Is Arcane a dystopia? What even counts as "dystopian fiction"?
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- Опубликовано: 5 июл 2024
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I feel like dystopia has somehow become more of an "aesthetic" than a literary device/trope in recent-ish years. People see a gritty, sci-fi, futuristic setting and go "oooh dystopia!" whether it actually applies or not. They see any degree of suffering and say "yup, not a utopia, so it MUST be a dystopia". That distinction of "there's no way out" is huge and often glossed over, in my opinion.
Also, there's the self-reflective element. One example of where that is more lacking is in Warhammer 40k. It would be an awful place to live, but that doesn't make it a dystopia.
tbh i think the most important part of a dystopia is the idea of being a corruption of utopia
Like taking a utopian ideal and seeing that accomplishing that has read to some quite horrendous means
tru. audiences often mistake other genres, themes, settings as dystopian. The primary issue is the concept of the 'death of author' that dismisses literary tradition and the intentons of the author(including the intentions of fanfic/AUs) for the sake of the consumer.
Dystopias have gone from being an absolutist, inescapable prison of the 20th century into the far more realistic form of today - a world with deep troubles that have solutions, but nobody cares enough to break from their everyday cycle to actually do anything about it. That's what makes the Hunger Games so refreshing imo, it manages to combine the best elements of both (through its class society and flawed revolution)
Dystopian… You keep using that word, but I do not think it means what you think it means…
So glad Tim is doing a deep dive on this!
I actually ran into trouble with this recently, where I used the word 'dystopia' when I meant 'authoritarian'. The conversation went in circles for a bit but thankfully ended positively.
Part of me has always considered dystopia to kinda mean “the darkest timeline for a civilization”, and tragedy to mean “watching the darkest timeline for an entity (character/community/insert your choice here) happen”. If that makes sense
Long have I waited for this moment, Tim finally talking about Arcane
Two videos about it in the same day!
Hello, I'm the guy who asked you to make an Arcane video in the QnA and I gotta say thank you, I'm really enjoying it!
Tim talking about League of Legends is not the timeline I expected to be living in but I'm here for it nonetheless
My favourite youtuber mixed with one of my favourite
games. A dream come true!
When LoL did their Lore rebuild, one of the things they did right was spend money on good authors to flesh out their new characters/environments.
@Jar Jar Binks sorry what xD
@Jar Jar Binks ok
I think Piltover/Zaun is more a class struggle idea and the generational conflict it creates
4:15 Actully within the cannon lore of League, there was a big event called Rune Wars which was pretty much a nuclear hollocaust. Heimerdinger even refers to that in the show, which is why he is soo careful about any big step in technological advance. In the world of league I would argue that Demacia and Noxus are closer to "classic" dystopias than Piltover and Zaun
Agree, especially Demacia
Fundamental rule of Runeterra is that every single place sucks for one reason or another.
I thought Demacia was the one nice place on Runeterra?
@@dedf15 Oh ho ho XD no.... it's very pretty but not all that nice. If you are a mage or in any way not human you just aren't welcome there. You should read the Lux comics.
@@lauravergo5315
#SylasDidNothingWrong
Unpopular opinion: If they didn’t make a second season, the story still wouldn’t be incomplete. I want a second season because I loved the characters and the world and the art, but my poetic impulses make me almost wish that they just leave it like that.
Related: the first season was exceptionally good. There is a concern that they aren't able to bottle lightning twice. If they don't make a second season, the first will always stand as near perfect. But you only have to look at Game of Thrones to see how something so well regarded ruined its own reputation.
for me I think a dystopia would be an extreme/extrapolated version society in a bad way, and arcane is just to close to reality for me to consider it a dystopia, not that I don't think there have been some dystopias irl, I just don't think we are quite there yet
Doesn't a Dystopia also have to have *something* to do with a Utopia? Like 1990 NYC could be viewed as a dystopia because it was BOTH a beacon of fantabulous wealth and a promise of upward mobility and also a cesspool of poverty and crushed dreams.
Same with LA. Gilded streets of Hollywood attracting hopeful youths who fall into debt and isolation, tall towers and devastated slums.
Whereas Cleveland cannot be a dystopia. No one expected good things to happen in Cleveland.
2:01
The arch of Jinx is brilliant with this ending because her descent began with the exact same thing happening - killing her closest friends trying to help just as they were about to escape. But, this time it is pure, intentional, wrath - showing us the determined development of a once innocent chaos into a refined chaos.
Like hextech
When you asked what you should talk about this year, I said Arcane. I feel so heard.
Funnily enough there is a song called "dynasties and dystopia" in the show (btw in one of the most remarkable scenes) which reflects this issue a little bit in its lyrics.
the best song of all time
Yeah, "Dynasties and Dystopia" is a bop. I also like "Miafit Things" as well.
WHAT A GOOD PUPPER
...oh and awesome video, Tim! Congratulations on your engagement again!
I actually argue that Zaun does count, even under your requirement that change cannot happen from within, because the change you use as an example *wasn't going to happen.* The deal was dead in the water from the start, it wasn't going to go through. And the reason why? Because when one of the conditions Silco gave was "blanket amnesty", Jayce's response was "sure, except this one person we can use as a scapegoat/person Piltover can punish to feel better about itself and this whole deal". Piltover, right to the end, needed to *hurt* someone before they'd accept giving Zaun it's freedom. And when Piltover made the vote, it wasn't for the *right* reasons. Things would have deteriorated eventually anyway.
It just happened immediately, because said person was Jinx, Silco's adopted daughter, an unstable maniac and Zaun's premier weapon maker. So they just skip straight to the war.
tl;dr It was too little, too late, conflict was inevitable, Jinx just kickstarted it early.
I mean Jinx killed alot of people. It was either her or Silco and jayce chose Jinx because Silco needed to lead the nation.
Even moral progress is rarely accepted for the right reasons.
@@Desean101101 Isn't it odd that They get to demand a pound of flesh from Jinx killing the People who often kill Zaunites. Like on the bridge from the prologue. Some groups just get to have their pound of flesh, and other just have to take the L?
@@I.Simmonds Fairness aside, removing a chaotic genius weapon-maker/user with severe delusional paranoia from the equation seems necessary for peace.
@@iruns1246 again mistaking peace with quiet. There is no peace under exploitation, and political independence doesn't stop the exploitation and violence within Zaun, especially when handing the place over to a local violent exploiter.
I dont think i see dystopia as just a literary term since it's supposed to be an antonym to utopia. Which is a philosophical term or analogy more than it is a literary device.
Agree. I learned decades ago that dystopia is actually the opposite of utopia. A philosophical term. Utopia = functional society (in the future, but everytime meant as a projection or reflection of the present); dystopia = dysfunctional society
I agree, but I think his arguments still work despite this.
@@mullworm I'd say utopia means more "a perfect society", not just functional. We have some examples of functional societies in the real world, but I wouldn't say any of them are utopias. In that line of thought, a dystopia would be "an utterly broken society", not just a dysfunctional or flawed society with nuances and hopes of change. That's why I agree with his arguments about how people've been using the term dystopia (and utopia for that matter) for things that aren't exactly it. These terms are meant to describe extremes.
@@cinthiagoch yes, the question is also, what is the meaning of „functional“ or „perfect“. Is it communism? Or something like Gene Roddenberry described in its Star Trek universe?
@@mullworm I think "perferct" is whatever the author says it is for their specific work, regardless it's a utopia or a dystopia. That's why it's complicated to apply it to real societies, the concept of perfect varies from culture to culture, from individual to individual, it has never been set in stone and never will. It is a too lengthy conversation to have on the youtube comments section. '^^ "Functional" would be easier to discuss and apply to the real world, but it also has too many variables to be discussed in such a humble space.
Isn’t the council’s vote to let Zaun be independent based on human sacrifice? Silco has to turn over Jynx.
And even then, independence doesn’t guarantee Piltover won’t just economically keep Zaun just the same cruddy place it is.
Turning over a criminal is not human sacrifice. We all love Jinx and want the best for her, but she has serious issues and she's fucking dangerous. She's killed dozens of people already and I highly doubt there is anyone within reach that could give her the therapy she needs.
But aside from that, the council voted to give independence because Jayce couldn't deal with the human loss of a war with Silco. And Silco is not very good at helping the undercity, so even without Piltover an independent Zaun probably wouldn't have got much better with Silco in charge.
Very cool discussion! Now i want a dystopia with wizards
I'm sure there's some out there. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if I read or watched one without noticing since I'm not very good at recognizing a dystopia when I see one. My brain just concludes that it's dark and moves on...
I guess if you stretch it some the light novel series "So I'm a Spider, so What?" might qualify, though it doesn't seem like it at first. In it's case it's not so much the governments of the various countries themselves that are the problem so much as it is the very world itself. There's not a lot I can say on that that doesn't spoil things, but essentially everything is set up to cause conflict, suffering, and death. It does have wizards in it, but most of the focus is on the titular spider. It seems like a normal fantasy at first, but it does not stay that way...
Id recommend Red Queen by Victoria Aveyard. Its like a YA fantasy dystopia. Its really good though. Basically in this world there are Reds (people with no magic) and Silvers (people with magic), the world building is really good, but be warned there is like 3 love interests. It totally plays around with those troupes and cliches though. It's got more computery (for lack of a better term) technology while also having the whole monarchy fantasy aspect.
maybe a dystopia is any story in which the portrayal structure or organization of society (or the world) in a negative light is used to provide a critique of the world. This would mean that arcane and the hunger games would be dystopias and game of thrones would not which seems right to me. Arcane to me seems like a dystopia and I get why you said it isn't. I think that the structures of power in these stories seldom change because that would undermine the critique that the story is trying to make, but I don't think that shifting power or the betterment from within automatically disqualifies a story from being a dystopia. But it is really hard to craft a definition for these things so who really knows
I've just got STRUCK by the realization that you have a second channel! So much stuff to watch now!
in terms of literary troupes, yes the struggle of the two cities of zaun and piltover is a cautionary tale. But at the same time, tech and magic aside, the means of which it actually is dystopic (extreme poverty leading to drug use and crime, corrupt police force, politics prioritizing capital over caring for the citizens, etc.) all currently exist in this world and in our societies
It's my birthday, and two hello future me videos in one day is one of the best presents I could have asked for!!
I still think Piltover and Zaun are dystopic, even by the definition you set out here.
Uh, spoilers below, for those who decided to watch this video (which is good, in spite of the criticisms I'm about to put below) without finishing the series first lol
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Piltover did *not* have the ability to look inside of itself and reform; it took a threat of revolution in order to actually do that. And even then, the power differential between Piltover and Zaun meant that the only way peace could have been brokered was if Piltover thought that fighting against the revolution would be too costly, like how Jayce felt the human cost on Zaun's end of things would be too great to make the fight worthwhile for either nation.
And even then, peace wouldn't have been possible; like other commenters pointed out, Piltover still wanted its pound of flesh (which is understandable, to an extent), and demanded Jinx in exchange for Zaun's freedom. Because, in spite of how fucked up he is, Silco still loved his daughter, he wouldn't have actually been able to abide by this deal. It's a complicated issue, but ultimately, the fact remains that this situation couldn't have actually been peacefully resolved.
Still love your work, and especially the main video you did on this topic, but I have to disagree with you on this ultimately very small point
Two months late, but I'd like to add that I think there's a lot of narrative ambiguity on whether or not giving Zaun independence is actually a good thing. On one hand, the poor people were given the right to self-govern...except not really, they were going to hand control over to Silco, a brutal warlord who was making life for a lot of people there worse than it ever was. In that way, you can see it as Piltover just washing their hands of the whole affair because actually fixing the problems between them & Zaun would be too hard for them so it's better to just write it off as someone else's problem.
I don't think dystopias are about _"we live in a terrible world and there's no way out of it unless we have radical revolution,"_ but about the *_relationship_* between government and the people, between upper class and lower class, between the haves and the have nots, and how that creates tragedies within that society. That's Arcane. It's just a more nuanced and less nihilistic type of dystopia that doesn't make the genre's staple trope of "oppressor vs oppressed" a super black and white moral issue where the oppressors are definitely evil and the oppressed definitely good, making the solution (or lack thereof) less straightforward.
I think there's this misconception that tyrannical states only come about through ideological or corporate overreach, but they can also come about like in Arcane; as a victim of its own progress and negligence, where the disparity in wealth and culture became too great and order had to be maintained through more and more strict measures, leading to resentment, and then inevitably collapse.
I see what you’re saying, I still think that Piltover/Zon doesn’t count. There is technically oppressors and oppressed, but the systems of oppression aren’t in place, except for having a different currency it seems. The Enforcers have almost no presence in the undercity, and that is after they decided to make them reminiscent of the Special Unit from Jin Roh and the Kerberos saga. At least the enforcers with goggles definitely look Special Unit-esque
the thing is though I feel like it seems pretty reductive to say any story that touches on inequality or oppression in society automatically makes that society a dystopia. I do kinda feel like if you're playing that fast and loose with the term then basically all stories are dystopias. Most human societies are deeply flawed and have some degree of haves and have nots so any fictional story if they are going to flesh out the state of society and culture of the world then if they want something that feels realistic they're probably going to toss in some social and economic ills. Season 1 of Legend of Korra explores the relationship between benders and non-benders, even though it could have done more imo it still did it, does that inequality and it's presence in the narrative automatically make republic city a dystopia? Things aren't great in Republic City, especially in season 1, but I'd hardly call it a dystopia.
I had a similar feeling about this question but I wasn't really able to articulate the reasons. Thanks for putting it into words so eloquently.
Sooooo excited for this
I loved this definition you gave..."a dystopia is incapable of change from within..." this perfectly describes how they are used in stories, where a person or a group of people, unhappy that their world is a dystopia, either escape, or overthrow the current government/controlling institution.
This thought occurred to me that a EUtopia is by inverse incapable of change by outside forces, and that is why they often are depicted as being inside a bubble or force field or fence or something that no one can cross. And it often takes a main character breaking inside that either causes the eutopia to break down naturally, due to the introduction of narrative issues to characters who previously had "perfect" lives, or willingly shattering the bubble because the cost of maintaining the "perfect" society is just too high.
I mean... I'm cool with calling Arcane a dystopia specifically because we're increasingly living in a dystopia IRL, and the two are... pretty well similar, with their underclass that seem to be on the verge of some degree of violent revolution and so on.
Nice video! Please talk more about the politics and philosophy of Arcane!
I think what differentiates arcane from most dystopias is the dominant personal aspect of the problems. There is not an incomprehensible system that is ruining everyone's lives. At least it is not the focus. Most of the problems stem from humans and hence can be resolved by humans.
I never thought of the series as Dystopian it makes me think of Dickenses novels as I think if this is a dystopia all of his are too.
Please i would love to see you make a “psychology of jinx/powder” video. your azula and zuko psychology videos were amazing 🥺🥺
This question reminds me of the fact that the Spanish audiobooks of the way of kings and words of radiance are tagged as dystopias.
I agree. And thank you for giving voice to exactly my thoughts on the matter.
The reason i dont think Arcane is a "dystopia" is that it's too realistic. In Hunger Games, the have children kill each other for sport. Thatis so unrealistic. The have crazy things happening in the future. But in Arcane, it's realistic. Rich region hoarding resources, poor side massively disenfranchised, on the verge of collapse, or revolution, and looking for concensions, including independence, from richer side. Rich side has good military, poor side has guerilla warfare and terrorism as its weapons.
Hell, that's basically the story of Irish Independence in 1913-1921 right there (and even The Troubles in the 1960s-80s).
Whether something is a dystopia or not is best left for the people who live there to decide. From what they've shown from the characters of Zaun, they do give a sense of living in a dystopia. The 11 original songs made specially for Arcane give more insights into the characters' minds. Take for example the 2 songs - Misfit Toys by Pusha T & Mako (Firelights intro viedo), and Dynasties and Dystopia by Bren Joy, Denzel Curry & Gizzle (Ekko & Jinx Bridge scene) - if you look at the lyrics, it does provide us a glimpse into these Zaunites' thoughts of being forced to survive in a dystopia.
Fair point about the dystopia label not fitting onto Piltover/Zaun. I got to admit that I thought of it as a dystopia because of its dystopian elements rather than seeing it as a unchangable situation for the city.
I see you've got 36 Streets! any upcoming review? I really liked his Neon Leviathan
Willow is so cute and just so excited to be on camera. What a good pupper. ^-^
While the discussion on dystopia has been interesting, the other video heatwrenching, I'd love some of your usual style videos on world building and writing techniques for this incredible series
but the vote for zaun getting independence wasn't rooted in care, it was rooted in corrpution, so i don't see it as "reform from within" but voting for their own good and not the good of the people, it would have put zaun into the hands of the Mafia
»in the pursuit of great we failed to do good« said Viktor to Jayce. Which reminds Jayce of his original aim to do good (for all, including the zaunites!) by inventing a method to use magic ("arcane") with technology even without having rune mage knowledge. I think this was the reason why he was shocked after killing a child with this technology.
@@mullworm yeah, but the deal he made for the independence of zaun was made with basically the mafia boss, and we have seen in the series what they have done and are willing todo to accumulated their power and grip on the population of zaun, i don't belive the deal would have increased the living conditions of zaun and potentially even worsen them, cause the independence would have given the mafia basically free reign todo as they wish
@@sylvie5447 hmm, I don't think so. "the boy doesn't even haggle“ as Silco recognized. And this treaty of independence would include the right to trade. Jayce only wanted to shutdown the production of shimmer and the extradition of Jinx.
By the way, every figure without mental issued in Arcane wanted to do good not only for him/herself but for all people. Including Silco. But everyone in its own view/perspective.
@@mullworm well i mean every "bad" person irl also thought they are doing something good, so "thinking you are doing something good" and "doing good" are 2 different things and its easy saying you are doing good, tbh stuff like this are things one can talk about for days and not get to a conclusion hahaha
Arcane is a dystopia insofar as it emulates real life, and the world we live in is rather disastrous. I'd class it more like a funky fantasy take on what the cyberpunk genre normally deals with, that is to say class conflict.
Tbh it's not even that exaggerated, the magic is just set dressing. The division in wealth is honestly more dramatic in the real world than what's depicted in Arcane. Poverty has health effects, and is caused by willful negligence from those at the top that stand to directly benefit from the current state of affairs.
I agree 100%, Tim, and it's a sentiment I've also struggled to define in recent fiction. Simply describing injustice, even if it's an exaggerated version of what is experienced in the real world, does not make a work dystopian... regardless of the setting. The guiding philosophy I use when engaging with stories like these is that for a work to be considered a dystopia (by my personal definition) there needs to be both a clear understanding that there is *NO* going back to a prior status quo *as well* as evidence of unreasonable oppression/repression.
For example, with hunger games: there is no going back to a state of the world before the apocalyptic cataclysm that destroyed the continents, plus there is brutal oppression at the hands of the Capitol. Same with 1984: there is no returning to the parliamentary government of pre-"big brother" Britain. [Not without a complete rejection of the system, i.e. - revolution]. And, the Giver: the citizens may ostensibly live in a utopia, but that is at the expense of knowledge, freedoms and rights they don't even know they're being denied; [repression].
With all this in mind, while Arcane may be a poignant critique of current socio-economic, political, and class divisions.. it is not set at a point where those issues could not be reversed or remedied with the political tools currently at their disposal. Ironically, I think giving zaun independence at this stage in either city's development would have set the stage for a legitimate dystopia. The underclass would have been left forgotten to suffer under the heel of a criminal oligarchy and Piltover would just permanently close the gates and use hextech to repress any attempt at upward mobility between the classes. Hextech could possibly even be used to quell dissenting opinion or political opposition within the walls themselves. It would become a tool of state violence.. clearing the path for a "Giver" or "Brave New World"-like dystopia in Piltover and "Blade Runner" in Zaun.
Ooh Tim, check out the Arcane videos made by Schnee. He would argue that the “reform” that Piltover supposedly made at the end would not last.
Its a dynasty and dystopia
i know i basically only comment about your pets but i swear i actually like your videos
*Dystopia* describes a society that functions very well and _most people suffer needlessly_ while *utopia* describes a society that functions very well and _almost no one suffers needlessly._
It said don't click in the other video. I did, and I was satisfied. I want a refund.
I think what's missing from this calculation is that this is the end of a dystopia. There is/was a revolution in the show. Mind it's a 1-girl revolution, but she causes enough havoc that Piltover is essentially left with no choice but to allow Zaun to declare independence. This is the end-phase of a 300 year divide between the working class and the upper class. Which, if you pay attention is literally just the mining-working class and the building/inventing- working class, with some top tier business men running the city. Even the common folk of Piltover are struggling to get by.
But, like... there was an uprising a generation ago, and that uprising left the miner-side of the city with a bad reputation: these people are violent criminals - when all they wanted was workers' rights... which means they'd probably been trying to unionize and gain workers' rights for a while and had been ignored and neglected. Piltover had turned their back on Zaun for generations, and it wasn't until things start blowing up and they get not 1 but 2 fresh new council members AND a young cop who essentially gets woken up to reality and is too stupid/nieve/untainted by the system for *any* change to happen. And even then they waited too long... it was too late... by the time they woke up and demanded change the revolution was already at their door, knocking at their window with a big, glowing bomb... It *is* a warning - a warning not to let our functioning society become complacent or think that "oh, we took care of that years ago" because by the time someone desperate brings it to your attention you already have a revolution on your hands.
So, this is like The Hunger Games if we started book 1 in the middle of book 3 - we get some back story, and then we see a handful of Capitalists change sides (high ranking and otherwise) go "no this is wrong". Would that make The Hunger Games not a dystopia? Or would that make it late-game or even post-dystopia?
One person, by definition, is not a revolution. Not the way you think it is. Most "revolutions" throughout history are better described as coup d'etats, where one group with power replaces another group with power. And Jinx causing some terrorist attacks is nowhere near enough to make Piltover "left with no choice but to allow Zaun to declare independence". The ONLY reason Jayce went to Silco and then the council with that offer is because he killed a kid whilst fighting with Vi. If he had more drive, if he was actually committed to ending Piltover's problems then he would have kept going and Silco would've lost. And considering you couldn't even get the in show fact that the city is 200 years old right, I highly doubt your reliability on things which are left unexplained in the show.
I think the main idea with dystopia, is that the society of the world found out a solution to their problems, creating a new way of life which they think that it's the best and doesn't need change, but it's actually the opposite and has made things worse than they were.
I would say it just doesnt feel hopeless despite how bad it is
For me it felt more like an political drama, like GOT, then an dystopia. Yes, shit was fucked up, but even silco did some good for the society. Yes, there were more dug addicts, but it was also economically booming!
We humbly request that, from now on, Willow be featured in every video
PUPPER!!!!!!!!!!!
Very good argumentation. The only point where I'd disagree is that we literally got the the Nuke refference in Arcane. Replace the magic crystal with Uranium (stayable crystal may be Plutonium) and you got the entire irl debate like; Is it save for public use? It can change the world for the better if used wisely but can unleash worldending destruction if it got in the wrong hands.
THE BABY!!!!!
Came for the subject, stayed for the dog.
Haven't scholars argued that 1984 ends with an unclear hope as the supplementary materials describing the society are written from a point in the future and are not in Newspeak.
So Arcane, will u talk about the Runeterra world building sometimes?
Also, "Dystopian Fiction" is entirely a marketing term. Dystopia is a made up word literally meaning "bad place" in Greek, and according to a lot of prescriptive definitions a dystopia is simply a made up place that suffers a great injustice and is often under a dictatorship - but a dictatorship is not necessary to have a dystopia. Dictators must be overthrown, dystopian councils must be swayed. You're getting dystopias and dystopian dictatorships conflated.
Wow... this came off way more bluntly that I expected. I honestly meant to have a more conversational tone.
Aww, love Willow! What breed/mix is she? 💖🐶💖
I always thought about terms "Utopia" and "Dystopia" more like a tools in a toolbox of a writer, where both of them don't represent reality, rather than fantasy about what is good and bad about our current foreseeable future. But within a fantasy genre it is much harder - because fantasy builds on itself and inspirations of real world, rather then a real world itself - where dystopia could say "this is what can happen to us" fantasy always says "this is what happens to them" and this element of disassociation with world on the other side is the defining characteristic of fantasy genre. In my opinion, while those terms define utopian and dystopian societies, in their original meanings just "Good place" and "Bad place", as far as I can understand them, the general use of those terms, shifted from "place" to "our future", where I can be sure, that is the difference in understanding of the term comes from.
Also, confession: I'm sorry, I didn't listened to video I came from yet, It is pretty possible that you have addressed the literal meaning of the term, and in case of this, I sincerely apologise.
Update: I did watched it through now and while you didn't addressed the literal term, you did something so much better by addressing the meaning behind the genre. Thank you
Whats the dominoes in the background for?
5:19 I think TVTropes calls those crapsack worlds. They're settings that aren't dystopias but still suck.
Willow is very fantastic please tell her I love her 🥺
by that deafintion dystopians sounds like our world right now...
Perhaps it can be thought of by first defining -topian. Utopian could be uniform or "of one type" (see unicycle). Dystopian is in some form negative, dysfunctional or dissonant. I don't know, but this method relies on a root.
I always considered a dystopia to be a society that is bad to everyone in it. With utopia being the opposite. And as others have pointed out dystopia is not just a literary term and can be applied to the real world. And it should be , it's a warning bell to be rang in due time (which may or may not be already now).
This still is a rather muddy definition. Because what is being "good" or "bad" to everyone, who decides that ? What margin of error is there on that "everyone" label ?
Still I thing we should be eager to pull the trigger on calling a place a dystopia. As to offset some of the willful ignorance that anyone living in a dystopia would have, that would prevent him from labeling his place as a dystopia.
Dystopia's use as a way to describe countries like North Korea is fundamental to the word, going back over 150 years at this point. On the other hand, dystopian fiction describes dystopian societies, and we can certainly extrapolate "fictional dystopian society" to get "real dystopian society". Either way, North Korea fits.
Finally an arcane video
Honestly, I’d call Arcane a dystopia. May not be our world’s dystopia, but it is a dystopia that just happened to be in a fantasy world.
a dystopia doesnt have to be completely static, i would argue that it was a dystopia until the last 5mins of the series, and probably plunges right back into that after jynx does the boom boom, so i would say it is. its just a better more nuanced example of that type of situation
Like a dystopia living next door to a utopia... Is what I did say before watching, now I'm leaning more towards "like a chaos v order thing?", then remembered the alliance of peace between other major Zaun factions and "oh damn, the DO have more in common than I thought"!
I think it's almost dystopic and we're almost their. Jinx really set them up for it.
It's a dystopia the second people can't choose their own government, doesn't matter if the government has a change of heart
XMen: Days of Future Past & S.H.I.E.L.D. Season 5 & others. The Children of Hurin... Finally, The Book of Eli.
the confucion about dystopia is a perfect example of the issues of the 'death of the author' concept. (im not saying it doesnt exist)
the background rain noise makes me need to urinate
Aw look at da puppers
The vote for peace wouldn't have actually amounted to anything because Silco wouldn't have given up Jinx and they would at least need a lot more negotiations before peace is achieved.
Wait, people think that it needs to be science fiction... Does that mean they don't consider Mad Max a dystopia?
Ima say no. The world of runeterra is basically just a fantasy world
GENRE IS COMPLICATED!
I dunno how positively we should view the Council's decision. I'm reminded of decolonisation. We can all agree: colonialism bad. But the dominant power choosing to just up sticks and leave doesn't by any means fix the socioeconomic issues at play. In Mandatory Palestine, the British dropping their mandate like a hot potato actually led to a spike in violence that had previously been tempered by their colonial occupation.
If Piltover decides to allow independence, there are still so many issues below. Piltover still controls all the trade and incoming resources, much as Europe still has massive economic power over Africa. Sure, the continent was decolonised, but the standard of living has increased at an absolute crawl
Sometimes you have to choose between bad and worse. Staying was also an bad idea. And if you go to the kids example: Sometimes you have to allow them to make the mistakes themselves
Decolonized in the traditional sense, but we're in the neocolonialist stage. It does sound like you don't believe Zaun should ever have been granted independence, and they should just get used to living as second class citizens? I'm not saying you DO believe that, just that the way your comment was written, implies it.
To me a a dystopia has always meant a society that appears to be a utopia on the surface and claims to be one, but when you look deeper is totally jacked up. So a society that is just objectively crappy or has real problems is struggling with would not be a dystopia.
So that's my very subject view on it haha
I'm all for other arguments as to why Arcane isn't a dystopia, but the whole reason Zaun is a Dystopia is because Piltover has made it clear they don't know how to deal with them. The only reason it becomes as bad as it does is because of the condions piltover created, and instead of fixing it, they wash their hands of it and let Zaun sort itself out.
OMG this is just FILLED with spoilers
im only halfway through the series ill be back, a warning would of been nice
I thought Tim had a cat, does he still have a cat?
I guess technicaly distopia doesn't need to be set in the future, but it's hard to say "this is where our society is heading" when there are fireballs involved.
Totally agree. Not a dystopia... that being said, season 2 could be! After Jinx blows everyone up, they could easily fall into a dystopian world. (Though, I don't think that is the way they will go... but maybe)
Personally it's also the fact that Piltover & Zaun are part of a bigger world (Runeterra). I just can't call Arcane dystopian and ignore the other regions. If Zaun was a TRUE dystopian society people would leave to reach other nations like Ionia or maybe ask Noxus to "liberate" them. If I think dystopia, I think there are no alternatives (except revolution/collapse).
I feel it's a bit misleading to view the final scene as "reform".
The council is voting on a peace settlement brokered by the leader of a state they didn't recognise a day prior. That's suing for peace, after a successful revolution. That's not reform.
I still don't feel like Arcane really presents a dystopia, it just shows us the equivalent of a late rennaissance/early industrial revolution city that has better technology. Of course there is inequality and discontent it takes most of its real world aesthetic inspirations from the era that gave us 1848.
I feel like dystopias have to be rooted in human earth history at some point, sure there can be sci-fi and the like but like human history should be the same if you go far enough back to our own
👍👍
With how long the idea of dystopian fiction has been around, you'd think we'd have been able to come up with a solid definition for what does and doesn't count 🤔
I'd argue Arcane is a distopia, and has a warning. Specifically the joined society of Piltover and the Lanes are a warning about what happens when you don't make social change when it's needed. The weren't capable of making peace, because peace was only ever an option when the rocket was already in flight. Piltover waited until the under city's problems were their problem, and even then not until after a failed revolution.
Arcane is a tragedy where every bit of suffering is explained to every character ahead of time, and no one ever stops it. The twin city, as just another character is no different.
0:18 Jesse?
So does this mean Alitta Battle Angel doesn't qualify as dystopia?
Tho would you call piltover a utopia?
I think we can redifine words including dystopia and that yes, the real world can described (careful) dystopia. Like dictatorships that could only be falling apart or overthrown, are not dystopia?
Words meaning can and does change and its fair to (careful) aply the real world.
Also why cant dytopia reform if the cost is high, also revolutions can be not dissimilar from reforms, just a party change that changes things, can be a revolution too.
I would say there isnt a fixed term what it has to mean if that meaning can just be dystopian elements.
But if we go by what your saying, what isn't a dystopia? What's the point of a word if it encapsulates everything? If these terms are going to be useful, they need to include and exclude certain things. If any flawed society is a dystopia in fiction, then that term is completely and utterly worthless.
@@lordofdarkness4204 Dystopian is used for more than described and means often dire opressive totaliterian regime with little hope.
Its not useless it just means more focus has put on context how simeone defines it rather than just the definition of the genre. If enough people use dystopian different in language, it has that meaning too.
And its not like it has to have a fixed meaning that can never mean more or different things.
Ok its language changes and i would argue with the current climate and the climate doom and society, so might the use of dystopian.