The Rules of Acquisition are free for whoever wants to read them. Besides, you're missing the point. Quark was looking to sell his solution. The Rules of Acquisition was just enticement.
@@KarlRoyale At this point in time a complete list of the Rules of Acquisition are freely possible to look up on all Federation databases. WE don't have that yet... Memory Alpha has all the ones that we know of...
@@Iinvest2day true, the 34th rule of acquisition does state that war is good for business, but the 35th rule of acquisition states that peace is good for business.
@@robwalsh9843 The same was true of the Klingons and their supposed reverence for "honor", as we saw in TNG and DS9. Societies rarely live up to the ideals they espouse.
"I am a vulcan my emotional state is irrelevant" "Well I'm a ferengi and my emotional state is very relevant" Honestly best counter to vulcans getting on a high horse regarding emotions lol
A quote I once heard on a forum... "Facts don't care about your feelings until feelings don't care about your facts." It just seems really relevant to this particular discussion.
@@xLoLRaven Yo that's legendary. After this im gonna be quoting this like.. "A quote I once heard from a RUclips comment on a dated TV show that once heard it on a forum"
A very good point, and notice that the greatest of each species in the Trek verse are those who do not reject nor blindly follow their race’s ways. Spock learned that logic is only the beginning of wisdom, Worf learned that a true warrior knows when to extend the hand of diplomacy, Picard was capable of sound judgement but never blinded by his own opinions, and Quark knew the the hyper-utilitarian philosophy of the ferengi could be used to answer far more than greed as evidenced by this scene. These characters embody what makes Star Trek so great, in a world where one side clings to the good of the past and the other yearns for the possibilities of the future, Picard’s beautiful statement cuts through the noise, ‘there should be room enough for both in this life’.
There's a big difference between the Kardashians and the Cardassians. One is a hideous race of aliens seeking to conquer all they survey through fraud and deceit. The other is from Star Trek.
There are Four kinds of Ferengi you should fear The businessman who can school everyone else in their own fields of business but not himself The FCA Member who can find the slightest flaw in your business and manipulate it The Negus who can completely wipe your bloodline with just a few tosses of latinum And that one crazy bastard of a Ferengi who is more of a threat than Jem'hedar running low on Ketracel White
This gives me a haunting reminder of when Russia asked to join NATO and we said no. Then we invited near every neighboring country to Russia wne we promised we wouldn't.
34th rule of acquisition: "War is good for business". 35th rule of acquisition: "Peace is good for business". Both of these statements are true, albeit in completely opposing ways. War is good for business, but only if you're an arms dealer. Peace is good for business, UNLESS you're an arms dealer. Quark once mused that his brother made a fortune enough to buy his own moon by selling weapons. So I'll bet whenever Quark hears that a shipment of weapons was intercepted, or that an arms dealer has been arrested or assassinated by the other side, it's at least a bit cathartic for him.
I wish that more investors and would-be investors understood that. If you want to buy stocks, then you should want stock prices to go down. You should only want stock prices to go up, if you are looking to sell.
@@RichardX1 What you just said is true. But I was thinking more of that thing that Warren Buffet said that if you are a net buyer of anything, including stocks, then you want lower prices. If you are a net seller of anything, including stocks, then you want prices to go up.
then why did that seem to happen in pretty much every encounter vulcans had? seems their role was to posture as logical af while constantly being hilariously irrational 24/7
@@sharpnova2 I think it's for Vulcans to learn firsthand the most real truth: Those who claim to have supreme knowledge often don't, and sound logic can come from the most unthinkable sources. Only by learning this first hand can they improve their own logic, reasoning, and understanding.
@@feartheghus Actually, he just invests heavily in resources more valuable than mere latium. His connections and experience alone are of mind boggling value.
emotional yes. But not necessarily illogical. With the right starting premises, any conclusion can be proven logically. Including one's own superiority.
@@Sewblon Actually, superiority is entirely circumstantial. If you want to talk about momentary advantages then that is another story. Pride though is all about presentation, never about substance. Just because Vulcans have many advantages as a species doesn't mean they are superior in every situation. Diplomacy for instance requires empathy and the capacity to feel emotions at a larger spectrum, because one needs to understand the emotional state of those they are speaking with and to accommodate their perspectives. No one has ever convinced anyone of anything by being pigheaded other than they can't be reasoned with. From what I have seen of Vulcans they lack a lot of what makes a logical individual. The capacity to understand ones limitations and the willingness to embrace new ideas are some of the things that identify an intelligent and competent person. People who see facts aren't inherently logical, they are simply observing what is presented. That is a powerful tool in its own right, but without any kind of flexible thinking to interpret and to find different uses for it, there is very little that can be done with that knowledge. Logic is not what Vulcans actually believe in. They seek objectivity in everything they do, and that means a removal of the self. It means their individuality and identity, experiences and sensations, are all seen as distractions to the one truth. It is why Spock saw Data and compared them to being the Vulcan ideal. This all said, I am done with my essay. ;p Hope I wasn't coming off as a jerk.
@@beckaldo8741 Its true that pride is entirely circumstantial. But most of the things that people care about most of the time are entirely circumstantial. Truly universal truths like the law of identity do matter. But they are never the only thing that matters, at least, not as far as I know. The things that determine how tall you are. How smart you are, how many friends you have, and how long you live, and how many descendants you have, are largely a combination of biological, social, and economic accidents of circumstance, not universal laws like the quadratic formula, at least not directly. Its true that what Vulcan's actually value is objectivity, not logic. But what does that have to do with anything?
This one scene changed the Ferengi in my eyes. The Rules of Acquisition are made to be interpreted to fit any situation. They aren't just greedy money hungry space scammers.
I'm sure Armin Shimerman would be happy to hear that. IIRC one of the major reason that he took the role is that he played two Ferengi in TNG seasons 1&2 and was really up unhappy with how poorly the Ferengi were written there and Quark gave him an opportunity to correct that failure.
hibbidyjibbidyy it is also illogical to choose a mate based on aesthetic value. Vulcan marriages are arranged anyway. I’ve always thought the way that they do vulcan’s and all other species makeup is very stupid in trek. They’re aliens they have different aesthetic values!
@@tonoornottono They are bipedal humanoids. They would have similar values to humans, especially if they are mammals. The blue eye shadow I never considered makeup. I always assumed it was a tint in the skin. However it could be makeup. It might be a hold over from centuries past. Presenting yourself with hygienic confidence, and dignity has logic to it. It shows a self discipline, and care, which can translate to work ethic. Also Vulcans do have emotions. They can run deep, but they are there. Then consider it is a TV show. Every thing must be filtered through the rule of "what looks good on camera".
Dirus If make-up is a marker of discipline and work ethic, why do we never see male vulcans wearing makeup? Personally I just see it as the costume department not really seeing the point. Though obviously there were standards for how women should look on camera I think it’s sort of weird that a culture like that would have specific feminine or masculine rituals of dress.
She was on a Federation station doing business with a Ferengi male. Logic suggests that being conservatively dressed and appearing attractive would yield the best deal.
Except for the line about being confused. There was a time when Vulcans were following in Spock's shoes. The last one was featured in JJ Trek. Kirstie Alley did a better job than the bearded hipster of STD.
@@Rhythmicons But Ethan wasn't supposed to. He was explicitly playing a younger Spock, one who was still settling into himself. He wasn't playing the Spock of Kirk, but the Spock as Leonard Nimoy played him in "The Cage" who actually was more openly emotional (Nimoy played him that way since Pike was emotionally reserved, against Shatner's Kirk, who was emotional he contrasted with a stoic Spock). Ethan Peck did an excellent job. Looks weird without the beard though.
@@3Rayfire Ethan, having not had the benefit of consultation with Nimoy, had to interpret the character his own way. There is a clear difference in people who have played Vulcans who have had the benefit of Nimoy's guidance vs those who have not. It is Nimoy's character after all. I have to disagree with you. Vulcans have a way about them that is in their culture that is different from their personality.
I like the idea of the Ferengi philosophy being kind of a steelman argument for market capitalism. Sure, they’re as prone as anyone else to being wrong about things and to being sometimes blinded to the pragmatic reality of a situation by their philosophical idealism, but at least the series goes to great lengths to show their philosophy is coherent and mostly arrived at in good faith.
DS9 also makes it clear that it *is* a philosophy, not some innate trait of their species. Like, it isnt inevitable that Ferengi will all behave this way, and their society can change.
They have a lot of bad advice for anyone trying to maximize profits as I recall which leads to them constantly having to find new markets which aren't wise to them. If they were really a steel man argument you think they would have figured out how to manage their business better than our real world ones do.
@@Furluge I think a big part is recognizing that writers are not experts on all things they write about, especially fiction writers. To me it feels as if the _intent_ is to portray them as more or less sincerely caring about their philosophy and living productively by it. Of course, since they're all individuals, some care more than others, and some are just plainly more selfish and greedy than others, but there are greedy human space communists too.
In fairness, Quark is an unusual Ferengi - a true philosopher of commerce. By the end of the series, his insights go vastly deeper than just making money. True, he started with the principles of business, but then delved and delved until he got to the fundamental elements of cause and effect at their foundation. And that's simply genius.
Yeah. Deep Space Nine was the most carefully thought out series. What would it really be like, life in a space station light years away from Earth, home, situated in a most desolate corner of space, unknown to most, living in constant terror of war? I sure would find life there poetic.
@@RobMacKendrick Honestly, that's how it can often go: People following a philosophy or religion or such but often only a small number actually get the point behind it.
This was a moment that forever cemented the Ferengi as players in the main line of Trek. It was a brilliantly performed scene and the writing here was Flawless.
Fun fact: Armin Shimerman played a Ferengi during their very first appearance on TNG, back when they were supposed to replace the Klingons. He's extremely ashamed of his performance and was worried that he ruined the entire species as a concept.
@@CaptainSpycrab Think THAT one was the one that sold him that spaceship that malfunctioned and took Quark, Rom and Nog back to the1950s American Southwest and were taken into custody by the US military.
Up until DS9, we had only really encountered a few Ferengi, most of them had been bandits and other questionable characters who had a little trouble cutting the mustard back on their homeworld. Here we get to meet several of them who actually have their shit together.
@@warlockpaladin2261 they were not really bandits but captains serving the Ferengi Alliance, with their powerful ships that can challenge any Federation Startships
0:38 "Do you propose that YOU lecture ME on logic?" Her subtle tonal cues shows she's losing control of her emotions and thus her emotional state is relevant. Quark knows exactly how to manipulate her by attacking what Vulcans hold most dear to them. Vulcans are just as emotional as anyone else. Possibly even more so.
They are indeed. Their strict controls over their emotions (except in situations like this one 😁) came about because, in their history, they were on the verge of wiping themselves out due to letting their emotions run wild.
This scene shows a potential weakness that ANY Vulcan can fall prey to: They spend so much mental energy reigning in their emotions that they run the risk of getting caught in the weeds and fail to completely analyze their situation. Notice her answer when Quark asks her how much she's willing to pay for peace? "Whatever it costs," is not an answer, it's an empty platitude better suited for a grandstanding politician than an experienced negotiator. A skilled negotiator always goes in with a goal in mind, concessions and peace offerings they're willing to hand over to keep parties engaged and build trust, and a firmly established line that they're not willing to cross because it would cost them too much in terms of leverage and bargaining power. She doesn't have any of those 3 tenants established in her head, so she's completely unprepared and willing to walk to into a potential negotiation blind and at a disadvantage for the sake of 'Peace." One could only guess how badly the Kardassians would've tried to fleece her and screw over the Federation colonists for the sake of her wish for 'peace.' Or, as Quark posits, she attacks the Kardassians and causes an intergalactic incident that leads to all out war that would cost multiple years and billions of lives before peace and rebuilding could ever begin. Neither outcome is at all logical.
I love how Quark shows a reasonable depiction of Ferengi philosophy. Jargon aside, it's completely logical. One could argue the focus on paying as little as possible for maximum personal gain is selfish, but acquisitions can be anything from latium to peace and costs can be money or lives.
@Pro Tengu but logic does allow one to sort out the possibilities and make an educated decision based off of knowledge of the situation/problem which is the basis of all understanding, the ability to infer based off of data has allowed humanity to figure out combustion, flight, penicillin, etc. logic may not be THE most important tool humanity has at its disposal but it is definitely up there in terms of importance
A slight quibble with your wording, the 3rd rule says to never spend more for an acquisition than you have to, but nothing about maximizing personal benefits. Maximizing anything in the real world is usually a trap.
@@mycroft64089 true but his talk about maximizing is indeed self appointed. Where as peace is logical when it is logical and war is logical when it is logical.
Momentary peace is good for business when understanding the logical tolls of more war to aquire peace just makes it more expensive. When you can have peace and build yourself more until either you or someone else has an advantage
in this episode, Quark uses logic against a valcan and in "house of quark", he uses honor against a klingon. having a understanding of other caltures is very important for connecting to others and connecting to others is good for business.
Rune of Acquisition #76: Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies. Rule of Acquisition #35. Peace is good for business
to everyone complaining about Quark "giving" her a copy of the rules, they aren't a gift, he's creating a debt. "Remember that time I help you with that logic problem, then gave you gift of insight? well now you owe me."
It's also advantageous for him to spread the rules around for two reasons: First, it means in future interactions they'll have a common language and jargon which facilitates business. Second, that common language is one he's been schooled in since birth, She may learn it, but he lives and breathes it. In any dealings that can be boiled down to trade jargon, he will have an innate advantage
@@GerritDeSmedt If I remember, it was customary for the Ferengi to give copies of the Rules of Acquisition to anyone who wanted them. At first glance it seems like they would charge for it, but apparently it's like missionaries giving away bibles 😜
@@uniblab_2024 “honestly these rules are so commonplace in our homeworld we leave them in nightstands at hotels and even at public restrooms. We lost the keys to the printing factory.”
Quark is actually such an excellent character for illustrating that the Ferengi economic system is actually viable, and making them more than the 1 dimensional beings they were originally portrayed as.
@@TheKyrix82 Actually Nog's depiction of the great material continuum sounds a lot like Smithian economics. What Smith described as the invisible hand, Nog would recognize as the continuum moving goods from where they are to where they're needed.
Its a shit econonic philosophy, idk how anyone could support it while there's post scarcity economics that feature no monetary means. Like how regressive can you be? Simple minds though we have, your own cultural and personal bias is of courde reflecting defrnse for something that was be so obsolete its laughable. this shows more advanced then it even seems.
Stuff like this explains why ferengis are the only faction to have never been at war with anyone or even amongst themselves over the course of their entire history...
Only race in federation record that purchased the ability to travel at warp as well. Their history is amazingly free of bloodshed, choosing acquisition and trade over conflict early on. A positive spin on ultra capitalism, at least from what we’ve all seen.
War is bad for business for anyone that isn't an arms supplier anyway. Destroys infrastructure that other businesses could be using instead. Leaves people dead or being drafted into the military where they can't participate in the labor market which would drive up labor costs for everyone. Kills off potential customers which leaves you with less customers. So I could see the business oriented Ferengi trying to avoid war whenever possible for their bottom line if anything else and if you do decide to supply weapons of war sell them to someone else that is hopefully well away from Ferengi territory. The Ferengi obsession with their bottom line and profits has led to their own unique form of logic about things like that. Even them buying warp tech instead of developing it themselves makes sense from a business standpoint. Saved them the time and cost of doing the R&D themselves and then they only had to follow the blueprints they bought and it opens up the biggest potential new market there is outer space.
On the flip side, they'll sell to both sides to feed conflict. Team A needs weapons. Team B needs weapons. Both are buying, so sell, sell, sell. They are unscrupulous businessmen that I would never trust.
Selling to anyone that is buying is just good business though. Even selling to both sides. Historically weapons have been sold to both sides of a conflict by a neutral third party pretty often. Happens pretty often even now. Ferengi don't try to pretend they are something they are not. They are all about business and anyone that deals with them would know that. As long as you are getting the weapons you paid for then the Ferengi have filled their side of the deal. Ferengi are as close to a true neutral as you get. Only thing they care about is profit and they won't bullshit everyone and try to act all noble about it or virtue signal like the Federation. The Ferengi are not perfect but at the same time they don't try to act like they are either.
No but imagine the humans' first encounter with the Cardassians, and they introduce themselves: "We call ourselves humans"- "We call ourselves Flembotoorians"- *reading the room* "We have a better name for you"
He did say give, not gift. When I go to McDonalds, they give me my food. But they make sure I pay for it. I am sure he would have sent her a pay-on-delivery bill for them :P
Logical is to stand on the physical ideas and being material about everything compared to visual who can only be seen and not touched. That's why emotions are not illogical since it can be felt while art would be illogical since it's fake emotions as it's only an illustration of those feelings. Quark telling lies and ask the Vulcan to admit the lie to be true. No matter if the Vulcan tell they accept the lie they don't believe in the lie. The factory do not care what you produce.
Exactly. Logical argument proceeds from whatever premises the reasoner considers to be true. If those premises are faulty, the conclusions drawn will also be faulty, even if they're entirely logical.
Give her credit where it's due; the entire time her thousand-yard stare was affixed with the emotionally-strangled blank expression most full-blooded Vulcans have. But when she realizes Quark is right, you can *see* the dawning realization in her eyes in that final scene, almost like a literal light switch was flipped on. Conveying shifting emotions without blinking or any other facial expressions is damn impressive to me. Any actor trained to play a Vulcan must have an incredible poker face. 😅
Call it the "Leonard Nimoy Method," lol. He had a problem with playing Spock in the 60's at first because he wasn't sure how to play a character "without emotions." BUT obviously figured it out over the course of the the original Star Trek series and subsequent movies. It all comes from him.
@@KyokujiFGC I was going to post the same thing; she's not conveying emotions without expressions, she's acting out someone who has emotions but conceals them showing cracks in that mask.
Humans can understand long term gain. Humans just prefer the short term gains and leave the fallout to those who have to pick up after them. Usually their kids.
@@darkjesterxiii facts. The problem is the people making decisions with long-reaching repercussions are perfectly well aware they’ll be long dead before those repercussions become relevant
@@darkjesterxiii I'd say it's a bit more complicated than that. It's not "humans as a whole" that prefer short term gains, rather it's that those humans who value short term gains have used that initial start up to keep the long term folks from affecting real change.
Well, human business men figure it won't hurt them because they own all the boats and own most of the food/land. They just don't care about everyone else because they've been raised in a culture that tells them that because they did real good at the money factory market they're innately better than those born poorer and or less business savvy than them. They're wrong of course you can be business savvy and a moron with no other useful skills but they don't let that stop them.
Only quark would dare to school a Vulcan in the application of logic...and succeed at it.
9 лет назад+37
+Justin Benfield I don't think Kirk would shy away either. Picard would be too diplomatic for that but find another way and Janeway would blow them up.
+Martin Drkoš Kirk would probably try and fail absent plot armor requiring him to succeed at it. You're right, Picard would find another way, probably an appeal to morality or ethics in some form. As for Janeway, it's honestly hard to say because she's an incredibly inconsistent character (a function of two different writers with very different interpretations of who she was as a character).
+monokhem Not recently, but I watched a ton of it when I was younger (it was still on TV back then). I haven't seen much TOS, mostly TNG, DS9, and VOY, so I didn't see much of Spock's Mother.
I know they - and Armin Shimerman - tried to repair the Ferengi in DS9 but THIS scene right here drives that home. It shows how they are STILL a smart, functioning, warp capable species, while ALSO being driven by profit. Profit isn't ALWAYS monetary. Usually, but not always. Shimerman was amazing as Quark and this scene is perfect.
He also voiced guy who built an capitalist utopia and would rather drown it than let some conman take it over. Too bad his own ideas gave birth to that conman.
My college international relations teacher used this clip in our class to emphasize the use of diplomacy in foreign relations through economic security.
@bearjew trade schools are where its at i went for welding im 34 now im retired i drink and get stoned all day everyday i have a house that i love 2 vehicles that i love and i never got married so they cant golddig me i am a happy man
@bearjew the thing that helps is i didnt get into HUGE debt learning bullshit at college trade school was waaaaay cheaper and the stuff you learn is strictly related to the shit you go there for and you learn from people that fuckin work in that field we had a couple of older mechanics late 60s old old guys and you would be amazed at the shit those grease wizards would build
yeah and liberals are hating that right now. look at their reaction to all the possible wars we arent getting immersed in. theyre full of hate no matter what happens.
He's right - when no side has a clear advantage, it means they are more open to any ideas to get one, but also being more open to see the futility of their endeavour.
@Stripey Arse Was the cold war not resolved without a bullet being fired? At least by the major players? Proxies may have battled but there was no all out WW3. I think this is the point.
If you enjoy that line of logic, you may enjoy a sci-fi short story called First Contact in which two technologically advanced ships meet in deep space. The question is posed: Can we go home now, not knowing if we will be followed? Feel free to listen here: ruclips.net/video/UrL5oJ20CHo/видео.html
Quark & Garak, allowed the writers to introduce ideas into the story that in many cases, were antithetical to the philosophy of the Federation. Armin Shimerman as Quark, brought a lot of depth to the Ferengi & Andrew Robinson's portrayal of Garak was outstanding. He blended mystery, danger and charm into a great character and delivered some of the best moments of DS9.
@edgarortiz7136 Not just Garak. You're forgetting Dukat. Dukat was one of the most interesting villains Star Trek has seen. Conflicted. Egotistical. Tyrannical. Cruel and evil. But somehow he was 100% convinced he was the good guy in the story. It made him fascinating to watch, and Marc Alaimo was THE guy needed to pull off such a character.
I watched DS9 in my teens and the characters of Quark and Garak helped me see nuance in things. I used to believe communism was the answer (like most teens do). But after this show, I started looking into economic and political philosophies and changed my outlook a great deal.
So let's tally up Quark's coolness factor. He out-logicked a Vulcan, beat a Klingon with bookkeeping, was called "brave" by Chancellor Gowron, convinced the Prophets to turn Grand Nagus Zek back to his normal self, and he gets ALL the best girls.
Let's just face facts, Quark can connect dots nobody knows exists, paint a picture with it, sell it at a premium to the Federation, Klingons, AND Romulans, use the profits to bribe his way out of trouble, and use what's left to get "Garak... simple Garak" to tailor him a snazzy new suit to celebrate a job well done.
I loved the episode where Jake wanted to buy a rare baseball card for his dad, but had no money for it, because humans no longer use money. He spent the whole episode being lectured by Nog and Quark about the fact that he obviously DID need money, since he wanted to BUY something. :)
Don’t forget he ALSO was able to use a very inexpensive and simple means to extract information about the mine-field’s weakness-get the man with knowledge drunk.
Tigerman1138 That's a pretty good and near fool proof method of interrogation. The subjects have no idea their being interrogated and it's an excuse to watch and laugh at people who get piss drunk.
How do you even pick the best characters in that series. There's way too many good ones. Crazy too that some of the best are more considered secondary characters like Quark and Garak.
How do you even pick the best characters in that series. There's way too many good ones. Crazy too that some of the best are more considered secondary characters like Quark and Garak.
Absolutely. I'm rewatching ds9 but primarily for the quark centered episodes. He steals the scenes he's in. The dynamic between him and Odo or Dax was ST DS9 at its best
Just like the Cuban missile crisis: “they have weapons, you have weapons, everyone has weapons, but right now no one has a clear advantage. Now’s the perfect time to thrash out an agreement”
Apparently you are as old as I am to remember JFK on TV in October 1962 talking about it. I wanted him to do a surprise attack on Cuba even though it is the country I and my parents were born.
@@luislaplume8261 You don't have to be born in the 60's to remember JFK. I'm only 19 and I consider him to be the best president the United States has ever had.
@@luislaplume8261 He did. It didn't end well. Listening to CIA "advice" rarely does:D And right after revolution _the price of acquisition of Cuba was at the all time low._ Instead of antagonizing cubans and pushing them into the open arms of the soviets. A small diplomatic favour here, a small loan to rebuild the country there. And Castro, who fanboyed for FDR to begin with, would have been a poster boy "domestic commie" so useful for propaganda. Judging by your attitude you are coming from a family of one of the landlords, who created a fertile soil for revolution in the first place, am I right?
@@TheArklyte You are WRONG! My late father used the rent money to use to do house repairs and upgrades, and pay property taxes as well as income. We lived in a 2 story house that he bought in December 1963, and it was 40 yards away from the Jamaica Ave El. on Jamaica Ave. My late mother went to work in order to also pay the mortgage on the house that he bought from the Jamaica Savings Bank in Jamaica, Queens in NYC. You know next to nothing about basic economics which I learned in school in the 1960s Mad Men era. NYC was and is the financial Capital of America during the colonial era and up til today. Even though Philadelphia was larger in size and population in the colonial era and the early years of this republic until 1830. It has and has the most influential place in place.
This was easily one of Quark's finest moments, and the only scene in which the Ferengi way of life seemed to make *sense*. For this one, eloquent moment, we saw how the Ferengi had been able to survive all of these years, and what made their way of life livable.
***** Not to sound quarrelsome, but that's not *quite* true. The Ferengi hadn't fought in a large-scale, interstellar war, but they did fight occasionally, and they did fight each other in their early history: Nog, remarking on the fast pace of human history, points out that they needed 10,000 years just to establish the Ferengi Alliance. What they didn't have, Quark pointed out once, was genocide or chattel slavery in their history. Neither did they irradiate their own planet with the indiscriminate use of nuclear fission. but I digress.
Nick Hentschel I was always a little disturbed by the way they treat their women as chattel though. Not only does that not really fit with that previous narrative as you put it, but also with the meritocratic parts of their outlook. I'm not sure whether that's saying something about the nearsightedness of the species or it's just the writers doing a little American jabbing.
The Bellman Excuse me, but that's changing the subject a bit. I don't recall stating any sort of "narrative" like you describe, much less calling Ferengi culture a meritocracy. You're reading far too much into what I said. All I said, was that this scene showed how there was *some* logic in the Ferengi's point of view, and that in turn, this suggested how their seemingly warped culture had survived. I never touched on the status of women, or the other topics you mention, and frankly, the "chattel" issue isn't relevant to this scene.
Nick Hentschel I just wanted to introduce a question. You did put forth Quark's narrative about how the Ferengi never had Chattel slavery or genocide, and their survival of the fittest outlook was to their advantage, which is why I said it's odd that the status of women in their society didn't evolve down a similar path. That's all.
The Bellman Sorry; let me back up a bit here. First, please pardon me for sounding snappish. I've had recent problems, right here on YT, with people who hijacked conversations without permission, trying to drag me into side subjects that I didn't feel like discussing. They even got mad at me when I refused to do so, and I'm afraid it's made me defensive. Second, I thought you were responding to my original post, not the side discussion I started with CYP. I did get involved with a disucssion of the Ferengi's history, and it included a mention of the Ferengi not engaging in what I should have called, "commercial" slavery. Even so, I was mostly correcting CYP's misquotes, with much of my own information coming from Memory Alpha (the Star Trek Wiki). Again, I never called the Ferengi, "meritocrats," nor defended, "survival of the fittest." You're still reading things into my remarks that I didn't say. I simply pointed out that the profit-minded view had some validity here, and that is shed light on Ferengi history as a whole.
2:33 When you realize you're 100 years old, incredibly intelligent and logical but you just got your ass handed over to you ON LOGIC by a Ferengi bartender.
@@matthewkreps3352 On a station in the middle of an area that is contested space in all but name only. He's come back from nearly full failure of his business multiple times. He's a survivor, and survivors aren't know to be stupid. His family has a tendency to be very smart too. Rom aside, his nephew Nog "beat" the Kobiashi Maru by causing the program to completely crash when he engaged the AI in a prolonged negotiations for the freedom of the crew. XD
To be fair to that Vulcan, she was approaching the logic from the wrong angle. Her logic was sound, if you failed to take into account alternative courses of action. Quark simply presented her with another perspective and another approach to resolving the conflict.
There are two times when it is appropriate to sue for peace. 1. When no one can win. 2. When it is painfully obvious who has won. Quark had to teach a Vulcan about point 1- 😂
This sounds like a lesson Andrew Ryan from Bioshock 1 could learn from because his management of Rapture fell apart really quickly. Fun fact Quark's actor did the voice of Andrew Ryan in the game.
That's also very funny because Andrew Ryan is very similar in political ideology to Mr House from Fallout, who is voiced by the actor of Odo. The Stupendium references this in his Mr House rap, when he says "ask my buddy, Andrew Ryan"
I seen a few comments about how some of the Vulcan's remarks were emotional in nature. I remind you that at no time does the Star Trek universe ever claim that Vulcans have no emotions, it only claims they have learned to control them, but that doesn't mean they don't surface, sometimes under the mistaken guise of logic.
Or at least convince themselves that they are under control. One of the things I liked about Star Trek Enterprise, is it kind of reveals that vulcan emotionlessness is bit of a smoke and mirrors show. Under the surface most of them are utterly bubbling with emotions, with a huge amount of mental energy required to keep it under control so none of the other vulcans will know that they are struggling. But in reality, they are all struggling.
@@shayneoneill1506 I always found Tuvok from Voyager to be a good example of this. It was the first time since TOS that a Vulcan was a part of the Senior Officers and it showed that even a Vulcan can let their mask slip under adverse circumstances. Like that once episode where you hear Tuvok screaming from being tortured, then he acts like it wasn't a big deal. Absolutely chilling.
I remember hearing Spock claim (or reading him claim in a book) that Vulcans have no emotions. Keep in mind it's been years since I saw the show, so I might be misremembering. Assuming I recall right, it was still clearly Vulcan decorum, or applying what he'd learned (that denying your emotions helps you stay logical). On occasions when it comes up in private (like Spock with Kirk, or Tuvok in sickbay with the Doctor), the Vulcans readily admit they have emotions that run deep and possibly more intense than other races.
One of my favourite podcasters, Dan Carlin, once said that wars are basically the question of "How many atrocities are you willing to acquire to achieve your goal?". In that lens, Quark is 100% right: going for the maximum possible cost is ridiculous, and frankly horrifying. Peace and diplomacy is alway the best choice for either side, as it is the "cheapest"
You could even add on to the metaphor with the fact that escalating the conflict in this case not only drives up the cost of peace in terms of lives, material, and territory, but also in terms of the sheer time and the labor that goes into maintaining a conflict
Wrong. Peace and diplomacy were not the best choice right before every rightful revolution in history. Violence against those who make peace impossible, while perpetuating oppression, is the best choice.
It depends. Sometimes peace is the cheapest solution. But sometimes trying to keep up a peace by all means necesarry can be just as costly or even more costly then war. And sometimes war can be the cheapest solution to a long standing conflict.
He's quite right. When everyone has a gun, no one wants to fire. There are two outcomes of continuing with aggression. They get the bigger gun and attack, or you get the bigger gun and have to use it to attack.
& the more lives lost, the less interested they are in seeing the other side fairly, the more invested they become in winning, and the less interested they are in compromise. That's what I took from his speech anyway.
This actually translates to a moment in an entirely different sci-fi show, Stargate SG-1. In one episode, one of the protagonists (Daniel Jackson) gets tons of advanced alien tech transferred into his brain. He proceeds to build a planetary defense system made of advanced defense satellites with said alien tech on board. However, those satellites suddenly provided the US with an unparalleled global advantage, and they swiftly started to bully other countries, because no one, not even Russia or China, could even remotely hurt the US anymore.
I've rewatched this clip multiple times and what's so brilliant about it is that the Vulcan never thought of peace as a commodity which is why Quark discussing it like one was so "confusing" it shows how culture makes such a difference.
My only issue with this, is that a Ferengi would never drop a mic...not only does it cause a decrease in the resale value of said mic, but the resulting feedback of an audio recording instrument hitting the floor is incredibly painful on the lobes.
Quark may be a corrupt toad some times, but he was also right in a lot of ways. Using the Rules of aquasition he has managed to save a Klingon house, teach a Vulcan about logic, safe the station, put Kira in her place about the Dominion occupation, AND save Sisko's marriage.
An opportunistic toad, besides the few times they regress him to TNG Ferengi dastardlyness so they could have a proper mini villain every once and awhile in the early seasons.
More like an ethical compass. A merchant wants a stable system with as many customers as possible, and also one that he can subvert for personal gains when he wants, especially when he can have a hand in shaping that system to benefit himself in some way.
Quark is the best. At first blush he comes off as another latinum hungry Ferengi. But once you get to know him better you realize he has a lot of depth. He wants latinum because having lots of it makes for a good Ferengi. That is what his whole character revolves around. He cares for his brother and his nephew and the crew of DS9, but as a good Ferengi the rules of Acquisition underpin his every thought and action. He is a Ferengi of his times and he wants to be as good a Ferengi as Sisko wants to be a good Starfleet officer.
Basically, the Rules of Acquisition are his Bible. In the Behind the Scenes, the director even said Quark was the most religious character in the series.
Quark turned from a egotistical jerk I didn’t like into a character with a huge heart who in the long run just wants to help his friends. He helped Odo get Kira and when Nog lost his leg at the planet he suddenly forgot about himself and became only interested in protecting nog. He helped get the dominion off DS9 during the occupation and is just a great guy. He’s one of my favorite characters.
It's really a very simple sleight-of-hand that explains why Quark works. All you have to do is start viewing having friends, and having power over people by making them friends, making them want to repay favours - just start viewing all of those as equivalent to material wealth. One way to get all the latinum in the world is to have everyone want to give it to you. Quark, one of the most ardent proponents of the Laws of Acquisition, realises there is a return-on-interest in social connection. And at the end of the day - once you start doing that and start getting used to it, eventually just 'fuzzy warm feelings' can be payment themselves enough for smaller things. After all, if you're a better businessman while happy and content, then it's just another form of personal investment. All in the pursuit of latinum, which along the way, we didn't notice has been replaced for 'happiness'. That's the fun of Star Trek, that DS9 especially was better at realising on-screen than the other series' - morality is shades of grey and several layers deep, and actions can have a completely different tone depending on how zoomed-in - or zoomed-out - your viewpoint is.
@@ProcrastinationHyperfocus And that's why I like Star Trek. Character exploration and depth and how you can hate a character at the start of the show but by end grow to love them. Too bad that New Trek decided to throw that out in favor of all flash and little to no substance.
"Whatever it costs" is a rather....emotional....statement for a Vulcan to make. Like the Ferengi with their business sense, a Vulcan should have enough logical understanding to realize the current strategy was untenable in the long run. I miss THIS Trek.
Me too. Modern Trek in basically every one of it's incarnations has been reduced to villains and heroes at best and idiots being idiots at worst. I miss Trek.
@Neil Roy you misunderstand, it's not about the fact that Vulcan's have emotions it's about the Vulcan logic so what Quark is saying should have been apparent from the beginning without Quark having to explain it.
@@Jadefox32 I think those were just two logical perspectives. The Vulcan wanted peace more than anything else, so it's logical they would pay any price. Quark's logic was that even peace should have a limited price tag, or at least that you should try to acquire it at a discount. I don't think those two views are mutually exclusive. What's logical is very dependent on what you know or perceive at the time. Examples are plentiful: for instance, it's logical to terminate a contract with a business partner if it's not profitable, right? But then you realize that the partner is a global company that will open other opportunities in the future and suddenly, working without (immediate) profit might be the best and most logical business decision you will make in your life. Getting back to the scene, the Vulcan lady simply didn't perceive the facts the way Quark did. That didn't make her logic wrong, just inferior. And even that could be debated (for instance, she was willing to pay any price - including listening to a Ferengi. So she did, in fact, do whatever was necessary - willingness to pay any price is not mutually exclusive with willingness to pay a low price either).
But that's the thing. The Rules hold a similar place in Ferengi culture to something like The Art of War or The Book of Five Rings. So a warrior treats everything as War, A ferengi treats everything as Business, each applying their respective rules to every aspect of their lives.
Quark is a very unusual Ferengi. His whole family is different; his Moogie is a freethinker, his brother is a genius cinnamon-bun, his nephew is a Star Fleet officer, and Quark... he’s a people person.
@@SuperTonyony As parents, we tend to raise our often opposite or at least different than us on purpose by them offspring. It's just how it seems to work, since who really wants to the exact same as those that came before them? Even if they are their parents. Some will, and that's all fine for them; but most usually won't. (From my observations thus far.) But ultimately the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Some things will always stay the same. In that case, I wonder what was the same about their father that he shares with them.
Frank Bowman Yes, Rom took after his father-a poor Ferengi in training his family. Quark took after his mother with innovation and free-thinking. That is why Quark is Quark.
This reminds me of that Doctor Who speech: "When you fire that first shot, you have no idea who's going to die. How much blood will spill until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning; sit down and talk." Peace can be earned the easy way or the hard way; you can sit down and talk now, or after many needless casualties.
Yah but the thing about peace is that it only works if both sides want it. WW1 taught us that war is hell but ww2 taught us that appeasement is a greater hell.
Just a friendly reminder that Vulcans aren't unemotional. Quite the opposite, they practice such control because they are _highly_ emotional and those emotions dominate them when they allow it. Here, we get to see one succumb to their pride, then regain control with the help of another. _Now imagine if a Vulcan got _*_mad_*_ and they had no acquaintances to aid them._
The writers of Star Trek were so intelligent they could have philosophical dialogue based on how certain characters from certain species would approach it. That is so insanely hard to do I am impressed as hell every time it's pulled off
It’s also why I despise how dumbed-down modern Trek is. The writers are incapable of keeping their personal political viewpoints from bleeding into *EVERY* character. Old Trek was smart enough to have characters actually hold positions that were believable given their characterizations. There were morals to the stories, but they didn’t hit you over the head with “VIEWPOINT I LIKE GOOD. VIEWPOINT I DONT LIKE BAD.” Old Trek wasn’t afraid to show the flaws of its heroes nor afraid to show the merits of its antagonists.
@@danielbrown001 To be fair Rom straight up directly quoted Karl Marx in one episode. And they wrote Ishka to openly manipulate Zek into agreeing with her own personal politics. Yet all of these don't compare to the massive dumpster heap of trash that is new trek
All they're doing is following virtues and ethical frameworks that have been established and known for decades. Maybe the Pherengi are Machiavellian while the Vulcan are consequentialists. This then philosophically dictates how the characters should be expected to react. Throw in the odd individual character quirk, and tadaaaa. It's quite mathematical and not nearly as difficult to execute as you'd think. I really think people should stop defaulting to an impressed state for the simple reason that they don't know what goes on behind the curtain and they don't care to attempt to understand it. You'll find it's actually a cheat code of life to be interested in how things work on a fundamental level rather that be put off by the complexity of small moving parts. This deliberate conscientiousness makes you a human commodity.
@@danielbrown001 well voyager was a mixed bag of really good and then on the other hand on the nose moralizing and painfully bad ethics and plots. Great ones like anything with 709 and the year of hell and then bad ones like tuvix, the cardassian Yahtzee doctor, and the experimental ftl flight were horrible
@@drb0mb All they WERE doing is that. They aren't doing that any longer. Having the formula doesn't make it meaningless, it's also necessary to follow the formula, and to do it well. Who else executes this formula so well that you are so unimpressed by this?
This is but one scene that demonstrates why DS9 was always my favorite iteration of the Trek universe. So many interesting people in one place, all different in some way, with bits of wisdom and great dialogue here and there, not to mention some laughs along the way.
@@rushthezeppelin theres always an exception because inflexability is its own problem. the problem is knowing when to use the exception. i would say some of the more greedy faringi are examples of failing to read a situation and getting themselves into troublle.
"peace is good, but how much are you willing to pay for it?" "whatever it costs!" "it's that kind of irresponsible spending that causes so many business ventures to fail!" I love how he uses economic jargon to describe the cost of peace. Peace at any cost is a terrible way of doing things.
It's also a terrible way to negotiate, and also highlights to those around you that you are acting from an emotion standpoint, not a controlled logical one. If you are willing to pay anything to get what you want, then the price will be high and don't be surprised by "artificial shortage" by dragging out the sale as much as possible to ensure more can be asked over time as you become more emotional and desperate to agree to whatever terms.
Every Wing Commander player knows that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance! Which is quite expensive when you think about it, all those cameras, spy networks etc.
"Remind me to give you a copy of the Rules. You never know when they might come in handy." Looks like he needs to reread them first. He should SELL her the rules!
Funny thing: in Star Trek Online, you need to spend in-game money (not necessarily real-world money, though it does speed the process up) to get a copy of the Rules of Acquisition. There are two copies: a very cheap one that lists them all out plain and simple, and a more expensive one with actual voice acting. Methinks Quark had something like this in mind. :D
Well, logic wasn't at fault, she simply didn't have all the data. You can have the best, most perfect computer in the world, if the input data is wrong, the output will be rubbish too.
"Then I'll make it so simple that EVEN A VULCAN can understand" So... it looks like Ferengi (or Quark at least) consider themselves smarter than Vulcans. This scene proves that they ain't that far from the truth. PS. In some novel Nog took the Kobayashi Maru test and the program crashed when he was about to negotiate out the survivors' return. A Ferengi was able to do something that no Vulcan or any Feddie had ever done before. And yeah, he did that simply with negotiating skills and no cheats unlike Kirk.
+Adiraiju "Rule of Aquisition #315: Beware the smart Ferengi, they understand business better than you do." Before anyone says there's no such rule, remember the unwritten rule. "When no appropriate rule applies, make one up."
+Adiraiju Ferengi are nihilists. The Vulcans believe that morality is logical. Of course, their reasoning has always been based around reasoning what is best for their society, not what is best for them personally, so if you take that goal as a given it still works.
+SpaceClaw Heh. I forget if it was in an episode or in a novel, but I recall Quark making up a 286th Rule after a particularly bad day at the bar. "When Morn leaves, it's all over."
War makes peace too expensive to invest in. As long as a deadlock between nations exist, peace is capable at the best point due to nations feeling they could be equally affected in a negative by war. Peace is cheap now. Take it.
hence why the usa and ussr never escalated tensions during the cold war. it was the same scenario, all out war would only end in negatives for both sides. making the eventual ability for peace talks after the fall of the ussr possible. he is right tho, once a deadlock stalemate happens, negotiating peace is a far better solution than continuing military actions. and military action should only ever be a last ditch effort for peace when agreements cannot be achieved.
I feel that that kind of "bargain" peace itself can often be a problem though. That's not the kind of peace you want, because it does not resolve underlying problems. Sometimes, war is just a necessity of humanity. Not war as a business, but war as war. Western civilization has gotten to where it is because of occasional conflicts and wars. War is almost Darwinistic on a huge scale. One side wins, the other loses, and the winning side's ideas are propagated. then there might be a challenge from opposing ideas etc etc. I mean, I agree, but I feel that cheap stalemate peace is not the best kind of peace. Not a longterm solution
+wakcedout There are problems with what you are saying. First, the USSR and the US didn't want to avoid an all out war. History is filled with all out wars. What they wanted to avoid was mutually assured destruction. So a big element was in the Cold war was trying to have first strike ability and to develop a threat of nuclear retaliation to deter a first strike. One scenario to avoid at all costs was the possibility of suffering a first strike without the opportunity of a retaliatory strike Furthermore, one of the consequences of the USSR and the US as nuclear powers is falling into the trap where escalation could get out of control and end up in a nuclear exchange, one power doing a first strike, and the other power delivering its retaliatory strike. However, this wasn't because of a fear of an out all war. Furthermore, even with the dangers of escalating tensions, tensions were escalated all the time. Sputnik was an escalation. The space race was one escalation after another. Developing new weapons systems against each others were escalation. Chinese and Soviet support of North Korea and the US supporting South Korea was an escalation. Soviet support for the Vietcong and the American attempt to prop up south vietnam was an escalation. The US supporting the Mujahideen "Freedom Fighters" to boot the Soviets out of Aghanistan was an escalation. At any rates these are only a few examples. Tensions would go up, down, up down, etc.
I love DS9 for many reasons, but I think my favorite is that they took the time to just explore and deepen the universe they had. The Ferengi were introduced as a cheap potshot at capitalism - and, let's face it, a not-so-subtle hint of Gene Roddenberry's attitudes towards Jews. But in DS9, we got Ferengi with different traits and values (to say nothing of Quark's cousin), we got to see their society grow and change with the times, we got to see them forming their own connections with species in the Gamma Quadrant and explore it in their own way, and we got speeches like this and the root beer conversation with Garak, which gave us the insight that their view of morality isn't fundamentally worse than anyone else's. Ironically, they became an example of self-improvement and cultural tolerance, the very things the Federation was supposed to be about. God, I miss this show.
I always found it so intriguing when star trek was able to base alien cultures around an entirely different morality system, and still have the audience grow to understand them and love them- Vulcans with Logic, Klingons with Honor, Ferengi with Business
@@Kyosukedono *well actually ...* Hyperbole aside though, i kind of agree with that statement. I'm not saying he would be better than all world leaders or even that he would make for a great leader. But currently the bar for being a better leader than some world leaders is at an historic low. It's funny that there's a real world parallel he is very comparable to. Honestly he would have very similar selfish policies. But contrary to his real world equivalent, he knows the value having a good - ish reputation and diplomacy. Ow and he's also literate and not senile.
@@Kyosukedono You dare say this in 2019? Trump? Putin? Kim Jong Un? The CCP? Ferengi may worship greed, but all but the most deranged and corrupt have some sense of restraint and honor.
I think Quark was, in the long run, a character who inspired my curiosity in studying economics - and also my enthusiasm when becoming a wine and spirits salesman 😄 I loved DS9 as a kid, that show realy was something special 😊
You’re assuming they want peace. I’m willing to bet that the major world powers wouldn’t mind a few million of the populace gone from their respective countries for the chance of economic superiority or advantage over the others. This speech is good for acquiring peace; not for business. How ironic it came from a Ferengi.
I have to agree. Without those two, you have these overly high minded and lofty debates, or some dire Sci-Fi circumstance, with the Ferengi, the storyline suddenly becomes relevant to the petty and greedy society we are all familiar with.
Oh dear Quark is in such a state that he’s willing to GIVE a copy of the rules instead of selling!
He never said it was a Full copy
The Rules of Acquisition are free for whoever wants to read them.
Besides, you're missing the point. Quark was looking to sell his solution. The Rules of Acquisition was just enticement.
If she were to ask later he would say, "Here I'll give you THIS copy at a bargain price. Just two bars, at that it's a GIFT!"
@@KarlRoyale At this point in time a complete list of the Rules of Acquisition are freely possible to look up on all Federation databases. WE don't have that yet... Memory Alpha has all the ones that we know of...
Most likely he thinks it will benefit him in a long run.
“Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies.” -Quark
True, but war is good for business
@@Iinvest2day true, the 34th rule of acquisition does state that war is good for business, but the 35th rule of acquisition states that peace is good for business.
"I play both sides. That way I always win."
“The Kardashians can’t be trusted.” -Quark
Huh, that's basically what's going on between palestine and israel
The more we see of ordinary Vulcans, the more we realize that it was actually Spock who was just that awesome.
Vulcans are a sad people. So much of their philosophy is based on hypocrisy.
It's made clear very quickly that Vulcans aren't anywhere near as logical and unemotional as they like to pretend they are.
Vulcans love to pretend they aren't emotional but they're the biggest fucking drama queens in the galaxy.
@@robwalsh9843 The same was true of the Klingons and their supposed reverence for "honor", as we saw in TNG and DS9. Societies rarely live up to the ideals they espouse.
He was half Human afterall!
"I am a vulcan my emotional state is irrelevant"
"Well I'm a ferengi and my emotional state is very relevant"
Honestly best counter to vulcans getting on a high horse regarding emotions lol
A quote I once heard on a forum... "Facts don't care about your feelings until feelings don't care about your facts." It just seems really relevant to this particular discussion.
@@xLoLRaven Yo that's legendary. After this im gonna be quoting this like..
"A quote I once heard from a RUclips comment on a dated TV show that once heard it on a forum"
@@ralek592 And the legend continues on!
Whiel to you it seems like a bother she is propably stating the obvious. Like she probably does not mean it that way.
"Do you propose to lecture me on logic?" 1 min. later... "I find this very confusing." Quark FTW!
Quark had sex with a Klingon, dissed a Vulcan with logic, and regularly outplays humans with his antics, Quark is OP
Don't forget the House of Quark!
Quark is a bit of a strange one of his kind. Not all Ferengis are like Quark
@@tek512 Well he did own a copy of "Vulcan Love Slave, Part II: The Revenge."
He's the bartender. He does whatever he wants and no one cares as long as it's legal.
A very good point, and notice that the greatest of each species in the Trek verse are those who do not reject nor blindly follow their race’s ways. Spock learned that logic is only the beginning of wisdom, Worf learned that a true warrior knows when to extend the hand of diplomacy, Picard was capable of sound judgement but never blinded by his own opinions, and Quark knew the the hyper-utilitarian philosophy of the ferengi could be used to answer far more than greed as evidenced by this scene. These characters embody what makes Star Trek so great, in a world where one side clings to the good of the past and the other yearns for the possibilities of the future, Picard’s beautiful statement cuts through the noise, ‘there should be room enough for both in this life’.
"I know the Kardashians can't be trusted"
He knew, he could see the future, and he warned us... We've failed him...
There's a big difference between the Kardashians and the Cardassians.
One is a hideous race of aliens seeking to conquer all they survey through fraud and deceit.
The other is from Star Trek.
@@brandenmcgee5125 chefs kiss
In everyone's defense, nobody expects Space Satan Dukat
I scrolled down specifically for this comment, I was not disappointed
@@Dawid.Wu_ me too 👏
Quark is the only person I know who can educate a Klingon about honor and school a Vulcan about logic.
he is what all ferengi could be but choose not to be
You know Quark?!
There are Four kinds of Ferengi you should fear
The businessman who can school everyone else in their own fields of business but not himself
The FCA Member who can find the slightest flaw in your business and manipulate it
The Negus who can completely wipe your bloodline with just a few tosses of latinum
And that one crazy bastard of a Ferengi who is more of a threat than Jem'hedar running low on Ketracel White
Damn that’s just facts
@@funkmantim2661 Quark, Brunt, Zek, and Leck.
“Peace can be bought at a bargain price and you don’t even realize it!”
That’s deep and powerful.
"Peace sells, but who's buying?" - Dave Mustaine
This gives me a haunting reminder of when Russia asked to join NATO and we said no. Then we invited near every neighboring country to Russia wne we promised we wouldn't.
“The Kardashians can’t be trusted.” -Quark
A capitalist would see the war as an endless growing business with no limitation.
34th rule of acquisition: "War is good for business".
35th rule of acquisition: "Peace is good for business".
Both of these statements are true, albeit in completely opposing ways.
War is good for business, but only if you're an arms dealer.
Peace is good for business, UNLESS you're an arms dealer.
Quark once mused that his brother made a fortune enough to buy his own moon by selling weapons. So I'll bet whenever Quark hears that a shipment of weapons was intercepted, or that an arms dealer has been arrested or assassinated by the other side, it's at least a bit cathartic for him.
"The Kardashians can't be trusted"
This series is cosmological decades ahead of it's time
They can be trusted to be conniving and proud. Give them an empty box, in exchange for not bombarding their world.
I feel like starting several RUclips accounts just to like this comment even more.
I couldn’t help but hear the same thing 😅
Cardassians.
Mmmm....does it really matter? There is a certain level of mirrored traits. @@xkm-thebasetecchannel3823
someone send Kanye this video
This whole conversation takes place for only one reason ... Quark doesn't sell weapons.
But at one point, he did.... But he screwed his cousin Galen over to get out of the biz.
Quark is more of a people person... and not a merchant of death
@@erichanastacio9695 yeah he find people are much cheeper to move around and you barely have to advertise
@@erichanastacio9695 less people means less customers
@@995cool ... which means your services are now at a premium.
I'd say the moral is "don't drive the price up when you're looking to buy!"
Pretty sure that's in the ferengi rules too
this shouod be rule of acquisition #2 which has, to my knowledge, never stated
I wish that more investors and would-be investors understood that. If you want to buy stocks, then you should want stock prices to go down. You should only want stock prices to go up, if you are looking to sell.
@@Sewblon or more accurately, you want prices to go up AFTER you buy and BEFORE you sell.
@@RichardX1 What you just said is true. But I was thinking more of that thing that Warren Buffet said that if you are a net buyer of anything, including stocks, then you want lower prices. If you are a net seller of anything, including stocks, then you want prices to go up.
This is so well-written. Especially the sudden humor. "They have weapons, you have weapons (throws up hands) everyone has weapons!"
Oprah
Ira Steven Behr is a very talented writer.
Quark has a relative that owns a moon due to everyone having weapons.
0:54 Ehm - He was gonna GIVE her a copy.
Its data probably it cost nothing, she with the book could be a better customer and good customers are like latinum, hes getting latinum for nothing
The Vulcans always hated it when illogical, feeling species out thought them. But to their credit, they listened.
Perhaps one reason Vulcans sought first contact with new species, was in welcoming insight from different perspectives.
@@dougmillhoff9192 naw vulcans are just masochistic
then why did that seem to happen in pretty much every encounter vulcans had? seems their role was to posture as logical af while constantly being hilariously irrational 24/7
@@sharpnova2 FACT
@@sharpnova2 I think it's for Vulcans to learn firsthand the most real truth: Those who claim to have supreme knowledge often don't, and sound logic can come from the most unthinkable sources. Only by learning this first hand can they improve their own logic, reasoning, and understanding.
“I’ll make it so simple even a Vulcan can understand it.”
Damn Quark got all the sick burns
David Umstattd “he couldn’t find a glass of water if you threw him in a lake” quark, on rom.
Quark was amazing at sick burns.
Dfg Sdfg all programmed to assist Rom in the futile search for the water.
Dfg Sdfg well admittedly rom makes no money, so he’s basically inherently evil... or something.
@@feartheghus Actually, he just invests heavily in resources more valuable than mere latium. His connections and experience alone are of mind boggling value.
Sara Danhoff but that’s not a tangible asset.
"Do you propose to lecture ME on logic?"
Pride is an emotional, illogical state.
well he didn't want to.....but she left him no choice
emotional yes. But not necessarily illogical. With the right starting premises, any conclusion can be proven logically. Including one's own superiority.
@@Sewblon Actually, superiority is entirely circumstantial. If you want to talk about momentary advantages then that is another story. Pride though is all about presentation, never about substance. Just because Vulcans have many advantages as a species doesn't mean they are superior in every situation. Diplomacy for instance requires empathy and the capacity to feel emotions at a larger spectrum, because one needs to understand the emotional state of those they are speaking with and to accommodate their perspectives. No one has ever convinced anyone of anything by being pigheaded other than they can't be reasoned with. From what I have seen of Vulcans they lack a lot of what makes a logical individual. The capacity to understand ones limitations and the willingness to embrace new ideas are some of the things that identify an intelligent and competent person.
People who see facts aren't inherently logical, they are simply observing what is presented. That is a powerful tool in its own right, but without any kind of flexible thinking to interpret and to find different uses for it, there is very little that can be done with that knowledge. Logic is not what Vulcans actually believe in. They seek objectivity in everything they do, and that means a removal of the self. It means their individuality and identity, experiences and sensations, are all seen as distractions to the one truth. It is why Spock saw Data and compared them to being the Vulcan ideal.
This all said, I am done with my essay. ;p
Hope I wasn't coming off as a jerk.
@@beckaldo8741 Its true that pride is entirely circumstantial. But most of the things that people care about most of the time are entirely circumstantial. Truly universal truths like the law of identity do matter. But they are never the only thing that matters, at least, not as far as I know. The things that determine how tall you are. How smart you are, how many friends you have, and how long you live, and how many descendants you have, are largely a combination of biological, social, and economic accidents of circumstance, not universal laws like the quadratic formula, at least not directly.
Its true that what Vulcan's actually value is objectivity, not logic. But what does that have to do with anything?
@@Sewblon Mostly cause I am an insufferable twat. Sorry. o.o
This one scene changed the Ferengi in my eyes. The Rules of Acquisition are made to be interpreted to fit any situation. They aren't just greedy money hungry space scammers.
You know I'd take a Ferengi any day over the people with the car warranty scam or the "we are about to sue you" scam.
I'm sure Armin Shimerman would be happy to hear that. IIRC one of the major reason that he took the role is that he played two Ferengi in TNG seasons 1&2 and was really up unhappy with how poorly the Ferengi were written there and Quark gave him an opportunity to correct that failure.
My work E-mail signature has the 58th Rule on it. A coworker who saw it said he's fond of the 99th.
@@benjaminshropshire2900 i would love to get the opportunity to tell him that one day
@@blackjac5000 not gonna lie had to look both of them up
"I am a Vulcan, my emotional state is irrelevant. My eye makeup, on the other hand, is faaaaabulous."
hibbidyjibbidyy it is also illogical to choose a mate based on aesthetic value. Vulcan marriages are arranged anyway. I’ve always thought the way that they do vulcan’s and all other species makeup is very stupid in trek. They’re aliens they have different aesthetic values!
🤣🤣
@@tonoornottono They are bipedal humanoids. They would have similar values to humans, especially if they are mammals.
The blue eye shadow I never considered makeup. I always assumed it was a tint in the skin. However it could be makeup. It might be a hold over from centuries past. Presenting yourself with hygienic confidence, and dignity has logic to it. It shows a self discipline, and care, which can translate to work ethic. Also Vulcans do have emotions. They can run deep, but they are there.
Then consider it is a TV show. Every thing must be filtered through the rule of "what looks good on camera".
Dirus If make-up is a marker of discipline and work ethic, why do we never see male vulcans wearing makeup? Personally I just see it as the costume department not really seeing the point. Though obviously there were standards for how women should look on camera I think it’s sort of weird that a culture like that would have specific feminine or masculine rituals of dress.
She was on a Federation station doing business with a Ferengi male. Logic suggests that being conservatively dressed and appearing attractive would yield the best deal.
"You want to teach a Vulcan on logic?"
"I don't want to but you leave me no choice "
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
"I'm about to end this man's whole career."
~slaps the person next to me
Watch This...
I wanted to thumbs up but even Satan approves of this guy (right now it has 666 likes)
*sigh*
"Then I'll make it so simple that even a Vulcan can understand."
Thats a BOI moment right there
The actress in this scene does an outstanding job of portraying a Vulcan
almost like its her job or something
@@koro_kokoro Not all actors are good at their job or capture the nuances required in a role. If it were easy, actors would make $10/hour
Except for the line about being confused. There was a time when Vulcans were following in Spock's shoes. The last one was featured in JJ Trek. Kirstie Alley did a better job than the bearded hipster of STD.
@@Rhythmicons But Ethan wasn't supposed to. He was explicitly playing a younger Spock, one who was still settling into himself. He wasn't playing the Spock of Kirk, but the Spock as Leonard Nimoy played him in "The Cage" who actually was more openly emotional (Nimoy played him that way since Pike was emotionally reserved, against Shatner's Kirk, who was emotional he contrasted with a stoic Spock). Ethan Peck did an excellent job. Looks weird without the beard though.
@@3Rayfire Ethan, having not had the benefit of consultation with Nimoy, had to interpret the character his own way. There is a clear difference in people who have played Vulcans who have had the benefit of Nimoy's guidance vs those who have not. It is Nimoy's character after all. I have to disagree with you. Vulcans have a way about them that is in their culture that is different from their personality.
I like the idea of the Ferengi philosophy being kind of a steelman argument for market capitalism. Sure, they’re as prone as anyone else to being wrong about things and to being sometimes blinded to the pragmatic reality of a situation by their philosophical idealism, but at least the series goes to great lengths to show their philosophy is coherent and mostly arrived at in good faith.
Call it something like 'floating-point utilitarianism' and you'd have today's philosophers falling over themselves to endorse it.
DS9 also makes it clear that it *is* a philosophy, not some innate trait of their species. Like, it isnt inevitable that Ferengi will all behave this way, and their society can change.
@@seekingabsolution1907 And does change.
They have a lot of bad advice for anyone trying to maximize profits as I recall which leads to them constantly having to find new markets which aren't wise to them. If they were really a steel man argument you think they would have figured out how to manage their business better than our real world ones do.
@@Furluge I think a big part is recognizing that writers are not experts on all things they write about, especially fiction writers. To me it feels as if the _intent_ is to portray them as more or less sincerely caring about their philosophy and living productively by it. Of course, since they're all individuals, some care more than others, and some are just plainly more selfish and greedy than others, but there are greedy human space communists too.
It was in this moment, I fell in love with Deep Space Nine... A Ferengi teaching pacifism to a vulcan, by using the Rules of Acquisition.
In fairness, Quark is an unusual Ferengi - a true philosopher of commerce. By the end of the series, his insights go vastly deeper than just making money. True, he started with the principles of business, but then delved and delved until he got to the fundamental elements of cause and effect at their foundation. And that's simply genius.
@@RobMacKendrick Well said. Couldn't agree more!
Yeah. Deep Space Nine was the most carefully thought out series.
What would it really be like, life in a space station light years away from Earth, home, situated in a most desolate corner of space, unknown to most, living in constant terror of war? I sure would find life there poetic.
Not pacifism, remember that peace here depends on everyone at the table holding a gun, but realpolitik.
@@RobMacKendrick Honestly, that's how it can often go: People following a philosophy or religion or such but often only a small number actually get the point behind it.
This was a moment that forever cemented the Ferengi as players in the main line of Trek. It was a brilliantly performed scene and the writing here was Flawless.
Fun fact: Armin Shimerman played a Ferengi during their very first appearance on TNG, back when they were supposed to replace the Klingons.
He's extremely ashamed of his performance and was worried that he ruined the entire species as a concept.
@@CaptainSpycrab Was only a distant, several times removed, cousin.
Kurt Snyder Not the one that owned a moon.
@@CaptainSpycrab Think THAT one was the one that sold him that spaceship that malfunctioned and took Quark, Rom and Nog back to the1950s American Southwest and were taken into custody by the US military.
Kurt Snyder I think he was also the one that shot the Vorta hostage during the episode with Iggy Pop.
The Ferengi finally came into their own in DS9. Until then, they were a liability. The showrunners of DS9 were brilliant in how they used them.
Up until DS9, we had only really encountered a few Ferengi, most of them had been bandits and other questionable characters who had a little trouble cutting the mustard back on their homeworld. Here we get to meet several of them who actually have their shit together.
Wait you don't like the hissing, electric whip wielding weirdos of TNG?
@@warlockpaladin2261 they were not really bandits but captains serving the Ferengi Alliance, with their powerful ships that can challenge any Federation Startships
@@karatheloremaster Yeah, but far away from the people back on Ferenginar that they had to report their profit statements to.
Armin Shimmerman used to bring the ferengi cast to His house to rehearse to bring the best ferengi performance
0:38 "Do you propose that YOU lecture ME on logic?" Her subtle tonal cues shows she's losing control of her emotions and thus her emotional state is relevant.
Quark knows exactly how to manipulate her by attacking what Vulcans hold most dear to them. Vulcans are just as emotional as anyone else. Possibly even more so.
They are indeed. Their strict controls over their emotions (except in situations like this one 😁) came about because, in their history, they were on the verge of wiping themselves out due to letting their emotions run wild.
one would say, they are a vulcan(o) of emotions :D ready to blow :D
Ponfarr night at the Vulcan nightclub is like the Pompeii volcano eruption except it isn't ashes
It’s like when you go after a woke person with facts n logic and they only way they can defend themselves is screaming at you.
This scene shows a potential weakness that ANY Vulcan can fall prey to: They spend so much mental energy reigning in their emotions that they run the risk of getting caught in the weeds and fail to completely analyze their situation. Notice her answer when Quark asks her how much she's willing to pay for peace? "Whatever it costs," is not an answer, it's an empty platitude better suited for a grandstanding politician than an experienced negotiator. A skilled negotiator always goes in with a goal in mind, concessions and peace offerings they're willing to hand over to keep parties engaged and build trust, and a firmly established line that they're not willing to cross because it would cost them too much in terms of leverage and bargaining power. She doesn't have any of those 3 tenants established in her head, so she's completely unprepared and willing to walk to into a potential negotiation blind and at a disadvantage for the sake of 'Peace." One could only guess how badly the Kardassians would've tried to fleece her and screw over the Federation colonists for the sake of her wish for 'peace.' Or, as Quark posits, she attacks the Kardassians and causes an intergalactic incident that leads to all out war that would cost multiple years and billions of lives before peace and rebuilding could ever begin. Neither outcome is at all logical.
I love how Quark shows a reasonable depiction of Ferengi philosophy. Jargon aside, it's completely logical. One could argue the focus on paying as little as possible for maximum personal gain is selfish, but acquisitions can be anything from latium to peace and costs can be money or lives.
@Pro Tengu but logic does allow one to sort out the possibilities and make an educated decision based off of knowledge of the situation/problem which is the basis of all understanding, the ability to infer based off of data has allowed humanity to figure out combustion, flight, penicillin, etc. logic may not be THE most important tool humanity has at its disposal but it is definitely up there in terms of importance
It only seems selfish at first glance, but in reality it’s just prizing efficiency, ie, maximizing output while minimizing input.
A slight quibble with your wording, the 3rd rule says to never spend more for an acquisition than you have to, but nothing about maximizing personal benefits. Maximizing anything in the real world is usually a trap.
@@mycroft64089 true but his talk about maximizing is indeed self appointed.
Where as peace is logical when it is logical and war is logical when it is logical.
Momentary peace is good for business when understanding the logical tolls of more war to aquire peace just makes it more expensive.
When you can have peace and build yourself more until either you or someone else has an advantage
in this episode, Quark uses logic against a valcan and in "house of quark", he uses honor against a klingon. having a understanding of other caltures is very important for connecting to others and connecting to others is good for business.
Rune of Acquisition #76:
Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies.
Rule of Acquisition #35.
Peace is good for business
Skeptical Chris
Rule of Acquisition #34.
"War is good for business."
memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Ferengi_Rules_of_Acquisition
Michael Sykes That may be so, but Rule of Acquisition #125 states "You can't make a deal if you're dead."
Skeptical Chris
"Only a fool passes up a business opportunity."
that's not a rule of acquisition
to everyone complaining about Quark "giving" her a copy of the rules, they aren't a gift, he's creating a debt.
"Remember that time I help you with that logic problem, then gave you gift of insight? well now you owe me."
It's also advantageous for him to spread the rules around for two reasons: First, it means in future interactions they'll have a common language and jargon which facilitates business. Second, that common language is one he's been schooled in since birth, She may learn it, but he lives and breathes it. In any dealings that can be boiled down to trade jargon, he will have an innate advantage
I propose a counter argument, from what I remember, he wanted to have sex with her, so this him paving the road to sex with a gift.
Rule 59: Free advice is seldom cheap.
Rule 111 treat those in you debt like family exploit them
He might also be said to be purchasing an outcome he desires by paying for it with this information.
Quark, "Let me make it so simple that a Vulcan can understand"
All the Romulans: Bow down to Quark
Oh I could hear a Romulan laughing their ass off on Romulus while I was in my jail cell on DS9.
"Remind me to give you a copy of the Rule some time, you never know when they might come in handy." That was pure Columbo.
"Oh and one more thing..." Great show I grew up with.
To the letter
😂😂😊
"give" ??? slip of character right there.
@@GerritDeSmedt If I remember, it was customary for the Ferengi to give copies of the Rules of Acquisition to anyone who wanted them. At first glance it seems like they would charge for it, but apparently it's like missionaries giving away bibles 😜
@@uniblab_2024 “honestly these rules are so commonplace in our homeworld we leave them in nightstands at hotels and even at public restrooms. We lost the keys to the printing factory.”
Quark is actually such an excellent character for illustrating that the Ferengi economic system is actually viable, and making them more than the 1 dimensional beings they were originally portrayed as.
💯
Nog's explanation of 'The Great Material Continuum' makes greed sound altruistic. Basically, greed is good, selfishness is not
@@TheKyrix82 Actually Nog's depiction of the great material continuum sounds a lot like Smithian economics. What Smith described as the invisible hand, Nog would recognize as the continuum moving goods from where they are to where they're needed.
Its a shit econonic philosophy, idk how anyone could support it while there's post scarcity economics that feature no monetary means. Like how regressive can you be?
Simple minds though we have, your own cultural and personal bias is of courde reflecting defrnse for something that was be so obsolete its laughable. this shows more advanced then it even seems.
@Brandon Bee What the *fuck* are you on about?
Stuff like this explains why ferengis are the only faction to have never been at war with anyone or even amongst themselves over the course of their entire history...
Only race in federation record that purchased the ability to travel at warp as well. Their history is amazingly free of bloodshed, choosing acquisition and trade over conflict early on. A positive spin on ultra capitalism, at least from what we’ve all seen.
War is bad for business for anyone that isn't an arms supplier anyway. Destroys infrastructure that other businesses could be using instead. Leaves people dead or being drafted into the military where they can't participate in the labor market which would drive up labor costs for everyone. Kills off potential customers which leaves you with less customers. So I could see the business oriented Ferengi trying to avoid war whenever possible for their bottom line if anything else and if you do decide to supply weapons of war sell them to someone else that is hopefully well away from Ferengi territory. The Ferengi obsession with their bottom line and profits has led to their own unique form of logic about things like that. Even them buying warp tech instead of developing it themselves makes sense from a business standpoint. Saved them the time and cost of doing the R&D themselves and then they only had to follow the blueprints they bought and it opens up the biggest potential new market there is outer space.
On the flip side, they'll sell to both sides to feed conflict. Team A needs weapons. Team B needs weapons. Both are buying, so sell, sell, sell. They are unscrupulous businessmen that I would never trust.
Selling to anyone that is buying is just good business though. Even selling to both sides. Historically weapons have been sold to both sides of a conflict by a neutral third party pretty often. Happens pretty often even now. Ferengi don't try to pretend they are something they are not. They are all about business and anyone that deals with them would know that.
As long as you are getting the weapons you paid for then the Ferengi have filled their side of the deal. Ferengi are as close to a true neutral as you get. Only thing they care about is profit and they won't bullshit everyone and try to act all noble about it or virtue signal like the Federation. The Ferengi are not perfect but at the same time they don't try to act like they are either.
@@maiqtheliar789 it's logical or not, no unique forms.
0:15: "Look, I know the Kardashians can't be trusted..." Yeah, yeah, you're right, man.
Cardassians.
The Kardashians come from a different solar system called “Trash”
I thought the same thing 😅
“The fucking who now?!” 😨
Never a truer word said.
No but imagine the humans' first encounter with the Cardassians, and they introduce themselves: "We call ourselves humans"- "We call ourselves Flembotoorians"- *reading the room* "We have a better name for you"
One of the few scenes which portrays the Rules of Acquisition as a true philosophy rather than just a bunch of catchy regulations....
There was an episode of Voyager where two Ferengi posed as prophets and taught the rules of acquisition as tenets of faith.
They could have been interesting if the show wasn't so keen to set them up as jokes.
wight1984 I agree. They had potential to be more than comic relief.
The Ferengi rules of Acquisition is every Capitalists most inner thoughts, of course it's a true philosophy.
The Ferengi rules of Acquisition is every Capitalists most inner thoughts, of course it's a true philosophy.
"Is that logical?"
Her expression says, "I've just been gamed, but I can't quite figure out how."
5610winston And she is turned on too.
@@Tigerman1138 yup!
@@Tigerman1138 I mean, she is a Vulkin, logic from another Vulkin is par for the course, but being out-logic by someone from another species? Hot.
Dustin Eward
Not counting Pom-phar, of course, when even a gentle breeze on her skin would make her horny as a wildcat.
"peace with the cardassians". "in the long run". pick one
"Give" her a copy of the Rules of Acquisition? Is that Ferengi humor?
No. That's Ferengi philosophy. Of course she'll be charged for it. ^_~
+Jamie Rose Ferengi charity is wholesale. it's something that's important to remember because it's as a species
good catch.
Nothing wrong with Charity so long as it ends up in your pocket.
He did say give, not gift. When I go to McDonalds, they give me my food. But they make sure I pay for it. I am sure he would have sent her a pay-on-delivery bill for them :P
Reminds me of a quote I once heard: "Being logical is not the same as being right or even necessarily smart"
Logical is to stand on the physical ideas and being material about everything compared to visual who can only be seen and not touched. That's why emotions are not illogical since it can be felt while art would be illogical since it's fake emotions as it's only an illustration of those feelings.
Quark telling lies and ask the Vulcan to admit the lie to be true. No matter if the Vulcan tell they accept the lie they don't believe in the lie.
The factory do not care what you produce.
“Logic is the beginning of wisdom not the end.” - Spock
Exactly. Logical argument proceeds from whatever premises the reasoner considers to be true. If those premises are faulty, the conclusions drawn will also be faulty, even if they're entirely logical.
Richard Jeni had a bit on syllogisms, where If A = B And B = C Then A = C: if God is love and love is blind then Ray Charles is God.
pragmatism always one ups logic
Give her credit where it's due; the entire time her thousand-yard stare was affixed with the emotionally-strangled blank expression most full-blooded Vulcans have. But when she realizes Quark is right, you can *see* the dawning realization in her eyes in that final scene, almost like a literal light switch was flipped on. Conveying shifting emotions without blinking or any other facial expressions is damn impressive to me.
Any actor trained to play a Vulcan must have an incredible poker face. 😅
Call it the "Leonard Nimoy Method," lol. He had a problem with playing Spock in the 60's at first because he wasn't sure how to play a character "without emotions." BUT obviously figured it out over the course of the the original Star Trek series and subsequent movies. It all comes from him.
@@kapnerad At the end of the day, it's not that they don't experience any emotion, it's that they're incredibly good at suppressing them.
@@KyokujiFGC I was going to post the same thing; she's not conveying emotions without expressions, she's acting out someone who has emotions but conceals them showing cracks in that mask.
For real, she absolutely nailed it!
The actress has a RUclips channel I think. Pay her the compliment!
The ferengi, unlike human businessmen, can actually understand the value of long term gain over short term
Humans can understand long term gain. Humans just prefer the short term gains and leave the fallout to those who have to pick up after them. Usually their kids.
@@darkjesterxiii facts. The problem is the people making decisions with long-reaching repercussions are perfectly well aware they’ll be long dead before those repercussions become relevant
@@darkjesterxiii I'd say it's a bit more complicated than that. It's not "humans as a whole" that prefer short term gains, rather it's that those humans who value short term gains have used that initial start up to keep the long term folks from affecting real change.
Well, human business men figure it won't hurt them because they own all the boats and own most of the food/land. They just don't care about everyone else because they've been raised in a culture that tells them that because they did real good at the money factory market they're innately better than those born poorer and or less business savvy than them. They're wrong of course you can be business savvy and a moron with no other useful skills but they don't let that stop them.
please precise whether youre talking about people irl or trekkian humans LOL
Only quark would dare to school a Vulcan in the application of logic...and succeed at it.
+Justin Benfield I don't think Kirk would shy away either. Picard would be too diplomatic for that but find another way and Janeway would blow them up.
+Martin Drkoš Kirk would probably try and fail absent plot armor requiring him to succeed at it. You're right, Picard would find another way, probably an appeal to morality or ethics in some form. As for Janeway, it's honestly hard to say because she's an incredibly inconsistent character (a function of two different writers with very different interpretations of who she was as a character).
+monokhem Not recently, but I watched a ton of it when I was younger (it was still on TV back then). I haven't seen much TOS, mostly TNG, DS9, and VOY, so I didn't see much of Spock's Mother.
+Justin Benfield
Vulcans are good at logic.
They're bad at determining the truth of premises.
+Martin Drkoš
Kirk: I would not presume to debate you.
Spock: That is wise.
The Wrath of Khann
I know they - and Armin Shimerman - tried to repair the Ferengi in DS9 but THIS scene right here drives that home. It shows how they are STILL a smart, functioning, warp capable species, while ALSO being driven by profit. Profit isn't ALWAYS monetary. Usually, but not always.
Shimerman was amazing as Quark and this scene is perfect.
He also voiced guy who built an capitalist utopia and would rather drown it than let some conman take it over. Too bad his own ideas gave birth to that conman.
Shimerman also played one of the 1st Ferengis in the 1st ever ST epsisode that featured them on TNG!
Almost perfect - 0:54 He was gonna GIVE her a copy.
@@simonfrederiksen104 Yeah, and he was gonna give her a copy because that makes it easier to talk business. In the end it's all about business.
Best character in the series in my humble opinion .
My college international relations teacher used this clip in our class to emphasize the use of diplomacy in foreign relations through economic security.
I had something to add but motherfucking 99 red balloons started playing in German over the loud speaker. Now my mind is absolutely scattered.
@bearjew trade schools are where its at i went for welding im 34 now im retired i drink and get stoned all day everyday i have a house that i love 2 vehicles that i love and i never got married so they cant golddig me i am a happy man
@bearjew the thing that helps is i didnt get into HUGE debt learning bullshit at college trade school was waaaaay cheaper and the stuff you learn is strictly related to the shit you go there for and you learn from people that fuckin work in that field we had a couple of older mechanics late 60s old old guys and you would be amazed at the shit those grease wizards would build
yeah and liberals are hating that right now. look at their reaction to all the possible wars we arent getting immersed in. theyre full of hate no matter what happens.
@bearjew you could do it its quicker than college depending on what you go for
He's right - when no side has a clear advantage, it means they are more open to any ideas to get one, but also being more open to see the futility of their endeavour.
Prisoner's dilemma, which then leads to a Nash equilibrium
@Stripey Arse Was the cold war not resolved without a bullet being fired? At least by the major players? Proxies may have battled but there was no all out WW3. I think this is the point.
@Stripey Arse It was profitable for the warhawks.
If you enjoy that line of logic, you may enjoy a sci-fi short story called First Contact in which two technologically advanced ships meet in deep space. The question is posed: Can we go home now, not knowing if we will be followed? Feel free to listen here: ruclips.net/video/UrL5oJ20CHo/видео.html
@@CrustyWhiteBread If the big players did not fire any bullets, it's because of three words: Mutual Assured Destruction.
The most masterful writing of DS9 is how they managed to make a Ferengi and a Cardassian be the two most interesting characters in the whole series.
Quark & Garak, allowed the writers to introduce ideas into the story that in many cases, were antithetical to the philosophy of the Federation. Armin Shimerman as Quark, brought a lot of depth to the Ferengi & Andrew Robinson's portrayal of Garak was outstanding. He blended mystery, danger and charm into a great character and delivered some of the best moments of DS9.
@edgarortiz7136
Not just Garak. You're forgetting Dukat.
Dukat was one of the most interesting villains Star Trek has seen. Conflicted. Egotistical. Tyrannical. Cruel and evil. But somehow he was 100% convinced he was the good guy in the story.
It made him fascinating to watch, and Marc Alaimo was THE guy needed to pull off such a character.
I watched DS9 in my teens and the characters of Quark and Garak helped me see nuance in things. I used to believe communism was the answer (like most teens do). But after this show, I started looking into economic and political philosophies and changed my outlook a great deal.
They wasted Q FFS
Quark teaching a Vulcan about logic and having to dumb it down so she can understand it and such a flex.
So let's tally up Quark's coolness factor. He out-logicked a Vulcan, beat a Klingon with bookkeeping, was called "brave" by Chancellor Gowron, convinced the Prophets to turn Grand Nagus Zek back to his normal self, and he gets ALL the best girls.
Let's just face facts, Quark can connect dots nobody knows exists, paint a picture with it, sell it at a premium to the Federation, Klingons, AND Romulans, use the profits to bribe his way out of trouble, and use what's left to get "Garak... simple Garak" to tailor him a snazzy new suit to celebrate a job well done.
I loved the episode where Jake wanted to buy a rare baseball card for his dad, but had no money for it, because humans no longer use money. He spent the whole episode being lectured by Nog and Quark about the fact that he obviously DID need money, since he wanted to BUY something. :)
Don’t forget he ALSO was able to use a very inexpensive and simple means to extract information about the mine-field’s weakness-get the man with knowledge drunk.
Rom is a space wizard, Rom is a rogue, and Quark is a bard maxed out on charisma. Y'all won't convince me otherwise.
Tigerman1138 That's a pretty good and near fool proof method of interrogation. The subjects have no idea their being interrogated and it's an excuse to watch and laugh at people who get piss drunk.
I just realized that Quark is also a really good salesman. Here he's preventing intergalactic war, but that speech could also be selling a used car.
Personally if he do this kind of speech to sell me a used car, I would buy it. He got the money, and I got the car.
Business.
Salesmen and diplomats have a similar skillset.
One sells things.
The other sells IDEAS.
@@GuukanKitsune And both want the maximum return for the minimum investment. Usually they want to favor themselves whenever and however possible.
Interstellar war technically. Theres only one galaxy in the mix of this war.
selling used Bird of Prey
"I know the Kardashians can't be trusted."
Words to live by, Quark.
They have weapons too.
Armin Shimerman, such a brilliant actor. Quark was, for me, one of the best characters on Deep Space Nine
How do you even pick the best characters in that series. There's way too many good ones. Crazy too that some of the best are more considered secondary characters like Quark and Garak.
How do you even pick the best characters in that series. There's way too many good ones. Crazy too that some of the best are more considered secondary characters like Quark and Garak.
Don't forget the old crone who is the bane of Kira's existence
Absolutely. I'm rewatching ds9 but primarily for the quark centered episodes. He steals the scenes he's in. The dynamic between him and Odo or Dax was ST DS9 at its best
@@Kos4Evr Wallace Shawn?
Just like the Cuban missile crisis: “they have weapons, you have weapons, everyone has weapons, but right now no one has a clear advantage. Now’s the perfect time to thrash out an agreement”
Apparently you are as old as I am to remember JFK on TV in October 1962 talking about it. I wanted him to do a surprise attack on Cuba even though it is the country I and my parents were born.
@@luislaplume8261 You don't have to be born in the 60's to remember JFK.
I'm only 19 and I consider him to be the best president the United States has ever had.
@@soggybreadman4035 Because he didn't last very long...
What do you think of Eisenhower though?
@@luislaplume8261 He did. It didn't end well. Listening to CIA "advice" rarely does:D
And right after revolution _the price of acquisition of Cuba was at the all time low._ Instead of antagonizing cubans and pushing them into the open arms of the soviets. A small diplomatic favour here, a small loan to rebuild the country there. And Castro, who fanboyed for FDR to begin with, would have been a poster boy "domestic commie" so useful for propaganda.
Judging by your attitude you are coming from a family of one of the landlords, who created a fertile soil for revolution in the first place, am I right?
@@TheArklyte You are WRONG! My late father used the rent money to use to do house repairs and upgrades, and pay property taxes as well as income. We lived in a 2 story house that he bought in December 1963, and it was 40 yards away from the Jamaica Ave El. on Jamaica Ave. My late mother went to work in order to also pay the mortgage on the house that he bought from the Jamaica Savings Bank in Jamaica, Queens in NYC. You know next to nothing about basic economics which I learned in school in the 1960s Mad Men era. NYC was and is the financial Capital of America during the colonial era and up til today. Even though Philadelphia was larger in size and population in the colonial era and the early years of this republic until 1830. It has and has the most influential place in place.
This was easily one of Quark's finest moments, and the only scene in which the Ferengi way of life seemed to make *sense*. For this one, eloquent moment, we saw how the Ferengi had been able to survive all of these years, and what made their way of life livable.
***** Not to sound quarrelsome, but that's not *quite* true. The Ferengi hadn't fought in a large-scale, interstellar war, but they did fight occasionally, and they did fight each other in their early history: Nog, remarking on the fast pace of human history, points out that they needed 10,000 years just to establish the Ferengi Alliance.
What they didn't have, Quark pointed out once, was genocide or chattel slavery in their history. Neither did they irradiate their own planet with the indiscriminate use of nuclear fission. but I digress.
Nick Hentschel I was always a little disturbed by the way they treat their women as chattel though. Not only does that not really fit with that previous narrative as you put it, but also with the meritocratic parts of their outlook. I'm not sure whether that's saying something about the nearsightedness of the species or it's just the writers doing a little American jabbing.
The Bellman Excuse me, but that's changing the subject a bit. I don't recall stating any sort of "narrative" like you describe, much less calling Ferengi culture a meritocracy. You're reading far too much into what I said.
All I said, was that this scene showed how there was *some* logic in the Ferengi's point of view, and that in turn, this suggested how their seemingly warped culture had survived. I never touched on the status of women, or the other topics you mention, and frankly, the "chattel" issue isn't relevant to this scene.
Nick Hentschel
I just wanted to introduce a question. You did put forth Quark's narrative about how the Ferengi never had Chattel slavery or genocide, and their survival of the fittest outlook was to their advantage, which is why I said it's odd that the status of women in their society didn't evolve down a similar path. That's all.
The Bellman Sorry; let me back up a bit here.
First, please pardon me for sounding snappish. I've had recent problems, right here on YT, with people who hijacked conversations without permission, trying to drag me into side subjects that I didn't feel like discussing. They even got mad at me when I refused to do so, and I'm afraid it's made me defensive.
Second, I thought you were responding to my original post, not the side discussion I started with CYP. I did get involved with a disucssion of the Ferengi's history, and it included a mention of the Ferengi not engaging in what I should have called, "commercial" slavery. Even so, I was mostly correcting CYP's misquotes, with much of my own information coming from Memory Alpha (the Star Trek Wiki).
Again, I never called the Ferengi, "meritocrats," nor defended, "survival of the fittest." You're still reading things into my remarks that I didn't say. I simply pointed out that the profit-minded view had some validity here, and that is shed light on Ferengi history as a whole.
2:33 When you realize you're 100 years old, incredibly intelligent and logical but you just got your ass handed over to you ON LOGIC by a Ferengi bartender.
Business owner. Quark may tend the bar, but he also owns the bar/restaurant/casino.
@@matthewkreps3352 On a station in the middle of an area that is contested space in all but name only. He's come back from nearly full failure of his business multiple times. He's a survivor, and survivors aren't know to be stupid. His family has a tendency to be very smart too. Rom aside, his nephew Nog "beat" the Kobiashi Maru by causing the program to completely crash when he engaged the AI in a prolonged negotiations for the freedom of the crew. XD
To be fair to that Vulcan, she was approaching the logic from the wrong angle. Her logic was sound, if you failed to take into account alternative courses of action. Quark simply presented her with another perspective and another approach to resolving the conflict.
@@matthewkreps3352 Not to mention Brothel... *ahem* Holosuite.
@@angelangelis8362 hey Rom is a genius too. He was made Grand Negus after Zek retired
There are two times when it is appropriate to sue for peace.
1. When no one can win.
2. When it is painfully obvious who has won.
Quark had to teach a Vulcan about point 1- 😂
Tell that 2nd one to the Palestinians...
@BTG514 "The point of guerilla war is not to succeed, it's always been just to make the enemy bleed."
- Immortal Technique.
@@BTG514this aged well
3. When it is convenient to confuse the hell out of your enemies.
@@BTG514 Except there is no war going on there; just one-sided genocide, perpetrated by the Israelis.
This sounds like a lesson Andrew Ryan from Bioshock 1 could learn from because his management of Rapture fell apart really quickly.
Fun fact Quark's actor did the voice of Andrew Ryan in the game.
NO WAY
could you elaborate on that?
ironic isn't it
That's also very funny because Andrew Ryan is very similar in political ideology to Mr House from Fallout, who is voiced by the actor of Odo. The Stupendium references this in his Mr House rap, when he says "ask my buddy, Andrew Ryan"
Interesting fact. I just started playing the first one.
Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies.
My favorite rule of acquisition
No joke, I've played strategy games where such a thing is possible, and it definitely confuses the hell out of me at times.
Peace is good for business.
@@vsgfilmgroup war is good for business
@@SamAx57 When no appropriate rule applies, make one up.
I seen a few comments about how some of the Vulcan's remarks were emotional in nature. I remind you that at no time does the Star Trek universe ever claim that Vulcans have no emotions, it only claims they have learned to control them, but that doesn't mean they don't surface, sometimes under the mistaken guise of logic.
Or at least convince themselves that they are under control. One of the things I liked about Star Trek Enterprise, is it kind of reveals that vulcan emotionlessness is bit of a smoke and mirrors show. Under the surface most of them are utterly bubbling with emotions, with a huge amount of mental energy required to keep it under control so none of the other vulcans will know that they are struggling. But in reality, they are all struggling.
Ye, before Vulcan's embraced logic, the Vulcan probably would have just strangled Quark on the spot.
Discovery has revealed the insidious fashion in which some Vulcans channeled their hatred and violence.. .while claiming to be all about logic.
@@shayneoneill1506 I always found Tuvok from Voyager to be a good example of this. It was the first time since TOS that a Vulcan was a part of the Senior Officers and it showed that even a Vulcan can let their mask slip under adverse circumstances. Like that once episode where you hear Tuvok screaming from being tortured, then he acts like it wasn't a big deal. Absolutely chilling.
I remember hearing Spock claim (or reading him claim in a book) that Vulcans have no emotions. Keep in mind it's been years since I saw the show, so I might be misremembering.
Assuming I recall right, it was still clearly Vulcan decorum, or applying what he'd learned (that denying your emotions helps you stay logical).
On occasions when it comes up in private (like Spock with Kirk, or Tuvok in sickbay with the Doctor), the Vulcans readily admit they have emotions that run deep and possibly more intense than other races.
The thousand mile stare of the vulcan right at the end where she realizes she's been out-logic'ed by a Ferengi is priceless.
One of my favourite podcasters, Dan Carlin, once said that wars are basically the question of "How many atrocities are you willing to acquire to achieve your goal?". In that lens, Quark is 100% right: going for the maximum possible cost is ridiculous, and frankly horrifying. Peace and diplomacy is alway the best choice for either side, as it is the "cheapest"
You could even add on to the metaphor with the fact that escalating the conflict in this case not only drives up the cost of peace in terms of lives, material, and territory, but also in terms of the sheer time and the labor that goes into maintaining a conflict
@@jeffreypeters2803 Well, time is money.
@TrueFact profitable yes inevitable no
Wrong. Peace and diplomacy were not the best choice right before every rightful revolution in history.
Violence against those who make peace impossible, while perpetuating oppression, is the best choice.
It depends. Sometimes peace is the cheapest solution. But sometimes trying to keep up a peace by all means necesarry can be just as costly or even more costly then war.
And sometimes war can be the cheapest solution to a long standing conflict.
When I was young, I loved Star Trek for the space battles. As an adult, I love it for the consistently great dialogue.
I always loved Star Trek for both.
For real... an unexpected philosophy school disguised as a "bam boom" show
You know you're an adult when you watch a scene for the dazzling diplomacy.
The excessive pseudo -science dialog actually bugs me more as an adult.
I liked it for both, even as a kid
"I know the Kardashians can't be trusted"
sounds about right.
Quark and Kanye learned the Rules of Acquisition fast.
Rule #40: "She can touch your lobes but never your latinum."
Lol.
Apparently they are called Cardassians or something like that but damn does it sound like they said the infamous family.
a shame there isnt more of this...miss Quark...excellent acting
Shimmerman used to host extra rehearsals at his residence with the other Ferengi actors and Chase Masterson. All the extra work he put in paid off.
You know it's scary when Quark makes sense
Quark was always smarter and more clever than anyone gave him credit for.
That's how he knew Odo really loved him.
The Kardashians should never be trusted; this is COMMON sense.
Hey that's racist
See this right here should be turned into a political speech.
Her face at the end...
".... God damn it he's right..."
Don't you mean "Surak damn it, he's right..."?
More like: "Daaaaamn... is it Pon'Far already?"
Later, Saakona comes up to Quark: "I have come to the logical conclusion that we should have sex."
He's quite right. When everyone has a gun, no one wants to fire. There are two outcomes of continuing with aggression. They get the bigger gun and attack, or you get the bigger gun and have to use it to attack.
& the more lives lost, the less interested they are in seeing the other side fairly, the more invested they become in winning, and the less interested they are in compromise. That's what I took from his speech anyway.
@@WhompingWalrus I absolutely agree.
Sounds like the Cold War.
Nobody wants to fire until some idiot shoots. Then everyone fires.
This actually translates to a moment in an entirely different sci-fi show, Stargate SG-1. In one episode, one of the protagonists (Daniel Jackson) gets tons of advanced alien tech transferred into his brain. He proceeds to build a planetary defense system made of advanced defense satellites with said alien tech on board. However, those satellites suddenly provided the US with an unparalleled global advantage, and they swiftly started to bully other countries, because no one, not even Russia or China, could even remotely hurt the US anymore.
I've rewatched this clip multiple times and what's so brilliant about it is that the Vulcan never thought of peace as a commodity which is why Quark discussing it like one was so "confusing" it shows how culture makes such a difference.
Ferangie: Now I ask you is that logical?
Vulcan: *silence*
Ferangie: *mic drop*
Actually, I think Quark's use of logic was causing the Vulcan to enter Pon farr prematurely.
Who have thought that star trek Mickey mouse would have been the hero for so many that don't know his name.
Exactly
My only issue with this, is that a Ferengi would never drop a mic...not only does it cause a decrease in the resale value of said mic, but the resulting feedback of an audio recording instrument hitting the floor is incredibly painful on the lobes.
@@migueldelacruz4799 lol "star trek Mickey mouse"? X-D
Quark may be a corrupt toad some times, but he was also right in a lot of ways. Using the Rules of aquasition he has managed to save a Klingon house, teach a Vulcan about logic, safe the station, put Kira in her place about the Dominion occupation, AND save Sisko's marriage.
Quark was frequently the moral compass of DS9.
@@jimolinger3149 "Our people never committed genocide or slavery, who are you to judge us?" Quark to Sisko.
An opportunistic toad, besides the few times they regress him to TNG Ferengi dastardlyness so they could have a proper mini villain every once and awhile in the early seasons.
More like an ethical compass. A merchant wants a stable system with as many customers as possible, and also one that he can subvert for personal gains when he wants, especially when he can have a hand in shaping that system to benefit himself in some way.
They're just amazingly pragmatic at the end of the day. I can't really name a species more gray and practical than the Ferengi.
Like all emotions greed has its place. Used properly , all benefit. It's like fire. A good servant but a terrible master.
"greed" and "greedy" are two separate words, each with their own definition. "greed" can be an asset while "greedy" is the extreme to be avoided.
All things are useful in Moderation. Too much or two little of almost anything can have terrible consequences. It's all about balance.
Everyone wants something they don't have
a reader of Machiavelli and cultured I see
Wow, @Heregul Mithal, that is really beautiful. Well said!!
That he outsmarted a vulcan with logic shows how brilliant he truly is
Quark is the best. At first blush he comes off as another latinum hungry Ferengi. But once you get to know him better you realize he has a lot of depth. He wants latinum because having lots of it makes for a good Ferengi. That is what his whole character revolves around. He cares for his brother and his nephew and the crew of DS9, but as a good Ferengi the rules of Acquisition underpin his every thought and action. He is a Ferengi of his times and he wants to be as good a Ferengi as Sisko wants to be a good Starfleet officer.
Well he is a latinum hungry ferengi, but he's our latinum hungry ferengi. Not to mention he's a total badass.
Basically, the Rules of Acquisition are his Bible. In the Behind the Scenes, the director even said Quark was the most religious character in the series.
Quark turned from a egotistical jerk I didn’t like into a character with a huge heart who in the long run just wants to help his friends. He helped Odo get Kira and when Nog lost his leg at the planet he suddenly forgot about himself and became only interested in protecting nog. He helped get the dominion off DS9 during the occupation and is just a great guy. He’s one of my favorite characters.
It's really a very simple sleight-of-hand that explains why Quark works. All you have to do is start viewing having friends, and having power over people by making them friends, making them want to repay favours - just start viewing all of those as equivalent to material wealth.
One way to get all the latinum in the world is to have everyone want to give it to you. Quark, one of the most ardent proponents of the Laws of Acquisition, realises there is a return-on-interest in social connection. And at the end of the day - once you start doing that and start getting used to it, eventually just 'fuzzy warm feelings' can be payment themselves enough for smaller things. After all, if you're a better businessman while happy and content, then it's just another form of personal investment. All in the pursuit of latinum, which along the way, we didn't notice has been replaced for 'happiness'.
That's the fun of Star Trek, that DS9 especially was better at realising on-screen than the other series' - morality is shades of grey and several layers deep, and actions can have a completely different tone depending on how zoomed-in - or zoomed-out - your viewpoint is.
@@ProcrastinationHyperfocus And that's why I like Star Trek. Character exploration and depth and how you can hate a character at the start of the show but by end grow to love them. Too bad that New Trek decided to throw that out in favor of all flash and little to no substance.
This sounds like the beginning of a joke, “a ferengi and a Vulcan are locked up in a holding cell...”
"Whatever it costs" is a rather....emotional....statement for a Vulcan to make. Like the Ferengi with their business sense, a Vulcan should have enough logical understanding to realize the current strategy was untenable in the long run. I miss THIS Trek.
Me too. Modern Trek in basically every one of it's incarnations has been reduced to villains and heroes at best and idiots being idiots at worst. I miss Trek.
Vulcan's never claimed to have no emotions, but they have learned to control them.
@Neil Roy you misunderstand, it's not about the fact that Vulcan's have emotions it's about the Vulcan logic so what Quark is saying should have been apparent from the beginning without Quark having to explain it.
@@Jadefox32 I think those were just two logical perspectives. The Vulcan wanted peace more than anything else, so it's logical they would pay any price. Quark's logic was that even peace should have a limited price tag, or at least that you should try to acquire it at a discount.
I don't think those two views are mutually exclusive. What's logical is very dependent on what you know or perceive at the time.
Examples are plentiful: for instance, it's logical to terminate a contract with a business partner if it's not profitable, right? But then you realize that the partner is a global company that will open other opportunities in the future and suddenly, working without (immediate) profit might be the best and most logical business decision you will make in your life.
Getting back to the scene, the Vulcan lady simply didn't perceive the facts the way Quark did. That didn't make her logic wrong, just inferior. And even that could be debated (for instance, she was willing to pay any price - including listening to a Ferengi. So she did, in fact, do whatever was necessary - willingness to pay any price is not mutually exclusive with willingness to pay a low price either).
@@becausebuzzbomb6133indeed that's true.
The 3rd RoA is my personal favorite rule. It guides me when I buy for my hobby or when my parents need something from my workplace.
I love when the rules of acquisition are used outside of just business
But that's the thing. The Rules hold a similar place in Ferengi culture to something like The Art of War or The Book of Five Rings. So a warrior treats everything as War, A ferengi treats everything as Business, each applying their respective rules to every aspect of their lives.
All Ferenghi have MBA's.
War is merely a bloody continuation of business and politics.
Ferengi:
Hoo-man, _everything_ is business!
0:15
"Look, i know the Kardashians can't be trusted..."
Truer words quark, truer words...
Cardassians are from star trek, Kardashians are the idiot celeb family.
so
You guys realize its a pun right?
@Devil Dub Garak always says he can't be trusted, because nobody can be trusted, even yourself
Quark is a very unusual Ferengi. His whole family is different; his Moogie is a freethinker, his brother is a genius cinnamon-bun, his nephew is a Star Fleet officer, and Quark... he’s a people person.
According to Quark, his father was a very traditional Ferengi. He must be spinning in his grave to see how his wife, sons, and grandson turned out!
@@SuperTonyony As parents, we tend to raise our often opposite or at least different than us on purpose by them offspring. It's just how it seems to work, since who really wants to the exact same as those that came before them? Even if they are their parents. Some will, and that's all fine for them; but most usually won't. (From my observations thus far.)
But ultimately the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Some things will always stay the same. In that case, I wonder what was the same about their father that he shares with them.
Frank Bowman Yes, Rom took after his father-a poor Ferengi in training his family. Quark took after his mother with innovation and free-thinking. That is why Quark is Quark.
The 287th Rule of Acquisition: Necessity is the Mother of strange bedfellows.
His brother Rom was also a labor union leader and later became the Grand Nagus.
I love the look of the Vulcan. I can see her thoughts "did I just get a sensible logic lecture from a Ferengi?" So well done.
This reminds me of that Doctor Who speech:
"When you fire that first shot, you have no idea who's going to die. How much blood will spill until everybody does what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning; sit down and talk."
Peace can be earned the easy way or the hard way; you can sit down and talk now, or after many needless casualties.
I love that speech so much. Good reference.
Twelve's greatest moment. None of the others except(maybe) Tom Baker could've pulled that off.
@Ricardo Santos Actually WWI was the start of communism, the distorted funhouse mirror image of socialism.
the diference is that quark maque actually sense... Doctor who... is just jibijabish
..
Yah but the thing about peace is that it only works if both sides want it. WW1 taught us that war is hell but ww2 taught us that appeasement is a greater hell.
Just a friendly reminder that Vulcans aren't unemotional. Quite the opposite, they practice such control because they are _highly_ emotional and those emotions dominate them when they allow it. Here, we get to see one succumb to their pride, then regain control with the help of another.
_Now imagine if a Vulcan got _*_mad_*_ and they had no acquaintances to aid them._
And imagine if they got access to the armory and a chainsaw was in there...
Spock vs Khan, tbh
Then he would be a Romulan, no? They are basically the same species, the diffrences are philosophical and political, not biological.
don't have to.... archer experienced it first hand lmao. oh and some other enterprise crews
Ayy we got to see some in the most recent episode
The writers of Star Trek were so intelligent they could have philosophical dialogue based on how certain characters from certain species would approach it. That is so insanely hard to do I am impressed as hell every time it's pulled off
It’s also why I despise how dumbed-down modern Trek is. The writers are incapable of keeping their personal political viewpoints from bleeding into *EVERY* character. Old Trek was smart enough to have characters actually hold positions that were believable given their characterizations. There were morals to the stories, but they didn’t hit you over the head with “VIEWPOINT I LIKE GOOD. VIEWPOINT I DONT LIKE BAD.” Old Trek wasn’t afraid to show the flaws of its heroes nor afraid to show the merits of its antagonists.
@@danielbrown001 To be fair Rom straight up directly quoted Karl Marx in one episode. And they wrote Ishka to openly manipulate Zek into agreeing with her own personal politics. Yet all of these don't compare to the massive dumpster heap of trash that is new trek
All they're doing is following virtues and ethical frameworks that have been established and known for decades. Maybe the Pherengi are Machiavellian while the Vulcan are consequentialists. This then philosophically dictates how the characters should be expected to react. Throw in the odd individual character quirk, and tadaaaa. It's quite mathematical and not nearly as difficult to execute as you'd think.
I really think people should stop defaulting to an impressed state for the simple reason that they don't know what goes on behind the curtain and they don't care to attempt to understand it. You'll find it's actually a cheat code of life to be interested in how things work on a fundamental level rather that be put off by the complexity of small moving parts. This deliberate conscientiousness makes you a human commodity.
@@danielbrown001 well voyager was a mixed bag of really good and then on the other hand on the nose moralizing and painfully bad ethics and plots. Great ones like anything with 709 and the year of hell and then bad ones like tuvix, the cardassian Yahtzee doctor, and the experimental ftl flight were horrible
@@drb0mb All they WERE doing is that. They aren't doing that any longer. Having the formula doesn't make it meaningless, it's also necessary to follow the formula, and to do it well.
Who else executes this formula so well that you are so unimpressed by this?
This is but one scene that demonstrates why DS9 was always my favorite iteration of the Trek universe. So many interesting people in one place, all different in some way, with bits of wisdom and great dialogue here and there, not to mention some laughs along the way.
Quark biggest failure is that he didn't invest in war since it never gets old.
@@robertagren9360Rule of Acquisition 35: Peace is good for business
@@austinboylan5476 But his cousin owns a whole moon selling weapons. There's always another rule of counter one rule lol.
@@rushthezeppelin theres always an exception because inflexability is its own problem. the problem is knowing when to use the exception. i would say some of the more greedy faringi are examples of failing to read a situation and getting themselves into troublle.
@@austinboylan5476 Rule of Acquisition 34: War is good for business. Those Ferengi are the ultimate pragmatists.
that silence at the end is the sound of a vulcan brain impolding.
What it is is the sound of the following thought in her head: "........Son of a bitch, the Ferengi is right."
yep
it was a Vulcan sploosh
Legend has it that the Vulcan woman spontaneously entered Pon-farr and ended up with a lot of large-eared children.
LIKE THEIR PLANET
AAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
"peace is good, but how much are you willing to pay for it?"
"whatever it costs!"
"it's that kind of irresponsible spending that causes so many business ventures to fail!"
I love how he uses economic jargon to describe the cost of peace. Peace at any cost is a terrible way of doing things.
It's also a terrible way to negotiate, and also highlights to those around you that you are acting from an emotion standpoint, not a controlled logical one. If you are willing to pay anything to get what you want, then the price will be high and don't be surprised by "artificial shortage" by dragging out the sale as much as possible to ensure more can be asked over time as you become more emotional and desperate to agree to whatever terms.
That doesn't make any fucking sense.
Every Wing Commander player knows that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance!
Which is quite expensive when you think about it, all those cameras, spy networks etc.
@@cattysplat Did anyone else immediately think of Brexit upon reading this?
Daniel “Mankind was at his *ZENITH* when fighting the Kilrathi.”
"Remind me to give you a copy of the Rules. You never know when they might come in handy."
Looks like he needs to reread them first. He should SELL her the rules!
+Brandon Pack I think the RoA are given away free, and then if you want more info you pay for it. Get 'em hooked first, you see?
+Brandon Pack You give an encoded copy. You charge for the key to the code.
+Foebane72 ahh rules of aquisition #142 "give em a taste of the game, then charge stupid amounts for the dlc"
Funny thing: in Star Trek Online, you need to spend in-game money (not necessarily real-world money, though it does speed the process up) to get a copy of the Rules of Acquisition. There are two copies: a very cheap one that lists them all out plain and simple, and a more expensive one with actual voice acting.
Methinks Quark had something like this in mind. :D
I just assume he said 'give' because he's trying to get into her pants.
(sigh)
"Then I'll make it so simple that even a Vulcan can understand."
Vulcan chick: "Do you presume to lecture me on logic?"
Quark: "I don't want to, but you leave me no choice."
Could almost see Spock speaking Quark's line....
Same thing as calling that Vulcan a dumbass.
Captain Cough angrier geek?
Your post came up on my screen just as they said it!
Well, logic wasn't at fault, she simply didn't have all the data. You can have the best, most perfect computer in the world, if the input data is wrong, the output will be rubbish too.
Probably thinking "I'll send you the bill for my consultation fee."
"Then I'll make it so simple that EVEN A VULCAN can understand"
So... it looks like Ferengi (or Quark at least) consider themselves smarter than Vulcans. This scene proves that they ain't that far from the truth.
PS. In some novel Nog took the Kobayashi Maru test and the program crashed when he was about to negotiate out the survivors' return. A Ferengi was able to do something that no Vulcan or any Feddie had ever done before. And yeah, he did that simply with negotiating skills and no cheats unlike Kirk.
Nog: returning the prisoners will be as easy as that. And I'll even throw in free booze.
Program: does... not... compute...))
I need to know what novel this was.
based Nog
I wouldn't say he thinks Ferengi are smarter than Vulcans, just more economically savvy (which is basically true in comparison to every species)
Actually that was Kelvin timeline Kirk, in the Prime Timeline (when DS9) takes place Kirk beat it fairly, it was Picard who cheated.
Her look at the end is just wonderful.
"...Did I just get outwitted by a friggin' Ferengi?"
Adiraiju Never underestimate a Ferrengi when they're able to think of the current situation and variables in terms of Cost and Profit.
+Adiraiju "Rule of Aquisition #315: Beware the smart Ferengi, they understand business better than you do."
Before anyone says there's no such rule, remember the unwritten rule. "When no appropriate rule applies, make one up."
+Adiraiju Ferengi are nihilists. The Vulcans believe that morality is logical. Of course, their reasoning has always been based around reasoning what is best for their society, not what is best for them personally, so if you take that goal as a given it still works.
+SpaceClaw Heh. I forget if it was in an episode or in a novel, but I recall Quark making up a 286th Rule after a particularly bad day at the bar. "When Morn leaves, it's all over."
Oh Morn, a seeming mute on screen who in truth never shut up unless the camera was on him. lol His funeral was hilarious becuase of that dynamic.
“Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the hell out of your enemies.”
The Ferengi's 76th Rule of Acquisition
They cut the scene so as not to show the Vulcan's head blowing up.
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
🤣🤣🤣
Ka Boom
More likely that 7 year thing for Vulcans happened and she blew his mind
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom not the end-" Spock
"Logic, my dear, simply allows one to be wrong with authority."
-The Doctor
@Leo Peridot Which is why the Spock Fallacy exists.
Sex is the end.
@@jbrisby "Sex is the end." -jbrisby
@@Durwood71 that’s one of my favorite lines
War makes peace too expensive to invest in. As long as a deadlock between nations exist, peace is capable at the best point due to nations feeling they could be equally affected in a negative by war. Peace is cheap now. Take it.
hence why the usa and ussr never escalated tensions during the cold war. it was the same scenario, all out war would only end in negatives for both sides. making the eventual ability for peace talks after the fall of the ussr possible.
he is right tho, once a deadlock stalemate happens, negotiating peace is a far better solution than continuing military actions. and military action should only ever be a last ditch effort for peace when agreements cannot be achieved.
I feel that that kind of "bargain" peace itself can often be a problem though. That's not the kind of peace you want, because it does not resolve underlying problems. Sometimes, war is just a necessity of humanity. Not war as a business, but war as war. Western civilization has gotten to where it is because of occasional conflicts and wars. War is almost Darwinistic on a huge scale. One side wins, the other loses, and the winning side's ideas are propagated. then there might be a challenge from opposing ideas etc etc.
I mean, I agree, but I feel that cheap stalemate peace is not the best kind of peace. Not a longterm solution
Megadeath: "Peace sells, but who's buying?"
Ahhh... if you every watched Babylon 5, - a view point very much shared by the Shadows.
+wakcedout There are problems with what you are saying. First, the USSR and the US didn't want to avoid an all out war. History is filled with all out wars. What they wanted to avoid was mutually assured destruction. So a big element was in the Cold war was trying to have first strike ability and to develop a threat of nuclear retaliation to deter a first strike. One scenario to avoid at all costs was the possibility of suffering a first strike without the opportunity of a retaliatory strike Furthermore, one of the consequences of the USSR and the US as nuclear powers is falling into the trap where escalation could get out of control and end up in a nuclear exchange, one power doing a first strike, and the other power delivering its retaliatory strike.
However, this wasn't because of a fear of an out all war.
Furthermore, even with the dangers of escalating tensions, tensions were escalated all the time. Sputnik was an escalation. The space race was one escalation after another. Developing new weapons systems against each others were escalation. Chinese and Soviet support of North Korea and the US supporting South Korea was an escalation. Soviet support for the Vietcong and the American attempt to prop up south vietnam was an escalation. The US supporting the Mujahideen "Freedom Fighters" to boot the Soviets out of Aghanistan was an escalation. At any rates these are only a few examples. Tensions would go up, down, up down, etc.
I grew up during the golden age of cartoons and gaming and but scenes like this make me feel like I missed out.
Contact the cleaning crew, we got a Vulcan who melted after being out-logiced by a Ferengi!
PREACH!!!!!!
I hadn't realized that her time of Pon Farr had occurred.
I love DS9 for many reasons, but I think my favorite is that they took the time to just explore and deepen the universe they had. The Ferengi were introduced as a cheap potshot at capitalism - and, let's face it, a not-so-subtle hint of Gene Roddenberry's attitudes towards Jews. But in DS9, we got Ferengi with different traits and values (to say nothing of Quark's cousin), we got to see their society grow and change with the times, we got to see them forming their own connections with species in the Gamma Quadrant and explore it in their own way, and we got speeches like this and the root beer conversation with Garak, which gave us the insight that their view of morality isn't fundamentally worse than anyone else's. Ironically, they became an example of self-improvement and cultural tolerance, the very things the Federation was supposed to be about. God, I miss this show.
A great sentiment but I have to be That Guy, I'm afraid: I think you mean the Gamma Quadrant. :p
@@codyw1 Ah, yes. I'll fix it. Thank you.
What a diffence with STD garbadge...
DS9 does an excellent job in portraying Ferengis as a species, like TNG did with Klingons.
I always found it so intriguing when star trek was able to base alien cultures around an entirely different morality system, and still have the audience grow to understand them and love them- Vulcans with Logic, Klingons with Honor, Ferengi with Business
Damn. How bad does the world have to be when Quark sounds like a better world leader than the actual world leaders?
Honestly his point would work in the real world rather well.
@@dancingwholeness - In a way it already has. Look up the MAD theory.
If you think Quark would be better than any world leader right now, you are high on your own farts
@@Kyosukedono *well actually
...*
Hyperbole aside though, i kind of agree with that statement. I'm not saying he would be better than all world leaders or even that he would make for a great leader. But currently the bar for being a better leader than some world leaders is at an historic low.
It's funny that there's a real world parallel he is very comparable to. Honestly he would have very similar selfish policies. But contrary to his real world equivalent, he knows the value having a good - ish reputation and diplomacy. Ow and he's also literate and not senile.
@@Kyosukedono You dare say this in 2019? Trump? Putin? Kim Jong Un? The CCP? Ferengi may worship greed, but all but the most deranged and corrupt have some sense of restraint and honor.
The Ferengi Rules Of Acquisition are like a non-martial version of Sun Tzu’s Art Of War.
The vulcan Maquis' name is Sakonna.
I think Quark was, in the long run, a character who inspired my curiosity in studying economics - and also my enthusiasm when becoming a wine and spirits salesman 😄 I loved DS9 as a kid, that show realy was something special 😊
You better buy yourself some Latenum to display
Do they now call you the Synthehol King?
I'll take one crate of Aldebaran whiskey and another of Saurian brandy please.
Do you also sell Root Beer?
We need Quark to give China, Russia, and the US a lecture like this.
@@bruhiusmaximus5386 yes it is. Many people however either have forgotten, missed, or ignore this fact.
they already know that, which is why they all cheat, Peace is a time of cheat between wars, Sometimes we wage war other times we wage peace.
And now the UK because you know, Brexit 🤷♂️
You’re assuming they want peace.
I’m willing to bet that the major world powers wouldn’t mind a few million of the populace gone from their respective countries for the chance of economic superiority or advantage over the others.
This speech is good for acquiring peace; not for business.
How ironic it came from a Ferengi.
@@jt4369 It works when the motivated parties seek to acquire peace.
If the motivated party seeks control, then the equation changes.
It seems that this Vulcan isn't keeping up with the Kardashians.
No ferengi can because to keep up with the Kardashians you end up leaving stuff behind like the wife and kids. Just ask Bruce/Kaitlyn Jenner
rules of acquisition say - after you shake hands with Kardashians, don't forget to count your fingers
No logical person, even a Vulcan, would want to keep up.
That's clever. Kardashians/ Cardassians.
@@cobra8888 Vulcans are a logical race...
Man I love that Ferengi. Couldn't miss a episode with Quark in it. Oh and Odo. Put those two together, you get a fun and interesting episode
Absolutely!
I have to agree. Without those two, you have these overly high minded and lofty debates, or some dire Sci-Fi circumstance, with the Ferengi, the storyline suddenly becomes relevant to the petty and greedy society we are all familiar with.