The awful treatment of Kirby, both by DC and Marvel, is a shameful black stain on the history of the comics industry. The man was an absolute visionary and pushed the medium ahead decades.
Yes I'm not a fan of the pyramid business pushing all profits to the top,,, some have done all joint ownership and are successful against the pyramid competition. Stan also managed the artists down.
I’ve always loved how Jack Kirby drew technology. Such as weapons and other devices. They look so bizarre, miraculous and complex, which is what I like about them. These are machines that don’t look like they were invented by man. But by some inter dimensional God or and advanced alien race. Kirby’s complex and maze-like structures on these machines are just so awesome looking to me.
I remember reading an article where it was said that Jack Kirby loved reading Scientific American, and drew inspiration from photos of ships, power plants, computers, and other technological architecture, that he used them as models for his elaborate backgrounds of superhero and supervillain headquarters and sci-fi epics.
I think that "Superman: The Animated Series" was a sort of spiritual successor to King Kirby's work at DC. The way that the creators on that show wove the fourth world into Superman's story and world was just about perfect.
One of my favorite things among lots of great things about Thor: Ragnarock is the homage paid to Kirby in the use of his classic architecture and background patterns, complete with glaring comic book colors, set into live action scenes. That was Waititi showing respect for the master, as Kevin Feige called it, a love letter to Jack Kirby.
Kirby's architecture, both the buildings themselves and the rooms inside, was one of the things that mesmerized me as a kid! That and his mechanical contraptions and the energy bubbles surrounding extremely powerful beings or explosions. I was also glad that Watiti paid homage to his work in Ragnarok, however I wasn't that impressed by the result. 🤷🏼♂️ As a kid fascinated by these motifs on the walls, I saw them not as flat patterns but 3D pipes, wires and conduits proctruding from these walls. They had a function, allowing power, gaz or liquids to circulated throughout those buildings. The color patterns in the movie were fine, but looked more like a attempt at making a weird alien decorative style for the Grand Master installations. From my point of view, it failed the intended purpose as it gave those rooms a studio feel more than create an alien world atmosphere. I know, I was expecting too much; my inner child refuses to adapt to the adult world. 😉
@ yeah, many of those absolutely were impressionistic pipes, etc in his drawings, and I have always liked seeing comic stuff like that brought to life in live action sets by using, well, pipes etc. I was just kind of delighted to see them up on the walls like wallpaper, a Jack Kirby visual motif without being made “real” as the movies have been doing during this comic-based movie era. Kind of how Loki’s costumes in the movies were like real-life interpretations of the vibes, if not the literal designs, of his costumes in the comics: Seeing Richard E. Grant in the void as the Loki that came from the early 60’s Kirby comics was a hoot too. I get why it didn’t click for you though; I just liked the novel and audacious aspect of it.
I quite like Kirby's bombastic writing, and I think his choice of evocative words and phrases is more delibarate than accidental. In this period in particular it often reads an ancient mythological text, but with a modern or even faux-futuristic vocabulary. Lines like those of the prologue to New Gods #1 will probably be burnt into the back of my mind for the rest of my life. If nothing else I'd take Kirby at his worst over Stan's writing any day of the week.
When I was a kid in Nigeria in the 90s there was no access to comic books so I made due by watching the 90s Fantastic Four cartoon and seeing Black Panther, then watching Superman animated and Justice league animated/unlimited. It really introduced me to Jack Kirby and his phenomenal creations. He is definitely the king of western comics and that will never change.
I was first introduced to Jack Kirby's Fourth world, as a kid in Nigeria in the 2000s, via Bruce Timm's animated Superman and Justice League cartoons and I absolutely loved the lore, the depth and amazing characters and world building. The Judeo-Christian undertones were something I came to understand and appreciate as I got older. Jack Kirby is the greatest comic creator of all time🤩👍
It just blows my mind, how little Kirby got in exchange for how much he gave to DC and Marvel. I mean the sheer lack of faith, they had in him to carry a series is astounding.
Kirbys work is magnificent. The way he depicts alien architecture, machinery and outer space is 2nd to none. If only he had done some production design for Star Wars.
Kirby was a HUGE fan of pulp sci-fi and Scientific American! He drew inspiration from the art of the pulps and architecture of Scientific American to produce those wonders of complex backgrounds and machinery.
My understanding for why Jack Kirby ended up working on Jimmy Olsen is because when he got to DC he knew he was a big deal but he didn't want to take a job away from somebody so he just told them to put him on whatever books that nobody else was working on.
Kirby was Awesome, and underappreciated. His incredible output and fantastic concepts overwhelmed the marketplace at the time. I collected his work, wherever it appeared, but the companies he worked for constantly messed with him in an effort, I think, to control him. It's sad that he never got the opportunity to do the books his own way. I bought Hunger Dogs in a book store, not a comics shop. It was distributed as a Deluxe trade paperback, and not a comic book. I seem to recall that the SCOTT FREE character was inspired by Jim Steranko, who was also an escape artist, as well as a publisher and comic book artist himself. The KAMANDI and DEMON books are some of my most treasured collector items. The KIRBY COLLECTOR is a magazine currently published by TWOMORROWS and features content that reviews Kirby's work. Many rough and uninked pages are reproduced to break down the creative process that Kirby used. Thanks for your review !
To be honest, I like the hunger dogs, it fun, entertaining, and I think it has a meaningful ending for the new gods finding a new home, while darkseid is left alone on his broken planet.
SO GLAD to see you back, I hope it's a continued sign of things to come. I love everything about Kirby's work at DC, even the so-called throwaways like Justice Inc and Black Magic. Kamandi, OMAC, The Demon, all classics. The Fourth World of course is his Abbey Road. I treasure all of them. Keep em coming, man..! (That being said, again I noticed the absence of your amazing 'until next time' at the end...)
I purchased the massive Fourth World Omnibus last year which collected all the issues from Jimmy Olsen to Mister Miracle in chronological order. Once of the best buys I've ever made. Highly recommended if you can't afford to collect all the original issues.
I wonder how different marvel would be with Thor's cast of characters gone and Darkseid running around the marvel universe (There's a multiverse out there were Iron Man snaps his finger and Darkseid simply says NOO!!! )
I believe this was the better story and Exactly where the 4th world needed to be.You can always bring characters back However The mighty T hor and azgard is hard to brush away.
But still. Imagine that to this day Darkseid exists in Marvel. How different would the comic industry be? If someone makes what if videos about comics. Here's a prompt: What If Jack Kirby made the Fourth World at Marvel Comics?
$1 back then was equivalent to more than $30 now. Buying 5 comics would be a ground-able offense. You could use that dollar to go to the movies, buy lunch, and still have enough left over for a comic book.
Brilliantly put together. I remember buying Kirby and Gerber's Destroyer Duck, around 1979/80/81? That comic discussed the shoddy treatment of both creators by Marvel. It never ceases to infuriate me.
"God Juice" is my favorite line of any of YT video ever. Any thoughts on the Eternals? How about Kamandi? Or the Kirby Genesis title by Busiek and Ross in the 2010s?
This is a fantastic video, both in editing, analysis, and historic information. Unlike most of the comments I'm reading here, I appreciate that you weren't afraid to zero in and nail some of his weaknesses as an artistic entertainer. As for the late period "economy of line" style he ended his career with, I'd argue that afflicts almost EVERY artist in the final stages of their output; we can clearly see that with John Byrne, Frank Miller, and Mike Mignola today.
Kirby's strength seems to be hie was an "idea machine", as you say. In other words, if DC had let Kirby become an editor rather than forcing him to write and draw the Forth World, it could have been a long ongoing series with great ideas handed to better writers.
In an interview, Mr Kirby said he would do the first few issues of New Gods, Mister Miracle, & Forever People to set up the series; Orion was to have his own title. He had certain writers & artists to take over the books. Would have been a great imprint had DC allowed him to do this.
Roy Thomas said much the same, and that Jack needed reigning in, which is where Stan came in. Neal Adams said that there was something missing from Jacks DC stuff, and said maybe it was Stan.
You hit the nail on the head. Kirby was an amazing idea man and VISUAL storyteller. His writing, especially his dialogue, is virtually unreadable. He and Stan Lee are like Lennon and McCartney. They needed each other to truly shine.
Christopher Wilson Despite Kirby's shortcomings and Stan Lee's undeniable contributions to comics, 2 declare lee and Kirby as equal talents on a Lennon and McCarthy level is lazy and inaccurate . Lee was never a truly talented writer on any level, he was serviceable for comics of the time and a brilliant marketer, nobody of discerning taste looks to lee for writing tips. Kirby is a peerless talent that even young artist of today are gaining inspiration from, he is arguably the only true capital A artist the medium has ever produced. The proof is, we're still talking about his"flawed" fourth world and his so-called lesser works, it's the great unfinished symphony of comics! That's the the mark of a true artistic talent. No one talks about Lee beyond his initial silver age splash with Kirby and Ditko, because he wasn't good at anything but being a mascot.
@@lefthandedsophiethepop-wit503 I would disagree with you in saying that Lee was never a truly talented writer. that's rather absurd to say does show maybe, how little you know of how much he wrote/created. lee was prolific constantly writing, morning, afternoon, evening not for a few comics but for at least 10-15 separate comics all at the same time. just like Kirby was drawing for 8 or so comics. to down play his talent is unfair, inaccurate and shows how very uninformed you are. Lee took himself away from writing in '72 like any true artist would, when it's time to step down because you did all you could. so "no one talks about him beyond his silver age"? you know how ridiculous that sounds? 1972 wasn't that far off from the 60's when he stopped writing. You need to be more informed. it would be no different If I were to overly criticize and over shadow Kirby's brilliance by'defining his art work as inconsistent and often sloppy with stark gazing faces and fingers and toes that look like sausages, and thick thick heavy inking.... hahaha. I don't know any writer who actually enjoyed writing as much as lee did. often in today's comics, which I detest collecting has barely any writing at all worth reading because there's barely any words in todays comics. yes, visually it's self explanatory. but that is the whole point of writing is to describe in words what is going on as apposed to assuming.
Pedro You're proving my point multiple times! You don't have 2 like Kirby's work, but he KEPT DOING IT, he was passionate and committed, unlike lee who stopped because he wasn't that good and was best used for marketing, and actually didn't like comics much and just wanted to be famous! You're uninformed and fooled by those stupid movie cameos, if you were really informed you'd know that it was actually Lee's assistant ROY THOMAS that was the real writer at marvel and modernized comic book world building, that's why lee stepped down he knew there was real writing talent. Stan Lee is visionary marketer, which is his talent, he was never a writer at heart or else he would've kept doing it. I also noticed you didn't mention anything specific about Stan Lee's writing talent, cult of personality dude.
@@lefthandedsophiethepop-wit503 Lee was an ideas man - Ditko said as much in a rebuff to Stans comments about how the new Dr Strange character would do ("Stan thinks he's the only one with ideas"), as have others who worked with him at the time (Dick Ayers said Stan was the most creative person he worked with at the NYCC 2009). I think it's naïve to think Stan had little to do with what went to print. It wasn't unusual for Stan to give the artists a basic script to follow in the pre hero books (source; Joe Sinnott) and that was how the Marvel age started, with Stan eventually giving the artists more plotting freedom. Stan would often get them to make changes to the finished pencils (notes in margins, like with AF 15 for example), but later as things got more busy he gave the artists more freedom, and they might put their notes in the margins for Stan. Most people who worked there back in the day will tell you just how much input Stan had. It's only in later years that some think he had little to do with it and was just marketing.
One of the first comic book I've read as a kid was a Captain America by Jack Kirby. In it, Cap was constantly leaping, tumbling, hitting someone with his fist or his shield. It was so intense, there was so much energy in every page (every panel!) that I remember feeling exhausted when I finally put down the book. A true master in his craft. 🤩
So glad to see you back and with a wall to wall Kirby fest. Being a comics fan in the 50s and 60s and 70s and gaps in collecting until today, I had the opportunity to see so much of what you discuss. I may have a quibble here and there but rarely disagree with what your laying down. The idea for this posting, where you gather an astronomical amount of information, boggles the mind. Thank you and why no standard send-off, "...until next time". It makes a fan rather twitchy.
LOL I like the specific example you used when describing Kirby's dialog: "SHOUTING? SHOUTING!? OF COURSE I'M SHOUTING!!!" Seriously though, I love Jack Kirby's work, especially the Fourth World Saga. It's definitely affected almost everything that's come out since. If you read enough DC comics in the modern day, these characters, settings and devices WILL pop up eventually, it's probably nearly impossible now to find a major event where they aren't involved somehow. Nice to see where it all began! And remember... Darkseid is.
Jack the King Kirby was amazing from the legendary characters he created to the worlds they fight in all of it is amazing. Look at all the work he did at Marvel and basically created it. Dude damn near every cover for Marvel books back then. Tales of suspense , thor , hulk , X-Men , fantastic 4 all that work. Then his work at DC kamandi , new gods , forever people , demon , darkseid , mister miracle etc. Its amazing how much work he put into them pages.
I just want to echo what people are already saying, but, I'm so glad to see another video by you! I also thought you had left! So glad your sticking around! This was another great video. It's crazy to think of what a legacy these books have. In a lot of ways, they have shaped much of what came after them. However, like you, I do feel like the work itself is lacking. I love Kirby, and I think his work at DC is some Amazing stuff (though I prefer the non Fourth World titles) but I think you really nailed it when you said these books can be difficult to read. The biggest thing I think about with these books is I wish DC had found an editor to work with Kirby, that was truly working WITH Kirby towards his vision and not there own. Wherever you fall on the Stan/Jack debate, to me, it's clear that Jack needed someone to help him present his ideas in a clear and coherent way.
That was a pretty even handed analysis. The less polite way of describing Kirby's working method was he was making it up as he went along, a technique that also found it's way into his penciling. No more layouts - just straight to paper - often starting with the head - which is why you start to see deformations in proportions in the 1970s. I always find it contradictory how people claim Kirby was disgusted by Marvel, but after his stint at DC - he went and did the exact same thing over again that was supposedly his impetus to leave. In fact, I would argue that the character designs of Eternals were far more creative than what he delivered to DC, certainly on New Gods anyway. Compare Orion's outfit (a Manhunter rehash) to Ikaris. Kirby's actions just don't jibe with the rhetoric.
I think his Eternals was just a second go at his New Gods stuff, but it was a better attempt. Certainly more readable. I can't remember who it was - may have been one of the later inkers at DC, but Kirby told him a story he had in mind, but it was completely different by the time it was on paper and nothing like the story Kirby had told, which jives with your analysis.
I love Kirby's work. I often wonder if he would have become as much of a household name as Stan did if he had lived to see Marvel take over Hollywood. Fantastic video and analysis.
My first encounter with Kirby's Fourth World was the final issue of Mr Miracle! I found it fascinating- so many weird characters, but it was Kamandi I really loved!
Great video! I did not know all that stuff about the editorial changes on Hunger Dogs. I'm a little surprised that you didn't make a bigger deal of the fact that Big Barda was loosely inspired by Jack's wife Roz, and Mr Miracle was an escape artist cuz Jack met Jim Steranko who briefly held that job.
And many years later Walt Simonson delivered on Orion v Darkseid showdown in his awesome series. Probably the best visual representation of a superhero fight this side of Marvelman.
I understand a smart buisness has to cut titles that don't sell but a title that doesn't sell doesn't mean its a bad titles. I wish he'd could have kept going with those snubbed titles because he could have created something so amazing.
I was the biggest jack kirby fan ever in the 70s in the uk .got all his marvel stuff i could .I had a few copies of new gods recognised the cover ,there was another dc one omac one man army great stuff for a 8yr olds mind kirby and later brian bolland were for me the best comic artists of all time as a 8 to 16 yr old kid growing up in the 70s and 80s uk
I think he could have made The Fourth World a creator owned comic, so he could have the right to do what he wants with his characters, he could have even still do the idea that New Genesis & Apocalyspe were created after Ragnarok in North Mythologie but he would have to make the Asgardien look different from their Marvel countreparts.
Great piece. That said, you did omit the "best" part of the whole thing - right after Hunger Dogs, DC had Kirby do the second Super Powers mini, which starts shortly after the events of HD and directly references it. So basically, all of Kirby's Fourth World efforts ended up being the prologue for an out-of-continuity-with-everything-else toy commercial.
Found your channel today and really enjoy listening to it while doing my own work... you should do a video on John Romita Sr spidey stuff.. maybe go through the whole life tablet saga ... current spidey title story arc actually just brought back the life tablet. i believe the tablet has been used on other spidey stories as well i missed years ago. my 2 favorite things about spidey is Romita Sr and original tablet story and nobody really talks about it, i think its romita and stan at there best!
I actually love the insane and "obnoxious" shouted dialogue. It's so over the top. I can see why people at the time didn't appreciate it but reading it now, it's just amazing. Now his artwork on The Fourth World is indisputably fantastic. I don't like where this "calcified" comment is coming from. It's obviously some of the greatest comics artwork ever put on paper.
I absolutely loved the Fourth World stuff. Mister Miracle was an all time favorite of mine, and I enjoyed the New Gods, as well. I wish Kirby had been allowed to take his concept to its fruition. But I have to say, I recently re-read the early Mister Miracle series. The dialogue is awful.
I found the same with all Kirby written stuff. I only bought it for his art in the end. I think his ideas were great, but his writing wasn't so good and was why none of the DC books sold so were cancelled. Luckily Stan took him back. His writing there on Cap for example was also disappointing. Even Neal Adams felt there was something missing from his DC work, and said maybe it was Stan. I think Kirby and Stan needed each other for best results.
I feel like this video really helps me to understand why I can't really get into Jack Kirby's Eternals. Alot of how you describe Kirby's style when it comes to writing strikes accord with my experience reading through it. Maybe I should've started with Fantastic Four instead.
Kirby is basically Jordan in comics or at the least within the Marvel company, and I know the NBA would never disrespect Jordan they way Kirby was disrespected by Marvel.... He put in so much work and they did him wrong!!!
I really hate DC for what it made to Alan Moore and Jack Kirby. I didnt know about any of this changes they made to his comics. I am in shock and really angry. But at the same time i always felt those fourth world stories kinda loose. But he should have been treated with a lot more respect.
Agreed. Though in some ways, DC has been better to creators than Marvel. At least according to Len Wein, who said he got nice paychecks for each appearance of supporting character Lucius Fox in the Nolan films but got nothing (or close to it) for all the uses of Woverine.
Kirby is definitely still one of my favorites in terms of both plotting and art but I think the 4th world stuff is Kirby at his most indulgent and I kinda feel like it thusly has all the Kirbyisms both good and bad ramped up to a hundred. I liked it, but I think it's an acquired taste while the 60s Marvel stuff is pretty universal and I'd say is better to start with. But i also ADORE his Thor run,like it's somehow underrated cause I never hear anybody talking about it as a stand out run. Like the Fourth World most certainly owes a lot to that run, and I really feel like it is the place to see the way Kirby really transition into his desire for this huge final set of stories that was completely defined by his epic ambitions.
I think the 4th world is my favorite Kirby work, despite it highlighting his flaws. It is more engaging/entertaining than The Eternals while having a distinct voice from his Stan collabs
Here's what I thought FOURTH WORLD referred to: 1. JIMMY OLSEN, 2. THE FOREVER PEOPLE 3. THE NEW GODS 4. MISTER MIRACLE.... A STORY TOLD IN FOUR BOOKS! TA DAAH....DONE! Not coincidentally, that's the order in which I read them once the TradePBKs came out! How are they arranged in the OMNIBUS editions? BTW I ENJOY Kirby's writing! As you said, it is BOMBASTIC but where you find it "obnoxious" I find it OPERATIC and even once performed snippets of it in a poem, which the audience LIKED! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion so let's agree to disagree!
Kirby did more of the work. He had greater potential than some "partner" who sold out to Disney after appearing in Princess Diaries 2. Darkseid is my favorite of Kirby's villains.
The problem with kirbys fourth world is that he always intended it to be a short one and gone concept. When it became a big hit and DC wanted more this seemed like a slap to kirby. They kept wanting him to provide more while he had always seen it as a short term event. The brass at DC then made a big effort to make it appear that all the confusion was due to Kirby!
Kirby was and will always be The King! Amen!! (I was hoping for a little about how his concept art for the proposed film Lord of Light was used as a backdrop ruse in Operation Argo in Iran)...
The awful treatment of Kirby, both by DC and Marvel, is a shameful black stain on the history of the comics industry. The man was an absolute visionary and pushed the medium ahead decades.
Yes I'm not a fan of the pyramid business pushing all profits to the top,,, some have done all joint ownership and are successful against the pyramid competition. Stan also managed the artists down.
I wonder how Jack Kirby would have done at image comics or self publishing through the internet, we can only dream.
@@fcdraw Mr Kirby had done some series at Pacific Comics in the 1980s. Could someone find out more those characters ?
@@geraldstephens6612 thanks, I'll check it out.
With Marvel movies being so popular, it kills me most of the audience would know Lee but have no clue who the King is.
I’ve always loved how Jack Kirby drew technology. Such as weapons and other devices. They look so bizarre, miraculous and complex, which is what I like about them. These are machines that don’t look like they were invented by man. But by some inter dimensional God or and advanced alien race. Kirby’s complex and maze-like structures on these machines are just so awesome looking to me.
You can thank a book called Chariots of the Gods for this kind of idea being so huge back then. Truly the modern renaissance
The tech looks like it actually works too!
I remember reading an article where it was said that Jack Kirby loved reading Scientific American, and drew inspiration from photos of ships, power plants, computers, and other technological architecture, that he used them as models for his elaborate backgrounds of superhero and supervillain headquarters and sci-fi epics.
I think that "Superman: The Animated Series" was a sort of spiritual successor to King Kirby's work at DC. The way that the creators on that show wove the fourth world into Superman's story and world was just about perfect.
Even Dan Turpin was drawn to resemble Kirby.
When you get irritated with your boss so you create the gospel for the rival company. Kirby is brilliant.
And then that rival company treats you even worse, and cancels half your books before they reach 10 issues.
Kirby was in contact with Carmine Infantino 2 years before he actually did it and he was making plans to move to D.C. to get creative freedom.
Infantio kill the NewGods
@@andreasesser4641It didn't sell well. Stop demonizing everything.
Personally I love the Jack Kirby dialog it reads like sci-fi Shakespeare! It fits the art so well.
I completely agree.
Even Thor used to talk like Shakespeare.
"Metron! You icy mask!"
One of my favorite things among lots of great things about Thor: Ragnarock is the homage paid to Kirby in the use of his classic architecture and background patterns, complete with glaring comic book colors, set into live action scenes. That was Waititi showing respect for the master, as Kevin Feige called it, a love letter to Jack Kirby.
Kirby's architecture, both the buildings themselves and the rooms inside, was one of the things that mesmerized me as a kid! That and his mechanical contraptions and the energy bubbles surrounding extremely powerful beings or explosions. I was also glad that Watiti paid homage to his work in Ragnarok, however I wasn't that impressed by the result. 🤷🏼♂️ As a kid fascinated by these motifs on the walls, I saw them not as flat patterns but 3D pipes, wires and conduits proctruding from these walls. They had a function, allowing power, gaz or liquids to circulated throughout those buildings. The color patterns in the movie were fine, but looked more like a attempt at making a weird alien decorative style for the Grand Master installations. From my point of view, it failed the intended purpose as it gave those rooms a studio feel more than create an alien world atmosphere.
I know, I was expecting too much; my inner child refuses to adapt to the adult world. 😉
@ yeah, many of those absolutely were impressionistic pipes, etc in his drawings, and I have always liked seeing comic stuff like that brought to life in live action sets by using, well, pipes etc. I was just kind of delighted to see them up on the walls like wallpaper, a Jack Kirby visual motif without being made “real” as the movies have been doing during this comic-based movie era. Kind of how Loki’s costumes in the movies were like real-life interpretations of the vibes, if not the literal designs, of his costumes in the comics: Seeing Richard E. Grant in the void as the Loki that came from the early 60’s Kirby comics was a hoot too. I get why it didn’t click for you though; I just liked the novel and audacious aspect of it.
I quite like Kirby's bombastic writing, and I think his choice of evocative words and phrases is more delibarate than accidental. In this period in particular it often reads an ancient mythological text, but with a modern or even faux-futuristic vocabulary. Lines like those of the prologue to New Gods #1 will probably be burnt into the back of my mind for the rest of my life.
If nothing else I'd take Kirby at his worst over Stan's writing any day of the week.
When I was a kid in Nigeria in the 90s there was no access to comic books so I made due by watching the 90s Fantastic Four cartoon and seeing Black Panther, then watching Superman animated and Justice league animated/unlimited. It really introduced me to Jack Kirby and his phenomenal creations. He is definitely the king of western comics and that will never change.
I was first introduced to Jack Kirby's Fourth world, as a kid in Nigeria in the 2000s, via Bruce Timm's animated Superman and Justice League cartoons and I absolutely loved the lore, the depth and amazing characters and world building. The Judeo-Christian undertones were something I came to understand and appreciate as I got older. Jack Kirby is the greatest comic creator of all time🤩👍
It just blows my mind, how little Kirby got in exchange for how much he gave to DC and Marvel.
I mean the sheer lack of faith, they had in him to carry a series is astounding.
It will always be a tragedy that Jack Kirby never got to complete his vision for the Fourth World in its initial comic run.
I think it would've been a greater success because there's so many more options today that Kirby could've taken advantage of.
Kirbys work is magnificent. The way he depicts alien architecture, machinery and outer space is 2nd to none. If only he had done some production design for Star Wars.
True. But , he was a pretty poor writer. I think he did need a partner, like Lee or Simons to give him direction.
Kirby was a HUGE fan of pulp sci-fi and Scientific American! He drew inspiration from the art of the pulps and architecture of Scientific American to produce those wonders of complex backgrounds and machinery.
My understanding for why Jack Kirby ended up working on Jimmy Olsen is because when he got to DC he knew he was a big deal but he didn't want to take a job away from somebody so he just told them to put him on whatever books that nobody else was working on.
This channel is criminally underrated
Kirby was Awesome, and underappreciated. His incredible output and fantastic concepts overwhelmed the marketplace at the time. I collected his work, wherever it appeared, but the companies he worked for constantly messed with him in an effort, I think, to control him. It's sad that he never got the opportunity to do the books his own way. I bought Hunger Dogs in a book store, not a comics shop. It was distributed as a Deluxe trade paperback, and not a comic book. I seem to recall that the SCOTT FREE character was inspired by Jim Steranko, who was also an escape artist, as well as a publisher and comic book artist himself. The KAMANDI and DEMON books are some of my most treasured collector items. The KIRBY COLLECTOR is a magazine currently published by TWOMORROWS and features content that reviews Kirby's work. Many rough and uninked pages are reproduced to break down the creative process that Kirby used. Thanks for your review !
To be honest, I like the hunger dogs, it fun, entertaining, and I think it has a meaningful ending for the new gods finding a new home, while darkseid is left alone on his broken planet.
In my opinion, the Fourth World is definitely Jack Kirby's magnum opus.
I agree. Too bad he couldn't end it how he wanted to.
I love the Fourth World.
Welcome back my favorite man god. For a second, I’ve fought you left.
SO GLAD to see you back, I hope it's a continued sign of things to come.
I love everything about Kirby's work at DC, even the so-called throwaways like Justice Inc and Black Magic.
Kamandi, OMAC, The Demon, all classics. The Fourth World of course is his Abbey Road. I treasure all of them.
Keep em coming, man..! (That being said, again I noticed the absence of your amazing 'until next time' at the end...)
I purchased the massive Fourth World Omnibus last year which collected all the issues from Jimmy Olsen to Mister Miracle in chronological order. Once of the best buys I've ever made. Highly recommended if you can't afford to collect all the original issues.
I wonder how different marvel would be with Thor's cast of characters gone and Darkseid running around the marvel universe (There's a multiverse out there were Iron Man snaps his finger and Darkseid simply says NOO!!! )
I believe this was the better story and Exactly where the 4th world needed to be.You can always bring characters back However The mighty T hor and azgard is hard to brush away.
But still. Imagine that to this day Darkseid exists in Marvel. How different would the comic industry be? If someone makes what if videos about comics. Here's a prompt: What If Jack Kirby made the Fourth World at Marvel Comics?
Kirby really is The King. His presence on culture today across the world is beyond doubt.
$1 back then was equivalent to more than $30 now.
Buying 5 comics would be a ground-able offense.
You could use that dollar to go to the movies, buy lunch, and still have enough left over for a comic book.
Brilliantly put together. I remember buying Kirby and Gerber's Destroyer Duck, around 1979/80/81? That comic discussed the shoddy treatment of both creators by Marvel. It never ceases to infuriate me.
Reckon someone will oneday get these characters on the big screen…it will be wonderful to see how CGI brings Jacks world to life!
"God Juice" is my favorite line of any of YT video ever.
Any thoughts on the Eternals? How about Kamandi?
Or the Kirby Genesis title by Busiek and Ross in the 2010s?
I loved THE ETERNALS aka Fourth World Lite. I thought it was more cohesive because the story was confined to a single title! But BOTH are cool epics!
Really? That's ur favorite line?
@@Marvelfanatic3658 Ew.
New Gods series from 1989 is worth reading.
This is a fantastic video, both in editing, analysis, and historic information. Unlike most of the comments I'm reading here, I appreciate that you weren't afraid to zero in and nail some of his weaknesses as an artistic entertainer. As for the late period "economy of line" style he ended his career with, I'd argue that afflicts almost EVERY artist in the final stages of their output; we can clearly see that with John Byrne, Frank Miller, and Mike Mignola today.
Kirby's strength seems to be hie was an "idea machine", as you say. In other words, if DC had let Kirby become an editor rather than forcing him to write and draw the Forth World, it could have been a long ongoing series with great ideas handed to better writers.
I'm sure a editor employee had other ideas on that to keep a job
Check out a magazine called The Jack Kirby Reader ; the interviews with Mr Kirby himself & others who worked with him are printed there.
In an interview, Mr Kirby said he would do the first few issues of New Gods, Mister Miracle, & Forever People to set up the series; Orion was to have his own title. He had certain writers & artists to take over the books. Would have been a great imprint had DC allowed him to do this.
@@dianathompson7597 Yes someone in DC management did.
Roy Thomas said much the same, and that Jack needed reigning in, which is where Stan came in. Neal Adams said that there was something missing from Jacks DC stuff, and said maybe it was Stan.
I'm impressed dude. You got my sub off this first video of yours. You are doing an awesome job, keep it up.
You hit the nail on the head. Kirby was an amazing idea man and VISUAL storyteller. His writing, especially his dialogue, is virtually unreadable. He and Stan Lee are like Lennon and McCartney. They needed each other to truly shine.
Christopher Wilson Despite Kirby's shortcomings and Stan Lee's undeniable contributions to comics, 2 declare lee and Kirby as equal talents on a Lennon and McCarthy level is lazy and inaccurate . Lee was never a truly talented writer on any level, he was serviceable for comics of the time and a brilliant marketer, nobody of discerning taste looks to lee for writing tips. Kirby is a peerless talent that even young artist of today are gaining inspiration from, he is arguably the only true capital A artist the medium has ever produced. The proof is, we're still talking about his"flawed" fourth world and his so-called lesser works, it's the great unfinished symphony of comics! That's the the mark of a true artistic talent. No one talks about Lee beyond his initial silver age splash with Kirby and Ditko, because he wasn't good at anything but being a mascot.
@@lefthandedsophiethepop-wit503 Point.🖖
@@lefthandedsophiethepop-wit503 I would disagree with you in saying that Lee was never a truly talented writer. that's rather absurd to say does show maybe, how little you know of how much he wrote/created. lee was prolific constantly writing, morning, afternoon, evening not for a few comics but for at least 10-15 separate comics all at the same time. just like Kirby was drawing for 8 or so comics. to down play his talent is unfair, inaccurate and shows how very uninformed you are. Lee took himself away from writing in '72 like any true artist would, when it's time to step down because you did all you could. so "no one talks about him beyond his silver age"? you know how ridiculous that sounds? 1972 wasn't that far off from the 60's when he stopped writing. You need to be more informed. it would be no different If I were to overly criticize and over shadow Kirby's brilliance by'defining his art work as inconsistent and often sloppy with stark gazing faces and fingers and toes that look like sausages, and thick thick heavy inking.... hahaha. I don't know any writer who actually enjoyed writing as much as lee did. often in today's comics, which I detest collecting has barely any writing at all worth reading because there's barely any words in todays comics. yes, visually it's self explanatory. but that is the whole point of writing is to describe in words what is going on as apposed to assuming.
Pedro You're proving my point multiple times! You don't have 2 like Kirby's work, but he KEPT DOING IT, he was passionate and committed, unlike lee who stopped because he wasn't that good and was best used for marketing, and actually didn't like comics much and just wanted to be famous! You're uninformed and fooled by those stupid movie cameos, if you were really informed you'd know that it was actually Lee's assistant ROY THOMAS that was the real writer at marvel and modernized comic book world building, that's why lee stepped down he knew there was real writing talent. Stan Lee is visionary marketer, which is his talent, he was never a writer at heart or else he would've kept doing it. I also noticed you didn't mention anything specific about Stan Lee's writing talent, cult of personality dude.
@@lefthandedsophiethepop-wit503 Lee was an ideas man - Ditko said as much in a rebuff to Stans comments about how the new Dr Strange character would do ("Stan thinks he's the only one with ideas"), as have others who worked with him at the time (Dick Ayers said Stan was the most creative person he worked with at the NYCC 2009). I think it's naïve to think Stan had little to do with what went to print. It wasn't unusual for Stan to give the artists a basic script to follow in the pre hero books (source; Joe Sinnott) and that was how the Marvel age started, with Stan eventually giving the artists more plotting freedom. Stan would often get them to make changes to the finished pencils (notes in margins, like with AF 15 for example), but later as things got more busy he gave the artists more freedom, and they might put their notes in the margins for Stan. Most people who worked there back in the day will tell you just how much input Stan had. It's only in later years that some think he had little to do with it and was just marketing.
One of the first comic book I've read as a kid was a Captain America by Jack Kirby. In it, Cap was constantly leaping, tumbling, hitting someone with his fist or his shield. It was so intense, there was so much energy in every page (every panel!) that I remember feeling exhausted when I finally put down the book. A true master in his craft. 🤩
So glad to see you back and with a wall to wall Kirby fest.
Being a comics fan in the 50s and 60s and 70s and gaps in collecting until today, I had the opportunity to see so much of what you discuss. I may have a quibble here and there but rarely disagree with what your laying down. The idea for this posting, where you gather an astronomical amount of information, boggles the mind. Thank you and why no standard send-off, "...until next time". It makes a fan rather twitchy.
Welcome back. Every video you release teaches me more about the comics I love. You deserve far more recognition.
Glad to see you back with a new video!
great video, epic overview of Kirby's Forth World!
My favorite Kirby work. Thanks for this
Certain cultures have several periods called/translated as "worlds." Native cultures in particular have that. It's a reference to such religions.
LOL I like the specific example you used when describing Kirby's dialog: "SHOUTING? SHOUTING!? OF COURSE I'M SHOUTING!!!"
Seriously though, I love Jack Kirby's work, especially the Fourth World Saga. It's definitely affected almost everything that's come out since. If you read enough DC comics in the modern day, these characters, settings and devices WILL pop up eventually, it's probably nearly impossible now to find a major event where they aren't involved somehow. Nice to see where it all began!
And remember... Darkseid is.
King Kirby he was called.
ABSOLUTE PERFECTION!
BRAVO! Well done.
This story is so interesting and this video is so well put together that I've watched it at least 5 times in the past few weeks
Aw. Thank you very much. I'm glad it did the trick for you.
Jack the King Kirby was amazing from the legendary characters he created to the worlds they fight in all of it is amazing. Look at all the work he did at Marvel and basically created it. Dude damn near every cover for Marvel books back then. Tales of suspense , thor , hulk , X-Men , fantastic 4 all that work. Then his work at DC kamandi , new gods , forever people , demon , darkseid , mister miracle etc. Its amazing how much work he put into them pages.
hashtag release the kirby cut?
At 6:01, look at the structure on the righthand side, the imagination it took to design that alone is mind staggering!
I just want to echo what people are already saying, but, I'm so glad to see another video by you! I also thought you had left! So glad your sticking around!
This was another great video. It's crazy to think of what a legacy these books have. In a lot of ways, they have shaped much of what came after them. However, like you, I do feel like the work itself is lacking. I love Kirby, and I think his work at DC is some Amazing stuff (though I prefer the non Fourth World titles) but I think you really nailed it when you said these books can be difficult to read. The biggest thing I think about with these books is I wish DC had found an editor to work with Kirby, that was truly working WITH Kirby towards his vision and not there own.
Wherever you fall on the Stan/Jack debate, to me, it's clear that Jack needed someone to help him present his ideas in a clear and coherent way.
Its amazing how a very creative artist like kirby got messed with by editorial at marvel and DC
That was a pretty even handed analysis. The less polite way of describing Kirby's working method was he was making it up as he went along, a technique that also found it's way into his penciling. No more layouts - just straight to paper - often starting with the head - which is why you start to see deformations in proportions in the 1970s. I always find it contradictory how people claim Kirby was disgusted by Marvel, but after his stint at DC - he went and did the exact same thing over again that was supposedly his impetus to leave. In fact, I would argue that the character designs of Eternals were far more creative than what he delivered to DC, certainly on New Gods anyway. Compare Orion's outfit (a Manhunter rehash) to Ikaris. Kirby's actions just don't jibe with the rhetoric.
I think his Eternals was just a second go at his New Gods stuff, but it was a better attempt. Certainly more readable. I can't remember who it was - may have been one of the later inkers at DC, but Kirby told him a story he had in mind, but it was completely different by the time it was on paper and nothing like the story Kirby had told, which jives with your analysis.
You always have me waiting for new vids, love your content 👍
I love Kirby's work. I often wonder if he would have become as much of a household name as Stan did if he had lived to see Marvel take over Hollywood. Fantastic video and analysis.
He is a household name to real fans
My first encounter with Kirby's Fourth World was the final issue of Mr Miracle! I found it fascinating- so many weird characters, but it was Kamandi I really loved!
Excellent choice for a video. After I've bought a full run of the series I've been waiting to catch up on in its entirety.
I really enjoyed the longer format of the last couple of videos. Keep up the good work.
Great video! I did not know all that stuff about the editorial changes on Hunger Dogs. I'm a little surprised that you didn't make a bigger deal of the fact that Big Barda was loosely inspired by Jack's wife Roz, and Mr Miracle was an escape artist cuz Jack met Jim Steranko who briefly held that job.
To the tasteless halfwits complaining about JK's art and writing: "The Glory Boat" and "The Pact" are two of the finest comics ever published.
great video! love this history.
Excellent work as always!
Congrats! Excelent work!
Welcome back. Made my day seeing this in my feed. Excellent + exceptional as always.
I learn something new everyday about Jack Kirby =)
Fantastic as always!
I’m getting back into comics again and your videos are always enjoyable and informative.
And many years later Walt Simonson delivered on Orion v Darkseid showdown in his awesome series. Probably the best visual representation of a superhero fight this side of Marvelman.
I understand a smart buisness has to cut titles that don't sell but a title that doesn't sell doesn't mean its a bad titles. I wish he'd could have kept going with those snubbed titles because he could have created something so amazing.
this video is awesome, thanks for doing this!
I was the biggest jack kirby fan ever in the 70s in the uk .got all his marvel stuff i could .I had a few copies of new gods recognised the cover ,there was another dc one omac one man army great stuff for a 8yr olds mind kirby and later brian bolland were for me the best comic artists of all time as a 8 to 16 yr old kid growing up in the 70s and 80s uk
I think he could have made The Fourth World a creator owned comic, so he could have the right to do what he wants with his characters, he could have even still do the idea that New Genesis & Apocalyspe were created after Ragnarok in North Mythologie but he would have to make the Asgardien look different from their Marvel countreparts.
Very happy to see you back. Happy to see old looks at Kirby expanded upon.
Great piece. That said, you did omit the "best" part of the whole thing - right after Hunger Dogs, DC had Kirby do the second Super Powers mini, which starts shortly after the events of HD and directly references it. So basically, all of Kirby's Fourth World efforts ended up being the prologue for an out-of-continuity-with-everything-else toy commercial.
Love the video. Excellent work
Found your channel today and really enjoy listening to it while doing my own work... you should do a video on John Romita Sr spidey stuff.. maybe go through the whole life tablet saga ... current spidey title story arc actually just brought back the life tablet. i believe the tablet has been used on other spidey stories as well i missed years ago. my 2 favorite things about spidey is Romita Sr and original tablet story and nobody really talks about it, i think its romita and stan at there best!
Such a great video and commentary. You earned yourself a new sub! Cheers! :D
Wow. the 4th World. What a Beautiful Mess.
I actually love the insane and "obnoxious" shouted dialogue. It's so over the top. I can see why people at the time didn't appreciate it but reading it now, it's just amazing.
Now his artwork on The Fourth World is indisputably fantastic. I don't like where this "calcified" comment is coming from. It's obviously some of the greatest comics artwork ever put on paper.
Please who's the character tied on the asteroid 22:35 ? I remember him from Superman the animated series or something when I was a kid.
Love his writing ! Operatic bombastic fantastic. If u are not in the mood read something eles....steve engheart..denny o'neal. Will esnier ....
I absolutely loved the Fourth World stuff. Mister Miracle was an all time favorite of mine, and I enjoyed the New Gods, as well. I wish Kirby had been allowed to take his concept to its fruition. But I have to say, I recently re-read the early Mister Miracle series. The dialogue is awful.
I found the same with all Kirby written stuff. I only bought it for his art in the end. I think his ideas were great, but his writing wasn't so good and was why none of the DC books sold so were cancelled. Luckily Stan took him back. His writing there on Cap for example was also disappointing. Even Neal Adams felt there was something missing from his DC work, and said maybe it was Stan. I think Kirby and Stan needed each other for best results.
I feel like this video really helps me to understand why I can't really get into Jack Kirby's Eternals. Alot of how you describe Kirby's style when it comes to writing strikes accord with my experience reading through it. Maybe I should've started with Fantastic Four instead.
great to see some Kirby love
great video!
Kirby is basically Jordan in comics or at the least within the Marvel company, and I know the NBA would never disrespect Jordan they way Kirby was disrespected by Marvel.... He put in so much work and they did him wrong!!!
Okay but Kirby’s dialogue is good and awesome actually...
i'm always in awe when i think about the magnitude of jack kirby's contributions to comics. He essential IS comics.
Do you think hunger dogs could ever be properly restored to Kirby's vision?
I really hate DC for what it made to Alan Moore and Jack Kirby. I didnt know about any of this changes they made to his comics. I am in shock and really angry. But at the same time i always felt those fourth world stories kinda loose. But he should have been treated with a lot more respect.
Agreed. Though in some ways, DC has been better to creators than Marvel. At least according to Len Wein, who said he got nice paychecks for each appearance of supporting character Lucius Fox in the Nolan films but got nothing (or close to it) for all the uses of Woverine.
@Jacob Wood Yes, they both suck. I was just surprised to learn that DC, at least for a certain period of time, has done relatively better than Marvel.
Jack Kirby genius! Nuff said! 👍
Very nice analysis.
Kirby is definitely still one of my favorites in terms of both plotting and art but I think the 4th world stuff is Kirby at his most indulgent and I kinda feel like it thusly has all the Kirbyisms both good and bad ramped up to a hundred. I liked it, but I think it's an acquired taste while the 60s Marvel stuff is pretty universal and I'd say is better to start with.
But i also ADORE his Thor run,like it's somehow underrated cause I never hear anybody talking about it as a stand out run. Like the Fourth World most certainly owes a lot to that run, and I really feel like it is the place to see the way Kirby really transition into his desire for this huge final set of stories that was completely defined by his epic ambitions.
Jack The King Kirby
I quit buying comics around the end of Kirby's 4th world. Looks like about the right time.
I think the 4th world is my favorite Kirby work, despite it highlighting his flaws. It is more engaging/entertaining than The Eternals while having a distinct voice from his Stan collabs
Proud owner of Mister Miracle issue 1 & 4, Forever People issue 2. 🤑
Here's what I thought FOURTH WORLD referred to: 1. JIMMY OLSEN, 2. THE FOREVER PEOPLE 3. THE NEW GODS 4. MISTER MIRACLE.... A STORY TOLD IN FOUR BOOKS! TA DAAH....DONE! Not coincidentally, that's the order in which I read them once the TradePBKs came out! How are they arranged in the OMNIBUS editions?
BTW I ENJOY Kirby's writing! As you said, it is BOMBASTIC but where you find it "obnoxious" I find it OPERATIC and even once performed snippets of it in a poem, which the audience LIKED! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion so let's agree to disagree!
Genious aren´t understood, that's why idiots say "I didn´t understand Kirby's fourth world".
YES!
Kirby did more of the work. He had greater potential than some "partner" who sold out to Disney after appearing in Princess Diaries 2. Darkseid is my favorite of Kirby's villains.
He they wouldn’t be where they are now if it wasn’t for Kirby
Bring back the ending! "........... Until next time."
The problem with kirbys fourth world is that he always intended it to be a short one and gone concept. When it became a big hit and DC wanted more this seemed like a slap to kirby. They kept wanting him to provide more while he had always seen it as a short term event. The brass at DC then made a big effort to make it appear that all the confusion was due to Kirby!
Kirby was and will always be The King! Amen!! (I was hoping for a little about how his concept art for the proposed film Lord of Light was used as a backdrop ruse in Operation Argo in Iran)...
There should always be a low budget version of a comic that's verbatim. Too great a change looks odd in big budget movies