Really well said. The bike industry has lost its mind pandering to Walter Mitty types who think they can buy game and charging as much for a Tarmac as a Ducati. A$$wipes.
Spot on. I've had a 2013 Supersix Evo himod and 2019 Supersix Evo himod. Both with Dura Ace and both 6.8kg. The advantage is the jump. You can be sitting in a group, hear a bike coming, smash those peddals and the bike launches onto the wheel effortlessly. These light nimble bikes just accellerate so fast. They are fun to ride and Aero is in the rider and the wheels. You need to go fast on a flat rolling course, get 50mm wheels, on a decent I rolled past the pellaton with S-Works Venge's. I now ride a 7.8kg bike and I do find I can tuck and roll fast but it is a slug. Slow to react, does not inspire me to jump at all, I just let the wheel go. Wait two years and the new marketing will go back to lightweight, non integrated bars. Anyway, my two cents. Thanks Chris.
I agree with all of the first part Peter, but I seriously doubt the last bit, only because the reason they went this route is cheaper manufacturing costs, & expensive parts inventory & distribution. There is a very definite limit to what the market will stand, even among dentists & barristers. Besides they would rather sell a new bike, & not then see that bike on the used market. Everyone should buy a new bike, often! Look after what you have, me thinks they're the last of the pearls.
Try to find a complete spare bike, in this depressed used market, or at least a spare frame, group set, wheels & load up on consumables. If you're on Shimano, they now have nothing 9/10 spd D/A or Ult in stock, & it will very soon be the same story for 11 spd.
LOVE THIS! After owning a Colnago C64 and a top line Canyon, I let them both go for my beloved 2013 Felt F1. First gen D-A Di2 (still rocking the battery mounted on the non-drive chain stay!) and a great FSA cockpit. Recently added some aero Hunt tubeless rims with 28mm tires and a great riding bike became absolutely sublime. It’s hard for me to express how much I love that bike. Hard to explain, but it just feels alive under me.
When you know you know (there’s no explaining this)☝️ As for myself been riding my beloved Spec Langster (fixed) for over a decade - sold my fancy racebike when I made the realisation how unbelievably good it was (even with no gears!) 🙂
That was probably the last of the round-tubed bikes to be used regularly in the pro peleton (unless you count the Ridley Helium, which is a sort of half-way house). As such, it should be considered the pinnacle of its era - where old-school design met modern materials. A genuine classic
My 2012 SSE is the same model but weighs 6.39kg ready to ride, bottle cages gps mount, pedals and rear light. 11 speed Dura ace, Winspace Hyper 38mm carbon wheels, Cadex carbon saddle etc. At 68yo I need all the advantages I can get as I do live in a very hilly area around Mt Macedon VIC. Easily my favourite bike to ride, I do have 4 others including a fairly new full carbon disk brake Giant.
My 2012 madone 5.2 was purchased just because of the weight and group set. I added carbon frame fizik seat and carbon 50mm deep wheel set. Dressed weight is 15.8 lbs. what an incredible bike. I will have this bike until is breaks beyond repair
Thank you for your insights. Definitely you have NOT lost the plot, you are spot on. Marketing etc works on the model of what wins on Sunday sells on Monday and said racing bikes are (a) built for the pros - which happen to be 0.00001% of the population and (b) trendy marketing bs. For the average mug punter out on a Saturday morning coffee it doesn't make any significant difference. Re getting dropped by Tyler, this would be solved with a set of 45mm - 55mm wheels, no need for the fancy bars and the cables in the breeze are already in front of the steerer tube and tiny aero drag. Surely someone stateside (Tyler ?) would have a spare pair of lightweight climbing 45mm carbon wheels
Not anymore, the pros don't like them either, nor do the mechs, but they are forced to ride what they are given, & they are given bikes with the cheapest manufacturing costs, lowest spares inventory & distribution costs, & highest profitability. These bikes aren't made for the pros, they are only geared for them. They are made for fat doctors, dentists, lawyers, academics & such who will pay a very high price for them, up to a point, so that they can go out larping in sponsor lycra on the latest & most expensive, for a while & until the reality hits. Then the bikes get hung up in the garage, & finally sold, low mileage for a song. It used to work out great for us, when the bikes were great, but not anymore. I think we've now seen the last of them. The companies simply cannot go back to robust quality, on cost alone.
I think we are mixing up ride feel and actual speed. A lightweight bike will feel faster but may not actually be faster. Even at 10 mph half of the resistance is air resistance. However you are spot on in that the rider is 85% of the drag vs a much smaller portion for the actual bike so being in an aero position is much much more important. Also the wheels are way more important than the frame. I might rephrase and say because the frame makes up a very small percentage of aero gains compared to the rest of the bike and the rider on it, you would have to go 25 plus mph to see any difference in terms of aero frame vs lightweight frame. There is also the placebo affect which is real as well, "If you feel faster, you probably will push harder on the pedals and actually go faster". Its a very complex equation. At the end of the day for 99% of amateur riders you should ride the bike that you enjoy the most regardless of what the marketing machine wants to make you believe. And what makes the pros faster may not make us faster is a completely valid point.
Well, I had a 2013 SuperSix Ultegra. I sold it when I got my new one just a couple of years ago with Red electronic shifting, hydraulic brakes,...I kind of always wish I'd kept my old one..I miss that bike.
I have a 2007 Felt F2 with a Dura Ace/FSA drivetrain, full carbon frame. It’s stiff, fast and responsive. Total weight is 14.6 pounds with absolutely no flex in the frame whatsoever. It’s a joy to ride and it’s gorgeous. It only fits 23C wheels but those are still my favorite. Turn it downhill and it’ll out coast almost every bike in the peloton. The Dura Ace wheels are butter smooth and come up to speed easily….don’t need aero. Great video, finally someone says what we’re all thinking.
You're not wrong. I have been rolling slow on a more modern aero bike, and recently pulled my 2012 Dolan off the trainer only to find it was like taking off ankle weights. Lighter, snappier, more fun to ride. The Ares is a "aero bike" also, but it is not as affected by the wind as the Pinarello- which reminds me of sticking a hand out of a car window at speed the way if feels like it slices but is also jostled. Funny thing, I have been racing/riding since the mid-80s and don't feel like speeds have really gone up in a way that supports the bikes being that much faster. I'll give most gains, as you do, do aero wheels, and aero clothing and helmets. I appreciate your honest take here. Thanks.
You could also argue that because you spend more time climbing to descending (given that what goes up must come down) there is more advantage to a climber orientated bike. A friend with a top of the line Trek Madone picked my TCR SL up one day and said he has forgotten how nice a lightweight bike feels…. I just wish I’d kept my old Cannondale SuperSix!
About time someone got it right. Exactly what I was saying to a friend on a ride recently. After ten years off the bike bought a Supersix (2013) with 100 miles on it and love it. Plus is was cheap - $750 usd.
Good stuff. 7800 was the best, 7600 too. Keep your eyes peeled for good old stuff Mark, & pick the pearls. The most important consumable by far to stock up on is cassettes, there are no new 7800s (now 20 y.o.) available anymore, but you can still get some 7600 Ult, but not for long, btw most of the extra weight over the D/A is in the lock ring. Ult is steel, D/A is titanium, much less so is the carrier for the big 3 cluster, also tit on D/A. Another thing is that in extremity you can run pretty much any speed Shimano cogs, they are all made for 1/2 inch chain & will run right regardless of spd. The critical bit are the spacers, so match these to the chain you are using. Don't neglect to pick up worn out D/A cassettes if you see them, & there is nothing to prevent you drilling heavy cogs for weight relief. Just remember that the largest holes go closest to the teeth, & the smallest closest to the axis, not the other way around as I have seen someone do. Its an easy matter to unpin & re-pin clusters. In the old days Uniglide cassettes had threaded pins, so you could easily unscrew them, swap out cogs, even turn them around & get another go of a worn out cog because all the tangs that engage with the freewheel were the same. Uniglide cassettes have one extra wide locating tang, & the cluster pins are peened over, so they have to be drilled out, carefully in a drill press. To secure the work for drilling just screw the cluster in 3 places in between the teeth to a piece of wood then stick that in your vice & bolt the vice to the drill press table. BTW if you have friends on vintage steel, modern Hyperglide cogs can be used in place of old Uniglide cogs by filing down the extra size locating tang so that all the tangs are the same width. The Uniglide freewheel is of course integral within the cassette & screwed onto the hub, so you need wheel & tyre on held well & a strong arm to free it, as opposed to the Hyperglide cassette which is slid onto the freewheel, which freewheel is separately mounted onto the hub. My point is that there is a lot you can do when you can no longer get new from the shop,
the best part about that era of bike is that you can find them for some excellent deals, and it’s all the bike you’d ever need as a new to high level rider
So true all round Chris. I hadn’t ridden it for a few years, but took my 2011 Focus Izalco Team (the Katusha world tour bike model, but please don’t judge me for that) off the wall a little while back and took it out for a spin here in Melbourne. 10 speed Sram Red mechanical, Hed FR Jet 6s (at 1.75 kgs without tyres etc, they’re no light-weight wheel), and much of the same fsa cockpit as that cannondale on it. Sooo much fun, and still rides beautifully. Size 58, with pedals, cages, computer mount = 7.45 kgs! I’m now on an Izalco Max disc, but damn, the old bike = 👌 Oh, and don’t feel bad about old mate getting away from you on the descents, he looks to have you by quite a few kilos, and gravity is definitely the friend of us heavier blokes! 😜
Insightful. 99% rider and 1% bike. On a climbing intensive course this choice of bike makes sense. And you know how to descend so you didn't need disc brakes and didn't have to grappel with the dreaded disc brake rubbing issues
I have the 2013 model (pictured) today in 2023 its still the best weight/performance bike out there. Still gets lots of compliments. Love everything about my SSE.
My God. I’ve got a six13 evo and I’ve been saying exactly this for years. I’ve got a couple of more modern bikes, but the 2012 ish bikes are more comfortable, far lighter, and I think more elegant as well. Don’t get me started on my 2011 Cannondale Scalpel versus 15kg 2022 mountain bikes... Great video, thanks for the content.
It’s amazing how an alloy rim brake road bike at 7.x kg can weight as much a brand new full carbon disk brake road bike. I’m never buying a carbon road bike if it’s heavier than my old alloy bike.
Heck, my alloy rockhopper m4 was lighter than a lot of today's road and gravel bikes even carbon gravel bikes, and that had suspension fat rubber and discs it was 9.5 kilos with mid-range components if i had gone high-end, sid forks (or dt swiss carbon forks) xtr gearing, carbon finishing kit it, the wheels were already super light stans alpines with hope hubs dt rev spokes 1300grams. It would have easily been 8kg there or there abouts. That's what my mason definition 2 weighs now.
As another commenter noted, replacing the too-skinny tires at too-high pressures revolutionized his bike, and I bet that making your bars 2cm narrower would get you more aero advantage than all the other bits.
I was wondering about that. I just got back into road cycling after a 11 year hiatus.Dusted off my old 2007 Madone which I ordered as a project One. I remember weighing this bike built before pedals and it was under 16 pounds with SRAM Force. I live in Florida now and it’s pancake flat. I’m running Dura Ace wheels with Scandium rims from probably 2010 or so. It only took me a few months to get up to speed. Just picked up some 2010 Zipp 404 carbon clinchers which have the Dimples that were all the rage back in the day. Can’t wait to run them Saturday.
A customer recently brought in a 2012ish carbon Fuji. Carbon everything, rim brakes, carbon wheels. The mechanics all raved about it. It weighed 6.7 Kilos. The customer raved about the modern bikes we showed him. He was blown away by the braking, gearing, shifting, etc. (I think the biggest difference he 'felt' was the 28mm Tubeless tires) Anyway, perspective.
Fairly similar story here. Some of our staff purchased mid range aero bikes and they didn't like the weight. We once had a steel LeMond in that blew our minds. The thing weighed slightly heavier than their new carbon aero bikes. One of our staff also has a steel 90s Bianchi MTB that weighs less than any mountain bike we have felt so far. Though that would feel hugely different to today's mountain bikes. The nicer carbon rim brake bikes we get in usually come in at sub 7kg. I'd say modern road bikes just feel more luxurious to ride due to tires, braking and gearing.
I have a 2012 Litespeed C1R bike (a frame reputed at the time to have very good aero qualities) with 10spd DI2, rim brakes and aluminum clincher wheels with terrible aero cross-section. I am working on an upgrade to some carbon 58mm wheels and I expect this change to make a real difference in the bike.
This is what excites me so much about owning a 105 rim brake Venge. Only upgrade has been zipp 30 course wheels, and those alone blew my mind. To upgrade to 38mm carbon wheels, and light drivetrain, its gonna be plenty fast
Loved this video Chris!! My favorite bike to ride here in Colorado is my Fuji two.1 SL with lower grade carbon that i pulled off my Ultegra 6800 Di2 and full spec'd it to SRAM Force 22 mechanical, light bottle cages (15g), seatpost (136g), and wheels that are probably 1400g if i'm lucky - so basically room to loose more and the bars and stem too. Point i'm making is the one you made, it just jumps forward on those 9% and above grades.
I'm still riding my 2008 roadbike with much joy, yes, I plan to buy something new (instead of n+1'ing like I did since then), but I don't expect a performance increase. Thanks for this!
Absolutely right! I have similar thoughts. My 2007 bike weighs 7.5 kg. That is super lightweight for modern bikes. So I think I’ll stick to my old bike and maybe get some upgrades.
@@ChrisMillerCycling Two things: 1. Wheel set from Leeze CC 35 1250g or CC 58 1500g 2. 12 speed group set from Campa or SRAM. Currently I have 2x10 Centaur/ Chorus I am very happy with rim brakes and don’t want to change to disc. Unfortunately it’s almost impossible at the moment to buy this stuff and get it delivered (at least in Germany).
I have a 2017 version of that bike with disc brakes. And it's pretty light for a 63 cm being 7.3 kilos. It's the best riding bike that I've ever had. And yes, arrow only works when you're going really fast. This bike claims like a dream.
100% on point! I have an old (2011) Cervelo S2 that came with full Red and 1600g aluminum wheels 6.9kg. The wheels are probably the slowest bit given that they're only 25mm tall climbing wheel. If I could get something like Hunt 50 UD to drop another 200g, tubeless...but most importantly much more aero. The biggest issue is the very limited tire clearance.... My wife bought me a new Bianchi a couple of years back, and it was 7.9kg out of the box...It's gotten a little lighter, but not by much. The frameset is well over 2lb heavier alone. However, it does clear 32c tires which for many of the sh^t Belgian roads that I regularly ride.....a much better and more comfortable ride over the Cervelo.
My brother has that bike (hi mod). Those upgrades would be sick but an issue he's running into now is that modern wheels with rims wider than about 24.5 external don't fit between the seat stays. The clearances are super tight
I agree. I have a 2015 SuperSix and the clearance in the rear triangle is minimal. Biggest tires I can run are 25 and only some brands. It’s the bikes biggest flaw.
Interesting that when you're talking about the 8kg bikes, the shot shows "at 7.5kg .. it's average weight for the latest aero bikes" - not sure how much 200g over the Cannodale is going to make on the hills, even at 7%+. My 2012 rim-brake Domane is still my go-to on the road, absolutely love it, but I wouldn't choose it over a newer hydraulic disc-braked, wider tired bike which weighed a couple of Cliff bars more myself. Choices are always good though.
I just found your channel and am catching up -- these videos are so timely. I am currently riding a 2012 Specialized Ruby. I'm grateful for this video because I was about to buy a new Orbea in 2023. But I'm happy with my old Ruby! I actually don't feel a huge difference between the Orbea and the Ruby -- mostly the disc brakes. And that's because I average only 14 mph on rides! Awesome info.)
My 2012 Fuji Altamira Di2 is still a fantastic ride. Total weight on the M/L setup is 15.2lbs with pedals and cages. By comparison, my buddy's 2022 Trek Emonda (their "climbing" bike LOL) is 19.3lbs with pedals and cages. Crazy how even the lightest Emonda is still a little heavier than my Fuji but costs $10k+! My Fuji cost me $2200 back in 2012 and it's still going strong. Added some deep aero wheels and latex tubes for the fast days and the weight is still below 15.5lbs. I will say though, my 2022 Trek Checkpoint is WAAAAAY more comfortable on the long rides. That's because of the built in compliance and 40mm tires of course. The Fuji is rigid as heck and tiring on chipseal roads. But when I go on my climbing routes, the Fuji is absolutely my choice.
Oh I remember that Fuji, a mate of mine in Ireland had one. Would be very interesting to compare it to a modern ‘climbing’ bike … i think it would stack up very well. Thanks for the comment, it would be great if you also subscribed 👍🏼
@@ChrisMillerCycling would hold up quite well IMO. The Altamira was a Grand Tour winning bike afterall....2011 Vuelta under Juan Jose Cobo. And that Vuelta had a TON of fearsome climbs including the Angliru. Oh, and I subscribed :) Really enjoy the content your putting out there. Keep up the good work!
Personally I think your version of Supersix Evo frame is the coolest looking, ever. Timeless. And about your claims, I agree over 90%. But some of us spend money on new bikes without such rational thinking. We buy because they look cool. Still feels less guilty than burning cash elsewhere, like at the pub every weekend nights
Hey CP, thanks for the comment. Now I wish it was my supersix, unfortunately it was just a loan. As for ‘new bike syndrome’ … I 100% agree with you. I can’t help the pull of the nice new shiny thing as well
Cool project, love that modern carbon/vintage Super Six Evo. I still ride My pristine 2010 Cervelo RS (Endurance Geometry) While shopping for an endurance bike, tested Specialized Roubaix, Cannondale Synapse and was trying to test ride a Look 765 but were hard to find Anyway Cervelo had packed so many performance features in the R5 and R3 that Cervelo Test Team rode this exact frames at Spring Classics and Grand Tours. I’ve only added Michelin Pro Race tires on Ican Aero on DT Swiss 240 hubs and Premium Carbon Swiss stop brake pads and just a these changes have ompletely woke up more speed and comfort. Sucapaz black and white stars bar tape and Zipp carbon White/black letters water bottle cages and Light grey Elite water bottles. I just Save My alloy Zipp 101 for wet/winter rides. Love to add a premium mechanical Groupset but Shimano has screwed the consumers who still love mechanical grupos.
The best part of this entire video is: I have THAT bike! Last yr I added a 3T carbon flat arrow handlebar, elec DI2, Dura-Ace cassette, Sworks carbon power seat, Reynolds 66 rims, new tubeless Contin 5000 tires…tires make more a difference than most suspect. Shes lite n nibble.
Backward Hat Dylan had a coach on that talked about using computer modeling on an aero bike. He would add weight in the model, and it didn't really affect the speed, till he added over 10lbs to the bike. But, just like you said, the only advantage to aero is over 25mph, or going downhill. Froome on a TT race, computed the advantages of aero going downhill vs weight going up hill. The aero bike did MONSTER power on the downhill. He won that TT, I think it was Tour Of Switzerland.
Froome rode 2016 hill tt in the TDF . On a tt bike with a disc wheel, he smashed it beating Tom dumoulin for the win. Absolutely awesome viewing, remember seeing a spectator throwing a water bottle across the road at him, luckily it missed his wheel. Think it was stage 18 🔥🔥🔥🔥😁💪
Thanks for this insightful video. The marketing push is certainly strong in the bike industry. I have the 2018 model Supersix Evo with rim brakes. I've upgraded to tubeless wheels and tires, Di2 and a one piece aero handlebar and stem (just like your shopping list). This thing rides and climbs beautifully and I don't plan to sell it anytime soon (even though my peers have bought into the marketing and have moved to disk brakes, aero frames, hookless wheels). Your video really helps to put things in perspective and reminds everyone how beautifully bikes from the previous generation rode, before the cycling industry took a wild turn. Either way, modern or classic, it's mostly the person's fitness that matters the most. Awesome content.
No question that bike compares with current models. I rode that same frame in a 51/52 forget how they size them and it was an amazing bike. I now ride an Sworks Tarmac 2018 and it's still a rocket. I ride a size 52 and I believe that has a lot to do with the performance of these frames. They larger they get, the sloppier they get.
Love it Chris, you mentioned my Izalco Max - Happy. With your rolling resistance comments. I have 50/60mm carbon wheels and usually I have to be on the brakes when in someone's slip stream down fast descents, but following a Cervelo R5 the other day no brakes required, meaning his bike is quicker above 50kmph at least😎
Such a good comment about the ”save X seconds at 40+kph” metric that is used as a selling point for current high end bikes. Seriously, amongst us mere mortal who the hell is cruising along at that speed? 😂 Bikes from the era of this Cannondale were AND ARE Epic.
I have a 2016 SuperSix Evo(rim) which weighs 7kg and a 2020 Evo HiMod (disc) that is 7.3kg. Both are Ultegra mechanical. The older Evo just feels a little more lively and loves hills but the newer one is a little quicker on the flat. I will sell my old Evo over my cold dead body… In the U.K., the gen2 SuperSix bikes are selling for above 2016 RRP in the used market… let that sink in…
Great Video Chris, been awaiting this one and totally agree. So many GCN videos try and almost skim over the fact the Watts saved are tested at 45kph 😂😂 I ride a 2019 rim brake tcr, put some bora wto 45s on it along with di2 and speed sl70 aero bars I never felt like I'm at a disadvantage in my club on the fast group rides definitely not from the bike anyway just my legs at times 😂😂
As a bonus, I like the old classic look of this era of bikes. Some brands do it well but in my opinion the dropped seat stays and overall modern look of newer bikes are unaesthetic by comparison.
Yep. The point about frame aero effects mattering mostly at high speeds is spot on. And if YOU notice that modern frames are not a huge advantage then slow guys like me are getting nothing from it.
Agree, finally a good vid about the subject! Hope you’re able to perform the actual upgrades. Here a 6.9 kg sl6 s-works tarmac da 9150 rb with deep enve wheels, maybe I’m stupid.
this is realy great to hear! I unfortunately had my bike stolen couple weeks back and there are loads of gems on eBay that I've been tempted with but always a bit reluctant and thinking maybe I should just save up and get something more modern. But I'm also missing Summer here in the UK and want to get on the road ASAP!
Very interesting Chris. What is tha largest actual tyre width you think you could safely fit into that frame on a modern wheelset 19-21mm inner dimension. I would still be riding my 2010 TCR advance SL a bike that for Cav and many more was a TDF stage winning frameset, IF, I could of got larger than a 23mm tyre comfortably on the rear.
I borrowed the Mrs Giant TCR 2016 advanced pro (7kg) last week after a few years on disc road bikes- it was so much nicer to ride. Lighter, comfier - no 12mm bolt through the front end making the ride harsh ! & climbing was a revelation (like you mention) If you live in a dry country it’s a no brainier….
I have almost the exact bike in that video and recently refurbished it with wireless gears and deep wheels, where I agree with most of what you’ve said the bike lacks the tyre clearance of modern bikes which makes a huge difference, it’s a stiff fast bike but on 25mm tyre (most you can fit) it’s certainly not comfortable and can be very jarring over poor surfaces.
Very interesting video. Thanks. I'm still rockin' my 2012 Cervelo R5, 10 speed Sram red, and 23mm tyres on mavic exalith SLRs. Time to put it away again now for another winter. Can't see myself ever selling it!
My climbing bike is a 2012 CAAD 10 with 5700 shifters, SLK crank and unbranded shallow carbon tubular wheels at 1050 grams. Whole bike is under 16 lbs. Chainrings 50/36....cogs 12-30(10 speed). Perfect for those 13-22% grade kickers.
Even as a disc brake aero bike rider I definitely can agree with this video, most people just aren't going fast enough for the gains from the TT rig style modern aero bikes. However you do feel like a rocket on the local fast flat chaingangs or races though where 40kmh average is definitely on the menu.
Spot on! and you can get that frame for about $600 to $800 used Here in Vietnam. One of my bikes is a 2008 Raleigh Carbon team frame 970 grams and a Easton fork at 320 grams, It has an aero cut out for the rear tire. I think it is Just as for as fast as the new bikes at 7.3 kg it started out as 10 speed full DA I'm soon to add one peice aero bars and clean up the front a little With R8000 group set. New bikes are over sold With BS.
I consider myself lucky to have the 2011 s6evo with 50mm hed wheels, aero bar and sram red Etape group and its a bike I would never sell. I also have an sl7 tarmac and the ‘dale is a gnats pube off it on the flats and kills it on the slopes. Spot on as per usual Chris.
I'm with you bro ,The only new bike I got recently was a gravel ,Still have my 2013 red and black Wilier Cento 1 SR and see no reason to buy anything new yet in a pure road bike
I agree with nearly everything! However, even your regular Joe likes to do bunch rides and go fast for a little bit at the end coming into town. A bit of aero advantage there makes the fun bit even funner. And yes a 6.8kg bike will 100% be faster than an 8kg bike on a hill, but if you’re a heavy guy (80kg+) then I can’t imagine you’d notice the difference. Great video! Finally we’re back to a video a day between you and Jesse.
I've read that 85% of the combined drag (rider and bike) is the rider, the slight aero differences between bikes is only a fraction of the 15% of total that the bike contributes. So for the bigger guy, 80kg+ and I'm one of them, the fractional aero gains from the bike are negated by my larger drag values. I believe that only the pro level riders who are able to hold the perfect aero position and are so slim that they almost cut through the air will get benefit from and aero bike. Similarly a bigger guy may not notice the lightness of a lightweight bike as much as a smaller guy but they will feel the greater responsiveness of the lighter bike. So, what I think is that only pros will gain maximum benefit from either and aero or lightweight bike but the normal person will feel more of the gains from the lightweight bike as it's seen at lower speeds and doesn't require a rider position on the bike that's uncomfortable for the normal person.
I’ve just replaced my 2013 model bike with a new model and yep it’s (a little) heavier. Times on climbs seem to be very similar, but where I really have gained is wider tyres, much more comfort and compliance and a huge increase in confidence on descents and braking.
Yeah, for me this is where the gains have been made, the ability to run wider tires makes riding so much more enjoyable and not get stones jammed under the brake calipers which has ruined races for me that I spent months preparing for. I still have a couple of rim brake bikes, one of which I had the rear brake bridge raised so I could run wider tires. Sold my bikes that would only fit 25mm.
I think the big think is the price/performance ratio has gone out of wack. A few years ago you buy a bike at the UCI limit with say Ultegra the would be the same as the top level and it would be well under £3k. Now you get 'climbing' bikes at £5k with lower spec carbon that are well above the UCI limit e.g Emonda SL that look lovely but are quite weighty for a climbing bike. Aero wise I have an ex-sunweb team R5 rim frame/forks with 38cm bars, a Tririg front brake the narrower Elite bottles & Swissside wheels that holds its speed really well on the flat & is much lighter than the equivalent disk brake bike that matches it out the pack aerowise.
Really enjoyed this vid Chris. I used to own a Cannondale Cad4 back in the day and road the paints off that bike, probably did about 900-1100 kms a mth back than. It was a great bike and I wish I’d kept it. But a Cannondale collector type bike enthusiast offered what I thought was decent money for it and so I let it go. Big mistake and I should have kept it for nostalgic reasons if nothing else. I’ve since had a Cervelo S5 and I’m currently on an S-Works Tarmac SL 6. Sure it’s a nice bike and I prefer it over my old S5, but deep down, my old Cannondale was still a joy to ride. Although an aluminium frame, the Cannondale was stiff, responsive and really pretty comfortable. Most Sundays we’d be in the saddle between 3-4hrs. Yep miss the old bike. Hey thanks for your great content and sorry to hear Nero Continental is coming to an end. Look forward to more vlogs from you 🚴🏼🤙
@@ChrisMillerCycling the feedback is only commensurate to the content presented. You know the old saying, garbage in, garbage out. Hey I’ve never risen to the levels you’ve risen to and rode or even the standard you ride. Hell, I know Jack *#%^ really about cycling, but I love it. I’m actually deciding if I flick my S-Works for a BMC SLR One Team or one. The S-Works is a great bike, but hey every other rider has one and I’d have bought a BMC before the S-Works if I could have scored on in my size. But there were no 51cm bikes available at the time and so the S-Works it was. War h this space. Go well hey and go push more pedals. 🤪
It doesn't need to be at and avg of 40 km/h, if I spend 40% of my ride at over 40 km/h, this is where I'm making my saving. If I'm going into a 25km/h headwind and averaging 30 km/h that's my 40 km/h. Aero definitely makes a difference. The sucky thing is how expensive drivetrains are.
Isn’t it ironic that the manufacturers all say lighter, stiffer, faster, yet bikes from 20yrs ago were just as light and, arguably, stiffer. I remember my Trek 5200OCLV, the aluminum Orbea I rode in 2001-2003…great bikes. And they cost 5-7k less. I have 3 now: System Six, Madone SLR7, and a Factor One. Only the Factor feels close to what I used to ride. The other two are sluggish as hell due to their weight.
Heck, I ride a 2012 Felt F5. Brand new condition and plenty for me. And got it used at 8 years old with 200 miles, all original, for $800! Same bike now $6,000 to $8,000. Save your money.
Yes they were better and the aero “advantages” of a modern bike are so small that what’s more important is your rim depth. Put deep rims on a climbing bike and it’s better than an aerodynamic bike frame.
A note on your mate passing you on the downhills. Try that test again with both on the same wheelset. Aero is marketing bs. Van der poel would spank everyone on the supersix evo no different than the aeroad.
I have a 2016 Bh Ultralight evo with Dura ace weighing at 14.5 Lbs. (6.57 kg). I have a 2010 Bh G5 with Dura ace weighing in at 13.5 lbs (6.12 kg.) Great for New England climbs. I cant believe how heavy some of these $12,000 Aero bikes are.
the human on board the bike is still the overwhelming determinant of performance. but we cant discount the confidence new bike etc can have on rider psyche
Been riding and racing a 2010 Fuji SL comp last 12 months. Dragged out of retirement. to have some fun, stiffest bike I have ever ridden (and I have ridden a few including aero race bikes and new and old alloy). Unfortunately it is an entry level. frame, with lower grade carbon. (might explain stiffness) and alloy steerer. tube, so not the lightest. 7.5kg with mix of SRAM. Red/Force 10speed groupset. and 55mm carbon wheels with Powertap hub. Don't really see any disadvantages racing at my level on a 12 year. old bike, haven't raced in the rain this time yet. From experience to keep up with Tyler at speed, deeper wheels, better tyres and latex (or tpu) inner tubes. I was gaining. on and passing riders on far more modern race bikes on descents in the crits with downhill sections.
The top spec was one of the last great rim brake hyperlight bikes. Same carbon technology as the Aethos with smooth inside tubes and easy to build up a sub 5.5kg reliable weapon.
They were better, imho. That's what I raced on and what I love, so it is subjective, but rim brakes is what I went with when I bought a new bike recently. Don't like disc brakes and don't want them.
Duration 2020, amidst the pandemic, I stumbled on a 61cm Cervelo RCA frameset (1,060gms complete) for a song, & did the same. I can't ride like a pro uphill, but downhill aero gains can benefit us all. Seems you've jumped back inside the marketing box recently?
Great to see push-back on the tsunami of marketing BS we get from the cycling industry. Great work 👏
Really well said. The bike industry has lost its mind pandering to Walter Mitty types who think they can buy game and charging as much for a Tarmac as a Ducati. A$$wipes.
Spot on. I've had a 2013 Supersix Evo himod and 2019 Supersix Evo himod. Both with Dura Ace and both 6.8kg. The advantage is the jump. You can be sitting in a group, hear a bike coming, smash those peddals and the bike launches onto the wheel effortlessly. These light nimble bikes just accellerate so fast. They are fun to ride and Aero is in the rider and the wheels. You need to go fast on a flat rolling course, get 50mm wheels, on a decent I rolled past the pellaton with S-Works Venge's. I now ride a 7.8kg bike and I do find I can tuck and roll fast but it is a slug. Slow to react, does not inspire me to jump at all, I just let the wheel go. Wait two years and the new marketing will go back to lightweight, non integrated bars. Anyway, my two cents. Thanks Chris.
... pedals*, accelerate*, peloton* ... otherwise completely agreed.
I agree with all of the first part Peter, but I seriously doubt the last bit, only because the reason they went this route is cheaper manufacturing costs, & expensive parts inventory & distribution. There is a very definite limit to what the market will stand, even among dentists & barristers. Besides they would rather sell a new bike, & not then see that bike on the used market. Everyone should buy a new bike, often! Look after what you have, me thinks they're the last of the pearls.
All good reasons for not buying a new road bike! My current lightweightt rim brake 8 year old carbon road bike is all the bike I'll ever need.
Try to find a complete spare bike, in this depressed used market, or at least a spare frame, group set, wheels & load up on consumables. If you're on Shimano, they now have nothing 9/10 spd D/A or Ult in stock, & it will very soon be the same story for 11 spd.
LOVE THIS! After owning a Colnago C64 and a top line Canyon, I let them both go for my beloved 2013 Felt F1. First gen D-A Di2 (still rocking the battery mounted on the non-drive chain stay!) and a great FSA cockpit. Recently added some aero Hunt tubeless rims with 28mm tires and a great riding bike became absolutely sublime. It’s hard for me to express how much I love that bike. Hard to explain, but it just feels alive under me.
When you know you know (there’s no explaining this)☝️ As for myself been riding my beloved Spec Langster (fixed) for over a decade - sold my fancy racebike when I made the realisation how unbelievably good it was (even with no gears!) 🙂
That was probably the last of the round-tubed bikes to be used regularly in the pro peleton (unless you count the Ridley Helium, which is a sort of half-way house). As such, it should be considered the pinnacle of its era - where old-school design met modern materials. A genuine classic
My 2012 SSE is the same model but weighs 6.39kg ready to ride, bottle cages gps mount, pedals and rear light. 11 speed Dura ace, Winspace Hyper 38mm carbon wheels, Cadex carbon saddle etc. At 68yo I need all the advantages I can get as I do live in a very hilly area around Mt Macedon VIC. Easily my favourite bike to ride, I do have 4 others including a fairly new full carbon disk brake Giant.
Straight up and no holding back is just another reason I'm a fan. Nice one man. Loved the one with Tyler also.
That particular supersix frame got special feeling to it, better than many current frame on the market.
Totally agree
My 2012 madone 5.2 was purchased just because of the weight and group set. I added carbon frame fizik seat and carbon 50mm deep wheel set. Dressed weight is 15.8 lbs. what an incredible bike. I will have this bike until is breaks beyond repair
Thank you for your insights. Definitely you have NOT lost the plot, you are spot on. Marketing etc works on the model of what wins on Sunday sells on Monday and said racing bikes are (a) built for the pros - which happen to be 0.00001% of the population and (b) trendy marketing bs. For the average mug punter out on a Saturday morning coffee it doesn't make any significant difference. Re getting dropped by Tyler, this would be solved with a set of 45mm - 55mm wheels, no need for the fancy bars and the cables in the breeze are already in front of the steerer tube and tiny aero drag. Surely someone stateside (Tyler ?) would have a spare pair of lightweight climbing 45mm carbon wheels
Not anymore, the pros don't like them either, nor do the mechs, but they are forced to ride what they are given, & they are given bikes with the cheapest manufacturing costs, lowest spares inventory & distribution costs, & highest profitability. These bikes aren't made for the pros, they are only geared for them. They are made for fat doctors, dentists, lawyers, academics & such who will pay a very high price for them, up to a point, so that they can go out larping in sponsor lycra on the latest & most expensive, for a while & until the reality hits. Then the bikes get hung up in the garage, & finally sold, low mileage for a song. It used to work out great for us, when the bikes were great, but not anymore. I think we've now seen the last of them. The companies simply cannot go back to robust quality, on cost alone.
I think we are mixing up ride feel and actual speed. A lightweight bike will feel faster but may not actually be faster. Even at 10 mph half of the resistance is air resistance. However you are spot on in that the rider is 85% of the drag vs a much smaller portion for the actual bike so being in an aero position is much much more important. Also the wheels are way more important than the frame. I might rephrase and say because the frame makes up a very small percentage of aero gains compared to the rest of the bike and the rider on it, you would have to go 25 plus mph to see any difference in terms of aero frame vs lightweight frame. There is also the placebo affect which is real as well, "If you feel faster, you probably will push harder on the pedals and actually go faster". Its a very complex equation. At the end of the day for 99% of amateur riders you should ride the bike that you enjoy the most regardless of what the marketing machine wants to make you believe. And what makes the pros faster may not make us faster is a completely valid point.
Well, I had a 2013 SuperSix Ultegra. I sold it when I got my new one just a couple of years ago with Red electronic shifting, hydraulic brakes,...I kind of always wish I'd kept my old one..I miss that bike.
I have a 2007 Felt F2 with a Dura Ace/FSA drivetrain, full carbon frame. It’s stiff, fast and responsive. Total weight is 14.6 pounds with absolutely no flex in the frame whatsoever. It’s a joy to ride and it’s gorgeous. It only fits 23C wheels but those are still my favorite. Turn it downhill and it’ll out coast almost every bike in the peloton. The Dura Ace wheels are butter smooth and come up to speed easily….don’t need aero. Great video, finally someone says what we’re all thinking.
You're not wrong. I have been rolling slow on a more modern aero bike, and recently pulled my 2012 Dolan off the trainer only to find it was like taking off ankle weights. Lighter, snappier, more fun to ride. The Ares is a "aero bike" also, but it is not as affected by the wind as the Pinarello- which reminds me of sticking a hand out of a car window at speed the way if feels like it slices but is also jostled. Funny thing, I have been racing/riding since the mid-80s and don't feel like speeds have really gone up in a way that supports the bikes being that much faster. I'll give most gains, as you do, do aero wheels, and aero clothing and helmets. I appreciate your honest take here. Thanks.
You could also argue that because you spend more time climbing to descending (given that what goes up must come down) there is more advantage to a climber orientated bike. A friend with a top of the line Trek Madone picked my TCR SL up one day and said he has forgotten how nice a lightweight bike feels…. I just wish I’d kept my old Cannondale SuperSix!
About time somebody talked about this and all the marketing BS of modern bikes.
What do you mean about time? RUclips comments section is full of people who refuse to accept modern bikes and will bring it in to every conversation
Durianrider practically dedicated his channel to this exact topic for the last 4yrs. He buys up all the golden era Sworks etc and re sells them.
About time someone got it right. Exactly what I was saying to a friend on a ride recently. After ten years off the bike bought a Supersix (2013) with 100 miles on it and love it. Plus is was cheap - $750 usd.
Absolutely on point, I have a Super Six Evo from 2015, SRAM Red, Vision Metron 55’s, a Sagan replica and it weighs 6.4kg, it’s awesome to ride.
Got a cheap alloy bike I first started with, came with Claris & heavy wheels. Put donated 7800 Dura Ace and old Zipp CSC on it. Transformed it!
Good stuff. 7800 was the best, 7600 too. Keep your eyes peeled for good old stuff Mark, & pick the pearls.
The most important consumable by far to stock up on is cassettes, there are no new 7800s (now 20 y.o.) available anymore, but you can still get some 7600 Ult, but not for long, btw most of the extra weight over the D/A is in the lock ring. Ult is steel, D/A is titanium, much less so is the carrier for the big 3 cluster, also tit on D/A. Another thing is that in extremity you can run pretty much any speed Shimano cogs, they are all made for 1/2 inch chain & will run right regardless of spd. The critical bit are the spacers, so match these to the chain you are using. Don't neglect to pick up worn out D/A cassettes if you see them, & there is nothing to prevent you drilling heavy cogs for weight relief. Just remember that the largest holes go closest to the teeth, & the smallest closest to the axis, not the other way around as I have seen someone do. Its an easy matter to unpin & re-pin clusters. In the old days Uniglide cassettes had threaded pins, so you could easily unscrew them, swap out cogs, even turn them around & get another go of a worn out cog because all the tangs that engage with the freewheel were the same. Uniglide cassettes have one extra wide locating tang, & the cluster pins are peened over, so they have to be drilled out, carefully in a drill press. To secure the work for drilling just screw the cluster in 3 places in between the teeth to a piece of wood then stick that in your vice & bolt the vice to the drill press table. BTW if you have friends on vintage steel, modern Hyperglide cogs can be used in place of old Uniglide cogs by filing down the extra size locating tang so that all the tangs are the same width. The Uniglide freewheel is of course integral within the cassette & screwed onto the hub, so you need wheel & tyre on held well & a strong arm to free it, as opposed to the Hyperglide cassette which is slid onto the freewheel, which freewheel is separately mounted onto the hub.
My point is that there is a lot you can do when you can no longer get new from the shop,
the best part about that era of bike is that you can find them for some excellent deals, and it’s all the bike you’d ever need as a new to high level rider
So true all round Chris.
I hadn’t ridden it for a few years, but took my 2011 Focus Izalco Team (the Katusha world tour bike model, but please don’t judge me for that) off the wall a little while back and took it out for a spin here in Melbourne. 10 speed Sram Red mechanical, Hed FR Jet 6s (at 1.75 kgs without tyres etc, they’re no light-weight wheel), and much of the same fsa cockpit as that cannondale on it. Sooo much fun, and still rides beautifully. Size 58, with pedals, cages, computer mount = 7.45 kgs!
I’m now on an Izalco Max disc, but damn, the old bike = 👌
Oh, and don’t feel bad about old mate getting away from you on the descents, he looks to have you by quite a few kilos, and gravity is definitely the friend of us heavier blokes! 😜
Insightful. 99% rider and 1% bike. On a climbing intensive course this choice of bike makes sense. And you know how to descend so you didn't need disc brakes and didn't have to grappel with the dreaded disc brake rubbing issues
You speak truth Chris, I am proudly riding my 2016 Cervelo R5 and 2017 S5 and can't see myself "upgrading" for some time to come
That’s peak rim brake I reckon … 2017 👍🏽
I have the 2013 model (pictured) today in 2023 its still the best weight/performance bike out there. Still gets lots of compliments. Love everything about my SSE.
My God. I’ve got a six13 evo and I’ve been saying exactly this for years. I’ve got a couple of more modern bikes, but the 2012 ish bikes are more comfortable, far lighter, and I think more elegant as well. Don’t get me started on my 2011 Cannondale Scalpel versus 15kg 2022 mountain bikes... Great video, thanks for the content.
Great work Chris keep them coming that was a very interesting comparison. Without the BS and marketing coming from the manufacturers.
Thanks Tony
It’s amazing how an alloy rim brake road bike at 7.x kg can weight as much a brand new full carbon disk brake road bike. I’m never buying a carbon road bike if it’s heavier than my old alloy bike.
Heck, my alloy rockhopper m4 was lighter than a lot of today's road and gravel bikes even carbon gravel bikes, and that had suspension fat rubber and discs it was 9.5 kilos with mid-range components if i had gone high-end, sid forks (or dt swiss carbon forks) xtr gearing, carbon finishing kit it, the wheels were already super light stans alpines with hope hubs dt rev spokes 1300grams. It would have easily been 8kg there or there abouts. That's what my mason definition 2 weighs now.
The way you were just spinning up those climbs was impressive Chris. This is a great review calling it as it is. Top marks
Preach! Miller dropping truth bombs.
As another commenter noted, replacing the too-skinny tires at too-high pressures revolutionized his bike, and I bet that making your bars 2cm narrower would get you more aero advantage than all the other bits.
1000000% agree. Get me on some tubeless wheels on this rig and we have a game changer
I was wondering about that. I just got back into road cycling after a 11 year hiatus.Dusted off my old 2007 Madone which I ordered as a project One. I remember weighing this bike built before pedals and it was under 16 pounds with SRAM Force. I live in Florida now and it’s pancake flat. I’m running Dura Ace wheels with Scandium rims from probably 2010 or so. It only took me a few months to get up to speed. Just picked up some 2010 Zipp 404 carbon clinchers which have the Dimples that were all the rage back in the day. Can’t wait to run them Saturday.
A customer recently brought in a 2012ish carbon Fuji. Carbon everything, rim brakes, carbon wheels. The mechanics all raved about it. It weighed 6.7 Kilos. The customer raved about the modern bikes we showed him. He was blown away by the braking, gearing, shifting, etc. (I think the biggest difference he 'felt' was the 28mm Tubeless tires) Anyway, perspective.
Fairly similar story here. Some of our staff purchased mid range aero bikes and they didn't like the weight.
We once had a steel LeMond in that blew our minds. The thing weighed slightly heavier than their new carbon aero bikes.
One of our staff also has a steel 90s Bianchi MTB that weighs less than any mountain bike we have felt so far. Though that would feel hugely different to today's mountain bikes.
The nicer carbon rim brake bikes we get in usually come in at sub 7kg.
I'd say modern road bikes just feel more luxurious to ride due to tires, braking and gearing.
I have a 2012 Litespeed C1R bike (a frame reputed at the time to have very good aero qualities) with 10spd DI2, rim brakes and aluminum clincher wheels with terrible aero cross-section. I am working on an upgrade to some carbon 58mm wheels and I expect this change to make a real difference in the bike.
I have a Specialized Tarmac SL2 from 2013 and it is superb. I was taking back by how good it feels compared with my current bike.
Thanks for sharing
Thank you for bringing the truth, not the bs road disc propaganda.
This is what excites me so much about owning a 105 rim brake Venge. Only upgrade has been zipp 30 course wheels, and those alone blew my mind. To upgrade to 38mm carbon wheels, and light drivetrain, its gonna be plenty fast
Loved this video Chris!! My favorite bike to ride here in Colorado is my Fuji two.1 SL with lower grade carbon that i pulled off my Ultegra 6800 Di2 and full spec'd it to SRAM Force 22 mechanical, light bottle cages (15g), seatpost (136g), and wheels that are probably 1400g if i'm lucky - so basically room to loose more and the bars and stem too. Point i'm making is the one you made, it just jumps forward on those 9% and above grades.
I'm still riding my 2008 roadbike with much joy, yes, I plan to buy something new (instead of n+1'ing like I did since then), but I don't expect a performance increase. Thanks for this!
2008 bike too ( FUJI SL-1)
Absolutely right! I have similar thoughts. My 2007 bike weighs 7.5 kg. That is super lightweight for modern bikes. So I think I’ll stick to my old bike and maybe get some upgrades.
Would love to know what upgrades you are putting on the bike.
@@ChrisMillerCycling Two things:
1. Wheel set from Leeze CC 35 1250g or CC 58 1500g
2. 12 speed group set from Campa or SRAM. Currently I have 2x10 Centaur/ Chorus
I am very happy with rim brakes and don’t want to change to disc.
Unfortunately it’s almost impossible at the moment to buy this stuff and get it delivered (at least in Germany).
I have a 2017 version of that bike with disc brakes. And it's pretty light for a 63 cm being 7.3 kilos. It's the best riding bike that I've ever had. And yes, arrow only works when you're going really fast. This bike claims like a dream.
100% on point!
I have an old (2011) Cervelo S2 that came with full Red and 1600g aluminum wheels 6.9kg. The wheels are probably the slowest bit given that they're only 25mm tall climbing wheel. If I could get something like Hunt 50 UD to drop another 200g, tubeless...but most importantly much more aero.
The biggest issue is the very limited tire clearance....
My wife bought me a new Bianchi a couple of years back, and it was 7.9kg out of the box...It's gotten a little lighter, but not by much. The frameset is well over 2lb heavier alone. However, it does clear 32c tires which for many of the sh^t Belgian roads that I regularly ride.....a much better and more comfortable ride over the Cervelo.
I have a 2012 Scott CR1 Team bike and I absolutely love it. It's super comfortable and works fine for Watts Valley Road.
Watts Valley Road … going to miss that section or road … stunning.
2012 S Works Roubaix here (had for 2 years) for just over 10% of the price of a new one and its superb. Keep your new stuff.
My brother has that bike (hi mod). Those upgrades would be sick but an issue he's running into now is that modern wheels with rims wider than about 24.5 external don't fit between the seat stays. The clearances are super tight
I agree. I have a 2015 SuperSix and the clearance in the rear triangle is minimal. Biggest tires I can run are 25 and only some brands. It’s the bikes biggest flaw.
Interesting that when you're talking about the 8kg bikes, the shot shows "at 7.5kg .. it's average weight for the latest aero bikes" - not sure how much 200g over the Cannodale is going to make on the hills, even at 7%+. My 2012 rim-brake Domane is still my go-to on the road, absolutely love it, but I wouldn't choose it over a newer hydraulic disc-braked, wider tired bike which weighed a couple of Cliff bars more myself. Choices are always good though.
I just found your channel and am catching up -- these videos are so timely. I am currently riding a 2012 Specialized Ruby. I'm grateful for this video because I was about to buy a new Orbea in 2023. But I'm happy with my old Ruby! I actually don't feel a huge difference between the Orbea and the Ruby -- mostly the disc brakes. And that's because I average only 14 mph on rides! Awesome info.)
Thanks for the comment Glenda. Glad you enjoyed the video and enjoy the Ruby.
My 2012 Fuji Altamira Di2 is still a fantastic ride. Total weight on the M/L setup is 15.2lbs with pedals and cages. By comparison, my buddy's 2022 Trek Emonda (their "climbing" bike LOL) is 19.3lbs with pedals and cages. Crazy how even the lightest Emonda is still a little heavier than my Fuji but costs $10k+! My Fuji cost me $2200 back in 2012 and it's still going strong. Added some deep aero wheels and latex tubes for the fast days and the weight is still below 15.5lbs. I will say though, my 2022 Trek Checkpoint is WAAAAAY more comfortable on the long rides. That's because of the built in compliance and 40mm tires of course. The Fuji is rigid as heck and tiring on chipseal roads. But when I go on my climbing routes, the Fuji is absolutely my choice.
Oh I remember that Fuji, a mate of mine in Ireland had one. Would be very interesting to compare it to a modern ‘climbing’ bike … i think it would stack up very well. Thanks for the comment, it would be great if you also subscribed 👍🏼
@@ChrisMillerCycling would hold up quite well IMO. The Altamira was a Grand Tour winning bike afterall....2011 Vuelta under Juan Jose Cobo. And that Vuelta had a TON of fearsome climbs including the Angliru. Oh, and I subscribed :) Really enjoy the content your putting out there. Keep up the good work!
Personally I think your version of Supersix Evo frame is the coolest looking, ever. Timeless.
And about your claims, I agree over 90%. But some of us spend money on new bikes without such rational thinking. We buy because they look cool. Still feels less guilty than burning cash elsewhere, like at the pub every weekend nights
Hey CP, thanks for the comment. Now I wish it was my supersix, unfortunately it was just a loan.
As for ‘new bike syndrome’ … I 100% agree with you. I can’t help the pull of the nice new shiny thing as well
finally someone reminding us that weight does matter, also like the way you point out most people won't be able to make full use of an aero bike
Thanks Marcel, glad you enjoyed the video
Cool project, love that modern carbon/vintage Super Six Evo.
I still ride My pristine 2010 Cervelo RS (Endurance Geometry)
While shopping for an endurance bike, tested Specialized Roubaix, Cannondale Synapse and was trying to test ride a Look 765 but were hard to find
Anyway Cervelo had packed so many performance features in the R5 and R3 that Cervelo Test Team rode this exact frames at Spring Classics and Grand Tours.
I’ve only added Michelin Pro Race tires on Ican Aero on DT Swiss 240 hubs and Premium Carbon Swiss stop brake pads and just a these changes have ompletely woke up more speed and comfort.
Sucapaz black and white stars bar tape and Zipp carbon White/black letters water bottle cages and Light grey Elite water bottles.
I just Save My alloy Zipp 101 for wet/winter rides.
Love to add a premium mechanical Groupset but Shimano has screwed the consumers who still love mechanical grupos.
The best part of this entire video is: I have THAT bike! Last yr I added a 3T carbon flat arrow handlebar, elec DI2, Dura-Ace cassette, Sworks carbon power seat, Reynolds 66 rims, new tubeless Contin 5000 tires…tires make more a difference than most suspect. Shes lite n nibble.
Backward Hat Dylan had a coach on that talked about using computer modeling on an aero bike. He would add weight in the model, and it didn't really affect the speed, till he added over 10lbs to the bike. But, just like you said, the only advantage to aero is over 25mph, or going downhill. Froome on a TT race, computed the advantages of aero going downhill vs weight going up hill. The aero bike did MONSTER power on the downhill. He won that TT, I think it was Tour Of Switzerland.
Froome rode 2016 hill tt in the TDF . On a tt bike with a disc wheel, he smashed it beating Tom dumoulin for the win. Absolutely awesome viewing, remember seeing a spectator throwing a water bottle across the road at him, luckily it missed his wheel. Think it was stage 18 🔥🔥🔥🔥😁💪
You haven't lost the plot and I love your rants.
bike looks magnificent! blingy,not just in 2012 but up to the present day and beyond 😎
Thanks for this insightful video. The marketing push is certainly strong in the bike industry. I have the 2018 model Supersix Evo with rim brakes. I've upgraded to tubeless wheels and tires, Di2 and a one piece aero handlebar and stem (just like your shopping list). This thing rides and climbs beautifully and I don't plan to sell it anytime soon (even though my peers have bought into the marketing and have moved to disk brakes, aero frames, hookless wheels). Your video really helps to put things in perspective and reminds everyone how beautifully bikes from the previous generation rode, before the cycling industry took a wild turn. Either way, modern or classic, it's mostly the person's fitness that matters the most. Awesome content.
Thanks Omar, great comment and even better bike. Thanks for the feedback.
No question that bike compares with current models. I rode that same frame in a 51/52 forget how they size them and it was an amazing bike. I now ride an Sworks Tarmac 2018 and it's still a rocket. I ride a size 52 and I believe that has a lot to do with the performance of these frames. They larger they get, the sloppier they get.
Love it Chris, you mentioned my Izalco Max - Happy. With your rolling resistance comments. I have 50/60mm carbon wheels and usually I have to be on the brakes when in someone's slip stream down fast descents, but following a Cervelo R5 the other day no brakes required, meaning his bike is quicker above 50kmph at least😎
Such a good comment about the ”save X seconds at 40+kph” metric that is used as a selling point for current high end bikes. Seriously, amongst us mere mortal who the hell is cruising along at that speed? 😂 Bikes from the era of this Cannondale were AND ARE Epic.
I have a 2016 SuperSix Evo(rim) which weighs 7kg and a 2020 Evo HiMod (disc) that is 7.3kg. Both are Ultegra mechanical.
The older Evo just feels a little more lively and loves hills but the newer one is a little quicker on the flat.
I will sell my old Evo over my cold dead body…
In the U.K., the gen2 SuperSix bikes are selling for above 2016 RRP in the used market… let that sink in…
Great Video Chris, been awaiting this one and totally agree. So many GCN videos try and almost skim over the fact the Watts saved are tested at 45kph 😂😂
I ride a 2019 rim brake tcr, put some bora wto 45s on it along with di2 and speed sl70 aero bars I never felt like I'm at a disadvantage in my club on the fast group rides definitely not from the bike anyway just my legs at times 😂😂
As a bonus, I like the old classic look of this era of bikes. Some brands do it well but in my opinion the dropped seat stays and overall modern look of newer bikes are unaesthetic by comparison.
My current bike is a 2012 SSE Ultimate. All stock, sram red 10 speed, mavic tubs. Its a nice ride.
Yep. The point about frame aero effects mattering mostly at high speeds is spot on. And if YOU notice that modern frames are not a huge advantage then slow guys like me are getting nothing from it.
Agree, finally a good vid about the subject! Hope you’re able to perform the actual upgrades. Here a 6.9 kg sl6 s-works tarmac da 9150 rb with deep enve wheels, maybe I’m stupid.
Hey simon. Very much agree and at the same time … very jealous of your tarmac
@@ChrisMillerCycling thnx Chris! Difficult to find one, but if you do it’s probably dead cheap 😏
this is realy great to hear! I unfortunately had my bike stolen couple weeks back and there are loads of gems on eBay that I've been tempted with but always a bit reluctant and thinking maybe I should just save up and get something more modern. But I'm also missing Summer here in the UK and want to get on the road ASAP!
Very interesting Chris. What is tha largest actual tyre width you think you could safely fit into that frame on a modern wheelset 19-21mm inner dimension. I would still be riding my 2010 TCR advance SL a bike that for Cav and many more was a TDF stage winning frameset, IF, I could of got larger than a 23mm tyre comfortably on the rear.
I borrowed the Mrs Giant TCR 2016 advanced pro (7kg) last week after a few years on disc road bikes- it was so much nicer to ride. Lighter, comfier - no 12mm bolt through the front end making the ride harsh ! & climbing was a revelation (like you mention)
If you live in a dry country it’s a no brainier….
I have almost the exact bike in that video and recently refurbished it with wireless gears and deep wheels, where I agree with most of what you’ve said the bike lacks the tyre clearance of modern bikes which makes a huge difference, it’s a stiff fast bike but on 25mm tyre (most you can fit) it’s certainly not comfortable and can be very jarring over poor surfaces.
Very interesting video. Thanks. I'm still rockin' my 2012 Cervelo R5, 10 speed Sram red, and 23mm tyres on mavic exalith SLRs. Time to put it away again now for another winter. Can't see myself ever selling it!
My climbing bike is a 2012 CAAD 10 with 5700 shifters, SLK crank and unbranded shallow carbon tubular wheels at 1050 grams. Whole bike is under 16 lbs. Chainrings 50/36....cogs 12-30(10 speed). Perfect for those 13-22% grade kickers.
Even as a disc brake aero bike rider I definitely can agree with this video, most people just aren't going fast enough for the gains from the TT rig style modern aero bikes. However you do feel like a rocket on the local fast flat chaingangs or races though where 40kmh average is definitely on the menu.
Couldn't agree more
Spot on! and you can get that frame for about $600 to $800 used Here in Vietnam. One of my bikes is a 2008 Raleigh Carbon team frame 970 grams and a Easton fork at 320 grams, It has an aero cut out for the rear tire. I think it is Just as for as fast as the new bikes at 7.3 kg it started out as 10 speed full DA I'm soon to add one peice aero bars and clean up the front a little With R8000 group set. New bikes are over sold With BS.
Sick! Do you have any small ls left?
I consider myself lucky to have the 2011 s6evo with 50mm hed wheels, aero bar and sram red Etape group and its a bike I would never sell. I also have an sl7 tarmac and the ‘dale is a gnats pube off it on the flats and kills it on the slopes. Spot on as per usual Chris.
Sounds like a great bike
I'm with you bro ,The only new bike I got recently was a gravel ,Still have my 2013 red and black Wilier Cento 1 SR and see no reason to buy anything new yet in a pure road bike
My dream bike ATM is a supersix hi mod, the 18’ model, with deep dish rims & clean, wireless shifting ❤️
The antiposeur build, really dig it!
I love my SSE Hi-Mod. Size 60 with aero wheels and still just under 7kg
I agree with nearly everything!
However, even your regular Joe likes to do bunch rides and go fast for a little bit at the end coming into town. A bit of aero advantage there makes the fun bit even funner.
And yes a 6.8kg bike will 100% be faster than an 8kg bike on a hill, but if you’re a heavy guy (80kg+) then I can’t imagine you’d notice the difference.
Great video! Finally we’re back to a video a day between you and Jesse.
you don't need aero when you in a bunch ride. aero advantage is negated in a group, only when you're solo.
I've read that 85% of the combined drag (rider and bike) is the rider, the slight aero differences between bikes is only a fraction of the 15% of total that the bike contributes. So for the bigger guy, 80kg+ and I'm one of them, the fractional aero gains from the bike are negated by my larger drag values.
I believe that only the pro level riders who are able to hold the perfect aero position and are so slim that they almost cut through the air will get benefit from and aero bike. Similarly a bigger guy may not notice the lightness of a lightweight bike as much as a smaller guy but they will feel the greater responsiveness of the lighter bike.
So, what I think is that only pros will gain maximum benefit from either and aero or lightweight bike but the normal person will feel more of the gains from the lightweight bike as it's seen at lower speeds and doesn't require a rider position on the bike that's uncomfortable for the normal person.
@@asiantrick24 sometimes you hit the front of the bunch. Can’t suck wheels all day
Nice job Chris! I really enjoyed your video.
I’ve just replaced my 2013 model bike with a new model and yep it’s (a little) heavier. Times on climbs seem to be very similar, but where I really have gained is wider tyres, much more comfort and compliance and a huge increase in confidence on descents and braking.
Yeah, for me this is where the gains have been made, the ability to run wider tires makes riding so much more enjoyable and not get stones jammed under the brake calipers which has ruined races for me that I spent months preparing for. I still have a couple of rim brake bikes, one of which I had the rear brake bridge raised so I could run wider tires. Sold my bikes that would only fit 25mm.
Can't you fit 28mm even on this 2013 SuperSix? Is 28mm not wide enough?
@@tuber6382 I can’t even understand what you’re trying to say mate. Plus you’re replying to a 2 year old comment.
I think the big think is the price/performance ratio has gone out of wack. A few years ago you buy a bike at the UCI limit with say Ultegra the would be the same as the top level and it would be well under £3k. Now you get 'climbing' bikes at £5k with lower spec carbon that are well above the UCI limit e.g Emonda SL that look lovely but are quite weighty for a climbing bike. Aero wise I have an ex-sunweb team R5 rim frame/forks with 38cm bars, a Tririg front brake the narrower Elite bottles & Swissside wheels that holds its speed really well on the flat & is much lighter than the equivalent disk brake bike that matches it out the pack aerowise.
keep up the good work
Really enjoyed this vid Chris. I used to own a Cannondale Cad4 back in the day and road the paints off that bike, probably did about 900-1100 kms a mth back than. It was a great bike and I wish I’d kept it. But a Cannondale collector type bike enthusiast offered what I thought was decent money for it and so I let it go. Big mistake and I should have kept it for nostalgic reasons if nothing else. I’ve since had a Cervelo S5 and I’m currently on an S-Works Tarmac SL 6. Sure it’s a nice bike and I prefer it over my old S5, but deep down, my old Cannondale was still a joy to ride. Although an aluminium frame, the Cannondale was stiff, responsive and really pretty comfortable. Most Sundays we’d be in the saddle between 3-4hrs. Yep miss the old bike.
Hey thanks for your great content and sorry to hear Nero Continental is coming to an end. Look forward to more vlogs from you 🚴🏼🤙
Hey David. Thanks for the comment. Really interesting feedback
@@ChrisMillerCycling the feedback is only commensurate to the content presented. You know the old saying, garbage in, garbage out. Hey I’ve never risen to the levels you’ve risen to and rode or even the standard you ride. Hell, I know Jack *#%^ really about cycling, but I love it. I’m actually deciding if I flick my S-Works for a BMC SLR One Team or one. The S-Works is a great bike, but hey every other rider has one and I’d have bought a BMC before the S-Works if I could have scored on in my size. But there were no 51cm bikes available at the time and so the S-Works it was.
War h this space. Go well hey and go push more pedals. 🤪
It doesn't need to be at and avg of 40 km/h, if I spend 40% of my ride at over 40 km/h, this is where I'm making my saving. If I'm going into a 25km/h headwind and averaging 30 km/h that's my 40 km/h. Aero definitely makes a difference. The sucky thing is how expensive drivetrains are.
Oh my god Christopher. How on earth could you possibly have braked without disc brakes? 😱 Glad you’re still alive.
Isn’t it ironic that the manufacturers all say lighter, stiffer, faster, yet bikes from 20yrs ago were just as light and, arguably, stiffer. I remember my Trek 5200OCLV, the aluminum Orbea I rode in 2001-2003…great bikes. And they cost 5-7k less. I have 3 now: System Six, Madone SLR7, and a Factor One. Only the Factor feels close to what I used to ride. The other two are sluggish as hell due to their weight.
Heck, I ride a 2012 Felt F5. Brand new condition and plenty for me. And got it used at 8 years old with 200 miles, all original, for $800! Same bike now $6,000 to $8,000. Save your money.
Felt F5 … nice
Yes they were better and the aero “advantages” of a modern bike are so small that what’s more important is your rim depth. Put deep rims on a climbing bike and it’s better than an aerodynamic bike frame.
A note on your mate passing you on the downhills. Try that test again with both on the same wheelset.
Aero is marketing bs. Van der poel would spank everyone on the supersix evo no different than the aeroad.
Finally someone says it!
I have a 2016 Bh Ultralight evo with Dura ace weighing at 14.5 Lbs. (6.57 kg). I have a 2010 Bh G5 with Dura ace weighing in at 13.5 lbs (6.12 kg.) Great for New England climbs. I cant believe how heavy some of these $12,000 Aero bikes are.
the human on board the bike is still the overwhelming determinant of performance. but we cant discount the confidence new bike etc can have on rider psyche
the greatest advantage of a bike like this over modern-day bikes is the external cable routing.
Thank you for this video. Picking up one just like that one this saterday 😮
My 2015 emonda is 6,4kg without pedals. With 80mm wheels 🛞
I always wanted that bike in that paint scheme
Been riding and racing a 2010 Fuji SL comp last 12 months. Dragged out of retirement. to have some fun, stiffest bike I have ever ridden (and I have ridden a few including aero race bikes and new and old alloy). Unfortunately it is an entry level. frame, with lower grade carbon. (might explain stiffness) and alloy steerer. tube, so not the lightest. 7.5kg with mix of SRAM. Red/Force 10speed groupset. and 55mm carbon wheels with Powertap hub. Don't really see any disadvantages racing at my level on a 12 year. old bike, haven't raced in the rain this time yet. From experience to keep up with Tyler at speed, deeper wheels, better tyres and latex (or tpu) inner tubes. I was gaining. on and passing riders on far more modern race bikes on descents in the crits with downhill sections.
The top spec was one of the last great rim brake hyperlight bikes. Same carbon technology as the Aethos with smooth inside tubes and easy to build up a sub 5.5kg reliable weapon.
@@eto2352 For what I bought. the 2010 SL comp in C4, I could of got a 2009 SL women specific C10 frame with Ultegra. But I like SRAM
I still ride my 2012, CAAD 10 almost daily. Great bike. 17.5 lb.
They were better, imho. That's what I raced on and what I love, so it is subjective, but rim brakes is what I went with when I bought a new bike recently. Don't like disc brakes and don't want them.
Hard to disagree with you Eric
Duration 2020, amidst the pandemic, I stumbled on a 61cm Cervelo RCA frameset (1,060gms complete) for a song, & did the same. I can't ride like a pro uphill, but downhill aero gains can benefit us all. Seems you've jumped back inside the marketing box recently?