Tommy has it right. Have a set (perhaps 9 or 12) of professional, paid stewards. Have them rotate, 3 per race. Let them make decisions. If there is a terrible discrepancy....have them go back & all of them...through an appeal process and (9 or 12) weigh in & majority rules.
I would even take a team of 5-6 professional stewards/referees and when there is an incident you have 3 of them to judge it who have least "bias". Easy way to select those that judge is to exclude the judges that have same nationality as the 1. Drivers 2. Teams 3. Host country. With that criteria take the 3 judges that have least of an connection.
Take that one step further, you have a Head of stewards, whose role it is to advise the race stewards (selected from a pool of 6-8 full time stewards) and communcate to drivers and teams what is expected from the stewarding for each race, and then it is up to the stewards to refferee the race based on that. You have continutity for each race, with the stewards being directed by the same person, but the bias of individual descisions is removed (as much as possible) The problem with an appeals process like that, is that we all know that after every race, every descion will be appealled by the teams. If the driver in front of you has a 5 sec penalty, you do not have to pass them, knowing that you will finish ahead of them after the race and penalty is applied, so you would not go for a risky overtake, however, if there was no penalty, a driver might go for that same move.
I am pretty sure Herberts ragebait interviews are intentionally ragebait for the promotion of the gambling websites he does them with. He's never as outrageous with actual media, but when he is doing another interview with some obscure betting platform he really tows the line of admitting hes rigging it (generating a lot of traffic to said gambling site). Surely he gets compensated for doing those interviews because why else woukld he debase himself like that, which makes it all the more unprofessional. Either way the guy is a liability that should be nowhere near F1.
@@FormulaProg he didnt say it with those words, but the wording he used was clearly able to figure out he has a MASSIVE bias towards british drivers, specifically george and lando. added to that he also openly has stated he doesnt like max and fernando. combined with the fact he is directly associated with a gambling company... thats NOT good. he is a referee, he CAN change outcomes, and even the slightest MINIMAL indication of bias and/or Association with anything to do with gambling... should NEVER EVER be allowed to steward/referee ANYTHING.
Norris - Unsanctioned restart in 🇧🇷 - Fined €5,000 Mercedes - Tire pressure shenanigans in 🇧🇷 - Fined $10,000 (€5,000 per car) Tsunoda - Late for the pre-race national anthem in 🇨🇦 - Fined €10,000 Says it all really.
Lecleck & Max - Community service and $10 000 fine for saying F@ck Max - $50 000 fine for touching Hamilton rear wing after a race !!! If you cant see the clear b@llshit in that your blind!!
Kimi - Missing national anthem because he was having a shit - priceless (no penalty) Also Kimi 30 seconds time penalty for restart infringmenet Imola 2021
Ok then lest talk about the fact that a steward is allowed to work and advertise a betting site… how is that possible? Imagine a football ref advertising a betting site… the fans would riot
He proved everyone right who are saying he is biased. Why do respected people do this to themselves, what a 🤡. He sold his sole to betting agencies and now the bias is blatant. He makes controversial and unnecessary statements in the media, with the only aim of making himself feel relevant.
“If you had a steward that had said some bad things about Alonso in the past and then he has to make a decision on a penalty for Alonso” don’t need to imagine that scenario, when it happened as Damon Hill would penalise Michael Schumacher as a steward
Pretty sure they were specifically talking about Johnny Herbert. He has had a lot to say about Fernando, and then was involved with the decision where Nando slowed down and Russell crashed behind him.
The thing I have the biggest problem with is some of the penalties given itself. The fact that max and Charles were fined more than lando and both Mercedes for SWEARING is ridiculous. Norris potentially put the Marshalls lives at risk for starting another formation lap when he shouldn’t have and he’s fined less than swearing. Both Mercedes made clear starting infringements when changing tyre pressures after the setup time was over and during an aborted start and they get fined less than swearing. And both Mercedes and lando getting fines as penalties is ridiculous, Norris should’ve gotten a 10 second time penalty at least for formation lap infringement and both Mercedes should’ve gotten harsher penalties such as grid penalties or maybe disqualification but no lando and the Mercedes got fines. Something else that should change is penalty points, specifically the amount given. I remember earlier this year you guys talked about it and I think we should remind ourselves that getting 2 penalty points for causing a collision should be 3 penalty points. And if you’re racing hard and you force another driver off the track you should get 1 penalty point and not 3. And something else I have a problem with is the lap 1 leniency. I understand why the FIA are more lenient considering all the drivers are all packed together but there have been multiple occasions where some lap 1 collisions occurred with 1 driver clearly at fault and not getting penalised at all. an example is Monaco this year with Perez and Kevin, say what you want about if Perez could’ve moved away or not but kevin went for a move that was clearly impossible and caused a huge collision that took him, Perez and his teammate hulkenberg out of the race and he wasn’t penalised in the slightest. I could go on but I believe there needs to be a change in what penalties are given and how harsh they should or need to be and there shouldn’t be as much leniency on lap 1 as their is POST COMMENT - I googled it and yuki tsunoda was fined €10,000 for being late to the national anthem earlier this year, which is the same amount that max and Charles were fined for swearing
About herbert, i dont understand how somebody who is steward also can work for a bet-station? That would very suspisious imo. But then again, it does suite the FIA. They seem a little corupt.
Because F1 stewards are not paid. If they wanted stewards to abide arbitrary rules like not being allowed to be a presenter, not allowed to bet. Then they need to compensate with a salary. The only thing that matters is if the decisions were wrong. And Mexico was 100% accurate that both incidents should’ve been penalized.
@paperplane-db8qf that they are not paid needs to chance. But being a referee and working for a bet station will all ways be controversial in any sport especially when there are mistakes made. Also timing of safety cars and red flags doesnt ring a bell with you? Its wrong on all levels!
@@paperplane-db8qfPoor Herbert must be so broke after stealing a living as a Sky F1 pundit 🤣. Having a podcast with a betting site while also being a steward is a terrible look but I'm sure you can do some mental gymnastics to justify it.
there's always gonna be some level of bias, you can't eliminate that. but herbert's comment on max's penalty was as close to ACTUAL "british bias" i've seen in a hot minute. can't exactly blame max fans for jumping on that after all that happened in brazil can you.
The Mexico penalties was black and white. Doesn’t matter what someone says. There was nothing wrong with the penalty and decision. This is just cancel culture and anti free speech. Herbert can say what he wants and he has the right to do it like Max has the right to swear in press conferences apparently. If his decisions were controversial or against the rulebook then he overstepped and should be sacked. But it’s not.
@@paperplane-db8qf There was indeed nothing wrong with the penalty and decision. he vastly overstepped, and the penalty was more than warranted (the first one was harsh, the second was not harsh ENOUGH imo) a referee (who's tied to a gambling website btw, so that's fun), saying the direct beneficiary from his decision thought it was a great decision is idiotic. a british referee, saying a british driver, and a british team principal agreed with him, when he could just have used jos, max's fucking father as an example. or literally anyone else on the grid, of which there were MANY, who also agreed, is boneheaded.
@@paperplane-db8qf mexico penalties were far more severe for the same action compared to Austin. Overtaking off track, while hitting your opponent while doing it gets 5s in austin while regularly overtaking your opponent off track gets you 10s in Mexico.
@@ltaylor2799 Changing tyre pressures was entirely legal under the rules. The breach was not taking the tyres off the car beforehand. There was no unfair sporting advantage. A breach of regulations of this kind usually gets met with a fine and not a sporting penalty. It’s entirely consistent in my opinion.
They are and he's getting a ridiculous amount of hatred from fans that don't even know who he is. It's just boring at this point. What would you even have to talk about in formula one if it wasn't the FIA and the British media Rothschild that control everything 😂 You're such snowflakes.
If Max did what Lando did at the start in Brazil he’s def getting a sporting penalty. If Ferrari did what Mercedes did with tire pressure they’d def get a very harsh penalty.
Going on track ignoring yellow with marshalls on track 5k fine. Max touching Hamiltons wing 50k fine.. Doesn't make sense to me, would make more sense if it was the other way around. We need full disclosure what happens with fines too, it's ridiulous that drivers ask for almost 3 seasons now and still no answer. And is so hard to find stewards from countries that aren't from any of the drivers on the track?
Race director needed to have consequences for delaying the red flag. Stewards though, let Lando get away with a post-race investigator of something WAY WORSE than stalling on the grid which results in back of grid or pitlane start. And he lead the field onto a CLOSED TRACK WITH CAR RECOVERY. Lando gets to learn the rules, €5000 at a time? That sht don't fly with me. Stewards need to be recalled over this. ZERO WAY that Max would get away with that. Who in their right mind would think Max could do that and have a fine and reprimand???
I agree that this should come with a bigger fine for every driver that went around the circuit. But it's not affecting the race, so race penalties would be ridiculous. If you impede someone during Quali, that has implications on the race, you get a grid drop. If you cause a crash or overtake illegaly, that's 5 or 10 seconds. But we can't start disqualifying people or give them penalties for things that don't affect the race would be ridiculous. Where would that end? Max said the F-word in the post race interview, that's black and white flags. Liam shows Checo the finger, thats a stop and go penalty. Nah, give them a fine if you want to, make it 10k, they got the money, but don't start messing with the competitive order because of things that have absolutely no effect on racing action.
@@AKStovall So we're just gonna ignore the 100s of times max got preferential treatment and just focus on the one time he didn't and waa actually penalised for his actions? What he did on turn 1 in Austin wasn't even investigated because he did it on Lando, but when he did the exact same thing in Vegas, he got 5 seconds... Of course, that wasn't on Lando, that was on "il Predestinato", probably the only driver the stewards love more than max.They literally went over their heads to give Max his first title back in 2021...
I'm sure that Max would not have led the field onto a closed track in that situation, because he knows the rules better than anyone else on that grid! Pretty sure I heard him asking GP why they moving when that was not the procedure.
Mercedes changing tire pressures of tires that are affixed to a car is DQ. Mercedes got a fine. Two British drivers. Lando subtracted an entire lap from a GP. He got a fine.British driver.
to be honest I agree with this. It's done in a multitude of other professional sports, such as the NHL and MLB, and seems to work fine with video reviews.
@@zinedinezidane8398 why won't it fair? intentional or not, when you cause a red flag, you screwed every people who are doing their lap. It's like the penalty for impeding someone doing fast lap. It doesn't matter if you did it deliberately or not, when you impede someone you got a penalty.
but a red flag doesn't always stop other drivers from improving. Seems a little unfair if you cause a red flag with 10 mins to go and everyone else still gets 2 more laps.
There can't be a situation where stewards are trying to make up for the lack of stewarding by other stewards...if that makes sense. So if Max isn't getting properly penalized by the stewards of one race (COTA) it isn't up to the stewards of another race (Mexico) to over penalize him because of the stuff that happened the week prior. Same stewards for every race for the entire season.
Max wasn’t over penalized in Mexico. He got let off easily. The second one should’ve been a drive through penalty instead of a 10s. Other drivers got a drive through for far less:
@@paperplane-db8qf what do you think about Lewis Russell in Suzuka 2023 or 2022 then? because Lewis got a 0s penalty for that, yet nobody complained about it.
Wouldn't it be a good idea if the Stewards stay the same on every race but the cars would be in an "incognito" mode. This was the Stewards cannot show bias since they dont know who they are reviewing and are just seeing the incident. It also eliminates the inconsistency problem
Sometimes the car/driver involved is also an important consideration in an incident, like who was in the faster car etc. I think the stewards could maybe also try have some fun and guess which car is which and that would kinda defeat the purpose. But it does sound like a very interesting and maybe effective idea😂
No. Change the f****** subject. Stop making excuses for Max's outrageous driving. If his fans were actually honest and spoke out when he crossed the line as well as just complimenting when he drives well then we wouldn't be in this situation to begin with.
@@FormulaProg Alot of Max's fans already do that. Hence why everyone agreed that in Austin, Max penalties should have been 5 and 10 sec and especially the second one was over the line. And no one is saying he should not be penalized, but when others do it and get only 5 sec, or no penalties then questions are raised. Did he get away with alot in 2021, yes he did. Should he be penalized extra harsh this year because of the past? When Lando was doing the SAME thing in Austria, divebombing with no intentions of making a corner did he get the same penalities? No he did not. Did everyone talk about how ridiculous his moves were? No they did not, not even mentioned. Go and watch that race back and tell me that wasnt over the line. We ALL want clean but hard racing and sometimes they go over, but it is only Max that people talk about.
I still believe landos penalty would have been different for the starting infringement if max didnt take such a big points swing. Its almost like they thought he had a bad enough result and didnt want to add insult to injury.
There was a precedent last year in Monza when Sainz did exactly the same and got no penalty or even a fine. When they said Lando's start would be investigated after the race it was clear the possible penalty would never be seconds added to his race but rather either a grid penalty for Las Vegas or a fine.
@@kaspershaupt it was dangerous. There was a tractor with marshals on a wet track and go-around laps are not speed limited. We were lucky nothing happened
@@NeedforMine1They were moving quite slow, the visibility was good at the time and they knew where the tractor was. Not ideal but not that dangerous either.
@@soundscape26 The rain in 2014 was not that bad either. Marshals and a recovery vehicle were busy clearing a previously crashed car and Bianchi aquaplaned into the vehicle in the same corner. He died. Lando took that risk. He was in the wet and weaving to warm up his tires. Great recipe for a crash due to lack of control or something else. We all saw how easy it was to slide off the track and into the walls. For causing a potential Bianchi moment, he gets a slap on the wrist and an ice cream money worth of a fine. I guess more blood needs to flow before regulations and common sense kicks in...
Lando deserved a much harsher penalty for his aborted start infringement. It was a safety issue first and foremost, but also impacted the race by subtracting a race lap.
@@nollienick1121 no verstappen and his fans, nothing is ever your fault, how is someone else to blame and if anything goes wrong it's a conspiracy against you.
Herbert not just talking on some website, no, had to be a gambling website. Totally insane if you are a contest judge or a game referee, but apparently not if you are a steward at the pineacle of motorsport
Masi slander needs to stop, teams and drivers agreed they'd do everything to make sure a race wouldn't end under a safety car anymore and he did.. bring him back
Nah sorry we're not doing Masi revisionist history lol, even without considering Abu Dhabi he deserved to go - the handling of Spa and all the fans that got screwed out of refunds, starting sessions with recovery vehicles still on track, haggling penalties with teams over the radio, constant questionable calls (okay we still have that but still) etc. This isn't a binary thing, just because stewarding is bad now doesn't mean Masi was good. Two things can be bad at the same time 😅
4:30 - When I used to watch more passionately I always had the FIA site open to quickly access the regulations if there was a question that came up. They're actually 107 pages long and there are only about 18 pages that deal with the race itself, and half of those are about the starting procedure. The FIA site also has other interesting information about the current race.
Full-time professionals Stewards must be number one on the list of reforms. Yeah, those Stewards can rotate each race but they should all be paid professionals who spend their weekdays studying footage etc so they can get better, faster, etc.
Maybe inspiration could be found in the sailing world where the range and complexity of situations that have to be judged is comparable to F1. Rules are more part of the game in sailing but looking at the last Americas cup editions I think a lot could be learned in terms of communication around the stewards decisions, valorising the work they do and trying to show. Setting a call book that dictates the stewards response or serves him as a guideline to take their decisions based on previous incidents and a clearer rule book would also help. They're always be tensions between fans, athletes and the "referees" like in every other sport but F1 has clearly a lot to learn on this topic
Any off track overtakes should be subject to a "give the place back" penalty. If not immediately acted on then a drive through is the penalty. None of this "I can get 10 sec ahead" bollox.
Maybe cutting the corners and getting 10s ahead will be the only viable overtake on Monaco next time around. Surely Max pulling that will get them to change it.
FIA will always find a way to get what they want. It was clear from Saudi Arabia when Lando wasn’t penalised for a false start that the FIA were already pushing for a Lando, McLaren win this year, continually allowing them to get away with everything. Mini DRS, front wing etc….
Yes and no. RB had benefits for a while, Mercedes have, Ferrari have. All teams have these situations at some point. Mclarens drs stuff was not a literal illegal part thst was in the rule book. F1 teams always bend the rules to find the absolute limit and the mini drs was one of them. RB's brake bias was one of them, Mercedes' DAS was one of them. F1 has always been about innovative technology
9:30 Reminds me of the EURO 2024 with Germany vs Spain where there was a clear handplay by Spain and the ref didn't even went to look at the scene and months after they agreed that it was a mistake and it should've been a penalty. The game resulted in a loss for Germany and everyone agreed that that was well shit and an undeserved victory for Spain.
Leaving the pit exit with the red light on is a slam dunk black flag. I don’t see why it should be different for leaving the dummy grid at an aborted start without a green light.
F1 should do it like soccer, where there’s a different referee each match who’s helped by a few assistants, and their performance gets reviewed after every match to see if they did a good refereeing job. The main steward would still make the final decisions but could be helped by a var team to review all the different angles of an incident.
Solution is simple. Have the stewards in a dark room, they get a sanitized feed without driver details. They make decisions there and then based on objective data.
@@johannessamuelsson6578 It's achievable overall. It starts by penalizing properly. The two Max Verstappen incidents were clearly different, yet they were penalized the same. If the first incident was a 10 second penalty, then the second one should have been a 15 or 20 second penalty (or 5 for the first, 10 for second, etc.). It's being consistant with the penalities that I mean. I know every incident is different.
As a casual F1 fan: can somebody explain to me why there was absolutely no reaction to Norris going wide in Brazil, cutting the track short and gaining a massive advantage (he would've lost 2-3 more positions had he re-joined straight away)? There was no reaction at all, even the commentators didn't say a word. I was so confused how that's allowed.
Max’s 20 second penalty was ridiculous, yes he pushed the limit but I felt for the first incident it was a racing incident the second, oke fair enough but 20 seconds was completely biased and honestly Johnny shouldn’t be a steward
He didn’t get a 20 second penalty. He got 2 10 second penalties. Both of which were 100% warranted by the letter of F1 regulation. So to say he didn’t deserve 20 seconds is objectively incorrect. What would you have given instead?
5 seconds for both incidents would be fair imo. 10 seconds for both is insane. He did get a 20 second penalty for getting 2 10 second penalties back to back, its called maths, the penalties stacked.
@@peppers515 the thing i find stupid is that lando only got a 5 sec penalty for the same incident a race ago. Its crazy to me that their can be a difference in getting a penalty for the same incident. Atleast that is something that would be an easy fix imo.
@@NotSosigRamsey are you blind or just ignorant? Max pulled something straight from an F1 online lobby. He made zero attempt to make the corner, he just wanted to shove Lando off the track for daring to pass him. You were also referring to Max getting a 20 second penalty like it was a single incident. When he actually received 2x 10 second penalties. The outcome is the same but the ramifications are different. It’s like getting 2 yellow cards vs getting a straight red in football. I think Tommy had it right on the podcast. There’s no way you could put both incidents in the same category. Saying they’re both only worthy of 5 seconds is absolutely WILD! Kmag was getting 10 seconds for less in Miami and no one was complaining about them not being warranted.
@@tomb9337 Well no, he got a 5 second penalty for leaving the track and gaining an advantage. Max got his penalty for forcing another driver off the road. George got a 5 second for forcing Bottas off, so there’s an argument to be made there. This is where interpretation kinda comes in to it in that you could argue what George did to Bottas was far less egregious/less severe. Drivers also said at the start of the year they wanted harsher penalties and for 10 second to be the baseline. I got back to Kmag in Miami again as my example.
If you are demanding professionalism from the teams and drivers, then I think it is entirely reasonable to expect the same from the FIA and the stewards across the entire scope of Motor sport.
Whilst the penalty system itself isn't great, with a limited range of penalties offering too harsh/lenient a solution for many incidents, I'll play devil's advocate and say that the stewarding has actually been fairly consistent this year. For the first time, watching F1 for 20 years, I feel like I know exactly how the steward's will respond to x, y or z, which is exactly how it should be. The driver's shouldn't be playing a penalty lottery, it's not sporting.
I mostly agree, especially compared to recent seasons since 2017 or so, but I feel it’s gone a bit weird in the last few races. Admittedly that’s since COTA: perhaps the championship context affected them?
In my opinion, the stewards have been particularly inconsistent this year. Verstappen pushes Sainz off at Austin and doesn't get a penalty for it while he does the same to Norris at Mexico and gets a 10 second penalty (which clearly was the stewards compensating for Austin). Right or wrong is objective but at least, be consistent. Right now, it feels like they're just randomly pressing buttons and we are supposed to believe that they're following some imaginary rulebook.
@@nikhileshkillada4217 The rules are very clear on being ahead at the apex, whether it's a good rule or not. The COTA incident was absolutely not a penalty, and the Mexico incident absolutely was. If you know the rules, you knew exactly what would follow in both instances. It is imaginary if you're ignorant to it.
I am afraid this is not going to help. If the media has a bias against some drivers and portray them as dirty drivers then eventually this will have an effect on not only the fans but also the stewards. Stewards will more likely give these drivers a heavier punishment.
Having Jos as the reason Herbert was commenting it's a bit more cheeky vs insane like it originally sounded. You mean one of the driver's dad's has a bias!? I hear his opponents agreed with me though
In the NRL (rugby league aust) they have Graham Annesley the head of NRL operations has a weekly brief who, in front of a monitor, weekly will go through and talk about the penalty and why it was given (on contentious decisions) he on occasions does say the ref got it wrong and generally that ref is dropped for the next game. It's all checks and ballances that allow transparancy and how they came to their decision. They even use older footage as to why one is different to the other. Id like to see F1 do the same thing, talk about the decisions and if they got it wrong, dump the person who made it and let someone else step in.
With the tech we have now it should be fairly easy to have a system that can render the incident with a neutral grey car in a 3d model. Have a couple of stewards not able to see the actual race, when an incident happens they see this version. If they can't identify the cars and they don't know who is who then they can't be biased.
If you watch SailGP or the America’s cup you can see the race course, boundaries, start line, previous courses, distance between competitors, and the speed of everyone even though the entire thing is on water, so it’s all virtual AND live. It’s amazing. You can enforce distance and time penalties with virtual measurements shown live to the referee and the audience to ensure compliance. The technology is available.
How many stewards work out the penalties in F1? In v8 Supercars there is a couple of stewards that determine a a penalty which the given the the DSO (Same person for every race) which makes the final decision. Then the penalty is announced by the race director.
The main thing that needs to change IMO is bringing back drive-through penalties when an advantage has been gained. Like Mexico, Max got ahead by breaking the rules, so instead giving him 20 seconds, not only ruining his race but allowing him to stay in front and holding Lando back is just ridiculous. You're also punishing the driver that was the victim in that scenario. And yes, same goes for Landos overtake in Austin... Pass the pitlane, do not collect fresh tyres, do not collect $200... You didn't get the place on merit, so you need to give up track position, and a drive through is a lot more sensible to do so than 10 seconds to use up at your earliest convenience.
I've said for years about all sport, you want good referees. Give them grades and trophies. Referee of the year. For individuals and working teams. They get more champions league more world cup games. Triple crown events etc... Best Steward in the world trophy. More correct calls than anyone else. Deduction of points when they get it wrong. They'd fight harder to get it right.
04:00 YES! International cricket now broadcasts the third umpire actually talking out loud his process of decision making while showing us the camera angles he is seeing! I think showing us the basic camera angles that the stewards have used to make the decision would make this a lot easier to digest seemingly random penalties.
It's insane how Verstappen got a penalty for turn 4 in Mexico when he lost the position to Norris. Perez a few laps later does the same to Lawson and to Stroll and doesn't even get a warning on either of them. I'm not saying Perez should get a penalty, because no driver who stays all 4 wheels on track and loses a position by staying on track ever gets a penalty, except for Verstappen of course. Double standards every single time. Whether it is touching another car in Parce Fermé, whether it is swearing, whether it is track limits or pushing people off track during the race.
What needs to happen is the return of the drive through and the stop/go penalties, a 10 second penaltiy at some point in the race is never going to stop a determined cheat but losing say 40 seconds to a stop/go within 3 laps might well stop the cheat.
In Rugby, Cricket and Football there are world councils for officials. Refs, Umps etc, build experience up over YEARS, do seminars and training…just like the players/athletes …and is highly professional. Considering the money involved in motor-racing , how can the FIA possibly not have professional officials?! Its absolutely pathetic. Just because you were a driver 30years ago does not mean you understand or know any rules.
Stewards and race director roles aside, I think something that needs to come back is the drive through penalty, and the stipulation you have to serve the penalty inside three laps from when the penalty was given. This will stop the stupid "if i pass and get a penalty, ill outrun the penalty and it wont have an effect" nonsense. And it is a big penalty as well so stops people doing stupid things to try and play the rules because the risk is not worth the potential punishment. Remove the +5 or +10 seconds penalties. Or if you do have them, enforce the pitstop within 3 laps again.
The after the race investigations are the worst….we’ve gone hours before finding out the final standings before only to find out the order is nothing like what we watched. That really has got to stop
I think to solve the “investigate after the race” issue, there should be a time limit of like 15 minutes from when an incident happened to a penalty being given out. If you can’t make a decision after that amount of time, it wasn’t worthy of a penalty. And also if there’s a potential penalty stemming from the last few laps that affects the podium finishers, DO NOT HAVE THE CELEBRATION until a decision is made; with a 15 minute time limit from the end of the race the podium celebration should only be delayed a maximum of like 5 minutes.
3:00 Is probably the right way to have it for some stewards. It would also help to have drivers to have that perspective. The best thing is to also have an open system to show the whole decision, whether it's accurate, and whether former drivers would agree with the decision. Also perhaps bring in Russell of the GPDA, (and perhaps Vettel) to hash out standards for the rules. Then make it clear in the drivers meetings.
5s penalties need to be abolished. They're generally worthless if it's added to your race time. I'd propose a "level 1" penalty is 5s if served during a pit stop, but 10s if added to your race time. Or something to that effect. But I still think 5s is nothing if you take your competitor out of the race. If you're at fault, and you cause a race ending accident, you shouldn't be classified at the end of the race
Also imagine watching any other sport and the penalty came after the game. You win the grand final but 5 mins before there was an illigal hit on a player which meant that the score wouldnt be recorded which means the wrong team won? We have enough tech to make decisions straight away. Every car has cameras and telemetry. Christ let AI just sort it out if they wont.
@@LMevana what? Like completely driving off the track in Mexico just so Lando didn't make the corner? Any other driver would have been black flagged for that. Stop playing the victim.
@FormulaProg How am i the victim here? The Mexico 2nd one was deserved that's fine, US GP russel penalty was nonsense which Toto happened to mention after Alonso in Spain another nonsense decision Max Austria more BS Start violation and no penalty also more BS Not everything is about Verstappen
@@LMevana I don't have time to get into all of those most of it is open to debate. The whole reason this is happening is because fans complain when the stewards don't get involved, everyone wants them to race then we let them race You get a few controversial incidents and everyone starts complaining and asking for penalties all the time. Harsher and harsher and then we go back to square one. It's stupid. You're right, it's not always about verstappen but that's where this controversy came from mostly
3:50 Honestly, you can say that about every sport that FIA sanctions. Since 2021, the FIA has realized that they don't have enough stewards nor race directors, but I have yet to hear any solutions to those issues and well... Ben... seems concerned with other things 5:36.... You would think that they need more time, but I raised you the WEC/WSC where this can STILL happen (That and failing post-race technical inspection). In 6hr to 24hr races. It's rarer because of the time but yeah that is some BS.
you need consistency somewhere. either a detailed rule book that anyone can interpret and apply OR a more flexible rule book but with the same experienced personnel in place to make well educated / experienced and good decisions.
In the age of video refs in most sports they are literally racing supercomputers but still have to rely on passing slips of paper to the broadcasters with just a code number.
Tommy's point about referee training is interesting - in the NFL, our referees actually do so part-time. Some of them are lawyers, business owners, etc.
I'm with Tommy here, Having different stewards is basically like having different referees in football, they rotate as not to have the same biases carried from one race to the other throughout the entirety of the season. How hard can it be to train a group of 10/15 people to perform their duties according to F1's rulebook? 100% consistency will always be impossible, they're human and sometimes they won't even agree with each other. Whet it comes to Lando in Brazil it was obvious the penalty would never be seconds, that's why they left it for after the race... would never have an impact on the final standings.
I know this will sound ridiculous but what about 20 stewards? 1 steward per car. They can fully focus on 1 car while racing and communicate with the other steward if the driver they are in charge with gets involved with the other driver. They can also rotate the stewards among the driver so there isn't bias. English is not my best language.
i Think we should have 6 stewards the whole Season, but only 4 of them per Race. 1 of the 4 is always a represent of the Country, so you'd only had to rotate the other 3 slots throughout the Season. That should somehow be managable even if i think that the FIA could even mess this up like they always do.
They need a team of professional stewards accompanied by an ex-F1 driver as an advisor (as now - the driver does NOT currently have any powers. They can only tell the stewards why a thing is likely to be accidental or deliberate, etc), and a local advisor, someone who knows the track inside out and can explain why a car is likely to react in a particular way at that particular point. Again, _advisor,_ with no decision making powers. Edit: I meant to say that I think the professional stewards should come from a pool of 5 minimum, and rotate them. No ex-F1 racers to be among them!
They should get a bank of previous incidents from the last 10 years and decide what is the correct penalty for that incident. Then when something happens they just find a parallel from the bank of precedent. There will always be exceptions and new events but for the majority it will be better and fair.
What really needs to happen is transparency. The F1 media should interview the stewards in a public format and allow the stewards and/or the directors to explain their decisions in more detail. Also display penalties on the graphic!
in supermotocross the race director comes on the broadcast and explains situations they make so we can better understand the decision. They should do that in f1 too
I like the idea of a bigger team of stewards rotating each round but having a head steward and maybe a deputy head steward(?) who are there to ensure consistency across the season. Looking at most of the penalties awarded I think there are some things (i.e. track limits) that are pretty cut and dry most of the time so should be decided quickly. The most complicated penalties like Lando v. Max, for example, could then be decided a little slower but you'd know the state of play sooner still and the penalty would be consistent with other rounds.
F1 penalties seem to fall into only two categories - nothing burgers or race ending. They recently upgraded most +5 sec penalties to +10 sec, but there's then a huge gap until you get to the drive-through or stop and go penalties. Side note: Why can't the main feed show outstanding time penalties like we get in iRacing or other games?
With all the data and tracking they have on the cars. I wonder how hard it would be to create a virtual version of incidents without any idea of who any of the drivers are. Removing bias.
12:42 as an Argentinean, I must say that you ignited a fire with that sentence, watch the whole country rooting for it lol (People here are being are super intense about Franco, I swear they'd get up and light a candle for him everyday if needed lmao)
I still think, most of this can be evaded by implementing more natural penalties like a wall, gravel, grass or anything else. Unless absolutely necessary no stewards has to be involved and it would be the same for any driver
To reduce the bias we can use some “simple” data analysis to review all the decisions made looking at the type of incident, driver, decision made by each Stewart. That would create a heap of consistency by identifying the outliers and allow us to address Stewart giving preference to a driver/team. The Stewarts could meet a couple of times a year to review and hold each other accountable. There could be a “penalty” system for the stewards to “encourage” them to be impartial.
I think first of all they need to be equal There are hundreds of cases when 2 drivers did exactly the same thing, but the penalty was totally different or in 1 case the penalty was harsh, in other small and in another one there was no penalty at all
Have an established panel where they are trained using previous Grands Prix scenarios in a live replay where their decisions are scrutinized by a Safety expert, an experienced track marshall, an actual racing driver and F1 fans of every team(for a biased perspective they can use as a benchmark)
I just can't wrap my mind around the FIA with their hundreds of screens not being able to check the onboards of each of the drivers that took off with Lando during the aborted start whilst I could with just my one screen.
Part of the issue with people not knowing why stewards made decisions, it has to be said, is the commentators not knowing the rules. Yes some of these rules are more niche, but when your full time job is commentating on F1 and basically giving the audience context for what’s going on, it is absolutely necessary that the commentators know the rules, so even if the stewards don’t do what you pitched and send into the main broadcast their reasonings, the commentators can know the rule well enough to either explain the ruling, or explain why they think it’s wrong. Right now it seems they’re as confused as we are during races.
Herbert is a very good example of what a Steward should NOT be. Works with a Sports betting site (wtf?). Gives childish reasons to support his decisions. Is inconsistent with the penalties given. Yaps to the media way too much. That is why we need professional, payed stewards, not some has been with a gripe.
The problem is that even when there is the opportunity to use common sense, they don't. Sainz getting heavily penalised for the stewards error at Las Vegas last year was ridiculous.
First, it wasn't the stewards' error. It was a problem with the track. Second, there was no mechanism to allow the stewards to reverse the penalty. Even if they could, it would require the agreement of the other teams, and Wolff already indicated he would not agree.
That intro is gonna haunt me tonight wont it...
Edit: this is my first comment that got more than 10 likes, thank you internet
Yep…. Time to get blackout
Baby doll with a rotating Matt head kinda vibes 💀💀💀
Tommy cupping Matt was mad
Cannot unsee
Almost as frightening as seeing an Alpine double podium.
Tommy has it right. Have a set (perhaps 9 or 12) of professional, paid stewards. Have them rotate, 3 per race. Let them make decisions. If there is a terrible discrepancy....have them go back & all of them...through an appeal process and (9 or 12) weigh in & majority rules.
I would even take a team of 5-6 professional stewards/referees and when there is an incident you have 3 of them to judge it who have least "bias". Easy way to select those that judge is to exclude the judges that have same nationality as the 1. Drivers 2. Teams 3. Host country. With that criteria take the 3 judges that have least of an connection.
But they can’t be British or same thing will happen every race
Take that one step further, you have a Head of stewards, whose role it is to advise the race stewards (selected from a pool of 6-8 full time stewards) and communcate to drivers and teams what is expected from the stewarding for each race, and then it is up to the stewards to refferee the race based on that. You have continutity for each race, with the stewards being directed by the same person, but the bias of individual descisions is removed (as much as possible)
The problem with an appeals process like that, is that we all know that after every race, every descion will be appealled by the teams. If the driver in front of you has a 5 sec penalty, you do not have to pass them, knowing that you will finish ahead of them after the race and penalty is applied, so you would not go for a risky overtake, however, if there was no penalty, a driver might go for that same move.
Love this. The teams and broadcasters have people back at base who inform those at the track, why can’t the stewards have the same?
Herbert saying out loud he has a bias and still not being fired is fking ridiculous.
Huhhh where
I am pretty sure Herberts ragebait interviews are intentionally ragebait for the promotion of the gambling websites he does them with. He's never as outrageous with actual media, but when he is doing another interview with some obscure betting platform he really tows the line of admitting hes rigging it (generating a lot of traffic to said gambling site). Surely he gets compensated for doing those interviews because why else woukld he debase himself like that, which makes it all the more unprofessional. Either way the guy is a liability that should be nowhere near F1.
He literally never said that.
Need video proof for this
@@FormulaProg he didnt say it with those words, but the wording he used was clearly able to figure out he has a MASSIVE bias towards british drivers, specifically george and lando. added to that he also openly has stated he doesnt like max and fernando. combined with the fact he is directly associated with a gambling company... thats NOT good. he is a referee, he CAN change outcomes, and even the slightest MINIMAL indication of bias and/or Association with anything to do with gambling... should NEVER EVER be allowed to steward/referee ANYTHING.
Norris - Unsanctioned restart in 🇧🇷 - Fined €5,000
Mercedes - Tire pressure shenanigans in 🇧🇷 - Fined $10,000 (€5,000 per car)
Tsunoda - Late for the pre-race national anthem in 🇨🇦 - Fined €10,000
Says it all really.
Lecleck & Max - Community service and $10 000 fine for saying F@ck
Max - $50 000 fine for touching Hamilton rear wing after a race !!!
If you cant see the clear b@llshit in that your blind!!
Kimi - Missing national anthem because he was having a shit - priceless (no penalty)
Also Kimi 30 seconds time penalty for restart infringmenet Imola 2021
Johnny saying that Zak Brown and Lando agree with him is crazy
It is intentional. He said it to some betting website which then gets mentioned because Herbert says wacky shit. It is ragebait advertising.
Ok then lest talk about the fact that a steward is allowed to work and advertise a betting site… how is that possible? Imagine a football ref advertising a betting site… the fans would riot
He proved everyone right who are saying he is biased.
Why do respected people do this to themselves, what a 🤡.
He sold his sole to betting agencies and now the bias is blatant.
He makes controversial and unnecessary statements in the media, with the only aim of making himself feel relevant.
Yeah and he's correct
Actually, that is dis*usting.
“If you had a steward that had said some bad things about Alonso in the past and then he has to make a decision on a penalty for Alonso” don’t need to imagine that scenario, when it happened as Damon Hill would penalise Michael Schumacher as a steward
Pretty sure they were specifically talking about Johnny Herbert. He has had a lot to say about Fernando, and then was involved with the decision where Nando slowed down and Russell crashed behind him.
Yep, 20 whole seconds for embarrassing the FIA
The thing I have the biggest problem with is some of the penalties given itself. The fact that max and Charles were fined more than lando and both Mercedes for SWEARING is ridiculous. Norris potentially put the Marshalls lives at risk for starting another formation lap when he shouldn’t have and he’s fined less than swearing. Both Mercedes made clear starting infringements when changing tyre pressures after the setup time was over and during an aborted start and they get fined less than swearing. And both Mercedes and lando getting fines as penalties is ridiculous, Norris should’ve gotten a 10 second time penalty at least for formation lap infringement and both Mercedes should’ve gotten harsher penalties such as grid penalties or maybe disqualification but no lando and the Mercedes got fines. Something else that should change is penalty points, specifically the amount given. I remember earlier this year you guys talked about it and I think we should remind ourselves that getting 2 penalty points for causing a collision should be 3 penalty points. And if you’re racing hard and you force another driver off the track you should get 1 penalty point and not 3. And something else I have a problem with is the lap 1 leniency. I understand why the FIA are more lenient considering all the drivers are all packed together but there have been multiple occasions where some lap 1 collisions occurred with 1 driver clearly at fault and not getting penalised at all. an example is Monaco this year with Perez and Kevin, say what you want about if Perez could’ve moved away or not but kevin went for a move that was clearly impossible and caused a huge collision that took him, Perez and his teammate hulkenberg out of the race and he wasn’t penalised in the slightest.
I could go on but I believe there needs to be a change in what penalties are given and how harsh they should or need to be and there shouldn’t be as much leniency on lap 1 as their is
POST COMMENT - I googled it and yuki tsunoda was fined €10,000 for being late to the national anthem earlier this year, which is the same amount that max and Charles were fined for swearing
About herbert, i dont understand how somebody who is steward also can work for a bet-station?
That would very suspisious imo.
But then again, it does suite the FIA.
They seem a little corupt.
Because F1 stewards are not paid. If they wanted stewards to abide arbitrary rules like not being allowed to be a presenter, not allowed to bet. Then they need to compensate with a salary.
The only thing that matters is if the decisions were wrong. And Mexico was 100% accurate that both incidents should’ve been penalized.
@paperplane-db8qf that they are not paid needs to chance. But being a referee and working for a bet station will all ways be controversial in any sport especially when there are mistakes made.
Also timing of safety cars and red flags doesnt ring a bell with you?
Its wrong on all levels!
@@paperplane-db8qfPoor Herbert must be so broke after stealing a living as a Sky F1 pundit 🤣. Having a podcast with a betting site while also being a steward is a terrible look but I'm sure you can do some mental gymnastics to justify it.
Nobody understands
@@paperplane-db8qf Of course you would said it is accurate but stayed silent for Brazil huh?
there's always gonna be some level of bias, you can't eliminate that. but herbert's comment on max's penalty was as close to ACTUAL "british bias" i've seen in a hot minute. can't exactly blame max fans for jumping on that after all that happened in brazil can you.
The Mexico penalties was black and white. Doesn’t matter what someone says. There was nothing wrong with the penalty and decision.
This is just cancel culture and anti free speech. Herbert can say what he wants and he has the right to do it like Max has the right to swear in press conferences apparently.
If his decisions were controversial or against the rulebook then he overstepped and should be sacked. But it’s not.
@@paperplane-db8qf There was indeed nothing wrong with the penalty and decision. he vastly overstepped, and the penalty was more than warranted (the first one was harsh, the second was not harsh ENOUGH imo) a referee (who's tied to a gambling website btw, so that's fun), saying the direct beneficiary from his decision thought it was a great decision is idiotic. a british referee, saying a british driver, and a british team principal agreed with him, when he could just have used jos, max's fucking father as an example. or literally anyone else on the grid, of which there were MANY, who also agreed, is boneheaded.
not giving merc a penalty for the tyre pressure violation was beyond usual bias. it’s just flagrant at this point.
@@paperplane-db8qf mexico penalties were far more severe for the same action compared to Austin. Overtaking off track, while hitting your opponent while doing it gets 5s in austin while regularly overtaking your opponent off track gets you 10s in Mexico.
@@ltaylor2799 Changing tyre pressures was entirely legal under the rules. The breach was not taking the tyres off the car beforehand. There was no unfair sporting advantage. A breach of regulations of this kind usually gets met with a fine and not a sporting penalty. It’s entirely consistent in my opinion.
Why is nobody even talking about the fact that Herbert is connected to a gambling site?
Yea i'm amazed people are literally "whatever" when it comes to him lol
They are and he's getting a ridiculous amount of hatred from fans that don't even know who he is. It's just boring at this point. What would you even have to talk about in formula one if it wasn't the FIA and the British media Rothschild that control everything 😂 You're such snowflakes.
Is that illegal?
@slaphands Being active as a steward, it should be.
@@slaphands7703 GAMBLING SITE + BEING A REFEREE.
Free reign on corruption.
If Max did what Lando did at the start in Brazil he’s def getting a sporting penalty. If Ferrari did what Mercedes did with tire pressure they’d def get a very harsh penalty.
Ferrari (or anyone other than the british teams) would be disqualified
You're so damn right...🤔
Well, the burden of proof is on you
Like Ferrari got harshly penalized when they were cheating/bending the rules with their fuel? We still don’t exactly know what went down there.
@@soundscape26you are clearly blind.
F1 penalties need to be directly sponsored by the new Kit Kat branding, "track limits violation, 5 second time penalty. Have a break, have a kit kat!"
This sounds like a joke but Americans are legit doing shit like this in Nascar, there are last lap only sponsors etc ...
“The Big One, sponsored by FTX”
@@nettlecider that's where I got the idea from, just need to replace the lolly pop with a kit kat chunky as well
Going on track ignoring yellow with marshalls on track 5k fine. Max touching Hamiltons wing 50k fine.. Doesn't make sense to me, would make more sense if it was the other way around. We need full disclosure what happens with fines too, it's ridiulous that drivers ask for almost 3 seasons now and still no answer. And is so hard to find stewards from countries that aren't from any of the drivers on the track?
ye, that 50k for touching a wing one was a clown show. With Seb even mocking it afterwards "I'll only touch the front one, maybe it's only 25k" 😂
They actually should male it related to the salary. A 50k fine for max is half a day work. A 10k fine for tsunoda is 4 days of work.
Race director needed to have consequences for delaying the red flag.
Stewards though, let Lando get away with a post-race investigator of something WAY WORSE than stalling on the grid which results in back of grid or pitlane start. And he lead the field onto a CLOSED TRACK WITH CAR RECOVERY. Lando gets to learn the rules, €5000 at a time? That sht don't fly with me. Stewards need to be recalled over this.
ZERO WAY that Max would get away with that. Who in their right mind would think Max could do that and have a fine and reprimand???
exactly. they would DSQ max so fast, heads would spin.
I agree that this should come with a bigger fine for every driver that went around the circuit. But it's not affecting the race, so race penalties would be ridiculous. If you impede someone during Quali, that has implications on the race, you get a grid drop. If you cause a crash or overtake illegaly, that's 5 or 10 seconds. But we can't start disqualifying people or give them penalties for things that don't affect the race would be ridiculous. Where would that end? Max said the F-word in the post race interview, that's black and white flags. Liam shows Checo the finger, thats a stop and go penalty. Nah, give them a fine if you want to, make it 10k, they got the money, but don't start messing with the competitive order because of things that have absolutely no effect on racing action.
@@AKStovall So we're just gonna ignore the 100s of times max got preferential treatment and just focus on the one time he didn't and waa actually penalised for his actions? What he did on turn 1 in Austin wasn't even investigated because he did it on Lando, but when he did the exact same thing in Vegas, he got 5 seconds... Of course, that wasn't on Lando, that was on "il Predestinato", probably the only driver the stewards love more than max.They literally went over their heads to give Max his first title back in 2021...
I'm sure that Max would not have led the field onto a closed track in that situation, because he knows the rules better than anyone else on that grid! Pretty sure I heard him asking GP why they moving when that was not the procedure.
@@bl4xxun 100 times? as usual Max haters can only lie and spread hoaxes.
Mercedes changing tire pressures of tires that are affixed to a car is DQ. Mercedes got a fine. Two British drivers. Lando subtracted an entire lap from a GP. He got a fine.British driver.
Lewis was disqualified in Austin last year, George disqualified in spa - both British drivers
Norris gets of the track in Brazil 2 times, 1 time a unsafe re-entery, and 1 time stays ahead of 2 cars of-track...or am I wrong?
Stewarding can be done from a centralized location that's specially built for the purpose. They don't need to travel.
You've been watching too much VAR
It's much better to have them at the tracks near the action
to be honest I agree with this. It's done in a multitude of other professional sports, such as the NHL and MLB, and seems to work fine with video reviews.
Doesn't make sense that F1 still doesn't have a rule where you lose your fastest time if you cause a red flag in qualifying.
doesnt seem fair if it isnt intentional
@@zinedinezidane8398 why won't it fair? intentional or not, when you cause a red flag, you screwed every people who are doing their lap.
It's like the penalty for impeding someone doing fast lap. It doesn't matter if you did it deliberately or not, when you impede someone you got a penalty.
@@zinedinezidane8398 intentional is a disqualification from the session, so no timed lap at all
but a red flag doesn't always stop other drivers from improving. Seems a little unfair if you cause a red flag with 10 mins to go and everyone else still gets 2 more laps.
@zinedinezidane8398
I agree, intent has to play a part in it.
There can't be a situation where stewards are trying to make up for the lack of stewarding by other stewards...if that makes sense. So if Max isn't getting properly penalized by the stewards of one race (COTA) it isn't up to the stewards of another race (Mexico) to over penalize him because of the stuff that happened the week prior. Same stewards for every race for the entire season.
Spot on!
Max wasn’t over penalized in Mexico. He got let off easily.
The second one should’ve been a drive through penalty instead of a 10s.
Other drivers got a drive through for far less:
@@paperplane-db8qf Still talking off your ass, huh? You know that Herbert will not suck you back?
@@paperplane-db8qf
what do you think about Lewis Russell in Suzuka 2023 or 2022 then?
because Lewis got a 0s penalty for that, yet nobody complained about it.
@@_qwe_fk_1700 so the same as Austin 2024 where Max wasn’t penalized?
Wouldn't it be a good idea if the Stewards stay the same on every race but the cars would be in an "incognito" mode. This was the Stewards cannot show bias since they dont know who they are reviewing and are just seeing the incident. It also eliminates the inconsistency problem
Sometimes the car/driver involved is also an important consideration in an incident, like who was in the faster car etc. I think the stewards could maybe also try have some fun and guess which car is which and that would kinda defeat the purpose. But it does sound like a very interesting and maybe effective idea😂
step 1: fire herbert
No. Change the f****** subject. Stop making excuses for Max's outrageous driving. If his fans were actually honest and spoke out when he crossed the line as well as just complimenting when he drives well then we wouldn't be in this situation to begin with.
@@FormulaProg Alot of Max's fans already do that. Hence why everyone agreed that in Austin, Max penalties should have been 5 and 10 sec and especially the second one was over the line. And no one is saying he should not be penalized, but when others do it and get only 5 sec, or no penalties then questions are raised. Did he get away with alot in 2021, yes he did. Should he be penalized extra harsh this year because of the past? When Lando was doing the SAME thing in Austria, divebombing with no intentions of making a corner did he get the same penalities? No he did not. Did everyone talk about how ridiculous his moves were? No they did not, not even mentioned. Go and watch that race back and tell me that wasnt over the line. We ALL want clean but hard racing and sometimes they go over, but it is only Max that people talk about.
I still believe landos penalty would have been different for the starting infringement if max didnt take such a big points swing. Its almost like they thought he had a bad enough result and didnt want to add insult to injury.
I don't think so. That was a rule that never gets used and it wasn't dangerous. A replacement was right in my opinion
There was a precedent last year in Monza when Sainz did exactly the same and got no penalty or even a fine. When they said Lando's start would be investigated after the race it was clear the possible penalty would never be seconds added to his race but rather either a grid penalty for Las Vegas or a fine.
@@kaspershaupt it was dangerous. There was a tractor with marshals on a wet track and go-around laps are not speed limited. We were lucky nothing happened
@@NeedforMine1They were moving quite slow, the visibility was good at the time and they knew where the tractor was. Not ideal but not that dangerous either.
@@soundscape26 The rain in 2014 was not that bad either. Marshals and a recovery vehicle were busy clearing a previously crashed car and Bianchi aquaplaned into the vehicle in the same corner. He died.
Lando took that risk. He was in the wet and weaving to warm up his tires. Great recipe for a crash due to lack of control or something else. We all saw how easy it was to slide off the track and into the walls.
For causing a potential Bianchi moment, he gets a slap on the wrist and an ice cream money worth of a fine.
I guess more blood needs to flow before regulations and common sense kicks in...
What makes no sense is having stroll in f1 just give him a ban for life penalty
There's a time and place for making fun of Lance.
Our standard rule in Canada is; anytime and in any place.
@aberamagold7509 you had me in the first half ngl and then I snorted from the second half
Lando deserved a much harsher penalty for his aborted start infringement. It was a safety issue first and foremost, but also impacted the race by subtracting a race lap.
The fact it didnt get adressed instantly while it was so obvious says a lot imo.
Swap the shoes to max and I bet it’s like a dq or something.
@@nollienick1121victim 😂😂😂
@@FormulaProg you mean fact?
@@nollienick1121 no verstappen and his fans, nothing is ever your fault, how is someone else to blame and if anything goes wrong it's a conspiracy against you.
Herbert not just talking on some website, no, had to be a gambling website. Totally insane if you are a contest judge or a game referee, but apparently not if you are a steward at the pineacle of motorsport
Masi slander needs to stop, teams and drivers agreed they'd do everything to make sure a race wouldn't end under a safety car anymore and he did.. bring him back
yep, the teams talked about that before the race, and they all agreed...he did his job
Yeah but that was before we knew it would negativity effect a British driver
Nah sorry we're not doing Masi revisionist history lol, even without considering Abu Dhabi he deserved to go - the handling of Spa and all the fans that got screwed out of refunds, starting sessions with recovery vehicles still on track, haggling penalties with teams over the radio, constant questionable calls (okay we still have that but still) etc.
This isn't a binary thing, just because stewarding is bad now doesn't mean Masi was good. Two things can be bad at the same time 😅
@@nathancory7278yeah. Nah. You know nothing of f1
As RPM said, F1 needs Michael Masi
4:30 - When I used to watch more passionately I always had the FIA site open to quickly access the regulations if there was a question that came up. They're actually 107 pages long and there are only about 18 pages that deal with the race itself, and half of those are about the starting procedure.
The FIA site also has other interesting information about the current race.
Full-time professionals Stewards must be number one on the list of reforms. Yeah, those Stewards can rotate each race but they should all be paid professionals who spend their weekdays studying footage etc so they can get better, faster, etc.
Maybe inspiration could be found in the sailing world where the range and complexity of situations that have to be judged is comparable to F1.
Rules are more part of the game in sailing but looking at the last Americas cup editions I think a lot could be learned in terms of communication around the stewards decisions, valorising the work they do and trying to show. Setting a call book that dictates the stewards response or serves him as a guideline to take their decisions based on previous incidents and a clearer rule book would also help.
They're always be tensions between fans, athletes and the "referees" like in every other sport but F1 has clearly a lot to learn on this topic
Any off track overtakes should be subject to a "give the place back" penalty.
If not immediately acted on then a drive through is the penalty.
None of this "I can get 10 sec ahead" bollox.
Maybe cutting the corners and getting 10s ahead will be the only viable overtake on Monaco next time around.
Surely Max pulling that will get them to change it.
kind of like how it works in MotoGP. Drop the position, otherwise long lap, then doulbe long lap, then DTP.
FIA will always find a way to get what they want. It was clear from Saudi Arabia when Lando wasn’t penalised for a false start that the FIA were already pushing for a Lando, McLaren win this year, continually allowing them to get away with everything. Mini DRS, front wing etc….
Yes and no. RB had benefits for a while, Mercedes have, Ferrari have. All teams have these situations at some point. Mclarens drs stuff was not a literal illegal part thst was in the rule book. F1 teams always bend the rules to find the absolute limit and the mini drs was one of them. RB's brake bias was one of them, Mercedes' DAS was one of them. F1 has always been about innovative technology
Is this the same FIA that gifted the championship to verstappen in 2021? I know f1 fans are fickle but come on.
9:30 Reminds me of the EURO 2024 with Germany vs Spain where there was a clear handplay by Spain and the ref didn't even went to look at the scene and months after they agreed that it was a mistake and it should've been a penalty. The game resulted in a loss for Germany and everyone agreed that that was well shit and an undeserved victory for Spain.
Leaving the pit exit with the red light on is a slam dunk black flag.
I don’t see why it should be different for leaving the dummy grid at an aborted start without a green light.
I agree. It’s wild. It basically means you can just say you were confused.
The ones who followed should get a lesser one but lando started it all.
F1 should do it like soccer, where there’s a different referee each match who’s helped by a few assistants, and their performance gets reviewed after every match to see if they did a good refereeing job. The main steward would still make the final decisions but could be helped by a var team to review all the different angles of an incident.
Solution is simple. Have the stewards in a dark room, they get a sanitized feed without driver details. They make decisions there and then based on objective data.
What is missing with F1 stewarding? Three things: consistency, consistency, consistency.
consistency is basically unachivable. Every corner is different, and so on... Everything needs to be judged independently.
@@johannessamuelsson6578 It's achievable overall. It starts by penalizing properly. The two Max Verstappen incidents were clearly different, yet they were penalized the same. If the first incident was a 10 second penalty, then the second one should have been a 15 or 20 second penalty (or 5 for the first, 10 for second, etc.). It's being consistant with the penalities that I mean. I know every incident is different.
As a casual F1 fan: can somebody explain to me why there was absolutely no reaction to Norris going wide in Brazil, cutting the track short and gaining a massive advantage (he would've lost 2-3 more positions had he re-joined straight away)? There was no reaction at all, even the commentators didn't say a word. I was so confused how that's allowed.
To be honest, not sure what exactly episode of the race you talking about, but may be he wasn't penalised because he was Pushed off the track
@МихаилЧ-ь3о It was lap 43 and it's in the highlights. Doesn't look like he was pushed off to me 🤷♀️
@janaruhl7313 yeah, I agree. He wasn't pushed off, so I don't know why he didn't get a warning, at least. It was unsafe return.
u guys hit the nail on the head, they need to broadcast their decision real time on the spot
Max’s 20 second penalty was ridiculous, yes he pushed the limit but I felt for the first incident it was a racing incident the second, oke fair enough but 20 seconds was completely biased and honestly Johnny shouldn’t be a steward
He didn’t get a 20 second penalty. He got 2 10 second penalties. Both of which were 100% warranted by the letter of F1 regulation. So to say he didn’t deserve 20 seconds is objectively incorrect. What would you have given instead?
5 seconds for both incidents would be fair imo. 10 seconds for both is insane.
He did get a 20 second penalty for getting 2 10 second penalties back to back, its called maths, the penalties stacked.
@@peppers515 the thing i find stupid is that lando only got a 5 sec penalty for the same incident a race ago.
Its crazy to me that their can be a difference in getting a penalty for the same incident.
Atleast that is something that would be an easy fix imo.
@@NotSosigRamsey are you blind or just ignorant? Max pulled something straight from an F1 online lobby. He made zero attempt to make the corner, he just wanted to shove Lando off the track for daring to pass him.
You were also referring to Max getting a 20 second penalty like it was a single incident. When he actually received 2x 10 second penalties. The outcome is the same but the ramifications are different. It’s like getting 2 yellow cards vs getting a straight red in football.
I think Tommy had it right on the podcast. There’s no way you could put both incidents in the same category. Saying they’re both only worthy of 5 seconds is absolutely WILD! Kmag was getting 10 seconds for less in Miami and no one was complaining about them not being warranted.
@@tomb9337 Well no, he got a 5 second penalty for leaving the track and gaining an advantage. Max got his penalty for forcing another driver off the road.
George got a 5 second for forcing Bottas off, so there’s an argument to be made there. This is where interpretation kinda comes in to it in that you could argue what George did to Bottas was far less egregious/less severe. Drivers also said at the start of the year they wanted harsher penalties and for 10 second to be the baseline. I got back to Kmag in Miami again as my example.
If you are demanding professionalism from the teams and drivers, then I think it is entirely reasonable to expect the same from the FIA and the stewards across the entire scope of Motor sport.
Whilst the penalty system itself isn't great, with a limited range of penalties offering too harsh/lenient a solution for many incidents, I'll play devil's advocate and say that the stewarding has actually been fairly consistent this year. For the first time, watching F1 for 20 years, I feel like I know exactly how the steward's will respond to x, y or z, which is exactly how it should be. The driver's shouldn't be playing a penalty lottery, it's not sporting.
I mostly agree, especially compared to recent seasons since 2017 or so, but I feel it’s gone a bit weird in the last few races. Admittedly that’s since COTA: perhaps the championship context affected them?
@ point deductions are allowed within the rules to punish actions with championship implications, not sure why they don’t use them
In my opinion, the stewards have been particularly inconsistent this year. Verstappen pushes Sainz off at Austin and doesn't get a penalty for it while he does the same to Norris at Mexico and gets a 10 second penalty (which clearly was the stewards compensating for Austin). Right or wrong is objective but at least, be consistent. Right now, it feels like they're just randomly pressing buttons and we are supposed to believe that they're following some imaginary rulebook.
They first checking passports 😅
@@nikhileshkillada4217 The rules are very clear on being ahead at the apex, whether it's a good rule or not. The COTA incident was absolutely not a penalty, and the Mexico incident absolutely was. If you know the rules, you knew exactly what would follow in both instances. It is imaginary if you're ignorant to it.
I am afraid this is not going to help. If the media has a bias against some drivers and portray them as dirty drivers then eventually this will have an effect on not only the fans but also the stewards. Stewards will more likely give these drivers a heavier punishment.
The Masi-ing at Brasil was ridiculous.
The only question is: was Widitch removed for doing it too much or not enough?
Different steward or not, one thing is for certain... Johnny Herbert has to go!
No, you just don't like English people.
Matt and Tommy talking about rules and penalties without Katie seems wrong.
Having Jos as the reason Herbert was commenting it's a bit more cheeky vs insane like it originally sounded. You mean one of the driver's dad's has a bias!? I hear his opponents agreed with me though
In the NRL (rugby league aust) they have Graham Annesley the head of NRL operations has a weekly brief who, in front of a monitor, weekly will go through and talk about the penalty and why it was given (on contentious decisions) he on occasions does say the ref got it wrong and generally that ref is dropped for the next game.
It's all checks and ballances that allow transparancy and how they came to their decision. They even use older footage as to why one is different to the other.
Id like to see F1 do the same thing, talk about the decisions and if they got it wrong, dump the person who made it and let someone else step in.
With the tech we have now it should be fairly easy to have a system that can render the incident with a neutral grey car in a 3d model.
Have a couple of stewards not able to see the actual race, when an incident happens they see this version. If they can't identify the cars and they don't know who is who then they can't be biased.
As weird as it sounds, I think it would actually be a good thing. That's the only way to be sure the decision will be impartial.
it feels like the f1 games to be honest. never consistent and horrible penalties or no penalty.
I think we gonna need a catalog with example video clips. What you need is consistency. That's it.
The first 10 seconds and the last 20 seconds are almost always the best of P1 podcast, but this one had a bunch of important moments. Love!
I want to see the shared Google doc of all these unhinged video intro ideas.
british appropriation of F1 is destroying the sports
Another excellent video by Matt and Tommy!
If you watch SailGP or the America’s cup you can see the race course, boundaries, start line, previous courses, distance between competitors, and the speed of everyone even though the entire thing is on water, so it’s all virtual AND live. It’s amazing. You can enforce distance and time penalties with virtual measurements shown live to the referee and the audience to ensure compliance. The technology is available.
How many stewards work out the penalties in F1?
In v8 Supercars there is a couple of stewards that determine a a penalty which the given the the DSO (Same person for every race) which makes the final decision. Then the penalty is announced by the race director.
The main thing that needs to change IMO is bringing back drive-through penalties when an advantage has been gained. Like Mexico, Max got ahead by breaking the rules, so instead giving him 20 seconds, not only ruining his race but allowing him to stay in front and holding Lando back is just ridiculous. You're also punishing the driver that was the victim in that scenario. And yes, same goes for Landos overtake in Austin... Pass the pitlane, do not collect fresh tyres, do not collect $200... You didn't get the place on merit, so you need to give up track position, and a drive through is a lot more sensible to do so than 10 seconds to use up at your earliest convenience.
I've said for years about all sport, you want good referees. Give them grades and trophies. Referee of the year. For individuals and working teams. They get more champions league more world cup games. Triple crown events etc... Best Steward in the world trophy. More correct calls than anyone else. Deduction of points when they get it wrong. They'd fight harder to get it right.
04:00 YES! International cricket now broadcasts the third umpire actually talking out loud his process of decision making while showing us the camera angles he is seeing! I think showing us the basic camera angles that the stewards have used to make the decision would make this a lot easier to digest seemingly random penalties.
It's insane how Verstappen got a penalty for turn 4 in Mexico when he lost the position to Norris. Perez a few laps later does the same to Lawson and to Stroll and doesn't even get a warning on either of them. I'm not saying Perez should get a penalty, because no driver who stays all 4 wheels on track and loses a position by staying on track ever gets a penalty, except for Verstappen of course.
Double standards every single time. Whether it is touching another car in Parce Fermé, whether it is swearing, whether it is track limits or pushing people off track during the race.
I think a big distinction in the rules should be if it is dangerous there is a higher penalty.
What needs to happen is the return of the drive through and the stop/go penalties, a 10 second penaltiy at some point in the race is never going to stop a determined cheat but losing say 40 seconds to a stop/go within 3 laps might well stop the cheat.
In Rugby, Cricket and Football there are world councils for officials. Refs, Umps etc, build experience up over YEARS, do seminars and training…just like the players/athletes …and is highly professional.
Considering the money involved in motor-racing , how can the FIA possibly not have professional officials?! Its absolutely pathetic. Just because you were a driver 30years ago does not mean you understand or know any rules.
If you have PROFESSIONAL, trained and knowledgeable stewards, nationality does not matter.
Stewards and race director roles aside, I think something that needs to come back is the drive through penalty, and the stipulation you have to serve the penalty inside three laps from when the penalty was given. This will stop the stupid "if i pass and get a penalty, ill outrun the penalty and it wont have an effect" nonsense. And it is a big penalty as well so stops people doing stupid things to try and play the rules because the risk is not worth the potential punishment. Remove the +5 or +10 seconds penalties. Or if you do have them, enforce the pitstop within 3 laps again.
The after the race investigations are the worst….we’ve gone hours before finding out the final standings before only to find out the order is nothing like what we watched.
That really has got to stop
The irony of talking about Premier League football refs when the David Cootes stuff has just come out 😂
I think to solve the “investigate after the race” issue, there should be a time limit of like 15 minutes from when an incident happened to a penalty being given out. If you can’t make a decision after that amount of time, it wasn’t worthy of a penalty. And also if there’s a potential penalty stemming from the last few laps that affects the podium finishers, DO NOT HAVE THE CELEBRATION until a decision is made; with a 15 minute time limit from the end of the race the podium celebration should only be delayed a maximum of like 5 minutes.
The punishments are either too harsh for one incident or not enough for another. There's no consistency and that's the problem.
3:00 Is probably the right way to have it for some stewards. It would also help to have drivers to have that perspective. The best thing is to also have an open system to show the whole decision, whether it's accurate, and whether former drivers would agree with the decision.
Also perhaps bring in Russell of the GPDA, (and perhaps Vettel) to hash out standards for the rules. Then make it clear in the drivers meetings.
5s penalties need to be abolished. They're generally worthless if it's added to your race time. I'd propose a "level 1" penalty is 5s if served during a pit stop, but 10s if added to your race time. Or something to that effect. But I still think 5s is nothing if you take your competitor out of the race. If you're at fault, and you cause a race ending accident, you shouldn't be classified at the end of the race
Also imagine watching any other sport and the penalty came after the game. You win the grand final but 5 mins before there was an illigal hit on a player which meant that the score wouldnt be recorded which means the wrong team won? We have enough tech to make decisions straight away. Every car has cameras and telemetry. Christ let AI just sort it out if they wont.
FIA rant without Katy doesn't feel right...
All because Herbert is full of nonsense..
No verstappen fans are. Literally thinks he's above the sport.
And you don't see the BS penalties?
@@LMevana what? Like completely driving off the track in Mexico just so Lando didn't make the corner? Any other driver would have been black flagged for that. Stop playing the victim.
@FormulaProg How am i the victim here?
The Mexico 2nd one was deserved that's fine, US GP russel penalty was nonsense which Toto happened to mention after
Alonso in Spain another nonsense decision
Max Austria more BS
Start violation and no penalty also more BS
Not everything is about Verstappen
@@LMevana I don't have time to get into all of those most of it is open to debate. The whole reason this is happening is because fans complain when the stewards don't get involved, everyone wants them to race then we let them race You get a few controversial incidents and everyone starts complaining and asking for penalties all the time. Harsher and harsher and then we go back to square one. It's stupid. You're right, it's not always about verstappen but that's where this controversy came from mostly
3:50 Honestly, you can say that about every sport that FIA sanctions. Since 2021, the FIA has realized that they don't have enough stewards nor race directors, but I have yet to hear any solutions to those issues and well... Ben... seems concerned with other things
5:36.... You would think that they need more time, but I raised you the WEC/WSC where this can STILL happen (That and failing post-race technical inspection). In 6hr to 24hr races.
It's rarer because of the time but yeah that is some BS.
you need consistency somewhere. either a detailed rule book that anyone can interpret and apply OR a more flexible rule book but with the same experienced personnel in place to make well educated / experienced and good decisions.
In the age of video refs in most sports they are literally racing supercomputers but still have to rely on passing slips of paper to the broadcasters with just a code number.
Tommy's point about referee training is interesting - in the NFL, our referees actually do so part-time. Some of them are lawyers, business owners, etc.
I'm with Tommy here, Having different stewards is basically like having different referees in football, they rotate as not to have the same biases carried from one race to the other throughout the entirety of the season. How hard can it be to train a group of 10/15 people to perform their duties according to F1's rulebook? 100% consistency will always be impossible, they're human and sometimes they won't even agree with each other.
Whet it comes to Lando in Brazil it was obvious the penalty would never be seconds, that's why they left it for after the race... would never have an impact on the final standings.
I know this will sound ridiculous but what about 20 stewards? 1 steward per car.
They can fully focus on 1 car while racing and communicate with the other steward if the driver they are in charge with gets involved with the other driver. They can also rotate the stewards among the driver so there isn't bias. English is not my best language.
i Think we should have 6 stewards the whole Season, but only 4 of them per Race. 1 of the 4 is always a represent of the Country, so you'd only had to rotate the other 3 slots throughout the Season. That should somehow be managable even if i think that the FIA could even mess this up like they always do.
The only person qualified for being a steward is Inspector Seb
They need a team of professional stewards accompanied by an ex-F1 driver as an advisor (as now - the driver does NOT currently have any powers. They can only tell the stewards why a thing is likely to be accidental or deliberate, etc), and a local advisor, someone who knows the track inside out and can explain why a car is likely to react in a particular way at that particular point. Again, _advisor,_ with no decision making powers.
Edit: I meant to say that I think the professional stewards should come from a pool of 5 minimum, and rotate them. No ex-F1 racers to be among them!
They should get a bank of previous incidents from the last 10 years and decide what is the correct penalty for that incident.
Then when something happens they just find a parallel from the bank of precedent.
There will always be exceptions and new events but for the majority it will be better and fair.
What really needs to happen is transparency. The F1 media should interview the stewards in a public format and allow the stewards and/or the directors to explain their decisions in more detail.
Also display penalties on the graphic!
in supermotocross the race director comes on the broadcast and explains situations they make so we can better understand the decision. They should do that in f1 too
Haven't seen supermoto, but it probably makes sense in the context of the broadcast. I don't know if it would for F1 though.
I like the idea of a bigger team of stewards rotating each round but having a head steward and maybe a deputy head steward(?) who are there to ensure consistency across the season. Looking at most of the penalties awarded I think there are some things (i.e. track limits) that are pretty cut and dry most of the time so should be decided quickly. The most complicated penalties like Lando v. Max, for example, could then be decided a little slower but you'd know the state of play sooner still and the penalty would be consistent with other rounds.
F1 penalties seem to fall into only two categories - nothing burgers or race ending.
They recently upgraded most +5 sec penalties to +10 sec, but there's then a huge gap until you get to the drive-through or stop and go penalties.
Side note: Why can't the main feed show outstanding time penalties like we get in iRacing or other games?
With all the data and tracking they have on the cars. I wonder how hard it would be to create a virtual version of incidents without any idea of who any of the drivers are. Removing bias.
12:42 as an Argentinean, I must say that you ignited a fire with that sentence, watch the whole country rooting for it lol (People here are being are super intense about Franco, I swear they'd get up and light a candle for him everyday if needed lmao)
I still think, most of this can be evaded by implementing more natural penalties like a wall, gravel, grass or anything else. Unless absolutely necessary no stewards has to be involved and it would be the same for any driver
To reduce the bias we can use some “simple” data analysis to review all the decisions made looking at the type of incident, driver, decision made by each Stewart. That would create a heap of consistency by identifying the outliers and allow us to address Stewart giving preference to a driver/team. The Stewarts could meet a couple of times a year to review and hold each other accountable. There could be a “penalty” system for the stewards to “encourage” them to be impartial.
I think first of all they need to be equal
There are hundreds of cases when 2 drivers did exactly the same thing, but the penalty was totally different or in 1 case the penalty was harsh, in other small and in another one there was no penalty at all
Have an established panel where they are trained using previous Grands Prix scenarios in a live replay where their decisions are scrutinized by a Safety expert, an experienced track marshall, an actual racing driver and F1 fans of every team(for a biased perspective they can use as a benchmark)
I forgot to add a Performance engineer to interpret telemetry for everyone.
I just can't wrap my mind around the FIA with their hundreds of screens not being able to check the onboards of each of the drivers that took off with Lando during the aborted start whilst I could with just my one screen.
Part of the issue with people not knowing why stewards made decisions, it has to be said, is the commentators not knowing the rules. Yes some of these rules are more niche, but when your full time job is commentating on F1 and basically giving the audience context for what’s going on, it is absolutely necessary that the commentators know the rules, so even if the stewards don’t do what you pitched and send into the main broadcast their reasonings, the commentators can know the rule well enough to either explain the ruling, or explain why they think it’s wrong. Right now it seems they’re as confused as we are during races.
Herbert is a very good example of what a Steward should NOT be.
Works with a Sports betting site (wtf?).
Gives childish reasons to support his decisions.
Is inconsistent with the penalties given.
Yaps to the media way too much.
That is why we need professional, payed stewards, not some has been with a gripe.
Matt struggling to remember the term "revolving door"
Love the content!
The problem is that even when there is the opportunity to use common sense, they don't. Sainz getting heavily penalised for the stewards error at Las Vegas last year was ridiculous.
First, it wasn't the stewards' error. It was a problem with the track. Second, there was no mechanism to allow the stewards to reverse the penalty. Even if they could, it would require the agreement of the other teams, and Wolff already indicated he would not agree.
There must be a pool of stewards, and they must be chosen by kind of lottery to know which race they go to.