"Don't tell me you'd object to a little genocide in the name of self defense." "Klingons would only commit genocide against a truly evil species, like the Tribbles"
@@stormtempterf8058 Even still, Worf later admits Garak could probably have beaten him. Worf believes Garak threw their fight - that he wanted to be stopped. For this reason, Worf later cites their confrontation as a reason to trust him.
To me what really elevates this scene is Garak acknowledgement that he'll die along with everyone else if he launches an attack and he's more than wiling to make that sacrifice.
Yep, and it works as a perfect contrast to Dukat who expects everyone else to die for his principles/preferences while he waltzes off without consequence. Examples that come to mind being his Pah'Wraith Suicide Cult where he had his special pill; or back in S01 when the old Cardassian computer malfunctions and thinks it's back in the war and in the middle of a Bajoran uprising - Dukat drops by to mock them all and when he tries to leave discovers his own boss had put in a fail safe preventing it because he knew Dukat would save his own skin at the first sign of trouble rather than stay and do his duty.
The way that Andrew Robinson slowly raises the pitch of his voice and puts his head in the air like a lizard is an amazing bit of acting. He really tried to embody what being a different species is like.
@DerKommissar, I have a boss that is the same way! He is such an eloquent speaker, that even if no one is around, he will speak so that *HE* can listen to himself talk! LOL! @@pauljohnson600 BWAHAHAHAHAHA That would be awesome! 👍🏽 The only thing better than that is if "Q" also ran as an Independent! 😂🤣😂
@@Argumemnon Well, it wasn't TNG that developed them, was it? In TNG these races show up every now and then, cause some trouble and are gone again by the end of the episode. In DS9 the Cardassians were from day one a recurring threat.
everyone's talking about the genocide line, but honestly i prefer: "you were trying to override the launch controls for the quantum torpedoes!" "i was hoping to gain control of the phasers as well, i just hadn't gotten around to it yet!" i love how petulant garak sounds, like he's more upset about being called out for not getting the override done on time than he is about getting caught in the first place.
Garaek served in the obsidian order so he had combat training. In the way of the warriors he takes out multiple klingons with dukat. I found people underestimated garek alot.
@@SaltpeterTaffy True. But, I don't see why the two have to be mutually exclusive. It could have just as easily meant "You're full of crap. But, I respect your abilities."
its not entirely about that. young, in-shape garak would beat worf easily. lets not forget that he was way past his prime. being out of the game for so long, left permanent marks on him. i have no trouble believeing that in-shape obisidan superagent would beat the shit out of a klingons ass. the show tries to display klingons as mighty and superior opponents, but the truth is, they are not. just like jem'hadar. they are supposed to be vastly superior, but we've seen them lose to humans in hand-to-hand combats, more than few times. remember that tng episode, when riker was aboard BoP, and he kicked the shit out of that klingon with ease. and tng worf was getting his ass kicked all the time, in ds9 he was tougher though......still, he is not that tough. i believe he couldnt take odo, when he was still a shapeshifter ofc.
@@milorad7226 There's no 'truth' here, firstly the show is fiction and there are no Klingon's or Cardassians, secondly the writers can't even make fighting ability consistent either inter-species or inter-episode. Vulcans are supposedly 3x stronger than humans yet a pregnant, half-human B'elanna Torres can whip Vorik !! :)
5 лет назад+24
Worf in TNG was in position to take the hit for his captain/FO. His duty is to be a punching bag. Worf in DS9 is in position to take tactical decisions that impact the course of an intergalactic war. His duty is to intimidate and placate.
Lmfao @ this exchange. personally I think statements such as "tend to be 3x stronger than *insert species here*" are intended to indicate general tendencies, not absolute rules. Riker is a larger-than-average, athletic human. Vorik is scrawny while B'Elanna herself is part Klingon. All of these fights going the way they do makes perfect sense to me.
Worf walks around all the time restraining his inner nature.....you know it makes his week to get punched in the face...."ahh! finally we can get physical!"
The writers of TNG kept using Worf as a punching bag, because they usually wanted to demonstrate the big bad of the week as a credible threat. What better than to have them overwhelm the Klingon in the room? The problem was that they overused it and so Worf appeared to be nothing more than a welcome mat for the enemy.
Monster Mash in another episode he tells Jadzia that he did behave like other Klingons when he was a boy but when he accidentally killed a boy during a soccer match he came to the realization he needed to reign in his more aggressive tendencies.
One of the reasons I like DS9 so much is because they let Worf show off his warrior skills. It's pretty hard to look like a badass when you're trying to fight an omnipotent being, or testing your strength against the superpower Android, or you know your captain doesn't let you do anything and keeps telling you no.
Not just as a warrior, but as an officer too. For a large portion of TNG he just seems to exist to either elevate the villain of the week as a threat by getting his ass handed to him by them, or shut down by Picard/Riker on the bridge whenever he makes a tactical suggestion. Like, him prioritizing the ship and lives of its crew is the bad decision compared to satiating Picard's curiosity and causing the ship to almost blow up from enemy attacks, alien computer viruses, etc. He exists as a yard stick to measure the enemy's strength/the command staff's virtue against.
Exactly, Picard never lets Worf fire the weapons. Compare that with the battle where they defend DS9 against the Dominion fleet to buy time for the minefield to be laid, where Sisko's one and only order to Worf is "fire at will." Worf apparently proceeds to destroy 50 ships and damage many more going by Weyoun's words after the battle, so he made up for lost time there.
TNG was notorious for subduing Worf, even though he was right quite a lot. I always think of the episode with the Pakleds. Worf wisely advises that they know nothing about them and so should proceed with caution and the rest of the bridge is like "nah, they're so sweet and simple, what threat could they be?". 5 minutes later, Geordi's a hostage.
Slavery and concentration camps are bad, but preemptive genocide and dropping bombs on civilians is morally right? I'll take "pompous" and "self-righteous" as a compliment from such a contradictory ethic!
+Patrick McWilliams Think of the massive war and millions of caslauties Garak's action could have averted. does a species deserve to exist at the cost of such a massive and costly interstellar war? The morality is not so clear cut as you think. And there isn't a Founder on that planet that would qualify as a civilian under the rules of war. They're one big government, and all of them are government officials -- fair game.
+hagamapama Utilitarianism is a failed ethic. It is impossible to calculate which course of action amounts to the "greater good." For example, when Odo returns to the Great Link, who's to say his morality doesn't spread throughout the Link and ultimately result in millennia of positive relations between the Changelings and the rest of the galaxy? What if they become the ultimate peacemakers & doctors, saving countless lives? Past experience can never prove the future. Evil being used as a means toward a good end doesn't make the evil good. As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Genocide is never the answer. As for the civilians comment, that was in reference to Japan, not the Founders.
+Glinkling Smearnops Not really a parallel if you consider that literally everyone on that planet with the exception of 3 people are a hive-mind'esque species. The planet is quite literally a sea of their enemies. WW2 doesn't offer a lot of great parallels because a lot of information is still up in the air. There is still a lot of debate as to whether the second bomb was necessary since there was, debatably, a motion of surrender after the first bomb.
In this episode, Garak's plan to save the Alpha Quadrant would cost the deaths of an entire race of people and the Defiant crew. Two seasons later, he'd whittled that price down to just one Romulan Senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. When you look at it that way, it really WAS a bargain.
'Come now, mister Worf, you're a Klingon. Don't tell me you'd object to a little genocide in the name of self-defense' Ah, classic Garak. One of the best characters ever written for a TV-show.
Now that I know that, at this point in time, Garak believed the Dominion killed his father, this scene takes on a new dimension. "I am Elim Garak. You killed my father. Prepare for extinction!"
Was it me or did Worf seem a little surprised, maybe even shocked, at how well Garak could fight? It seems that Garak's initial resistance and skill in hand to hand kinda got Worf off-guard, he almost had a look of, "What the FUCK?! Garak can fight THIS good?!" before he decided to go Master moQBara on his ass. Which strangely resembles Karate strikes and a Judo throw. It's ALMOST as if Michael Dorn's background in the martial arts influenced that fight. MOST interesting...
Noticed that as well, but to me this scene shows shades of Garak's skill, he's basically rehashing key techniques, due to being out of the game for so long. despite Worf being well trained garak still surprised him. It makes me wonder how good Garak was in close quarter combat before his exile.
World Of Thought You get the impression that Garak could handle himself in close combat, but for the most part it was something he would rather avoid. This is also the only time that he throws the first punch, normally he provokes the other party and is more of a counter puncher.
That's true, but I also think in comparison to most situations he was in, this was a case where he was acting on his own interests. I don't imagine Garak as once being a kung-fu master type at one point in his life but I also think he is far more skilled then many would realise. On paper he should be formidable close combatant given he did all the black ops and assassinations etc, he's basically ex CIA. Yet it should be weighed against his current circumstances (exile, choosing a civilian lifestyle) and that he likes to use his wit to get the better of people. It's true fighting is what he would avoid because he's smart and knows he has enough enemies as it is but that doesn't mean he won't be able to hold his own, if it suits his interests.
World Of Thought I think the main thing here is that Garak is in a rage, the Female Changeling has just told him that all the Cardassians (including Tain) were killed in the attack on the Founder's Homeworld (we later find out she lied) and that she would destroy Cardassia (which she basically did in the end, the old Cardassia was destroyed) Garak was here not really thinking of the bigger picture for once, but just wanted revenge on the Founders.
World Of Thought In Andrew Robinson's book "Star Trek DS9: A Stitch In Time", he goes in detail about Garak's origins, in the form of journals as well as his part in the rebuilding of Cardassia after the Dominion War. Robinson made sure to talk to the most fanatic of Trekkies to make sure he got every shred and piece of Cardassian history and culture accurate in accordance with canon knowledge and non-canonical that is commonly accepted and referenced in multiple games and/or books, In it, it talks about how Garak was exceptionally good at the Cardassian military form of self-defense referred to as "strategems". Not a flat out martial art, per se, so much as a collection of raw, cut and dry techniques to counter an opponents attacks or force him to expose himself to a vulnerability for a follow-up attack. Garak was not the best, but he was second to only one person (though he was always second to him). The main reason he avoids hand to hand combat is that it leaves too much to chance and often would expose him to odds that are not favorable. A constant professional, he remains professional, refusing to let emotions or personal desires, even of a moral nature, interfere with his focus to accomplish the mission. Which is ironic considering the reason for his exile. I recommend it as reading not just to understand Garak, but to have a strong understanding of Cardassian culture and a good idea of the direction they will be heading.
FekLeyrTarg's Videos I think it was because Worf already knew in advance what Garak was up to, so he very nearly saved Garak from tribunal by making sure there were no other witnesses to the discussion, then thwarting genocide, a sooner breakout of terrible war, and possible wipeout of Alpha and Beta quadrants. Garak was confined for six months for attempted sabotage and assaulting Worf. Worf was essentially head of security on Defiant, so I guess he was the only one to have pressed charges. So, umm, Worf was rather considerate... for a Klingon.
At 1:53 imagine being the sound editor who had to edit in a sound effect for "the actors broke the set, exposing the soundstage, but the take was so good we left it in"
Hell, DS9 effectively apologized to the character in "By Inferno's Light" for all the times he got his butt kicked on TNG to make the bad guys seem tough. DS9 writers: "We're going to have you being forced to fight Jem'Hadar after Jem'Hadar to the death, with at most a day available to rest and heal inbetween - and you keep winning every match while a highly respected Klingon general fanboys over you until the final one who you impress so much with your determination to never give up, never surrender, that he would rather die than kill a warrior such as you." Michael Dorn: "HELL YES."
+MassEffectFan113 It was my favorite character in DS-9.It reminds me a little bit of Q,but without the powers and constrained by a limited lifespan.The devious mind is there though.
He, Weyoun and Dukat are my favorite Star Trek characters. So fleshed out. Not that I dislike any of the others but they're really some of the best villains and anti-heroes in sci-fi.
Garak was trained by the obsidian order and I'm sure is a very capable fighter. However he's out of practice and going against one of the toughest guys in starfleet. The odds were really stacked against him
Because close combat is not his speciality, it is however Worf's. Garak would beat the general person on the street or a standard security guard if he had to but this was a way above average Klingon, who's been training for decades to get to this level and has been in more than one deadly fight. Worf was initially surprised and took a few hits but these failed to take him out so as soon as he got an opening he dismantled Garak.
Most secret police leaders don't fight well, they use their brains. They are ruthless but cunning and they try not to get into physical confrontations as there is a possibility of uncertainty, they have "muscle" for that.
Garak isn’t out of practice. Garak is a spy, an assassin. He is not built to be a common infantry or soldier like Worf. He would never even purposely pick a one-to-one fight with someone built like Worf. Spies and assassins are lightweight so that they can look unthreatening, unassuming, and move completely in 🥷stealth-mode from the shadows. And their offensive/defensive capabilities are designed primarily for quick strikes/death blows or if need be quick escapes/exfiltration. Spies and assassins like Garak will never get into a protracted fight, because that will easily prove deadly for them and would compromise whatever secrets and intel that they have with them.
I think they left it in, because those doors are supposed to be futuristic wonder materials, super strong, and it just breaking like that helps demonstrate that both races, the cardassians and the Klingons are strong, sturdy warrior races
The problem for Worf (on top of the whole honor thing) is the Gamma Quadrant descending into anarchy with the Jem'Hadar going nuts. Billions upon billions would still be dead only now it'd be the peoples of the Gamma Quadrant sufffering. Having been raised by the Federation, Worf views the lives of those outside his collective as important as those inside. Therefore a Gamma Quadrant in ruins is no better than an Alpha Quadrant in ruins. Despite having spent so much time with Bashir, Garak still hasn't realized that aspect of Federation psychology so he makes the mistake of appealing to Worf's sense of self-preservation. To me this scene goes back to who these two men's mentors were. Worf goes back to Picard whereas Garak goes back to Enabrin. Picard, being the quintessential Federation poster boy, isn't going to force pain on others to make his own life easier. Tain couldn't care less what happens to the outside world so long as Cardassia stays strong. But Worf isn't Picard and Garak isn't Enabrin. Worf skips the long Picard speech and gets right down to business. He isn't here to save Garak's soul or convince him of error, he's here to stop him. And Garak, after years on DS9, has started to realize the world outside Cardassia is also important. He's just not as broadminded as someone from the Federation would want. I really love these two guys
+Julian Francisco Garak is of course also figuring without the Vorta, who have enough initiative and enough control of the Jem'hadar to hold things together, at least temporarily, and enact a campaign of revenge against the Alpha Quadrant races.
The irony is, the only way the Dominion holds together if Garak gets his way, is if they put Odo in charge. He's the only one of the Hundred whose whereabouts were known at the time.
The problem with Garak's plan (in my opinion) is that there is no guarantee that all of the Founders are on that planet, or even that he could kill them all before the Jem'Hadar destroyed the Defiant. Which results in a few possibilities 1) Founder survivors accelerate the plans to attack the Federation (At this point the Federation shields are still useless against Dominion weaponry as far as I can recall, and they have had less time to prepare for them- so fewer ships/allies-so more casualties and maybe even ultimate defeat) 2) The Vorta take control of the Dominion (Most Jem'Hadar never actually meet the Founders, so won't suspect a thing, and the one's that are present would either go on a suicide attack on the Federation or commit suicide for failing the Founders) 3) The Jem'Hadar kill their Vorta overseers, and then go on a rampage, either enslaving or just killing as many races as possible until they are either all dead or everyone else is-either way catastrophic death toll.
TheDjbz the plan isn't, from my reading, to destroy the Dominion literally. It'd be akin to a terrorist attack that wipes out 90% of a country's leaders. It's fully expected that there will be a retaliatory attack handled by talented military personnel (since they weren't targeted) but the domestic situation will become so chaotic they'll have to withdraw eventually to keep their country from completely falling apart. At this point in the war (or cold war) the Dominion didn't have all its nonaggression treaties in place so they wouldn't be able to just steamroll through the Alpha and Beta quadrants. And, more importantly, Garak is likely counting on getting rid of the united voice of the Changelings. It's very hard to play people against each other when their actions are being directed by a hive mind. If the Vorta were independant they'd be like any other power vulnerable to assassinations, kidnappings, and good old fashioned blackmail.
1:52 when Worf is such a badass he breaks the Defiant. You thought there was a Jefferey's Tube behind that door? Nope, crafting bench and set materials. Take THAT, official schematics!
I suspect Garak too went a bit too easy, recalling Worf's abysmal combat record from the Enterprise as likely told by OBrian or just some basic research.
@Blue Skeptic It was common knowledge by the time Worf arrived that Garak was an agent of the Obsidian Order in exhile. I don't think Worf would be Strategic Operations officer and de facto commander of the Defiant without being aware of that.
Given how briefly we actually see it, it's likely the only real outcome was a need to re-shoot the following portion of the scene with a different camera angle, and cut early so that the gaffe doesn't show up for more than a split-second at worst.
One does have to love that Defiant's tube hatches are made from plywood at 1:50 one pops out when garak is pushed onto the wall xD I know i know the sets are fragile - but it was hilarious to see xD
Other than him blowing up the Roman Ambassador to get them into the Dominion War, this is probably my favorite Garak moment! I couldn't believe he challenged Worf and was willing to blow the founders to bits lol......EPIC!
@@stanimirgeorgiev8596 True. But much about the Romulan (and Reman) society were/are pretty much inspired, if not modeled, after that of the Ancient Romans, anyway. Right?
accroding to spock, garak's logic is spot on, the needs of the many, the trillions in the alpha quadrant, out weigh the needs of the few, the people on board the defiant.
Except that wiping out the founders DOESN’T wipe out the Dominion. The Vorta and Jem’Hadar are still there and would come to the Alpha Quadrant seeking vengeance. The war would be even worse, as their goal this time would be to destroy the Federation rather than absorb them. This was a foolish and impulsive decision on Garak’s part.
9752matt First off the White does not come from the Founders literally. They don’t actually make the stuff, other races do. This was shown with the Son’a in the Alpha Quadrant which were supplying the Dominion with White before the Enterprise-E stopped them. Second the Vorta would have a purpose. Revenge. You really think they wouldn’t want to destroy the Federation for killing their gods? I understand Garak’s idea, decapite the leadership. But I honestly don’t think it would have prevented a war, I think it would have started one.
The most hilarious scene ever! "Come now, Mr Worf, you're a Klingon. Don't tell me you'd object to a little genocide in the name of self defense!" This makes me laugh every time!
I don't think so. If Garak succeeded, the Dominion would be in the same position as Romulus a decade later, after the hypernova, or Vulcan in the alternate timeline after Nero. Only this time, unlike those two, the Dominion are ready and gunning for war - and vengeance, whatever the cost as was shown in "The Jem'Hadar." The war would have occurred a whole year earlier, and (on top of the individual changelings who perished on this day) billions MORE would have died on all sides. The vengeance war would be much more ferocious and dirty than the war we ended up with, with the Dominion possibly wishing to exact a proportionate, perhaps escalated, response to what happened here - by wiping out Earth, Romulus, Qo'noS, Cardassia Prime, Bajor and every other major Solid homeworld.
Not knowing the future with certainty makes Garak's action a bad one. But, if he knew the future, he was doing the right thing and many lives would have been saved.
Its actually called the Worf effect. Take the thoughest character and let the enemy beat him up to show his strength. Because of that i found that Data was the true tough guy in TNG. He could beat any Klingon in Strength, any Vulcan in logic, any scientists in brain and one of the few Spot actually liked.
And DS9 Worf is much better for it. I was never all that impressed with him as an actor in TNG; his performances in DS9, opposite a more generally skilled cast (Stewart being an outlier in TNG) with better scripts, really show him off much better.
Garak was right! What are A few lives compared to saving millions of people? If Section 31 had knew of Garak plains of Destroying the Dominion They would sent Sloan to make sure Garak was successful in every way!
Maybe not. In truth, the Federation may have needed the Dominion to neutralize some of their enemies in the alpha quadrant. For instance, the Klingon empire was pulverized of its greatest warriors for a long time to come, and the Cardies were weakened and ultimately a billion died in the genocide by the Founders. These are things the Federation could never do on its own. So I bet S31 did some projections and made this determination.
@Thelondonbadger you have no proof that such a pretty one was behind it. plus we will have to face the fact that that was a major coincidence and maybe a blessing for the alpha quadrant. Just because I'm on I'm on praxis gets blown up does not mean section 31 was behind it. And Just because a admiral this'll be Starfleet order it makes a phase cloaking device does not mean section 31 was behind it. We will have to face the fact that there are rogue admirals and officers in Starfleet other than section 31 undermines the values in the ideas of the federation.
Remember he's a former super-spy. Worf is just lucky he has preferred emeritus main character plot armor, because Garak probably knows 100 ways of killing someone of any species in the alpha quadrant with his left pinky finger.
Little genocide, lol.. This is why I love Garak and what makes him such a complex character. A few episodes ago in "Our Man Bashir" he was willing to sacrifice the lives of Sisko, Dax, Kira and O'Brien in order safe his own butt. Here he is willing to bring his own life at stake in an attempt to safe the Alpha Quadrant. Brilliant guy.
I think Garak was consistent. In Our Man Bashir he values his own life above those of Sisko and the others. He has absolutely no reason to die for them. Earlier in this episode Garak was told by the female changeling that Cardassia was dead, that all Cadassians were dead. The Dominion was planning on committing genocide on his entire race. In that situation Garak valued the lives of his people above his own and everyone on the Defiant.
Worf, who usually can beat 2-5 Klingons with his pinky finger, probably didn't let the idea that a mere Cardassian tailer is beating the shit out of him sink in untill 1:46 when he had this look on his face, that's when he realized that he needed to whoop Garak's ass for good
I think it was Garak calling him a "great disappointment" that did it. Prior to that he was doing his duty as a Starfleet officer to protect the lives of everyone on that ship; Garak just had to go and make things personal. Making things personal with a Klingon: *Bad idea.*
"You fight well, for a tailor." Indeed. 😆 Let's remember Worf's and Garak's attitude's, later on, when the Federation finds itself in a war with the Dominion. The Dominion was _built_ by the Founders, but this does not mean that _eliminating_ the Founders will end the threat from what _was_ the _Dominion._ The fall of an empire _always_ creates a power vacuum.
Not in this case I don't think. The Founders were more than just leaders of the Dominion, they were Gods in the eyes of the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta. Everything they did they did for them. It's entirely possible that without the Founders to give them purpose, the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta would simply terminate themselves. The Dominion would then crumble virtually overnight.
In Statistical Probabilities (s6e9), the GMO Squad seems to think that there's still enough White left for one last huge suicide run. This episode takes place a good season and a half prior to that, so presumably it'd be no less true at this point in the story.
There were more than just the Founders, Jem'Hadar and Vorta in the Dominion, I reckon if the Founders were wiped out the power vacuum would have caused species under the control of the Dominion to rise up and fight for their freedom. This would have splintered them and caused chaos. It would have saved the Alpha quadrant from from further invasion, though the Federation would have effectively caused genocide of the Founders since no-one would know Garak fired the shots and there would have been suicidal attacks against the Federation before the Dominion collapsed.
The meaning in this scene changes greatly in a later episode. Worf acknowledges that, had Garak wanted to, he could most likely have won their confrontation and gone on to fire the weapons. Worf admitting that someone could beat his ass is already rare enough, but further citing Garak's willing loss as a reason to trust him is quite surprising.
Garrick was a brilliant character, he did well against Worf who in all fairness really is a lethal fighter! despite TNG plot lines ruining his vibe! two amazing aliens! they earn respect with each other when they go into the prison camp
What I like about this fight is that Worf actually showed he's tough. Sure, Garak landed some blows, but Worf just shrugged them off and doesn't even look hurt when he puts Garak to the floor. His "You fight well for a tailor" comes across as "Congratulations, you made my day interesting." There's not enough of Worf showing his dominance as a Klingon. Because he's a *Klingon*. He should be feared for a reason, right?
@@jesseling2802 what are you talking about? Machiavelli was tortured and exiled...the only thing he ever accomplished was to write "The Prince" which he only did to gain favor with the Medicis. You're just wrong Jesse
1:46 I love the look of shock and disbelief on Worf's face when Garak punches him. And at 1:50 I don't think the panel was meant to come off, there should be a jeffrey's tube behind it but it looks like its the studio. I guess they left it in because its not that noticeable.
Which is to be expected. You don't go into subterfuge and fake being a tailor. Oh no. You actually need to be a tailor. To make it real. A simulacrum of a tailor won't do.
Normally, this would be extremely hard to swallow, that Garak would initiate a close-quarters fight with Worf. But in this context, with Garak literally willing to die to settle things once and for all, it seems very believable that he would sucker-punch Worf and take his chances.
A matter of perspective. The Dominion would have collapsed into total anarchy taking the Gamma Quadrant with it. God knows how much collateral damage would spill over into the Alpha Quadrant.
The funny part is, Garak is willing to sacrifice his life, as well as lives of his friends and everybody else on the ship just to save his people from the dominion threat, hell, save the entire alpha quadrant from that threat. And yet he is banished from Cardassia and is considered a traitor by every single cardassian. And Worf shows what exactly makes Starfleet and The Klingon Empire secondary powers in the alpha quadrant, standing below the Romulan Empire. Klingon Empire is bound by honor. Starfleet by their moral code. Romulans are not - they're more like Dominion, build by using all means necessary, without moral qualms.
+Isengrim R The Federation is larger and possesses more resources than either the Klingon or Romulan empires. The Romulans aren't very far behind, but they're not quite equals in power. The Federation even agreed not to develop cloaking devices as a way to maintain a power balance, so the Romulans didn't feel too threatened by the bigger guy next door because they can be sneakier. It is worth keeping in mind that, in the prime universe at least, the Federation wins every war it gets into, or at least convinces the other side to agree to a peace treaty that the Federation finds acceptable - and the Feds have fought just about everyone at some point or another.
+pali1d Exactly. The Federation is really powerful. That's why I'm glad they learned from their experiences with the Borg and the Dominion, wanting to be explorers and live peacefully is great but don't scale back your fleet and field a bunch of scout ships in peacetime.
He didn't complete THIS specific objective,but he managed to complete others that were critical. Without Garak,the Alpha quadrant would most likely belong to the Dominion.
Fascinating scene that reveals just how skilled Garak is in hand-to-hand combat. He held his own against Worf, thereby confirming just how dangerous Garak is.
Развлечения
"Don't tell me you'd object to a little genocide in the name of self defense."
"Klingons would only commit genocide against a truly evil species, like the Tribbles"
"Wiping out a bunch of ravenous space gerbils is one thing, but I draw the line at sentient races."
😆
This comment made me laugh. Thank you so much for a great into the day!
To borrow a line from another series, "THIS IS NOT WAR, THIS IS PEST CONTROL"
More literally than it's original form too
One of the best lines in the show.
Garak: Starts to beat Worf.
Worf: Wait, this isn't TNG
*instantly begins to win
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
"Warf, no! You have to let him win!" -Captain Picard
Thank you, lol, that was similar to my thought process, lol. I was like wait, he's not geting his ass kicked *too* hard....whats going on here, lol.
@@stormtempterf8058 Even still, Worf later admits Garak could probably have beaten him. Worf believes Garak threw their fight - that he wanted to be stopped. For this reason, Worf later cites their confrontation as a reason to trust him.
Garak is a Rogue. He's got good Sneak Attack bonuses, but in a straight up fight he cannot compete with a Fighter.
To me what really elevates this scene is Garak acknowledgement that he'll die along with everyone else if he launches an attack and he's more than wiling to make that sacrifice.
Just like in the episode "in the Pale Moonlight"
That's how you know he has a moral core.
Yep, and it works as a perfect contrast to Dukat who expects everyone else to die for his principles/preferences while he waltzes off without consequence.
Examples that come to mind being his Pah'Wraith Suicide Cult where he had his special pill;
or back in S01 when the old Cardassian computer malfunctions and thinks it's back in the war and in the middle of a Bajoran uprising - Dukat drops by to mock them all and when he tries to leave discovers his own boss had put in a fail safe preventing it because he knew Dukat would save his own skin at the first sign of trouble rather than stay and do his duty.
Garak is one of, if not the most, interesting character in Trek.
@@RichardP539 quoted for truth.
Cardassians are so great at oratory, everyday conversation is always a speech.
imagine an alternate universe where Garak and Picard are competing against each other for POTUS of 2020. The debates would be so epic haha.
The way that Andrew Robinson slowly raises the pitch of his voice and puts his head in the air like a lizard is an amazing bit of acting. He really tried to embody what being a different species is like.
@DerKommissar, I have a boss that is the same way! He is such an eloquent speaker, that even if no one is around, he will speak so that *HE* can listen to himself talk! LOL!
@@pauljohnson600 BWAHAHAHAHAHA That would be awesome! 👍🏽
The only thing better than that is if "Q" also ran as an Independent! 😂🤣😂
I fucking love the Cardassians. Much better developed than the other TNG races.
@@Argumemnon Well, it wasn't TNG that developed them, was it? In TNG these races show up every now and then, cause some trouble and are gone again by the end of the episode. In DS9 the Cardassians were from day one a recurring threat.
everyone's talking about the genocide line, but honestly i prefer:
"you were trying to override the launch controls for the quantum torpedoes!"
"i was hoping to gain control of the phasers as well, i just hadn't gotten around to it yet!"
i love how petulant garak sounds, like he's more upset about being called out for not getting the override done on time than he is about getting caught in the first place.
It's not petulance, it's disappointment: "I would've done it to, if it weren't for you meddling klingons"
@@eviljesus84 LOL, "you meddling Klingons!". Excellent!
I mean that is Garek for you.. At least he can make a good suit
@@blackdog6969 He said that it pissed him off as well, that he was actually a good tailor :D He really enjoyed watching his shop burn.
I realize this is why I love Garak so much, that's exactly how I've reacted when my boss caught me stealing from work
"You fight well" is the best compliment one could ever hope to get from Worf.
Garaek served in the obsidian order so he had combat training. In the way of the warriors he takes out multiple klingons with dukat. I found people underestimated garek alot.
I'm torn between that and "The Romulans fought with honor."
@@XR171 I know exactly what your talking about. Great line from a bad movie.
"You fight well for a tailor." is Worf's way of saying Garak is full of shit. As in "You're clearly no tailor."
@@SaltpeterTaffy True. But, I don't see why the two have to be mutually exclusive. It could have just as easily meant "You're full of crap. But, I respect your abilities."
3 years later:
-"Forgive me, Mr Worf, I'd hate to make this the time where I say 'I told you so', but I told you so."
I can't remember, is this a actual line?
Jon Ericson the world may never know
@@JnEricsonx I think it might be... I vaguely remember something like it
#GarakWasRight ?
More like, 4 years later. Am I right?
Garak's mistake is that he tried that shit on the wrong Worf.
TNG-Worf was something of a punching bag.
DS9-Worf was death on legs.
its not entirely about that.
young, in-shape garak would beat worf easily.
lets not forget that he was way past his prime. being out of the game for so long, left permanent marks on him. i have no trouble believeing that in-shape obisidan superagent would beat the shit out of a klingons ass.
the show tries to display klingons as mighty and superior opponents, but the truth is, they are not. just like jem'hadar. they are supposed to be vastly superior, but we've seen them lose to humans in hand-to-hand combats, more than few times.
remember that tng episode, when riker was aboard BoP, and he kicked the shit out of that klingon with ease.
and tng worf was getting his ass kicked all the time, in ds9 he was tougher though......still, he is not that tough. i believe he couldnt take odo, when he was still a shapeshifter ofc.
@@milorad7226 There's no 'truth' here, firstly the show is fiction and there are no Klingon's or Cardassians, secondly the writers can't even make fighting ability consistent either inter-species or inter-episode. Vulcans are supposedly 3x stronger than humans yet a pregnant, half-human B'elanna Torres can whip Vorik !! :)
Worf in TNG was in position to take the hit for his captain/FO. His duty is to be a punching bag.
Worf in DS9 is in position to take tactical decisions that impact the course of an intergalactic war. His duty is to intimidate and placate.
Lmfao @ this exchange. personally I think statements such as "tend to be 3x stronger than *insert species here*" are intended to indicate general tendencies, not absolute rules. Riker is a larger-than-average, athletic human. Vorik is scrawny while B'Elanna herself is part Klingon. All of these fights going the way they do makes perfect sense to me.
@@jaybeebee9288 I'll also add Riker effortlessly beating up Lt Klang on the episode where he served on a Klingon cruiser.
Worf walks around all the time restraining his inner nature.....you know it makes his week to get punched in the face...."ahh! finally we can get physical!"
In DS9, sure. In TNG, not so much, because he gets floored a lot there.
I think Worf spent more time on the floor in TNG than he did at his station.
The writers of TNG kept using Worf as a punching bag, because they usually wanted to demonstrate the big bad of the week as a credible threat. What better than to have them overwhelm the Klingon in the room?
The problem was that they overused it and so Worf appeared to be nothing more than a welcome mat for the enemy.
Monster Mash in another episode he tells Jadzia that he did behave like other Klingons when he was a boy but when he accidentally killed a boy during a soccer match he came to the realization he needed to reign in his more aggressive tendencies.
@Monster Mash there is an episode where he accidentally killed a human child when he was young so now he always holds himself back
I'd say this is my favorite Garak scene but every Garak scene is my favorite.
True
So, Garak is your favorite scene?
His favourite Cardass-scene
“Especially the lies.”
Worf knocked Garak so hard, HE... SEES... FOUR LIGHTS!
There are FOUR lights!
After LITERALLY putting his ass through a bulkhead, I would think so!
You are mistaken.... there are 5 lights. Say it....... SAY IT!!!!
THERE... ARE.. FOUR LIGHTS!
Well, there is the LED from your padd but there are FOUR LIGHTS!
Best shit I read all day
One of the reasons I like DS9 so much is because they let Worf show off his warrior skills. It's pretty hard to look like a badass when you're trying to fight an omnipotent being, or testing your strength against the superpower Android, or you know your captain doesn't let you do anything and keeps telling you no.
1 year late but don't forget the barrel that smashed him ;)
Not just as a warrior, but as an officer too. For a large portion of TNG he just seems to exist to either elevate the villain of the week as a threat by getting his ass handed to him by them, or shut down by Picard/Riker on the bridge whenever he makes a tactical suggestion. Like, him prioritizing the ship and lives of its crew is the bad decision compared to satiating Picard's curiosity and causing the ship to almost blow up from enemy attacks, alien computer viruses, etc. He exists as a yard stick to measure the enemy's strength/the command staff's virtue against.
The sad truth is that Worf has most of his best moments on DS9 and no one knows.
Exactly, Picard never lets Worf fire the weapons.
Compare that with the battle where they defend DS9 against the Dominion fleet to buy time for the minefield to be laid, where Sisko's one and only order to Worf is "fire at will." Worf apparently proceeds to destroy 50 ships and damage many more going by Weyoun's words after the battle, so he made up for lost time there.
TNG was notorious for subduing Worf, even though he was right quite a lot. I always think of the episode with the Pakleds. Worf wisely advises that they know nothing about them and so should proceed with caution and the rest of the bridge is like "nah, they're so sweet and simple, what threat could they be?". 5 minutes later, Geordi's a hostage.
"Don't tell me you'd object to a little genocide in the name of self defense."
I love Garak.
+Glinkling Smearnops You're not much of a Star Trek fan, are you?
Slavery and concentration camps are bad, but preemptive genocide and dropping bombs on civilians is morally right? I'll take "pompous" and "self-righteous" as a compliment from such a contradictory ethic!
+Patrick McWilliams Think of the massive war and millions of caslauties Garak's action could have averted. does a species deserve to exist at the cost of such a massive and costly interstellar war? The morality is not so clear cut as you think. And there isn't a Founder on that planet that would qualify as a civilian under the rules of war. They're one big government, and all of them are government officials -- fair game.
+hagamapama Utilitarianism is a failed ethic. It is impossible to calculate which course of action amounts to the "greater good." For example, when Odo returns to the Great Link, who's to say his morality doesn't spread throughout the Link and ultimately result in millennia of positive relations between the Changelings and the rest of the galaxy? What if they become the ultimate peacemakers & doctors, saving countless lives? Past experience can never prove the future. Evil being used as a means toward a good end doesn't make the evil good. As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Genocide is never the answer.
As for the civilians comment, that was in reference to Japan, not the Founders.
+Glinkling Smearnops Not really a parallel if you consider that literally everyone on that planet with the exception of 3 people are a hive-mind'esque species. The planet is quite literally a sea of their enemies. WW2 doesn't offer a lot of great parallels because a lot of information is still up in the air. There is still a lot of debate as to whether the second bomb was necessary since there was, debatably, a motion of surrender after the first bomb.
"You fight/hack/strategize/fly/shoot/argue/sneak well, for a tailor.
+aethertech you miss dope deal biker after 30 he did not see me like in 70 two bizzy shoting and runing you see now dont you ncis la way of the force
You know the sad thing? He's actually a very good tailor.
I see I'm going to have to add the word pickpocket to your resume.
Methinks this tailor tinkers as a soldier-spy
And he weeds well for a tailor
In this episode, Garak's plan to save the Alpha Quadrant would cost the deaths of an entire race of people and the Defiant crew. Two seasons later, he'd whittled that price down to just one Romulan Senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. When you look at it that way, it really WAS a bargain.
Simple economics.
Garak was right about one thing. A guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant.
'Come now, mister Worf, you're a Klingon. Don't tell me you'd object to a little genocide in the name of self-defense'
Ah, classic Garak. One of the best characters ever written for a TV-show.
omegastar19 It is because of The Great Tribble Hunt!
Don Ficko, Don't forget the Hur'q!
Garak is my homie
@@grievuspwn4g3 yes
#GarakDidNothingWrong
Now that I know that, at this point in time, Garak believed the Dominion killed his father, this scene takes on a new dimension.
"I am Elim Garak. You killed my father. Prepare for extinction!"
I absolutely loved the guy. Best character on DS9.
Was it me or did Worf seem a little surprised, maybe even shocked, at how well Garak could fight? It seems that Garak's initial resistance and skill in hand to hand kinda got Worf off-guard, he almost had a look of, "What the FUCK?! Garak can fight THIS good?!" before he decided to go Master moQBara on his ass. Which strangely resembles Karate strikes and a Judo throw. It's ALMOST as if Michael Dorn's background in the martial arts influenced that fight. MOST interesting...
Noticed that as well, but to me this scene shows shades of Garak's skill, he's basically rehashing key techniques, due to being out of the game for so long. despite Worf being well trained garak still surprised him. It makes me wonder how good Garak was in close quarter combat before his exile.
World Of Thought You get the impression that Garak could handle himself in close combat, but for the most part it was something he would rather avoid. This is also the only time that he throws the first punch, normally he provokes the other party and is more of a counter puncher.
That's true, but I also think in comparison to most situations he was in, this was a case where he was acting on his own interests. I don't imagine Garak as once being a kung-fu master type at one point in his life but I also think he is far more skilled then many would realise. On paper he should be formidable close combatant given he did all the black ops and assassinations etc, he's basically ex CIA. Yet it should be weighed against his current circumstances (exile, choosing a civilian lifestyle) and that he likes to use his wit to get the better of people.
It's true fighting is what he would avoid because he's smart and knows he has enough enemies as it is but that doesn't mean he won't be able to hold his own, if it suits his interests.
World Of Thought I think the main thing here is that Garak is in a rage, the Female Changeling has just told him that all the Cardassians (including Tain) were killed in the attack on the Founder's Homeworld (we later find out she lied) and that she would destroy Cardassia (which she basically did in the end, the old Cardassia was destroyed) Garak was here not really thinking of the bigger picture for once, but just wanted revenge on the Founders.
World Of Thought In Andrew Robinson's book "Star Trek DS9: A Stitch In Time", he goes in detail about Garak's origins, in the form of journals as well as his part in the rebuilding of Cardassia after the Dominion War. Robinson made sure to talk to the most fanatic of Trekkies to make sure he got every shred and piece of Cardassian history and culture accurate in accordance with canon knowledge and non-canonical that is commonly accepted and referenced in multiple games and/or books, In it, it talks about how Garak was exceptionally good at the Cardassian military form of self-defense referred to as "strategems". Not a flat out martial art, per se, so much as a collection of raw, cut and dry techniques to counter an opponents attacks or force him to expose himself to a vulnerability for a follow-up attack. Garak was not the best, but he was second to only one person (though he was always second to him). The main reason he avoids hand to hand combat is that it leaves too much to chance and often would expose him to odds that are not favorable. A constant professional, he remains professional, refusing to let emotions or personal desires, even of a moral nature, interfere with his focus to accomplish the mission. Which is ironic considering the reason for his exile. I recommend it as reading not just to understand Garak, but to have a strong understanding of Cardassian culture and a good idea of the direction they will be heading.
I love the look on Worf's face when Garak hits him at 1:47. Like, he's GENUINELY impressed Garak got in a good punch.
i have a feeling if anyone other then worf went into check on grak most of star trek history would have been changed.
Or Data if we count TNG characters, but bringing Data into the equation isn't even remotely close to fair.
Data would have just knocked him out one hit. Garak would probably break his hands trying to Hurt Data.
I just love Data.
They could have just sent a Vulcan in there. A pinch from a Vulcan would have probably been just as effective as a Worf ass-kicking.
I bet those neck ridges protect from the Vulcan nerve pinch or some junk.
Jonsin 1459 A "red shirt" goes in there. No need to worry. :)
Worf knew that gold-shirts are usually incompetent so he let them wait outside. ;) :D
correction: yellow shirts... yeah they kinda are the red-shirts of DS9 aren't they?
***** And Voyager.
FekLeyrTarg's Videos I think it was because Worf already knew in advance what Garak was up to, so he very nearly saved Garak from tribunal by making sure there were no other witnesses to the discussion, then thwarting genocide, a sooner breakout of terrible war, and possible wipeout of Alpha and Beta quadrants.
Garak was confined for six months for attempted sabotage and assaulting Worf. Worf was essentially head of security on Defiant, so I guess he was the only one to have pressed charges. So, umm, Worf was rather considerate... for a Klingon.
In Voyager, the hazard teams wore red.
@@mardus_ee
I think that's cause he had the same idea
At 1:53 imagine being the sound editor who had to edit in a sound effect for "the actors broke the set, exposing the soundstage, but the take was so good we left it in"
I love the door accidentally falling and they still used the scene lol
They could handwave it in universe as showing how strong Worf is
DS9 Worf > TNG Worf. His character really came into his own in this series. He's such a bad ass.
YES
Hell, DS9 effectively apologized to the character in "By Inferno's Light" for all the times he got his butt kicked on TNG to make the bad guys seem tough.
DS9 writers: "We're going to have you being forced to fight Jem'Hadar after Jem'Hadar to the death, with at most a day available to rest and heal inbetween - and you keep winning every match while a highly respected Klingon general fanboys over you until the final one who you impress so much with your determination to never give up, never surrender, that he would rather die than kill a warrior such as you."
Michael Dorn: "HELL YES."
Praising a Xeno?
Why I'd never thought I'd see the day, Miriael Sabatheil still looking for recruits?
TNG for Worf was him at tactical suggesting something and Capt. Picard saying "Denied, Mr. Worf".
@mark fernando I'm surprised nobody ever did a contrast video because on DS9 it's usually "I think we should shoot them" "SHOOT THEM!"
Garak was one of the most amazing and developed characters in this show. I think he is often overlooked.
+MassEffectFan113 It was my favorite character in DS-9.It reminds me a little bit of Q,but without the powers and constrained by a limited lifespan.The devious mind is there though.
He, Weyoun and Dukat are my favorite Star Trek characters. So fleshed out. Not that I dislike any of the others but they're really some of the best villains and anti-heroes in sci-fi.
Sadly, most of the time, the main characters were utter caricatures.
The actor that plays Garak does the best crazy eyes.
Nah, Gowron is the king of the crazy-eyes.
sorry your wrong! Gowron does the eyes best period.....
Well, he did play the psycho killer in the first Dirty Harry movie.
@@killersalmon4359
And "Frank" in Hell Raiser
@@killersalmon4359 and he clinked the bottles in the Warriors....
Garak was trained by the obsidian order and I'm sure is a very capable fighter. However he's out of practice and going against one of the toughest guys in starfleet. The odds were really stacked against him
Because close combat is not his speciality, it is however Worf's. Garak would beat the general person on the street or a standard security guard if he had to but this was a way above average Klingon, who's been training for decades to get to this level and has been in more than one deadly fight.
Worf was initially surprised and took a few hits but these failed to take him out so as soon as he got an opening he dismantled Garak.
Most secret police leaders don't fight well, they use their brains. They are ruthless but cunning and they try not to get into physical confrontations as there is a possibility of uncertainty, they have "muscle" for that.
If anyone questions worf's fighting ability, watch when they are in the Jem Hadar prison facility, and he beats all the Jem Hadar in combat.
It was said that even a half drunk Klingon is more than a match for most other species. Cardassians are tough but Klingons add tougher.
Garak isn’t out of practice.
Garak is a spy, an assassin. He is not built to be a common infantry or soldier like Worf.
He would never even purposely pick a one-to-one fight with someone built like Worf.
Spies and assassins are lightweight so that they can look unthreatening, unassuming, and move completely in 🥷stealth-mode from the shadows.
And their offensive/defensive capabilities are designed primarily for quick strikes/death blows or if need be quick escapes/exfiltration.
Spies and assassins like Garak will never get into a protracted fight, because that will easily prove deadly for them and would compromise whatever secrets and intel that they have with them.
Love how they accidentally broke the Jeffrey's tube door, so they added in a crashy metal sound for it instead of reshooting that part of the scene.
It was the season finale so maybe the actors just wanted to go home for the hiatus.
@@redpillfreedom6692 There's no guarantee they filmed this scene last, although this was the last episode produced for that season.
They didn't have to add any sound. That was the sound it made. DUH.
I think they left it in, because those doors are supposed to be futuristic wonder materials, super strong, and it just breaking like that helps demonstrate that both races, the cardassians and the Klingons are strong, sturdy warrior races
The problem for Worf (on top of the whole honor thing) is the Gamma Quadrant descending into anarchy with the Jem'Hadar going nuts. Billions upon billions would still be dead only now it'd be the peoples of the Gamma Quadrant sufffering. Having been raised by the Federation, Worf views the lives of those outside his collective as important as those inside. Therefore a Gamma Quadrant in ruins is no better than an Alpha Quadrant in ruins. Despite having spent so much time with Bashir, Garak still hasn't realized that aspect of Federation psychology so he makes the mistake of appealing to Worf's sense of self-preservation.
To me this scene goes back to who these two men's mentors were. Worf goes back to Picard whereas Garak goes back to Enabrin. Picard, being the quintessential Federation poster boy, isn't going to force pain on others to make his own life easier. Tain couldn't care less what happens to the outside world so long as Cardassia stays strong. But Worf isn't Picard and Garak isn't Enabrin. Worf skips the long Picard speech and gets right down to business. He isn't here to save Garak's soul or convince him of error, he's here to stop him. And Garak, after years on DS9, has started to realize the world outside Cardassia is also important. He's just not as broadminded as someone from the Federation would want.
I really love these two guys
+Julian Francisco Garak is of course also figuring without the Vorta, who have enough initiative and enough control of the Jem'hadar to hold things together, at least temporarily, and enact a campaign of revenge against the Alpha Quadrant races.
The irony is, the only way the Dominion holds together if Garak gets his way, is if they put Odo in charge. He's the only one of the Hundred whose whereabouts were known at the time.
The problem with Garak's plan (in my opinion) is that there is no guarantee that all of the Founders are on that planet, or even that he could kill them all before the Jem'Hadar destroyed the Defiant.
Which results in a few possibilities
1) Founder survivors accelerate the plans to attack the Federation (At this point the Federation shields are still useless against Dominion weaponry as far as I can recall, and they have had less time to prepare for them- so fewer ships/allies-so more casualties and maybe even ultimate defeat)
2) The Vorta take control of the Dominion (Most Jem'Hadar never actually meet the Founders, so won't suspect a thing, and the one's that are present would either go on a suicide attack on the Federation or commit suicide for failing the Founders)
3) The Jem'Hadar kill their Vorta overseers, and then go on a rampage, either enslaving or just killing as many races as possible until they are either all dead or everyone else is-either way catastrophic death toll.
TheDjbz the plan isn't, from my reading, to destroy the Dominion literally. It'd be akin to a terrorist attack that wipes out 90% of a country's leaders. It's fully expected that there will be a retaliatory attack handled by talented military personnel (since they weren't targeted) but the domestic situation will become so chaotic they'll have to withdraw eventually to keep their country from completely falling apart.
At this point in the war (or cold war) the Dominion didn't have all its nonaggression treaties in place so they wouldn't be able to just steamroll through the Alpha and Beta quadrants. And, more importantly, Garak is likely counting on getting rid of the united voice of the Changelings. It's very hard to play people against each other when their actions are being directed by a hive mind. If the Vorta were independant they'd be like any other power vulnerable to assassinations, kidnappings, and good old fashioned blackmail.
Pretty much
"You fight well.....for a tailor" - best line in the episode.
"What are our lives compared to the entire Alpha-Quadrant?!"
Honestly, I'd have been tempted.
1:52 when Worf is such a badass he breaks the Defiant. You thought there was a Jefferey's Tube behind that door? Nope, crafting bench and set materials. Take THAT, official schematics!
At 1:51 they knock over the plywood door that's supposed to resemble the entrance to the Jeffries tube. Guess they didn't feel the need for a reshoot.
Breaking the 5th wall. Really amps up the fight intensity!
Considering he's fighting Worf of all people, I'm surprised Garak lasted that long.
Garak's a good fighter, as I am sure one would have to be for an Obsidian Order agent. But not anywhere in the same league as Worf.
I suspect Garak too went a bit too easy, recalling Worf's abysmal combat record from the Enterprise as likely told by OBrian or just some basic research.
Worf was just letting garak do his thing
The number 2 man in the Cardassian secret police is probably quite well trained in combat.
@Blue Skeptic It was common knowledge by the time Worf arrived that Garak was an agent of the Obsidian Order in exhile. I don't think Worf would be Strategic Operations officer and de facto commander of the Defiant without being aware of that.
lol, they broke the set. :) I dont believe, the hatch was supposed to fall down.
Yeah I doubt that those tubes are supposed to have tables inside them
+TheDemoTube yeah seriously i actually have to wonder what the reaction of the actors were when they realized oh shit we broke the set.
Given how briefly we actually see it, it's likely the only real outcome was a need to re-shoot the following portion of the scene with a different camera angle, and cut early so that the gaffe doesn't show up for more than a split-second at worst.
Who knew the defiant Jeffries tube had a soundstage in it? 🤣
Come now TheDemoTube, you're a fan. Don't tell me you object to breaking the set a little to create one of the best series ever. 😏
One does have to love that Defiant's tube hatches are made from plywood at 1:50 one pops out when garak is pushed onto the wall xD I know i know the sets are fragile - but it was hilarious to see xD
Other than him blowing up the Roman Ambassador to get them into the Dominion War, this is probably my favorite Garak moment! I couldn't believe he challenged Worf and was willing to blow the founders to bits lol......EPIC!
ChicagoMarchingBands Romulan* :)
+ChicagoMarchingBands Garak is plain Awsome!
@@stanimirgeorgiev8596
True. But much about the Romulan (and Reman) society were/are pretty much inspired, if not modeled, after that of the Ancient Romans, anyway. Right?
I fucking love Worf. That last line and the way he says it is great:
"You fight well... for a tailor."
Response: "You fight like shit..." *wheeze* "...for a highly trained..." *cough* "...security officer."
Translation: "One of your blows stung me before I decided to fight."
Pretty much all Garak's lines are epic.
accroding to spock, garak's logic is spot on, the needs of the many, the trillions in the alpha quadrant, out weigh the needs of the few, the people on board the defiant.
You know it's kind of hilarious but I could see Spock going along with this.
There are always.... possibilities.
Logic allows you to be wrong with Authority....how could Garak be certain that all the founders were there?
Except that wiping out the founders DOESN’T wipe out the Dominion. The Vorta and Jem’Hadar are still there and would come to the Alpha Quadrant seeking vengeance. The war would be even worse, as their goal this time would be to destroy the Federation rather than absorb them. This was a foolish and impulsive decision on Garak’s part.
9752matt First off the White does not come from the Founders literally. They don’t actually make the stuff, other races do. This was shown with the Son’a in the Alpha Quadrant which were supplying the Dominion with White before the Enterprise-E stopped them.
Second the Vorta would have a purpose. Revenge. You really think they wouldn’t want to destroy the Federation for killing their gods? I understand Garak’s idea, decapite the leadership. But I honestly don’t think it would have prevented a war, I think it would have started one.
The most hilarious scene ever! "Come now, Mr Worf, you're a Klingon. Don't tell me you'd object to a little genocide in the name of self defense!" This makes me laugh every time!
I loved Garak's slow slip into madness.
Love Worf's palm strike elbow and hip throw combo 💪
I love that Garek doesn’t even start to lie in this scenario. We’ve all heard so many but he is honest when he realizes he has been caught.
Garak genuinely earned Worf respect here.
You have to give Garak credit; he's so pragmatically bloodthirsty he's almost Klingon..
He was my favorite character, always straddling the line between good and bad.
Gotta love them breaking the set at 1:51.
Knowing how the series played out, this would have save literally billions of lives if he was successful.
+Alex Gordon i feel like things worked out for the better though.
I don't think so. If Garak succeeded, the Dominion would be in the same position as Romulus a decade later, after the hypernova, or Vulcan in the alternate timeline after Nero. Only this time, unlike those two, the Dominion are ready and gunning for war - and vengeance, whatever the cost as was shown in "The Jem'Hadar." The war would have occurred a whole year earlier, and (on top of the individual changelings who perished on this day) billions MORE would have died on all sides. The vengeance war would be much more ferocious and dirty than the war we ended up with, with the Dominion possibly wishing to exact a proportionate, perhaps escalated, response to what happened here - by wiping out Earth, Romulus, Qo'noS, Cardassia Prime, Bajor and every other major Solid homeworld.
Basically, Worf was right. And unlike on TNG, he would not be denied this. :P
@@thewewguy8t88 as long as you are happy to volunteer you and your family to be one of the sacrificial billions
Not knowing the future with certainty makes Garak's action a bad one. But, if he knew the future, he was doing the right thing and many lives would have been saved.
I still maintain that this fight could've gone either way. Garak is a beast.
+DraculaCronqvist I love Garak, but he would have got rekt either way by Worf.
Nope. The second Worf started fighting, he took down Garak in short order.
Gowron has a challenger in the Crazy Eyes Contest!
A great scene from both actors! That was a pretty good scrap!
Nice to see Worf actually win a fight. In TNG he got the shit kicked out of him almost every episode...
Its actually called the Worf effect. Take the thoughest character and let the enemy beat him up to show his strength.
Because of that i found that Data was the true tough guy in TNG. He could beat any Klingon in Strength, any Vulcan in logic, any scientists in brain and one of the few Spot actually liked.
He did kill Duraz though.
Part of his agreement to do DS9 was that they wouldn't have him beaten up all the time.
And DS9 Worf is much better for it. I was never all that impressed with him as an actor in TNG; his performances in DS9, opposite a more generally skilled cast (Stewart being an outlier in TNG) with better scripts, really show him off much better.
I like how the bulkhead door just falls over like it's plastic.
I love how they left it in anyway, because that fight was so much fun they were happy to let it break the 4th wall.
Well...second wall, whatever.
One of the most intense scenes in the series
Garak was right! What are A few lives compared to saving millions of people? If Section 31 had knew of Garak plains of Destroying the Dominion They would sent Sloan to make sure Garak was successful in every way!
Maybe not. In truth, the Federation may have needed the Dominion to neutralize some of their enemies in the alpha quadrant. For instance, the Klingon empire was pulverized of its greatest warriors for a long time to come, and the Cardies were weakened and ultimately a billion died in the genocide by the Founders. These are things the Federation could never do on its own. So I bet S31 did some projections and made this determination.
@Thelondonbadger hold on. You trying to say they blew up the Klingon moon on praxis?
@Thelondonbadger you have no proof that such a pretty one was behind it. plus we will have to face the fact that that was a major coincidence and maybe a blessing for the alpha quadrant.
Just because I'm on I'm on praxis gets blown up does not mean section 31 was behind it.
And
Just because a admiral this'll be Starfleet order it makes a phase cloaking device does not mean section 31 was behind it.
We will have to face the fact that there are rogue admirals and officers in Starfleet other than section 31 undermines the values in the ideas of the federation.
@Thelondonbadger Fan books - LOL out loud.
One of the most surprising fights in ST DS9. Who knew Garak could fight? He was giving Worf "the goon hand!"
For Garak to hold his own against Worf, it's a huge compliment when Worf says "You fight well, for a tailor"
Wow, a fight in which Worf did not get his but kicked :-p . Way to go.
This shows Worf's Discipline and Honor. He resisted Garak's corruptive temptation, unlike others on DS9.
Worf hit Garak so hard, it knocked him into the real world for a moment...!
"you fight well...... For a tailor."
One of the great lines in DS9
You know... I like Garak a lot, but he's fucking insane. Maybe he appeals to my crazy side, and that scares me.
+ladynottingham89 You should see him in Hellraiser, or in Dirty Harry. :)
+Adam White OH WOW I just realized he played Frank's brother in Hellraiser.
+ladynottingham89 Not insane,just a realist who see things are they are and is willing to go beyond the parroted morals of the Federation.
The one day when The Worf Effect decided to take a holiday
The Worf Effect expired when TNG ended.
GOOF: When the door panel of the crawl space is knocked out..you can see the area behind the set.
The phrase: "Garak, you're fighting out of your weight class," comes to mind.
"A little genocide in the name of self-defence", hahaha
Admiral's bakula, sisko's and Picard salute you.
@@tonywebster8582 - Sisko I get. But Bakula ( Archer, really, but nevermind) and Picard?
"Wait here". Or, as it translates in Klingon, "Back the fuck up. I want this ass-kicking all for myself."
Damn, Garak knows to fight !
Remember he's a former super-spy. Worf is just lucky he has preferred emeritus main character plot armor, because Garak probably knows 100 ways of killing someone of any species in the alpha quadrant with his left pinky finger.
Garak: “EXTERMINATUS!”
Guard 1 "I hear fighting should we go in?"
Guard 2 "No way Worf said wait here, and I aint moving till HE says otherwise"
TNG: Worf gets hit, he goes down
DS9: Word gets hit, he hits back and win.
Little genocide, lol..
This is why I love Garak and what makes him such a complex character. A few episodes ago in "Our Man Bashir" he was willing to sacrifice the lives of Sisko, Dax, Kira and O'Brien in order safe his own butt. Here he is willing to bring his own life at stake in an attempt to safe the Alpha Quadrant. Brilliant guy.
I think Garak was consistent. In Our Man Bashir he values his own life above those of Sisko and the others. He has absolutely no reason to die for them. Earlier in this episode Garak was told by the female changeling that Cardassia was dead, that all Cadassians were dead. The Dominion was planning on committing genocide on his entire race. In that situation Garak valued the lives of his people above his own and everyone on the Defiant.
The whole conversation is filled with amazing quotes. "You fight well, for a tailor". DS9 is a classic.
Worf, who usually can beat 2-5 Klingons with his pinky finger, probably didn't let the idea that a mere Cardassian tailer is beating the shit out of him sink in untill 1:46 when he had this look on his face, that's when he realized that he needed to whoop Garak's ass for good
I think it was Garak calling him a "great disappointment" that did it. Prior to that he was doing his duty as a Starfleet officer to protect the lives of everyone on that ship; Garak just had to go and make things personal.
Making things personal with a Klingon: *Bad idea.*
Yup lol. He wasn't expecting a fight and after a few good punches for Garek he was like welp, guess I need to go into Klingon mode on this fool.
I remember watching this as a kid and enjoyed it so much.
me too
Palm, elbow, throw...flawless victory!💪😎
"You fight well, for a tailor."
Indeed. 😆 Let's remember Worf's and Garak's attitude's, later on, when the Federation finds itself in a war with the Dominion. The Dominion was _built_ by the Founders, but this does not mean that _eliminating_ the Founders will end the threat from what _was_ the _Dominion._ The fall of an empire _always_ creates a power vacuum.
Not in this case I don't think. The Founders were more than just leaders of the Dominion, they were Gods in the eyes of the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta. Everything they did they did for them. It's entirely possible that without the Founders to give them purpose, the Jem'Hadar and the Vorta would simply terminate themselves. The Dominion would then crumble virtually overnight.
Tetracell white would come to an end.
They couldn't have, they wouldn't have enough of white.
In Statistical Probabilities (s6e9), the GMO Squad seems to think that there's still enough White left for one last huge suicide run. This episode takes place a good season and a half prior to that, so presumably it'd be no less true at this point in the story.
There were more than just the Founders, Jem'Hadar and Vorta in the Dominion, I reckon if the Founders were wiped out the power vacuum would have caused species under the control of the Dominion to rise up and fight for their freedom. This would have splintered them and caused chaos. It would have saved the Alpha quadrant from from further invasion, though the Federation would have effectively caused genocide of the Founders since no-one would know Garak fired the shots and there would have been suicidal attacks against the Federation before the Dominion collapsed.
The meaning in this scene changes greatly in a later episode. Worf acknowledges that, had Garak wanted to, he could most likely have won their confrontation and gone on to fire the weapons. Worf admitting that someone could beat his ass is already rare enough, but further citing Garak's willing loss as a reason to trust him is quite surprising.
Garrick was a brilliant character, he did well against Worf who in all fairness really is a lethal fighter! despite TNG plot lines ruining his vibe! two amazing aliens! they earn respect with each other when they go into the prison camp
What I like about this fight is that Worf actually showed he's tough. Sure, Garak landed some blows, but Worf just shrugged them off and doesn't even look hurt when he puts Garak to the floor. His "You fight well for a tailor" comes across as "Congratulations, you made my day interesting." There's not enough of Worf showing his dominance as a Klingon. Because he's a *Klingon*. He should be feared for a reason, right?
OMG. Garak was so Brilliant. I miss him.
I am a warrior not a murderer- tell that to the tribbles.
They got brough back in time so they are still alive.
"You fight well... for a tailor..."
That's my favorite line of all the Star Trek shows, and films in all the franchise.
Yeah it's a good one 😅
"dido"
Mr. Garak is quite the Machiavellian sort.
That he is. Machiavelli however got stuff done and kept his countries interests well secured
@@jesseling2802 what are you talking about? Machiavelli was tortured and exiled...the only thing he ever accomplished was to write "The Prince" which he only did to gain favor with the Medicis. You're just wrong Jesse
I don't think you understand Machiavelli very well.
@@willowfrog33 He gained the position of being of charge or official Florentinian documents. Thats hardly collecting bottle caps
@@jesseling2802 go read your history Jr....you're way off
Garak always did see the big picture.
1:46 I love the look of shock and disbelief on Worf's face when Garak punches him. And at 1:50 I don't think the panel was meant to come off, there should be a jeffrey's tube behind it but it looks like its the studio. I guess they left it in because its not that noticeable.
Word did the open palm strike, then suddenly realized that he was on DS9 and not TNG and that he wasn’t contractually obligated to lose.
You know what the sad part is? Garak is a very _good_ tailor...
Which is to be expected. You don't go into subterfuge and fake being a tailor. Oh no. You actually need to be a tailor. To make it real. A simulacrum of a tailor won't do.
The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few.
Normally, this would be extremely hard to swallow, that Garak would initiate a close-quarters fight with Worf. But in this context, with Garak literally willing to die to settle things once and for all, it seems very believable that he would sucker-punch Worf and take his chances.
The GREAT Andrew Robinson. He also played one of the all time best bad guys SCORPIO! Arch nemesis to one Dirty Harry Callahan.
Yeah, about that "tailor" thing...
There is SO much murder in Garak's eyes
in the end garaks way would have been much better for the alpha quadrant and would have saved millions of lives
A matter of perspective. The Dominion would have collapsed into total anarchy taking the Gamma Quadrant with it. God knows how much collateral damage would spill over into the Alpha Quadrant.
one of the better scenes of the entire show.
What a great actor is Andrew J. Robinson indeed! ♥
The funny part is, Garak is willing to sacrifice his life, as well as lives of his friends and everybody else on the ship just to save his people from the dominion threat, hell, save the entire alpha quadrant from that threat. And yet he is banished from Cardassia and is considered a traitor by every single cardassian.
And Worf shows what exactly makes Starfleet and The Klingon Empire secondary powers in the alpha quadrant, standing below the Romulan Empire. Klingon Empire is bound by honor. Starfleet by their moral code. Romulans are not - they're more like Dominion, build by using all means necessary, without moral qualms.
+Isengrim R Romulans have morals too ya know! gosh so stereotypical...
+Isengrim R The Federation is larger and possesses more resources than either the Klingon or Romulan empires. The Romulans aren't very far behind, but they're not quite equals in power. The Federation even agreed not to develop cloaking devices as a way to maintain a power balance, so the Romulans didn't feel too threatened by the bigger guy next door because they can be sneakier.
It is worth keeping in mind that, in the prime universe at least, the Federation wins every war it gets into, or at least convinces the other side to agree to a peace treaty that the Federation finds acceptable - and the Feds have fought just about everyone at some point or another.
+pali1d Exactly. The Federation is really powerful. That's why I'm glad they learned from their experiences with the Borg and the Dominion, wanting to be explorers and live peacefully is great but don't scale back your fleet and field a bunch of scout ships in peacetime.
Isrngrim. He is more star trek than you could imagine.
Hard to imagine DS9 without Garak. One of the greatest characters in all of Star Trek and he's not even part of the main cast.
He didn't complete THIS specific objective,but he managed to complete others that were critical. Without Garak,the Alpha quadrant would most likely belong to the Dominion.
One of the few hand to hand fights Worf actually won.
Fascinating scene that reveals just how skilled Garak is in hand-to-hand combat. He held his own against Worf, thereby confirming just how dangerous Garak is.