Understanding What Makes a Match-Up Hard
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- Опубликовано: 20 окт 2024
- streamed Dec. 6, 2022
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People will just not accept that their character can have winning match ups against characters that can blow them up for making mistakes
It’s also common that you just don’t know the things that make the MU easy or hard for your character or opponent’s character yet. Sometimes that’s how it goes
To be fair, its hard to gauge when the matchup is good or not. Millias matchup vs Gold looks similar at first glance, but its one of the worst matchups in the entire game and very free for Gold
@@DarkKnight179 yah this is also kind of similar with Bridget v Goldlewis. Yes Goldlewis gets wrecked in neutral, but Bridget is made of wet tissue paper so one mistake can end a round. It’s still Bridget favored, but it isn’t a ridiculous spread
@@DarkKnight179 I talk about this compared to Chipp, and the way they approach and how their offense is structured flips it around entirely.
@@SupermanSajam Yeah, thats what I was getting at, it looks similar at first glance, but is entirely different once you look closer, but if youre not familiar with the matchup from either side, its really hard to tell. Its similar to how people who dont know the matchup tend to still think Axl is favoured vs Goldlewis (because it has to be, right? Axl is a Zoner, and Goldlewis is a big slow dude), but actually its the other way around now.
What makes a match up hard is that MY character has a high skill requirement and the OTHER character is OP and needs to be nerfed
Baiken?
@@mikhail21 bruh, Baiken is the most balanced character of the game. No nerf no buffs. let mommy alone.
@@yoannsoh4009 that's what I was implying. She needs a high skill requirement to be used. BlueBlazer was only saying that the OTHER character that's OP would be Ram, HC, Nago, etc.
@@mikhail21 any character needs a high skill requirement to be used if you really think about it
@@demiurge2501 true. But the one on a lower standing needs to be highly executed in order to match that which has a higher standing
but tod clips on twitter and reddit mean chipp is actually mid and loses when he gets hits once
what makes a matchup hard is THIS GUY HAS AN AUTO AIMING GUN AND I ONLY HAVE A HOVERDASH I CANNOT DASHBLOCK I GET SENT FULLSCREEN ON AIR BLOCK PLEASE DIASUKE
“But HC doesn’t have any reversals!!!1!1!1!” 😐😐😐
Glad Testament is in the perfect spot to have all the other characters take the flak from the general populace
Top 7 truly be the sweet spot
obama was right pick a mid tier. you know testaments getting sum sweet stuff in the next patch now
@@TheJbrown60 out of context your comment is pretty damn funny
I'm cackling at this
Testament is a completely honest character with absolutely no warcrimes like a plus near-fullscreen overhead :)
@@TheJbrown60 Testaments top 7 nowadays?
Another chapter in the saga of "Chat Just Making Shit Up."
chat vs knowing wtf theyre talking about is a 0-10 mu fr
I know some of this video was kind of shunning people who don’t understand how some matchups work, but I really appreciate these kinds of videos from Sajam. Just trying to clarify and explain things in this game really helps out. Jam the goat
I think its more shunning people who are heavily opinionated about certain matchups without understanding them
No shame for people not understanding matchups. Its people that ignore matchups just to harp on their character's weaknesses getting shamed
I have no problem with people not understanding anything, ever. But saying "but Chipp life low damage high" over and over means you really have to be like "listen here"
@@tongpoo8985 Loud ignorant opinions? In MY fgc?
The matchup can't be good, because if it is then I just suck at the game and that can't possibly be true
It's like a Pot-Millia matchup. Potemkim players hate it because they never have a chance to play, and Millia players hate it because they have to do so many mix-ups to kill him since Millia has low dmg and Pot has high def, and one mistake can blow them up
Funny enough, the matchup was super pot-favoured originally. However, nowadays with Millias most recent buffs, its more even. Now Millias worst matchup is Goldlewis by a mile, and its like one of the 3 worst matchups in the game.
Not really that MU is easily Pot favoured.
@@gatocochino5594 pot struggles the second Millia gets a knockdown. His defense is ass, his fastest button is a 5f P that whiffs if millia is dashing or crouching and his 2p is 8f good luck getting out of the blender once you’re in.
@@jordanreyna8744 Do you play Pot?
you have to be a dog shit pot player to think that about the MU lmao. Its actually just free if you take like 5 seconds to learn how to block millia.
It's an old saying of Guilty Gear that "A standing still chipp or millia is the scariest shit".
The 2 layers of this are 1, when fast character patient, they get more valid interaction. 2, the mu allow them to do 1.
Broadly speaking, I don't think of matchups in terms of "what advantage do the characters have?"; I always frame it in one of two ways:
1. Which character has to take more risks (e.g do more stuff that's unsafe and open to punishes, easy counters, etc.) to win?
2. Whose gameplan is more unstable (e.g requires a lot more flat-out guessing/hoping that the opponent makes a bad decision)?
These two, imo, are actually the same thing; but, some people understand one prompt better than the other.
Chipp always has less HP XD
It's not over until he's down because he can manage some crazy clutch comebacks.
chipp kinda doesn't care about where his health is he can commit robbery whenever he can
The “x character has less Hp at this point therefore they are losing in this matchup” brought up in chat is absurd
If I’m playing Nago and they’re Pot, I have half Hp bc he pot busted me, does that mean Pot wins this matchup?? Even if I’ve shoved him in the corner and cranked his risk bc he legit has 0 options in the corner?
Chipp main here... I agree... Chipp is favoured against Goldlewis and deffo highly favoured against Potemkin...
Once he's facing characters that can hardly move or take forever to recover it can be a wrap as long as you play it right.
If a character can't do what they want then their damage output matters less.
and even if i have to hit you 26 times to kill you, if i can swing 300 times and you mostly just have to sit there and watch me play, it's probably good for me.
I like Goldlewis cause alot of the time as long as I hit the Typhoon it's great times.
Which Typhoon usually doesn't matter, only the stick knows that.
Another factor that I feel makes understanding character matchups harder for alot of people is character knowledge and playstyles. Not knowing what is punishable or minus, the "range" the character plays in, and what pressure is good against them can make any character seem broken if you barely know them.
It's like people don't play the game when they say this stuff. I had someone tell me Gio can't win roundstart vs Goldlewis because her 6P loses to f.S.
A couple weeks ago a guy asked for someone to check their SFV replay on reddit and looked for advice. I looked at the replay. I commented everything he could've punished, he couldn't do a single cancel into special move, but most importantly what stood out to me was that he wasn't moving at all. No forward or backward movement by moving the stick. Since that post I've seen that guy commenting on multiple fighting subreddits about matchups, tiers, buffs and nerfs, with so much damned authority that I literally feel sick every time I see their name. That guy is the majority of people who have the most opinions on stuff they shouldn't have a say in. Can't move forward on the stick, yet has an opinion on a matchup.
The amount of people that act like "you do more damage per successful interaction than me therefore your character is better" is so annoying.
As someone who's played a lot of questionably designed fighting games, i get a lot of experience in bad matchups. Especially considering the unironic 10-0 matchups i've seen. A big determining factor in what makes a matchup a matchup is when you can think "this character is planning to do a thing, they do this thing all the time and they're schemin away planning to do it again, what are my options" and the answers you come up with there are normally how you know how boned you are. Like, on a scale of "this guy's flying at me, but i can just swat him into next week before he even gets to push a button" to "i literally possess zero buttons that dont actively benefit my opponent, guess i'll die" with the upper middle ground of "unless he does something crazy im good" to the lower middle ground of "pick a button and pray(where our goldlewis was sitting)" and everyone's favorite, actual rock paper sciscors.
I love how at the end of sajams videos he zooms in and tells us how he really feels.
Slight correction: he doesn't zoom in, he actually physically gets bigger
When the days of stream chat and social media came about it was evident fighting game community would become a big echo chamber of people that don’t know what the fuck they are talking about and having that loud of a voice influences things it shouldn’t. But I do like the clarity in this video
I think a thing people sometimes don't consider when they talk about their own character's matchups is that the type of play you adopt also has to change. Like with the first example of Chipp vs GL, Chipp does have great tools for whiff punishing GL, keeping him locked down and breaking out of his pressure - if you're smart about when you use those tools and take a more measured approach. If you just try to run it down and force mixups from any position, you explode from a single hit and die in real life. If your entire game plan is running it down and you have not considered that the funny ninja man doesn't _need_ to be holding forwards at all times, then when someone suggests it's actually a winning matchup you might start scratching your head. None of this is a defense for those sorts of players, just an observation
That last part about who's fighting for the top spots got me thinking: damn, all the S1 DLC are high tier. Sorta crazy to think considering the states some of them launched in like Jack O and Testament.
pretty ironic that goldlewis players feel some type of way about being overwhelmed and cornered all the time...
HONESTLY
Lol the hotashi bit at the end. He do be hating on nbnhmr's heart playstyle. And him against the world on that mu chart he made, he was pissed.
You should do more videos like this I really liked this one and I also learned some chipp counter play Erich is good because I really struggle against chips playing as ramathal
I’m a Chipp main that trains with a Nago/goldlewis main so getting hit and surviving is like a happy accident to me
To ensure the correct Behemoth Typhoon the key is to "gate" the stick 1/8 further than the BT motion you want and it will come out every time.
5:23 Did Sajam just summon goldlewis 2p anti-air in attack position??
I wonder if Hotashi also felt like Elphelt wasn't that great and she needed some tweaks too. I wonder how the community would think about that.
I can't help but see Elphelt's c.S when I see Hotashi play Nago.
glad you stressed how defensive options are not equally good across matchups, that is honestly by far the thing that makes the chipp matchup the hardest even though the neutral isn’t good. like you said, gio and millia can try the same strategy but it just isn’t nearly as threatening because the challenges are dramatically better. and even as chipp, 99% of them can’t play as cleanly as ty and end up taking way more risks especially on approach. it’s not like the matchup stays bad for lewis if the chipps play it super risky, at that point the big coffin small hp theorem applies
Lol at the person--people?--who tried to argue that it was favored for Goldlewis just because Chipp has less health in general. If that was the case, then basically every fighting game's character viability would be directly corrolated to character health. I must have missed all those _Street Fighter_ games were Gief was the best character and Akuma was always the worst.
How to win hard match ups: make as little mistakes as possible, push your advantage, lose because you’re playing a grappler.
It's wild because if GL is strong vs Chipp because he can 1 tap him, Pot must be 10-0 in every matchup aside from Nago. Just because the MU's good doesn't mean there's no lose condition whatsoever...
You don’t understand streamer, if my friend is better at the game than me, the matchup vs their character is unwinnable and my character is bottom 1
I have that shit happen to me all the time, and it's good to have it explained, I play illaoi top, and have trouble fighting sett, when I heard illaoi apparently gigawrecks sett I really couldn't understand it, sometimes just having a better player explain the matchup can help a lot
I guess the Chipp players are forgetting Chipp Favored means he should win most of the time and not every single time. I for one am glad Goldlewis isn't THAT bad.
I'm a filthy casual but I played fighting games my entire life and I'm older than 30. On release, I was getting grilled constantly when I said Nago was an insanely good character. When GL became available, even on day one I thought he was not a bad character by any measure. Again, just got destroyed over it. I understand the characters (every one) is different than they were with vanilla. I'm surprised by how fast the FGC is to make a judgement based on their first impressions of a "bad" character. I even remember when people were saying Chipp sucked. Oh how the turn tables.
Hard matchup is when you can't EX when she press
why was goldlewis schmoovin at 4:45
there is no worse feeling in the world than playing honda against a dj in st. -1-11 matchup right there
I want drone to move in a triangular wave
I want every behemoth to be an unblockable
"Just look at the screen"
Bro i 100% agree with Sajam at the end. Nago players coping mad hard if they dont think their char is at least top 3
the only two others that I would consider Nago warcrime level are HC and MAYBE Ram
Ram is particularly annoying to me. Idk, I legit just hate Ram and have hated her since the game came out. It astounds me that I legit cannot use Elk Hunt against Ram or I will explode, because you cannot low profile her sword normals. Her buttons cause matchups that should be even to be incredibly lopsided in her favor, it legit irks the shit out of me. Nago has a similar issue with 5HS but at least he can be low profiled, just not by everyone. However the existence of 2S kinda makes low profiling a risky option anyway.
She's taken the place of Gio as the character you pick if you want no losing matchups but you don't want to learn how to play Happy Chaos.
@@servebotfrank4082 The only reason I would consider ram MAYBE not as bad as Nago is because at least if ram whiffs Sword Toss she becomes less of a problem (albeit not for that long)
Where as nago can whiff special moves like crazy and be rewarded for higher damage
@@own492 Granted no competent Ram is going to be whiffing Sword Toss. No one uses it unless you are in the corner and they know it will hit you.
@@servebotfrank4082 yeah its def much more of a non/semi-competent ram thing
Them perfect rams will literally just never be off offense
i have cerebral palsy and i run into a lot of good players in celestial as axl. instead of complaining about millia and chipp and ramlethal i try to see what i did wrong and what i could've done to win games i lost. axl by nature is a character that can explode even in good matchups so there isn't really any good to come out of me blaming other characters for my losses. i already have severe internalized ableism so i try to think as positively as possible
I feel like people also need to keep in mind the game itself when they talk about matchups. Chipp beats GL, but it's still Strive. It's a very volatile game, and GL making Chipp's life bar explode isn't even particularly unique. It's just a visceral experience when it happens so people get really fixated on it.
Your argument was well structured, but pixie players are just scared. Always are.
Not as much as jam players
I think personally ArcSys should include in the new patch a notice stating that Hotashi is officially better than NBHMR
That seems like a sound strat for Giovanna too. Would Gio vs. Gold be different? It's a MU I struggle with, I just swap to Sin lol.
Yeah. Fundamentally Gio approaches the matchup more or less exactly the same. She doesn't have a meterless reversal to challenge on defense like chipp can. But instead she can dp on reaction to Goldlewis jumping or being in the air and completely shut those options down
can you talk about may? it's hard to find information about may tbh. it's there but like 2 people play may it feels like.
6:16 RPS
Rock
Paper
Scissors
OR
Read Punish Strategy
The Chipp GL match up was something at first I hated, got 30-3 by a celestial GL in the park. And then I just took my foot off the gas, lol and wiff punished GL to death. Also the Zato MU does feel Chipp favored, dash up 2D is great against Zato 6P, and you run up and react to oppose with throw in neutral (to name a couple). Chipp players bitch about GL because they're focused so hard on the small damage mix, than the safe recka reack super plus safe jumps and wiff punishing.
chipp players are smoking that moon juice
sajam - chat is a 4 - 6 at best
I believe it's harder for pot too
I'm bad at the match up not my character
Neutral? I just fly in and mix
As a chip player, yeah we don’t know why it works but funny sushi man is good and dies fast so we play
honestly the chipp, baiken, and gold lewis power level seems right. the top three are jsut bonkers broken and the rest dont have clear points of advantage. honestly I just want 2k, 5k into 5h for gio and an invincible dp. like for fs sake how does leo get a flash kick but gio gets un invincible dp. smh to tell early to truly tell but i would love a useable f.s and back dash for sin, maybe make beak not have a joke hurtbox.
The top three characters are not that far ahead of the rest of the cast. Doesn't matter if you are playing the best character or the worst, if a goldlewis corners you, you are dying.
Also those gio changes are crack induced my man. Leo gets a dp because he's always had one. Gio's dp is not meant to be a true reversal. It's designed to be like that.
@@thestanman1486 2k/5k into 5h and a real dp are crack induced? alright dude lol. secondly any character is godlike if you make all the right reads. the top three dont have to make those reads to be godlike, their pressure is safe with god mix. A character always having had something is just about stupidest rational for something to continue to exist. He's allowed to have tools that new characters can not because he's always had them? How does this make sense? new characters need to be brought to the same level if legacy characters are going to keep their busted tool kits, and gio is nowhere near leos power level, give her an unreactable cross up into 50% and a command grab and you begin to get Leos power.
@@radfield6089 as a gio player I have to agree with him. 5k is already super good in neutral, pressure, and if you get a stray hit you can get a guaranteed safejump. Plus she gets so much off of 5k counterhit in the corner already. her "dp" being just a giant 6p with huge meterless damage on counterhit is fine with me, she doesnt need super good defensive moves because her offense is already kinda nutty.
I think giovanna is at a good middle ground in terms of balance.
@@hmad898 Her offense beats people who dont know how to deal with it and yes 5k is good however outside of a safejump, pretty common among the cast, and outside a situational combo in the corner she doesnt get much. all 5h would give her is a real follow up to 5k that doesnt whiff and would actually enforce her already mediocre offense. There is a reason every gio does 2k, 5k into super kick, every other option can be beat or has a gap. Just because something is good doesnt mean it shouldnt be better. 5k is her whole game and its worse than multiple other characters in terms of reward and utility. TLDR she may get good things off 5k but this doesnt make up for her extreme lack of options and real offense when compared to the strong characters in the game.
@@radfield6089 it beats everyone if you're simply better than them.
I guess its situational, but its up to you to create those situations so that you have an advantage. close S dash close S mind games into 5k/grab pressure is really strong.
She can do 6p like every character and 2d on counter hit, which you get a lot of with 5k if you are using it right. She doesn't need it to chain into 5h. That wouldnt do anything besides improve her damage very slightly.
Her offense isn't mediocre, simply be better. She has a lot of strong options and some of the best footsies and whiff punish potential in the game.
Obviously it isn't as good as the top tier characters offense, its why I said she is at a good middle ground. but it's definitely up there.
"strike/throw is a weak tactic".
umm hii sajam hi haii :3 ^0^ can i ask a qestion? Thanks :D
Whos better, nbnhmr, hotashi, or darknecro? On nago
Hotashi is washed.
Daigo
@@SupermanSajam :( i really wish one day I will be taken seriously
@@SupermanSajam but you know I understand, you live hundreds of miles away from me, how could you possibly give a shit about Pepsi Man, the annoying commenter who sounds like a kid hopped up on some drug. Of course, I deserve nothing more than a troll answer.
But let me ask you this. Why do we fail (epically)?
To stand back up, and never be defeated. Please, sajam, all I ask is a serious answer.
all i hear is theory but do you play the character? go on and play him you say we dont know him so please go play Chipp show us how easy it is. We muss guess 10 times correct and we still dont win. We guess 1 wrong we die. But i wait to see your experiance Chipp . pfff
Your character is designed to win neutral and snowball out of control. The price to pay for these powerful tools is always gonna be less room for error before getting duffed. You can't have both things.
smartest chipp player
first
🤓
😐
Anji can delete zato in 1 hit so obviously the mu is anji favored :)
Sajam gets saltier and saltier every year