I Got the Supersix evo in 2011 same blk/wht color in this video and to this day i still have it. I rode other bikes and nothing compares the way Evo rides. It rides buttery smooth but i would smoke every modern bikes today with my evo either Climb or crit rides. To this day i still get a praise with my evo bike. How light and look good the evo is.
Yeah, love the classic look. @dave arthur, could you make a list of modern road bikes with a bit traditional look ?😁 (No dropped seatstays, horizontal top tubes)
Im currently using the 2013 supersix evo dura ace and this video cemented my views on how I don't have a need or want to change to the latest iteration. Its just all about the disc brake.Not much difference besides the tyre width choice and disc brakes. and the weight on the cannondale is just amazing. feels like a feather.
Agreed. I just picked up a 2019 CAAD12 with 105 for $1600. It is beautiful to ride. Upgrading to new Mavic Krysiums with 28mm GP 5000 and it is plenty smooth even on harsh roads. I do miss the disc brakes but once I change my braking technique when I ride it it is no problem. Also going to get some Swiss stop pads and should be fine. Compared to my all Ultegra 2019 Defy Advanced the Giant feels heavy, slow and dull, even with Vitoria Corsas.
I’ve been cycling for 46 years and witnessed fantastic changes and improvements. Currently I own a 2016 Giant Defy with disk brakes and DI2. Comfortable and fits my requirements. Also a 2008 Felt F3. I quite like the simplicity of the older models, especially when travelling to countries where it may be difficult to find parts in case something happens to the bike. Keep up the good work.
That’s because people realized that aerodynamic plays a huge role during a bike race, especially during a sprinting. More aero means much sharper frame which means more materials which means more weight. You certainly couldn’t feel the importance of the aerodynamic if you can’t cruise at an average speed of 20mph or 35kph for 60mil or 100km. Those aerodynamic advantages are certainly more important than saving a few hundred grams of weight. Plus a heavy aero bike looks much cooler than a thin round climbing bike.
@@leeasy7112 I was primarily referring to the relentless marketing of disc brake models to be honest but the point still stands. And as yet another rider of a rim braked, standard framed bike lifts Le Tour championship today I think we can safely say that these gimmicks pushed by the manufacturers is nothing short of rubbish!!!
Because weight matters far less than rolling resistance and drag. But, I agree, that a single faceted number like weight would appeal to a simpler audience when used as the sole benchmark of performance, as you have so evidently demonstrated in this case.
@@craigmc9877 exist a reason why do the pros uses disc brakes, they won’t use things that will make them slower, right now i think that everyone uses or if is not the most does
Just bought a 2004 “made in America” Cannondale six thirteen Healthnet team bike with probably less than 500 miles. Put Dura Ace 7900 shifters on it with a Deda cockpit and instantly realized how awesome bikes that are like new built 16 years ago. The shifting is flawless. Sprint stiffness uncompromising. The extra 1 lb weight and lack of disc brakes irrelevant when your racing criteriums and going after Strava KOMs. Why pay $10k plus when you can get an e bay special for $1250 with new shifters,cockpit, and saddle.
Agreed. I buy the best frames with the lowest groupset, then upgrade the groupset as the bits wear out and end up with a greater bike than what I started out with. When people buy better groupsets than frames, even if they upgrade their groupset when they wear out, they're still riding a lesser frame than had they just got the better frame from the get-go. I upped everything on my lowly $1,650 leftover SuperSix EVO and put together a fully custom top of the line equipped rig and with all the parts I took off of it, I slapped them on another frameset and I now have 2 great bikes (one 105 and one Dura-Ace) for less than half the price of one of Cannondale's flagships.
Second-hand stuff are less expensive? Shocking. Please tell us where we can buy ten of those 2004 bikes with less than 500 miles. Why pay 10k? Because some people just have the money to buy the latest “turn-key” solution and can’t be bothered to spend weeks on e bay to find a hidden gem. For some people, the saved time is worth the extra money spent. Shocking isn’t it?
I have a 2008 Madone 5.5 with an Ultegra triple (FC6603) that I moved over from a 2007 PIlot 5.2 replacing the compact double that came stock on the Madone. I cannot find replacement parts for the triple. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that buying an older bike can bring its own set of challenges. My options going forward appear to be a Tiagra groupset and going back to a CD. Which means I also lose one of my favorite features of the FC6603... the gear position indicator.
I both enjoyed and was discouraged by your piece comparing your 2012 Cannondale to your 2020 Giant. As a roadie, tri-athlete, former triathlon shop owner and general bike nut over the past 40+ years, I have to conclude that the state-of-the-art in 2020 is once again a triumph of marketing over engineering excellence. Given the choice as an athlete who wants to win races, I would pick the 2012 Cannondale over the 2020 Giant bicycle in a heartbeat. It is a superior product by every measure that matters. It looks better too! It is worth pointing out that marketing always wins when the cost of marketing is less than the cost of engineering and this is clearly the case in the bike industry nowadays because the bicycle is already a highly engineering device. Making further engineering improvements within the rules and regulations set out by the UCI is more expensive than simply switching braking systems. Wouldn’t it be nice if the UCI eased some of the 30+ year old restrictions on frame tube ratios or minimum bike weight. If they did this, the engineers could go back to work on the things that mattered and customers would get new products that actually delivered more performance instead of less! The primary engineering goals for road bikes concern performance improvements, period. These include reducing weight, reducing air drag, reducing transmission losses, and reducing rider fatigue. It is these improvements that will get an athlete to the finish line faster. Any changes that compromise these goals cannot be considered legitimate improvements at least not from an engineering perspective. For example, putting disc brakes from a mountain bike on a road racing bicycle is not an engineering advance because the additional cost of the tradeoff between increased safety and reduced performance (significant increases in both weight and air drag) is unnecessary for road riders. Rim brakes deliver all the stopping power that is required for the lowest possible weight and air resistance; the tradeoff between safety and performance was optimized a long time ago. Disc brakes require the wheels to be stronger, heavier and less aerodynamic (as a result of the increased spoke count and length) in order to transfer braking torque from the hub to the tire. For safety reasons, they also require a more secure and heavier frame dropout and hub axle. Justifying large section wheels and frame arches large enough to accomodate 32C tires in the name of improved comfort (reduced rider fatigue) also delivers negative performance and value because both of these features increase air resistance and weight. Such improvements in comfort could otherwise be delivered by simply switching to (unpopular) 25C tubular tires. While it cannot be denied that tubulars have fallen out of fashion on account of the need to glue them on, it also cannot be denied that they deliver the most performance in terms of having the lowest weight (for both the tyre and wheel) and the lowest air drag, plus superior comfort and safety. So why not just make better tubulars that eliminate gluing you ask? Wait….because that has already been done 20+ years ago by Tufo. Tufo has made a beaded tubular casing that allows their tubulars to be mounted on clincher rims that are widely available today. Now if a rim maker were to design a new tubular rim that fully supported the belly of the tubular while providing a low profile bead seat similar to a clincher rim, the problem would be “fully” solved once and for all. This is the type of system improvement that would actually deliver performance and engineering value to the customer. In closing my engineering rant I will say that I have ridden and experimented with virtually every wheel and tire combination that has hit the market since the late 70s and no other type system can touch the performance, comfort and safety (no front rim skating in the event of a blowout) of a 25C tubular. There are also many very affordable brands with incredibly tough and flat resistant casings available in the market. For additional flat prevention adding a few grams of liquid sealant is all that is required. For those who doubt my conviction, I would encourage them to train for an Ironman triathlon or ride a few centuries and compare tubulars to clinchers on alternating 150+ km weekend training rides.
mpvsystems one not so small point, carbon rim brakes have the unfortunate defect of failing due to carbon fibre overheating. There’s nothing you can do about it that’s the limitation of the material and it has nothing to do with material defects. Also they generally hardly work!
You mean as the frame but for components it's way better now. Dura ace 2020 is superior than dura ace 2010 right. Also disk brakes are way more reliable and efficient than rim. There are reasons why they are going global. It's not just marketing
SuperSix Evo is a tough comparison.... Folks are still using 5+ year old hi-mods as competition hill climbing bikes because they were and are still that great. And agree in general that frames haven’t evolved that much. Having said that, after using discs and di2 for regular riding, not sure there’s a reason to go back to cables (if budget permits). Also, discs are great for us cyclists in that there’s no reason you should need to swap out perfectly good $2k carbon wheels from brake wear (or have to store them for the winter)
@@vaporisedair4919 No, good modern carbon rim brake rims don't do that at all. Many have been tested well beyond the limits you would ever encounter in any real life situation. Similarly, braking on the best modern carbon rims is excellent. As I say elswehere, it's highly ironic that the problems that existed 10 years ago with carbon rims for rim brakes have now been completely solved, just as the industry is forcing us to move to discs...
Couldn't agree more! was about to post this exact thing, though maybe not as in depth. This video is nothing but an example of marketing vs physics. There is absolutely no way the TCR is as fast as the Canondale. Between the disc-brakes and the flat section/tube profiles. The TCR is an aerodynamic nightmare. It weighs more, isn't as fast. But marketing tells us it's newer and better in every way.. because well.. they need to sell us something new every year. :(
That SS Evo is still stunning - can't beat the looks of a traditional frame geometry. And providing you ride on smooth, dry roads, rim brakes & 23-25mm wheel/ tyres are normally up to the job. However, on potholed, pitted poorly surfaced roads, then wider wheels/tyres are more comfortable - and thanks to disc brake tech you can go wider.
I'd ride the EVO any day. My 9-year old one (same as in the video) is still sublime in handling, weight, power transfer, and gorgeous comfort. Moot point, but always loved the white/black colour scheme too -- stands out in style (vs 'yet another black bike') as well as in traffic. Update: Nothing against disc brakes and the whole festival of snooze, conveyor belt, marketing push, but I've raced confidentially on rim brakes too. Sure, I'll wait a few years to see how compact and more ingenious disc braked can (surely, hopefully) become :)
13:30 - Opposed to rim brake - "hydraulic disc brake is no noise, no squeal, just loads of power." - I wish i had your disc brakes because y impression of disc brake is more noise and a ton more of squeal.
Disk breaks are selling because bike shops ‘push’ them. I own bikes with both, but still prefer rim breaks ( and yes I’m on carbon fiber rims), you may want to try some different break pad brands.
Yeah thats funny. A few weeks ago i bought a new saddle in my local BS. I asked the staff about their opinion on rim brakes. They said, rim brakes are sh*t. You NEED disc brakes, WE ONLY sell disc breaks..... fun fact: 2 Years ago 70% of their bikes were rim :D
@@lipsterman1 I suppose there is a reason why disc breaks have been the standard on mid range and above MTBs for years now, but not on raod bikes. First of all, weight is more important on a road bike. Second, riding in wet and especially muddy contions is far more common on MTBs. I'd even go as far as saying that a gravel bike should probably have disc brakes. But a road bike? Nope.
Perfect summary. I own a top-spec 2010 Felt F1 Dura-Ace and recently purchased a 2020 Orbea OMX Ultegra Di2. Both are stiff. Both handle great. The older bike is marginally lighter. Even though the Felt has dropped seat stays (in 2010!) and 25mm tubeless rubber, the Orbea saddle feel (on 28mm tubeless) is MUCH more supple. Looking at the design, it’s clear that in 2010, designers added material to keep the seat post stiff. Oops. The newer Orbea has larger diameter tubes and a bigger bottom bracket for a stiffer platform. I’m not strong enough to feel it under power, but the bike is more confidence-inspiring on fast, twisty descents. The 2010 bike was twitchy in comparison. Also, I’ve gone from mechanical to electronic shifting. What a joy! I went electronic to avoid cable-binding in the integrated stem and top tube. Love it. But yes, it’s the discs that make the biggest difference. The old bike nearly killed me in the rain once. I should never have put carbon rims on it. And on my local steep descents, I have no idea when I might melt the rims. So I have no confidence on the older bike going downhill fast. I hated the experience. Sure, the old bike is fine on flattish dry roads, but living in steep terrain with variable weather, I’m MUCH happier on discs. Finally, aero... the Orbea OMX has hidden cables and truncated tubes. It also has wide, bowed forks with very deep sections. It’s definitely more aero. But to be honest, it’s hard to notice it. Am I going a fraction of a mile per hour faster at the same power? Am I saving five watts keeping up with my buddy? Who knows? I run 50mm wheels and the main place where I experience “aero” is with crosswinds, which isn’t a great feeling. So I guess it’s good to know that your bike is aero, and it’s good for PBs on Strava, but it’s not something that you really experience during a ride. Anyway, increased comfort, electronic shifting, and confident, predictable braking all improve the experience. Aero is the cherry on top. But if you race dry, flat crits on a budget, don’t hesitate to buy the older, high-end, carbon bike. Rim brakes are fine for that, you’re not racing for comfort, and you’re just giving up a touch of aero while saving thousands of dollars. Riding in the wet or on steep descents? Want the best riding experience? Want an aero edge? Want effortless, instantaneous shifting? Want less fatigue in the saddle? (And have a solid budget?) The newer bikes rock. And PLEASE don’t shame people for liking one or the other. Neither sucks. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.
Riding a 2008 model myself and can agree to everything above - except I'm happy with my rim brakes on newer carbon wheels myself. Would love to see disc in front and rim at the back. The ideal combo imho.
I find your videos and there insights great to watch and get informed! Ironically in my final analysis on a new bike purchase since my last one in 2008 I was between the Evo and TCR! Being on a retirement budget I went with the TCR advanced disk and in my opinion all the performance and ride results are true to what you have indicated! Thanks for your accurate analysis
The big difference in having disc brakes on road bikes is that they have made lots and lots and lots of money for the cycling industry. Best used on mountain bikes where they are great.
The key thing is making road bikes comfortable for an ageing market. Kids don't buy bikes they want to be on love island or in the gym drinking protein. Accommodation of big volume tyres a starter for ten 28mm tyres have 54% more air in the chamber thus more comfort. Thank god Tony Martin won the world's TT on 25mm to set it alight. Discs use less hand and arm torque so less stress arm and shoulder fatigue for the rider. I've been selling bikes for years and riders not getting any younger. The migration to adventure bikes apparent. As another comment says here as fast as the new propel is those 65mm wheels like riding on marbles at 120 psi. Harsh and stiff. Thankfully we've started moving away from the uber stiff obsession of 16/17. The F8 dogma was a plank on wheels. Look around your cycling groups. We've all been at it for years. The golfers went back to the club house. Comfort is everything now....
I just finished restoring a Bertin, Belgian bike, from 1977. All original except new rims. Compare to my other carbonbikes....much relaxed, more stiff, better quality.....did 120 miles yesterday and was a real pleasure. And it costed me hardly 100 e
As a bike mechanic I find road disc brakes infuriating but you can never take away the massive increase in stopping performance (when they don't rub, squeal and fade on very steep mountain roads)
10 years on that Cannondale still looks pretty good and I suppose you still ride it regularly. That gives me hope for my bike, which recently turned 5 hehe. I've bought 4 other bikes since then (TT, MTB and gravel) and sold 2 of them but the road bike remains. It has rim brakes but alloy rims and yes, they're not as good as discs and cannot fit tires larger than 25mm, but for flat roads they're ok. All that being said, I have no plans of buying another road bike in the near future, espcially one with rim brakes.
The truth is that road bikes reached a technological peak around 10 years ago and is exactly why disc brakes were introduced- because they simply couldn't think of anything else to push...sure disc brakes are more powerful and controlable but if they had any real use advantage for a racing bike they would have been adopted 15 -20 years ago along with mtb...plus they just make road bikes look dumpy and slow!
Disagree, owning a supersix evo which I still love in cannondale team colours (currently in a bike box waiting for my son to grow some more) vs my Spesh Venge 2019 with discs is night and day. The tech is so good now, I don’t for a second worry about my carbon rims when descending in the heat or not being able too in the wet. Not only did we not peak ten years ago we still haven’t. Happy to let anyone try mine on the local hills and give feedback
10 Years of progress, and all that can be said are Disk brakes... disc brakes... disc brakes. I think I’ll hold on to my rim brake road bike for a couple more years 😉
What's so wrong about disc-brakes. Literally everywhere were disc brakes are mentioned, people like you come around the corner and hate on them. Feel free to buy a bike with rim brakes, there are plenty models around. In every single price range.
Nice comparison, but just want to point out about rim brake stopping power on carbon wheels. Not sure what those wheels are, but stopping power on modern carbon rims that have textured brake tracks are a MAJOR improvement over older style carbon wheels and you can easily lock up the wheels very quickly. Unless you have a specific use case or preference, the lighter weight of rim brakes and ease of maintenance makes more sense for an experienced enthusiast.
I have a 2011 Canondale supersix 105 that I've completed upgraded to Ultegra R8000 with Reynolds 65 carbon wheels. I recently rode a 2021 S-works Tarmac SL-7 at the LBS and my first thought when I stood up and stepped on the pedals of the Tarmac was "this doesn't feel as responsive as my current bike!" At the end of the test ride I was still unimpressed. I want to "upgrade" to a new bike but am having trouble feeling like the upgrade is actually worth the money. And just my two cents worth on the disc vs rim brake debate: there's no magical difference unless descending in the rain, and then of course it's disc brakes hands down.
I have a Cannondale Synapse with Hydraulic discs that I use in winter and a Wilier GTR Team with rim brakes for summer. I think the disc brakes are fine for winter riding, though they are fiddly to adjust, a bit of a pain actually. The rim brakes on the Wilier work well with my Dura-ace C24s as the wheels are part carbon/ part alloy, the brake track being alloy. I like the rim brakes simplicity, aesthetically, and the fact that they need little or no adjustment. My Wilier is not high mod but it's still a lot lighter and it doesn't look all clunky like the Cannondale. I think disc brakes are cool but I'll keep them for winter riding. Thanks for the video.
I am new to road cycling and just bought an "old" K2 Mod 3.0 with Shimano 105 (older version) group set. All mechanical and rim breaks. I love the bike so far and honestly, since I am not a professional and I am in it for the fun and the exercise...I am okay with it not being modern.
Dave I have a Supersix Evo hi-mod as well on 50mm carbon rims and also a caad12 disc. I agree disc is much better but the Evo is such a lovely handling bike and the carbon just absorbs more of the bumps than the caad. I should try a new Evo to see how ride comfort has improved. I 100% agree carbon rims in the wet on a decent are about the sketchiest thing you can do on a road bike getting to the bottom hitting the brakes and not being sure if your going to stop is frightening!
Just ordered the giant advanced pro. As for the comments on the cables, some people prefer the ease of maintenance over style( I do my own). As for the comments on the paint scheme, I never thought myself as a fashion statement when I ride. Great review!
I ride both hydro disc, and rim brake bikes. No doubt hydro disc stops great, but so do my combination for rim brakes: Calipers are Dura Ace 7900 spec. Aluminium rim with Kool Stop Salmon pads. Carbon rims with Venn Fryse blue pads. Pull up absolutely fine, and I’m 120kg…
EVO and rim brakes. Keep your noisy discs. I have never run out of brakes, alpine descents, rainy shitty commutes, never had trouble with them in any of my travels. EVO is also plenty comfortable over 3500 km in 22 days, including cobbles and alps and pyrenees. I'll be sticking with my three versions of the supersix thanks. Someone said the tcr is boring, i agree, just another clone. Oh, discs are selling cos the industry is pushing them..... hard.
The irony is that in the last 10 years, braking tecnology on carbon rims has come on in leaps and bounds - indeed braking WAS awful on carbon rims back then, but if you just swapped the wheels on the supersix for some really good modern ones the braking would be transformed, rendering the discs on the TCR largely redundant.
@@The86rick You were doing something wrong then, or else are confusing stopping with something else (lever feel or whatever). Or are doing somethng extreme. How heavy are you?
@@neil7769 If a rider feels safer - he/she will ride faster - especially downhill. Can't argue with the subjective impression of safety (rim rider myself).
@@meibing4912 True - although there is no necessary relationship between a subjective impression of safety and actual safety. Perhaps the two systems are equally safe, but discs make some people feel safer? They may ride faster, but possibly also more dangerously.
What’s really changed in recent years is how bomb proof and usable modern road bikes are. The Cannondale in the video a dainty thing and hard work in the wind the rain over pot holes etc. The Giant will lap up bad weather good weather pot holes big descents and quick stops all in its stride and feel really composed while it’s doing it. The new Trek Emonda SLR is probably the way things are going with it’s fully hidden cables and wires threaded BB and choices of colour schemes and Project one component tweaking make it stand out at the moment although the SL variants are quite heavy.
No the new bikes are not bombproof, quite the opposite. Do 20,000 km on each of those bikes and you will find out which one is a nightmare to maintain. Only prob with caad is bb30. If it had bsa 68mm i would have all day every day over the giant.
Geeez I’d still take the Cannondale..... The way David presented his super six made me think of some of the old race cars that you’d prefer to take out over the latest modern ones.
I think the main reason manufacturers are not offering rim brakes, with mountain bikes and gravel bikes are 100% disc brakes, for simplifying the manufacturing process, parts and costs and makes sense for them to utilise one braking system on all their bikes they make. Increasing costs and efficiency to the manufacturer.
Hi David, really well made video, I like the information, your opinion, and also the on screen text. You could put a bit more information at points, but great work and keep it up.
End of the day one still has to pedal a bike and I'm still ridding my BMC Teammachine SLOR1 2014 the very same bike that Cadel Evans rode. So, if it was good enough for him, then its more than good enough for me to ride.
Another great video David, I own a Giant propel advanced pro disc (Ultegra di2, 65mm 45 mm rims with disc, 7.9 kg with pedals)and a 7 year old Trek madone project one (7 series dura ace di2 10 speed, rim brakes and dura ace 1840 alloy and carbon rims, 6.7 kegs including pedals). Both set up on 25 mm tyres and the trek is just so much comfier to ride, the propel is not uncomfortable but the difference in the rim stiffness is huge and you can feel it. My conclusion between the two bikes, 10 speed and 11 is irrelevant in all honesty (the 10 speed dura ace in operation is still better than modern Ultegra don’t care what anyone says) but it’s the braking that is vastly different, discs are just so so much better it beggars belief, it’s not the dura ace rim brakes are bad, they in conjunction, with the alloy rim brake surface are very good but not even close in any way to modern disc brakes which are just hugely better in every way never mind any talk about rain where the arguement just becomes pointless. Bizarrely enough though if I am going out for 60 miles plus and it’s a dry day I will still always go for the Trek, it just feels nicer. My point to others is rather than spending 4K plus on a new bike please consider a very well specced slightly older bike you can pick up amazing kit nowadays for way less than 2k.
I just wanted to mention that my own high end road bike that I built back in 2005, I already had a compact crankset (a 50/34). Maybe this came more known to tmy market before others due to the fact I live in very hilly terrain. I understand based on one's zipcode, you may find various items being offered that might be so popular or as well known elsewhere based on target marketing. The other comment I have is that the several people I know personally in various high level positions of professional cycling all have the same opinion about disc brakes. They all without exception are not in favor of the disc brakes. They range from pro team mechanics for grand tours all the way to the national champion rider in his home country. They all prefer rim braking systems. The National Champion I know even claimed they (the riders on his team) ride them because they have to, and are being forced to do so by the manufacturers. He also said that every team mate of his feels the same as he does and prefers rim brakes as well. The only guess is, that the disc brake bikes must ultimately be generating more profits.
I have a 2004 Giant XTC with hydraulic discs which are the best thing about it and have never changed the fluid or pads even though it gets a fair amount of use and they still work after going through a puddle which usually kills rim brakes for a few turns of the wheel, am also a big fan of Giants products
Informative review. As an MTBer, I know that disc brakes can be noisy, not stop in time when on tough, wet and muddy terrain. Even so, better than rim brakes for sure. I'm currently looking to buy a used road bike, which is why this review was of interest. Given all of the relatively 'minor' developments (internal cabling was around in the mid 90's) I really wonder if there is that much of a difference in the actual performance that justifies the price tag of new high road bikes these days.
I had a 2013 cannondale supersix 105 and just recently bought a 2021 giant revolt advance 2 because I'm getting too old to be riding those thin tires. Boy, do I miss innertubes
If my rimbrakes loose performance and squeal I sand the glazed brakeblocks down and they will brake as well as my alu rimmed bike again ( in the dry ! ) I do prefer my DB Orbea in the wet or in the mountains but in Flanders my rim brakes do the job perfectly! Maintenance is key, for discbrakes too. Your Cannondale deserves a ( twenty minute ) polish and wax-treatment, stunning bike! A clean bike is a fast bike!
Sorry but my rim brakes on my carbon wheels brake fantastically good. I have both laser grooved and plain 3K carbon wheels and SwissStop Yelllow Prince pads. No worries, no wheel abrasion (they all look like new after thousands of kilometres) and pads last for ever. They can be trickier in the rain but I rarely ride in the rain anyway. And I live in Switzerland not the UK, we have mountains here not hills.
I agree that David is likely missing the mark on this point. It’s not clear what model year that Scope wheels on his Cannondale are, but he could well be comparing 2010-era carbon rim brake wheels to 2020-era discs. Carbon rim braking surfaces have probably improved markedly in those 10 years. Where I would have focused is that disc brakes offer consistent wet braking, that you don’t have to be as worried about your rims overheating on descents, and that disc brakes generally enable wider tires (by letting the rims get wider) than rim brakes.
I don't trust any bike mechanism that cannot serviced on the side of a busy interstate, therefore advertise your hydraulic fluid actuated super brakes all you want, but a sensible amateur like myself will always opt for the simpler, cheaper and more reliable option. And if people want 32mm tires on their road bikes then they're not serious about it, so just get an MTB and ride it on the sidewalk like everyone else.
Just found your channel, love the comparison. The Cannondale has the looks but I understand the comfort of the new Giant. Just got back into riding and at 59 years young. My 2003 Lemond on the roads around here sake me something fierce. Bought a 2020 Trek Checkpoint and man I love it. Yes an upgrade to lighter rims and a bit smaller tires compared to the stock 40mm are happening for next spring but I still want to go on dirt and gravel and just have fun. Good job!
The SS Evo is the higher caliber bike no doubt, even though older, while the giant mid-level benefits from some newer tech. I have an older 2008 Six13 DA and a more recent 2016 Supersix ultegra level, which is more comfortable on longer rides, but the Six13 lighter and stiffer is faster on climbs for me. Different bikes, different strengths, different prices if new. I'd like to see same caliber comparison of this top 2011 SS Evo and the new equivalent 2020 SS Evo disc, for a better test of time comparison.
I am riding a road bike with Discs and tubeless but also I have an older bike with rim brakes. While when cruising on relatively flat and smooth roads (if you can find smooth) the difference are marginal to none. However add rough surface, wet conditions or fast downhill sections and the confidence you have on discs can make a lot of difference. Coming down the Pyrenees last October in a group anybody with discs even at dry conditions was well ahead and when it became wet the confidence level on the colleagues with rim brakes was miles behind the rest with discs. So it depends on conditions and style of riding.. Cruise slowly on flat dry roads.... then rims are good enough... Too many times I have been told that I can go faster on downhill or wet sections or stop later because I have disc .......
As a relatively new rider, I’d never consider a bike with rim brakes these days. The area I live in is mountainous, and I’ve had too many close calls with rim brakes when descending towards a T-junction at the bottom of a -13% gradient. The discs on my Emonda SLR have been game changing for me.
Will they be letting you test a 2021 Defy Adv Pro 1 Disc? My 2017 TCR got written off in a car crash and I need to order a new bike. But I'm 6'6", 18st and was tempted to move to the comfier Defy! However you did say in your previous video that the TCR is quite a lot more comfortable this year.
I hope so, just as soon as they have new stock in because they're completely sold out at the moment! I've been really impressed with the comfort of the TCR but the Defy will certainly be smoother yet
@@davidarthur I would actually be really interested know if there actually noticeable differences in the frame/ carbon quality between the Adv & Pro (TCR or Defy)? I created a post on Reddit to ask this but nobody had ridden both of the frames to differentiate them. Presumably the pro is lighter. However I didn't find the TCR Adv was particularly heavy ..also in XL frame size I wonder if all of the advertised features of the bikes are actually as noticeable given the additional size and weight. plus the presumed heavier weight of the rider on an XL
I started riding seriously in '83, and was a Cat 2 road and Expert mountain racer. I no longer race and just ride for fitness and solace. I despise noisy systems on any bike! On several occasions over the years, I have battled brake squeal on wet morning single track rides. My current favorite bike is a utility infielder 20 lb Diamondback Haanzo Comp with a humble 105 groupset and mechanical TRP Spyre discs. I still love getting out on my 2014 S-Works SL4 Tarmac. I, just this week, installed a 50/34 compact Dura Ace crankset on the SL4. The 54/39 is, sadly and admittedly, too much for this old man. Like a chemical face peel and lip injections on an aging super model, installing a compact crankset and Reynolds blue brake pads on your SuperSix could erase some of the years...
For novist rider disc breaks are over kill. The manufacturers push them heavily. I deal with customers who ride once to twice a week on their bikes and are at lower end outfitted with disc brakes. They are a nightmare to fix and are heavy. I try to ride 5 days a week 50 to 80 miles and find no need for disc brakes.
I disagree. A novice who rarely rides and then goes down a steep hill in traffic or rides in the rain benefits from reliable predictable brakes more than an experienced professional who knows exactly what to expect. Case in point: I bought my wife an e-bike. Discs were a #1 priority. She’s timid on the bike, especially on hills and near traffic. If she had a single experience of unpredictable braking, she’d probably never ride again. It’s about safety, predictability, and confidence, not how many miles you ride per week.
I should have been more clear the riders in my area wait for perfect weather and do not venture out to ride in inclimate weather. They buy bikes ride them for short amount of time and store them. There riding consists of Trails with inline ,joggers and kids on bikes. So speed really isn't a factor. They really don't what the bike has to offer
F1 Fanatic - That makes sense. Discs on dry, flat roads are nice (they have a good feel), but unnecessary. Rim brakes are fine in those conditions and they are cheaper and easier for many people to service. (Buy used for really great deals on rim brakes!) They’re a pound or so lighter, but those casual riders won’t notice the difference. Me? The road to my house has an 18% grade. The shortcut is 24%. And the weather in the Pacific Northwest can change mid ride. Yesterday I rode three bikes back to back. My winter bike has discs, 32 mm tires, and fenders. Heavy aluminum. Sluggish and reliable. My 2010 Felt F1 Dura-Ace is really light, but twitchy. The rim brakes on carbon wheels work okay in the dry, but they’re noisy, feel cruddy, and I worry about melting the clinchers. The bike is fast on good roads, but is over geared for my hills (53-39 + 11-27) and loses traction on my rough roads. It’s fast in the art and slow in practice. My new bike is an Orbea OMX on 28mm tubeless. It’s my dream bike! It’s real-world fast. The traction, handling, and brakes give me confidence to GO. It was cool to ride these back to back. On paper, the Felt F1 should rock. But on my roads, it was the least enjoyable and slow when riding with a margin of safety. On flatter, smoother roads, it would be another story. The OMX, however, works well everywhere. It’s a joy. 👍🏼
As someone who cannot stand noise when riding (noise coming from the bike), disc brakes are not there yet. My friend bought a brand new bike, the discs warped during the first ride and have been making a bit of noise ever since, so nope for me, even though the braking is much better
I’ll take both bikes👌🏽👌🏽. I have a 2011 Giant TCR composite and the components are recently upgraded to 105 R7000 groupsets. The LBS hate to work with internal cables.
Ten years ago Cervelo set the standard for aero road bikes, both in aluminum (S1/Soloist) and carbon (S2/Soloist Carbon). And, even though they didn't pioneer it (Giant did), Cervelo also had compact geometry. Rim brakes still facilitate faster wheel changes (which is important for racing), but disc brakes do stop better.
Got to go with disc brakes, been riding them on MTB's for a good while and rode the previous cantilever and 'V' brakes, no comparison! I have a Merlin X Cross bike with Force 1 groupset & hydraulic discs, very impressed, great stopping power & modulation on a bike with dropped bars. I have just bought a 2020 TCR advanced pro disc2 in metallic blue and looking forward to receiving and getting out on it. Still a few around but 2021 bike with DI2 electronic shifting also tempting! Great reviews, David
Rode my disc braked gravel bike all winter. Got back on my rim braked road bike in the spring. HUGE difference. My next road bike will certainly be disc.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Supersix evo still looking bad ass
It's incledible to see how the supersix is sooo BEAUTIFUL compared to the new Giant, and even to the new Supersix 2020.
That supersix is still a faster, stiffer and better race bike by today's standard as well.
Agreed. Brakes are overrated on race bikes anyway! 😜
I Got the Supersix evo in 2011 same blk/wht color in this video and to this day i still have it. I rode other bikes and nothing compares the way Evo rides. It rides buttery smooth but i would smoke every modern bikes today with my evo either Climb or crit rides. To this day i still get a praise with my evo bike. How light and look good the evo is.
@@popitn2nd yes still better than new evo
The horizontal top tube and classic road bike looks of the old evo frames is great.
Yeah, love the classic look. @dave arthur, could you make a list of modern road bikes with a bit traditional look ?😁 (No dropped seatstays, horizontal top tubes)
💯👍🏻
Cannondale SuperSix looks still amazing compared to the new bike, after ten years. And it looks also more beautiful than the new 2020 model.
Yep. Don't get me started on the ruination of that classic frame..
Ur damn rite.emanuel
Im currently using the 2013 supersix evo dura ace and this video cemented my views on how I don't have a need or want to change to the latest iteration. Its just all about the disc brake.Not much difference besides the tyre width choice and disc brakes. and the weight on the cannondale is just amazing. feels like a feather.
Electronic groupsets, stifness, aero, gears, breaking, comfort, tubless.. many ways to make us spend our money 😀
2018 SS Evo DA owner here! So true, bro!
Agreed. I just picked up a 2019 CAAD12 with 105 for $1600. It is beautiful to ride. Upgrading to new Mavic Krysiums with 28mm GP 5000 and it is plenty smooth even on harsh roads. I do miss the disc brakes but once I change my braking technique when I ride it it is no problem. Also going to get some Swiss stop pads and should be fine. Compared to my all Ultegra 2019 Defy Advanced the Giant feels heavy, slow and dull, even with Vitoria Corsas.
I’ve been cycling for 46 years and witnessed fantastic changes and improvements.
Currently I own a 2016 Giant Defy with disk brakes and DI2. Comfortable and fits my requirements. Also a 2008 Felt F3.
I quite like the simplicity of the older models, especially when travelling to countries where it may be difficult to find parts in case something happens to the bike.
Keep up the good work.
The fact the cycling media are now actively promoting heavier bikes, despite years of doing exactly the opposite, is absolutely hilarious.
That’s because people realized that aerodynamic plays a huge role during a bike race, especially during a sprinting. More aero means much sharper frame which means more materials which means more weight. You certainly couldn’t feel the importance of the aerodynamic if you can’t cruise at an average speed of 20mph or 35kph for 60mil or 100km. Those aerodynamic advantages are certainly more important than saving a few hundred grams of weight. Plus a heavy aero bike looks much cooler than a thin round climbing bike.
@@leeasy7112 I was primarily referring to the relentless marketing of disc brake models to be honest but the point still stands. And as yet another rider of a rim braked, standard framed bike lifts Le Tour championship today I think we can safely say that these gimmicks pushed by the manufacturers is nothing short of rubbish!!!
Because weight matters far less than rolling resistance and drag.
But, I agree, that a single faceted number like weight would appeal to a simpler audience when used as the sole benchmark of performance, as you have so evidently demonstrated in this case.
@@craigmc9877 exist a reason why do the pros uses disc brakes, they won’t use things that will make them slower, right now i think that everyone uses or if is not the most does
@@leeasy7112 LOL a frame makes no difference you are ignoring the massive rider on the bike go look at frontal surface there is basically nothing
Just bought a 2004 “made in America” Cannondale six thirteen Healthnet team bike with probably less than 500 miles. Put Dura Ace 7900 shifters on it with a Deda cockpit and instantly realized how awesome bikes that are like new built 16 years ago. The shifting is flawless. Sprint stiffness uncompromising. The extra 1 lb weight and lack of disc brakes irrelevant when your racing criteriums and going after Strava KOMs. Why pay $10k plus when you can get an e bay special for $1250 with new shifters,cockpit, and saddle.
Agreed. I buy the best frames with the lowest groupset, then upgrade the groupset as the bits wear out and end up with a greater bike than what I started out with.
When people buy better groupsets than frames, even if they upgrade their groupset when they wear out, they're still riding a lesser frame than had they just got the better frame from the get-go.
I upped everything on my lowly $1,650 leftover SuperSix EVO and put together a fully custom top of the line equipped rig and with all the parts I took off of it, I slapped them on another frameset and I now have 2 great bikes (one 105 and one Dura-Ace) for less than half the price of one of Cannondale's flagships.
Totally agree, whoever this chump is...he’s into discs and that why he’s getting slower!
Second-hand stuff are less expensive? Shocking. Please tell us where we can buy ten of those 2004 bikes with less than 500 miles. Why pay 10k? Because some people just have the money to buy the latest “turn-key” solution and can’t be bothered to spend weeks on e bay to find a hidden gem. For some people, the saved time is worth the extra money spent. Shocking isn’t it?
I have a 2008 Madone 5.5 with an Ultegra triple (FC6603) that I moved over from a 2007 PIlot 5.2 replacing the compact double that came stock on the Madone. I cannot find replacement parts for the triple. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that buying an older bike can bring its own set of challenges. My options going forward appear to be a Tiagra groupset and going back to a CD. Which means I also lose one of my favorite features of the FC6603... the gear position indicator.
@@Dee-Ell Those "people" are called douche bags
I both enjoyed and was discouraged by your piece comparing your 2012 Cannondale to your 2020 Giant. As a roadie, tri-athlete, former triathlon shop owner and general bike nut over the past 40+ years, I have to conclude that the state-of-the-art in 2020 is once again a triumph of marketing over engineering excellence. Given the choice as an athlete who wants to win races, I would pick the 2012 Cannondale over the 2020 Giant bicycle in a heartbeat. It is a superior product by every measure that matters. It looks better too! It is worth pointing out that marketing always wins when the cost of marketing is less than the cost of engineering and this is clearly the case in the bike industry nowadays because the bicycle is already a highly engineering device. Making further engineering improvements within the rules and regulations set out by the UCI is more expensive than simply switching braking systems. Wouldn’t it be nice if the UCI eased some of the 30+ year old restrictions on frame tube ratios or minimum bike weight. If they did this, the engineers could go back to work on the things that mattered and customers would get new products that actually delivered more performance instead of less!
The primary engineering goals for road bikes concern performance improvements, period. These include reducing weight, reducing air drag, reducing transmission losses, and reducing rider fatigue. It is these improvements that will get an athlete to the finish line faster. Any changes that compromise these goals cannot be considered legitimate improvements at least not from an engineering perspective.
For example, putting disc brakes from a mountain bike on a road racing bicycle is not an engineering advance because the additional cost of the tradeoff between increased safety and reduced performance (significant increases in both weight and air drag) is unnecessary for road riders. Rim brakes deliver all the stopping power that is required for the lowest possible weight and air resistance; the tradeoff between safety and performance was optimized a long time ago. Disc brakes require the wheels to be stronger, heavier and less aerodynamic (as a result of the increased spoke count and length) in order to transfer braking torque from the hub to the tire. For safety reasons, they also require a more secure and heavier frame dropout and hub axle.
Justifying large section wheels and frame arches large enough to accomodate 32C tires in the name of improved comfort (reduced rider fatigue) also delivers negative performance and value because both of these features increase air resistance and weight. Such improvements in comfort could otherwise be delivered by simply switching to (unpopular) 25C tubular tires. While it cannot be denied that tubulars have fallen out of fashion on account of the need to glue them on, it also cannot be denied that they deliver the most performance in terms of having the lowest weight (for both the tyre and wheel) and the lowest air drag, plus superior comfort and safety. So why not just make better tubulars that eliminate gluing you ask? Wait….because that has already been done 20+ years ago by Tufo. Tufo has made a beaded tubular casing that allows their tubulars to be mounted on clincher rims that are widely available today. Now if a rim maker were to design a new tubular rim that fully supported the belly of the tubular while providing a low profile bead seat similar to a clincher rim, the problem would be “fully” solved once and for all. This is the type of system improvement that would actually deliver performance and engineering value to the customer.
In closing my engineering rant I will say that I have ridden and experimented with virtually every wheel and tire combination that has hit the market since the late 70s and no other type system can touch the performance, comfort and safety (no front rim skating in the event of a blowout) of a 25C tubular. There are also many very affordable brands with incredibly tough and flat resistant casings available in the market. For additional flat prevention adding a few grams of liquid sealant is all that is required. For those who doubt my conviction, I would encourage them to train for an Ironman triathlon or ride a few centuries and compare tubulars to clinchers on alternating 150+ km weekend training rides.
mpvsystems one not so small point, carbon rim brakes have the unfortunate defect of failing due to carbon fibre overheating. There’s nothing you can do about it that’s the limitation of the material and it has nothing to do with material defects.
Also they generally hardly work!
You mean as the frame but for components it's way better now. Dura ace 2020 is superior than dura ace 2010 right.
Also disk brakes are way more reliable and efficient than rim. There are reasons why they are going global. It's not just marketing
SuperSix Evo is a tough comparison.... Folks are still using 5+ year old hi-mods as competition hill climbing bikes because they were and are still that great. And agree in general that frames haven’t evolved that much. Having said that, after using discs and di2 for regular riding, not sure there’s a reason to go back to cables (if budget permits). Also, discs are great for us cyclists in that there’s no reason you should need to swap out perfectly good $2k carbon wheels from brake wear (or have to store them for the winter)
@@vaporisedair4919 No, good modern carbon rim brake rims don't do that at all. Many have been tested well beyond the limits you would ever encounter in any real life situation. Similarly, braking on the best modern carbon rims is excellent. As I say elswehere, it's highly ironic that the problems that existed 10 years ago with carbon rims for rim brakes have now been completely solved, just as the industry is forcing us to move to discs...
Couldn't agree more! was about to post this exact thing, though maybe not as in depth. This video is nothing but an example of marketing vs physics. There is absolutely no way the TCR is as fast as the Canondale. Between the disc-brakes and the flat section/tube profiles. The TCR is an aerodynamic nightmare. It weighs more, isn't as fast. But marketing tells us it's newer and better in every way.. because well.. they need to sell us something new every year. :(
That SS Evo is still stunning - can't beat the looks of a traditional frame geometry. And providing you ride on smooth, dry roads, rim brakes & 23-25mm wheel/ tyres are normally up to the job.
However, on potholed, pitted poorly surfaced roads, then wider wheels/tyres are more comfortable - and thanks to disc brake tech you can go wider.
Your comment reads like you're looking at a 911 GT car vs an LMP1... When really it's like two sequential gen 911s... Barely different
I'd ride the EVO any day. My 9-year old one (same as in the video) is still sublime in handling, weight, power transfer, and gorgeous comfort.
Moot point, but always loved the white/black colour scheme too -- stands out in style (vs 'yet another black bike') as well as in traffic.
Update: Nothing against disc brakes and the whole festival of snooze, conveyor belt, marketing push, but I've raced confidentially on rim brakes too.
Sure, I'll wait a few years to see how compact and more ingenious disc braked can (surely, hopefully) become :)
13:30 - Opposed to rim brake - "hydraulic disc brake is no noise, no squeal, just loads of power." - I wish i had your disc brakes because y impression of disc brake is more noise and a ton more of squeal.
the wasp in the bottle holder on the Cannondale knows that it is a S W E E T bike.
Remember when they had wasps in the bottle cages ?
I remember Mark. It wasnt pretty.
What’s the story behind this? I’ve just recently got into biking so I’ve got no clue.
@@0RANGOTANG 01:30
I honestly never noticed until you mentioned it!
Mark Hales that wasp is carb loading on spillage. A juiced wasp is
on the loose
Great comparisons, more of this please David!
Thanks brix! Any particular comparisons you want to see?
david arthur Hi 👋- maybe a Colnago Concept vs Cervélo S5 or a Festka vs Cervélo r5? Also maybe an older Moots vs Curve Belgie V3?? Food for thought!
To me the classic SuperSix always wins. Just stunning and a great handling bike.
Disk breaks are selling because bike shops ‘push’ them. I own bikes with both, but still prefer rim breaks ( and yes I’m on carbon fiber rims), you may want to try some different break pad brands.
Yeah thats funny. A few weeks ago i bought a new saddle in my local BS. I asked the staff about their opinion on rim brakes. They said, rim brakes are sh*t. You NEED disc brakes, WE ONLY sell disc breaks..... fun fact: 2 Years ago 70% of their bikes were rim :D
That's interesting. I went the opposite on my MTB. I LOVE disk brakes especially in wet conditions.
Rims just look so much better and are a few hundred grams lighter of course
The big advantage of disc brakes on road bikes, is they have made lots and lots of money for the cycling industry. Best on mountain bikes.
@@lipsterman1 I suppose there is a reason why disc breaks have been the standard on mid range and above MTBs for years now, but not on raod bikes. First of all, weight is more important on a road bike. Second, riding in wet and especially muddy contions is far more common on MTBs. I'd even go as far as saying that a gravel bike should probably have disc brakes. But a road bike? Nope.
Excellent unbiased opinion.....Cheers Dave!
I have a 2011 Giant TCR Advanced SL 0 and love the rim brakes. I find them quieter than the disc brakes on my other bike.
Wow - 10 years! My oldest road bike still owned is from 1982, now that's some evolution!
Perfect summary. I own a top-spec 2010 Felt F1 Dura-Ace and recently purchased a 2020 Orbea OMX Ultegra Di2. Both are stiff. Both handle great. The older bike is marginally lighter.
Even though the Felt has dropped seat stays (in 2010!) and 25mm tubeless rubber, the Orbea saddle feel (on 28mm tubeless) is MUCH more supple. Looking at the design, it’s clear that in 2010, designers added material to keep the seat post stiff. Oops.
The newer Orbea has larger diameter tubes and a bigger bottom bracket for a stiffer platform. I’m not strong enough to feel it under power, but the bike is more confidence-inspiring on fast, twisty descents. The 2010 bike was twitchy in comparison.
Also, I’ve gone from mechanical to electronic shifting. What a joy! I went electronic to avoid cable-binding in the integrated stem and top tube. Love it.
But yes, it’s the discs that make the biggest difference. The old bike nearly killed me in the rain once. I should never have put carbon rims on it. And on my local steep descents, I have no idea when I might melt the rims. So I have no confidence on the older bike going downhill fast. I hated the experience. Sure, the old bike is fine on flattish dry roads, but living in steep terrain with variable weather, I’m MUCH happier on discs.
Finally, aero... the Orbea OMX has hidden cables and truncated tubes. It also has wide, bowed forks with very deep sections. It’s definitely more aero. But to be honest, it’s hard to notice it. Am I going a fraction of a mile per hour faster at the same power? Am I saving five watts keeping up with my buddy? Who knows? I run 50mm wheels and the main place where I experience “aero” is with crosswinds, which isn’t a great feeling. So I guess it’s good to know that your bike is aero, and it’s good for PBs on Strava, but it’s not something that you really experience during a ride.
Anyway, increased comfort, electronic shifting, and confident, predictable braking all improve the experience. Aero is the cherry on top.
But if you race dry, flat crits on a budget, don’t hesitate to buy the older, high-end, carbon bike. Rim brakes are fine for that, you’re not racing for comfort, and you’re just giving up a touch of aero while saving thousands of dollars.
Riding in the wet or on steep descents? Want the best riding experience? Want an aero edge? Want effortless, instantaneous shifting? Want less fatigue in the saddle? (And have a solid budget?) The newer bikes rock.
And PLEASE don’t shame people for liking one or the other. Neither sucks. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.
Riding a 2008 model myself and can agree to everything above - except I'm happy with my rim brakes on newer carbon wheels myself. Would love to see disc in front and rim at the back. The ideal combo imho.
Would rather have the SuperSix Evo.
I find your videos and there insights great to watch and get informed! Ironically in my final analysis on a new bike purchase since my last one in 2008 I was between the Evo and TCR! Being on a retirement budget I went with the TCR advanced disk and in my opinion all the performance and ride results are true to what you have indicated! Thanks for your accurate analysis
The big difference in having disc brakes on road bikes is that they have made lots and lots and lots of money for the cycling industry.
Best used on mountain bikes where they are great.
Road bikes also go in mountains.
To be fair rim brakes have also made the cycling industry lots and lots of money
A bicycle is easily more expensive than a good motorcycle nowadays... That's weird.
Reynolds power blue pads work crazy good! Sure disc are better, but for a road bike on open roads, no problem with rim brakes!
Reynolds assault ctg with the power blue pads. Stops better than my alloys
Yeah, those things kick ass. They also last about 5,000 times longer than Kool Stops.
The key thing is making road bikes comfortable for an ageing market. Kids don't buy bikes they want to be on love island or in the gym drinking protein. Accommodation of big volume tyres a starter for ten 28mm tyres have 54% more air in the chamber thus more comfort. Thank god Tony Martin won the world's TT on 25mm to set it alight. Discs use less hand and arm torque so less stress arm and shoulder fatigue for the rider. I've been selling bikes for years and riders not getting any younger. The migration to adventure bikes apparent. As another comment says here as fast as the new propel is those 65mm wheels like riding on marbles at 120 psi. Harsh and stiff. Thankfully we've started moving away from the uber stiff obsession of 16/17. The F8 dogma was a plank on wheels. Look around your cycling groups. We've all been at it for years. The golfers went back to the club house. Comfort is everything now....
The biggest fact, road bikes are not comfortable. I would a Sirrus 2.0 any day.
I agree I just got my first road bike! Did 150 km in one day on it and only had slight mild pain on the neck
@@Lolimaster depends on what each rider calls comfort. 21 year old Pro riders weighing 9 stone feel different to a 50 year old guy weighing 14 stone 👍
Hear what you’re saying bu as a 20 year old keen rider, I’d disagree. A whole bunch of my friends have gotten into cycling post COVID lockdown
I think comfort isn’t a result of an aging market, I believe it’s more attributed to crumbling infrastructure, the roads are getting worse and worse
I just finished restoring a Bertin, Belgian bike, from 1977. All original except new rims.
Compare to my other carbonbikes....much relaxed, more stiff, better quality.....did 120 miles yesterday and was a real pleasure. And it costed me hardly 100 e
That Cannondale is super freaking light! I’d ride that today without question.
As a bike mechanic I find road disc brakes infuriating but you can never take away the massive increase in stopping performance (when they don't rub, squeal and fade on very steep mountain roads)
Disc brakes and fatter tyres have been such a significant development over the last 10 years in terms of rider enjoyment, even aside from aero!
if i woud see ssome one on the evo i wold still say:"Nice bike!"
I'd take that Cannondale any day. Love the looks and that paint work.
David. that 10 year old Cannondale still looks grate today. Thanks for the video.
No problem 👍
Truth.
I'm on a Tarmac SL7, but that Evo is beautiful. I'd love to ride it.
10 years on that Cannondale still looks pretty good and I suppose you still ride it regularly. That gives me hope for my bike, which recently turned 5 hehe. I've bought 4 other bikes since then (TT, MTB and gravel) and sold 2 of them but the road bike remains. It has rim brakes but alloy rims and yes, they're not as good as discs and cannot fit tires larger than 25mm, but for flat roads they're ok. All that being said, I have no plans of buying another road bike in the near future, espcially one with rim brakes.
Brilliant Dave! 👍🏻
Great video David!
Glad you enjoyed it
The truth is that road bikes reached a technological peak around 10 years ago and is exactly why disc brakes were introduced- because they simply couldn't think of anything else to push...sure disc brakes are more powerful and controlable but if they had any real use advantage for a racing bike they would have been adopted 15 -20 years ago along with mtb...plus they just make road bikes look dumpy and slow!
Very well said.
Disagree, owning a supersix evo which I still love in cannondale team colours (currently in a bike box waiting for my son to grow some more) vs my Spesh Venge 2019 with discs is night and day. The tech is so good now, I don’t for a second worry about my carbon rims when descending in the heat or not being able too in the wet. Not only did we not peak ten years ago we still haven’t. Happy to let anyone try mine on the local hills and give feedback
They have yet to truly innovate on price. Cycling is slowly becoming a rich mans sport.
10 Years of progress, and all that can be said are Disk brakes... disc brakes... disc brakes.
I think I’ll hold on to my rim brake road bike for a couple more years 😉
I can only justify disc brakes on high end ultra light carbon rims bombed down the Alpe d'Huez by a 200lbs cyclist. Purely for safety reasons.
What's so wrong about disc-brakes.
Literally everywhere were disc brakes are mentioned, people like you come around the corner and hate on them.
Feel free to buy a bike with rim brakes, there are plenty models around. In every single price range.
@@Domenic-u6b mad because their 10k bike is losing value more rapidly
@@jaspa99 Is that all you can say because there aren't any arguements AGAINST disc brakes?
Also none of my bikes cost me more than 3k.
@@Domenic-u6b There are few arguments for disc brakes and many arguments against.
Nice comparison, but just want to point out about rim brake stopping power on carbon wheels. Not sure what those wheels are, but stopping power on modern carbon rims that have textured brake tracks are a MAJOR improvement over older style carbon wheels and you can easily lock up the wheels very quickly. Unless you have a specific use case or preference, the lighter weight of rim brakes and ease of maintenance makes more sense for an experienced enthusiast.
Nice video. I think your Cannondale Supersix has cleaner lines, the tubes and cables just seem to flow.
And far less maintenance issues with exposed cables.
I'd be happy with the SuperSix
Great video, enjoyed it, thank you.
I have a 2011 Canondale supersix 105 that I've completed upgraded to Ultegra R8000 with Reynolds 65 carbon wheels. I recently rode a 2021 S-works Tarmac SL-7 at the LBS and my first thought when I stood up and stepped on the pedals of the Tarmac was "this doesn't feel as responsive as my current bike!" At the end of the test ride I was still unimpressed. I want to "upgrade" to a new bike but am having trouble feeling like the upgrade is actually worth the money. And just my two cents worth on the disc vs rim brake debate: there's no magical difference unless descending in the rain, and then of course it's disc brakes hands down.
I have a Cannondale Synapse with Hydraulic discs that I use in winter and a Wilier GTR Team with rim brakes for summer. I think the disc brakes are fine for winter riding, though they are fiddly to adjust, a bit of a pain actually. The rim brakes on the Wilier work well with my Dura-ace C24s as the wheels are part carbon/ part alloy, the brake track being alloy. I like the rim brakes simplicity, aesthetically, and the fact that they need little or no adjustment. My Wilier is not high mod but it's still a lot lighter and it doesn't look all clunky like the Cannondale. I think disc brakes are cool but I'll keep them for winter riding. Thanks for the video.
love the wasp nestling in your bottle cage at 1:20-25
You’re so grounded and unpretentious, that I really trust your judgement, David. Thanks.
Thanks!
I am new to road cycling and just bought an "old" K2 Mod 3.0 with Shimano 105 (older version) group set. All mechanical and rim breaks. I love the bike so far and honestly, since I am not a professional and I am in it for the fun and the exercise...I am okay with it not being modern.
Dave I have a Supersix Evo hi-mod as well on 50mm carbon rims and also a caad12 disc. I agree disc is much better but the Evo is such a lovely handling bike and the carbon just absorbs more of the bumps than the caad. I should try a new Evo to see how ride comfort has improved. I 100% agree carbon rims in the wet on a decent are about the sketchiest thing you can do on a road bike getting to the bottom hitting the brakes and not being sure if your going to stop is frightening!
Thanks for sharing
I have an Evo 2 and an Evo 3 - the new Evo is amazingly smooth and stiffer than the old one...
The 2020 evo is a fast ride. Absolutely love it. Thinking about selling my tcr and getting one
Just ordered the giant advanced pro. As for the comments on the cables, some people prefer the ease of maintenance over style( I do my own). As for the comments on the paint scheme, I never thought myself as a fashion statement when I ride. Great review!
I ride both hydro disc, and rim brake bikes.
No doubt hydro disc stops great, but so do my combination for rim brakes:
Calipers are Dura Ace 7900 spec.
Aluminium rim with Kool Stop Salmon pads.
Carbon rims with Venn Fryse blue pads. Pull up absolutely fine, and I’m 120kg…
The bumblebee has made its pick. You don't question the Bee! 😂😂😂
Great video! Just what I need after ride as well as a cuppa.
EVO and rim brakes.
Keep your noisy discs. I have never run out of brakes, alpine descents, rainy shitty commutes, never had trouble with them in any of my travels.
EVO is also plenty comfortable over 3500 km in 22 days, including cobbles and alps and pyrenees.
I'll be sticking with my three versions of the supersix thanks.
Someone said the tcr is boring, i agree, just another clone.
Oh, discs are selling cos the industry is pushing them..... hard.
I’m riding the Evo with an aluminum wheel set in LA as a daily rider. It does the job.
The irony is that in the last 10 years, braking tecnology on carbon rims has come on in leaps and bounds - indeed braking WAS awful on carbon rims back then, but if you just swapped the wheels on the supersix for some really good modern ones the braking would be transformed, rendering the discs on the TCR largely redundant.
@@The86rick You were doing something wrong then, or else are confusing stopping with something else (lever feel or whatever). Or are doing somethng extreme. How heavy are you?
@@neil7769 If a rider feels safer - he/she will ride faster - especially downhill. Can't argue with the subjective impression of safety (rim rider myself).
@@meibing4912 True - although there is no necessary relationship between a subjective impression of safety and actual safety. Perhaps the two systems are equally safe, but discs make some people feel safer? They may ride faster, but possibly also more dangerously.
What’s really changed in recent years is how bomb proof and usable modern road bikes are. The Cannondale in the video a dainty thing and hard work in the wind the rain over pot holes etc. The Giant will lap up bad weather good weather pot holes big descents and quick stops all in its stride and feel really composed while it’s doing it. The new Trek Emonda SLR is probably the way things are going with it’s fully hidden cables and wires threaded BB and choices of colour schemes and Project one component tweaking make it stand out at the moment although the SL variants are quite heavy.
No the new bikes are not bombproof, quite the opposite. Do 20,000 km on each of those bikes and you will find out which one is a nightmare to maintain. Only prob with caad is bb30. If it had bsa 68mm i would have all day every day over the giant.
Geeez I’d still take the Cannondale.....
The way David presented his super six made me think of some of the old race cars that you’d prefer to take out over the latest modern ones.
But the the Cannondale is faster
I think the main reason manufacturers are not offering rim brakes, with mountain bikes and gravel bikes are 100% disc brakes, for simplifying the manufacturing process, parts and costs and makes sense for them to utilise one braking system on all their bikes they make. Increasing costs and efficiency to the manufacturer.
Hi David, really well made video, I like the information, your opinion, and also the on screen text. You could put a bit more information at points, but great work and keep it up.
End of the day one still has to pedal a bike and I'm still ridding my BMC Teammachine SLOR1 2014 the very same bike that Cadel Evans rode. So, if it was good enough for him, then its more than good enough for me to ride.
Another great video David, I own a Giant propel advanced pro disc (Ultegra di2, 65mm 45 mm rims with disc, 7.9 kg with pedals)and a 7 year old Trek madone project one (7 series dura ace di2 10 speed, rim brakes and dura ace 1840 alloy and carbon rims, 6.7 kegs including pedals). Both set up on 25 mm tyres and the trek is just so much comfier to ride, the propel is not uncomfortable but the difference in the rim stiffness is huge and you can feel it. My conclusion between the two bikes, 10 speed and 11 is irrelevant in all honesty (the 10 speed dura ace in operation is still better than modern Ultegra don’t care what anyone says) but it’s the braking that is vastly different, discs are just so so much better it beggars belief, it’s not the dura ace rim brakes are bad, they in conjunction, with the alloy rim brake surface are very good but not even close in any way to modern disc brakes which are just hugely better in every way never mind any talk about rain where the arguement just becomes pointless. Bizarrely enough though if I am going out for 60 miles plus and it’s a dry day I will still always go for the Trek, it just feels nicer. My point to others is rather than spending 4K plus on a new bike please consider a very well specced slightly older bike you can pick up amazing kit nowadays for way less than 2k.
I just wanted to mention that my own high end road bike that I built back in 2005, I already had a compact crankset (a 50/34). Maybe this came more known to tmy market before others due to the fact I live in very hilly terrain. I understand based on one's zipcode, you may find various items being offered that might be so popular or as well known elsewhere based on target marketing. The other comment I have is that the several people I know personally in various high level positions of professional cycling all have the same opinion about disc brakes. They all without exception are not in favor of the disc brakes. They range from pro team mechanics for grand tours all the way to the national champion rider in his home country. They all prefer rim braking systems. The National Champion I know even claimed they (the riders on his team) ride them because they have to, and are being forced to do so by the manufacturers. He also said that every team mate of his feels the same as he does and prefers rim brakes as well. The only guess is, that the disc brake bikes must ultimately be generating more profits.
I have a 2004 Giant XTC with hydraulic discs which are the best thing about it and have never changed the fluid or pads even though it gets a fair amount of use and they still work after going through a puddle which usually kills rim brakes for a few turns of the wheel, am also a big fan of Giants products
This video makes me want to go back to 2011!!!! Heavier? More proprietary parts? Through axels? Less stiff? Uggggh, give me the CANNON!!!!!
Informative review. As an MTBer, I know that disc brakes can be noisy, not stop in time when on tough, wet and muddy terrain. Even so, better than rim brakes for sure. I'm currently looking to buy a used road bike, which is why this review was of interest. Given all of the relatively 'minor' developments (internal cabling was around in the mid 90's) I really wonder if there is that much of a difference in the actual performance that justifies the price tag of new high road bikes these days.
I had a 2013 cannondale supersix 105 and just recently bought a 2021 giant revolt advance 2 because I'm getting too old to be riding those thin tires. Boy, do I miss innertubes
Excellent content.
They are taking about a super Six Evo being “antique” while I’m over here still riding a bike with a 1” head tube
If my rimbrakes loose performance and squeal I sand the glazed brakeblocks down and they will brake as well as my alu rimmed bike again ( in the dry ! )
I do prefer my DB Orbea in the wet or in the mountains but in Flanders my rim brakes do the job perfectly!
Maintenance is key, for discbrakes too.
Your Cannondale deserves a ( twenty minute ) polish and wax-treatment, stunning bike!
A clean bike is a fast bike!
Sorry but my rim brakes on my carbon wheels brake fantastically good. I have both laser grooved and plain 3K carbon wheels and SwissStop Yelllow Prince pads. No worries, no wheel abrasion (they all look like new after thousands of kilometres) and pads last for ever. They can be trickier in the rain but I rarely ride in the rain anyway. And I live in Switzerland not the UK, we have mountains here not hills.
No problem here as well excellent braking on my carbon rims and Swiss stop pads
I agree that David is likely missing the mark on this point. It’s not clear what model year that Scope wheels on his Cannondale are, but he could well be comparing 2010-era carbon rim brake wheels to 2020-era discs. Carbon rim braking surfaces have probably improved markedly in those 10 years. Where I would have focused is that disc brakes offer consistent wet braking, that you don’t have to be as worried about your rims overheating on descents, and that disc brakes generally enable wider tires (by letting the rims get wider) than rim brakes.
@@weiwenng8096 And wider wheels are heavier + disc brakes require more spokes + discs are heavier. It's a no-brainer...
"They can be trickier in the rain but I rarely ride in the rain anyway."
Exactly...as does 90% of the rest of us mortals.
@@colinandkerry Same. SwissStop FlashPros.
The Evo wins in the looks department ...
to me the Evo is far superior.
I don't trust any bike mechanism that cannot serviced on the side of a busy interstate, therefore advertise your hydraulic fluid actuated super brakes all you want, but a sensible amateur like myself will always opt for the simpler, cheaper and more reliable option. And if people want 32mm tires on their road bikes then they're not serious about it, so just get an MTB and ride it on the sidewalk like everyone else.
Just found your channel, love the comparison. The Cannondale has the looks but I understand the comfort of the new Giant. Just got back into riding and at 59 years young. My 2003 Lemond on the roads around here sake me something fierce. Bought a 2020 Trek Checkpoint and man I love it. Yes an upgrade to lighter rims and a bit smaller tires compared to the stock 40mm are happening for next spring but I still want to go on dirt and gravel and just have fun. Good job!
The SS Evo is the higher caliber bike no doubt, even though older, while the giant mid-level benefits from some newer tech. I have an older 2008 Six13 DA and a more recent 2016 Supersix ultegra level, which is more comfortable on longer rides, but the Six13 lighter and stiffer is faster on climbs for me. Different bikes, different strengths, different prices if new. I'd like to see same caliber comparison of this top 2011 SS Evo and the new equivalent 2020 SS Evo disc, for a better test of time comparison.
I am riding a road bike with Discs and tubeless but also I have an older bike with rim brakes. While when cruising on relatively flat and smooth roads (if you can find smooth) the difference are marginal to none. However add rough surface, wet conditions or fast downhill sections and the confidence you have on discs can make a lot of difference. Coming down the Pyrenees last October in a group anybody with discs even at dry conditions was well ahead and when it became wet the confidence level on the colleagues with rim brakes was miles behind the rest with discs. So it depends on conditions and style of riding.. Cruise slowly on flat dry roads.... then rims are good enough... Too many times I have been told that I can go faster on downhill or wet sections or stop later because I have disc .......
Awesome video, thanks
As a relatively new rider, I’d never consider a bike with rim brakes these days. The area I live in is mountainous, and I’ve had too many close calls with rim brakes when descending towards a T-junction at the bottom of a -13% gradient. The discs on my Emonda SLR have been game changing for me.
The old one, all the way! :)
Will they be letting you test a 2021 Defy Adv Pro 1 Disc? My 2017 TCR got written off in a car crash and I need to order a new bike. But I'm 6'6", 18st and was tempted to move to the comfier Defy! However you did say in your previous video that the TCR is quite a lot more comfortable this year.
I hope so, just as soon as they have new stock in because they're completely sold out at the moment! I've been really impressed with the comfort of the TCR but the Defy will certainly be smoother yet
@@davidarthur I would actually be really interested know if there actually noticeable differences in the frame/ carbon quality between the Adv & Pro (TCR or Defy)? I created a post on Reddit to ask this but nobody had ridden both of the frames to differentiate them. Presumably the pro is lighter. However I didn't find the TCR Adv was particularly heavy ..also in XL frame size I wonder if all of the advertised features of the bikes are actually as noticeable given the additional size and weight. plus the presumed heavier weight of the rider on an XL
Your totally right about the brakes.
I started riding seriously in '83, and was a Cat 2 road and Expert mountain racer. I no longer race and just ride for fitness and solace. I despise noisy systems on any bike! On several occasions over the years, I have battled brake squeal on wet morning single track rides.
My current favorite bike is a utility infielder 20 lb Diamondback Haanzo Comp with a humble 105 groupset and mechanical TRP Spyre discs. I still love getting out on my 2014 S-Works SL4 Tarmac. I, just this week, installed a 50/34 compact Dura Ace crankset on the SL4. The 54/39 is, sadly and admittedly, too much for this old man.
Like a chemical face peel and lip injections on an aging super model, installing a compact crankset and Reynolds blue brake pads on your SuperSix could erase some of the years...
Which bike ride uphill faster?
I dont race and usually on casual group ride with my mates we “race” each other uphill but we go slow downhill.
If it's really steep, the lighter one
The TCR is a nice bike, but the SuperSix is super nice, it is a stunning bike!
For novist rider disc breaks are over kill. The manufacturers push them heavily. I deal with customers who ride once to twice a week on their bikes and are at lower end outfitted with disc brakes. They are a nightmare to fix and are heavy. I try to ride 5 days a week 50 to 80 miles and find no need for disc brakes.
I disagree. A novice who rarely rides and then goes down a steep hill in traffic or rides in the rain benefits from reliable predictable brakes more than an experienced professional who knows exactly what to expect.
Case in point: I bought my wife an e-bike. Discs were a #1 priority. She’s timid on the bike, especially on hills and near traffic. If she had a single experience of unpredictable braking, she’d probably never ride again.
It’s about safety, predictability, and confidence, not how many miles you ride per week.
I love the disc brakes on my new Synapse. More fun to be able to stop on a dime.
I should have been more clear the riders in my area wait for perfect weather and do not venture out to ride in inclimate weather. They buy bikes ride them for short amount of time and store them. There riding consists of
Trails with inline ,joggers and kids on bikes. So speed really isn't a factor. They really don't what the bike has to offer
F1 Fanatic - That makes sense. Discs on dry, flat roads are nice (they have a good feel), but unnecessary. Rim brakes are fine in those conditions and they are cheaper and easier for many people to service. (Buy used for really great deals on rim brakes!) They’re a pound or so lighter, but those casual riders won’t notice the difference.
Me? The road to my house has an 18% grade. The shortcut is 24%. And the weather in the Pacific Northwest can change mid ride.
Yesterday I rode three bikes back to back. My winter bike has discs, 32 mm tires, and fenders. Heavy aluminum. Sluggish and reliable. My 2010 Felt F1 Dura-Ace is really light, but twitchy. The rim brakes on carbon wheels work okay in the dry, but they’re noisy, feel cruddy, and I worry about melting the clinchers. The bike is fast on good roads, but is over geared for my hills (53-39 + 11-27) and loses traction on my rough roads. It’s fast in the art and slow in practice.
My new bike is an Orbea OMX on 28mm tubeless. It’s my dream bike! It’s real-world fast. The traction, handling, and brakes give me confidence to GO.
It was cool to ride these back to back. On paper, the Felt F1 should rock. But on my roads, it was the least enjoyable and slow when riding with a margin of safety. On flatter, smoother roads, it would be another story.
The OMX, however, works well everywhere. It’s a joy. 👍🏼
As someone who cannot stand noise when riding (noise coming from the bike), disc brakes are not there yet. My friend bought a brand new bike, the discs warped during the first ride and have been making a bit of noise ever since, so nope for me, even though the braking is much better
That's usually a set up issue, not a technology issue. True the disks and align the calipers.
never rode disc, never knew this (warping) was an issue- yet another reason why I will avoid disc as long as I can
I’ll take both bikes👌🏽👌🏽. I have a 2011 Giant TCR composite and the components are recently upgraded to 105 R7000 groupsets. The LBS hate to work with internal cables.
Cannondale s6evo during 2011-2014 looked the best. That white green and blue color wave was incredible in 2013.
My Caad 10 `14 has the Liquigas colors, and my last gen Evo is so understated that you can barely make out the Cannondale branding :P
Question what is the max tire size you can used super six evo?
the moment u see scope wheels first time on other bikes than my own ^_^
still love them and hope they get a little more famous
David what is the major difference from a 2011 giant tcr to 2021 giant tcr advanced with rim brakes? Could you do a comparison.
Ten years ago Cervelo set the standard for aero road bikes, both in aluminum (S1/Soloist) and carbon (S2/Soloist Carbon). And, even though they didn't pioneer it (Giant did), Cervelo also had compact geometry. Rim brakes still facilitate faster wheel changes (which is important for racing), but disc brakes do stop better.
rim brakes with alloy wheels just work fine.
I’m late watching this. But I’ve never seen an alloy rim vs disc in the rain comparison. Hmmm!
@@Blah-blah-sure Pretty sure GCN has some comparison videos
LOVE IT TCR
Got to go with disc brakes, been riding them on MTB's for a good while and rode the previous cantilever and 'V' brakes, no comparison! I have a Merlin X Cross bike with Force 1 groupset & hydraulic discs, very impressed, great stopping power & modulation on a bike with dropped bars. I have just bought a 2020 TCR advanced pro disc2 in metallic blue and looking forward to receiving and getting out on it. Still a few around but 2021 bike with DI2 electronic shifting also tempting! Great reviews, David
Rode my disc braked gravel bike all winter. Got back on my rim braked road bike in the spring. HUGE difference. My next road bike will certainly be disc.
Cannondale for me but change the wheels!
I've got a 2012 Fuji SST 2.0 and the rim brakes are just fine. I have aluminum wheels though, so maybe that is the difference in stopping power.
Cannondale SS EVO +++
What is the original cost comparison between both bikes? Maybe 3 or 4 to 1? Rim brakes are so easy and cheap to self-service - a big plus.
I wish Cannondale makes a updated version of the old CAAD like thru axle, disc brakes and internal routing.