@@ediri8354 Or buy a 25 jewel version, like the Gentleman. It has a normal escapement but a silicon.based hairspring - if thats not too plastic-like for you :-)
The general consensus about the movement is negetive only. I got 2 tissot watches and both are quartz. Tissot is basically a quarts watch company, if you go for their quartz varients you will be very happy for the value they provide. The fit and finish are usually two price bracket higher than what they sell for. Just never get their automatic watches.
Hello Kalle, wonderful video. Big fan of your work, Christiaan Huygens would be proud! I sent you an urgent email, forgive me for pestering you about it here, but please let me know your thoughts as, well, time is of the essence. Thanks again and keep up the great work. Best regards, TGV
Plastic escape wheel, plastic pallet fork, plastic durability.... Personally, I think Tissot should use wood instead of plastic, which would be more environmentally friendly, and in addition, the watch would generate a nice supply of very fine sawdust to mop up any surplus moebius left hanging around the escapement.
This is a very ignorant comment in sorry. Those plastic parts are derlin which is very strong and used in many industries and heavy equipment. Just as plastic and rubber make a gshock more resistant than any steel watch, plastic can perform other functions just as good or better than metal. The reason you don’t like it is because when you were growing up you were told plastic was cheap and bad. But in fact there’s no reason why plastic couldn’t do the function properly
If you compare the plastic escapement of the Swatch 2840 - used in the pre-Sistem 51 - you will find exactly this pallet fork and escapement wheel. It isn't even new, it is old... And the major joke: The pallet fork needs lubrication, a special Moebius grease.
Exactly. I'm no expert on watches in general, but people shouldn't be too indignant about a plastic escapement because there is a genuine reason for it. Plastic, or more likely, nylon, is a better shock absorber and therefore helps with vibration, which is precisely why it's the escapement and not so much other parts that is made of the offending material. Don't believe me? Go kick the side of your car and see what happens. well preferably don't as it will most likely leave a big dent. Now go kick the side of your refuse bin with the same force. What happens? No dent. So I know people will have a hard time accepting this, but it's actually an improvement. You won't find it in high end watches of course, because people don't expect it and manufacturers know what their response will be but they would use it if they could. This Le Locle is actually a really nice watch by the way if you can accept it for what it is. I picked one up for under £400 in the January sales from a local jeweller, very happy with it and it definitely looks like it cost a lot more.
@@severnsea : plastic is flexible and VERY bad at resisting friction, which is exactly the opposite of you want for the escapement. Also, plastics hardens and becomes brittle. It also shrinks. In something made with incredibly small tolerances, this is just a very bad idea. But in all reality, these watches are exactly like Seiko 5, you buy it, wear it for a few years until it starts slowing down, throw it in a drawer and buy something else....and Swatch group knows that. They want you to buy new watches, not service them.
@@keesketsers5866 bs. Anyone with half a brain cell will replace the movement in a Seiko 5, NH35/36s are so cheap there's literally no reason not to do it, for 30 euros the watch is good for another 15 years.
Tissot is Swatch's lowest tier brand. Boomers get upset about what they think is plastic. It does its job well. Anyway, a few steps up the Swatch ladder to Certina and they don't use this "plastic" part. I wonder what this guy thinks if the "plastic" part in the Omega Speedmaster movement 😂
In many areas of engineering and manufacturing, "engineered plastics" are the right choice. This refers to plastics that are made with certain characteristics to high standards. They have known properties and pass rigorous testing. I don't know if that is the quality level of the material for these watch parts. In any case, I am a bit of a traditionalist about mechanical watches and feel these should be made from stainless steel or brass regardless of the plastics that are available. Keep in mind though that the use of plastics for some parts _may_ be a well-considered, engineering decision.
I have this watch in its original form, before the Powermatic 80. It keeps time better than my CHR Ward chronometer which was over double the price, as does my other Tissot (T Sport from 2010). Tissot are excellent watches - accurate and great value for money.
I have this watch. It works great, lovely piece. Plastic: Does it matter if a) it works well, and b) it has durability, c) it reduces wear? But yeah, your rage is palpable.
@@rosomak8244why must you lie? I have one 3-year-old seastar 2000 and 5-year-old seastar 1000, the difference is 3-4 secs/MONTH. Secondly, this is a serviceable model, it is not difficult to change any gears. 🤡
There’s a reason why Tissot spelled backwards is “Toss it”. They’ve been making bad decisions. I’ve seen it with the Swissmatic… a literal unserviceable movement because it’s glued together (no screws). What the actual hell.
If not mistaking: the Swissmatic is based on the System 51 (which was mfgr. for Swatch), incredibly the watches which they put the El-cheapo movements inside really look good (the old saying: if it’s too good to be true, it ain’t), the difference in a quality movement are very small money wise. ETA needs better administrators to survive their reputation of quality products.😢
Tissot is part of swatch group as well as certina,hamilton etc. And they don t make their own decisions. If swatch group decides that c07.111 will be the new standard, it will be the new standard
ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING. I have had some Tissots with good results. Currently still have the NON-Powermatic Visodate with less power reserve but more smoothness regarding the second hand. I presume Tissot will explain away the plastic escapement as a weight-saving measure as well as a means to keep the cost to the consumer down. At least Hamilton spelled backwards is Notlimah which has no negative connotation.
Hamilton use the same ETA based movement, but I have to say mine runs 0-+1+seconds a day so a tiny piece of plastic doesn't bother me as long as the watch runs accuracy.,... which it does, they say it's for magnetic reasons which is fare enough
9 месяцев назад+34
There's several versions os the Powematico 80 movements and the plastic component is not present in all of them, such in the Ballade Cosc and Seastar.
I have a PR100 Powermatic 80 with plastic escapement. I have had it for 2 years as my daily driver and currently runs at +2 sec/day. The most accurate watch I have owned. Yeah, same accuracy as an coaxial METAS Omega.
Everyone is fast to jump to PLASTIC = BAD but do we actually have any data substantiating that these will wear out that much faster than a metal palette fork?
Thank you for being honest as a professional in watchmaking.. because not everybody know about that "plastic" thing, and the advertising obviously not mentioning that thing very clear.. so, if we're not a watch enthusiast, maybe we didn't even notice about that problem in long term usage. That's also the reason I choose the green Tissot PRX 40mm in quartz version.. because for the price it's ask, I think it's worth the value.
It’s well known that the C07.111 has a plastic escapement. C07.6xx version has a regular escapement. C07.8xx version has a regular escapement plus a silicon balance spring. I agree, plastic pallet fork and escape wheel has no place in a Swiss movement. C07.1xx movements are considered disposable- the movement typically costs less than a service. All the auto Tissot PRX line has the plastic escapement. The Gentleman line has the regular escapement. I’m somewhat surprised to learn the plastic escapement (C07.1xx) is in the Le Locle line which is Tissot’s biggest seller worldwide. I’m not a fan of the line, which costs basically the same as the Gentleman. I guess the takeaway is be suspicious of a modified/updated 2824 ETA movement with 23 jewels lol (they are here to stay)
Thank you for details. This means my Gentleman with 25 jewels and C08711 has a regular escapement, for what it´s worth. I´m very happy with how it runs anyway.
Every so often Amazon drops the price of the Powematic 80 Gentleman watch to $425. Right now they have the blue dial version for $425. At least with the Tissot Gentlemen watch you get the regular escapement and not a plastic one like in the PRX. Of course there are still other minor problems like people complaining about the bracket having sharp edges.
Man even the Seiko 7S26 which has no hand winding/hacking has a jeweled pallet fork. Even the Miyota 8200a has a jeweled pallet fork. What even is this garbage.
Yes, that's the problem with the 23 jewel powermatic 80. Although the plastic part should last long and be durable. The 25 jewel version in Hamilton and mido doesn't have the plastic parts if your interested in those instead.
I believe the plastic has some amazing characteristics such as high hardness and low friction, i don't think it's a bad aspect, new materials are part of any engineer life. We need to see how it goes on the field. So far i think Tissot is doing pretty well if you consider the amount of PRX out there.
When you buy a watch which claims to have "high tech elements", you expect that to include jewels at the high friction points. There is no plastic, no matter how fancy shmansy it may be that is more effective, more advanced, more "high tech" or more desireable than rubies.
@@schell0118 But jewels are lower tech than modern plastics. I immediately thought of a non-traditional material when the escapement was described as "high-tech". Plastic was an option. Some plastics are literally the least-wearing or strongest-per-diameter materials known to mankind.
@@zbnmth I agree. Unfortunately it is only a plus to those who approach these issues from an engineering aspect. Emotionally, to most people, it is plastic. I get both sides of the argument.
Absolutely, especially if you consider that ETA builds movements with that plastic escapement since 1991! So they got a little bit over 30 years of experience with that.
I learned this a while ago and it completely blew me away! From one grumpy old man to another, it is just another step backward for them. We see again the slow and painful demise of a once great watchmaker. Excellent video my friend, people need to know what they are buying.
@@DISK2000 It is designed to use 5-10 years, then toss it and buy again. No, thanks i just buy a similar seiko, orient or citizen automatic, with better economic value (I do not comment on resale value.)
Isn't the rule something like 60% of the value has to be Swiss made? Better than it was, it used to be 50% until a few years ago. To be honest it's not like it was a century ago, the rest of the world has caught up and a watch doesn't have to be Swiss to be a good watch. I know the purists won't agree but, hey, nobody cares what watch you wear anyway. Most people these days wouldn't know one brand from another.
I would sell it the second I figured it out! I coukdnt wear it as it woukd bother and annoy me too much .Just shows watches selling at inflated prices not worth it.These company's better watch out. Things like this hurt the name and I woukd avoid altogether. Watch is a LUXURY and a manufacturer shoots themselves in the foot cheating out like this
Sir...as an Aircraft Tech and engineer Ive noticed a huge lowering of quality from RR engines to airframe fitment (Doors falling off at 17K feet). Im retired now, my peers always wanted to do quality work to maintain Airworthiness but employees today are more interested in their tick tock then setting engine core bearing tolerances.
The Tissot Gentleman use the C07.811 escapement with a silicone hairspring, but a traditional escapement, if a buyer feels "plastic" has nothing to do in an escapement, but want a Tissot with 80 h power reserve. The 23 jewel version of Powermatic 80 has plastic escapement (but a metallic hairspring). The 25 jewel version has mettalic escapement with the two extra jewels located at the fork, but a silcon-based hairspring.
The plastic parts (escape wheel & pallet fork) only apply to the Tissot PRX Powermatic 80 watch, which carries a C07.111 movement (23 juwels). The new Tissot Gentlemen Powermatic 80 watch has a C07.811 movement with all metal parts, a silicon balance spring and 25 juwels.
I believe you are correct, Sir. This is why I got myself a Gentleman. I believe the C07.111 is also in a number of other Tissot and Swatch group models though. LeLocle has it too I think
I just panicked thinking I had bought a 'plastic' watch 😒so I got it under the microscope... thankfully, it turns out that you are correct and the Gentleman is a different movement number!... Phew ☺
I agree i have a 25 jewels powermatic 80 and all is well with the full metal parts plus silicon is used in many higher ETA calibre, so be careful only with the 23 jewels IMO
The first thing to expect among the Powermatic 80 temperature options is that there is no single mechanism with this name. There are multiple Powermatic 80 options with small but important changes according to functions and materials. The first group consists of the version with 23 jewels (80.111, 80.111 COSC, 80.121), the second group consists of 25 jewel mechanisms (80.601, 80.661, 80.811 with silicon balance spring and 80.811 COSC). One of the discussions is the use of delrin, a plastic derivative, in the mechanism. Plastic is a word that does not inspire confidence in people, but it is not from the plastics in delrin. It is an engineering product with DuPont production, moisture distribution, hard, low values and high wear resistance, and is also resistant to high temperatures. There is no delrin in Powermatic 80 Mechanisms with silicon balance spring or COSC feature. The calculation speed setting of the system I mentioned above is adjusted by laser in the factory during the production phase and even standard parts are shown close to COSC qualifications. Powermatic 80 is a new System developed with high technology and includes solutions focused on the shortcomings of ETA 2824-2, therefore it has a system that is both robust and extremely stable. It is seen that even when compared to much more expensive mechanisms, it does not fall behind in terms of its stability, on the contrary, it performs better.
A commenter on one of the reviews posted the below previously. I had understood the plastic parts were one of the features of the specific movement. The rate is adjustable by adjusting the eccentric screw as it's a free sprung balance. The plastic part is a Nivachron hairspring that was co-developed with swatch group and APRP, with that it made the watch anti-magnetic, and pallet fork with the escape wheel made out of the composite, it createsless friction and less impact. You know good things for a hairspring. C07 movements are highly serviceable, so it's not just throwaway movement, they use special lubricant compared to the common swiss lever 9415 oil which if other watchmaker out there have the proper lubricant they could fix this watch too. They exchange the movement so the turn around time of servicing is faster while the old movement is sent to Switzerland to be serviced.
I dont get the point of most people calling it out and especially I dont understand this video. Sure I get Tissot probably could have made a more elegant solution than using plastic parts. But is the issue here that it is not "high tech", or that it just shouldnt have plastic? Because the powermatic 80 was designed to have a longer power reserve at a lower price. There are of course hi beat movements with higher power reserves but none in this price range except for the powermatic. It needs the plastic parts to reduce moment of inertia and to help the weaker beat rate to actually keep on beating. Someone in a youtube video tried swapping the fork and escape wheel out for genuine 2824 metal parts and it could not run sustained. I think its not justified that the powermatic 80 gets so much smack, although I agree it could have been solved more elegantly and that many powermatic 80 models are very expensive to use a mechanism like that, even though still not as expensive as hi beat high power reserve models.
What are the specs of the plastic? Just because it is plastic doesn't mean it is bad. Are Magpul magazines bad because they eliminated the steel feed lips? Of course not. It is not as simple as "plastic bad!" My Tissot Gentlemen with the Powermatic 80 is the most accurate mechanical watch I own from my testing, after wearing for 14 days I calculated it was only 0.86 seconds per day slow.
I appreciate the insight into these kind of practices. Without digging further, the movement and its finishing looked so nice (even in the display case back). Is there any argument from a technical side for a plastic escapement, or is it just cost savings?
I'm curious if the impulse jewel is plastic as well. Otherwise the ruby might slowly chew away at the pallet fork? Some plastics have very good abrasion qualities though. Also curious about the long term stability of the plastic it self.
I gifted my stepfather the exact same watch and serviced it last year. Thankfully for him and me it was the previous 'upgraded lol' version and has a true eta 2824-2 inside 👍🏽 High tech escapement 😂
@@Revenant.Wristwatch I knew it had a 2482-2 inside prior to purchase (cannot go wrong with that movement) but I certainly didn't know that they had gone and done this on the new versions :(
Is it very different than the plastic parts in the 7750 to reduce friction and lubrication? Another question: can the escape wheel and pallet fork be swapped for the ones in the other iterations of the movement with 25 jewels? Another question: what is the lifespan of the parts-do they wear out or are they spec’d to last based on the forces they’re exposed to. The idea is that Tissot made plastic movements before they were part of Swatch and ETA has used these parts (polymer pallet fork and escape wheel) in the Swatch irony. They seem to keep working. Is it to save money or save on service requirements? How long do the parts last? The consumer ultimately has a strong influence since many for example think 28800 indicates finer whereas 21600 is inferior. What about haute horologerie where low beat is more the norm. Another common misinformation is that one can’t adjust the timekeeping as it’s adjusted with laser at the factory. BS. Carl pointed out the inertial weights and the free sprung balance are usually found on high end watches like Patek and Rolex. If it was cost saving why would they include the free sprung balance?
i knew about this but i feel conflicted. Personally i find le locle to be beautiful and i want it, but it had this issue. Any way to avoid / alleviate / aftermarket upgrade it?
Why do you think the Swatch Group used polymer to make the escapement? Why all that trouble? Does it really help save a lot of money? The answer is no. It’s actually more complicated to use polymer than brass or steel to make an escapement. Swatch Group intentionally chose polymer because it reduces ware and tear and it increases the lubrication. I m surprised a watchmaker like you don’t understand something so simple.
C'est dans l'air du temps, on produit à bas coût et on vend cher, c'est de l'argent facile et une vision à très court terme. Les chinois pendant ce temps progressent tous les jours... Mais je ne suis qu'un petit horloger de province sans grande expérience.
This movement is part of a family of 3 movement Tissot is using. You have the C07.111, the C07.601 and the C07.811. The 111 comes with 23 jewels and the 'high tech escapement' without the 2 pallet fork jewels, hence 23. The 601 uses normal materials, the 811 has a silicon hairspring. I personally checked. I have the 811 version, on which, so far, I do not have any problems. I personally think that plastic parts in a watch are a no-no, however, there are a lot of Seikos using plastic stuff on places Seiko says improves the function of the watch. Whilst that might be the case, in this specific case, I have to agree with Kalle: This is bordering on pure fraud, is misleading, and by no means are these parts anywhere near 'high tech'. I have to say, I am glad I bought the part which is not containing the plastic, because all in all, and Kalle also mentions this, the movement itself based on the ETA 2824-2 is a solid movement
Yes, especially the .601 and .811 movements are perfectly nice automatics with 3+ days power reserve, _except_ that you can't buy parts from the manufacturer so you'd have to rely on donor movements. I'd prefer an SW200-1 -- or rather spend a bit more and get an SW300-1 (Sellita's ETA 2892-A2 clone). I'd gladly give up some power reserve to be more confident about maintaining the movement long term (w/o sending the watch to its maker & having the movement replaced). I don't like this idea of trashing a perfectly nice movement that just needs service.
Thank you for touching this “great strategy” of such respected brand! I found such plastic escapement many many years ago on one of Chinese “no name movement”. It was strange, cheap and monstrous decision towards the client, just to sell the watch and forgot anything…. And now we see this in watches there engraved on the oscillating weight - 1853! For what?! Does it means they find a decision of the ages?
Hello, I am thinking of buying a Tissot chronograph with a C02.211 which has a plastic pallet form and escapement wheel. Provided it is cared for appropriately, do you think it is worth it?
I would prefer facts and data from a timegrapher and time between replacement at service intervals to emotional indignation. If the beat error, vibration, and energy consumption were less for nylon over metal, and the Nylon escapement lasts 3 service intervals or 10 years, with identical ETA 2824 movements, the nylon escapement is product improvement. Manufacturers choosing this material should be transparent about it. Nylon should not be substituted if it degrades performance or reasonable endurance expectations.
Hi, so is it silicon or plastic? Is there anyway to test it to be sure? This movement has been in use for a number of years now, how is the feedback from custoners?
Plastic. We never hear feedback from those who bought in the early days, 2013-2014. I don't think there's anything wrong with the movement. It's the idea that Swatch broke with tradition and just to save a very small amount of money.
@@robertbrandywine It's not just to save money. It actually works better when trying to get the longer power reserve. Requires less energy to stay consistent and accurate. That way they can use a longer and thinner main spring to get the 80hr reserve.
thanks for this wonderful insight. It's incredible how managers risk destroying a company taking such stupid decisions. I hope you'll expose more of them.
I have a seastar in for repair at the mo, the crown wont close and the rotor spins when you wind it after it has stopped. So see what happens when i get it back.
I bought same watch year ago, later realizing that it has plastic escapement. Regret it immediately. Plus some watch makers said that it can't be regulated, some say it can be regulated but it is very difficult. So can it be regulated and fully serviced? Thank you. Glad I've found your channel.
First of all, you look surprised by this. This should be common knowledge for a watchmaker. Second, the pallet fork is not just "plastic": it is a synthetic material; but so are the rubies on a classic pallet fork. Why did they do this;? Well to make an affordable 80 hour power reserve watch. It is more affordable because placing the rubies on the pallet fork, is one of the only tasks that requires manual intervention and that is expensive. As you may know, there is not just one Powermatic 80 movement. There are several. The ones with number C07.1xx, with the synthetic pallet fork, the C07.6xx with a classic pallet fork and the C07.8xx witjh a classic pallet fork and a silicium hairspring. The synthetic pallet fork is not necessarily worse than the classic pallet fork. It all depends on the material that was used.
Thanks for explaining the the movement issues. Please can you explain how likely these parts are to fail? Do you think that Tissot expect these watches or movements to be disposable ie just replace the movement rather than repair it? Many thanks
When servicing, they replace the entire movement. This to me is like replacing the actial watch. There is no connection with a movement that is simply replaced at every service.
Any moderately priced mechanical could just have the movement replaced, including the Seiko 7s26, which he just made a video about speaking well of it.@@anandmorris
I don't see it as being a big deal. The watch will work for 5 years when it will need to be serviced. These parts can be replaced as part of the service, if needed.
@@anandmorris People keep repeating this without any evidence. These are just as serviceable as the regular 2824. Tissot maintenance procedure states that ANY MOVEMENT may be replaced OR repaired. This was introduced even before any of the Powermatic movement family.
@@anandmorris It all comes down to economics. Would you pay a shop $10,000.00 to meticulously rebuild your car engine or would you rather pay him $5,000.00 to install a brand new crate engine from the original manufacturer?
Questions: If you replaced those plastic parts with the traditional metal ones, would the watch run any better? You can test that yourself. Do you estimate that the plastic escapement will have a shorter or longer life than the traditional one? Why? If you could have a movement made of ANY metal or metals you choose, what metals would you choose, cost no object.
Objectively plastic should be more durable and lubricant free. Anyway I knew about this from the internet. There is the same movement with the metal part in the Gentlemen line if I'm not mistaken.
@@yehoshuacirt8645 that's what I would have thought - lower friction coefficient on plastics should result in less wear. So maybe it's not such a bad thing that the pallet fork is plastic?
Thanks for this informative video! I just wish it could have been posted, and in my suggested videos before literally bought this exact watch a little over a year ago. It sucks that what I had thought was a nice watch, is actually a mere conveyance of a nice quality watch.
Your point is, that there is a plastic part. Are there problems with it? Did it cause problems in the movement you rapaired? I like metal, but high quality plastics are also used in guns. And they last.
What’s your thought on the Le Locle’s 3 bar water resistance rating? It’s my understanding restating that I shouldn’t swim in my Le Locle, but I’ve recently seen some info saying that watch makers may dismiss that and say it’s no big deal to swim in it.
Say what you want, but my PRX loses about 1 min every 6 months. Very impressive accuracy for a movement made by robots. Regarding the reliability, only time will tell. But after almost 3 years, I'm still satisfied.
Look, the thing is - this doesn’t save particularly much money, they have to have a reason for it. Presumably it’s not accuracy, except perhaps in magnetized environments, maybe it’s longevity? It’s entirely possible for plastic on plastic contact to last longer than jewel on metal. Nothing else about the movement seems different from the traditional versions. If it was actually cost optimized it would look *very* different.
The synthetic parts have less friction, are lighter and contribute to the longer power reserve. I agree that they are probably not much if any cheaper to produce. It allows them to use a thinner and longer spring in the barrel to get longer reserve. The reduced beat rate also contributes to the longer power reserve. Some don't like the slower beat rate but most old quality watches used the same slower beat rate. Higher beat rates give a smoother second hand sweep and may contribute to higher accuracy but they also will wear faster and have reduced reserve time.
My understanding is that there are different grades of the powermatic movement with the metal parts 100% servicable. Also i really dont get why a diposable movement is that big a deal. If popping in a new one is cheaper than servicing by all means ill take the new movement.
This is true. As for the grade with the plastic escapement (delrin) this movement is also perfectly serviceable. It just has a plastic escapement. Truth is regardless of what grade or even if it was a 2824 old school movement, swatch group will just put a new movement in as it names more sense.
Is it plastic or sintered ceramic, did you try to scratch the part? The new generation composite/ceramics can look glossy like plastic but they are actually hard like the enamel on your teeth.
Some plastics, such as PEEK, can have excellent physical properties but I doubt they went down that road as they are more expensive weight-for-weight than metal
This guy dosn't care if the composite used is a better choice, or if it helped make Tissot able to make other parts of the watch better on the price point, he just wants to cry about how "plastic bad".
Ive been wearing a prx pm80 since 2021 almost daily, and i have not had any issues with reliability or accuracy so far. Granted its nothing like my GS speingdrive, but imo my prx is a tough beater of a time piece, i really enjoy it.
Two years is far too short a period to draw any conclusions. Most of my watches are over fifty year old. I suspect the life of those plastic components is around five years, based on experience.
This is amazing, thank you for this video. The YT watch community has a lot of influencer that do seem to know a lot about watches but, I really think we need ACTUAL watchmakers taking the lead and breaking things down like this. I mean how would we as watch enthusiasts ever know about something like this? I’d never risk opening up a movement so my trust would be totally in the hands of the maker 😮
Just got me a €2,- Chinese digital watch, I'll put it on a €12,- NATO. Asians all have Hobbit sized wrists. It runs perfectly, has no bling, hasd date, 24h clock. day, month. The extras I don't use, ( alarm and stopwatch). It gives me: "One Ping only please!" every hour. It is more fun to wear than that " 't is zot" I think :)
Also basically when you take the watch in for its periodic service, you’ll have to replace the pallet fork which probably only cost a few bucks. Not a big deal. There’s a reason why Tissots cost what they cost.
The Powermatic movements are built with quality parts but entirely by automated processes. No human labour for the actual construction and assembly. This keeps the costs down and increases consistency by minimizing the possibility of human error.
Pity the less than knowledgeable consumer, and newbie to mechanical watches, who does not read and understand the forums, but relies instead on the advertising hype spewed out by the likes of Tissot
What is the plastic, or are you just going "argh, plastic" without knowing anything about it? Some plastics handle wear better than metals. What plastic is it?
So I would like to know more about the real-world longevity of these. Is this plastic in fact wearing out? I see a lot of folks being offended that it's there, but I don't really see the proof that it is the failure point of these watches. And as for the watches being disposable, is anyone really repairing cheap Seiko movements that everyone swears by? When I've brought Seikos into watchmakers, they've said they'll replace rather than repairing the movement. I'm just not sure there's a world where anyone's Tissot movement would have been cost effective to repair.
THe Powermatic 80 C07.111 movement was introduced in 2013 according to an article I just read. I haven't heard of any problems. You don't send it to Tissot for service if you don't want the movement replaced. It won't cost much to have the plastic parts replaced with the service.
I’m with you. People are complaining about what MIGHT happen. If you want a better watch, just buy one. Tissot doesn’t lie about what’s inside, and if you thought you were getting a quality Swiss movement in an $800 watch you really have no one to blame but yourself.
@@lebojay Other than the synthetic escapement and pallet forks and redesigned main spring these movements are almost identical to the 2824 that everyone loves. It costs less for Tissot to replace the movement at service time than to pay a watch maker to service it. Labour costs are the killer here. They are as serviceable as any other movement but economics are the driving factor.
several variations of this movement. lots of confusion. if it has 23 jewels its plastic escapement. if it has 25 jewels its metal. extra jewels for the escapement. hope this helps clear up some of the confusion.
A firm statement Kalle, but I agree with you. I almost bought this watch, because I like the looks of it. But now seeing this "quality", I pass on this one....
Its ‘plastic’ but what kind fo plastic? Because plastic can be extremely durable and strong. Sometimes stronger than metel, the word plastic is very vague
I bought a PR100 on Jomashop for about 200USD + taxes and shipping to Europe. That Powermatic 80 version with the plastic fork. I have to say, I was very positively suprised by the quality of the watch for that price, it was far better than a Seiko 5 costing the same. Even with the exhibition case, the calibre looks decent, comparing to the Seiko 7S26. I dont mind having plastic parts for such a nice watch for that price. Also, the accuracy of watch is on the COSC level, there was even a series of PR100 for less then 250USD with the certificate - same as Tudor :D In my opinion, Tissot and the Swatch is trying to do some real life testing or maybe experiments with the large amount of low-tier watches :-) I dont mind, for that price, it makes sense, on the other hand, I would not pay the full price for Powermatic 80 in PRX (like - 800 USD in Europe). Not speaking about that Sistem51 in the Swatchplain. On the other hand, I was able to service my Seikos for very small amount of money, and I would doubt, if a standard service is even possible with the Plastomatic... But its still running well and I did not heard any actual complaints about the quality of plastick P80s, yet. Unlike for the infamous sistem51, which seems to be piece of garbage about even 1 year of usage...
Potential Tissot customer...lost.😮
Wow!!!!!
I was going to buy the automatic but now i will just buy the quartz, maybe.
@@ediri8354 Or buy a 25 jewel version, like the Gentleman. It has a normal escapement but a silicon.based hairspring - if thats not too plastic-like for you :-)
Finally, someone who is not gushing about the Tissot Powermatic 80 movement.
Thank you so much for your honesty.
The watchmakers I watch don’t gush about, paid reviewers do
@@richplant2205 when will people realise that youtubers aren't reviewers, they're an extension of a company's marketing department?
There's a few versions of the powermatic 80, the Tissot Gentleman version has no plastic parts.
The general consensus about the movement is negetive only. I got 2 tissot watches and both are quartz. Tissot is basically a quarts watch company, if you go for their quartz varients you will be very happy for the value they provide. The fit and finish are usually two price bracket higher than what they sell for.
Just never get their automatic watches.
get the older ones with the eta.
Hello Kalle, wonderful video. Big fan of your work, Christiaan Huygens would be proud!
I sent you an urgent email, forgive me for pestering you about it here, but please let me know your thoughts as, well, time is of the essence.
Thanks again and keep up the great work.
Best regards,
TGV
Look who's here!
Plastic escape wheel, plastic pallet fork, plastic durability.... Personally, I think Tissot should use wood instead of plastic, which would be more environmentally friendly, and in addition, the watch would generate a nice supply of very fine sawdust to mop up any surplus moebius left hanging around the escapement.
They did make a wooden watch once. In the 1970s. A friend had one and although rather novel didn't last long.
Ok but how is wood from chopped trees eco friendly???
Bio ceramic
This is a very ignorant comment in sorry. Those plastic parts are derlin which is very strong and used in many industries and heavy equipment. Just as plastic and rubber make a gshock more resistant than any steel watch, plastic can perform other functions just as good or better than metal. The reason you don’t like it is because when you were growing up you were told plastic was cheap and bad. But in fact there’s no reason why plastic couldn’t do the function properly
@@enriquesb1528 I agree, and many of these plastic parts are self-lubricating, which makes them last longer between servicing.
You are absolutely right. The watch industry is no better than others. Minimising input while maximising revenue. All wrapped up in a few warm words.
Made a nice change from the usual watch content, wish there were more channels exposing this kind of cost cutting.
If you compare the plastic escapement of the Swatch 2840 - used in the pre-Sistem 51 - you will find exactly this pallet fork and escapement wheel. It isn't even new, it is old... And the major joke: The pallet fork needs lubrication, a special Moebius grease.
Exactly. I'm no expert on watches in general, but people shouldn't be too indignant about a plastic escapement because there is a genuine reason for it. Plastic, or more likely, nylon, is a better shock absorber and therefore helps with vibration, which is precisely why it's the escapement and not so much other parts that is made of the offending material.
Don't believe me? Go kick the side of your car and see what happens. well preferably don't as it will most likely leave a big dent. Now go kick the side of your refuse bin with the same force. What happens? No dent. So I know people will have a hard time accepting this, but it's actually an improvement. You won't find it in high end watches of course, because people don't expect it and manufacturers know what their response will be but they would use it if they could.
This Le Locle is actually a really nice watch by the way if you can accept it for what it is. I picked one up for under £400 in the January sales from a local jeweller, very happy with it and it definitely looks like it cost a lot more.
@@severnsea : plastic is flexible and VERY bad at resisting friction, which is exactly the opposite of you want for the escapement. Also, plastics hardens and becomes brittle. It also shrinks. In something made with incredibly small tolerances, this is just a very bad idea. But in all reality, these watches are exactly like Seiko 5, you buy it, wear it for a few years until it starts slowing down, throw it in a drawer and buy something else....and Swatch group knows that. They want you to buy new watches, not service them.
@@keesketsers5866 bs. Anyone with half a brain cell will replace the movement in a Seiko 5, NH35/36s are so cheap there's literally no reason not to do it, for 30 euros the watch is good for another 15 years.
Tissot is Swatch's lowest tier brand. Boomers get upset about what they think is plastic. It does its job well. Anyway, a few steps up the Swatch ladder to Certina and they don't use this "plastic" part. I wonder what this guy thinks if the "plastic" part in the Omega Speedmaster movement 😂
Swatch is Swatch's lowest tier brand.
In many areas of engineering and manufacturing, "engineered plastics" are the right choice. This refers to plastics that are made with certain characteristics to high standards. They have known properties and pass rigorous testing. I don't know if that is the quality level of the material for these watch parts. In any case, I am a bit of a traditionalist about mechanical watches and feel these should be made from stainless steel or brass regardless of the plastics that are available. Keep in mind though that the use of plastics for some parts _may_ be a well-considered, engineering decision.
I have this watch in its original form, before the Powermatic 80. It keeps time better than my CHR Ward chronometer which was over double the price, as does my other Tissot (T Sport from 2010).
Tissot are excellent watches - accurate and great value for money.
I have this watch. It works great, lovely piece. Plastic: Does it matter if a) it works well, and b) it has durability, c) it reduces wear? But yeah, your rage is palpable.
Yes it is good for the time of warranty.
That's major COPE. Just admit it's 🚮🚮🚮🚮
precisely.
@@rosomak8244why must you lie?
I have one 3-year-old seastar 2000 and 5-year-old seastar 1000, the difference is 3-4 secs/MONTH. Secondly, this is a serviceable model, it is not difficult to change any gears. 🤡
@@80for80 What cope? He asked the question if the plastic part makes a difference in your day-to-day life. He didnt even disagree with him.
There’s a reason why Tissot spelled backwards is “Toss it”. They’ve been making bad decisions. I’ve seen it with the Swissmatic… a literal unserviceable movement because it’s glued together (no screws). What the actual hell.
If not mistaking: the Swissmatic is based on the System 51 (which was mfgr. for Swatch), incredibly the watches which they put the El-cheapo movements inside really look good (the old saying: if it’s too good to be true, it ain’t), the difference in a quality movement are very small money wise. ETA needs better administrators to survive their reputation of quality products.😢
Tissot is part of swatch group as well as certina,hamilton etc. And they don t make their own decisions. If swatch group decides that c07.111 will be the new standard, it will be the new standard
ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING. I have had some Tissots with good results. Currently still have the NON-Powermatic Visodate with less power reserve but more smoothness regarding the second hand. I presume Tissot will explain away the plastic escapement as a weight-saving measure as well as a means to keep the cost to the consumer down. At least Hamilton spelled backwards is Notlimah which has no negative connotation.
Hamilton use the same ETA based movement, but I have to say mine runs 0-+1+seconds a day so a tiny piece of plastic doesn't bother me as long as the watch runs accuracy.,... which it does, they say it's for magnetic reasons which is fare enough
There's several versions os the Powematico 80 movements and the plastic component is not present in all of them, such in the Ballade Cosc and Seastar.
I would assume that the Powermatic 80 Longines don’t have the plastic parts either ?
You sure the seastar doesn't have that plastic part? Because I have one and maybe it has plastic pallet fork in it too.
@@intisarmuhtadee1117 When it says 23 jewels it hast the plastic parts, 25 jewels doesn't have the plastic parts
Exactly! We're missing half the story!
C071** plastic ,C076** metal, C078** Metal ( you can see this on your movment )
I have a PR100 Powermatic 80 with plastic escapement. I have had it for 2 years as my daily driver and currently runs at +2 sec/day. The most accurate watch I have owned. Yeah, same accuracy as an coaxial METAS Omega.
Everyone is fast to jump to PLASTIC = BAD but do we actually have any data substantiating that these will wear out that much faster than a metal palette fork?
Thank you for being honest as a professional in watchmaking.. because not everybody know about that "plastic" thing, and the advertising obviously not mentioning that thing very clear.. so, if we're not a watch enthusiast, maybe we didn't even notice about that problem in long term usage.
That's also the reason I choose the green Tissot PRX 40mm in quartz version.. because for the price it's ask, I think it's worth the value.
How about you get the Tissot Gentleman Silicium? It has the ETA.C07.811 which has synthetic escapement.
It’s well known that the C07.111 has a plastic escapement. C07.6xx version has a regular escapement. C07.8xx version has a regular escapement plus a silicon balance spring. I agree, plastic pallet fork and escape wheel has no place in a Swiss movement. C07.1xx movements are considered disposable- the movement typically costs less than a service. All the auto Tissot PRX line has the plastic escapement. The Gentleman line has the regular escapement. I’m somewhat surprised to learn the plastic escapement (C07.1xx) is in the Le Locle line which is Tissot’s biggest seller worldwide. I’m not a fan of the line, which costs basically the same as the Gentleman. I guess the takeaway is be suspicious of a modified/updated 2824 ETA movement with 23 jewels lol (they are here to stay)
Thank you for details. This means my Gentleman with 25 jewels and C08711 has a regular escapement, for what it´s worth. I´m very happy with how it runs anyway.
Every so often Amazon drops the price of the Powematic 80 Gentleman watch to $425. Right now they have the blue dial version for $425. At least with the Tissot Gentlemen watch you get the regular escapement and not a plastic one like in the PRX. Of course there are still other minor problems like people complaining about the bracket having sharp edges.
is this a new thing? I wonder if my old LeLocle (not powermatic - T41.1.423.33) has this plastic thingy or not
In my Atlantic seacrest is regular and has 2824-2 too but its the 25 jewell option
Man even the Seiko 7S26 which has no hand winding/hacking has a jeweled pallet fork. Even the Miyota 8200a has a jeweled pallet fork. What even is this garbage.
Wow really would not expect plastic from Tissot!! I’m almost as peeved as you Kalle 🤣 almost lol thanks for the vid.
Yes, that's the problem with the 23 jewel powermatic 80.
Although the plastic part should last long and be durable.
The 25 jewel version in Hamilton and mido doesn't have the plastic parts if your interested in those instead.
I believe the plastic has some amazing characteristics such as high hardness and low friction, i don't think it's a bad aspect, new materials are part of any engineer life. We need to see how it goes on the field. So far i think Tissot is doing pretty well if you consider the amount of PRX out there.
When you buy a watch which claims to have "high tech elements", you expect that to include jewels at the high friction points. There is no plastic, no matter how fancy shmansy it may be that is more effective, more advanced, more "high tech" or more desireable than rubies.
@@schell0118 But jewels are lower tech than modern plastics. I immediately thought of a non-traditional material when the escapement was described as "high-tech". Plastic was an option. Some plastics are literally the least-wearing or strongest-per-diameter materials known to mankind.
@@zbnmth I agree. Unfortunately it is only a plus to those who approach these issues from an engineering aspect. Emotionally, to most people, it is plastic. I get both sides of the argument.
@@ddo7802 Same! The idea of a ruby part near your wrist is romantic. Geology and stuff.
Absolutely, especially if you consider that ETA builds movements with that plastic escapement since 1991! So they got a little bit over 30 years of experience with that.
"Dangerously close to fraud". I agree a 100%!!!
I learned this a while ago and it completely blew me away! From one grumpy old man to another, it is just another step backward for them. We see again the slow and painful demise of a once great watchmaker. Excellent video my friend, people need to know what they are buying.
Not to mention that you can't regulate any of these movements they're putting into their entry level watches.
@@DISK2000 It is designed to use 5-10 years, then toss it and buy again. No, thanks i just buy a similar seiko, orient or citizen automatic, with better economic value (I do not comment on resale value.)
The Swatch Group is killing it, literally. ‘Swiss Made’ has become a mockery, especially for entry-level watches!
Swiss made means nothing to me.
there is "Honk Kong" written on the inside of the case cap on quartz version :) Sometimes it is hidden with black rubber glued on it.
@@TomasWatchReviews There isn't a quartz version of this watch.
Isn't the rule something like 60% of the value has to be Swiss made? Better than it was, it used to be 50% until a few years ago. To be honest it's not like it was a century ago, the rest of the world has caught up and a watch doesn't have to be Swiss to be a good watch. I know the purists won't agree but, hey, nobody cares what watch you wear anyway. Most people these days wouldn't know one brand from another.
@@TomasWatchReviews Which watch are you referring to?
plastic = lighter parts = longer power reserve
I would sell it the second I figured it out! I coukdnt wear it as it woukd bother and annoy me too much .Just shows watches selling at inflated prices not worth it.These company's better watch out. Things like this hurt the name and I woukd avoid altogether. Watch is a LUXURY and a manufacturer shoots themselves in the foot cheating out like this
I hope this goes viral. Also if we don't buy their scrap then they will be forced to change.
Don’t believe their Swiss fairytales.
The beauty of quartz confirmed.
Sir...as an Aircraft Tech and engineer Ive noticed a huge lowering of quality from RR engines to airframe fitment (Doors falling off at 17K feet). Im retired now, my peers always wanted to do quality work to maintain Airworthiness but employees today are more interested in their tick tock then setting engine core bearing tolerances.
The Tissot Gentleman use the C07.811 escapement with a silicone hairspring, but a traditional escapement, if a buyer feels "plastic" has nothing to do in an escapement, but want a Tissot with 80 h power reserve.
The 23 jewel version of Powermatic 80 has plastic escapement (but a metallic hairspring). The 25 jewel version has mettalic escapement with the two extra jewels located at the fork, but a silcon-based hairspring.
Thanks for pointing this out. Looking at some Tissots, will stick to the 25 jewel versions.
The plastic parts (escape wheel & pallet fork) only apply to the Tissot PRX Powermatic 80 watch, which carries a C07.111 movement (23 juwels). The new Tissot Gentlemen Powermatic 80 watch has a C07.811 movement with all metal parts, a silicon balance spring and 25 juwels.
I believe you are correct, Sir. This is why I got myself a Gentleman. I believe the C07.111 is also in a number of other Tissot and Swatch group models though. LeLocle has it too I think
I just panicked thinking I had bought a 'plastic' watch 😒so I got it under the microscope... thankfully, it turns out that you are correct and the Gentleman is a different movement number!... Phew ☺
I agree i have a 25 jewels powermatic 80 and all is well with the full metal parts plus silicon is used in many higher ETA calibre, so be careful only with the 23 jewels IMO
The first thing to expect among the Powermatic 80 temperature options is that there is no single mechanism with this name. There are multiple Powermatic 80 options with small but important changes according to functions and materials. The first group consists of the version with 23 jewels (80.111, 80.111 COSC, 80.121), the second group consists of 25 jewel mechanisms (80.601, 80.661, 80.811 with silicon balance spring and 80.811 COSC). One of the discussions is the use of delrin, a plastic derivative, in the mechanism. Plastic is a word that does not inspire confidence in people, but it is not from the plastics in delrin. It is an engineering product with DuPont production, moisture distribution, hard, low values and high wear resistance, and is also resistant to high temperatures. There is no delrin in Powermatic 80 Mechanisms with silicon balance spring or COSC feature.
The calculation speed setting of the system I mentioned above is adjusted by laser in the factory during the production phase and even standard parts are shown close to COSC qualifications. Powermatic 80 is a new System developed with high technology and includes solutions focused on the shortcomings of ETA 2824-2, therefore it has a system that is both robust and extremely stable. It is seen that even when compared to much more expensive mechanisms, it does not fall behind in terms of its stability, on the contrary, it performs better.
A commenter on one of the reviews posted the below previously. I had understood the plastic parts were one of the features of the specific movement.
The rate is adjustable by adjusting the eccentric screw as it's a free sprung balance.
The plastic part is a Nivachron hairspring that was co-developed with swatch group and APRP, with that it made the watch anti-magnetic, and pallet fork with the escape wheel made out of the composite, it createsless friction and less impact. You know good things for a hairspring.
C07 movements are highly serviceable, so it's not just throwaway movement, they use special lubricant compared to the common swiss lever 9415 oil which if other watchmaker out there have the proper lubricant they could fix this watch too. They exchange the movement so the turn around time of servicing is faster while the old movement is sent to Switzerland to be serviced.
If I want a bunch of plastic bits I'll buy a quartz
I dont get the point of most people calling it out and especially I dont understand this video. Sure I get Tissot probably could have made a more elegant solution than using plastic parts. But is the issue here that it is not "high tech", or that it just shouldnt have plastic? Because the powermatic 80 was designed to have a longer power reserve at a lower price. There are of course hi beat movements with higher power reserves but none in this price range except for the powermatic. It needs the plastic parts to reduce moment of inertia and to help the weaker beat rate to actually keep on beating. Someone in a youtube video tried swapping the fork and escape wheel out for genuine 2824 metal parts and it could not run sustained. I think its not justified that the powermatic 80 gets so much smack, although I agree it could have been solved more elegantly and that many powermatic 80 models are very expensive to use a mechanism like that, even though still not as expensive as hi beat high power reserve models.
That's why I only collect vintage mechanical watches and it is a pleasure seeing you repair them
I love objective channels like this, dissecting popular brands’ flagships and gave honest opinion about them. Really well-made video.
All this fuss about a plastic part lol 😂😂😂 I bought two PRX80s … by the time that plastic part wears out I’ll be worn out.
What are the specs of the plastic? Just because it is plastic doesn't mean it is bad. Are Magpul magazines bad because they eliminated the steel feed lips? Of course not. It is not as simple as "plastic bad!"
My Tissot Gentlemen with the Powermatic 80 is the most accurate mechanical watch I own from my testing, after wearing for 14 days I calculated it was only 0.86 seconds per day slow.
your Gentlemen does not have plastic parts. It has c80.811, which uses the traditional pallet fork and silicium hairspring
I appreciate the insight into these kind of practices. Without digging further, the movement and its finishing looked so nice (even in the display case back).
Is there any argument from a technical side for a plastic escapement, or is it just cost savings?
I'm curious if the impulse jewel is plastic as well. Otherwise the ruby might slowly chew away at the pallet fork? Some plastics have very good abrasion qualities though. Also curious about the long term stability of the plastic it self.
It has 2 less jewels than the normal 25. Guess where those go...
Was the escape wheel plastic as well?
@@dale4034 Yes
The sellita equivalent movement, sw200 has 26 jewel. Where does that extra jewel go?
I really appreciate that you are making this kind of video. Awesome🙏 Thank you.
Is it even possible to service this movement or regulate it? Thanks!
I gifted my stepfather the exact same watch and serviced it last year. Thankfully for him and me it was the previous 'upgraded lol' version and has a true eta 2824-2 inside 👍🏽
High tech escapement 😂
Did you know it had been upgraded when you bought it? Or was it a happy surprise?
@@Revenant.Wristwatch I knew it had a 2482-2 inside prior to purchase (cannot go wrong with that movement) but I certainly didn't know that they had gone and done this on the new versions :(
Is it very different than the plastic parts in the 7750 to reduce friction and lubrication? Another question: can the escape wheel and pallet fork be swapped for the ones in the other iterations of the movement with 25 jewels? Another question: what is the lifespan of the parts-do they wear out or are they spec’d to last based on the forces they’re exposed to.
The idea is that Tissot made plastic movements before they were part of Swatch and ETA has used these parts (polymer pallet fork and escape wheel) in the Swatch irony. They seem to keep working. Is it to save money or save on service requirements? How long do the parts last?
The consumer ultimately has a strong influence since many for example think 28800 indicates finer whereas 21600 is inferior. What about haute horologerie where low beat is more the norm.
Another common misinformation is that one can’t adjust the timekeeping as it’s adjusted with laser at the factory. BS. Carl pointed out the inertial weights and the free sprung balance are usually found on high end watches like Patek and Rolex.
If it was cost saving why would they include the free sprung balance?
Oh geez !!! 😮 plastic parts !!!!
What going on with Tissot it’s a shame !!
Thank you Kalle to show us this horrible things !!
i knew about this but i feel conflicted. Personally i find le locle to be beautiful and i want it, but it had this issue.
Any way to avoid / alleviate / aftermarket upgrade it?
Why do you think the Swatch Group used polymer to make the escapement? Why all that trouble? Does it really help save a lot of money? The answer is no. It’s actually more complicated to use polymer than brass or steel to make an escapement. Swatch Group intentionally chose polymer because it reduces ware and tear and it increases the lubrication. I m surprised a watchmaker like you don’t understand something so simple.
Wow! Thanks for the heads up. It's unbelievable, yet, believable.
What is unbelievable? None of this is a secret. Did you expect the $800 watch to have a $500 movement in it?
C'est dans l'air du temps, on produit à bas coût et on vend cher, c'est de l'argent facile et une vision à très court terme. Les chinois pendant ce temps progressent tous les jours... Mais je ne suis qu'un petit horloger de province sans grande expérience.
This movement is part of a family of 3 movement Tissot is using. You have the C07.111, the C07.601 and the C07.811. The 111 comes with 23 jewels and the 'high tech escapement' without the 2 pallet fork jewels, hence 23. The 601 uses normal materials, the 811 has a silicon hairspring. I personally checked. I have the 811 version, on which, so far, I do not have any problems. I personally think that plastic parts in a watch are a no-no, however, there are a lot of Seikos using plastic stuff on places Seiko says improves the function of the watch. Whilst that might be the case, in this specific case, I have to agree with Kalle: This is bordering on pure fraud, is misleading, and by no means are these parts anywhere near 'high tech'. I have to say, I am glad I bought the part which is not containing the plastic, because all in all, and Kalle also mentions this, the movement itself based on the ETA 2824-2 is a solid movement
Yes, especially the .601 and .811 movements are perfectly nice automatics with 3+ days power reserve, _except_ that you can't buy parts from the manufacturer so you'd have to rely on donor movements. I'd prefer an SW200-1 -- or rather spend a bit more and get an SW300-1 (Sellita's ETA 2892-A2 clone). I'd gladly give up some power reserve to be more confident about maintaining the movement long term (w/o sending the watch to its maker & having the movement replaced). I don't like this idea of trashing a perfectly nice movement that just needs service.
Yes. My Powermatic says 25 jewels. And ‘silicon balance spring’ on the automatic movement plate. Gentleman line. Glad I avoided that PRX.
Thank you for touching this “great strategy” of such respected brand! I found such plastic escapement many many years ago on one of Chinese “no name movement”. It was strange, cheap and monstrous decision towards the client, just to sell the watch and forgot anything…. And now we see this in watches there engraved on the oscillating weight - 1853! For what?! Does it means they find a decision of the ages?
Hello, I am thinking of buying a Tissot chronograph with a C02.211 which has a plastic pallet form and escapement wheel. Provided it is cared for appropriately, do you think it is worth it?
Is the ETA C26.111 that seems to be replacing the ETA 2671 in alot of ladies watches also have the same plastic parts? Can't find any info on it.
That's why I would never touch Powermatic 80 movement. I would buy their quartz watches, maybe other automatic movements BUT NEVER EVER Powermatic 80.
Also Swatch markets their SISTEM 51 movement with "exceptional anti-magnetic qualities" I wonder why
I would prefer facts and data from a timegrapher and time between replacement at service intervals to emotional indignation. If the beat error, vibration, and energy consumption were less for nylon over metal, and the Nylon escapement lasts 3 service intervals or 10 years, with identical ETA 2824 movements, the nylon escapement is product improvement. Manufacturers choosing this material should be transparent about it. Nylon should not be substituted if it degrades performance or reasonable endurance expectations.
I put mine on a timegrapher today. +4 spd, amplitude 230, beat error 1.2 ms.
Hi, so is it silicon or plastic? Is there anyway to test it to be sure? This movement has been in use for a number of years now, how is the feedback from custoners?
Plastic. We never hear feedback from those who bought in the early days, 2013-2014. I don't think there's anything wrong with the movement. It's the idea that Swatch broke with tradition and just to save a very small amount of money.
@@robertbrandywine It's not just to save money. It actually works better when trying to get the longer power reserve. Requires less energy to stay consistent and accurate. That way they can use a longer and thinner main spring to get the 80hr reserve.
thanks for this wonderful insight. It's incredible how managers risk destroying a company taking such stupid decisions. I hope you'll expose more of them.
I have a seastar in for repair at the mo, the crown wont close and the rotor spins when you wind it after it has stopped. So see what happens when i get it back.
I bought same watch year ago, later realizing that it has plastic escapement. Regret it immediately. Plus some watch makers said that it can't be regulated, some say it can be regulated but it is very difficult. So can it be regulated and fully serviced? Thank you. Glad I've found your channel.
It can be regulated but it is more difficult. And yes it can be fully serviced.
Nice video! So, which you recommended like 'ok' auto-machine swiss and japan made? Thanks!
Thank you Mister, for educating us.
First of all, you look surprised by this. This should be common knowledge for a watchmaker.
Second, the pallet fork is not just "plastic": it is a synthetic material; but so are the rubies on a classic pallet fork. Why did they do this;? Well to make an affordable 80 hour power reserve watch. It is more affordable because placing the rubies on the pallet fork, is one of the only tasks that requires manual intervention and that is expensive.
As you may know, there is not just one Powermatic 80 movement. There are several. The ones with number C07.1xx, with the synthetic pallet fork, the C07.6xx with a classic pallet fork and the C07.8xx witjh a classic pallet fork and a silicium hairspring.
The synthetic pallet fork is not necessarily worse than the classic pallet fork. It all depends on the material that was used.
this watch and this colour are exactly what on my wrist right now lol.
I'm planning to buy a tissot excelence 18k gold with ETA caliber 2892-A2 ND. Is this a good choice? Thanks in advance!
In a word, yes!
@richardmclean5913 thanks , already bought the watch. The winding rotor is a bit noisy otherwise a great watch.
Thanks for explaining the the movement issues. Please can you explain how likely these parts are to fail? Do you think that Tissot expect these watches or movements to be disposable ie just replace the movement rather than repair it? Many thanks
When servicing, they replace the entire movement. This to me is like replacing the actial watch. There is no connection with a movement that is simply replaced at every service.
Any moderately priced mechanical could just have the movement replaced, including the Seiko 7s26, which he just made a video about speaking well of it.@@anandmorris
I don't see it as being a big deal. The watch will work for 5 years when it will need to be serviced. These parts can be replaced as part of the service, if needed.
@@anandmorris People keep repeating this without any evidence. These are just as serviceable as the regular 2824. Tissot maintenance procedure states that ANY MOVEMENT may be replaced OR repaired. This was introduced even before any of the Powermatic movement family.
@@anandmorris It all comes down to economics. Would you pay a shop $10,000.00 to meticulously rebuild your car engine or would you rather pay him $5,000.00 to install a brand new crate engine from the original manufacturer?
Thank you. I was honestly thinking about buying a Tissot. Not now.
Questions: If you replaced those plastic parts with the traditional metal ones, would the watch run any better? You can test that yourself. Do you estimate that the plastic escapement will have a shorter or longer life than the traditional one? Why? If you could have a movement made of ANY metal or metals you choose, what metals would you choose, cost no object.
Objectively plastic should be more durable and lubricant free. Anyway I knew about this from the internet. There is the same movement with the metal part in the Gentlemen line if I'm not mistaken.
@@yehoshuacirt8645 that's what I would have thought - lower friction coefficient on plastics should result in less wear. So maybe it's not such a bad thing that the pallet fork is plastic?
Thanks for this informative video! I just wish it could have been posted, and in my suggested videos before literally bought this exact watch a little over a year ago. It sucks that what I had thought was a nice watch, is actually a mere conveyance of a nice quality watch.
I thought it was public knowledge that the powermatic 80 had a plastic escapement.
It is!
Hey guys is the POWERMATIC 80.111 the same with plastic parts?
Yes it's sad but in England Tissot has prices that make one wonder why they are so cheap.
And you have shown us why !!
Your point is, that there is a plastic part. Are there problems with it? Did it cause problems in the movement you rapaired? I like metal, but high quality plastics are also used in guns. And they last.
This is why I’m keeping my 1973 Tissot chronograph PR516 the new stuff is not so good
What’s your thought on the Le Locle’s 3 bar water resistance rating? It’s my understanding restating that I shouldn’t swim in my Le Locle, but I’ve recently seen some info saying that watch makers may dismiss that and say it’s no big deal to swim in it.
They would call it high-tech carbon composite. It’s what makes the escapement ‘high-tech’. 😄 Thank you for sharing!
Yeah. It doesn’t say “high quality”, it says “high tech”. Those are not the same thing.
Say what you want, but my PRX loses about 1 min every 6 months. Very impressive accuracy for a movement made by robots. Regarding the reliability, only time will tell. But after almost 3 years, I'm still satisfied.
And this is wearing it daily for almost 3 years.
Look, the thing is - this doesn’t save particularly much money, they have to have a reason for it. Presumably it’s not accuracy, except perhaps in magnetized environments, maybe it’s longevity? It’s entirely possible for plastic on plastic contact to last longer than jewel on metal.
Nothing else about the movement seems different from the traditional versions. If it was actually cost optimized it would look *very* different.
The synthetic parts have less friction, are lighter and contribute to the longer power reserve. I agree that they are probably not much if any cheaper to produce. It allows them to use a thinner and longer spring in the barrel to get longer reserve. The reduced beat rate also contributes to the longer power reserve. Some don't like the slower beat rate but most old quality watches used the same slower beat rate. Higher beat rates give a smoother second hand sweep and may contribute to higher accuracy but they also will wear faster and have reduced reserve time.
I’m subscribed to your channel but just saw this, what a surprise! Thanks for the revelation and education!
My understanding is that there are different grades of the powermatic movement with the metal parts 100% servicable. Also i really dont get why a diposable movement is that big a deal. If popping in a new one is cheaper than servicing by all means ill take the new movement.
This is true. As for the grade with the plastic escapement (delrin) this movement is also perfectly serviceable. It just has a plastic escapement. Truth is regardless of what grade or even if it was a 2824 old school movement, swatch group will just put a new movement in as it names more sense.
100% I would rather have a brand new movement rather than old worn out “serviced” parts
Sir, I have tissot visodate watch, everyday forward 3 minutes, I could not open the back case, do me a favour, how can I open it?
Let's hope they don't come up with the idea of building a plastic coaxial escapement. George Daniels, had turned in his grave. RIP.
Is it possible to remove the plastic parts and replace them with metal parts?
Thanks for showing this. I would be horrified to see this in my expensive watch.
Is it plastic or sintered ceramic, did you try to scratch the part?
The new generation composite/ceramics can look glossy like plastic but they are actually hard like the enamel on your teeth.
Some plastics, such as PEEK, can have excellent physical properties but I doubt they went down that road as they are more expensive weight-for-weight than metal
This guy dosn't care if the composite used is a better choice, or if it helped make Tissot able to make other parts of the watch better on the price point, he just wants to cry about how "plastic bad".
Ive been wearing a prx pm80 since 2021 almost daily, and i have not had any issues with reliability or accuracy so far. Granted its nothing like my GS speingdrive, but imo my prx is a tough beater of a time piece, i really enjoy it.
Good. This bloke is an arrogant so and so. Like so many other watch makers unfortunately.
Two years is far too short a period to draw any conclusions. Most of my watches are over fifty year old. I suspect the life of those plastic components is around five years, based on experience.
This is amazing, thank you for this video. The YT watch community has a lot of influencer that do seem to know a lot about watches but, I really think we need ACTUAL watchmakers taking the lead and breaking things down like this. I mean how would we as watch enthusiasts ever know about something like this? I’d never risk opening up a movement so my trust would be totally in the hands of the maker 😮
Just got me a €2,- Chinese digital watch, I'll put it on a €12,- NATO. Asians all have Hobbit sized wrists. It runs perfectly, has no bling, hasd date, 24h clock. day, month. The extras I don't use, ( alarm and stopwatch). It gives me: "One Ping only please!" every hour. It is more fun to wear than that " 't is zot" I think :)
Also basically when you take the watch in for its periodic service, you’ll have to replace the pallet fork which probably only cost a few bucks. Not a big deal. There’s a reason why Tissots cost what they cost.
The Powermatic movements are built with quality parts but entirely by automated processes. No human labour for the actual construction and assembly. This keeps the costs down and increases consistency by minimizing the possibility of human error.
these are very old news - these movements have around 10years already and the plastic parts discussed in forums a tonn of times.
Pity the less than knowledgeable consumer, and newbie to mechanical watches, who does not read and understand the forums, but relies instead on the advertising hype spewed out by the likes of Tissot
They will never know any better. The watch will run for years and then they'll probably buy something else. Happy consumers. @@seayak
So then is there any news regarding long term durability of these movements with plastic parts? 10 years in a long time, I'm really curious
That is INFURIATING. You were charitable!
But it’s not plastic, it’s bio-ceramic you know 😅
What is the plastic, or are you just going "argh, plastic" without knowing anything about it?
Some plastics handle wear better than metals. What plastic is it?
So I would like to know more about the real-world longevity of these. Is this plastic in fact wearing out? I see a lot of folks being offended that it's there, but I don't really see the proof that it is the failure point of these watches. And as for the watches being disposable, is anyone really repairing cheap Seiko movements that everyone swears by? When I've brought Seikos into watchmakers, they've said they'll replace rather than repairing the movement. I'm just not sure there's a world where anyone's Tissot movement would have been cost effective to repair.
THe Powermatic 80 C07.111 movement was introduced in 2013 according to an article I just read. I haven't heard of any problems. You don't send it to Tissot for service if you don't want the movement replaced. It won't cost much to have the plastic parts replaced with the service.
I’m with you. People are complaining about what MIGHT happen.
If you want a better watch, just buy one. Tissot doesn’t lie about what’s inside, and if you thought you were getting a quality Swiss movement in an $800 watch you really have no one to blame but yourself.
@@lebojay Other than the synthetic escapement and pallet forks and redesigned main spring these movements are almost identical to the 2824 that everyone loves. It costs less for Tissot to replace the movement at service time than to pay a watch maker to service it. Labour costs are the killer here. They are as serviceable as any other movement but economics are the driving factor.
several variations of this movement. lots of confusion. if it has 23 jewels its plastic escapement. if it has 25 jewels its metal. extra jewels for the escapement. hope this helps clear up some of the confusion.
A firm statement Kalle, but I agree with you.
I almost bought this watch, because I like the looks of it. But now seeing this "quality", I pass on this one....
Its ‘plastic’ but what kind fo plastic? Because plastic can be extremely durable and strong. Sometimes stronger than metel, the word plastic is very vague
Happy to found your channel.
Love the technical aspect of it.
Could you maybe do a review of a L688 movement from Longines?
Thats old news. The plastic parts are well known. Even i knew about them.
What would be the best watch to buy at the $800 US mark then?
If you could check Rado, Mido, and Certina. I hope they do not have that plastic part.
I bought a PR100 on Jomashop for about 200USD + taxes and shipping to Europe. That Powermatic 80 version with the plastic fork. I have to say, I was very positively suprised by the quality of the watch for that price, it was far better than a Seiko 5 costing the same. Even with the exhibition case, the calibre looks decent, comparing to the Seiko 7S26. I dont mind having plastic parts for such a nice watch for that price. Also, the accuracy of watch is on the COSC level, there was even a series of PR100 for less then 250USD with the certificate - same as Tudor :D
In my opinion, Tissot and the Swatch is trying to do some real life testing or maybe experiments with the large amount of low-tier watches :-) I dont mind, for that price, it makes sense, on the other hand, I would not pay the full price for Powermatic 80 in PRX (like - 800 USD in Europe). Not speaking about that Sistem51 in the Swatchplain.
On the other hand, I was able to service my Seikos for very small amount of money, and I would doubt, if a standard service is even possible with the Plastomatic... But its still running well and I did not heard any actual complaints about the quality of plastick P80s, yet. Unlike for the infamous sistem51, which seems to be piece of garbage about even 1 year of usage...