The Fourth World By Jack Kirby
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- Опубликовано: 23 фев 2020
- In 1970, the successful team of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby went their separate ways. Kirby left Marvel Comics and, for the next six years, worked exclusively for DC. His first project was a series of interrelated titles that would tell one complete saga. This was the foundation for what is known as the Fourth World.
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The awful treatment of Kirby, both by DC and Marvel, is a shameful black stain on the history of the comics industry. The man was an absolute visionary and pushed the medium ahead decades.
Yes I'm not a fan of the pyramid business pushing all profits to the top,,, some have done all joint ownership and are successful against the pyramid competition. Stan also managed the artists down.
I wonder how Jack Kirby would have done at image comics or self publishing through the internet, we can only dream.
@@fcdraw Mr Kirby had done some series at Pacific Comics in the 1980s. Could someone find out more those characters ?
@@geraldstephens6612 thanks, I'll check it out.
With Marvel movies being so popular, it kills me most of the audience would know Lee but have no clue who the King is.
When you get irritated with your boss so you create the gospel for the rival company. Kirby is brilliant.
And then that rival company treats you even worse, and cancels half your books before they reach 10 issues.
Kirby was in contact with Carmine Infantino 2 years before he actually did it and he was making plans to move to D.C. to get creative freedom.
Infantio kill the NewGods
@@andreasesser4641It didn't sell well. Stop demonizing everything.
I think that "Superman: The Animated Series" was a sort of spiritual successor to King Kirby's work at DC. The way that the creators on that show wove the fourth world into Superman's story and world was just about perfect.
Even Dan Turpin was drawn to resemble Kirby.
I’ve always loved how Jack Kirby drew technology. Such as weapons and other devices. They look so bizarre, miraculous and complex, which is what I like about them. These are machines that don’t look like they were invented by man. But by some inter dimensional God or and advanced alien race. Kirby’s complex and maze-like structures on these machines are just so awesome looking to me.
You can thank a book called Chariots of the Gods for this kind of idea being so huge back then. Truly the modern renaissance
The tech looks like it actually works too!
I remember reading an article where it was said that Jack Kirby loved reading Scientific American, and drew inspiration from photos of ships, power plants, computers, and other technological architecture, that he used them as models for his elaborate backgrounds of superhero and supervillain headquarters and sci-fi epics.
Personally I love the Jack Kirby dialog it reads like sci-fi Shakespeare! It fits the art so well.
Dude you need to put your work out more I can see you being way more popular than anyone else on RUclips and Rob and Benny have fucking houses, you could be making bank my man. You put way more quality into the voices if people hear what you put out they wouldn't be able to hear benny and his 3 voices ever again without bleeding ears.
I completely agree.
Even Thor used to talk like Shakespeare.
I quite like Kirby's bombastic writing, and I think his choice of evocative words and phrases is more delibarate than accidental. In this period in particular it often reads an ancient mythological text, but with a modern or even faux-futuristic vocabulary. Lines like those of the prologue to New Gods #1 will probably be burnt into the back of my mind for the rest of my life.
If nothing else I'd take Kirby at his worst over Stan's writing any day of the week.
It will always be a tragedy that Jack Kirby never got to complete his vision for the Fourth World in its initial comic run.
I think it would've been a greater success because there's so many more options today that Kirby could've taken advantage of.
In my opinion, the Fourth World is definitely Jack Kirby's magnum opus.
I agree. Too bad he couldn't end it how he wanted to.
I love the Fourth World.
It just blows my mind, how little Kirby got in exchange for how much he gave to DC and Marvel.
I mean the sheer lack of faith, they had in him to carry a series is astounding.
Kirbys work is magnificent. The way he depicts alien architecture, machinery and outer space is 2nd to none. If only he had done some production design for Star Wars.
True. But , he was a pretty poor writer. I think he did need a partner, like Lee or Simons to give him direction.
Kirby was a HUGE fan of pulp sci-fi and Scientific American! He drew inspiration from the art of the pulps and architecture of Scientific American to produce those wonders of complex backgrounds and machinery.
To be honest, I like the hunger dogs, it fun, entertaining, and I think it has a meaningful ending for the new gods finding a new home, while darkseid is left alone on his broken planet.
Welcome back my favorite man god. For a second, I’ve fought you left.
One of my favorite things among lots of great things about Thor: Ragnarock is the homage paid to Kirby in the use of his classic architecture and background patterns, complete with glaring comic book colors, set into live action scenes. That was Waititi showing respect for the master, as Kevin Feige called it, a love letter to Jack Kirby.
When I was a kid in Nigeria in the 90s there was no access to comic books so I made due by watching the 90s Fantastic Four cartoon and seeing Black Panther, then watching Superman animated and Justice league animated/unlimited. It really introduced me to Jack Kirby and his phenomenal creations. He is definitely the king of western comics and that will never change.
I was first introduced to Jack Kirby's Fourth world, as a kid in Nigeria in the 2000s, via Bruce Timm's animated Superman and Justice League cartoons and I absolutely loved the lore, the depth and amazing characters and world building. The Judeo-Christian undertones were something I came to understand and appreciate as I got older. Jack Kirby is the greatest comic creator of all time🤩👍
Kirby was Awesome, and underappreciated. His incredible output and fantastic concepts overwhelmed the marketplace at the time. I collected his work, wherever it appeared, but the companies he worked for constantly messed with him in an effort, I think, to control him. It's sad that he never got the opportunity to do the books his own way. I bought Hunger Dogs in a book store, not a comics shop. It was distributed as a Deluxe trade paperback, and not a comic book. I seem to recall that the SCOTT FREE character was inspired by Jim Steranko, who was also an escape artist, as well as a publisher and comic book artist himself. The KAMANDI and DEMON books are some of my most treasured collector items. The KIRBY COLLECTOR is a magazine currently published by TWOMORROWS and features content that reviews Kirby's work. Many rough and uninked pages are reproduced to break down the creative process that Kirby used. Thanks for your review !
I wonder how different marvel would be with Thor's cast of characters gone and Darkseid running around the marvel universe (There's a multiverse out there were Iron Man snaps his finger and Darkseid simply says NOO!!! )
I believe this was the better story and Exactly where the 4th world needed to be.You can always bring characters back However The mighty T hor and azgard is hard to brush away.
But still. Imagine that to this day Darkseid exists in Marvel. How different would the comic industry be? If someone makes what if videos about comics. Here's a prompt: What If Jack Kirby made the Fourth World at Marvel Comics?
I purchased the massive Fourth World Omnibus last year which collected all the issues from Jimmy Olsen to Mister Miracle in chronological order. Once of the best buys I've ever made. Highly recommended if you can't afford to collect all the original issues.
SO GLAD to see you back, I hope it's a continued sign of things to come.
I love everything about Kirby's work at DC, even the so-called throwaways like Justice Inc and Black Magic.
Kamandi, OMAC, The Demon, all classics. The Fourth World of course is his Abbey Road. I treasure all of them.
Keep em coming, man..! (That being said, again I noticed the absence of your amazing 'until next time' at the end...)
My understanding for why Jack Kirby ended up working on Jimmy Olsen is because when he got to DC he knew he was a big deal but he didn't want to take a job away from somebody so he just told them to put him on whatever books that nobody else was working on.
Kirby really is The King. His presence on culture today across the world is beyond doubt.
This channel is criminally underrated
New Gods series from 1989 is worth reading.
Kirby's strength seems to be hie was an "idea machine", as you say. In other words, if DC had let Kirby become an editor rather than forcing him to write and draw the Forth World, it could have been a long ongoing series with great ideas handed to better writers.
I'm sure a editor employee had other ideas on that to keep a job
Check out a magazine called The Jack Kirby Reader ; the interviews with Mr Kirby himself & others who worked with him are printed there.
In an interview, Mr Kirby said he would do the first few issues of New Gods, Mister Miracle, & Forever People to set up the series; Orion was to have his own title. He had certain writers & artists to take over the books. Would have been a great imprint had DC allowed him to do this.
@@dianathompson7597 Yes someone in DC management did.
Roy Thomas said much the same, and that Jack needed reigning in, which is where Stan came in. Neal Adams said that there was something missing from Jacks DC stuff, and said maybe it was Stan.
Excellent work as always!
My favorite Kirby work. Thanks for this
Glad to see you back with a new video!
Fantastic as always!
great video, epic overview of Kirby's Forth World!
Welcome back. Made my day seeing this in my feed. Excellent + exceptional as always.
You always have me waiting for new vids, love your content 👍
$1 back then was equivalent to more than $30 now.
Buying 5 comics would be a ground-able offense.
You could use that dollar to go to the movies, buy lunch, and still have enough left over for a comic book.
this video is awesome, thanks for doing this!
Congrats! Excelent work!
You hit the nail on the head. Kirby was an amazing idea man and VISUAL storyteller. His writing, especially his dialogue, is virtually unreadable. He and Stan Lee are like Lennon and McCartney. They needed each other to truly shine.
Christopher Wilson Despite Kirby's shortcomings and Stan Lee's undeniable contributions to comics, 2 declare lee and Kirby as equal talents on a Lennon and McCarthy level is lazy and inaccurate . Lee was never a truly talented writer on any level, he was serviceable for comics of the time and a brilliant marketer, nobody of discerning taste looks to lee for writing tips. Kirby is a peerless talent that even young artist of today are gaining inspiration from, he is arguably the only true capital A artist the medium has ever produced. The proof is, we're still talking about his"flawed" fourth world and his so-called lesser works, it's the great unfinished symphony of comics! That's the the mark of a true artistic talent. No one talks about Lee beyond his initial silver age splash with Kirby and Ditko, because he wasn't good at anything but being a mascot.
@@lefthandedsophiethepop-wit503 Point.🖖
@@lefthandedsophiethepop-wit503 I would disagree with you in saying that Lee was never a truly talented writer. that's rather absurd to say does show maybe, how little you know of how much he wrote/created. lee was prolific constantly writing, morning, afternoon, evening not for a few comics but for at least 10-15 separate comics all at the same time. just like Kirby was drawing for 8 or so comics. to down play his talent is unfair, inaccurate and shows how very uninformed you are. Lee took himself away from writing in '72 like any true artist would, when it's time to step down because you did all you could. so "no one talks about him beyond his silver age"? you know how ridiculous that sounds? 1972 wasn't that far off from the 60's when he stopped writing. You need to be more informed. it would be no different If I were to overly criticize and over shadow Kirby's brilliance by'defining his art work as inconsistent and often sloppy with stark gazing faces and fingers and toes that look like sausages, and thick thick heavy inking.... hahaha. I don't know any writer who actually enjoyed writing as much as lee did. often in today's comics, which I detest collecting has barely any writing at all worth reading because there's barely any words in todays comics. yes, visually it's self explanatory. but that is the whole point of writing is to describe in words what is going on as apposed to assuming.
Pedro You're proving my point multiple times! You don't have 2 like Kirby's work, but he KEPT DOING IT, he was passionate and committed, unlike lee who stopped because he wasn't that good and was best used for marketing, and actually didn't like comics much and just wanted to be famous! You're uninformed and fooled by those stupid movie cameos, if you were really informed you'd know that it was actually Lee's assistant ROY THOMAS that was the real writer at marvel and modernized comic book world building, that's why lee stepped down he knew there was real writing talent. Stan Lee is visionary marketer, which is his talent, he was never a writer at heart or else he would've kept doing it. I also noticed you didn't mention anything specific about Stan Lee's writing talent, cult of personality dude.
@@lefthandedsophiethepop-wit503 Lee was an ideas man - Ditko said as much in a rebuff to Stans comments about how the new Dr Strange character would do ("Stan thinks he's the only one with ideas"), as have others who worked with him at the time (Dick Ayers said Stan was the most creative person he worked with at the NYCC 2009). I think it's naïve to think Stan had little to do with what went to print. It wasn't unusual for Stan to give the artists a basic script to follow in the pre hero books (source; Joe Sinnott) and that was how the Marvel age started, with Stan eventually giving the artists more plotting freedom. Stan would often get them to make changes to the finished pencils (notes in margins, like with AF 15 for example), but later as things got more busy he gave the artists more freedom, and they might put their notes in the margins for Stan. Most people who worked there back in the day will tell you just how much input Stan had. It's only in later years that some think he had little to do with it and was just marketing.
Welcome back. Every video you release teaches me more about the comics I love. You deserve far more recognition.
I’m getting back into comics again and your videos are always enjoyable and informative.
ABSOLUTE PERFECTION!
BRAVO! Well done.
I really enjoyed the longer format of the last couple of videos. Keep up the good work.
Love the video. Excellent work
Excellent choice for a video. After I've bought a full run of the series I've been waiting to catch up on in its entirety.
"God Juice" is my favorite line of any of YT video ever.
Any thoughts on the Eternals? How about Kamandi?
Or the Kirby Genesis title by Busiek and Ross in the 2010s?
I loved THE ETERNALS aka Fourth World Lite. I thought it was more cohesive because the story was confined to a single title! But BOTH are cool epics!
Really? That's ur favorite line?
@@Marvelfanatic3658 Ew.
great video! love this history.
Certain cultures have several periods called/translated as "worlds." Native cultures in particular have that. It's a reference to such religions.
I'm impressed dude. You got my sub off this first video of yours. You are doing an awesome job, keep it up.
This story is so interesting and this video is so well put together that I've watched it at least 5 times in the past few weeks
Aw. Thank you very much. I'm glad it did the trick for you.
So glad to see you back and with a wall to wall Kirby fest.
Being a comics fan in the 50s and 60s and 70s and gaps in collecting until today, I had the opportunity to see so much of what you discuss. I may have a quibble here and there but rarely disagree with what your laying down. The idea for this posting, where you gather an astronomical amount of information, boggles the mind. Thank you and why no standard send-off, "...until next time". It makes a fan rather twitchy.
Such a great video and commentary. You earned yourself a new sub! Cheers! :D
I learn something new everyday about Jack Kirby =)
This is a fantastic video, both in editing, analysis, and historic information. Unlike most of the comments I'm reading here, I appreciate that you weren't afraid to zero in and nail some of his weaknesses as an artistic entertainer. As for the late period "economy of line" style he ended his career with, I'd argue that afflicts almost EVERY artist in the final stages of their output; we can clearly see that with John Byrne, Frank Miller, and Mike Mignola today.
Jack the King Kirby was amazing from the legendary characters he created to the worlds they fight in all of it is amazing. Look at all the work he did at Marvel and basically created it. Dude damn near every cover for Marvel books back then. Tales of suspense , thor , hulk , X-Men , fantastic 4 all that work. Then his work at DC kamandi , new gods , forever people , demon , darkseid , mister miracle etc. Its amazing how much work he put into them pages.
great video!
Great video! I did not know all that stuff about the editorial changes on Hunger Dogs. I'm a little surprised that you didn't make a bigger deal of the fact that Big Barda was loosely inspired by Jack's wife Roz, and Mr Miracle was an escape artist cuz Jack met Jim Steranko who briefly held that job.
I love Kirby's work. I often wonder if he would have become as much of a household name as Stan did if he had lived to see Marvel take over Hollywood. Fantastic video and analysis.
He is a household name to real fans
My first encounter with Kirby's Fourth World was the final issue of Mr Miracle! I found it fascinating- so many weird characters, but it was Kamandi I really loved!
great to see some Kirby love
I just want to echo what people are already saying, but, I'm so glad to see another video by you! I also thought you had left! So glad your sticking around!
This was another great video. It's crazy to think of what a legacy these books have. In a lot of ways, they have shaped much of what came after them. However, like you, I do feel like the work itself is lacking. I love Kirby, and I think his work at DC is some Amazing stuff (though I prefer the non Fourth World titles) but I think you really nailed it when you said these books can be difficult to read. The biggest thing I think about with these books is I wish DC had found an editor to work with Kirby, that was truly working WITH Kirby towards his vision and not there own.
Wherever you fall on the Stan/Jack debate, to me, it's clear that Jack needed someone to help him present his ideas in a clear and coherent way.
Found your channel today and really enjoy listening to it while doing my own work... you should do a video on John Romita Sr spidey stuff.. maybe go through the whole life tablet saga ... current spidey title story arc actually just brought back the life tablet. i believe the tablet has been used on other spidey stories as well i missed years ago. my 2 favorite things about spidey is Romita Sr and original tablet story and nobody really talks about it, i think its romita and stan at there best!
Its amazing how a very creative artist like kirby got messed with by editorial at marvel and DC
Great piece. That said, you did omit the "best" part of the whole thing - right after Hunger Dogs, DC had Kirby do the second Super Powers mini, which starts shortly after the events of HD and directly references it. So basically, all of Kirby's Fourth World efforts ended up being the prologue for an out-of-continuity-with-everything-else toy commercial.
Very nice analysis.
That was a pretty even handed analysis. The less polite way of describing Kirby's working method was he was making it up as he went along, a technique that also found it's way into his penciling. No more layouts - just straight to paper - often starting with the head - which is why you start to see deformations in proportions in the 1970s. I always find it contradictory how people claim Kirby was disgusted by Marvel, but after his stint at DC - he went and did the exact same thing over again that was supposedly his impetus to leave. In fact, I would argue that the character designs of Eternals were far more creative than what he delivered to DC, certainly on New Gods anyway. Compare Orion's outfit (a Manhunter rehash) to Ikaris. Kirby's actions just don't jibe with the rhetoric.
I think his Eternals was just a second go at his New Gods stuff, but it was a better attempt. Certainly more readable. I can't remember who it was - may have been one of the later inkers at DC, but Kirby told him a story he had in mind, but it was completely different by the time it was on paper and nothing like the story Kirby had told, which jives with your analysis.
Brilliantly put together. I remember buying Kirby and Gerber's Destroyer Duck, around 1979/80/81? That comic discussed the shoddy treatment of both creators by Marvel. It never ceases to infuriate me.
YES!
i'm always in awe when i think about the magnitude of jack kirby's contributions to comics. He essential IS comics.
I was the biggest jack kirby fan ever in the 70s in the uk .got all his marvel stuff i could .I had a few copies of new gods recognised the cover ,there was another dc one omac one man army great stuff for a 8yr olds mind kirby and later brian bolland were for me the best comic artists of all time as a 8 to 16 yr old kid growing up in the 70s and 80s uk
At 6:01, look at the structure on the righthand side, the imagination it took to design that alone is mind staggering!
I absolutely loved the Fourth World stuff. Mister Miracle was an all time favorite of mine, and I enjoyed the New Gods, as well. I wish Kirby had been allowed to take his concept to its fruition. But I have to say, I recently re-read the early Mister Miracle series. The dialogue is awful.
I found the same with all Kirby written stuff. I only bought it for his art in the end. I think his ideas were great, but his writing wasn't so good and was why none of the DC books sold so were cancelled. Luckily Stan took him back. His writing there on Cap for example was also disappointing. Even Neal Adams felt there was something missing from his DC work, and said maybe it was Stan. I think Kirby and Stan needed each other for best results.
Reckon someone will oneday get these characters on the big screen…it will be wonderful to see how CGI brings Jacks world to life!
Hell yeah
Wow. the 4th World. What a Beautiful Mess.
Jack Kirby genius! Nuff said! 👍
hashtag release the kirby cut?
I understand a smart buisness has to cut titles that don't sell but a title that doesn't sell doesn't mean its a bad titles. I wish he'd could have kept going with those snubbed titles because he could have created something so amazing.
LOL I like the specific example you used when describing Kirby's dialog: "SHOUTING? SHOUTING!? OF COURSE I'M SHOUTING!!!"
Seriously though, I love Jack Kirby's work, especially the Fourth World Saga. It's definitely affected almost everything that's come out since. If you read enough DC comics in the modern day, these characters, settings and devices WILL pop up eventually, it's probably nearly impossible now to find a major event where they aren't involved somehow. Nice to see where it all began!
And remember... Darkseid is.
Okay but Kirby’s dialogue is good and awesome actually...
Bring back the ending! "........... Until next time."
I loved Forever People and The New Gods and was lukewarm at best on Mister Miracle. I was surprised when it lasted the longest.
Very happy to see you back. Happy to see old looks at Kirby expanded upon.
Kirby is definitely still one of my favorites in terms of both plotting and art but I think the 4th world stuff is Kirby at his most indulgent and I kinda feel like it thusly has all the Kirbyisms both good and bad ramped up to a hundred. I liked it, but I think it's an acquired taste while the 60s Marvel stuff is pretty universal and I'd say is better to start with.
But i also ADORE his Thor run,like it's somehow underrated cause I never hear anybody talking about it as a stand out run. Like the Fourth World most certainly owes a lot to that run, and I really feel like it is the place to see the way Kirby really transition into his desire for this huge final set of stories that was completely defined by his epic ambitions.
I feel like this video really helps me to understand why I can't really get into Jack Kirby's Eternals. Alot of how you describe Kirby's style when it comes to writing strikes accord with my experience reading through it. Maybe I should've started with Fantastic Four instead.
Kirby was and will always be The King! Amen!! (I was hoping for a little about how his concept art for the proposed film Lord of Light was used as a backdrop ruse in Operation Argo in Iran)...
Love his writing ! Operatic bombastic fantastic. If u are not in the mood read something eles....steve engheart..denny o'neal. Will esnier ....
For those interested, Charles Hatfield's "Hand of Fire: the comic art of Jack Kirby" is worth a read.
I quit buying comics around the end of Kirby's 4th world. Looks like about the right time.
I really hate DC for what it made to Alan Moore and Jack Kirby. I didnt know about any of this changes they made to his comics. I am in shock and really angry. But at the same time i always felt those fourth world stories kinda loose. But he should have been treated with a lot more respect.
Agreed. Though in some ways, DC has been better to creators than Marvel. At least according to Len Wein, who said he got nice paychecks for each appearance of supporting character Lucius Fox in the Nolan films but got nothing (or close to it) for all the uses of Woverine.
@Jacob Wood Yes, they both suck. I was just surprised to learn that DC, at least for a certain period of time, has done relatively better than Marvel.
I think the 4th world is my favorite Kirby work, despite it highlighting his flaws. It is more engaging/entertaining than The Eternals while having a distinct voice from his Stan collabs
I actually love the insane and "obnoxious" shouted dialogue. It's so over the top. I can see why people at the time didn't appreciate it but reading it now, it's just amazing.
Now his artwork on The Fourth World is indisputably fantastic. I don't like where this "calcified" comment is coming from. It's obviously some of the greatest comics artwork ever put on paper.
Do you think hunger dogs could ever be properly restored to Kirby's vision?
Kirby did more of the work. He had greater potential than some "partner" who sold out to Disney after appearing in Princess Diaries 2. Darkseid is my favorite of Kirby's villains.
He they wouldn’t be where they are now if it wasn’t for Kirby
Here's what I thought FOURTH WORLD referred to: 1. JIMMY OLSEN, 2. THE FOREVER PEOPLE 3. THE NEW GODS 4. MISTER MIRACLE.... A STORY TOLD IN FOUR BOOKS! TA DAAH....DONE! Not coincidentally, that's the order in which I read them once the TradePBKs came out! How are they arranged in the OMNIBUS editions?
BTW I ENJOY Kirby's writing! As you said, it is BOMBASTIC but where you find it "obnoxious" I find it OPERATIC and even once performed snippets of it in a poem, which the audience LIKED! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion so let's agree to disagree!
I think he could have made The Fourth World a creator owned comic, so he could have the right to do what he wants with his characters, he could have even still do the idea that New Genesis & Apocalyspe were created after Ragnarok in North Mythologie but he would have to make the Asgardien look different from their Marvel countreparts.
Please who's the character tied on the asteroid 22:35 ? I remember him from Superman the animated series or something when I was a kid.
4:00
Kirby loose plot.
The little a read, I had no idea what it’s about.
That's messed up because i bet if he could have had it completed it would be much different than what it became. Sounds epic in modern comics sounds like it would be its own phase or big enough to have a few movies within a comic book companies phases over the long hual if they formated their universe in phases.
Damn I can't believe Darkseid got mugged in the Armaguetto
Darkseid canonically worked at McDonald's.
I want to read hunger dogs
Such tragic story. He didn't get the credit he deserved and Stan Lee took advantage of him. Then, he goes to DC and can't get it together, his flaws as a writer coming to the fore, then back and forth without the recognition he deserved. Just for his 60's Marvel work, they should have given him a damn percentage of the company.
Stan gave Jack a lot of credit and even named him The King. He was always praising Jack in the books and even in interviews.
@@garyl5128 Yes, but he didn't give him the money to back it up. Stan Lee didn't treat him as he deserved. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Stan Lee fan. But it wasn't good.
@@JackBeddows I believe Jack was getting a fair rate just like all the other work for hire artists as well as high praise, and Stan took Jack back both times after he left to go elsewhere. Don't forget, Stan wasn't the owner - Martin Goodman was, so not everything was up to Stan. Stan was the guy in charge - chief writer/editor/art director etc but still an employee just like Jack. Don't believe all the conspiracy theory stuff about Stan, as much of it is just invented out of an unjustified hatred for Stan and can easily be debunked if you see what the people who were really there have to say about things. What happened to Jacks artwork was a travesty, but that wasn't down to Stan. Then again, most of the artists never got their artwork back.
@@garyl5128 Yeah, I'm not a Stan Basher. But I believe Stan got more credit and money for the creation of characters that Jack was equally responsible for. I need to read more about it. Thanks for your input!
@@JackBeddows You're welcome, and thanks for keeping things civil :o). Stan may have got more or even less credit depending on who you talk to outside of the Marvel offices, but he was a paid employee so never benefited financially directly from the creation of characters any more than the artists did. He was paid for his job same as everybody else and anything created by the employees was owned by Marvel, not the writers or artists. I believe there was a disclaimer that said as much on their paychecks that they had to sign in order for the check to be valid, so were signing away all ownership.
The problem with kirbys fourth world is that he always intended it to be a short one and gone concept. When it became a big hit and DC wanted more this seemed like a slap to kirby. They kept wanting him to provide more while he had always seen it as a short term event. The brass at DC then made a big effort to make it appear that all the confusion was due to Kirby!
The bigger then life art work forever changed comics,,, some stories need more complex writing, but some do not, also it depends in the reader and even the age of the reader. Without jack curby art work there would be no Spiderman,, the presentation of proportion got in to all the great artists on the web slinger. Thanks