recording kemper lacks a layer of realness, attack and harmonic content. In a mix and if you are not playing, its makes the trick, but i am so happy to throw the kemper. All the doubts were gone..it was like a religion, every body telling you that you are the problem not the kemper. But at the same time the bandmates and me couldn't hear me or it was too loud. A real pain in the ass. I miss the new reverbs, thats all.
@@abheceshabemuskk3531 what are you using now out of interest? Thanks for sharing your experience!!
@@johnnathancordy victory kraken with helix FX. Plus a TS clone, a pharaoh fuzz clone, and a neunaber reverb.
Btw, even the loop send (preamp out) to a random IR sounds much better than any of the thousands of kemper profiles I had.
I come at it another way. I think this new technology is absolutely brilliant, it is great live, in the studio and for practicing, it is only getting better and better and people trying to dismiss it are either being paid to, or they have a lot of old gear and they are terrified its resale value is going to collapse.
They want it to be 2010 forever and want to always dismiss the new technology no matter how good it gets.
It is all just self serving contempt. It serves them to have contempt for the new thing, so they do.
Ludites weren't rational, the weren't respectful of older ways and traditions, they didn't think the old ways were better, they were just terrified they would lose their jobs.
Let's remember that.
I bought a pod go and so disappointed of how thin and sythetic it sounds. But played Fractal before, it sounded so impressive, feel even better then real amp.
There are some cool tones to be found in the POD Go, it just takes a bit of knowing what works for you in my experience?
does anyone else also feel the caothic energy beaming out of this video?
No one wants the sound of a real amp in the room on a recording. If you did, studios would mic rooms not cabs and everything would sound like a 50s sun records recording. People want the engineered sound they hear on the radio and they want it that way live. Its funny how people say they want things but don't like it when they get them. If you want a "real amp" then play a "real amp". Modeling should be used to create new and unique sounds not trying to recreate the sound and feel of a 59 bassman or vox ac30. Everyones heard those sounds all the time for 60 years now.
Or they would sound like Clapton on the Beano album if good enough
I do get what you mean and totally agree with you, creating new guitar amps sounds combining virtual amps could be a new way to. Did the old folks not custom their real amps and added tons of pedals just so to sound different? Hope this virtual modeling trend become an affordable way for future guitarist to carry on the torche.
You dont have to appologize for anything Johnathan.....Rhett Shull, although an ok guitar player and seemingly nice guy, is still just another guy on youtube.
I think he's great and the advice in is video is solid for getting pro-sounding polished guitar tone!
cordy vs shull boxing match
How dare you criticize Rhett. JK thanks for the advice
It’s all splitting hairs and a matter of personal opinion and to which frequencies you respond to, in a live situation with a band it’s all subjective to room conditions, (reflections, etc...). All that low end you’re talking about is gone when the bass player is playing and any good sound man will dump a lot of low end off the guitar to keep the mix from being muddy....
Yep, and when the sound man does that he will have ruined the feel of your guitar in your ears. It's happened to me many times!
That’s why I run a direct line to the board line from my HX and use the other out to my Mesa for monitoring so I can still keep the tone intact on stage....
@@timwilliams4419 yeh that's more or less what I found works best. Or run your own little mixer too that is dodgy sound man independent!
I guess I don;t understand why you did not reach out to Rhett and let know what you think instead of a video saying he is wrong. I don't know Rhett but what I hate aobut online people is their lack of courage. Just talk to they guy, let him know what you think and why and give him a chance to response via his page. Seems easy to me, but everybody has to make a video about why someone is wrong. Personally, I am tired of it.
If FOH engineers are legit shelving lows at 500Hz, someone needs to get f'n FIRED. That is COMPLETE blasphemy, most would never take NEARLY that much off in a produced recording. I can understand carving out some 115-120Hz to get rid of the "WOOB-WOOB" in your tone and then shelving at 100Hz, but once you start hitting 150, 200Hz with a shelf, your guitar starts sounding like it's being played inside of a styrofoam cup.
As for higher gain settings, man what you mentioned at the end hits. On crunch and clean tones, you can get away with more high end and still have that realism. With a high-gain tone, I drop the high-cut to sometimes towards 4K...3K even. It's the cab/mic choice that really dictates how far I take it. Essentially, I dial the amp/cab to feel how I want it to, then use the hi-cut to smooth off the hissy frequencies I don't need in a high-gain situation. Say I use a cab that plays good with the MD421 mic (a very piercing mic if used close to the cap)...Well I love how the mic makes the amp play feel-wise, including in real life, but that mic choice comes with an aggressive high-end, so I shelve IT to a point where it doesn't sound shrill, but still has the right feel and retains a mostly "direct" timbre.
If used with a power amp and guitar cab, modelers sound and feel like guitar amps. Rhett really missed the mark in his recent video.
It seems like a pretty straight-forward; self-answering question.
Jonathan I don't want to sound rude but I bought some of your stuff and I wasn't overwhelmed.
From what I can understand everyone sets up their hx stomp very different according to what they have in their minds as a real amp. A lot of it has to do with the user speaker-amp final volume and headroom.
That's fair comment, and why I believe it's not fair to charge large amounts of money for presets. And yes, signal chain, guitar, pickups and guitarist will all play an important factor in the actual results?
@@johnnathancordy Did you design your presets to be played into an amp? Or into monitors or something else?
@@dean_3099 monitors. JBL lsr305s are what I use
Well, I'm the not so proud owner of some of Rhett's Helix Patches, They were not very useable right out of the box for various reasons, although I was able to do some tweaks and block changes. In fairness, I'll say they are templates and that is the rule for me with respect to purchased patches.
As with most patches, free or purchased you have to use your ears and understand the platform.
I think Jonathon has many fair points. IMO, If you're going to gig with Modeling or Profilng gear, you'll have to do several tweaks before you settle on a sound. This has been my experience from using Modelers in a Live setting since the original Pod and Johnson and Digitech, etc units came out. One more thing, EVERYTHING you plug your unit into sounds different than any other unit. Good Video Jonathon, where does one find your patches? Link?
Interesting and convincing. It would be better if you stopped talking during the sound demonstration.
No disrespect... and...
playing solo guitar may be a whole different thing.
-but-
I am a touring musician, and ON STAGE, I have found, without a doubt, that the high and low frequencies NEED to be cut if you are doing classic rock, R&B, funk, gospel etc... to make it sound right and in the pocket.
A Celestion Vintage 30 Guitar Speaker, 8 Ohm has a Frequency range of only 70-5000Hz and the average guitar amp only goes up to about 6000Hz. But use your ear. On stage, with a full band, I have experienced that what he said about EQ is spot on. I do the same thing with the Global EQ,, and I constantly have players come up to me raving about my tone. Try it for yourself; if you play in clubs or on stage and you are having a hard time dialing your sound in, this may help - it works very well for me at least - using FRFR speakers.
The same approach is taken in the recording studio when mixing a project. The proper way to mix is NOT to solo and tweak each instrument individually... properly done, everything is EQ'ed in the context of the entire mix - otherwise instruments compete for the same sonic space and it sound amateurish and cluttered. As a producer (yes, I do that too) I generally roll off low end on almost everything except kick and bass.... this is standard practice in the field. Every instrument has a sonic 'space' that it needs to 'sit' in to make everything sound good. But if you soloed those instruments (or you can find 'stems' online) you would be shocked at how they sound.
Our ears are funny things.
IMHO...
YMMV.
What I was saying wasn't that it wasn't a) good advice or b) necessary but that it's actually taking you further away from a "real amp", so it's not a modelling issue.
If you stick a sm57 up to a Vox Ac30 for example, you quickly run into "fizzy" and "harsh" tones if you feel me?
who cares - I love the sound of my Helix cranked - so its a miced up emulation, sounds fine to me. if you cant handle it, to the point of distraction maybe you should give up playing.
Call me old fashioned...
PODGO > MOSVALVE 290 > 2 2x12 cabs... standard stereo out with IR enabled... use global/ master eq to "tune" the response through the speakers... mic it up... turn it up...rock n roll...
Hours and hours of fiddling with small things that you shouldn't care. Hours and hours without playing guitar, living 8n the rabbit hole. Get a real amp if that is you need or get a GT-1000 that is super natural with the amp feel.
I say don’t use any EQ, And let the front of house sound tech cut out whatever he needs for his mix
Could just do without saying he is wrong In the title. No need for click bit title.
Adjust your sound to your liking then let the front of house work and earn his money! Your in-ear sound shouldn't be affected by the sound out then the sound engineer is doing it wrong!
Hey Tomas! I know. He's useless
@@johnnathancordy hahahah ;)
Candyman Candyman Candyman Candyman ...
Define "Real Amp".
Too subjective to be tossing around "right or wrong" I think.
Well...a real amp will kick out frequencies above 8khz and below 100hz is the basic argument.
And the lower frequencies are in my opinion quite important factor in determining feel.
ruclips.net/video/J02heFTwEXY/видео.html here is the video i'm referring to
If you can't understand what a "real amp" is in this context without being given a definition you are an absolute moron.
Modellers are based on "real amps" start with that.
Apologies. Downvoting myself for that one. :-]