As explained elsewhere in another GCN video, an aero position is not merely bending farther at the hips so the head and shoulders are lower. Only bending at the hips would constrict the chest more than necessary and may reduce the sustainable power greater than the aero benefit. Rather, a proper aero position is more of a rotation than a bending -- using the crank axle as the axis of rotation, the entire body is rotated forward. If done correctly, the hips will be farther forward and this will push the torso farther forward, too. More adjustments may be required than was shown in the video: (1) The saddle is moved forward. (2) The saddle is tipped down. (3) The handlebar is moved forward. (4) The handlebar is moved down. (5) Some cyclists also switch to a shorter crank arm length (this is common with triathletes). Only (2) and (4) were done in the video. When all of the adjustments are made, there should not be a major constriction of the chest and there should be less effect on the cyclist's output power. Two additional issues may have affected the tests: (1) The object in the middle back pocket of both Dan's and Matt's jerseys may have raised the drag differently for each riding position. In an aero position, the expanded middle pocket has greater exposure to the wind and may have created more drag than in a less aero position where it is sheltered more by the cyclist's back. This may have counteracted some of the benefit of the aero position. (2) The duration of the tests were too short, making the data statistically questionable. It would be good to see these tests repeated with the back pockets empty and a much longer duration used (20-30 minutes, perhaps).
I dropped my stem, hacksaw etc. following Simon's vid, a month ago. About an inch (25mm), no back problems, no additional strain on my arms. And when I cruise past plate glass shop window I look desperately cool. Belly sucked in, of course.
Hahahaaaa!!! And that is the real reason we're all thinking about slamming the stems!! Hahahhaaa!! Isn't it just so goooooooood when you catch a short glimpse of that reflection as you "speed" by?!!!
For well over a decade I rode a simple 10 speed steel frame, with the handlebars level to the seat, riding mostly along coastal (flat)routes. I never bothered to question my form, or whether it was efficient. I was just happy to be out riding. Then I got the climbing bug, bought an expensive carbon wonder bike, and was properly fit, during which I learned quite a bit about form, efficiency, and how to relax in a variety of positions. I was encouraged to drop the stem over time, allowing the muscles and tendons to stretch and adapt. I found it easy to adopt a more aero profile, but stopped lowering the stem at near 2 inches below the saddle, a nod to comfort. I have ridden a bike with a considerable slammed geometry, and found I could ride that way, but only for short distances. It would take time to feel comfortable on longer rides with that geometry. The neck muscles in particular have to adapt to the more extreme angle to be able to see.
DFTA (Don't Feed The Animals) I don't use weights, just push-ups and some core exercises from gmbn. I always stretch before and after a ride. Helps to be flexible when you crash as often as me :D
Great info. You sound dedicated to the sport. I do stretching mostly afterwards and some weights / body resistance. i try to do 'supermans' (laying on stomach, lifting arms and legs) ...supposed to be good for lower back.
GCN is top class for advice, information, technical, hardware and fun. Thanks! Can I ask you to think of an older, less fit, more amateur rider who wants performance, but needs comfort (and safety) too...Maybe, you can look at flat bars, flat pedals (suspension?) in an urban environment and 40km-100km pleasure rides.
I agree. I got a Fuji Sportif (Endurance frame of course) and got my stem slammed to try to get some more aero. After two months riding in such position, yes, I did get faster but with the side effects of lower back pain and my hands got tired way faster. I also feel tired faster as I can't get used to it in the long run. So now I changed a little bit by increasing the spacers just 2 more levels instead of 3.5. Now it feels way better and I get less painful in the long run (still hurt tho).
you all prolly dont give a damn but does someone know a way to log back into an instagram account..? I stupidly forgot the login password. I would love any assistance you can offer me.
but the idea is to also raise your saddle and push it forward so that your hip angle is more efficient... just slamming the stem is going to make it harder to push the same power as before.
I'm a tall guy and most of it is legs, consequently I tend to be a bit of a puzzle for bike fit and frame size. I've found over a few years, that I just need time on the bike to adapt to, and be powerful in, more extreme positions. Learn to ride rollers, then you can hit it every day, all winter, in comfort and gradually get more and more forward while remaining smooth and in control with a good pedal stroke.
I used to have like 2.5 cm of spacers, and I try to slowly get a more aero position. Took me like 5 months to get a 1.5 cm lower. And a lot of stretching.
I don't have metrics, but when I slammed mine it just feels faster and my legs feel more efficient. Because of that, its more fun. My crosser is more upright and it feels like drudgery on the same roads.
Tried a year ago to put a stem 1cm longer and 1cm lower, but I had only neck and shoulders pain for 6 month until I've reverted to a more relaxed and "classical" position. I think that for us mere mortals, the best position to have on a bike is similar to the Hinault/Fignon fit of early eighties. Good setback, not too much handlebar drop, a nice large (14cm) saddle for extra stability.
Did some experimenting with this after seeing the video about the pro's doing it. Found -9deg saddle tilt to be way too much, felt like I was sliding forward. Went back to -3 which I found to be very comfortable and more than enough to allow me to comfortably slam my stem which used to have 2x10mm spacers under.. Have been riding with this setup for a few weeks now and I'm very satisfied -no back pain. Quite amazed that tilting the seat, even only 3 degrees, could make that much difference, I have actually raised my saddle a few mm and tilted the handlebars a bit more down afterwards as well...!
sanjoy87 yep, I tried -9 degrees and was literally sliding off my slick carbon fiber seat (especially at stop signs or just slowing down). I'm sure the fact I Turtle wax even my seat doesn't help, but it was almost comically bad. I've switched to somewhere in the -2 degree range and don't have that problem.
For Matt, those couple of watts (average 4.33W more for slammed) made the difference and the wattage has an almost perfect correlation to the faster times (-0.979).
Thanks for your input. No, I haven't thought of that. But I guess for the small delta, a linear approach is a good approximation. (If it makes sense at all to look at this small sample size)
When considering power, drag is even worse: speed^3. The force is speed^2, but power is force times speed. Going twice as fast increases the power consumed by air resistance by a factor of 8! However, a few watts is not the answer here, because 4.3 W would be only a 1.3% change; need to account for much more to explain these results.
teddansonLA that's correct, Power = cD 1/2 ρ v³ A from FD = cD 1/2 ρ v² A and P = FD v You can find this on engineering toolbox under lift and drag article with an example worked out.
While I agree with the verdict, you can't calculate a correlation on just six data points. Technically you can, but it's as meaningless as a five-percent difference that cannot stand the test of significance and statistical power (and doesn't control for the weather conditions, the number of cars passing by or coming up in the opposite direction, which can have an effect as well).
I guess the pros don't just "slam the stam" and say: "great, now I am aero". They spend lots of time, also with other people (experts) to get their setup right.
Thank you for your sharing this video about slamming. I am 67 and a social cyclist really. Cycling is all about enduring the pain right from the start. As we cycle thru the years old pain will go and new pain will come. Just my 2 cents, lol. Cheers
I've been riding with slammed stem for about 1year and it's more comfortable i.e. It takes a lot of pressure off your bum as your upper body weight is more distributed plus the aerodynamic benefits especially in headwinds.
Should you slam your stem? Yes of course. I saw this video and slammed the stem at home. Took out two spacers of 5mm each. I love the slammed position after a 50km test ride. My back felt better than it did with the “unslammed” position. I will turn 58 this August, ride a 54 size frame with a 90mm stem on an endurance fit. It worked great for me! Thank you for the video and thank ‘me’ for listening to myself!
Ive always rode a low stem, it just feels better...tho i have rode for years like so. Its takes a lot of flexiblilty to ride flat and tapering. Stretch !
same for me but I have also short arms and torso and long legs for my size so my quads are kicking my torso all the time and I have ergo bars with long reach and drop so I bought cinelli vai compact shallow bars with 75 mm reach and 123 mm drop so I guess that will work better for me
They Live We Sleep - good points! I wonder if any of the pros have an issue with 'toe overlap'? Seems like if they have long feet it might be an issue with the size of the frames they ride.
I went from a 120mm -6 degree stem with 10mm of spacers and switched to a 140mm -12 degree stem with no spacers, was hard work but I found that yoga really helped me adapt faster. I use GCN/fitness channel yoga for cyclists which is great! could do with some more of that content!
I had a Guru Fit done over the winter...not only is my stem NOT slammed, it's actually flipped upwards...the result: I'm faster than I ever was before with a slammed stem and it angled downwards. A comfortable rider is a fast rider.
what's thepoint of an "aero position" if you have to go back once in a while to an upright position to relieve pain, what's the point of an "aero position" if it puts you at risk of an accident because you can't control the bike as well as with hands on handlebars what's the point of an aero position if your usual race/tracks/sessions are on a circuit with hills and curves forcing you to constantly leave the said "aero position" An "aero position" is valid only on flat and rolling road profile, but is counter productive on other road profiles, what's the point of gaining watts on the flat out part of a ride if it's to loose them because your "aeroposition" is not adapted/couterproductive for the coming steep hill... "aero position" is good for pros who once in a while will ride on a time trial on a rolling course. For the rest, get a "confortable position", put some aero bars on your handlebar for the rare long flat parts of your sessions/races, and you're done. satisfaction and performance guaranted.
I tried various seat tilts for a while, but felt like I was wasting power trying to stay in the same position on the saddle. I think if companies start making seats to take advantage of more tilt, though for now I will stay with using a level saddle.
Just what we need: cyclists on hyper-slammed stems on the road with oversized trucks and wayward motorists. I've seen too many accidents involving cyclists emulating pro riders and trying to look awesome on shared roads.
Everyone has a different take on this but, I had slammed my stem before and the result was that I felt too elongated and uncomfortable so I gave up on it. However about six months ago I gave it another try and - just as an experiment - I slammed the saddle all the way forward at the same time. I use Fizik Arione saddles (which are long) and I usually have a seat post with about a 15mm lay-back. My saddle height was also kept exactly the same. As an additional measure (to compensate the saddle moving forward) I increased my stem length by 2cms. The result second time around, with the slammed saddle and stem was much better. More comfortable, more aero and being able to ride on the drops far longer and (seemingly) produce more power. I have now changed all my three bikes to this position and feel really happy with the difference it makes. Of course this works fine for me possible because of my limb length etc but maybe not for everyone. But it's always worth taking time to experiment I find and not give up. And I don't get any back pain either.
I'm a heavier rider. The lower my bars are, the more weight is pushed forward onto my arms, expending more effort and raising my heart rate. So it doesn't really help me. But if you weigh 140 lbs instead of 213, I imagine that effect might diminish.
L G That happens to me too. I could probably get used to it if I trained that way, but I don't race, so it doesn't matter enough to pursue. And with my lower spine having been injured, there's even more reason not to ride that way. I'm almost 97kg and have a 127cm chest. It's a lot of weight to support. I should've taken up cycling instead of weight lifting when I was younger! :P
You probably need to compensate with your saddle position. Worth getting a bike fitter to look at it. My current position on my road bike looks very aggressive (slammed, long stem) at the front but once my bike fitter had got the saddle in the right place (all the way back on the rails), it was a natural way to set up the front with very little weight on the arms. So I would say a comfortable long low position is possible but it's probably a mistake to just change the position of the bars, you need to look at what it does to the whole bike fit overall.
Nick Sexton I've explored that too. Sadly, due to the weight in my upper torso, my point of balance is ridiculously outside the range of the seat rails. But I appreciate you taking the time. Maybe I'll finally break down and buy a recumbent someday. ...But probably not. :)
Ian Snyder I guess you tried setback seatposts? I tracked down a canyon one with 35mm setback. And I think Selle SMP saddles have really long rails. Recumbent would definitely be even more aero anyway...
One issue is they were clearly careful to maintain the same forearm position. On the other hand, if when you lower your handlebar you straighten your arms, you're losing the benefit, and this is when not thinking about it, not when focused on a test.. I find when I adjust my position I like taking photos of myself from the side, and the back position tends to be relatively independent of handlebar height within a reasonable range. If I can't ride with bent elbows in the drops then the bar is too low, but if it's too comfortable in that position the bar is too high.
I did a 100km ride slammed like that in in the vid and struggled to walk for the next week. Incremental and with a good bike fitter would get the way to go I reckon.
Getting a little better at "science". At least you have a sample size of three. I do actually appreciate that you guys are testing this stuff. The more scientifically, the better.
This feels like a lot of suffering in the shoulders and at the base of the neck as you try to look forward while riding. It's most likely an interesting position if your body is used to it, but it takes time to get there and I reckon, a lot of pain.
Ive heard that cutting the steerer fork to its lowest position, which results in a zero spacer slammed position, reduces fork flex. My Planet X is cut and uses one tiny spacer, otherwise its slammed. Back is fine, but you do some upperbody exercise and stretches. Work on your core as well.
The video doesn’t even mention the improvements to handling and steering from slamming your stem. I went from having all 4cm of spacers under my TCR stem to just having just the minimum 2.5mm spacer above the headset cone and the difference it made to the handling was huge, it now corners like it’s on rails thanks to the Overdrive 2 headset with oversized lower headset bearing. It’s also much more aero on the hoods so I don’t feel the need to use the drops any more for aero advantage. I find the position perfectly comfortable over 100 miles, although I’m in my mid-30’s and in good shape. My average speed has also increased. The only discomfort I had initially was numbness in hands on a long ride, so I straightened my wrist position by lowering the bar angle forward by a couple of degrees
Couple of things - when riding in the peloton the slammed position will be irrelevant as drafting far overrides aero position. When riding in slammed I find, like they did, that it is faster, but hard to sustain much longer than say a 20 minutes flat out attack. And if you are a climber and want to attack on the hill, slammed not relevant either. So depends on your riding style and strengths/weaknesses.
Switching to a smaller crank length would create the 'Slam' since the seat height would increase to get your legs back to the almost straight position. Your breathing would be easier because the knees don't approach the chest.
Matt, what have you done to your lovely bike? Quick releases pointing in weird directions and what is that on your Seat post? Still, however, great Video as usual!
You might be better served by doing your test on an indoor velodrome maintaining a constant speed and measuring the power it takes to maintain that speed in each position. There would be a few less variables effecting the outcome.
I would not trade aero for power! The science shows extreme slammed position leads to less power due to pelvic tilt. As Dan quite correctly says he felt he produced less power and thats because he did. The test on a downhill run was all about aero not increasing power.
I can't understand how a perfectly horizontal saddle could be comfortable except for the tallest (and skinniest) riders? 5 degrees downward is preferable.
I got involved in the positioning challenge to the extent of inventing and patenting an adjustable-while-riding saddle to help accommodate varying position demands while riding. Here it is: ruclips.net/video/q8dXxUhuaBI/видео.html
I want to know aero difference between taller bars and in the drops vs slammed and on the hoods. same positions provide the body position but arm position is the difference here I want to know.
Forget the few cm they were messing with here. The trend in recent years is to go for a seemingly ridiculous seat to bar drop. I guess aero is the reason. Look how much seat post shows on the pro bikes now. Compare it to the 90s when Lemond was racing. Not nearly as much post and they got in pretty aero positions with longer top tubes. The pros look like they're riding kids' bikes nowadays.
I can barely get into the drops b/c of the pressure I feel in the saddle. Aero is uncomfortable as hell, adjusting the bars down so they're level with the stem just a few degrees - is a major pain in shoulders neck & lower back.
THERE ARE MANY FASHIONS BUT THE PENALTY IS NOT WORTHY to sacrifice comfort in aerodynamic careers, for that the aerodynamic studies are done in the frames to go faster and the wheels
The tilt of the saddle puts a lot more strain on shoulders and arms. If I tilt mine just a little I get a very uncomfortable sensation that I am sliding off and have to constantly push back. I can't imagine what 9 degrees would feel like.
This is reminiscent of the old saddle height formula and look circa 1975-1985, where power studies claimed optimization but riders could not stand to put hours daily in those positions. TT usually no more than an hour; riders know what they can tolerate for long duration, and I bet most will forego these tweaks as they suffer the consequences.
I got about 3cm of spacers, but since my legs are so long I still have a almost 10cm drop from saddle to hoods.. And after a little 130km++ ride earlier this week my shoulders are pretty sore. Legs are fine though :)
WHen you slam the stem, you have to sit about 20% closer to the andlebars on your seat. don't put you hole arse on it, sit forward a bit on it so you can see a chunk of the seat coming out behind. That was stop your back problems
I have a slammed stem and negative stem. As a young rider on a team I'm on the bike a lot, but for the first few long rides or races my lower back did hurt a bit after but it is very comfortable now.
I tilted my seat slightly a couple of months back, it was more comfortable to get more aero and i got rid of numb nuts but started getting saddle sores, tried to get used to it for a month or so but couldn't get rid of saddle sores... ended up going back to numb nuts and the saddle sores have gone...
What angle did you tilt the seat to and do you use Chamois Butter before each ride? Also just out of curiosity do you have aero bars on your bicycle? My seat it tilted slightly down to -2 right now. I will be doing my first 30 mile ride on it this evening.
I slam my stem and find that I still could be even lower in the handle bars while still being comfortable, should I just remove my headset cap or should I spend a bit more on a stem with a -25 degree bend?
really hoping you guys pick me for the quarq giveaway! Rode up a local mountain (14 miles , 3k ft climbing) the past 3 weekends and that power meter would really help with pacing it on future rides.
How come Dan never rides on the drops? I'm new to cycling and was just wondering if there would be a huge difference between riding on the drops and the hoods.
As explained elsewhere in another GCN video, an aero position is not merely bending farther at the hips so the head and shoulders are lower. Only bending at the hips would constrict the chest more than necessary and may reduce the sustainable power greater than the aero benefit. Rather, a proper aero position is more of a rotation than a bending -- using the crank axle as the axis of rotation, the entire body is rotated forward. If done correctly, the hips will be farther forward and this will push the torso farther forward, too. More adjustments may be required than was shown in the video: (1) The saddle is moved forward. (2) The saddle is tipped down. (3) The handlebar is moved forward. (4) The handlebar is moved down. (5) Some cyclists also switch to a shorter crank arm length (this is common with triathletes). Only (2) and (4) were done in the video. When all of the adjustments are made, there should not be a major constriction of the chest and there should be less effect on the cyclist's output power.
Two additional issues may have affected the tests: (1) The object in the middle back pocket of both Dan's and Matt's jerseys may have raised the drag differently for each riding position. In an aero position, the expanded middle pocket has greater exposure to the wind and may have created more drag than in a less aero position where it is sheltered more by the cyclist's back. This may have counteracted some of the benefit of the aero position. (2) The duration of the tests were too short, making the data statistically questionable. It would be good to see these tests repeated with the back pockets empty and a much longer duration used (20-30 minutes, perhaps).
Very good points.
I dropped my stem, hacksaw etc. following Simon's vid, a month ago. About an inch (25mm), no back problems, no additional strain on my arms. And when I cruise past plate glass shop window I look desperately cool. Belly sucked in, of course.
Hahahaaaa!!! And that is the real reason we're all thinking about slamming the stems!! Hahahhaaa!! Isn't it just so goooooooood when you catch a short glimpse of that reflection as you "speed" by?!!!
Beautiful comment!
For well over a decade I rode a simple 10 speed steel frame, with the handlebars level to the seat, riding mostly along coastal (flat)routes. I never bothered to question my form, or whether it was efficient. I was just happy to be out riding. Then I got the climbing bug, bought an expensive carbon wonder bike, and was properly fit, during which I learned quite a bit about form, efficiency, and how to relax in a variety of positions. I was encouraged to drop the stem over time, allowing the muscles and tendons to stretch and adapt. I found it easy to adopt a more aero profile, but stopped lowering the stem at near 2 inches below the saddle, a nod to comfort. I have ridden a bike with a considerable slammed geometry, and found I could ride that way, but only for short distances. It would take time to feel comfortable on longer rides with that geometry. The neck muscles in particular have to adapt to the more extreme angle to be able to see.
siskokidd same findings for me. About 5/6cm for maximum drop
How much time did you gave to adopt to that position
Being able to see forward is overrated.
I used to have really sore shoulders and lower back when in a really aero position. 1h/week of upper body strength training fixed that for me
thanks for the note! did you add stretching also or just muscle development tools like weight training / body weight exercises?
DFTA (Don't Feed The Animals) I don't use weights, just push-ups and some core exercises from gmbn. I always stretch before and after a ride. Helps to be flexible when you crash as often as me :D
bananas also helps with bending over
seriously
Great info. You sound dedicated to the sport. I do stretching mostly afterwards and some weights / body resistance. i try to do 'supermans' (laying on stomach, lifting arms and legs) ...supposed to be good for lower back.
Try some "good morning" back exercises for the lower back.
GCN is top class for advice, information, technical, hardware and fun. Thanks! Can I ask you to think of an older, less fit, more amateur rider who wants performance, but needs comfort (and safety) too...Maybe, you can look at flat bars, flat pedals (suspension?) in an urban environment and 40km-100km pleasure rides.
I agree. I got a Fuji Sportif (Endurance frame of course) and got my stem slammed to try to get some more aero. After two months riding in such position, yes, I did get faster but with the side effects of lower back pain and my hands got tired way faster. I also feel tired faster as I can't get used to it in the long run.
So now I changed a little bit by increasing the spacers just 2 more levels instead of 3.5. Now it feels way better and I get less painful in the long run (still hurt tho).
The Presenters already had slammed setups compared to 95% of riders
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but the idea is to also raise your saddle and push it forward so that your hip angle is more efficient... just slamming the stem is going to make it harder to push the same power as before.
I'm a tall guy and most of it is legs, consequently I tend to be a bit of a puzzle for bike fit and frame size. I've found over a few years, that I just need time on the bike to adapt to, and be powerful in, more extreme positions. Learn to ride rollers, then you can hit it every day, all winter, in comfort and gradually get more and more forward while remaining smooth and in control with a good pedal stroke.
I used to have like 2.5 cm of spacers, and I try to slowly get a more aero position. Took me like 5 months to get a 1.5 cm lower. And a lot of stretching.
I don't have metrics, but when I slammed mine it just feels faster and my legs feel more efficient. Because of that, its more fun. My crosser is more upright and it feels like drudgery on the same roads.
I’ve gone somewhere in between and shortened the stem as well and found it’s comfortable for an all around ride
Tried a year ago to put a stem 1cm longer and 1cm lower, but I had only neck and shoulders pain for 6 month until I've reverted to a more relaxed and "classical" position. I think that for us mere mortals, the best position to have on a bike is similar to the Hinault/Fignon fit of early eighties. Good setback, not too much handlebar drop, a nice large (14cm) saddle for extra stability.
Did some experimenting with this after seeing the video about the pro's doing it. Found -9deg saddle tilt to be way too much, felt like I was sliding forward. Went back to -3 which I found to be very comfortable and more than enough to allow me to comfortably slam my stem which used to have 2x10mm spacers under.. Have been riding with this setup for a few weeks now and I'm very satisfied -no back pain. Quite amazed that tilting the seat, even only 3 degrees, could make that much difference, I have actually raised my saddle a few mm and tilted the handlebars a bit more down afterwards as well...!
sanjoy87 yep, I tried -9 degrees and was literally sliding off my slick carbon fiber seat (especially at stop signs or just slowing down). I'm sure the fact I Turtle wax even my seat doesn't help, but it was almost comically bad. I've switched to somewhere in the -2 degree range and don't have that problem.
For Matt, those couple of watts (average 4.33W more for slammed) made the difference and the wattage has an almost perfect correlation to the faster times (-0.979).
TheBigCheese233 are you taking into account drag is a function of velocity squared? Going 2x as fast (calm day) requires 4x the power.
Thanks for your input. No, I haven't thought of that. But I guess for the small delta, a linear approach is a good approximation. (If it makes sense at all to look at this small sample size)
When considering power, drag is even worse: speed^3. The force is speed^2, but power is force times speed. Going twice as fast increases the power consumed by air resistance by a factor of 8! However, a few watts is not the answer here, because 4.3 W would be only a 1.3% change; need to account for much more to explain these results.
teddansonLA that's correct, Power = cD 1/2 ρ v³ A
from FD = cD 1/2 ρ v² A and P = FD v
You can find this on engineering toolbox under lift and drag article with an example worked out.
While I agree with the verdict, you can't calculate a correlation on just six data points. Technically you can, but it's as meaningless as a five-percent difference that cannot stand the test of significance and statistical power (and doesn't control for the weather conditions, the number of cars passing by or coming up in the opposite direction, which can have an effect as well).
I guess the pros don't just "slam the stam" and say: "great, now I am aero". They spend lots of time, also with other people (experts) to get their setup right.
... stem* ...
Thank you for your sharing this video about slamming. I am 67 and a social cyclist really. Cycling is all about enduring the pain right from the start. As we cycle thru the years old pain will go and new pain will come. Just my 2 cents, lol. Cheers
I've been riding with slammed stem for about 1year and it's more comfortable i.e. It takes a lot of pressure off your bum as your upper body weight is more distributed plus the aerodynamic benefits especially in headwinds.
Should you slam your stem? Yes of course. I saw this video and slammed the stem at home. Took out two spacers of 5mm each. I love the slammed position after a 50km test ride. My back felt better than it did with the “unslammed” position. I will turn 58 this August, ride a 54 size frame with a 90mm stem on an endurance fit. It worked great for me! Thank you for the video and thank ‘me’ for listening to myself!
Ive always rode a low stem, it just feels better...tho i have rode for years like so. Its takes a lot of flexiblilty to ride flat and tapering. Stretch !
remember that most pro's use a size smaller frame so the longer stem is a logical choice
Yeah, very often it looks like the frame is "too small" and they have a large stem and a very tall seat post.
It's Trump based on aliens in movie "They Live" from 1988
i cannot get any power through the legs if on the drops, slammed or not, it´s a very uncomfortable position fo rme
same for me but I have also short arms and torso and long legs for my size so my quads are kicking my torso all the time and I have ergo bars with long reach and drop so I bought cinelli vai compact shallow bars with 75 mm reach and 123 mm drop so I guess that will work better for me
They Live We Sleep - good points! I wonder if any of the pros have an issue with 'toe overlap'? Seems like if they have long feet it might be an issue with the size of the frames they ride.
i slammed the like button
Mr.ActionGal101 bottom?
XD
real mf cyclist hours
@@radiostation6366 sqq
I went from a 120mm -6 degree stem with 10mm of spacers and switched to a 140mm -12 degree stem with no spacers, was hard work but I found that yoga really helped me adapt faster. I use GCN/fitness channel yoga for cyclists which is great! could do with some more of that content!
i'll have to check out the yoga for cyclists video. good reminder!
Thanks! Got any particular yoga channel in mind?
would love to have a video about concerns of toe overlap when turning all the way to the left, tire hitting the toe of the shoe. Thanks!
I had a Guru Fit done over the winter...not only is my stem NOT slammed, it's actually flipped upwards...the result: I'm faster than I ever was before with a slammed stem and it angled downwards. A comfortable rider is a fast rider.
Please don't leave your house with a stem flipped upwards.
unchirrienparis why not?
3:43 ONEPLUS FOR LIFE
Thank you for your efforts! "6 observations per each situation" - this is already Something!
what's thepoint of an "aero position" if you have to go back once in a while to an upright position to relieve pain, what's the point of an "aero position" if it puts you at risk of an accident because you can't control the bike as well as with hands on handlebars
what's the point of an aero position if your usual race/tracks/sessions are on a circuit with hills and curves forcing you to constantly leave the said "aero position"
An "aero position" is valid only on flat and rolling road profile, but is counter productive on other road profiles, what's the point of gaining watts on the flat out part of a ride if it's to loose them because your "aeroposition" is not adapted/couterproductive for the coming steep hill...
"aero position" is good for pros who once in a while will ride on a time trial on a rolling course.
For the rest, get a "confortable position", put some aero bars on your handlebar for the rare long flat parts of your sessions/races, and you're done. satisfaction and performance guaranted.
I went directly from an 80mm stem with 25 degree rise with 30mm spacers to a 140mm slammed stem with a negative rise.
I tried various seat tilts for a while, but felt like I was wasting power trying to stay in the same position on the saddle. I think if companies start making seats to take advantage of more tilt, though for now I will stay with using a level saddle.
Just what we need: cyclists on hyper-slammed stems on the road with oversized trucks and wayward motorists. I've seen too many accidents involving cyclists emulating pro riders and trying to look awesome on shared roads.
Everyone has a different take on this but, I had slammed my stem before and the result was that I felt too elongated and uncomfortable so I gave up on it. However about six months ago I gave it another try and - just as an experiment - I slammed the saddle all the way forward at the same time. I use Fizik Arione saddles (which are long) and I usually have a seat post with about a 15mm lay-back. My saddle height was also kept exactly the same. As an additional measure (to compensate the saddle moving forward) I increased my stem length by 2cms. The result second time around, with the slammed saddle and stem was much better. More comfortable, more aero and being able to ride on the drops far longer and (seemingly) produce more power. I have now changed all my three bikes to this position and feel really happy with the difference it makes. Of course this works fine for me possible because of my limb length etc but maybe not for everyone. But it's always worth taking time to experiment I find and not give up. And I don't get any back pain either.
I'm a heavier rider. The lower my bars are, the more weight is pushed forward onto my arms, expending more effort and raising my heart rate. So it doesn't really help me. But if you weigh 140 lbs instead of 213, I imagine that effect might diminish.
Ian Snyder I'm weighting 78kg but if i slam, i end having to much weight on hands because I'm big on my upper body. So neck and shoulder pain.
L G That happens to me too. I could probably get used to it if I trained that way, but I don't race, so it doesn't matter enough to pursue. And with my lower spine having been injured, there's even more reason not to ride that way.
I'm almost 97kg and have a 127cm chest. It's a lot of weight to support. I should've taken up cycling instead of weight lifting when I was younger! :P
You probably need to compensate with your saddle position. Worth getting a bike fitter to look at it. My current position on my road bike looks very aggressive (slammed, long stem) at the front but once my bike fitter had got the saddle in the right place (all the way back on the rails), it was a natural way to set up the front with very little weight on the arms. So I would say a comfortable long low position is possible but it's probably a mistake to just change the position of the bars, you need to look at what it does to the whole bike fit overall.
Nick Sexton I've explored that too. Sadly, due to the weight in my upper torso, my point of balance is ridiculously outside the range of the seat rails. But I appreciate you taking the time.
Maybe I'll finally break down and buy a recumbent someday. ...But probably not. :)
Ian Snyder I guess you tried setback seatposts? I tracked down a canyon one with 35mm setback. And I think Selle SMP saddles have really long rails. Recumbent would definitely be even more aero anyway...
You guys have to make GCN- soundtrack. These beats are spot on for cycling.
"sorta speeds the pros do, w/o their power outputs" -Matt and Dan, 2 former pros lmfaooo
One issue is they were clearly careful to maintain the same forearm position. On the other hand, if when you lower your handlebar you straighten your arms, you're losing the benefit, and this is when not thinking about it, not when focused on a test.. I find when I adjust my position I like taking photos of myself from the side, and the back position tends to be relatively independent of handlebar height within a reasonable range. If I can't ride with bent elbows in the drops then the bar is too low, but if it's too comfortable in that position the bar is too high.
Thanks for this video, I had been considering slamming my stem. Now, however, I see no upside to slamming the stem outside a professional environment.
I did a 100km ride slammed like that in in the vid and struggled to walk for the next week. Incremental and with a good bike fitter would get the way to go I reckon.
Great video. Very easy to understand the points they were making.
Getting a little better at "science". At least you have a sample size of three. I do actually appreciate that you guys are testing this stuff. The more scientifically, the better.
This feels like a lot of suffering in the shoulders and at the base of the neck as you try to look forward while riding. It's most likely an interesting position if your body is used to it, but it takes time to get there and I reckon, a lot of pain.
Ive heard that cutting the steerer fork to its lowest position, which results in a zero spacer slammed position, reduces fork flex. My Planet X is cut and uses one tiny spacer, otherwise its slammed. Back is fine, but you do some upperbody exercise and stretches. Work on your core as well.
Which pro team did you ride for again Dan?
Dhruv Singal I think he rode for cervelo test team or something
The video doesn’t even mention the improvements to handling and steering from slamming your stem. I went from having all 4cm of spacers under my TCR stem to just having just the minimum 2.5mm spacer above the headset cone and the difference it made to the handling was huge, it now corners like it’s on rails thanks to the Overdrive 2 headset with oversized lower headset bearing. It’s also much more aero on the hoods so I don’t feel the need to use the drops any more for aero advantage. I find the position perfectly comfortable over 100 miles, although I’m in my mid-30’s and in good shape. My average speed has also increased. The only discomfort I had initially was numbness in hands on a long ride, so I straightened my wrist position by lowering the bar angle forward by a couple of degrees
Couple of things - when riding in the peloton the slammed position will be irrelevant as drafting far overrides aero position. When riding in slammed I find, like they did, that it is faster, but hard to sustain much longer than say a 20 minutes flat out attack. And if you are a climber and want to attack on the hill, slammed not relevant either. So depends on your riding style and strengths/weaknesses.
I was getting numbness with -6 degrees on the saddle so beware of that. I am now using -3 which is more comfortable than flat saddle for me atleast.
I wish these tests were more scientific.
I slammed my stem and my GF caught me and now she is angry. :(
PS: Anyone know how to get carbon grit paste off your banana?
Just sipe it😂😂😂
Switching to a smaller crank length would create the 'Slam' since the seat height would increase to get your legs back to the almost straight position. Your breathing would be easier because the knees don't approach the chest.
Matt, what have you done to your lovely bike? Quick releases pointing in weird directions and what is that on your Seat post?
Still, however, great Video as usual!
You might be better served by doing your test on an indoor velodrome maintaining a constant speed and measuring the power it takes to maintain that speed in each position. There would be a few less variables effecting the outcome.
WHAT MOUNTAINS SO BEAUTIFUL FROM WHERE THEY DID THE CHAPTER
A moment of silence please, for the egos that were lost during these tests.
video idea: Who is the most efficient GCN presenter ? ie. who pushes the lowest watt for a given speed
Karvin Sunny Li Lightest to heaviest. There's your answer.
Interesting to do same test up a long climb - would the lower front hinder climbing - is a higher front better for climbing - especially when standing
What muscles did you feel you activated in the slammed position?
I would not trade aero for power! The science shows extreme slammed position leads to less power due to pelvic tilt. As Dan quite correctly says he felt he produced less power and thats because he did. The test on a downhill run was all about aero not increasing power.
I can't understand how a perfectly horizontal saddle could be comfortable except for the tallest (and skinniest) riders? 5 degrees downward is preferable.
I got involved in the positioning challenge to the extent of inventing and patenting an adjustable-while-riding saddle to help accommodate varying position demands while riding. Here it is: ruclips.net/video/q8dXxUhuaBI/видео.html
Sounds like they got some new music now. Nice
Our man is stood here and we're going to sort him with his kit.
Where can I buy the slammer fsa stem?
I want to know aero difference between taller bars and in the drops vs slammed and on the hoods. same positions provide the body position but arm position is the difference here I want to know.
Which team kit was that, Dan?
Forget the few cm they were messing with here. The trend in recent years is to go for a seemingly ridiculous seat to bar drop. I guess aero is the reason. Look how much seat post shows on the pro bikes now. Compare it to the 90s when Lemond was racing. Not nearly as much post and they got in pretty aero positions with longer top tubes. The pros look like they're riding kids' bikes nowadays.
What tyre size should I use 27.5 or 29 for my road....I use that bike to go for a long distance.
I can barely get into the drops b/c of the pressure I feel in the saddle. Aero is uncomfortable as hell, adjusting the bars down so they're level with the stem just a few degrees - is a major pain in shoulders neck & lower back.
THERE ARE MANY FASHIONS BUT THE PENALTY IS NOT WORTHY to sacrifice comfort in aerodynamic careers, for that the aerodynamic studies are done in the frames to go faster and the wheels
The tilt of the saddle puts a lot more strain on shoulders and arms. If I tilt mine just a little I get a very uncomfortable sensation that I am sliding off and have to constantly push back. I can't imagine what 9 degrees would feel like.
Hey, I slammed my beach cruiser stem, it keeps the front wheel on the ground and handles great.
That Cervelo looks like a torture device from Saw2.
Do you think it has to do with keeping a more consistent position between a rider's tt and normal race position?
As others here mentioned it's a case of rotating your whole body, not just bending your head and torso down!
I went from the top to mid way sat on it then went all the way to the bottom wish I had done it sooner as it also handles better 🙂
This is reminiscent of the old saddle height formula and look circa 1975-1985, where power studies claimed optimization but riders could not stand to put hours daily in those positions. TT usually no more than an hour; riders know what they can tolerate for long duration, and I bet most will forego these tweaks as they suffer the consequences.
The question is what is drop from saddle to handlebars. And can you ride for example 150km with 14-17cm drop.
We saw you shooting this video two days before the Maratona! We're the three guys blocking your path. Sorry! Love the show!
Do you have the raw camera images to share? You slammed by us at full speed in in the Valparola downhill on the flat part.
I got about 3cm of spacers, but since my legs are so long I still have a almost 10cm drop from saddle to hoods.. And after a little 130km++ ride earlier this week my shoulders are pretty sore. Legs are fine though :)
WHen you slam the stem, you have to sit about 20% closer to the andlebars on your seat. don't put you hole arse on it, sit forward a bit on it so you can see a chunk of the seat coming out behind. That was stop your back problems
Do you think that it is worth to slam your stem for a better looking bike?
No lol enjoy back pain
How many degrees downward were the “slammed” stems?
I have flat handelbars and 80 mm stem should i slam it
Great video!
7:04 ok but how ? Saddle you can tilt gradually but how do you tilt the stem ?
You gradually remove spacers one by one to get accustomed to it
Great video @gcn
The lower height of the stem is a no brainer but what does the saddle tilt add to the equation?
Can i use adjustable stem in my roadbike and tilt it down to be more aerodynamic...
Ye
I have a slammed stem and negative stem. As a young rider on a team I'm on the bike a lot, but for the first few long rides or races my lower back did hurt a bit after but it is very comfortable now.
I tilted my seat slightly a couple of months back, it was more comfortable to get more aero and i got rid of numb nuts but started getting saddle sores, tried to get used to it for a month or so but couldn't get rid of saddle sores... ended up going back to numb nuts and the saddle sores have gone...
What angle did you tilt the seat to and do you use Chamois Butter before each ride? Also just out of curiosity do you have aero bars on your bicycle? My seat it tilted slightly down to -2 right now. I will be doing my first 30 mile ride on it this evening.
I slam my stem and find that I still could be even lower in the handle bars while still being comfortable, should I just remove my headset cap or should I spend a bit more on a stem with a -25 degree bend?
I understand the concept, but I personally don't believe the marginal gain coupled with the strain on my old body is worth it.
Who knows the brand of the stand in which the bike stand at the beginning of the video? 0:04 - 0:07
Can anyone tell me where to find one of those -17 FSA stems like that in the video? Literally looked everywhere.
forget fsa, get a fizik
you guys should play how low can you go on the bikes
0:46 Matt
really hoping you guys pick me for the quarq giveaway! Rode up a local mountain (14 miles , 3k ft climbing) the past 3 weekends and that power meter would really help with pacing it on future rides.
3:14 Matt. What neat glasses! Would you mind to share what brand and model is it?
Oakley Jawbreaker
neckbreakers
How come Dan never rides on the drops? I'm new to cycling and was just wondering if there would be a huge difference between riding on the drops and the hoods.
If I could lay on it, I would. I look like a lizard on my bike. LOL
Adjust the saddle forward to its max so it will be more comfortable