Someone pointed me to this video. I see you genuinely did try to do a “controlled” test. Denitrifying bacteria, or anaerobic bacteria live in anoxic environments. Try using seeded media that you don’t expose the anaerobic bacteria to oxygen while “rinsing it off” …looking forward to your next “controlled” test. Would also help if you actually show the correct transfer of that seeded media to your test tank. Good luck!
What a surprise! Huge fan! So the problem with oxygen is our aquarium water is already oxygenated. That oxygenated water has to flow over any biomedia for it to be able to do anything. In that sense it's being exposed to oxygen constantly as long as our filters are running. The reason I rinsed it with tank water before adding it was to try to eliminate any new sources of nitrates being added from potential decomposing organics already stuck to the Matrix. I hear your suggestions though and will transfer media directly from a canister to the test tank without rinsing it in an updated video. Thanks for the suggestions
@@underwaterjungle I had been a long-time believer that it was impossible to grow anaerobic bacteria in a powerful canister that provides a heavy flow of highly oxygenated water. I mean, that's what the FX6 is designed for. BUT, That's the reason why Matrix is designed exactly the way that it is. It's a very porous material. Because of the high flow rate of oxygenated water our canisters supply, the media needs deep pours for anaerobic bacteria to grow INSIDE of it where there is very little flow and very little oxygen. Thats why it takes 4-6 months for it to grow. You also need a lot of it to see any significant amount of nitrate reduction. Your test sample size of Matrix is most likely not enough. But regardless, the moment you take that media out of a closed system and expose it to the wide open air, you're most likely killing off any potential anaerobic bacterial growth you may have had. For this reason, is why I went an entire 4 months without removing the internal baskets in my canisters.
@@KaveManAquatics agreed. These results are inconclusive at best. It’s highly likely that any potential bacteria on the Matrix was dead for the entirety of this experiment and/or insufficient.
@@KaveManAquatics Kev, this guy doesn't give his name, his credentials if he even has any and seems to be another guy going after Seachem (since he claims to not be the guy on that site I just emailed you about.) I didn't really listen to this guy blathering on about his experiment, I trust people like you who love the hobby and want others to love it too.
After reading the other reviews, I thought I will give it a try and in the end De*nitrate really works, brings down my 60 gal overstocked freshwater tank from 80ppm nitrate to a constant 10ppm, however it takes a lot more effort, brain and money on top of the product itself to create an ideal environment for it. And I think it's worth it. First you need a few things: 1. A media reactor cylindrical and clear 2. Liquid flow meter 3. Flow control valve 4. A pre-filter 5. An after-filter 6. A submersible aquarium pump 7. Shut-off valves 8. Stainless/plastic hose clamps and strong cable ties 9. Clear aquarium vinyl tubing 10. 50 micron filter pads Then you connect the submersible pump to a shut-off valve, through a pre-filter, then through media reactor, out through the liquid flow meter, through the flow control valve, then finally an after-filter which is a 50 micron polishing pad tied to the end of the tube submerged in the aquarium. You want the flow rate to be at around 35gph consistently. To do that, you will have to adjust the flow control valve once in a while as the pre-filter catches more and more debris while it slows down the flow little by little. A few things need to be taken into consideration: 1. You need a pump that has a flow rate of at least three times of 35gph just to handle the media reactor and pre-filter, then add roughly additional 100gph for 50 micron polishing pad because it slows down the flow significantly. Finally another 50gph as the flow rate gets slowed down little by little in the long run while it catches more and more debris. 2. You need to use your liquid flow meter to read your current flow rate easily and adjust accordingly. 3. Do not cheap out on a pre-filter, make it big, in diameter, not in length. The bigger diameter it has, the longer it takes to slow down the flow significantly hence the longer time periods it provides until maintenance. 4. Put a 50 micron filtering pad inside your pre-filter. This will provide longer working time for your media reactor before it gets clogged up by debris which then it would require a complete rinsing of the media itself. 5. It can be pain in the ass when it comes to the tubing size. The best case scenario would be one size fits all when your pump, your pre-filter, your media reactor, your flow meter all require the same tube size, if not, then you would need multi-hose adapter which adds to the work and cost. 6. Always use clamps in every joint to prevent potential leak. Use plastic cable ties or hose clamps instead of metal clamps for underwater applications. 7. Add shut-off valve at the ins and outs of your pre-filter and media reactor for easy maintenance. 8. After every time you rinse your media, add tiny bit of sugar at the bottom and middle of your reactor as the anaerobic bacteria need a carbon source to thrive.
Step 8 is the entire reason that works. It has nothing to do with Matrix. Most people who claim Matrix works claim it promotes anaerobic denitrification. You aren't doing anaerobic denitrification with this technique. You're doing assimilatory denitrification. Matrix has absolutely nothing to do with this. It also doesn't actually remove nitrates. It assimilates them and you still have to actually remove them regularly with cleaning. It only removes them temporarily from the water column.
I've been thinking about this, and maybe the reason it takes 6 months+ for the media to become anaerobic for most people is because during that time, the filter media pores become clogged with detritus, naturally lowering the flow and allowing anaerobic bacteria to colonise. When you rinsed it, you likely cleared the detritus from the pores and exposed the anaerobic bacteria. If you still have Matrix in your filters, it may be worth trying another experiment where you don't rinse it off.
@@porcu12345 I've had Matrix in two of my tanks canister filters averaging about 10 years for each tank. Never really washed the stones in all that time. 10 years, easily long enough. The stones are welll worn in and brown. Filled with lots of bacteria and gunk. I can catergorically say Matrix does and has done nothing to reduce the nitrates in and of itself. Having said that, Matrix is good bio media for ammonia and nitrites. Works well. It has never removed nitrates in my tanks. Best to get it as good bio media but don't buy it because you've been led to believe it will magically remove all nitrates from your tank. It won't.
This is an honest video which is very rare to be found on youtube these days. You have taken all the things into consideration and performed this test, now that you have done a honest video people close to the brand will come hitting at you, never mind them. I appreciate all ypur hard work you have put in and keep doing more such honest videos.
I’m thinking you would need a lot more of it to affect the nitrates, in order to create the required anoxic conditions within the filter. It wouldn’t work in such a small filter. That said, I think most people chasing zero nitrates in order to avoid water changes would be disappointed if they actually obtained it. The worst algae and dinoflagellate outbreaks I’ve had were in tanks with zero measurable nitrates.
You can't create anaerobic conditions inside an aerobic filter. It's just not physically possible. You can't magically remove the oxygen from your water to denitrify and then magically add it back so it doesn't kill everything. You could add an entire ton of Matrix and it would do the exact same thing: nothing.
@@underwaterjungle even in a canister filter there will be very low flow areas . Water will always find the easiest channel through the media leaving most of it with very low flow going through it
@@anthonyarkwright7644 Maybe I'll redo the experiment someday and use a canister filter. The hob I used would still have the same properties of high flow and low flow areas but just much less media.
It's not really necessary. The inability of nitrates to be removed without water changes or plants from a normal aquarium setup is well established fact so it makes a control somewhat pointless.
Great question. No. The house temp is typically 26-27C even at night because it's a reinforced concrete construction and it retains heat well. I didn't measure the temperature of the water in the test aquarium. My main tank is about the same but does have a heater to keep it above 25C. The temperature difference would have likely been insignificantly small.
I’ve tried them all been in hobby for awhile , what works for me is pothos plants and purigen helps some, best cure is water changes or lots of plants. Thanks for the video,
This is very similar to my own experience but it's also where proponents will claim you have to wait 4+ months for the bacteria to grow. That's why I used established 8+ month old Matrix in this experiment. It still resulted zero nitrate reduction. I would love for it to actually work but unfortunately the data suggests otherwise.
@@rajadey4919 No biomedia will remove nitrates. It just isn't possible in an aquarium with fish because there's too much oxygen. I have moved on to just sponges now. They're easier to clean, much cheaper, and lighter. I just keep the stock Biomaster media. It works great but it won't remove nitrates either.
what I like is true and honest no profit made not promoting any company if it works it works if it don't work it don't work thank you for your video as I have in the past I ran Pond Matrix on my 75 gallon Overstock mbuna tank running t w o big canister filters Eheim 2217 and a sicce whale 550 ran it for months and did not see after multiple testing no reduction in nitrates the truth is the truth if it reduces it it reduces it if it does not it does not thank you for your video but it is great Seachem Matrix for removing ammonia and nitrite
i think seachem have the media called denitrate tailor make to remove no3 can you test it out ? for me both matrix and matrix pond can help reduce no3 but not so much and thats denitrate job also can you make a test for brightwell filter media too ?
It seems to work better with fish as between leftover food and fish poop the pores get clogged, then creating anaerobic condition in the clogged pores for anerobic bacteria to grow. If the pores don't get gunked up, then there will be minimal if any anaerobic conditions.
This matrix was taken from an established tank many months old with plenty of fish and plant waste. The truth is it simply doesn't work as advertised. I'm sure you can contrive a scenario where there's super low oxygen and get some anaerobic bacteria to grow but those are real world situations or how anyone actually uses this product. Also, if you did have a situation with low enough oxygen you really wouldn't need the matrix at all.
First anaerobic bacteria takes about 8 months to a year to grow and something seachem doesn’t tell people the bio media (matrix) can never be exposed to air it must stay under water indefinitely for it to work. Next you need about twice as much matrix than you had for it to work. And yes it will work when used in the right filter.
There's other contrived ways to do it too like removing all oxygen from the water. In which case any media will do. You're basically saying Matrix doesn't work if you clean out your filter. That's not a realistic scenario for almost any aquarist. I plan to redo this experiment eventually using a whole canister filter filled with Matrix just running indefinitely. Ultimately denitrifying bacteria doesn't really denitrify until oxygen levels are lower than 1ppm. Even if you had low oxygen levels in your canister it isn't likely to get that low ever without the rest of the water being deadly low in oxygen. But I'll redo the experiment and we'll see what happens.
Yes it does reduce nitrates after the bacteria has grown for 6 Months. But it reduce nitrates on a relatively low level. It is great to use it against nitrites and ammonium. For Aquascapes it is a nice filter material because of low reduction of nitrates.
@@underwaterjungle the bacteria which reduce nitrates needs up to 6 Months to grow. Did you even read my commentary?! And did you read the instruction manual of Seachem Matrix?! Calm down a bit. Your experiment is incomplete, I‘m sorry! 🤦🏻♀️
I have not read any of the Seachem matrix literature. The Biohome instructions and the Pond guru videos specify to not use a Ammonia/Nitrite binding dechlorinater (like PRIME), the instructions recommended to use API tap water conditioner. Moving media from one filter to another is also a potential issue. I moved media trays from one cannister filter to another and had a nitrite spike, if you indeed had anaerobic bacteria going ,the move along with the rinse could have killed it .I like your test, but I don't think it comes close to closing the book on this subject for me. Although I keep African cichlids, according to the biohome literature I would need a hot tub full of media to get the Nitrate cycled out.
The reality is that you can't magically create anaerobic conditions inside of any aerobic filter. If such a thing was even possible or efficient enough to even work then the waste treatment centers around the globe would be using pumice stones to treat human waste and safely denitrify it because it would be WAY easier. Unfortunately that's just wishful thinking and deceptive marketing. The reality is there is no scenario where running oxic water over a basket full of pumice stones and have it remove nitrates. If it did actually work, wouldn't SeaChem be selling their Matrix to waste treatment facilities?
This video brings up a good point that manufacturers should clearly indicate for example in this instance to which mechanism the claimed nitrate removal is based on and if it takes a certain time like for example for a certain type of microbes to get established for the mechanism it should also be clearly indicated. However science is not based on single events/tests no matter how well they are carried out. This test is a good example of that. It is a single event with single event results. When one can give a number for repeatabily etc then things start to have scientific value.
I suspect the conditions in which denitrification might occur for this product are so contrived, if it's even possible at all, that they don't really represent the reality in how people use it in their filters. They likely don't provide details on how to reproduce their denitrification claims because either they don't really know or it's all marketing lies. I would love to have a room full of test tanks, adding different DNA sequenced denitrifying bacteria to different tanks to ensure a population has at least been seeded, oxygen meters to measure the dissolved oxygen levels in each tank, different filter types, etc. and we can really nail this down properly. Funding and time are constraints unfortunately. There is a ton of published research on denitrification specifically for waste treatment and it's pretty well established that it can only happen efficiently at dissolved oxygen levels lower than what is considered safe for our aquarium fauna. I may present some of this in a future video.
For the denitrifying bacteria to work,you need to have a slower water flow in the filter because those bacteria requires low oxygen environment. If the matrix has been kept in a high water flow environment, I doubt there is any denitrifying bacteria in it.
There are many different types of denitrifying bacteria but the thing they all have in common is they only start taking oxygen from NO3 when there is a lack of dissolved oxygen because it's more energy intensive to have to remove it from NO3 than just getting it directly. There are plenty of denitrifying bacteria that can survive in aerobic conditions and those are the only ones which will ever be able to do any sort of denitrification inside an aquarium with living inhabitants. The problem is they only start denitrifying when dissolved oxygen levels are so low that your fish are going to be gasping for air or dead. If you have plants or even algae, they'll likely prevent dissolve oxygen levels from ever getting low enough. You would need very little surface agitation, no plants, and a fish species that can survive low oxygen levels. Yes, I'm sure you can contrive a scenario and make it happen but it isn't really how most people keep their aquariums.
Nice to see such great experiment. But let me ask one simple question. When we are speaking about Nitrogen (N), I'm not sure that any kind of established filter-media (full of bacteria) will remove and decompose Seachem Nitrogen into Nitrate and Nitrite. Simply because it's not pure organic Nitrogen. Just read about it, what formula they used. I'm thinking that Seachem Nitrogen is fertilizer used by plants. Only organic waste would be used in nitrogen cycle in order to get Nitrite and Nitrate, but not Seachem Nitrogen. I think I read about it somewhere... Can you try to add a water with organic Nitrogen, Nitrate and Nitrites and try to remove it with established filter-media? However I assume most of industrial products are there just for make us to buy it, and thanks again for this nice experiment.
It does. My 30L aqua tank , nature style. I use totally 2L matrix. 1L in slow flow additional filter. Nitrate in my tank is zero. I just figured it when i regconised that my plants stop growing up ( with strong co2, and new substrate). I tested and i were shock by the result because I just use matrix , not denitrate. I accidently set up anaerobic barteria cycle in my tank. Now i have to keep fertilizing 3ml seachem Nitrogen everyday to keep NO3 in my tank 15 ppm to feed my plants. Wasted money 😅
@@underwaterjungle Actually, i have 2 tanks, similarly. Both using matrix, and have the same fertilizer doses. Thats why i know the problem come from the "matrix slow flow system". Now, i have to add 2ml / day seachem nitrogen to keep it stable. 1ml and 3ml is a big difference. You can search and try to set up slow flow filter system. It would be an interrested experience.
I assume you maybe the same person who has that Aquarium Science blog site. I find myself reading those articles quite a bit, as I agree that the hobby has lots of pseudo science used to pedal lots of snake oil. Subbed
IMO you should have run a number of replicates. Using tap water, which may have had intrinsic nitrogen content, was probably a mistake. Nitrification occurs in the water mains as a result of chloramines breaking down. RO water would have been better, and using a measured weight of either KNO3 or NaNO3 as the N source so as to eliminate any errors that may have been made by the manufacturer during the bottling process. Some of the claims made on labels should be viewed with suspicion. As someone has already stated, the depth of the filter medium may not have been deep enough to promote anaerobic or hypoxic conditions. You didn't subtract the volume of your extended needle from the final volume of N source. A large confounding factor is that denitrifying bacteria are notoriously difficult to grow, and when they do, they grow very slowly, and their population density is affected by other microbes in the substrate/biofilm. They also require a carbon source for their metabolic processes. We should regard reports of both success and failure of the product in controlling nitrates as an indication of the variability that exists between aquarists' tank conditions. And, as we know, manufacturers are prone to making extravagant claims to sell their products. However, as an empirical exercise this was useful.
The truth is you can't have anerobic conditions inside an aerobic filter. Its just contrary to how they even work. Lets put it this way: if pumice stones were actually able to produce anaerobic conditions while sitting inside aerobic water the waste treatment plants across the world would be using those stones extensively. The fact of the mater is this is all marketing. Yes, you can probably contrive an unrealistic scenario that isn't representative of how anyone keeps an aquarium (much less one with living creatures in it) and probably get anerobic bacteria to grow on the Matrix and do some denitrification but you also won't have anything else alive in your aquarium or you have some other filtration system (ie. anoxic filtration)
do anoxicfiltration next! I went and bought an undergravel filter to do an experiment. my hypothesis is that the reason people see less nitrate in their tanks after installing the plenum or bcb is because kitty litter as a negative charge that removes and holds onto the ammonium in the water column. however once the capacity has been reached people will begin to see a rise in nitrate again which is what most people claim happens. so does it lower nitrates? yes but it's not because of denitrification.
Biohome, Matrix & Ehiem Substrat Pro are pretty similar. The only real difference is Substrat Pro doesn't claim to remove nitrates whereas the other two do. But some users claim Substrat Pro does help with nitrate reduction. I don't worry about it. Water changes take care of nitrates. Substrat Pro lasts forever. If you're worried about the pores clogging over time you can use Hydrogen Peroxide to clean it. Not all at once of course! That goes for all three not just Substrat Pro. I see a lot online about Biohome degenerating over time. I've no idea if it's true as I've never used it. I just want a decent biological media to maximise aerobic bacteria.
I'm not sure many hobbyists are using the media in the proper way. If you take an anerobic media, or plastic army men for that matter and simply put them in a high flow environment, canister filter, HOB etc. the flow rate is simply too fast, (too oxygenated) to be effective as a nitrate reducer. Ideally that stuff should be buried under a thick layer of aerobic cover media or the like. Anaerobic conditions within a aquaria are almost always associated with a no flow / severely constricted environment. Your nice, new, clean, clear HOB only used the media for what you eventually gave it credit for.
Yes, you are absolutely correct. There is no way to create anoxic conditions within the water column or any aquarium filter and still have enough dissolved oxygen in your water to keep your fish alive. Having substrate deep enough is literally the only way to get it. That being said, you probably aren't exchanging nitrates quickly enough with your oxygenated water column for denitrification to be effective. You'll be reducing them from the substrate perhaps but that's literally the opposite of what any planted tank hobbiest wants. Thanks for your comment. I think my next experiment will be trying to force a low oxygen environment to see if I can't contrive a situation and force it to work. I think a buried Matrix version with could be great. Thanks for the suggestion.
@@underwaterjungle thanks for the experiment. A correction, there are other ways to accomplish anoxic condition, through a BCB or a slow moving plenum, see Dr. Kevin Novak's channel for more deep information.
Even in a canister filter water will find the easiest way through the media therefore there will always be very low flow areas around that main channel . I think the point your missing is is that the no oxygen zone isn’t in your filter but within the media itself .
Matrix is a good general media, but it wont help in nitrates, at least to me. Weekly water change is the only way for me to keep big cichlid without plants.
Matrix is great for aerobic bacteria colonies to grow but in most sump or cannister filters their is simply too much oxygenated water for anerobic bacteria to grow. That's where deep sand beds and plants come into play.
Yes, this is entirely correct. It really is that simple. There is no way that oxygen is going to magically disappear from a filter if it's working properly. Deep substrates can definitely provide conditions for anaerobic bacteria though.
The zero oxygen environment happens inside the actual media not inside the filter itself not sure why people don’t understand this . It can also take 12 months for anaerobic bacteria to form . The media also has to be kept under water continuously to achieve this if it is exposed to air for any length of time it will die quickly
If you hear what he says about the time between tests and says he'll give it another week when he comes back after the second week that it been running 10 days so is this true?
The media was established media that was many months old. The fact that this established media couldn't remove even the smallest amount of nitrates over the entire course of the test sort of makes a few days here or there between filming pretty much irrelevant. The whole test was conducted over the course of about two months I believe and not a single difference was ever recorded between the measurements.
Yes of course but there are a large number of hobbyists that swear by it's denitrification properties. Seachem themselves market Matrix as being able to 'manage nitrates' which clearly it has zero effect on.
I had it in my sump for about 3 mths my Nitrates were about 20 ppm had 2 do a water change to keep nitrates at bay put in in a canister filter running about 30 gph within 2 mths my nitrates are reading 5ppm or lower maybe cause im forcing water thru the media im not claiming 2 be a scientist but been in the hobby over 30 years that being said it worked in that manner for me didnt do anything else at all besides change filter pads
I'd wager changing filter pads had more effect than than the Matrix did. There was probably a nitrate source built up in the pads so changing them caused your nitrates to drop. There's quite a few extra variables in a live system that cause people to incorrectly conclude it was Matrix. This is why I tried a more controlled setting. I will rerun this test eventually with a whole canister of Matrix and see if I can get better results but I'm skeptical.
I had high hopes for matrix but after 4 months in my fluval 307 canister I'm sorry to report that you are right, it doesn't remove any nitrate whatsoever, guess back to water changes 😞
Unfortunately this is the truth. If you read the other comments then surely you're doing it wrong. Have you tried eliminating all dissolved oxygen in your water? 🤣 There's literally no way to have healthy oxygenated water and at the same time have dissolved oxygen levels so low that denitrification can happen efficiently enough to measure. Waste water treatment research is very extensive on this subject and matches with the results of this experiment.
How much are you using ? You really need to fill both media trays up to the very top otherwise it will not reduce your nitrate only keep it at the same level .
@@underwaterjungle It should be interesting because in a canister filter it has no light exposed to it at all and it can hold a lot more media but also I'm sure there is a difference in the oxygen levels because it's not exposed to air in the same way. It's essentially pressurized in a way. I don't know if that reduces it much or not but I know high pressure areas like high altitude have less oxygen in the water. So maybe it reduces in oxygen in the filter and oxygenates as it comes out. Maybe that has an affect on how anaerobic bacteria grows in the center of the matrix in a canister filter or maybe it has more power passing through it to push it out of the center so that it can have an affect on the water passing through it.
All excellent points! Higher pressures inside a canister should actually allow an increase in dissolved oxygen levels rather than a decrease. Higher altitude have less oxygen because atmospheric pressure is lower. That being said, there so many different variables between a canister and a HOB that it certainly justifies further investigation. Hopefully I'll be ready in the next few months.
You forgot to do something that all fish owners do(change water weekly) it the biggest thing that make media work. If you had done that your test would have been better. I been keeping fish in my 150 tank and use that media plus other, I have 20 fish and feed 5 different food everyday (lots of waste and poop) I hope that you know that it take a lot of work to keep 7 different fish in a tank and keep them all happy.
Changing the water makes the test entirely meaningless then. Of course the nitrates will go down when you remove them with a water change. That's not the purpose of this video. This video shows that Matrix has zero effect on nitrates at all.
I agree with you about Matrix Not reducing NO3. " in the average commonly used methods. " I never expected it to .. however. I still use it because of the huge surface area for aerobic bacteria. I think your approach is a bit cynical. also I believe the "size and volume of your experiment" is what proves exactly what you wanted to prove .. if you "densely packed" like "8 or 10 liters" of Matrix in a (dark - slow flowing - low to no oxygen filter system) I'll bet you could prove that under the specific right conditions. it would reduce nitrate .. yup. it's intentionally misleading advertising .. no big deal.. it's still a good product. obviously. your using it in your other aquariums right ?? peace out ..
Yes, it still has benefits beyond the false nitrate reduction claims. Mostly I like it over sponges because it's more flexible to seed new filters. With a sponge I'd have to have the exact same filter or I'd have to cut the sponge so seeding a new filter for a new setup is a pain then. With Matrix (or any other rocks for that matter) it's just a matter of grabbing handful of rocks and it'll fit in whatever filter I want to seed. Makes it super convenient and flexible.
if I can see the flow rate of the water and really look nice ! it mean alot of Oxygen there ... slowing the process and help to kill nitrifying bacteria
Hmm great content will say matrix is not special its simply pumice stone more expensive next to get a FULL cycle ending in nitrate reduction will take anaerobic to form it low oxygen states this can take several months and this is why most simply water change i personally mature media over 6 to 10 months so i can get a FULL cycle then seed new filters i have tested this my tap water is steady at 50ppm this is the legal UK limit and after my mature media has been run through for a while it settles at 10ppm and use plants to sort that now biomedia should never really be washed off as that will stop or hinder the full cycle now i always keep a sponge filter running along side a mechanical filter this also helps seed ,,,great stuff worth watching
Yes, you are correct but it makes no sense either. I prefer to keep my fish alive with a healthy level of dissolved oxygen. Of course if you remove all oxygen from your water you'll be able to create anaerobic conditions. You can't have healthy oxygenated water for your fish and also have anaerobic conditions in your water column at the same time. They're mutually exclusive. Also, you don't need Matrix all if you're trying to kill everything but denitrifying bacteria by depleting your water of oxygen. The entire premise of the test is that Seachem claims it controls nitrates and it's assumed by most hobbiests that the claim implies that it will work in a typical aerobic filter. It clearly doesn't. Yes, if you contrive a scenario with no dissolved oxygen in your water you can have denitrifying bacteria grow and remove nitrates. It's not a real world scenario for any aquarium though.
Good question. I did not explicitly test denitrate. It's my understanding that it's still pumice stone just smaller rocks. Seachem themselves claim you need very slow flow for it to work; so essentially a contrived environment that wouldn't really exist in any normal aquarium setting.
Just spent $200 to load up my canister with Matrix. 👀 Perfectly controlled test. Hard to argue against it, but maybe the organics/ chemicals in the Seachem bottle are different from organics left from fish waste.
It's still an ok biomedia even if it doesn't remove nitrates as claimed. I'm not a chemist or biologist so I can't speak on whether or not there are different forms of nitrates without doing more research. This is a great question though. Thanks for suggesting it. I have a followup experiment video planned that I'll start shooting at the end of this week. I'll use tank water from another tank that I'm not dosing with liquid fertilizers to see if it reacts any differently. Great suggestion
His test isn't a controlled experiment. He has fish in it that he feeds, lights, does water changes, etc for months. There's no conclusions one can draw from a 'test' like that. Also, I might add the Matrix I used is twice as old as his and should be much more established. My experiment was a controlled experiment using established Matrix and a quantifiable amount of nitrates. No other nitrates were added and no nitrates were removed by the Matrix. Kaveman's test, other people's anecdotal evidence, and all the pseudoscience out there is why I made this controlled experiment. The results stand unless you can prove my test is flawed.
After reading the other reviews, I thought I will give it a try and in the end De*nitrate really works, brings down my 60 gal overstocked freshwater tank from 80ppm nitrate to a constant 10ppm, however it takes a lot more effort, brain and money on top of the product itself to create an ideal environment for it. And I think it's worth it. First you need a few things: 1. A media reactor cylindrical and clear 2. Liquid flow meter 3. Flow control valve 4. A pre-filter 5. An after-filter 6. A submersible aquarium pump 7. Shut-off valves 8. Stainless/plastic hose clamps and strong cable ties 9. Clear aquarium vinyl tubing 10. 50 micron filter pads Then you connect the submersible pump to a shut-off valve, through a pre-filter, then through media reactor, out through the liquid flow meter, through the flow control valve, then finally an after-filter which is a 50 micron polishing pad tied to the end of the tube submerged in the aquarium. You want the flow rate to be at around 35gph consistently. To do that, you will have to adjust the flow control valve once in a while as the pre-filter catches more and more debris while it slows down the flow little by little. A few things need to be taken into consideration: 1. You need a pump that has a flow rate of at least three times of 35gph just to handle the media reactor and pre-filter, then add roughly additional 100gph for 50 micron polishing pad because it slows down the flow significantly. Finally another 50gph as the flow rate gets slowed down little by little in the long run while it catches more and more debris. 2. You need to use your liquid flow meter to read your current flow rate easily and adjust accordingly. 3. Do not cheap out on a pre-filter, make it big, in diameter, not in length. The bigger diameter it has, the longer it takes to slow down the flow significantly hence the longer time periods it provides until maintenance. 4. Put a 50 micron filtering pad inside your pre-filter. This will provide longer working time for your media reactor before it gets clogged up by debris which then it would require a complete rinsing of the media itself. 5. It can be pain in the ass when it comes to the tubing size. The best case scenario would be one size fits all when your pump, your pre-filter, your media reactor, your flow meter all require the same tube size, if not, then you would need multi-hose adapter which adds to the work and cost. 6. Always use clamps in every joint to prevent potential leak. Use plastic cable ties or hose clamps instead of metal clamps for underwater applications. 7. Add shut-off valve at the ins and outs of your pre-filter and media reactor for easy maintenance. 8. After every time you rinse your media, add tiny bit of sugar at the bottom and middle of your reactor as the anaerobic bacteria need a carbon source to thrive. 9. Last but not least, your will need an alkaline buffer and aquarium minerals because once water change becomes less and less often, maintaining a healthy PH and vital minerals level becomes more and more important.
Maybe because you didn’t have livestock in the aquarium you were testing the bacteria died off. I thought all beneficial bacteria need a ammonia source to survive ?
There are many different types of nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria. They all consume different things. Some convert ammonia to nitrite. Others convert nitrite to nitrates. The bacteria we're concerned with here in this experiment are the ones that specifically consume nitrates and convert it into nitogen gas. This is a large group of bacteria but almost all of them only consume nitrates when there is no oxygen in the water. They consume the nitrate because it contains oxygen atoms in the molecule (NO3) and they typically only live in environments with extremely low or no oxygen (supposedly inside the rock).
I've had Seachem matrix in my saltwater aquarium for 1.5 years and it has not removed any nitrates. Hmmm... *sarcastic*..maybe the bacteria is still growing? I have 4L of it for a 100L aquarium. Just use it for the purpose of any biomedia and not for the purpose of removing nitrates because it's not going to do any of that!
@@underwaterjungle When I first added it into the water, I saw tiny micro bubbles coming out of it. So indeed it is porous. But to be honest as it's only effective for removing ammonia and nitrite, it's providing the exact same fuction as pretty much all biomedia. So I really don't know how "effective" it is actually. Like will there be a difference if i buy a really inexpensive biomedia online compared to this? i.e those plastic balls and ceramic media. The only real positive thing I can say as a hobbist is that this media doesn't breakdown unlike some which would crumble. Then again there are lots of inexpensive media that doesn't break down also. The rest of it's claimed benefits we can only trust as we can't really prove. I feel that in today's mordern world, you can't really just trust everything you read anymore including those from name brands and expensive items. You just have to do your own checks and take their claims with a pinch of salt as everything is a form of marketing. Sales vs Belief vs Truth. Thanks for reading, I just had to rant... Thanks for your video! Purigen didn't do anything for my saltwater tank also haha...
@@youronlycow I'm always down for a good rant! I entirely agree with what you said. It's really no more effective than simple sponges. What I do like is it's nice grabbing a handful of established media and seeing a new filter/tank with it to jump start things but beyond that..meh. I bought it specifically to reduce nitrates in a tank I was having problems with and it completely failed. I doubt I'd ever buy more. I have had similar failures with purigen to reduce nitrates but purigen is great at removing tannins however.
This is a controlled test y’all! Stop comparing your tanks full of fishes and plants! That makes your Aquarium have a “nature setting” which over times controls the chemicals in your tanks! He is only doing nitrates! And by adding 5.0 ppm he is trying to see if matrix will remove the nitrate without natures interruption. Unfortunately, matrix didn’t show results here! And his matrix has already been established! He explained this!… anyways! I got what I needed from this video! I also saw kevs video and wondered I don’t do water changed every week… mine would show different readings and I have plants.. no control in my tank. No need to experiment and get frustrated with matrix after seeing this.
Yeah I messed that part up. I'm pretty sure the results will still be the same though but who knows. I'll probably redo the whole experiment again one day.
The attempt is earnest, but this is a faulty experiment from the get go. Unless you can run a PCR / somehow quantify the amount of potential denitrifying bacteria, it would be irresponsible to draw hard conclusions from this.
It's definitely not a publishable result but it does go quite a bit further than previous video reviews on the denitrification potential of the product. I eliminate many of the uncontrolled variables we see in many other review videos so we can really drill into the denitrification claims better. I would love to have a hundred test tanks all setup and all explicitly pre-seeded with different types of denitrifying bacteria but I suspect the cost of doing that would be prohibitive. You're right in that I can't make any hard conclusions in a purely academic sense without at least pre-seeding a tank with an identifiable type of denitrifying bacteria.
Good test. In the saltwater world we use Marine Pure bio media to try the same, but it should be in a low flow area of the sump to allow the anarerobic bateria to develope. Long story short, it does not do enough reduction, so I went back to using carbon dosing and algae scrubbers to keep my NO3 in check. My unproven theory is that you would need large quantities to grow the necessary amount of bacteria to make a difference, as on a real reef in the ocean. Thanks.
I agree. I think the conditions in which it might happen, if it's even possible, are likely quite contrived and entirely detached from the reality of how anyone keeps an aquarium.
I tried reading your blog post where you "prove" deep sand beds and media don't reduce nitrates, but you lost me when you dismissed the Science that was contradicting your viewpoint as "government funded lies".
I have never claimed a deep substrate doesn't work to remove nitrates. I only claim (prove) Matrix inside an aerobic filter does nothing to remove nitrates. I think a deep substrate experiment would be super interesting and actually have been thinking about that very thing this week. I don't think Matrix itself has anything to do with that though. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence suggesting it might work with just soil and a sand cap. I don't think I could pull it off successfully in that tiny 2.5g test tank though so I need to move a few things around to free up a 10g tank to experiment with. I was thinking a nice layer of normal soil capped with silica sand and a simple HOB filter with sponges in it. I'm a bit busy with life recently so I haven't had time to get it setup but soon. Also, that isn't my blog you're reading. That's someone else entirely. I'm assuming you're talking about AquariumScience.org ? There is some great information on that site for sure but you're entirely right that it is biased in places.
There is a lot of "voodoo" in the aquarium world, lots of sponsored reviews, every aquarist has a different opinion on each matter. There is not much friendly books/sources that are based on science and can explain processes that are running inside aquarium. Of course, this is not a full scientific experiment but this channel can move in good direction. I'm waiting for the next video :)
I don't agree with your findings. I run matrix in all of my filters and sumps. With that said over time I have seen much improved nitrate levels in my tanks. So my question back to you is you said you use it in all your filters why if you don't like it why are you using it?
Sorry but this is a science experiment so it doesn't matter if you agree with it or not. The data is what it is. If you could point out a problem with how I conducted the experiment I will address it. I would love for it to actually work somehow but unfortunately it doesn't. As for why I use it, I bought Matrix for my tanks precisely for the denitrification claims which I've proven are false. I still like it as a bio media though because it makes seeding new tanks extremely easy. I just take some old bio media from an established tank and move it into a new filter and poof it's ready to go. That being said, there's nothing actually special about it over any other media rocks or balls. They offer the same convenience. I haven't conducted tests on Matrix versus other biomedia when it comes to how quickly each converts ammonia to nitrate but this site goes into more depth specifically with that in mind: aquariumscience.org/index.php/7-2-12-matrix/
@@underwaterjungle well my friend we can just agree to disagree. I just know for me over time I went from water changes weekly to by weekly as my nitrate levels were not getting as high. Especially true in my large tank full of big fish that create a lot of waste. So we will just agree to disagree. I think that's fair
Anecdotal evidence like this is one main reason I did this test. We hear many people claim it works and many people claim it doesn't. My personal experience is that it doesn't work but I wanted to do this test to prove one way or another if it actually works. My test is pretty simple to reproduce and it's only 5ppm of nitrates so it's quite odd that it can't remove just that tiny little bit of nitrate. The problem with testing on our actual aquariums is that we feed at variable rates, we adjust lighting, we add/remove fish, we have algae and plants which both definitely will consume nitrates, and a whole slew of other uncontrollable variables. It's hard to draw accurate conclusions when there's too many variables like that. It's also a possibility, though I suspect unlikely, that there's some conditions in which denitrifying bacteria will actually grow inside Matrix and actually work to eliminate nitrates but those conditions just aren't present in any of my filters. Aquariums are extremely complex ecosystems so I wouldn't definitively rule out that possibility.
@@TheFittedRockStar comple5e waste of time. You need something with a lot of surface area for bacteria to grow on. Plastic pot scrubbers do not provide this.
Not a control experience. But I'll tell you one thing not a real wold experience I used matrix in a tank 80 gallon cichlid heavy stocked tank and definitely worth the cost now that being said also used lava bbq rock and took a year instead of 6 months if your not feeding the tank your not getting anaerobic that MATRIX Builds on so heads up seachem does work and ill do the challenge any day hit me up seachem and yourself I'll start a new tank and use seachem products and will gautee prove you wrong or the tank will be yours sound fair ?
If you watched the video you will see that I clearly state this is 8 month old Matrix that had been running in a canister filter in another aquarium for that amount of time. Also, there simply is no way to have denitrification inside aerobic water. If that were possible the waste treatment plants across the globe would be buying Matrix by the ton. The reality is this is just misleading advertising. Yes, you can create a contrived anaerobic condition in an aquarium with no oxygen and yes denitrifying bacteria may grow on the matrix and actually remove nitrates but it also means you kill all your fish.
I wouldnt call that a controlled test, I run Matrix in all my huge setups, have since Matrix practically cane out. Nitrates are always Zero. Nitrate reduction is based on several things amount of water, amount of Nitrates, jus like BB you will never have more than needed, in this case the less Matrix you have the less amount it will reduce. Instead of calling this a science experiments which it's far from, you should tag it either Matrix didn't work for me, or 17 minutes of time a viewer will never get back
this was using 8 month old media. it doesn't work under any normal scenario. you could concoct a low flow, low oxygen setup but there wouldn't be enough oxygen in the water to actually keep your fish alive.
You start with the misconception that it will remove nitrates from the start. Same as with other filter media that provide areas for anaerobic denitrifying bacteria, it needs time to actually eastablish a sufficient bacteria population. This will take months, not weeks. It highly depends on flow rate, oxygen levels and media volume, too. This is not a resin or chemical adsorbtion process. Please make sure to do a little research prior to conducting an experiment and potentially misleading viewers, thank you!
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Someone pointed me to this video. I see you genuinely did try to do a “controlled” test. Denitrifying bacteria, or anaerobic bacteria live in anoxic environments. Try using seeded media that you don’t expose the anaerobic bacteria to oxygen while “rinsing it off” …looking forward to your next “controlled” test. Would also help if you actually show the correct transfer of that seeded media to your test tank. Good luck!
What a surprise! Huge fan! So the problem with oxygen is our aquarium water is already oxygenated. That oxygenated water has to flow over any biomedia for it to be able to do anything. In that sense it's being exposed to oxygen constantly as long as our filters are running. The reason I rinsed it with tank water before adding it was to try to eliminate any new sources of nitrates being added from potential decomposing organics already stuck to the Matrix. I hear your suggestions though and will transfer media directly from a canister to the test tank without rinsing it in an updated video. Thanks for the suggestions
His media was in his tank 8 months
@@underwaterjungle I had been a long-time believer that it was impossible to grow anaerobic bacteria in a powerful canister that provides a heavy flow of highly oxygenated water. I mean, that's what the FX6 is designed for.
BUT, That's the reason why Matrix is designed exactly the way that it is. It's a very porous material. Because of the high flow rate of oxygenated water our canisters supply, the media needs deep pours for anaerobic bacteria to grow INSIDE of it where there is very little flow and very little oxygen. Thats why it takes 4-6 months for it to grow.
You also need a lot of it to see any significant amount of nitrate reduction. Your test sample size of Matrix is most likely not enough. But regardless, the moment you take that media out of a closed system and expose it to the wide open air, you're most likely killing off any potential anaerobic bacterial growth you may have had. For this reason, is why I went an entire 4 months without removing the internal baskets in my canisters.
@@KaveManAquatics agreed. These results are inconclusive at best. It’s highly likely that any potential bacteria on the Matrix was dead for the entirety of this experiment and/or insufficient.
@@KaveManAquatics Kev, this guy doesn't give his name, his credentials if he even has any and seems to be another guy going after Seachem (since he claims to not be the guy on that site I just emailed you about.) I didn't really listen to this guy blathering on about his experiment, I trust people like you who love the hobby and want others to love it too.
After reading the other reviews, I thought I will give it a try and in the end De*nitrate really works, brings down my 60 gal overstocked freshwater tank from 80ppm nitrate to a constant 10ppm, however it takes a lot more effort, brain and money on top of the product itself to create an ideal environment for it. And I think it's worth it.
First you need a few things:
1. A media reactor cylindrical and clear
2. Liquid flow meter
3. Flow control valve
4. A pre-filter
5. An after-filter
6. A submersible aquarium pump
7. Shut-off valves
8. Stainless/plastic hose clamps and strong cable ties
9. Clear aquarium vinyl tubing
10. 50 micron filter pads
Then you connect the submersible pump to a shut-off valve, through a pre-filter, then through media reactor, out through the liquid flow meter, through the flow control valve, then finally an after-filter which is a 50 micron polishing pad tied to the end of the tube submerged in the aquarium. You want the flow rate to be at around 35gph consistently. To do that, you will have to adjust the flow control valve once in a while as the pre-filter catches more and more debris while it slows down the flow little by little.
A few things need to be taken into consideration:
1. You need a pump that has a flow rate of at least three times of 35gph just to handle the media reactor and pre-filter, then add roughly additional 100gph for 50 micron polishing pad because it slows down the flow significantly. Finally another 50gph as the flow rate gets slowed down little by little in the long run while it catches more and more debris.
2. You need to use your liquid flow meter to read your current flow rate easily and adjust accordingly.
3. Do not cheap out on a pre-filter, make it big, in diameter, not in length. The bigger diameter it has, the longer it takes to slow down the flow significantly hence the longer time periods it provides until maintenance.
4. Put a 50 micron filtering pad inside your pre-filter. This will provide longer working time for your media reactor before it gets clogged up by debris which then it would require a complete rinsing of the media itself.
5. It can be pain in the ass when it comes to the tubing size. The best case scenario would be one size fits all when your pump, your pre-filter, your media reactor, your flow meter all require the same tube size, if not, then you would need multi-hose adapter which adds to the work and cost.
6. Always use clamps in every joint to prevent potential leak. Use plastic cable ties or hose clamps instead of metal clamps for underwater applications.
7. Add shut-off valve at the ins and outs of your pre-filter and media reactor for easy maintenance.
8. After every time you rinse your media, add tiny bit of sugar at the bottom and middle of your reactor as the anaerobic bacteria need a carbon source to thrive.
Step 8 is the entire reason that works. It has nothing to do with Matrix. Most people who claim Matrix works claim it promotes anaerobic denitrification. You aren't doing anaerobic denitrification with this technique. You're doing assimilatory denitrification. Matrix has absolutely nothing to do with this. It also doesn't actually remove nitrates. It assimilates them and you still have to actually remove them regularly with cleaning. It only removes them temporarily from the water column.
Great job.
do you have picture or vedio showing your idea with numbers in and out the system.
I've been thinking about this, and maybe the reason it takes 6 months+ for the media to become anaerobic for most people is because during that time, the filter media pores become clogged with detritus, naturally lowering the flow and allowing anaerobic bacteria to colonise. When you rinsed it, you likely cleared the detritus from the pores and exposed the anaerobic bacteria. If you still have Matrix in your filters, it may be worth trying another experiment where you don't rinse it off.
If the pores are clogged there will be no water exchange with the insides of the stones and as such it won't be able to do anything.
@@underwaterjungle They don't need to be fully clogged, just enough that flow is restricted.
@@porcu12345 I've had Matrix in two of my tanks canister filters averaging about 10 years for each tank. Never really washed the stones in all that time. 10 years, easily long enough. The stones are welll worn in and brown. Filled with lots of bacteria and gunk.
I can catergorically say Matrix does and has done nothing to reduce the nitrates in and of itself. Having said that, Matrix is good bio media for ammonia and nitrites. Works well. It has never removed nitrates in my tanks. Best to get it as good bio media but don't buy it because you've been led to believe it will magically remove all nitrates from your tank. It won't.
I agree with you. It has been 2 weeks in my filter and my nitrates are still very high. Thete was no change.
This is an honest video which is very rare to be found on youtube these days. You have taken all the things into consideration and performed this test, now that you have done a honest video people close to the brand will come hitting at you, never mind them. I appreciate all ypur hard work you have put in and keep doing more such honest videos.
I’m thinking you would need a lot more of it to affect the nitrates, in order to create the required anoxic conditions within the filter. It wouldn’t work in such a small filter.
That said, I think most people chasing zero nitrates in order to avoid water changes would be disappointed if they actually obtained it. The worst algae and dinoflagellate outbreaks I’ve had were in tanks with zero measurable nitrates.
You can't create anaerobic conditions inside an aerobic filter. It's just not physically possible. You can't magically remove the oxygen from your water to denitrify and then magically add it back so it doesn't kill everything. You could add an entire ton of Matrix and it would do the exact same thing: nothing.
@@underwaterjungle the low oxyens happen inside the the matrix
@@underwaterjungle even in a canister filter there will be very low flow areas . Water will always find the easiest channel through the media leaving most of it with very low flow going through it
@@anthonyarkwright7644 Maybe I'll redo the experiment someday and use a canister filter. The hob I used would still have the same properties of high flow and low flow areas but just much less media.
What about a second aquarium without matrix for control? So during the time of the experiment we could see what happened with and without matrix?
It's not really necessary. The inability of nitrates to be removed without water changes or plants from a normal aquarium setup is well established fact so it makes a control somewhat pointless.
thank you for doing the test, much appreciated.
Thank you for doing this experiment and honest review.
Thanks for your comment!
Did you control for temperature? Are your main tanks the same temperature as the one in the experiment? Thanks!
Great question. No. The house temp is typically 26-27C even at night because it's a reinforced concrete construction and it retains heat well. I didn't measure the temperature of the water in the test aquarium. My main tank is about the same but does have a heater to keep it above 25C. The temperature difference would have likely been insignificantly small.
In your experiment, what is the carbon source for the denitrification reaction?
i just subscribed to your channel,sorry i hadnt seen it before,love your honest laid back attitude us Irish people like Thanks.Bill in Ireland
I’ve tried them all been in hobby for awhile , what works for me is pothos plants and purigen helps some, best cure is water changes or lots of plants. Thanks for the video,
Just from my experience the best kit I have found for nitrate test is the salifert no2 it has been more accurate for me and is easier to read results
ive got 2 kgs in an fx6 of matrix in an overstocked african cichlid tank and have not seen any reduction in nitrates at all
This is very similar to my own experience but it's also where proponents will claim you have to wait 4+ months for the bacteria to grow. That's why I used established 8+ month old Matrix in this experiment. It still resulted zero nitrate reduction. I would love for it to actually work but unfortunately the data suggests otherwise.
You don’t have enough bacteria this isn’t magic
@@underwaterjungleIf all this expensive biomedia don't yield any positive results ..then what will...pot scrubbers?
@@rajadey4919 No biomedia will remove nitrates. It just isn't possible in an aquarium with fish because there's too much oxygen. I have moved on to just sponges now. They're easier to clean, much cheaper, and lighter. I just keep the stock Biomaster media. It works great but it won't remove nitrates either.
what I like is true and honest no profit made not promoting any company if it works it works if it don't work it don't work thank you for your video as I have in the past I ran Pond Matrix on my 75 gallon Overstock mbuna tank running t w o big canister filters Eheim 2217 and a sicce whale 550 ran it for months and did not see after multiple testing no reduction in nitrates the truth is the truth if it reduces it it reduces it if it does not it does not thank you for your video but it is great Seachem Matrix for removing ammonia and nitrite
i think seachem have the media called denitrate tailor make to remove no3 can you test it out ? for me both matrix and matrix pond can help reduce no3 but not so much and thats denitrate job also can you make a test for brightwell filter media too ?
Also test with biohome to remove nitrate or not?
They don't sell biohome where I live now unfortunately.
It seems to work better with fish as between leftover food and fish poop the pores get clogged, then creating anaerobic condition in the clogged pores for anerobic bacteria to grow. If the pores don't get gunked up, then there will be minimal if any anaerobic conditions.
This matrix was taken from an established tank many months old with plenty of fish and plant waste. The truth is it simply doesn't work as advertised. I'm sure you can contrive a scenario where there's super low oxygen and get some anaerobic bacteria to grow but those are real world situations or how anyone actually uses this product. Also, if you did have a situation with low enough oxygen you really wouldn't need the matrix at all.
@@underwaterjungle Ahh, interesting. That's a shame.
Thank you for your honest review. I subscribed and will look forward to your future videos.
Thanks for the sub!
First anaerobic bacteria takes about 8 months to a year to grow and something seachem doesn’t tell people the bio media (matrix) can never be exposed to air it must stay under water indefinitely for it to work. Next you need about twice as much matrix than you had for it to work. And yes it will work when used in the right filter.
There's other contrived ways to do it too like removing all oxygen from the water. In which case any media will do. You're basically saying Matrix doesn't work if you clean out your filter. That's not a realistic scenario for almost any aquarist. I plan to redo this experiment eventually using a whole canister filter filled with Matrix just running indefinitely. Ultimately denitrifying bacteria doesn't really denitrify until oxygen levels are lower than 1ppm. Even if you had low oxygen levels in your canister it isn't likely to get that low ever without the rest of the water being deadly low in oxygen. But I'll redo the experiment and we'll see what happens.
Thanks mate for the video really helped alot.
Yes it does reduce nitrates after the bacteria has grown for 6 Months. But it reduce nitrates on a relatively low level. It is great to use it against nitrites and ammonium. For Aquascapes it is a nice filter material because of low reduction of nitrates.
Did you even watch the video? I show it does nothing against nitrates.
@@underwaterjungle the bacteria which reduce nitrates needs up to 6 Months to grow. Did you even read my commentary?! And did you read the instruction manual of Seachem Matrix?! Calm down a bit. Your experiment is incomplete, I‘m sorry! 🤦🏻♀️
I have not read any of the Seachem matrix literature. The Biohome instructions and the Pond guru videos specify to not use a Ammonia/Nitrite binding dechlorinater (like PRIME), the instructions recommended to use API tap water conditioner. Moving media from one filter to another is also a potential issue. I moved media trays from one cannister filter to another and had a nitrite spike, if you indeed had anaerobic bacteria going ,the move along with the rinse could have killed it .I like your test, but I don't think it comes close to closing the book on this subject for me. Although I keep African cichlids, according to the biohome literature I would need a hot tub full of media to get the Nitrate cycled out.
The reality is that you can't magically create anaerobic conditions inside of any aerobic filter. If such a thing was even possible or efficient enough to even work then the waste treatment centers around the globe would be using pumice stones to treat human waste and safely denitrify it because it would be WAY easier. Unfortunately that's just wishful thinking and deceptive marketing. The reality is there is no scenario where running oxic water over a basket full of pumice stones and have it remove nitrates. If it did actually work, wouldn't SeaChem be selling their Matrix to waste treatment facilities?
Great educational content here...
shout outs from Australia! :D
I put in aquarium the treatment from swimming blade and is coloring my matrix i kill him or is still good to use?
Glad I found your video and already subscribed to your channel!
Glad you found some value out of it. Thanks for the sub!
This video brings up a good point that manufacturers should clearly indicate for example in this instance to which mechanism the claimed nitrate removal is based on and if it takes a certain time like for example for a certain type of microbes to get established for the mechanism it should also be clearly indicated.
However science is not based on single events/tests no matter how well they are carried out. This test is a good example of that. It is a single event with single event results. When one can give a number for repeatabily etc then things start to have scientific value.
Many thanks for the very interesting video/test tho! 👏
I suspect the conditions in which denitrification might occur for this product are so contrived, if it's even possible at all, that they don't really represent the reality in how people use it in their filters. They likely don't provide details on how to reproduce their denitrification claims because either they don't really know or it's all marketing lies.
I would love to have a room full of test tanks, adding different DNA sequenced denitrifying bacteria to different tanks to ensure a population has at least been seeded, oxygen meters to measure the dissolved oxygen levels in each tank, different filter types, etc. and we can really nail this down properly. Funding and time are constraints unfortunately. There is a ton of published research on denitrification specifically for waste treatment and it's pretty well established that it can only happen efficiently at dissolved oxygen levels lower than what is considered safe for our aquarium fauna. I may present some of this in a future video.
For the denitrifying bacteria to work,you need to have a slower water flow in the filter because those bacteria requires low oxygen environment. If the matrix has been kept in a high water flow environment, I doubt there is any denitrifying bacteria in it.
There are many different types of denitrifying bacteria but the thing they all have in common is they only start taking oxygen from NO3 when there is a lack of dissolved oxygen because it's more energy intensive to have to remove it from NO3 than just getting it directly. There are plenty of denitrifying bacteria that can survive in aerobic conditions and those are the only ones which will ever be able to do any sort of denitrification inside an aquarium with living inhabitants. The problem is they only start denitrifying when dissolved oxygen levels are so low that your fish are going to be gasping for air or dead. If you have plants or even algae, they'll likely prevent dissolve oxygen levels from ever getting low enough. You would need very little surface agitation, no plants, and a fish species that can survive low oxygen levels. Yes, I'm sure you can contrive a scenario and make it happen but it isn't really how most people keep their aquariums.
@@underwaterjungle absolutely correct
Nice to see such great experiment.
But let me ask one simple question. When we are speaking about Nitrogen (N), I'm not sure that any kind of established filter-media (full of bacteria) will remove and decompose Seachem Nitrogen into Nitrate and Nitrite. Simply because it's not pure organic Nitrogen. Just read about it, what formula they used.
I'm thinking that Seachem Nitrogen is fertilizer used by plants.
Only organic waste would be used in nitrogen cycle in order to get Nitrite and Nitrate, but not Seachem Nitrogen. I think I read about it somewhere...
Can you try to add a water with organic Nitrogen, Nitrate and Nitrites and try to remove it with established filter-media?
However I assume most of industrial products are there just for make us to buy it, and thanks again for this nice experiment.
It does. My 30L aqua tank , nature style. I use totally 2L matrix. 1L in slow flow additional filter. Nitrate in my tank is zero. I just figured it when i regconised that my plants stop growing up ( with strong co2, and new substrate). I tested and i were shock by the result because I just use matrix , not denitrate. I accidently set up anaerobic barteria cycle in my tank. Now i have to keep fertilizing 3ml seachem Nitrogen everyday to keep NO3 in my tank 15 ppm to feed my plants. Wasted money 😅
It's the plants consuming the nitrogen. Matrix is a fraud.
@@underwaterjungle Actually, i have 2 tanks, similarly. Both using matrix, and have the same fertilizer doses. Thats why i know the problem come from the "matrix slow flow system". Now, i have to add 2ml / day seachem nitrogen to keep it stable. 1ml and 3ml is a big difference. You can search and try to set up slow flow filter system. It would be an interrested experience.
So why do you have it in your tanks for 8 months if it doesn't work?
I assume you maybe the same person who has that Aquarium Science blog site. I find myself reading those articles quite a bit, as I agree that the hobby has lots of pseudo science used to pedal lots of snake oil.
Subbed
No, that's not me but it is a great site full of information. Thanks for the sub!
@@underwaterjungle So who are you, if you aren't that other guy and what are your credentials?
Isn't seachem matrix and seachem de nitrate basically the same thing? A porus rock for bacteria to grow in?
I haven't used de-nitrate but it's my understanding they're both just pumices stones.
IMO you should have run a number of replicates. Using tap water, which may have had intrinsic nitrogen content, was probably a mistake. Nitrification occurs in the water mains as a result of chloramines breaking down. RO water would have been better, and using a measured weight of either KNO3 or NaNO3 as the N source so as to eliminate any errors that may have been made by the manufacturer during the bottling process. Some of the claims made on labels should be viewed with suspicion. As someone has already stated, the depth of the filter medium may not have been deep enough to promote anaerobic or hypoxic conditions.
You didn't subtract the volume of your extended needle from the final volume of N source.
A large confounding factor is that denitrifying bacteria are notoriously difficult to grow, and when they do, they grow very slowly, and their population density is affected by other microbes in the substrate/biofilm. They also require a carbon source for their metabolic processes.
We should regard reports of both success and failure of the product in controlling nitrates as an indication of the variability that exists between aquarists' tank conditions. And, as we know, manufacturers are prone to making extravagant claims to sell their products. However, as an empirical exercise this was useful.
The truth is you can't have anerobic conditions inside an aerobic filter. Its just contrary to how they even work. Lets put it this way: if pumice stones were actually able to produce anaerobic conditions while sitting inside aerobic water the waste treatment plants across the world would be using those stones extensively. The fact of the mater is this is all marketing. Yes, you can probably contrive an unrealistic scenario that isn't representative of how anyone keeps an aquarium (much less one with living creatures in it) and probably get anerobic bacteria to grow on the Matrix and do some denitrification but you also won't have anything else alive in your aquarium or you have some other filtration system (ie. anoxic filtration)
do anoxicfiltration next! I went and bought an undergravel filter to do an experiment. my hypothesis is that the reason people see less nitrate in their tanks after installing the plenum or bcb is because kitty litter as a negative charge that removes and holds onto the ammonium in the water column. however once the capacity has been reached people will begin to see a rise in nitrate again which is what most people claim happens. so does it lower nitrates? yes but it's not because of denitrification.
Biohome, Matrix & Ehiem Substrat Pro are pretty similar. The only real difference is Substrat Pro doesn't claim to remove nitrates whereas the other two do. But some users claim Substrat Pro does help with nitrate reduction.
I don't worry about it. Water changes take care of nitrates. Substrat Pro lasts forever. If you're worried about the pores clogging over time you can use Hydrogen Peroxide to clean it. Not all at once of course! That goes for all three not just Substrat Pro.
I see a lot online about Biohome degenerating over time. I've no idea if it's true as I've never used it. I just want a decent biological media to maximise aerobic bacteria.
I'm not sure many hobbyists are using the media in the proper way. If you take an anerobic media, or plastic army men for that matter and simply put them in a high flow environment, canister filter, HOB etc. the flow rate is simply too fast, (too oxygenated) to be effective as a nitrate reducer. Ideally that stuff should be buried under a thick layer of aerobic cover media or the like. Anaerobic conditions within a aquaria are almost always associated with a no flow / severely constricted environment. Your nice, new, clean, clear HOB only used the media for what you eventually gave it credit for.
Yes, you are absolutely correct. There is no way to create anoxic conditions within the water column or any aquarium filter and still have enough dissolved oxygen in your water to keep your fish alive. Having substrate deep enough is literally the only way to get it. That being said, you probably aren't exchanging nitrates quickly enough with your oxygenated water column for denitrification to be effective. You'll be reducing them from the substrate perhaps but that's literally the opposite of what any planted tank hobbiest wants. Thanks for your comment. I think my next experiment will be trying to force a low oxygen environment to see if I can't contrive a situation and force it to work. I think a buried Matrix version with could be great. Thanks for the suggestion.
@@underwaterjungle thanks for all your hard work.
@@underwaterjungle thanks for the experiment.
A correction, there are other ways to accomplish anoxic condition, through a BCB or a slow moving plenum, see Dr. Kevin Novak's channel for more deep information.
Even in a canister filter water will find the easiest way through the media therefore there will always be very low flow areas around that main channel . I think the point your missing is is that the no oxygen zone isn’t in your filter but within the media itself .
Matrix is a good general media, but it wont help in nitrates, at least to me. Weekly water change is the only way for me to keep big cichlid without plants.
Matrix is great for aerobic bacteria colonies to grow but in most sump or cannister filters their is simply too much oxygenated water for anerobic bacteria to grow. That's where deep sand beds and plants come into play.
Yes, this is entirely correct. It really is that simple. There is no way that oxygen is going to magically disappear from a filter if it's working properly. Deep substrates can definitely provide conditions for anaerobic bacteria though.
The zero oxygen environment happens inside the actual media not inside the filter itself not sure why people don’t understand this . It can also take 12 months for anaerobic bacteria to form . The media also has to be kept under water continuously to achieve this if it is exposed to air for any length of time it will die quickly
You started with some ammonia in the tank as well. That would have been converted to nitrate and your nitrates should have risen.
It was 0.25ppm ammonia. The sensitivity on the API test kit for nitrates is 5ppm so it wouldn't have been a noticable increase.
If you hear what he says about the time between tests and says he'll give it another week when he comes back after the second week that it been running 10 days so is this true?
The media was established media that was many months old. The fact that this established media couldn't remove even the smallest amount of nitrates over the entire course of the test sort of makes a few days here or there between filming pretty much irrelevant. The whole test was conducted over the course of about two months I believe and not a single difference was ever recorded between the measurements.
@@underwaterjungle but your saying you done this and done that there are other elements to consider what is in tanks you put it in for months.
You did put in tank not 0.25ML but 2.5ML. You say so at 3:21 and 3:31
Of course. Media helps do decompose, not remove nitrates
Yes of course but there are a large number of hobbyists that swear by it's denitrification properties. Seachem themselves market Matrix as being able to 'manage nitrates' which clearly it has zero effect on.
I had it in my sump for about 3 mths my Nitrates were about 20 ppm had 2 do a water change to keep nitrates at bay put in in a canister filter running about 30 gph within 2 mths my nitrates are reading 5ppm or lower maybe cause im forcing water thru the media im not claiming 2 be a scientist but been in the hobby over 30 years that being said it worked in that manner for me didnt do anything else at all besides change filter pads
I'd wager changing filter pads had more effect than than the Matrix did. There was probably a nitrate source built up in the pads so changing them caused your nitrates to drop. There's quite a few extra variables in a live system that cause people to incorrectly conclude it was Matrix. This is why I tried a more controlled setting. I will rerun this test eventually with a whole canister of Matrix and see if I can get better results but I'm skeptical.
I had high hopes for matrix but after 4 months in my fluval 307 canister I'm sorry to report that you are right, it doesn't remove any nitrate whatsoever, guess back to water changes 😞
Unfortunately this is the truth. If you read the other comments then surely you're doing it wrong. Have you tried eliminating all dissolved oxygen in your water? 🤣 There's literally no way to have healthy oxygenated water and at the same time have dissolved oxygen levels so low that denitrification can happen efficiently enough to measure. Waste water treatment research is very extensive on this subject and matches with the results of this experiment.
How much are you using ? You really need to fill both media trays up to the very top otherwise it will not reduce your nitrate only keep it at the same level .
I did try aswell for about 6 months and not working at all. West of money and stress.
I think Matrix works best in canister filters based on what I have seen from these tests people of done.
I do intend to redo this experiment again sometime in the future with a canister full of Matrix. Maybe we'll see different results from that one.
@@underwaterjungle It should be interesting because in a canister filter it has no light exposed to it at all and it can hold a lot more media but also I'm sure there is a difference in the oxygen levels because it's not exposed to air in the same way. It's essentially pressurized in a way. I don't know if that reduces it much or not but I know high pressure areas like high altitude have less oxygen in the water. So maybe it reduces in oxygen in the filter and oxygenates as it comes out. Maybe that has an affect on how anaerobic bacteria grows in the center of the matrix in a canister filter or maybe it has more power passing through it to push it out of the center so that it can have an affect on the water passing through it.
All excellent points! Higher pressures inside a canister should actually allow an increase in dissolved oxygen levels rather than a decrease. Higher altitude have less oxygen because atmospheric pressure is lower. That being said, there so many different variables between a canister and a HOB that it certainly justifies further investigation. Hopefully I'll be ready in the next few months.
Хороший опыт, но нужно было ежедневно тестировать аммоний и нитрит, чтобы определить, как быстро бактерии на субстрате конвертируют их в нитрат.
Зачем ?
You forgot to do something that all fish owners do(change water weekly) it the biggest thing that make media work. If you had done that your test would have been better. I been keeping fish in my 150 tank and use that media plus other, I have 20 fish and feed 5 different food everyday (lots of waste and poop) I hope that you know that it take a lot of work to keep 7 different fish in a tank and keep them all happy.
Changing the water makes the test entirely meaningless then. Of course the nitrates will go down when you remove them with a water change. That's not the purpose of this video. This video shows that Matrix has zero effect on nitrates at all.
I agree with you about Matrix Not reducing NO3. " in the average commonly used methods. " I never expected it to .. however. I still use it because of the huge surface area for aerobic bacteria. I think your approach is a bit cynical. also I believe the "size and volume of your experiment" is what proves exactly what you wanted to prove .. if you "densely packed" like "8 or 10 liters" of Matrix in a (dark - slow flowing - low to no oxygen filter system) I'll bet you could prove that under the specific right conditions. it would reduce nitrate .. yup. it's intentionally misleading advertising .. no big deal.. it's still a good product. obviously. your using it in your other aquariums right ?? peace out ..
Yes, it still has benefits beyond the false nitrate reduction claims. Mostly I like it over sponges because it's more flexible to seed new filters. With a sponge I'd have to have the exact same filter or I'd have to cut the sponge so seeding a new filter for a new setup is a pain then. With Matrix (or any other rocks for that matter) it's just a matter of grabbing handful of rocks and it'll fit in whatever filter I want to seed. Makes it super convenient and flexible.
if I can see the flow rate of the water and really look nice ! it mean alot of Oxygen there ... slowing the process and help to kill nitrifying bacteria
Hmm great content will say matrix is not special its simply pumice stone more expensive next to get a FULL cycle ending in nitrate reduction will take anaerobic to form it low oxygen states this can take several months and this is why most simply water change i personally mature media over 6 to 10 months so i can get a FULL cycle then seed new filters i have tested this my tap water is steady at 50ppm this is the legal UK limit and after my mature media has been run through for a while it settles at 10ppm and use plants to sort that now biomedia should never really be washed off as that will stop or hinder the full cycle now i always keep a sponge filter running along side a mechanical filter this also helps seed ,,,great stuff worth watching
Your Seachem Matrix has no denitrifying bacteria in it probably because your tanks are well oxygenated. You need it running in anaerobic conditions.
Yes, you are correct but it makes no sense either. I prefer to keep my fish alive with a healthy level of dissolved oxygen. Of course if you remove all oxygen from your water you'll be able to create anaerobic conditions. You can't have healthy oxygenated water for your fish and also have anaerobic conditions in your water column at the same time. They're mutually exclusive. Also, you don't need Matrix all if you're trying to kill everything but denitrifying bacteria by depleting your water of oxygen. The entire premise of the test is that Seachem claims it controls nitrates and it's assumed by most hobbiests that the claim implies that it will work in a typical aerobic filter. It clearly doesn't. Yes, if you contrive a scenario with no dissolved oxygen in your water you can have denitrifying bacteria grow and remove nitrates. It's not a real world scenario for any aquarium though.
What about seachem denitrate?
Good question. I did not explicitly test denitrate. It's my understanding that it's still pumice stone just smaller rocks. Seachem themselves claim you need very slow flow for it to work; so essentially a contrived environment that wouldn't really exist in any normal aquarium setting.
Just spent $200 to load up my canister with Matrix. 👀
Perfectly controlled test. Hard to argue against it, but maybe the organics/ chemicals in the Seachem bottle are different from organics left from fish waste.
It's still an ok biomedia even if it doesn't remove nitrates as claimed. I'm not a chemist or biologist so I can't speak on whether or not there are different forms of nitrates without doing more research. This is a great question though. Thanks for suggesting it. I have a followup experiment video planned that I'll start shooting at the end of this week. I'll use tank water from another tank that I'm not dosing with liquid fertilizers to see if it reacts any differently. Great suggestion
Your test isn’t rearlistic it works kaveman aquatics uses it on his 210g chiclid tank and his nitrate has reduced from around 160ppm to 40ppm
His test isn't a controlled experiment. He has fish in it that he feeds, lights, does water changes, etc for months. There's no conclusions one can draw from a 'test' like that. Also, I might add the Matrix I used is twice as old as his and should be much more established. My experiment was a controlled experiment using established Matrix and a quantifiable amount of nitrates. No other nitrates were added and no nitrates were removed by the Matrix. Kaveman's test, other people's anecdotal evidence, and all the pseudoscience out there is why I made this controlled experiment. The results stand unless you can prove my test is flawed.
@@underwaterjungle there’s a difference between controlled and reality
@@hakman239 This guy thinks that we can't draw any conclusions if we have fish in a fish tank! His 60 whole subscribers must be very impressed!
After reading the other reviews, I thought I will give it a try and in the end De*nitrate really works, brings down my 60 gal overstocked freshwater tank from 80ppm nitrate to a constant 10ppm, however it takes a lot more effort, brain and money on top of the product itself to create an ideal environment for it. And I think it's worth it.
First you need a few things:
1. A media reactor cylindrical and clear
2. Liquid flow meter
3. Flow control valve
4. A pre-filter
5. An after-filter
6. A submersible aquarium pump
7. Shut-off valves
8. Stainless/plastic hose clamps and strong cable ties
9. Clear aquarium vinyl tubing
10. 50 micron filter pads
Then you connect the submersible pump to a shut-off valve, through a pre-filter, then through media reactor, out through the liquid flow meter, through the flow control valve, then finally an after-filter which is a 50 micron polishing pad tied to the end of the tube submerged in the aquarium. You want the flow rate to be at around 35gph consistently. To do that, you will have to adjust the flow control valve once in a while as the pre-filter catches more and more debris while it slows down the flow little by little.
A few things need to be taken into consideration:
1. You need a pump that has a flow rate of at least three times of 35gph just to handle the media reactor and pre-filter, then add roughly additional 100gph for 50 micron polishing pad because it slows down the flow significantly. Finally another 50gph as the flow rate gets slowed down little by little in the long run while it catches more and more debris.
2. You need to use your liquid flow meter to read your current flow rate easily and adjust accordingly.
3. Do not cheap out on a pre-filter, make it big, in diameter, not in length. The bigger diameter it has, the longer it takes to slow down the flow significantly hence the longer time periods it provides until maintenance.
4. Put a 50 micron filtering pad inside your pre-filter. This will provide longer working time for your media reactor before it gets clogged up by debris which then it would require a complete rinsing of the media itself.
5. It can be pain in the ass when it comes to the tubing size. The best case scenario would be one size fits all when your pump, your pre-filter, your media reactor, your flow meter all require the same tube size, if not, then you would need multi-hose adapter which adds to the work and cost.
6. Always use clamps in every joint to prevent potential leak. Use plastic cable ties or hose clamps instead of metal clamps for underwater applications.
7. Add shut-off valve at the ins and outs of your pre-filter and media reactor for easy maintenance.
8. After every time you rinse your media, add tiny bit of sugar at the bottom and middle of your reactor as the anaerobic bacteria need a carbon source to thrive.
9. Last but not least, your will need an alkaline buffer and aquarium minerals because once water change becomes less and less often, maintaining a healthy PH and vital minerals level becomes more and more important.
I agree.
Maybe because you didn’t have livestock in the aquarium you were testing the bacteria died off. I thought all beneficial bacteria need a ammonia source to survive ?
There are many different types of nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria. They all consume different things. Some convert ammonia to nitrite. Others convert nitrite to nitrates. The bacteria we're concerned with here in this experiment are the ones that specifically consume nitrates and convert it into nitogen gas. This is a large group of bacteria but almost all of them only consume nitrates when there is no oxygen in the water. They consume the nitrate because it contains oxygen atoms in the molecule (NO3) and they typically only live in environments with extremely low or no oxygen (supposedly inside the rock).
@@underwaterjungle yes anaerobic bacteria . It takes many months for these to colonise
I've had Seachem matrix in my saltwater aquarium for 1.5 years and it has not removed any nitrates. Hmmm... *sarcastic*..maybe the bacteria is still growing?
I have 4L of it for a 100L aquarium. Just use it for the purpose of any biomedia and not for the purpose of removing nitrates because it's not going to do any of that!
Exactly. It's decent biomedia at least.
@@underwaterjungle When I first added it into the water, I saw tiny micro bubbles coming out of it. So indeed it is porous. But to be honest as it's only effective for removing ammonia and nitrite, it's providing the exact same fuction as pretty much all biomedia. So I really don't know how "effective" it is actually. Like will there be a difference if i buy a really inexpensive biomedia online compared to this? i.e those plastic balls and ceramic media. The only real positive thing I can say as a hobbist is that this media doesn't breakdown unlike some which would crumble. Then again there are lots of inexpensive media that doesn't break down also. The rest of it's claimed benefits we can only trust as we can't really prove. I feel that in today's mordern world, you can't really just trust everything you read anymore including those from name brands and expensive items. You just have to do your own checks and take their claims with a pinch of salt as everything is a form of marketing. Sales vs Belief vs Truth.
Thanks for reading, I just had to rant... Thanks for your video! Purigen didn't do anything for my saltwater tank also haha...
@@youronlycow I'm always down for a good rant! I entirely agree with what you said. It's really no more effective than simple sponges. What I do like is it's nice grabbing a handful of established media and seeing a new filter/tank with it to jump start things but beyond that..meh. I bought it specifically to reduce nitrates in a tank I was having problems with and it completely failed. I doubt I'd ever buy more. I have had similar failures with purigen to reduce nitrates but purigen is great at removing tannins however.
This is a controlled test y’all! Stop comparing your tanks full of fishes and plants! That makes your Aquarium have a “nature setting” which over times controls the chemicals in your tanks! He is only doing nitrates! And by adding 5.0 ppm he is trying to see if matrix will remove the nitrate without natures interruption. Unfortunately, matrix didn’t show results here! And his matrix has already been established! He explained this!… anyways! I got what I needed from this video! I also saw kevs video and wondered I don’t do water changed every week… mine would show different readings and I have plants.. no control in my tank. No need to experiment and get frustrated with matrix after seeing this.
Why bother with Prime?
You deff just put in 2.5 ml not .25
Yeah I messed that part up. I'm pretty sure the results will still be the same though but who knows. I'll probably redo the whole experiment again one day.
Kitty litter for anoxic filtration works better than this.
The attempt is earnest, but this is a faulty experiment from the get go. Unless you can run a PCR / somehow quantify the amount of potential denitrifying bacteria, it would be irresponsible to draw hard conclusions from this.
It's definitely not a publishable result but it does go quite a bit further than previous video reviews on the denitrification potential of the product. I eliminate many of the uncontrolled variables we see in many other review videos so we can really drill into the denitrification claims better. I would love to have a hundred test tanks all setup and all explicitly pre-seeded with different types of denitrifying bacteria but I suspect the cost of doing that would be prohibitive. You're right in that I can't make any hard conclusions in a purely academic sense without at least pre-seeding a tank with an identifiable type of denitrifying bacteria.
It takes time for that bacteria to form
This is 8 month old matrix. It doesn't work. It literally can't work as claimed in oxygenated water like an aquarium.
Good test. In the saltwater world we use Marine Pure bio media to try the same, but it should be in a low flow area of the sump to allow the anarerobic bateria to develope. Long story short, it does not do enough reduction, so I went back to using carbon dosing and algae scrubbers to keep my NO3 in check. My unproven theory is that you would need large quantities to grow the necessary amount of bacteria to make a difference, as on a real reef in the ocean. Thanks.
I agree. I think the conditions in which it might happen, if it's even possible, are likely quite contrived and entirely detached from the reality of how anyone keeps an aquarium.
Keep testing
I tried reading your blog post where you "prove" deep sand beds and media don't reduce nitrates, but you lost me when you dismissed the Science that was contradicting your viewpoint as "government funded lies".
I have never claimed a deep substrate doesn't work to remove nitrates. I only claim (prove) Matrix inside an aerobic filter does nothing to remove nitrates. I think a deep substrate experiment would be super interesting and actually have been thinking about that very thing this week. I don't think Matrix itself has anything to do with that though. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence suggesting it might work with just soil and a sand cap. I don't think I could pull it off successfully in that tiny 2.5g test tank though so I need to move a few things around to free up a 10g tank to experiment with. I was thinking a nice layer of normal soil capped with silica sand and a simple HOB filter with sponges in it. I'm a bit busy with life recently so I haven't had time to get it setup but soon.
Also, that isn't my blog you're reading. That's someone else entirely. I'm assuming you're talking about AquariumScience.org ? There is some great information on that site for sure but you're entirely right that it is biased in places.
@@underwaterjungle Oh right, my apologies then. The channel name will probably result in quite a few people associating you with the site.
There is a lot of "voodoo" in the aquarium world, lots of sponsored reviews, every aquarist has a different opinion on each matter. There is not much friendly books/sources that are based on science and can explain processes that are running inside aquarium. Of course, this is not a full scientific experiment but this channel can move in good direction. I'm waiting for the next video :)
I don't agree with your findings. I run matrix in all of my filters and sumps. With that said over time I have seen much improved nitrate levels in my tanks.
So my question back to you is you said you use it in all your filters why if you don't like it why are you using it?
Sorry but this is a science experiment so it doesn't matter if you agree with it or not. The data is what it is. If you could point out a problem with how I conducted the experiment I will address it. I would love for it to actually work somehow but unfortunately it doesn't. As for why I use it, I bought Matrix for my tanks precisely for the denitrification claims which I've proven are false. I still like it as a bio media though because it makes seeding new tanks extremely easy. I just take some old bio media from an established tank and move it into a new filter and poof it's ready to go. That being said, there's nothing actually special about it over any other media rocks or balls. They offer the same convenience. I haven't conducted tests on Matrix versus other biomedia when it comes to how quickly each converts ammonia to nitrate but this site goes into more depth specifically with that in mind: aquariumscience.org/index.php/7-2-12-matrix/
@@underwaterjungle well my friend we can just agree to disagree. I just know for me over time I went from water changes weekly to by weekly as my nitrate levels were not getting as high. Especially true in my large tank full of big fish that create a lot of waste. So we will just agree to disagree. I think that's fair
Anecdotal evidence like this is one main reason I did this test. We hear many people claim it works and many people claim it doesn't. My personal experience is that it doesn't work but I wanted to do this test to prove one way or another if it actually works. My test is pretty simple to reproduce and it's only 5ppm of nitrates so it's quite odd that it can't remove just that tiny little bit of nitrate. The problem with testing on our actual aquariums is that we feed at variable rates, we adjust lighting, we add/remove fish, we have algae and plants which both definitely will consume nitrates, and a whole slew of other uncontrollable variables. It's hard to draw accurate conclusions when there's too many variables like that. It's also a possibility, though I suspect unlikely, that there's some conditions in which denitrifying bacteria will actually grow inside Matrix and actually work to eliminate nitrates but those conditions just aren't present in any of my filters. Aquariums are extremely complex ecosystems so I wouldn't definitively rule out that possibility.
I use pot scrubbies in my filter's
@@TheFittedRockStar comple5e waste of time. You need something with a lot of surface area for bacteria to grow on. Plastic pot scrubbers do not provide this.
Not a control experience.
But I'll tell you one thing not a real wold experience I used matrix in a tank 80 gallon cichlid heavy stocked tank and definitely worth the cost now that being said also used lava bbq rock and took a year instead of 6 months if your not feeding the tank your not getting anaerobic that MATRIX
Builds on so heads up seachem does work and ill do the challenge any day hit me up seachem and yourself I'll start a new tank and use seachem products and will gautee prove you wrong or the tank will be yours sound fair ?
noice
Good bacteria grows on matrix may take several months. Matrix alone doesn’t remove nitrates. To my understanding
If you watched the video you will see that I clearly state this is 8 month old Matrix that had been running in a canister filter in another aquarium for that amount of time. Also, there simply is no way to have denitrification inside aerobic water. If that were possible the waste treatment plants across the globe would be buying Matrix by the ton. The reality is this is just misleading advertising. Yes, you can create a contrived anaerobic condition in an aquarium with no oxygen and yes denitrifying bacteria may grow on the matrix and actually remove nitrates but it also means you kill all your fish.
@@underwaterjungle absolutely true
I wouldnt call that a controlled test, I run Matrix in all my huge setups, have since Matrix practically cane out.
Nitrates are always Zero. Nitrate reduction is based on several things amount of water, amount of Nitrates, jus like BB you will never have more than needed, in this case the less Matrix you have the less amount it will reduce. Instead of calling this a science experiments which it's far from, you should tag it either Matrix didn't work for me, or 17 minutes of time a viewer will never get back
Do you have any recommendation for how to improve the test or just more anecdotal "I think it works for me so it works" evidence.
It takes 3 months to work. I've tested it.
this was using 8 month old media. it doesn't work under any normal scenario. you could concoct a low flow, low oxygen setup but there wouldn't be enough oxygen in the water to actually keep your fish alive.
You started by adding 10 times more Prime than you said and should have. Not sure how scientific this test will be...
You start with the misconception that it will remove nitrates from the start. Same as with other filter media that provide areas for anaerobic denitrifying bacteria, it needs time to actually eastablish a sufficient bacteria population. This will take months, not weeks. It highly depends on flow rate, oxygen levels and media volume, too. This is not a resin or chemical adsorbtion process.
Please make sure to do a little research prior to conducting an experiment and potentially misleading viewers, thank you!
Instantly wrong dose of prime lol. 0.25 required and 10 seconds later measures out 2.5 😂
This test environment is not the same water conditions as a stocked tank. Hoooooey