There's a lot going on in 4E especially when you're new to running it, and especially when one person has to control the monsters and characters! Some notes below for things "we" should keep in mind for future adventures, or if other folks are interested in playing along or running their own game. - Lyra has +5 AC against attacks of opportunity. During the live stream I was only seeing the Nimble Reaction as a Halfling, but it's another +3 thanks to the Artful Dodger Rogue Tactics feature. Lyra should not just be willing but actively eager to provoke AOOs in order to position for Sneak Attack. This would also eat up those reactions to allow Haldor and Keldrek to move around a little more freely. - Critical hits deal maximum damage (PHB278) from all sources except a magic weapon / implement bonus that triggers on a crit. If Lyra gets a Sneak Attack critical hit, those d8's ought to be treated as 8, not rolled. - If the characters are not moving on their turn, we should still consider if it is to our benefit to Shift one space to allow for better positioning of our other characters. - It felt like we spent a lot of our mental energy on Lyra, the wolf flanking items, and dagger throwing range. Elara did a great job with the slow effects on the goblin and Burning Hands at the end was very strong. But I think it left Haldor and Keldrek feeling somewhat underused. Perhaps this is due to Haldor missing twice? Or him taking so much damage right at the start? Or just Lyra getting those big sneak attack numbers? - We should try to demonstrate the marking feature with Haldor's Combat Challenge (-2 to attacks against anyone except Haldor, and shifting or attacking an ally provokes an AOO) and Keldrek's Divine Challenge (-2 to attacks against anyone except Keldrek, and if they do they automatically take 6 damage). I think on the second encounter now that we've got Elara and Lyra understood, and have a better sense of the general flow, this could be a good route to go. - For any actual group playing, it would probably be to their benefit to swap either Haldor or Keldrek with the Cleric included in the adventure. I find that 4E works best when you have have a leader in the party, as it allows the defenders get to use their marks and taunts as intended. (It may be too many triggers and status effects to track since you're the one running everything in these sample games, but just so other folks know.)
A small correction on the Lyra part: Opportunity actions can be done once per turn on *each* creature's turn. If each party member walks past an enemy, that enemy can Opportunity Attack each of them once. But if any one party member ran the entire eight squares around the enemy (ending up back where they started), that enemy could only attack them once, and the rest of the movement is risk-free (if they attacked at the start of the move rather than near the end at least). The bit about her moving into position for sneak attacks is good though.
@@Tuss36 Very interesting! I never noticed that before. Indeed in the opportunity attack section on page 290 is says "... but you can take any number during a round." In the "triggered action types" section on page 268 it says "once per Combatant's Turn" and it states that it interrupts. The next section on "immediate actions" says you can only use an immediate action once per round, and that immediate actions interrupt. It seems likely that I followed the fact that opportunity attacks do interrupt, and then backed up one step (incorrectly!) from interrupt to immediate to say that you only get one of those each round.
Also, the tactics for the wolves said that they move to one of the adventures at the back of the party. But you had them attack the fighter in the front instead.
About both wolves moving, flanking and gaining combat advantage at the same time, this is what the Dungeon Master's Guide on page 38 has to say about it: "Individual monsters can delay and ready actions just like other monsters, so it’s possible you’ll end up with the two orc raiders acting at different times by the time the encounter is over. Monsters can also ready within their turn without shifting their place in the initiative order. For example, the orc raiders can both move into a flanking position and then both attack with combat advantage. Technically, the first one to move would have to ready its attack until the other one moved into position, but it all works out the same in the end." It's a weak argument, though, IMO. Delay is not used in this maneuver, and with Ready an Action, it is implied an enemy triggers the action, not an ally. But there it is in the DM's Guide saying it can be done.
Thank you. We definitely had a lot of discussion about that during the live stream. It sounds like that strategy is possible per the rules. Then it is just the question of whether the wolves would be intelligent enough to actually strategize like that. Thanks.
In the chat we knew there was a way to do it, it was merely a question of "are the wolves smart enough to arrange it that way?" Personally: wolves are pack animals, and the fact the wolf has that feature in their stat block indicates they know how it works. I think if we were running this in a normal game where the DM was just controlling the monsters (and not new to running the system) they definitely would have stacked the triggers to get the prone effect and combat advantage on both attacks.
After playing dnd4 for some times, i think it is a game where it is important for the GM to know well how the basic strategic work in dnd4, to explain it to the player (the whole mark and opportunity attack strategy, the flanking to enable rogue damage, etc...), and to introduce the different mechanics bit by bit. I have a starter adventure which start with a bunch of zombies (about 3 minion per player; +2 or 3 normal zombies, from first PHB), which allow the player to not concentrate on strategy, but more on learning how the game is played (attack roll, using power, movement). At this states, i don't bother with opportunity attack and such. I am very kind to player, and don't hesitate to accomodate the rule to not constraint too much the player (do not care of long range, and sometime allowing a player to reroll after a string of bad roll) then the next encounter contains creature which are a little more dangerous, like ghoul, needing the tank to mark the dangerous creature. At this time, I don't hesitate to tell player that he has this or that special ability (tank mark, bonus damage of the rogue, channel divinity, and such), and i don't hesitate to let the monster "make mistake" like attacking a full life player instead of a low life one, provoke OA, etc... I also place some roleplay between the encounter, to let the player improvise and try their different skill. Overall, I think d&d4 can be hard to newcomer who do not want to learn how it work. It need some investement, at least on a character level, to know how to use properly its ability. still, great to see someone playing D&D4 ^^ I follow your content with great interest ^^ (currently on a 4e campaign, and its real fun and interesting^^)
we play 4e in fantasy grounds, it really helps with the mechanics. it auto calculates if you hit or miss (all defenses), rolls saves for the monsters/npcs automatically and with an addon it also autoapplys flanking bonus (combat advantage)
I am at 13:38, when the second wolf moved in position: based on the path shown, should he have suffered an attack of opportunity before reaching the warrior?
I'm surprised you didn't play with a Leader character, but this was a nice simple encounter. The only time I was able to play 4E was a one-shot (I played a wizard), and I enjoyed it.
The Core set was sitting on the shelf forever , except the DM Guide, but i never read the rules everything seemed so overcomplicated (i am a Moldvay fan)....started to reading the PHB1 when i was ill and now i am hooked. Bought PHB2 and Primal Powers to spice it up. Thx for the nice videos. Especially the combat videos helped me understand the game flow. I loved seeing the heroes messing up there rolls. Usually i do that.
it most certainly is, PHB1 PG 283. 4e is the version that removed diagonal movement costing 1.5x normal because of them using a square system instead of feet.
@@oldegreybeard Hmmm. I can’t find anywhere it says that! All I can find is some old discussion saying that if something (such as a Power or the High Crit property) adds dice of damage on a crit, those are rolled and not maxed, but striker abilities still are. I vaguely remember this being a controversy at the time. It’s been so long!
Also in the PHB it seems to say you max out all damage dice *except* for damage that gets added as the result of the crit (from weapon properties or magical weapon properties). I need to look more into this!
You are correct. The notes in the players handbook, page 278, indicate that you would not take the max on extra dice for magic weapons and implements. It does not say anything about class features like sneak attack. So I think the sneak attack should be maxed also. Thanks.
@@oldegreybeard you bet! I’m no stickler for rules as written, but I’m very interested in trying to interpret what they do say. Keep up the rad content, I’m enjoying finally seeing some great 4E content!
Sneak Attack can only be done once per round. So no Sneak Attack for Lyra on that Action Point attack that critted against that wolf.
There's a lot going on in 4E especially when you're new to running it, and especially when one person has to control the monsters and characters! Some notes below for things "we" should keep in mind for future adventures, or if other folks are interested in playing along or running their own game.
- Lyra has +5 AC against attacks of opportunity. During the live stream I was only seeing the Nimble Reaction as a Halfling, but it's another +3 thanks to the Artful Dodger Rogue Tactics feature. Lyra should not just be willing but actively eager to provoke AOOs in order to position for Sneak Attack. This would also eat up those reactions to allow Haldor and Keldrek to move around a little more freely.
- Critical hits deal maximum damage (PHB278) from all sources except a magic weapon / implement bonus that triggers on a crit. If Lyra gets a Sneak Attack critical hit, those d8's ought to be treated as 8, not rolled.
- If the characters are not moving on their turn, we should still consider if it is to our benefit to Shift one space to allow for better positioning of our other characters.
- It felt like we spent a lot of our mental energy on Lyra, the wolf flanking items, and dagger throwing range. Elara did a great job with the slow effects on the goblin and Burning Hands at the end was very strong. But I think it left Haldor and Keldrek feeling somewhat underused. Perhaps this is due to Haldor missing twice? Or him taking so much damage right at the start? Or just Lyra getting those big sneak attack numbers?
- We should try to demonstrate the marking feature with Haldor's Combat Challenge (-2 to attacks against anyone except Haldor, and shifting or attacking an ally provokes an AOO) and Keldrek's Divine Challenge (-2 to attacks against anyone except Keldrek, and if they do they automatically take 6 damage). I think on the second encounter now that we've got Elara and Lyra understood, and have a better sense of the general flow, this could be a good route to go.
- For any actual group playing, it would probably be to their benefit to swap either Haldor or Keldrek with the Cleric included in the adventure. I find that 4E works best when you have have a leader in the party, as it allows the defenders get to use their marks and taunts as intended. (It may be too many triggers and status effects to track since you're the one running everything in these sample games, but just so other folks know.)
A small correction on the Lyra part: Opportunity actions can be done once per turn on *each* creature's turn. If each party member walks past an enemy, that enemy can Opportunity Attack each of them once. But if any one party member ran the entire eight squares around the enemy (ending up back where they started), that enemy could only attack them once, and the rest of the movement is risk-free (if they attacked at the start of the move rather than near the end at least).
The bit about her moving into position for sneak attacks is good though.
@@Tuss36 Very interesting! I never noticed that before. Indeed in the opportunity attack section on page 290 is says "... but you can take any number during a round."
In the "triggered action types" section on page 268 it says "once per Combatant's Turn" and it states that it interrupts. The next section on "immediate actions" says you can only use an immediate action once per round, and that immediate actions interrupt.
It seems likely that I followed the fact that opportunity attacks do interrupt, and then backed up one step (incorrectly!) from interrupt to immediate to say that you only get one of those each round.
Its very interesting seeing the resurgence of interest in 4e, especially within the context of it being the sort of progenitor to PF2E, in a way.
Also, the tactics for the wolves said that they move to one of the adventures at the back of the party. But you had them attack the fighter in the front instead.
Ahhh, 4e. Used to run it before 5th and soon starting a campaign. Love the hype around 4e
About both wolves moving, flanking and gaining combat advantage at the same time, this is what the Dungeon Master's Guide on page 38 has to say about it: "Individual monsters can delay and ready actions just like other monsters, so it’s possible you’ll end up with the two orc raiders acting at different times by the time the encounter is over. Monsters can also ready within their turn without shifting their place in the initiative order. For example, the orc raiders can both move into a flanking position and then both attack with combat advantage. Technically, the first one to move would have to ready its attack until the other one moved into position, but it all works out the same in the end." It's a weak argument, though, IMO. Delay is not used in this maneuver, and with Ready an Action, it is implied an enemy triggers the action, not an ally. But there it is in the DM's Guide saying it can be done.
Thank you. We definitely had a lot of discussion about that during the live stream. It sounds like that strategy is possible per the rules. Then it is just the question of whether the wolves would be intelligent enough to actually strategize like that.
Thanks.
In the chat we knew there was a way to do it, it was merely a question of "are the wolves smart enough to arrange it that way?" Personally: wolves are pack animals, and the fact the wolf has that feature in their stat block indicates they know how it works. I think if we were running this in a normal game where the DM was just controlling the monsters (and not new to running the system) they definitely would have stacked the triggers to get the prone effect and combat advantage on both attacks.
After playing dnd4 for some times, i think it is a game where it is important for the GM to know well how the basic strategic work in dnd4, to explain it to the player (the whole mark and opportunity attack strategy, the flanking to enable rogue damage, etc...), and to introduce the different mechanics bit by bit.
I have a starter adventure which start with a bunch of zombies (about 3 minion per player; +2 or 3 normal zombies, from first PHB), which allow the player to not concentrate on strategy, but more on learning how the game is played (attack roll, using power, movement). At this states, i don't bother with opportunity attack and such. I am very kind to player, and don't hesitate to accomodate the rule to not constraint too much the player (do not care of long range, and sometime allowing a player to reroll after a string of bad roll)
then the next encounter contains creature which are a little more dangerous, like ghoul, needing the tank to mark the dangerous creature. At this time, I don't hesitate to tell player that he has this or that special ability (tank mark, bonus damage of the rogue, channel divinity, and such), and i don't hesitate to let the monster "make mistake" like attacking a full life player instead of a low life one, provoke OA, etc...
I also place some roleplay between the encounter, to let the player improvise and try their different skill.
Overall, I think d&d4 can be hard to newcomer who do not want to learn how it work. It need some investement, at least on a character level, to know how to use properly its ability.
still, great to see someone playing D&D4 ^^ I follow your content with great interest ^^ (currently on a 4e campaign, and its real fun and interesting^^)
we play 4e in fantasy grounds, it really helps with the mechanics. it auto calculates if you hit or miss (all defenses), rolls saves for the monsters/npcs automatically and with an addon it also autoapplys flanking bonus (combat advantage)
do you have the data for 4e in fantasy grounds, as its not on it normally right?
I am at 13:38, when the second wolf moved in position: based on the path shown, should he have suffered an attack of opportunity before reaching the warrior?
@@nathancorso4067 yes. However, it had the movement to arc around and ultimately get into that same position without triggering the OA
I'm surprised you didn't play with a Leader character, but this was a nice simple encounter. The only time I was able to play 4E was a one-shot (I played a wizard), and I enjoyed it.
The Core set was sitting on the shelf forever , except the DM Guide, but i never read the rules everything seemed so overcomplicated (i am a Moldvay fan)....started to reading the PHB1 when i was ill and now i am hooked. Bought PHB2 and Primal Powers to spice it up. Thx for the nice videos. Especially the combat videos helped me understand the game flow. I loved seeing the heroes messing up there rolls. Usually i do that.
Awesome content!! Question, does anyone know where I can find the old 4E character builder??
4e discord got in in the resources page
Are there plans to make future 4e videos again?
This video is great. Thanks a lot.
You could use other tools that have images for icons and other visuals.
nice video.
I used to hate 4th, but I really like the game now. I just wish I could find players. or a GM. LOL.
13:10 almost certain this isnt the case lol
it most certainly is, PHB1 PG 283. 4e is the version that removed diagonal movement costing 1.5x normal because of them using a square system instead of feet.
@@ryumewukowu weird, bc 4e is my first version so idk where else id of heard that?
Is the Sneak Attack damage not maxed on a crit? It's damage from the attack, no?
No. The crit only maxes the weapon damage dice. It does not max out damage from other sources. Damage from those sources still has to be rolled.
@@oldegreybeard Hmmm. I can’t find anywhere it says that! All I can find is some old discussion saying that if something (such as a Power or the High Crit property) adds dice of damage on a crit, those are rolled and not maxed, but striker abilities still are. I vaguely remember this being a controversy at the time. It’s been so long!
Also in the PHB it seems to say you max out all damage dice *except* for damage that gets added as the result of the crit (from weapon properties or magical weapon properties). I need to look more into this!
You are correct. The notes in the players handbook, page 278, indicate that you would not take the max on extra dice for magic weapons and implements. It does not say anything about class features like sneak attack.
So I think the sneak attack should be maxed also.
Thanks.
@@oldegreybeard you bet! I’m no stickler for rules as written, but I’m very interested in trying to interpret what they do say. Keep up the rad content, I’m enjoying finally seeing some great 4E content!