What's this guy's pedigree? You know what, IDGAF ABOUT HIS PEDIGREE. FKNCNT. What has he even done in life to expect people to listen to him. I bet he and all his coworkers care a whole lot about great gear reviews.
There was an interpretation error in the talk show. Pedigree means "history, education, and experience" and also lineage. A subject matter is when we speak of the subject. What is considered relevence can change depending on the theme of the talk show. You're allowed to speak of a subject regardless of your pedigree, but your opinions have to be relevant to the subject no matter what your social status is. Meaning your pedigree doesn't matter, your constributions itself will matter. What was shown was consumer slop vs hard skills. 20 hard skill shooters will beat 20 consumer slops. The consumer side is more prevalent than the hard skill side, in the end you pick the hard skill side obviously. Acting against your own benefit such as causing the public media to prefer consumer slop is strange.
It's a different topic, if they stayed on just shooting topics he probably wouldn't have gone off the rails like he did and he was probably drunk so that didn't help.
@@sofithe was drinking before he got on the podcast. He also fell asleep on an instagram live a few weeks ago, after stating he was drunk. Not to talk down on him, but he should stop drinking before getting on a live.
@beardedred0032 Were you drinking with him? Did you give him an alcohol test? Stop talking about this topic, until proven otherwise it is defamation. I don't care about the drama, this channel is about technical stuff, not gossip girl.
Id be lying if I said I didn't look at my rifle with just a white light (with no pressure pad) and a Holo sight (with no magnifier) and wonder if I was missing something with all the typical content "fighting rifle" setups. I appreciate the perspective here, good content, rooted in experience.
I know Pranka has raged against the tall and super tall red dot mounts, but I'll take a top mounted dot on an MVPO any day of the week. You can have such an immensely better scope if you stop chasing a "good 1x" and go with a 2-3x starting mag
Matt hits the nail on the head. If you have a 1x-6x, why would you need another 1x. Only when the 1x isn’t as good as a red dot 1x. Offset red dots on 2-3+ power scopes makes a ton of sense but not on the LPVO. This brief conversation tells you everything you need to know about carbine optics.
An LPVO is harder to acquire and when you’re hypothetically aiming outside at a threat then to inside a threshold, that seems like a good use case, at least for LEOs
So two reasons. A) good ole redundancy if you were worried about such a thing and B) carbine matches apparently. Nit sure if it’s still the most popular thing but at one point people were running the LPVO turned up to whatever suited the far/small targets and running an offset for close targets within the same stage. I’m not opposed to offset red dots or irons. Typically they’re one of the lighter things that go on a gun so no harm no foul.
Back when this came out I decided to give magnifiers another try. Ended up back on an LPVO, demoted my aimpoint to my sim gun, and hadn't thought about magnifiers since. Could never get the eotech magnifiers to hold zero worth a damn, whereas my nightforce has never skipped a beat
The only reason I do LPVO is because of astigmatism. Red dots are so distracting to me, I don't have that problem with the LPVO. That kind of makes up for the associated problems of them for me personally. However if I didn't have that problem I'd stick with a dot all day, especially the high quality proven stuff like aim point pro
I ditched my LPVO about 3 years ago . I run EXPS3 or EXPS2-2 paired with Vortex Micro Triplier almost exclusively. I use that setup in 2Gun for 450Y and in . I smoke dudes with LPVOs up close and at distance. Only time I use LPVO is at PRS Gas Gun / DMR Type matches.
I only found Y'all (Ben and Matt) after that unmoderated disaster of a podcast talking about gear reviews. And I'm so glad I did. No "gun guru" business. No "I did 87 tours...". No "Blah blah Mindset" Just straight up, this is how you shoot and here's why this works. . I just wana' say thank you so much for this video. I hope it kills the LPVO/Dot debate once and for all. It's such a waste of time.
Well if you're going out to distance, a mid range scope with adjustable parallax is a billion times better. The LPVO does poor at close compared to a red dot and poor at distance compared to a mid range. It's like taking the worst of both worlds and paying extra for it
@ThinLineDefenseCo fine with me. Just tired of hearing how every AR needs to be setup for cqb under nods. Sometimes you want to use the rifle as a rifle....
Talk like this won't sell lpvos. Which would explained why all the paid for guntubers don't talk about this. Thanks for the video. I recently switched from a 1-8 to a red dot because I felt the lpvo made no sense (after trying to utilize it usually under 50 yards) for my ar15 type rifle. For further shots, I need a rest or bipod and the dot does fine for my skill level.
10:40 this isn't what i have found to be the case at 1x with GOOD lpvo's. At 1x target transition can still be trained even with a target focused mindset.
Post a short video of you doing the designated target drill with an LPVO and with a red dot. I guarantee that you’ll be faster and have better hits with the red dot.
Everything they're saying is fine for white painted steel out in the open. I put a 1x dot on top of my 1-6, because I have the 1-6x for the 2-6x, and the 1x dot for the 1x. And because I like it.
@PretendtoImagine-k9f yep and they're almost as heavy as my kahles 1-6, with degraded FOV and clarity. Weight and bulk arguments are fine, i just don't buy them for my setup. It's not that heavy and not that bulky.
I bought a midwest industries QD mount for my favorite LVPO. That way I can enjoy both worlds easily. But I prefer red dot + magnifier for a speed/accuracy balance. LVPOs are fun to punch paper at distance. I'm very confident with a dot and 3x magnifier out to 300+ yards.
Good stuff, I've really been enjoying this content now that I discovered it. I wasted money on LPVO's thinking they might be more helpful as my longer distance eyesight has degraded, what happened is that I went back to red dots. They truly make more sense 300 meters and in.
The “more power” argument seems dead on. 6x for me seems to be the limit of how far I’m comfortable moving my head to get a clear view between min & max zoom.
I switched from red dot to lpvo after shooting a couple competitions where shot up small 1/3 steel was difficult to pick up against the background at 1x beyond 150yds. Ticking lpvo to 1.5x or 2x dramatically sped up acquisition and breaking shots and calling hits/misses on those targets. The training is different because unlike with a dot you have to target focus through the optic. There is more time to be lost at distance than to be gained inside 50yds based on match video analysis. I run an offset for inside 35yds and most of the time keep lpvo at 1x and never change magnification mid stage. I give up a little on short range, but make up on longer range. My match and stage finishes have noticeably improved. Opinion? Feedback?
@@peytongoehring1934i competed in a 2 gun match yesterday for the first time, and everyone in my squad was running red dot + magnifier combo. I was the only one with an acog and offset red dot. I felt like the red dot + magnifier would be a great practical set up. I didnt see any lpvo out of all 33 people
@goobasippay938 I'm talking about top level world/national competitions. I dont really care what 33 random chuds wanted to run at a local level 1 pcsl match.
@@peytongoehring1934 Why isn't anyone talking about the elephant in the room here? When's the last time a cop needed to take a shot anywhere NEAR 100 yards? Let alone a civilian. And when these incredibly rare distances do happen, it's almost always a dedicated SWAT Sniper unit using something way stronger, both ballistically and optically than an LPVO in 5.56. Fact of the matter is most people are better served with an AR equipped with a red dot. It's faster, more streamlined, lighter, durable and more practical. You have to really go out of your way to justify a LPVO on your rifle outside of perhaps hunting and/or being in the military. It's America, so get whatever you want, "free country" supposedly, but if you truly believe your LPVO will help you in actual combat one day as a civilian, where a red dot will not, you've been living in fantasy land.
Yeah, I have to agree with this. I have a 1-8x PLX-C and its a good scope but it adds a lot of weight and its not as good as a red dot at more realistic distances. I didn't get mine because of social media. I wanted it because I wanted something with a mil reticle for distance shooting but I THOUGHT I wanted something that went to 1x on the bottom end. Well, I ended up getting a top mounted red dot so you can see how well that 1x must work haha. Next time I want to buy a scope I'm gonna buy an actual friggin rifle scope, not an LPVO. My LPVO is currently on a 12.5" build because I just wanted to try a scope on a shorter setup and its kinda lame tbh. A red dot with a magnifier would be better. If I want a magnified carbine optic I'd probably just stick with an ACOG because at least its pretty light and you can still add a 12 o'clock red dot.
I think a scope should be used on a hunting rifle or sniper rifle/dmr. Any kind of general purpose fighting rifle probably doesn't need any magnification. Especially if youre talking about something like a 12.5", its a close engagement carbine. just use a dot and improve your performance in 99% of scenarios
@@MannEliteI’m curious what you’re basing your opinion on? I ask because the empirical evidence from the last 20 years of GWOT says that magnification is absolutely necessary for a general purpose rifle. There’s a reason the entire Marine Corps and USSOCOM switched to LPVOs(I fully understand that USSOCOM can and does use all kinds of optics but they have the ATACR 1-8 issued to a lot of guys)
@@lecherojr we're talking about a 12.5" carbine.... Think about what a carbine is for... its not for engaging targets at hundreds of meters, thats what machine guns and DMRs are for.... The marines also ditched their scout sniper program so shows how much they care about sniping in general.... Theyre used to fighting against guys who pretty much can't return fire at 500. If you and your buddies with carbines try to engage a Russian Airborne unit, or a Cartel Technical for example at 500m, youre going to receive belt fed machine gun fire and get smoked. Taking a few pop shots with a 556 with a damn 6x or 8x at hundreds of meters to risk incoming machine gun or sniper fire isnt worth it.. If youre fighting against guys who can't read and are using AKs with no magnification then sure, put an LPVO on your carbine.... doesn't matter at that point anyway
good point about the long tube around the 2:00 min mark and cleaning up sight picture that Nick mentioned. I also found that. I wonder what he thinks about having ARD on the aimpoint. I find having that on also requires some "cleanup" in the sight picture. 80% of time military is active/passive under night vision (says matt at the 6:41 ish mark), is that true in ukraine? If its true thats all the more reason for citizens to have it. I really have mixed opinions on this guy but he knows his craft.
@@sofit that was regarding the offset red dot for "operational" shoters, not night vision. He said "tier1" is 80% under NODS. If citizens ever get in shtf they will need NODS. Or are we talking past each other again? I get that you consider that the same as an alien invasion, but i disagree given all the my-grants here.
Seems like a lot of the people pushing red dots because "close range" are also the ones saying you need as much ammo as you can physically carry How much close range shooting are they expecting? If all you need is to be able to fight at 25 yards, do you think you're going to go through 8 mags and not be killed? You're not part of a team doing CQB day after day. While you are expertly standing up shooting multiple targets one after another, your enemy is using cover and shooting into you. A person wearing OD just inside a tree line is invisible at 100 yards. People dont want to get shot and will be concealed, not standing out like a 2 foot white target on an open range.
This sounds like a training issue more than an inherent issue with the lpvo. Granted, having the right lpvo with the right reticle really matters, but coming from a red dot heavy backgound, i didnt want to make the switch. Eventually, i startes toying around with lpvo's and found the pros outweigh the red dot. Most of the guys that I know who run lpvo's run the full magnification range, and it's dependant on the engagement ranges. I think you can be as fast with an lpvo as a red dot, its just harder to master. A red dot is just so intuitive you can train anyone on it with little instruction to be proficient. I'd say that i am as fast, but it took me a looong time and practice to get there.
The counter argument would be that you could be even faster with a red dot if you spent the same amount of time training, especially on drills with more than 1 target.
@MannElite I'd say you may have a point, except I've been running red dots since 2005 and lpvo's since early 2019. I've got far more time, training, and practice under my belt with a red dot than an lpvo. But, to re iterate my stance, I found that you have to get a good lpvo with a good reticle, like a crosshair reticle. Also, one that has a wide field of view and minimal scope body intrusion on 1x. It makes a HUGE difference in my experience.
I really doubt it’s a training issue with any of these 3. I think the issue their use case. It sounds like they’re all focused on multiple target engagements with multiple rounds per target inside 100 yards. I could very well be wrong, but if that is what they’re focused on an eotech is the best optic for it.
I think whats lost on most people who say they need magnification, is that its highly unlikely that you're going to need an AR-15 to shoot hundreds of meters. Using an AR-15 for 500+ meter engagements is like using a .22 for CQB..... like, yeah it might work, but I hope they don't have anything bigger than you got.... also pointing a gun at a person who isn't a threat to "identify them" isn't best practices for most people under most rules of engagement.
@@lecherojr The last 20 years we fought enemies who were generations behind in technology and had fewer numbers. We were going into engagements with 5 to 1 numbers, air superiority, and space age technology in comparison. My point is, you can't use those same tactics when you are one or two dudes or however big your squad is, against similar technology. It was well known over the last 20 years of warfare that you could sit 500 yards from the enemy, and you could hit them and they couldn't hit you, thats not a luxury a prepared citizen necessarily has.
@@MannElite bro, you said it’s unlikely you’ll use an ar15 to shoot hundreds of meters. Thats been done countless times over the last 20 years. That was my only point.
@@lecherojr How many times has an American civilian had to use their AR to take a shot over a hundred meters other than hunting over the last 20 years? I'm talking about civilians here, regular people I talk to, who say they want to put a scope on their AR in case they need to shoot a hostile far away.... My point is its a complete LARP and if you REALLY want to do that get a 6.5 or a 30 cal and get into PRS... But no, people would rather just LARP and put a large scope on a 556 carbine just in case....
@@MannElite everything that isn’t combat is LARP. We used to call it training. Where do civilians look when they go “hmm.. I think a rifle would be handy. I want one that covers the eventuality, no matter how improbable of self defense, hunting, plinking and maybe some competition.” I think they look to the military. Large swaths of which have adopted LPVOs in recent years due to the engagement distances experienced during the GWOT. For a general rifle I think the LPVO makes a lot of sense for me and where I live. Lots of opportunity to shoot really far away out here. I think for a purpose build home defense gun a red dot is best.
Damn it I was fearing this would happen. People is ruthless, especially the firearms community. Shit I was even ralled up for a minute but then I watched the full podcast. The whole thing was a mess and alcohol/butt hurt feelings just destroyed it all
@@rpnbf8196 i'm a little confused about the situation, some days ago i saw a Stoeger's story about helping a friend with a blocked account but i also saw another story from Baker talking about we lost a great free training resource. I hope he will come back after the situation will return to normal, maybe too many idiots arguing against him.
I'm not surprised the soy boy gun tubers who constantly cry and complain pushed out someone like Matt. They don't have the ability to respect. Gun tubers love to see drama and create drama.
@LuisRocha-i2m Eotech 551 is absolute cowitness, with a peq in front of it you're going to obscure the window bottom, about other topics just give me the link, it's not about Pranka, it's about finding contents, no one talks in depth like him, additionally i added other unit guys lives, and for the moment all match his statements.
This is the same guy who is saying that gear doesn't matter and here he is discussing which gear is the most optimal to use. The irony. Good luck shooting in the rain at 300 yards with a magnifier/red dot set up, its possible but you are at a massive disadvantage compared to someone with a lpvo. Dirt, mud, dust, and snow also can occlude a magnifier dot system much faster than a scoped system, something to think about. The military is switching to LPVOs for a reason. Being able to utilize more magnification to identify objects/people that are hidden is a massive advantage that is completely overlooked by most people. Magnifiers are more fragile than a scope in drop tests and they occlude a large amount of field of view while shooting. This is ironic because Matt says that the red dot magnifier set up is supposed to "enhance your situational awareness." This guy said that "lpvos have only 2 settings, 1 or 6 power, no in between" which is just fundamentally wrong, the scope tells you what magnification you are dialed to. He seems completely unfamiliar with variable scope design. If you think that 1x performance is the only thing that matters over all else you are intentionally putting blinders on or you don't know what you are talking about.
good point about the long tube around the 2:00 min mark and cleaning up sight picture that Nick mentioned. I also found that. I wonder what he thinks about having ARD on the aimpoint. I find having that on also requires some "cleanup" in the sight picture. 80% of time military is active/passive under night vision (says matt at the 6:41 ish mark), is that true in ukraine? If its true thats all the more reason for citizens to have it. I really have mixed opinions on this guy but he knows his craft.
My new favorite channel. This discussion is pure gold.
What's this guy's pedigree? You know what, IDGAF ABOUT HIS PEDIGREE. FKNCNT. What has he even done in life to expect people to listen to him. I bet he and all his coworkers care a whole lot about great gear reviews.
There was an interpretation error in the talk show. Pedigree means "history, education, and experience" and also lineage. A subject matter is when we speak of the subject. What is considered relevence can change depending on the theme of the talk show. You're allowed to speak of a subject regardless of your pedigree, but your opinions have to be relevant to the subject no matter what your social status is. Meaning your pedigree doesn't matter, your constributions itself will matter. What was shown was consumer slop vs hard skills. 20 hard skill shooters will beat 20 consumer slops. The consumer side is more prevalent than the hard skill side, in the end you pick the hard skill side obviously. Acting against your own benefit such as causing the public media to prefer consumer slop is strange.
@inferna7327 nerd.
shut up retard
😂
@@cynickicksass 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
My question is where the fuck was this guy last week? Communication is everything and right here he is very valuable.
It's a different topic, if they stayed on just shooting topics he probably wouldn't have gone off the rails like he did and he was probably drunk so that didn't help.
@@nyballer31 drunk with water and Coffee?
@@sofit ok if that's what you want to call it
@@sofithe was drinking before he got on the podcast. He also fell asleep on an instagram live a few weeks ago, after stating he was drunk. Not to talk down on him, but he should stop drinking before getting on a live.
@beardedred0032 Were you drinking with him? Did you give him an alcohol test?
Stop talking about this topic, until proven otherwise it is defamation.
I don't care about the drama, this channel is about technical stuff, not gossip girl.
Id be lying if I said I didn't look at my rifle with just a white light (with no pressure pad) and a Holo sight (with no magnifier) and wonder if I was missing something with all the typical content "fighting rifle" setups. I appreciate the perspective here, good content, rooted in experience.
i remember seeing this and this is what made me go with an eotech/magnifier over an lvpo.
Just changed my lpvo to a red dot this week b cause of all the reasons these guys mentioned this just solidifies my decision.Thank you
I know Pranka has raged against the tall and super tall red dot mounts, but I'll take a top mounted dot on an MVPO any day of the week. You can have such an immensely better scope if you stop chasing a "good 1x" and go with a 2-3x starting mag
I removed my LVPO for a Holosun AEMS
Matt hits the nail on the head. If you have a 1x-6x, why would you need another 1x. Only when the 1x isn’t as good as a red dot 1x. Offset red dots on 2-3+ power scopes makes a ton of sense but not on the LPVO. This brief conversation tells you everything you need to know about carbine optics.
An LPVO is harder to acquire and when you’re hypothetically aiming outside at a threat then to inside a threshold, that seems like a good use case, at least for LEOs
So two reasons. A) good ole redundancy if you were worried about such a thing and B) carbine matches apparently. Nit sure if it’s still the most popular thing but at one point people were running the LPVO turned up to whatever suited the far/small targets and running an offset for close targets within the same stage. I’m not opposed to offset red dots or irons. Typically they’re one of the lighter things that go on a gun so no harm no foul.
Dots on LPVOs are the only way to passive aim with night vision.
@@Bigbossman12624 seems like a lot going on for night vision use
The G45 (5x) magnifier is much better for my use case than a LVPO.
I was looking for this exact segment last night for a discussion on X. Great timing!
Back when this came out I decided to give magnifiers another try. Ended up back on an LPVO, demoted my aimpoint to my sim gun, and hadn't thought about magnifiers since. Could never get the eotech magnifiers to hold zero worth a damn, whereas my nightforce has never skipped a beat
“Social media is why people put that shit on there.” That’s really helpful for me.
The only reason I do LPVO is because of astigmatism. Red dots are so distracting to me, I don't have that problem with the LPVO. That kind of makes up for the associated problems of them for me personally. However if I didn't have that problem I'd stick with a dot all day, especially the high quality proven stuff like aim point pro
I ditched my LPVO about 3 years ago . I run EXPS3 or EXPS2-2 paired with Vortex Micro Triplier almost exclusively. I use that setup in 2Gun for 450Y and in . I smoke dudes with LPVOs up close and at distance.
Only time I use LPVO is at PRS Gas Gun / DMR Type matches.
I have learned the hard way that I don't need an LPVO. I prefer a prism scope/red dot.
I've wasted good money.
I only found Y'all (Ben and Matt) after that unmoderated disaster of a podcast talking about gear reviews. And I'm so glad I did.
No "gun guru" business.
No "I did 87 tours...".
No "Blah blah Mindset"
Just straight up, this is how you shoot and here's why this works.
.
I just wana' say thank you so much for this video. I hope it kills the LPVO/Dot debate once and for all. It's such a waste of time.
not popular with infantry, what? Marines currently use red dot and lpvo.
Does the gun community realize not all gunfights occur between 0 and 25 meters and under nods?
No lol. They do not because we see the majority of them larping out there with nods and kit instead of working on the fundamentals.
Well if you're going out to distance, a mid range scope with adjustable parallax is a billion times better. The LPVO does poor at close compared to a red dot and poor at distance compared to a mid range.
It's like taking the worst of both worlds and paying extra for it
@ThinLineDefenseCo fine with me. Just tired of hearing how every AR needs to be setup for cqb under nods. Sometimes you want to use the rifle as a rifle....
@@aztronomy7457thats not what was said at all in this video, maybe listen thru it again
@@emp6325 it really was. Idk who you are.
Talk like this won't sell lpvos. Which would explained why all the paid for guntubers don't talk about this. Thanks for the video.
I recently switched from a 1-8 to a red dot because I felt the lpvo made no sense (after trying to utilize it usually under 50 yards) for my ar15 type rifle.
For further shots, I need a rest or bipod and the dot does fine for my skill level.
10:40 this isn't what i have found to be the case at 1x with GOOD lpvo's. At 1x target transition can still be trained even with a target focused mindset.
Post a short video of you doing the designated target drill with an LPVO and with a red dot. I guarantee that you’ll be faster and have better hits with the red dot.
Great listen. Thank you.
Everything they're saying is fine for white painted steel out in the open.
I put a 1x dot on top of my 1-6, because I have the 1-6x for the 2-6x, and the 1x dot for the 1x. And because I like it.
5x and 6x magnifiers exist…
@PretendtoImagine-k9f yep and they're almost as heavy as my kahles 1-6, with degraded FOV and clarity. Weight and bulk arguments are fine, i just don't buy them for my setup. It's not that heavy and not that bulky.
@@PretendtoImagine-k9fand the glass quality, eye relief, parallax etc are all worse on a magnifier than they are on a scope
1x on a scope is worse than a quality red dot.
@@PretendtoImagine-k9f correct, they both have downsides. Like everything.
I bought a midwest industries QD mount for my favorite LVPO. That way I can enjoy both worlds easily. But I prefer red dot + magnifier for a speed/accuracy balance. LVPOs are fun to punch paper at distance. I'm very confident with a dot and 3x magnifier out to 300+ yards.
Whoa! This one is from way back👍🏼
Good stuff, I've really been enjoying this content now that I discovered it. I wasted money on LPVO's thinking they might be more helpful as my longer distance eyesight has degraded, what happened is that I went back to red dots. They truly make more sense 300 meters and in.
If speed is the true test why is all of IPSC rifle worlds still utilizing 1-6 LPVO's?
@@VitalSign762 you don't carry an open division pistol for duty, gear is not equivalent
@sofit It's it really fare to compare open division pistol to rifle? Besides pistol optics were only a race gun thing not so long ago.
The “more power” argument seems dead on. 6x for me seems to be the limit of how far I’m comfortable moving my head to get a clear view between min & max zoom.
This is good information more crap on your rifle isn't fixing anything.
I switched from red dot to lpvo after shooting a couple competitions where shot up small 1/3 steel was difficult to pick up against the background at 1x beyond 150yds. Ticking lpvo to 1.5x or 2x dramatically sped up acquisition and breaking shots and calling hits/misses on those targets. The training is different because unlike with a dot you have to target focus through the optic. There is more time to be lost at distance than to be gained inside 50yds based on match video analysis. I run an offset for inside 35yds and most of the time keep lpvo at 1x and never change magnification mid stage. I give up a little on short range, but make up on longer range. My match and stage finishes have noticeably improved.
Opinion? Feedback?
I agree. You look at the competition side, and pretty much everyone is running an lpvo.
@@peytongoehring1934i competed in a 2 gun match yesterday for the first time, and everyone in my squad was running red dot + magnifier combo. I was the only one with an acog and offset red dot. I felt like the red dot + magnifier would be a great practical set up. I didnt see any lpvo out of all 33 people
@goobasippay938 I'm talking about top level world/national competitions. I dont really care what 33 random chuds wanted to run at a local level 1 pcsl match.
@@peytongoehring1934 lol matt and ben would disagree with the lpvo being the best. Your lack of respect is telling of your character, and your skill…
@@peytongoehring1934 Why isn't anyone talking about the elephant in the room here? When's the last time a cop needed to take a shot anywhere NEAR 100 yards? Let alone a civilian. And when these incredibly rare distances do happen, it's almost always a dedicated SWAT Sniper unit using something way stronger, both ballistically and optically than an LPVO in 5.56. Fact of the matter is most people are better served with an AR equipped with a red dot. It's faster, more streamlined, lighter, durable and more practical. You have to really go out of your way to justify a LPVO on your rifle outside of perhaps hunting and/or being in the military. It's America, so get whatever you want, "free country" supposedly, but if you truly believe your LPVO will help you in actual combat one day as a civilian, where a red dot will not, you've been living in fantasy land.
Yeah, I have to agree with this. I have a 1-8x PLX-C and its a good scope but it adds a lot of weight and its not as good as a red dot at more realistic distances. I didn't get mine because of social media. I wanted it because I wanted something with a mil reticle for distance shooting but I THOUGHT I wanted something that went to 1x on the bottom end. Well, I ended up getting a top mounted red dot so you can see how well that 1x must work haha.
Next time I want to buy a scope I'm gonna buy an actual friggin rifle scope, not an LPVO. My LPVO is currently on a 12.5" build because I just wanted to try a scope on a shorter setup and its kinda lame tbh. A red dot with a magnifier would be better. If I want a magnified carbine optic I'd probably just stick with an ACOG because at least its pretty light and you can still add a 12 o'clock red dot.
I think a scope should be used on a hunting rifle or sniper rifle/dmr. Any kind of general purpose fighting rifle probably doesn't need any magnification. Especially if youre talking about something like a 12.5", its a close engagement carbine. just use a dot and improve your performance in 99% of scenarios
@@MannEliteI’m curious what you’re basing your opinion on? I ask because the empirical evidence from the last 20 years of GWOT says that magnification is absolutely necessary for a general purpose rifle. There’s a reason the entire Marine Corps and USSOCOM switched to LPVOs(I fully understand that USSOCOM can and does use all kinds of optics but they have the ATACR 1-8 issued to a lot of guys)
@@lecherojr we're talking about a 12.5" carbine.... Think about what a carbine is for... its not for engaging targets at hundreds of meters, thats what machine guns and DMRs are for.... The marines also ditched their scout sniper program so shows how much they care about sniping in general.... Theyre used to fighting against guys who pretty much can't return fire at 500. If you and your buddies with carbines try to engage a Russian Airborne unit, or a Cartel Technical for example at 500m, youre going to receive belt fed machine gun fire and get smoked. Taking a few pop shots with a 556 with a damn 6x or 8x at hundreds of meters to risk incoming machine gun or sniper fire isnt worth it.. If youre fighting against guys who can't read and are using AKs with no magnification then sure, put an LPVO on your carbine.... doesn't matter at that point anyway
I want to have Matt Pranka, Joe Daweson, and some dudes from Ridgeline discus this on Primary and Secondary.
If a pair of cops work together with rifles, should one have red dot / holo and one have LPVO so they can cover each other?
@@inferna7327 there is an interesting Live about Designated Marksman in Chris Palmer account:
ruclips.net/video/NHOashFsDpA/видео.htmlfeature=shared
Naaa that’s to complicated. We used whatever we felt comfortable
everyone is doing it wrong. the solution is the offset lpvo. Mounted 45 degrees at a 2.91" height. iron sights as primary over the bore.
@@MTMind69 pushing the concept of the backup dot for the dot
good point about the long tube around the 2:00 min mark and cleaning up sight picture that Nick mentioned. I also found that. I wonder what he thinks about having ARD on the aimpoint. I find having that on also requires some "cleanup" in the sight picture. 80% of time military is active/passive under night vision (says matt at the 6:41 ish mark), is that true in ukraine? If its true thats all the more reason for citizens to have it. I really have mixed opinions on this guy but he knows his craft.
@@Jay-d3t he talks from a tier1 unit standpoint, in the video he said that has sense for conventional forces but it's not really popular
@@sofit that was regarding the offset red dot for "operational" shoters, not night vision. He said "tier1" is 80% under NODS. If citizens ever get in shtf they will need NODS. Or are we talking past each other again? I get that you consider that the same as an alien invasion, but i disagree given all the my-grants here.
@@jayjason-f9sAt 6:46 he talks back about magnification and pid, you hear only what you want to hear
My patrol rifle had a dot but man wish I had a lpvo for better acquisition
I think the dot should serve you better for most engagements
Seems like a lot of the people pushing red dots because "close range" are also the ones saying you need as much ammo as you can physically carry
How much close range shooting are they expecting? If all you need is to be able to fight at 25 yards, do you think you're going to go through 8 mags and not be killed? You're not part of a team doing CQB day after day. While you are expertly standing up shooting multiple targets one after another, your enemy is using cover and shooting into you.
A person wearing OD just inside a tree line is invisible at 100 yards. People dont want to get shot and will be concealed, not standing out like a 2 foot white target on an open range.
@@Devin_Milford add a magnifier
This sounds like a training issue more than an inherent issue with the lpvo. Granted, having the right lpvo with the right reticle really matters, but coming from a red dot heavy backgound, i didnt want to make the switch. Eventually, i startes toying around with lpvo's and found the pros outweigh the red dot. Most of the guys that I know who run lpvo's run the full magnification range, and it's dependant on the engagement ranges. I think you can be as fast with an lpvo as a red dot, its just harder to master. A red dot is just so intuitive you can train anyone on it with little instruction to be proficient. I'd say that i am as fast, but it took me a looong time and practice to get there.
The counter argument would be that you could be even faster with a red dot if you spent the same amount of time training, especially on drills with more than 1 target.
@MannElite I'd say you may have a point, except I've been running red dots since 2005 and lpvo's since early 2019. I've got far more time, training, and practice under my belt with a red dot than an lpvo. But, to re iterate my stance, I found that you have to get a good lpvo with a good reticle, like a crosshair reticle. Also, one that has a wide field of view and minimal scope body intrusion on 1x. It makes a HUGE difference in my experience.
@@airborneivan Nice! Thanks for sharing. You have alot more experience than me.
@MannElite no prob.
I really doubt it’s a training issue with any of these 3. I think the issue their use case. It sounds like they’re all focused on multiple target engagements with multiple rounds per target inside 100 yards. I could very well be wrong, but if that is what they’re focused on an eotech is the best optic for it.
I think whats lost on most people who say they need magnification, is that its highly unlikely that you're going to need an AR-15 to shoot hundreds of meters. Using an AR-15 for 500+ meter engagements is like using a .22 for CQB..... like, yeah it might work, but I hope they don't have anything bigger than you got.... also pointing a gun at a person who isn't a threat to "identify them" isn't best practices for most people under most rules of engagement.
The last 20 years of combat would like a word with you.
@@lecherojr The last 20 years we fought enemies who were generations behind in technology and had fewer numbers. We were going into engagements with 5 to 1 numbers, air superiority, and space age technology in comparison. My point is, you can't use those same tactics when you are one or two dudes or however big your squad is, against similar technology. It was well known over the last 20 years of warfare that you could sit 500 yards from the enemy, and you could hit them and they couldn't hit you, thats not a luxury a prepared citizen necessarily has.
@@MannElite bro, you said it’s unlikely you’ll use an ar15 to shoot hundreds of meters. Thats been done countless times over the last 20 years. That was my only point.
@@lecherojr How many times has an American civilian had to use their AR to take a shot over a hundred meters other than hunting over the last 20 years? I'm talking about civilians here, regular people I talk to, who say they want to put a scope on their AR in case they need to shoot a hostile far away.... My point is its a complete LARP and if you REALLY want to do that get a 6.5 or a 30 cal and get into PRS... But no, people would rather just LARP and put a large scope on a 556 carbine just in case....
@@MannElite everything that isn’t combat is LARP. We used to call it training. Where do civilians look when they go “hmm.. I think a rifle would be handy. I want one that covers the eventuality, no matter how improbable of self defense, hunting, plinking and maybe some competition.” I think they look to the military. Large swaths of which have adopted LPVOs in recent years due to the engagement distances experienced during the GWOT.
For a general rifle I think the LPVO makes a lot of sense for me and where I live. Lots of opportunity to shoot really far away out here.
I think for a purpose build home defense gun a red dot is best.
Pranka scares me. LOL
It's cool to see Matt not being a sperg.
9:24 Trench grenades and hops eyes just crisscrossed processing this through logic. 😂
You’re all wrong. 2-10 with a 12 o clock rmr……..
👍🏻
I love that I'm seeing this video but hate it at the same time. I was convinced that I was getting an lpvo...now I'm not sure 😞
Start from what you want to do with it.
@onpsxmember valid point, thank you for that.
How much were you goiing to spend on it?
@armorers_wrench around 290 for the primary arms aurora 1-6
@@armorers_wrench around 290 for a primary arms aurora 1-6
Matt take down his instagram? There’s such great material there…damn…
I hope it wasn't getting trolled/brigaded after that live stream a few days ago. Even his website is down
Damn it I was fearing this would happen. People is ruthless, especially the firearms community. Shit I was even ralled up for a minute but then I watched the full podcast. The whole thing was a mess and alcohol/butt hurt feelings just destroyed it all
@@rpnbf8196 i'm a little confused about the situation, some days ago i saw a Stoeger's story about helping a friend with a blocked account but i also saw another story from Baker talking about we lost a great free training resource. I hope he will come back after the situation will return to normal, maybe too many idiots arguing against him.
I'm not surprised the soy boy gun tubers who constantly cry and complain pushed out someone like Matt. They don't have the ability to respect. Gun tubers love to see drama and create drama.
@@sofitIs Matt so butt hurt he had to rage quit the rest of the internet too?
What’s the pedigree in this chat?
@@PapaBDR 1 Delta Force & USPSA GM, one USPSA GM & IPSC world champion and one USPSA Master shooter.
@ yea but is it enough pedigree 🤣
@ oh I’m well aware of private snuffy and his Webchats
@@PapaBDR For who?
@LuisRocha-i2m Eotech 551 is absolute cowitness, with a peq in front of it you're going to obscure the window bottom, about other topics just give me the link, it's not about Pranka, it's about finding contents, no one talks in depth like him, additionally i added other unit guys lives, and for the moment all match his statements.
Just when Matt's takes couldnt get even more dumb
Fkn tactical mall cop here 😂
This is the same guy who is saying that gear doesn't matter and here he is discussing which gear is the most optimal to use. The irony.
Good luck shooting in the rain at 300 yards with a magnifier/red dot set up, its possible but you are at a massive disadvantage compared to someone with a lpvo. Dirt, mud, dust, and snow also can occlude a magnifier dot system much faster than a scoped system, something to think about.
The military is switching to LPVOs for a reason. Being able to utilize more magnification to identify objects/people that are hidden is a massive advantage that is completely overlooked by most people.
Magnifiers are more fragile than a scope in drop tests and they occlude a large amount of field of view while shooting. This is ironic because Matt says that the red dot magnifier set up is supposed to "enhance your situational awareness."
This guy said that "lpvos have only 2 settings, 1 or 6 power, no in between" which is just fundamentally wrong, the scope tells you what magnification you are dialed to. He seems completely unfamiliar with variable scope design.
If you think that 1x performance is the only thing that matters over all else you are intentionally putting blinders on or you don't know what you are talking about.
Should of had bruiser on this episode
If you had any real-world experience you would know why it's necessary to have a 1x dot sight
Different needs for different people, there are plenty of people both LEO and Military that have worked fine with and without such sights.
good point about the long tube around the 2:00 min mark and cleaning up sight picture that Nick mentioned. I also found that. I wonder what he thinks about having ARD on the aimpoint. I find having that on also requires some "cleanup" in the sight picture. 80% of time military is active/passive under night vision (says matt at the 6:41 ish mark), is that true in ukraine? If its true thats all the more reason for citizens to have it. I really have mixed opinions on this guy but he knows his craft.