Listening with a long screwdriver is how I check bearings on water pumps, alternators, listen to fuel pumps etc. Learned it from my grandfather. You would be amazed at what you can diagnose with an extra long screwdriver pressed to your head right in front of your ear. At the shop I worked in one of the techs was trying to diagnose an overheating issue. I listened to the water pump and told him the pump was getting ready to go out and it could be an intermittent cause. As I was the "new guy" he told me I was full of it. I told him out would be back within a month for a water pump. Sure enough it was. Another instance was the head mechanic telling me I left something loose in the rear end after a custom suspension install. This was after I asked if the car came in with the brake chatter I was hearing on a test drive. While the head mechanic was walking around grumbling about my "incompetence" and that it wasn't the brakes, I removed the wheel on the noisy corner, pulled the caliper and headed the dry slide pins and reassembled it. Noise gone, brakes good and suspension was tight like I knew it was. Problem solved. No apologies from the head mechanic though. I'm a Tech that informes the customer of other things noticed that will need to be replaced and what's immediately necessary and what isn't. Neither the shop owner or head mechanic would do that saying the customer wasn't paying to have those things checked and would never say anything. I let the customer decide what they can afford to have done. Sometimes they have the additional repairs done right then and sometimes they don't but at least I informed them of what to expect and approximate timeframes. I couldn't in good conscience let a customer leave without being informed. Needless to say I'm looking for work because of our differing opinions of what was the right thing to do.
I have spent the last week viewing videos and reading about ring and pinion jobs. You guys ROCK! (now that’s coming from a 64 year old retired home builder) Clear, concise, easy to understand and a benefit to the community. Well done gentleman. 😊
We like this guy! Seriously though, we always feel like we're tripping over our words. Too many can be confusing, and too few can be too obscure. Have fun, and we hope to be retired home builders like you someday!
I rebuilt my rear end a grassy field in a campground. This was my 2nd attempt at it. I used this video repeatedly for the important info to finally get a good pattern. I think I actually got it all correct this time. Thanks!
Wow, very good. We had planned on doing a ground level build axle assembly using as much common basic hand tools as possible, but circumstance has never given us the time to do something like that properly. Glad it helped, enjoy!
I like the tip about setting pinion depth prior to crushing the sleeve. As a flat rate dealer technician, most of the differential work I do is simply replacing carrier and pinion bearings, so the only adjustment I have to make is pinion preload. I currently have a car in my bay for bearings and in the course of this repair, it's became obvious that someone has been in here before and he didn't know what he was doing - the pinion preload was way too loose, backlash was off and pinion depth is wrong. I've got it torn back apart, so tomorrow morning, I'm going to adjust pinion depth and use your tip (leave the crush sleeve out to check the pattern) to get that dialed in. Thanks for the video!
My rule of thumb on most gm rear differentials if the pinion shim seems to be off I always start between 28 and 32 thousands and you will get a good idea of where to go
Thanks for the very kind and encouraging words. It's a hard to balance between trying to relay the necessary technical information while trying to keep it simple enough for anyone to follow along with. We look forward to making some more of these types of videos when we can make the time for them.
For those who come along, when they use the confusing jargon 'high' they mean shallow. 'Low' means deep. Deep means the pinion is too far in toward the gear set, which is too far to the rear in a rear differential. Shallow is opposite, the pinion is not deep enough. When they are talking about hamburger buns, they are referring to the pictures at 1:22, the dark imprint. The drive side of the ring gear is always the convex side, the coast side is concave. There is an optical illusion to the two photos after 3:41, making the drive side look like the coast side, and vice versa. They are describing it correctly and the photos are correctly labeled, but the optical illusion is confusing. The deeper grooves are painted bright yellow in focus, the unpainted edge of the gear that is out of focus is closer to the camera.
Thank the internet gods for true and well-intentioned constructive criticism, a dying art. We spend a lot of time trying to hit a balance of technical and casual dialog and descriptions. Feedback like this helps us to get better with future projects, thanks!
@@rearwheelperformance Thank you for understanding my intention. I found this very useful, I watched it three times and each time got more out of it. I even now understand the high and low terms, which refer to the relative position of the imprint itself.
Different gear types read completely different from one to the other, dry 2 cut vs. 5 cut. Aftermarket, made in Korea vs. made in China. The gears he was setting up looked like "made in china" gears.
I made a comment but it evaporated! So, I'll repeat it here. Since I don't have a lift and I'm in my late seventies, I decided that trying to pound the the pinion gear outer bearing races into their recesses was a no-go. I used the old pinion shaft with the old bearings (honed out for easy removal) as an installation tool. I found a couple of old used shop bearings to act as spacers (large enough to clear the shaft splines) and used my impact wrench to draw the races toward one another (do not try to use the u-joint yoke). Checking the races periodically for alignment, it worked like a champ with no issues at all.
We keep saying we're going to try to mock-up a race installer kit with pucks and a center screw for years, but as long as we can swing hammers without breaking bones, I guess we're stuck, lol. Since someone has mentioned it now, I think it's time to try it!
I'm currently doing a pinion replacement and have been looking at a bit of information regarding contact patches. I'm expecting the stock pinion shim to be fine but I only have one weekend to do the replacement so I'm preparing for the unexpected, I guess. It seems like the most important factor is the pinion depth. If the backlash is set within spec, it should be decent at minimum. If not, I may have other problems. I'll report back. Thanks dudes.
Sounds like you've got the right idea; focus on the pinion depth! If you have to set the pattern a few times (and you probably will), we'd suggest use different colored marking compound each round to help make the differences in pattern stand out. If you don't have multiple compounds then skip a few notches to some fresh teeth for each pattern to make it clearly readable. At the end of the day, if you're still having trouble deciding which looks best, fallback onto your other senses. A good pattern (even if you can't see it) feels smooth and steady as the gears rotate. Best of luck mate! Looking forward to hear how your project goes.
@@halleffect1 Sorry missed this. You can adjust backlash within spec to try to move it. Sounds like you were at min backlash spec and likely shimming for a bit more backlash may have helped. Tell us how it all ended up!
@@rearwheelperformance thanks for that. backlash is at 0.010. I thinned out the paint with gear oil and got a better pattern, contact along most of the gear, not just the toe/heel. so it was right all along but i couldn't see it. confirmed it was fixed with test drive and no more howling.
I'm doing a ARB install with new gears and new bearings. My backlash is perfect and I've almost got the pinion depth right where I want it. Its still a little deep. But still have a sharp line deep in the valleys. Smooth spinning and no noise.
Patterns should have a feathered edge all around the edges. A visibly hard edge line is where the pinion teeth will have the most pressure. If it were us, we'd probably back it off a couple of thousandths and recheck one last time.
@@rearwheelperformance So I've got my pinion depth right where I want it. But even opening the backlash to 9 "Yukon recommends 6-10" I cant completely get rid of that sharp line. Tt 9 the sides are nice and feathered but right in the center portion its still a sharp line. Not sure if I cant hit 10 right on the nose. I'm wondering if its just because its all new parts and they need to brake in?
@@baja5000 We need to see what the pattern looks like. If you got time, call the tech line next week, especially if you aren't completely satisfied with what it looks like - 877-910-2244
Will say this does help out my problem is new gear set and the markings dont tell me much for shimming so im trying the factory shim and my pattern looks good on one side then to much on the toe. Make 2 mock up bearings so no more press on and off the linion until final
Once an installer shifts to using mostly the root and tip to focus the pattern, then the heel and toe isn't as critical in most cases. If if turns silky smooth on both sides by hand, it should be quiet in operation. Good luck!
A good practice is to ream out the old pinion bearing (if it's in decent condition) inner race so it slides on and off the pinion and use it as a test bearing to set your pattern.
I have been setting up differentials for over thirty years, mostly Dana's and GM. I did a Ford 9 inch a couple of months ago and it was easy. My Jeep has Currie hi pinion 9 inch diffs front and rear. They use Ford 8.8 gears sets and when I figured out the rear axle was making gear noise louder than the mud tires I decided it was time for a re-gear. The pattern on the old gears was a good pattern, the bearings were perfect, but there was a high pitched whine. It could have had something to do with the fact that only 75/90 oil had been used by the previous owner and it should have been 85/140 according to Currie. I tore into this 8.8 and it gave me fits! If I fully tightened the bearing caps to anything over 10 ft lbs the side adjusters can't be moved. I would get the backlash set to where I wanted it to around .008 and when I torqued the bearing caps it changed! I was pretty happy with the pinion depth, just fought the backlash. Finally got it where I wanted it and being a high pinion in the rear I was more focused on the coast side of the tooth. I got a pretty centered pattern on the coast, but the drive side was biased towards the toe and I couldn't help but wonder if I should have moved the pinion a little closer to the ring gear. I went ahead and ran what I had and the gears are quiet. There really isn't any info out there about running a high pinion in the rear where you are running on the coast side of the gear. Any thoughts?
Late reply, sorry. That high pinion conversion rear turns everything on it's head. It is purely a trade-off of added driveline clearance vs a reduction in strength and wear. We're not sure their intent ever was to have these used for daily drivers on the street, and when they are, the owners should be aware that they will likely see higher noise and wear vs a standard 9".
@@rearwheelperformance I agree, my Jeep had probably 120k on the rear gears and I believe the previous owner ran 75/90 synthetic oil which is lacking in film strength for a pinion that isn’t submerged in oil. I debated switching my front and rear drop outs because the front would have very little wear on the coast side of the ring gear, but that still wouldn’t guarantee a quiet gear set , so I opted for new gears that should last me a long time since I don’t put many highway miles on this Jeep.
I watched a 100 videos on JK D44 regearing and this is good and to the point video. Every single video always shows the perfect center placement (heel to toe) and it would be nice if someone would cover a good face pattern, but explain/show why the pattern moves the way they do from heel to toe and how to get it centered (is it possible or even needed? I read it don't matter). I just did my D44 with 4.88s and I had to do 6 different pinion depth set ups each with probably 3 backlash adj. My final back lash was .008" and my first pattern was dead center of the face, Heel to Toe, but the pattern was just too shallow as it was rolling off the top. My subsequent and final 6th pinion depth adjustments brought the pattern more center (Face & root) but it also made the drive pattern go towards the toe. The Coast pattern stayed more center of the face but toward the heel. It was my 3rd regear ever, and the other 2 have been good for years.. gotta start someplace.
One can reference a hundred different bit of advise and pattern guides, but more importantly, persistence and patience provides the best results (as you did). Good to hear, and enjoy!
Good video I have been doing my setup on my differentials this way for 30 years and it’s not let me down yet although I have got a few bad gear sets over the years but not many this was a very informative video thanks !!
Good video. I finally get it and you guys confirmed what I thought, that if backlash is correct then the gear pattern is probably going to be very good or close to it.
There are a lot of different slang and technical names that are referred to for each item and process that we try to reduce to the most common names. Hope it helped.
Putting a Locker 9.75 34s in my18 f150, came with Super 8.8 3:15 open. My STX 2.7/10 sp auto should wake up with 3:73 gears, I mostly bracket race 1/8 miles and was going to run a 12v switch to the plug for runs. My RWD did not come with a Locker. Goal of 600hp, any advise to NOT grenade the Diff? Flipped axle & running 245/45/17 M/T cheater slicks. 55k on unit but covers been off so I will pull it & replace with Spicer/Ford cover. GREAT Video & VERY Helpful.
We just did a '19 with the same joke of a S8.8 3.15 ratio. Went 4.56 with a modded TracLok since no one engineered anything better to work with c-clips. But, 9.75 is a proven tough model and should be fine with 600. Get in as much preload as you can fit on the side shims, and run the lowest side of backlash spec. Sounds fun!
The comment about overdrive side is little dependent on if towing heavy and using engine breaking as then it becomes really important. Many many many moons ago i was taught to think about it and remember by a little limerick, either draw a circle on the ground or pick the crownwheel laying on ground with teeth up, stand as if your foot represents a tooth with toes facing centre, and think of the tooth contact reading Limerick: if face or flank ( your face is high your flank like a horse - your butt- is low )move the crank ( pinion) if toe or heel move the wheel, if toe you go ( move the wheel away from the pinion ) All the while maintaining correct backlash also as you make these reading changes, Generally speaking if you are just changing out bearings from normal wear then as long as you use quality bearings ( same brand even better) with same part no,s ( for quite some time the variance between bearings of ssme specifications regardless of manufacturer has been so slight its impossible to see a difference with basic tooling etc when repairing) its just a 're-race' job and whatever shimming was used before 99.999% of time will be spot on for average do-it-yourself repairs ( if you know how to do it better and have more accurate tooling you probably shouldn't be watching this anyway) so buy the right bearings and reassemble with mixing things up and check first, some variations to patterns are acceptable if using worn gearset with new bearings, even most quality replacement gearsets of same ratio wont vary perceptibly mostly, then if your not happy with contact pattern got to limerick, if your doing this regularly or constantly for a living you probably dont even notice your brain doing this automatically but if you just a do-it-yourselfer or helping a buddy then just slowly think through it and refer to limerick and these days take plenty of before pics and during as then you have some references where you might have messed up
That is a lot and worth the read. Every experienced installer has their theories and experience, and as long as the installations are reliable and long-lasting they're all good. Thanks!
The zeros may be a reference to adjustment from the manufacturers nominal pinion depth. There are articles and charts to use for pinion shimming adjustment based off of the old and new gear sets, but the most basic principal is that a zero marked gear, should use the same pinion shim when replacing a zero marked gear. There can also be markings for recommended backlash and batch numbers used when manufacturing and packaging gearsets (to make sure same batch ring gears and pinion gears are matched up and boxed together.
Reading through the Yukon handbook says if keeping used gears, only focus on the coast side pattern. Granted, I am just replacing bearing/races and reusing pinion/carrier spacers, but could do you know why Yukon would state just to focus on the coast side? Good vid. Appreciate any input.
Haven't had much hands-on with used, but I imagine that the pattern is easier to match up with a the larger surface area. That is the ultimate goal is to have the 'new' pattern match the broken in contact area as closely as possible. It is often hard to even read a good used pattern when set up properly since the surface tension of the marking grease will smear so evenly, but you'll see it for sure if it is not correct. Have fun!
Thank you for making the video and replying to comments. I am doing a gear swap on a an aluminum Dana 44HD. I don't have a tool to pull the bearing back off the pinion and I think I need to add shim. What do you think about knocking the inner race out and shimming behind the race to move the pinion in?
It sounds like you are familiar with some of the differential models that are specifically designed to do that type of inner race shimming, and it should work if done properly. We do cover a couple of methods of removing pinion and carrier case bearings in another video: ruclips.net/video/n-RJRe6jacg/видео.html
@@rearwheelperformance Wow, I'm amazed you bother replying to everyone. Its rare and extremely appreciated. I went ahead and bought a clamshell bearing puller like you prefer in the video you linked. I have a press and a splitter, but what I have will not fit behind the head of the pinion. It would destroy the bearing for sure. Thanks again. You kick ass.
@@01Z06guy Hey, it's to mask the guilt that we're too busy in real life to make more videos right now! The least we can do is try to answer the people that take to time to comment. Thanks a ton!
Great video . What would cause arear end to make a whining noise when you let off the gas pedal but is quiet when you're accelerating? Vehicle uses a torque arm set up . Thanks in advance.
It could be multiple things, but when the drive side is quiet and the coast is a little noisy on a new gearset, it can be the gear finishing/machining. I've also had a few seasoned sets that would get noisy during deceleration when the pinion nut had started backing off or had a pinion bearing going bad. In any event it is worth the physical external and internal investigation to make sure it is safe and reliable.
I will be building a Dana 44 for my Duster to replace the 7-1/4 . What do you think of just shimming the spider gears a little more to have it act like a posi unit .
The added clutch action would likely be minimal. If it is a 30 axle spline D44 on a budget, we would look for a used traclok and probably spring for a new set of clutches.
The grace and the peace be with you all from the lord your God our father, his son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, thank you! That’s why this is the good news that the kingdom is about to begin and will not end it will be with justice and truth and the student is no more than the teacher but when he finishes his studies he will be the same as the teacher and may he continue to bless them and don’t be surprised by their teachings amen! Mark 1:14-15 7:10-20-23 8:2-3 10:18-19-21-43-45 16:4-6-8-11-13-15-16-19 Luke 6:40-42-44-46-48 8:5-10-21 10:25-27-37 11:2-4-9-12-17-20 12:56-57-58-59 13:23-24-29-34
If you install the pinion without the crush sleeve… how are you supposed to know if the pinion is sitting in the correct spot when your installing the carrier to set backlash. I get that you do it to save having to replace crush sleeves if you need to add more shims behind the pinion bearing. I just don’t understand how it works without something there? I was told to use the old crush sleeve (if useable) as a template. Then set backlash. Then replace old crush sleeve with a new one and tighten pinion nut to manufacture specs.
The crush sleeve does not affect pinion depth. It only serves to help set pre-load at the outer tail bearing. Depending on the axle model, pre-load shims or crush sleeves are only required during final assembly, after the pattern has been set properly.
@@rearwheelperformance that makes sense hearing that. Thanks! Your videos were perfect I look forward to doing my gear/posi install on my 64’ C10 very soon! Cheers
@@rearwheelperformance one last question. I am planing to do my install Thursday so I am just running the whole procedure in my head, and my last question is… can I install the pinion/crush sleeve and set pre-load to 25 inch lbs on the pinion yoke first, before even setting the carrier into the housing?
Set it up initially as closely as possible using the previous/original pinion shim or a setup depth checking tool, then check the contact pattern to determine if it requires additional adjustment to make it good.
Thanks for the reply. I’ll be doing my first gear swap as soon as I get the parts I ordered. Great video btw. I’ll be checking it out a couple more times probably.
I bought a 8.8 to put in my falcon and decided to check backlash and it has .014. Should I try and tighten it up or since it’s a used rear end just run with it? Are the shims that are in it thin enough to move around to get it to the .008-.012 spec for a rebuilt ring and pinion. I feel if I try and tighten it up I will be chasing my tail. What are your thoughts. Thanks and great video
You probably would get away with it, but for how simple it really is we would re-shim for better backlash. Even if breaks in ok and runs quiet, it is our opinion that more backlash allows more movement in the entire driveline. Think of it like a hammer swing - you can do a lot more damage with a 14" swing vs 8" swing - using an analogy here :)
Can you share any tips for what pattern to look for when installing used gears, most of what I’ve read is to only look at the pattern on the coast side.
Used gears have already worn in a flat pattern on the drive side. It is the entire side of the face of the drive side ring gear teeth. Marking to read a perfect pattern is difficult since the surface tension of marking compound won't allow the ring and pinion teeth to "wipe away" to reveal. Bad patterns will be obvious, with defined high or low markings. Again, a good pattern will likely just look like smooth marking compound without much, if any, dark pattern.
I'm replacing the differential bearings of my C1500 4.3L RWD long bed pickup truck and the carrier side bearing DON"T have any shims! how can I make any adjustments if there is not room to put shims? Any help would be appreciated. Thankyou
Sounds like it should be a common 10 bolt 8.5/8.6 model rear depending on the year, which all use side shims for backlash. Contact the tech line and have some pics ready to share with them to review: 877-910-2244 8a-4p Central M-F
If you want to see more of this bearing puller in action, check out our video highlighting the strengths of this tool over the conventional splitters in "Differential Bearing Puller vs Pinion Bearing Splitter: What's the Difference?"
Torque the pinion nut in increasingly smaller steps, checking frequently, when the bearing preload (rotational drag) is getting close to specifications. Stop adding additional pinion nut torque once the bearing preload (drag) is anywhere within the specification range.
First of all your not measuring torque ,your are measuring preload ,On a 12 bolt GM you need some where between 400 and 600 ftlbs to start crushing the collar , you have to 'creep' up to the desired preload ,which is measured in Inch-Lbs usually 10 to 15 in-lbs of preload . Ive built over 500 12 bolts and the only impact that seems powerful enough to crush the 12 bolt is the M-18 Milwaukee , the M-18 is the best battery powered impact to use ,don't waste you money on other name brands that I won't mention ,8.5 GM and 9 in and 8.8 Ford crush fairly easy ,12 bolt and corvette 65-79 are tough to crush , have recently run into some aftermarket crush collars that refuse to crush , stick with OEM or Rateck
I know this is a late comment, but I need a bit of clarification. You are saying to crush the sleeve AFTER setting pinion depth and backlash? I don't see a problem with this other than getting an accurate pinion preload reading, since it is in inch-pounds. How do you accomplish this is you are dragging the ring gear along for the ride?
Not at all. The crush sleeve is only required upon final assembly as it has no effect on the pattern setting process. Pinion pre-load is checked before the case/ring is put into the housing. You never know if your going to need adjustments for the pattern, until the pattern is checked. Of course, you are free to use a crush sleeve for every pattern check, but you will need to have extra sleeves and it will add a bit of time to the overall installation/setup process. That is, unless you get lucky with a perfect pattern on the first try ;)
I have a wolseley 1500 or morris minor diff broken off a pinion gear tooth diff still working do I need to replace crown and pinion wheel as a set and what is the correct t pattern on the crown gear?
So you say don’t use a crush leave when you’re setting up your opinion and up for the first time but don’t you need to have one in there, maybe the old one?
They are only necessary during the final assembly when the contact pattern has been checked and set properly. It would serve no purpose during the setup and checking process.
At 4:25 what is it exactly that is causing the noise? Backlash or pinion depth? I’m doing my 8.8 I had and when I’m spec of backlash I still hear that noise. Any help is appreciated, thanks guys!
Assuming the backlash is set within the gear manufacturer's specifications, that sound you referenced will always be pinion depth. As bad as we were able to sample for the video, the pattern would be pretty terrible also.
I’m shocked that non of mechanics in 13 shops know how to fix the slip differential. My 3 different cars have a huge problem when going and rear end whips around like being on ice Even dodge dealers have no idea Please help me
is it normal for a rear that i just got done rebuilding to run hot to the touch? i only put about 5 miles on it and got under it to see if every thing was good or not leaking, i put my hand on the pumkin and it was almost to hot to touch. i didn't smell any hot oil or see any oil leaks and i have the right kind of oil and amount in it?
Absolutely they will run hotter than normal during break-in, and especially so on that first drive (why most installers want the first one or two break-in drives and heat cycles before handing it back to the vehicle owner). The tooth surfaces on most new gears are rough and need to wear in slowly to smooth out. Most manufacturers will advise a specific break-in cycle, and then a gear oil change at a few hundred miles to get rid of all the particulates that are shed during the break in process.
If there are pinion depth markings etched or stamped in the new gear set you may be able. Have your installer contact our tech line at 877-910-2244 M-F 8a-4p (Central Time)
New gears and bearings. Pinion preload was perfect, Backlash perfect, contact patterns perfect in 3 places. On test drive there is high pitched whine coasting. Pulled everything apart, patern couldn't be more perfect. What gives???
It happens. This is why we've been big on trying to add an audible check in addition to the tooth contact pattern check during that phase if installation. Rotating the assembly by hand during the gear pattern check, it needs to sound and feel silky smooth, and if there is any amount of tooth mesh feel or sound during that phase, it will definitely turn into a whine during road driving. We've sacrificed contact patterns for feel/sound for critical drivers, and we've sacrificed a bit of coast whine to assure that the drive side had the broadest contact for strength for performance applications. The good thing is, that a unusually noisy gear can be re-shimmed to try to reduce it, but only if had a very short initial drive. A broken-in noisy gearset will never be able to be shimmed quieter again.
@rearwheelperformance i drove 19 miles. I am assuming you would shim pinion away from ring gear. The noise isn't too bad, i can live with it, but just makes me think something isn't right.
@@redrustyhill2 Without a visual of the original pattern we could only guess what may have helped, but in our experience, once driven more than a few miles it will not be able to re-shim any quieter (or worse). Some installers rule of thumb is it should be ok if it is quieter than the other noises from the transmission whir, tires, etc.
When adjusting backlash on a 8.8 I heard that moving a .010 shim from one side to the other yields a .007 change in backlash? Just curious so I have a idea of how much shim to move to cut my .014 BL in half. Thanks!
Seems about right, its seems to average about 70-90% of the backlash adjustment. We'd probably adjust about .008" on the sides. Very nice you want to get it on the low side of backlash, always a winner move!
Tell this to the original equipment manufacturers (i.e.,AAM, Spicer, ZF, etc.) that have eliminated most preload shimmed models. They're not bad or outdated, just different. Preload shimmed and solid spacers styles are great for those who need and know how to use them effectively. If you want others to benefit from comments, It's much more productive to state the comment subject, then elaborate a bit on experience of how and why, otherwise it just looks a little snarky to everyone reading. We can all do better.
No! This is misleading Sorry but it’s true. You cannot just focus on pinion high , pinion low , pinion centered, The pattern could be centered but be at the toe. That’s not good but the video didn’t explain that and if you just focus on the fact that it’s centered your in for trouble. Backlash could be correct, pattern could be centered but pattern is at toe.! Not good Video needs work
Awesome, explain how you think is the best way to center a slight heel/toe pattern, when the backlash is already in spec and the pattern in centered root to tip. If you want to critique a technique, fine, but if you really want to help people, you should also explain what you believe is the correct method. Just saying 'no' isn't helpful to anyone.
As a general rule, more teeth helps with more tooth contact area. We have yet to hear or see anything different, but I'm sure that a mechanical engineer may have a more knowledgeable answer based on facts if they can add to this.
There shouldn't be any moderate or substantial gear noise at any speed. We know of some installations that had a low-but-reasonably-acceptable amount of noise that never wore out over many miles and years, but trying for installations with as absolutely as little as possible is the goal.
@@rearwheelperformance yeah this is at 53-56 when your foot is barley on the gas cruising it sings then goes away as you move past 56mph or you go below 53mph it goes away. Never didn’t it with factory gears ⚙️
@@RCCRAZYSTUPID Sounds like a driveline harmonic that comes and goes only at certain speeds, and it will likely come back more intense at double the speed you are hearing it now. Machining and pattern issues will more commonly be heard at all speeds, becoming more pronounced as speeds increase. It won't go away, but if it is at a speed that is driving you nuts, you can have a driveline company add a harmonic damper to your driveshaft that can help a lot, or swap to a different ratio or tooth count. This is probably the hardest issue to diagnose and fix, and worthy of it's own video soon.
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Listening with a long screwdriver is how I check bearings on water pumps, alternators, listen to fuel pumps etc. Learned it from my grandfather. You would be amazed at what you can diagnose with an extra long screwdriver pressed to your head right in front of your ear. At the shop I worked in one of the techs was trying to diagnose an overheating issue. I listened to the water pump and told him the pump was getting ready to go out and it could be an intermittent cause. As I was the "new guy" he told me I was full of it. I told him out would be back within a month for a water pump. Sure enough it was. Another instance was the head mechanic telling me I left something loose in the rear end after a custom suspension install.
This was after I asked if the car came in with the brake chatter I was hearing on a test drive. While the head mechanic was walking around grumbling about my "incompetence" and that it wasn't the brakes, I removed the wheel on the noisy corner, pulled the caliper and headed the dry slide pins and reassembled it. Noise gone, brakes good and suspension was tight like I knew it was. Problem solved. No apologies from the head mechanic though.
I'm a Tech that informes the customer of other things noticed that will need to be replaced and what's immediately necessary and what isn't. Neither the shop owner or head mechanic would do that saying the customer wasn't paying to have those things checked and would never say anything. I let the customer decide what they can afford to have done. Sometimes they have the additional repairs done right then and sometimes they don't but at least I informed them of what to expect and approximate timeframes. I couldn't in good conscience let a customer leave without being informed. Needless to say I'm looking for work because of our differing opinions of what was the right thing to do.
Very good! Maybe it's time to take that next step...
Sounds like that shop needs a new service writer
I have spent the last week viewing videos and reading about ring and pinion jobs. You guys ROCK! (now that’s coming from a 64 year old retired home builder)
Clear, concise, easy to understand and a benefit to the community. Well done gentleman. 😊
We like this guy! Seriously though, we always feel like we're tripping over our words. Too many can be confusing, and too few can be too obscure. Have fun, and we hope to be retired home builders like you someday!
I rebuilt my rear end a grassy field in a campground. This was my 2nd attempt at it. I used this video repeatedly for the important info to finally get a good pattern. I think I actually got it all correct this time. Thanks!
Wow, very good. We had planned on doing a ground level build axle assembly using as much common basic hand tools as possible, but circumstance has never given us the time to do something like that properly. Glad it helped, enjoy!
I like the tip about setting pinion depth prior to crushing the sleeve. As a flat rate dealer technician, most of the differential work I do is simply replacing carrier and pinion bearings, so the only adjustment I have to make is pinion preload. I currently have a car in my bay for bearings and in the course of this repair, it's became obvious that someone has been in here before and he didn't know what he was doing - the pinion preload was way too loose, backlash was off and pinion depth is wrong. I've got it torn back apart, so tomorrow morning, I'm going to adjust pinion depth and use your tip (leave the crush sleeve out to check the pattern) to get that dialed in. Thanks for the video!
Knowing that something we have recorded makes even a single installation more efficient makes it all worth it. Wrench well!
My rule of thumb on most gm rear differentials if the pinion shim seems to be off I always start between 28 and 32 thousands and you will get a good idea of where to go
Perfect Instruction!
I work in the axle manufacturing sector for the past 30 years and this is the best explanation of patterns I have seen yet!
Thanks for the very kind and encouraging words. It's a hard to balance between trying to relay the necessary technical information while trying to keep it simple enough for anyone to follow along with. We look forward to making some more of these types of videos when we can make the time for them.
For those who come along, when they use the confusing jargon 'high' they mean shallow. 'Low' means deep. Deep means the pinion is too far in toward the gear set, which is too far to the rear in a rear differential. Shallow is opposite, the pinion is not deep enough. When they are talking about hamburger buns, they are referring to the pictures at 1:22, the dark imprint. The drive side of the ring gear is always the convex side, the coast side is concave. There is an optical illusion to the two photos after 3:41, making the drive side look like the coast side, and vice versa. They are describing it correctly and the photos are correctly labeled, but the optical illusion is confusing. The deeper grooves are painted bright yellow in focus, the unpainted edge of the gear that is out of focus is closer to the camera.
Thank the internet gods for true and well-intentioned constructive criticism, a dying art. We spend a lot of time trying to hit a balance of technical and casual dialog and descriptions. Feedback like this helps us to get better with future projects, thanks!
@@rearwheelperformance Thank you for understanding my intention. I found this very useful, I watched it three times and each time got more out of it. I even now understand the high and low terms, which refer to the relative position of the imprint itself.
Different gear types read completely different from one to the other, dry 2 cut vs. 5 cut. Aftermarket, made in Korea vs. made in China. The gears he was setting up looked like "made in china" gears.
Hi, y'all. Charlie Gilliland here. Coming to you from South Bay Truck & 4X4 in Hawthorne CA.
Hi Charlie, that shop has been around since forever! Glad to see it still kicking and in the family. Erick says hi, and feel free to call any time.
God dam this is the best video ive ever seen on the diffs, and its shorter and way more fun to watch then every other video online
Thanks a lot! We're working on different formats trying to keep it lighthearted and no so serious.
I made a comment but it evaporated! So, I'll repeat it here. Since I don't have a lift and I'm in my late seventies, I decided that trying to pound the the pinion gear outer bearing races into their recesses was a no-go. I used the old pinion shaft with the old bearings (honed out for easy removal) as an installation tool. I found a couple of old used shop bearings to act as spacers (large enough to clear the shaft splines) and used my impact wrench to draw the races toward one another (do not try to use the u-joint yoke). Checking the races periodically for alignment, it worked like a champ with no issues at all.
We keep saying we're going to try to mock-up a race installer kit with pucks and a center screw for years, but as long as we can swing hammers without breaking bones, I guess we're stuck, lol. Since someone has mentioned it now, I think it's time to try it!
I'm currently doing a pinion replacement and have been looking at a bit of information regarding contact patches. I'm expecting the stock pinion shim to be fine but I only have one weekend to do the replacement so I'm preparing for the unexpected, I guess. It seems like the most important factor is the pinion depth. If the backlash is set within spec, it should be decent at minimum. If not, I may have other problems. I'll report back. Thanks dudes.
Sounds like you've got the right idea; focus on the pinion depth! If you have to set the pattern a few times (and you probably will), we'd suggest use different colored marking compound each round to help make the differences in pattern stand out. If you don't have multiple compounds then skip a few notches to some fresh teeth for each pattern to make it clearly readable. At the end of the day, if you're still having trouble deciding which looks best, fallback onto your other senses. A good pattern (even if you can't see it) feels smooth and steady as the gears rotate. Best of luck mate! Looking forward to hear how your project goes.
Really well done guys, thanks.
i thought my pattern was ok but now i know the pinion depth is wrong, you saved me a lot of frustration.
Real good, let us know how it works out!
@@rearwheelperformance got the pinion depth set, pattern is centered up/down but only a small contact patch on toe drive side and heel coast side.
@@halleffect1 Sorry missed this. You can adjust backlash within spec to try to move it. Sounds like you were at min backlash spec and likely shimming for a bit more backlash may have helped. Tell us how it all ended up!
@@rearwheelperformance thanks for that.
backlash is at 0.010. I thinned out the paint with gear oil and got a better pattern, contact along most of the gear, not just the toe/heel.
so it was right all along but i couldn't see it. confirmed it was fixed with test drive and no more howling.
@@halleffect1 Glad to hear!
I'm doing a ARB install with new gears and new bearings. My backlash is perfect and I've almost got the pinion depth right where I want it. Its still a little deep. But still have a sharp line deep in the valleys. Smooth spinning and no noise.
Patterns should have a feathered edge all around the edges. A visibly hard edge line is where the pinion teeth will have the most pressure. If it were us, we'd probably back it off a couple of thousandths and recheck one last time.
@@rearwheelperformance So I've got my pinion depth right where I want it. But even opening the backlash to 9 "Yukon recommends 6-10" I cant completely get rid of that sharp line. Tt 9 the sides are nice and feathered but right in the center portion its still a sharp line. Not sure if I cant hit 10 right on the nose. I'm wondering if its just because its all new parts and they need to brake in?
@@baja5000 We need to see what the pattern looks like. If you got time, call the tech line next week, especially if you aren't completely satisfied with what it looks like - 877-910-2244
Will say this does help out my problem is new gear set and the markings dont tell me much for shimming so im trying the factory shim and my pattern looks good on one side then to much on the toe. Make 2 mock up bearings so no more press on and off the linion until final
Once an installer shifts to using mostly the root and tip to focus the pattern, then the heel and toe isn't as critical in most cases. If if turns silky smooth on both sides by hand, it should be quiet in operation. Good luck!
A good practice is to ream out the old pinion bearing (if it's in decent condition) inner race so it slides on and off the pinion and use it as a test bearing to set your pattern.
For sure, setup bearings and setup races are a great addition to any drivetrain installer's tool arsenal. We have a drawer full of them!
Great info. Very helpful for my project in the coming weeks. Thanks !
Glad to hear, and thanks a lot!
Best explanation I have seen in setting pinion depth (reading patterns)👌👌👌👌👌
Thanks a lot!
I have been setting up differentials for over thirty years, mostly Dana's and GM. I did a Ford 9 inch a couple of months ago and it was easy. My Jeep has Currie hi pinion 9 inch diffs front and rear. They use Ford 8.8 gears sets and when I figured out the rear axle was making gear noise louder than the mud tires I decided it was time for a re-gear. The pattern on the old gears was a good pattern, the bearings were perfect, but there was a high pitched whine. It could have had something to do with the fact that only 75/90 oil had been used by the previous owner and it should have been 85/140 according to Currie. I tore into this 8.8 and it gave me fits! If I fully tightened the bearing caps to anything over 10 ft lbs the side adjusters can't be moved. I would get the backlash set to where I wanted it to around .008 and when I torqued the bearing caps it changed! I was pretty happy with the pinion depth, just fought the backlash. Finally got it where I wanted it and being a high pinion in the rear I was more focused on the coast side of the tooth. I got a pretty centered pattern on the coast, but the drive side was biased towards the toe and I couldn't help but wonder if I should have moved the pinion a little closer to the ring gear. I went ahead and ran what I had and the gears are quiet. There really isn't any info out there about running a high pinion in the rear where you are running on the coast side of the gear. Any thoughts?
Late reply, sorry. That high pinion conversion rear turns everything on it's head. It is purely a trade-off of added driveline clearance vs a reduction in strength and wear. We're not sure their intent ever was to have these used for daily drivers on the street, and when they are, the owners should be aware that they will likely see higher noise and wear vs a standard 9".
@@rearwheelperformance I agree, my Jeep had probably 120k on the rear gears and I believe the previous owner ran 75/90 synthetic oil which is lacking in film strength for a pinion that isn’t submerged in oil. I debated switching my front and rear drop outs because the front would have very little wear on the coast side of the ring gear, but that still wouldn’t guarantee a quiet gear set , so I opted for new gears that should last me a long time since I don’t put many highway miles on this Jeep.
@@davecamilleri9411 Sounds like a fun one! Keep up the good work!
I watched a 100 videos on JK D44 regearing and this is good and to the point video. Every single video always shows the perfect center placement (heel to toe) and it would be nice if someone would cover a good face pattern, but explain/show why the pattern moves the way they do from heel to toe and how to get it centered (is it possible or even needed? I read it don't matter). I just did my D44 with 4.88s and I had to do 6 different pinion depth set ups each with probably 3 backlash adj. My final back lash was .008" and my first pattern was dead center of the face, Heel to Toe, but the pattern was just too shallow as it was rolling off the top. My subsequent and final 6th pinion depth adjustments brought the pattern more center (Face & root) but it also made the drive pattern go towards the toe. The Coast pattern stayed more center of the face but toward the heel. It was my 3rd regear ever, and the other 2 have been good for years.. gotta start someplace.
One can reference a hundred different bit of advise and pattern guides, but more importantly, persistence and patience provides the best results (as you did). Good to hear, and enjoy!
Good video I have been doing my setup on my differentials this way for 30 years and it’s not let me down yet although I have got a few bad gear sets over the years but not many this was a very informative video thanks !!
Hey! Thanks a ton! We enjoyed making these and hope to get back to them soon as time and life permit.
Good video. I finally get it and you guys confirmed what I thought, that if backlash is correct then the gear pattern is probably going to be very good or close to it.
We think so. Having the backlash set properly first, leaves all the remaining focus on just the pinion depth adjustments if necessary. Thanks!
I primarily do Ford 8.8's using Ford Performance 2 cut gears and the patterns on those use up the whole tooth
Absolutely when they are setup properly. Thanks for the addition.
Terminology is another language thanks for sharing!!!
There are a lot of different slang and technical names that are referred to for each item and process that we try to reduce to the most common names. Hope it helped.
@@rearwheelperformance sure!!
Putting a Locker 9.75 34s in my18 f150, came with Super 8.8 3:15 open. My STX 2.7/10 sp auto should wake up with 3:73 gears, I mostly bracket race 1/8 miles and was going to run a 12v switch to the plug for runs. My RWD did not come with a Locker. Goal of 600hp, any advise to NOT grenade the Diff? Flipped axle & running 245/45/17 M/T cheater slicks. 55k on unit but covers been off so I will pull it & replace with Spicer/Ford cover. GREAT Video & VERY Helpful.
We just did a '19 with the same joke of a S8.8 3.15 ratio. Went 4.56 with a modded TracLok since no one engineered anything better to work with c-clips. But, 9.75 is a proven tough model and should be fine with 600. Get in as much preload as you can fit on the side shims, and run the lowest side of backlash spec. Sounds fun!
The comment about overdrive side is little dependent on if towing heavy and using engine breaking as then it becomes really important.
Many many many moons ago i was taught to think about it and remember by a little limerick, either draw a circle on the ground or pick the crownwheel laying on ground with teeth up, stand as if your foot represents a tooth with toes facing centre, and think of the tooth contact reading
Limerick: if face or flank ( your face is high your flank like a horse - your butt- is low )move the crank ( pinion) if toe or heel move the wheel, if toe you go ( move the wheel away from the pinion )
All the while maintaining correct backlash also as you make these reading changes,
Generally speaking if you are just changing out bearings from normal wear then as long as you use quality bearings ( same brand even better) with same part no,s ( for quite some time the variance between bearings of ssme specifications regardless of manufacturer has been so slight its impossible to see a difference with basic tooling etc when repairing) its just a 're-race' job and whatever shimming was used before 99.999% of time will be spot on for average do-it-yourself repairs ( if you know how to do it better and have more accurate tooling you probably shouldn't be watching this anyway) so buy the right bearings and reassemble with mixing things up and check first, some variations to patterns are acceptable if using worn gearset with new bearings, even most quality replacement gearsets of same ratio wont vary perceptibly mostly, then if your not happy with contact pattern got to limerick, if your doing this regularly or constantly for a living you probably dont even notice your brain doing this automatically but if you just a do-it-yourselfer or helping a buddy then just slowly think through it and refer to limerick and these days take plenty of before pics and during as then you have some references where you might have messed up
That is a lot and worth the read. Every experienced installer has their theories and experience, and as long as the installations are reliable and long-lasting they're all good. Thanks!
Any tips installing a BOP ring and pinion? 70 Firebird 3:73 Yukon Posi Yukon going in. Diff stock 2:73 215,000 miles coming out.
Thank you guys
Hi, i got a mag Crwon wherl set, only on pinion are markings of 0,0 and a second 0,22. what measure do i have to check?
The zeros may be a reference to adjustment from the manufacturers nominal pinion depth. There are articles and charts to use for pinion shimming adjustment based off of the old and new gear sets, but the most basic principal is that a zero marked gear, should use the same pinion shim when replacing a zero marked gear. There can also be markings for recommended backlash and batch numbers used when manufacturing and packaging gearsets (to make sure same batch ring gears and pinion gears are matched up and boxed together.
I sell used BMW differentials. This will help me diagnose their condition a lot better. Thanks!
Cheers to a great business, and we are glad when anything we put out helps anyone. Have fun!
Excellent video
Thanks, and glad to hear!
Love it!! Great JOB guys!!!
Thank you very much!
I’ve seen many 8.8 videos say that you must use the crush washer for preload of the pinion. Why do you believe that isn’t need until final assembly?
Reading through the Yukon handbook says if keeping used gears, only focus on the coast side pattern. Granted, I am just replacing bearing/races and reusing pinion/carrier spacers, but could do you know why Yukon would state just to focus on the coast side? Good vid. Appreciate any input.
Haven't had much hands-on with used, but I imagine that the pattern is easier to match up with a the larger surface area. That is the ultimate goal is to have the 'new' pattern match the broken in contact area as closely as possible. It is often hard to even read a good used pattern when set up properly since the surface tension of the marking grease will smear so evenly, but you'll see it for sure if it is not correct. Have fun!
Thank you for making the video and replying to comments. I am doing a gear swap on a an aluminum Dana 44HD. I don't have a tool to pull the bearing back off the pinion and I think I need to add shim. What do you think about knocking the inner race out and shimming behind the race to move the pinion in?
It sounds like you are familiar with some of the differential models that are specifically designed to do that type of inner race shimming, and it should work if done properly. We do cover a couple of methods of removing pinion and carrier case bearings in another video: ruclips.net/video/n-RJRe6jacg/видео.html
@@rearwheelperformance Wow, I'm amazed you bother replying to everyone. Its rare and extremely appreciated. I went ahead and bought a clamshell bearing puller like you prefer in the video you linked. I have a press and a splitter, but what I have will not fit behind the head of the pinion. It would destroy the bearing for sure. Thanks again. You kick ass.
@@01Z06guy Hey, it's to mask the guilt that we're too busy in real life to make more videos right now! The least we can do is try to answer the people that take to time to comment. Thanks a ton!
Great video . What would cause arear end to make a whining noise when you let off the gas pedal but is quiet when you're accelerating? Vehicle uses a torque arm set up . Thanks in advance.
It could be multiple things, but when the drive side is quiet and the coast is a little noisy on a new gearset, it can be the gear finishing/machining. I've also had a few seasoned sets that would get noisy during deceleration when the pinion nut had started backing off or had a pinion bearing going bad. In any event it is worth the physical external and internal investigation to make sure it is safe and reliable.
does backlash move your pattern from toe to heal and vise versa
I will be building a Dana 44 for my Duster to replace the 7-1/4 . What do you think of just shimming the spider gears a little more to have it act like a posi unit .
The added clutch action would likely be minimal. If it is a 30 axle spline D44 on a budget, we would look for a used traclok and probably spring for a new set of clutches.
The grace and the peace be with you all from the lord your God our father, his son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, thank you! That’s why this is the good news that the kingdom is about to begin and will not end it will be with justice and truth and the student is no more than the teacher but when he finishes his studies he will be the same as the teacher and may he continue to bless them and don’t be surprised by their teachings amen! Mark 1:14-15 7:10-20-23 8:2-3 10:18-19-21-43-45 16:4-6-8-11-13-15-16-19 Luke 6:40-42-44-46-48 8:5-10-21 10:25-27-37 11:2-4-9-12-17-20 12:56-57-58-59 13:23-24-29-34
Really good video...
Thanks!
If you install the pinion without the crush sleeve… how are you supposed to know if the pinion is sitting in the correct spot when your installing the carrier to set backlash. I get that you do it to save having to replace crush sleeves if you need to add more shims behind the pinion bearing. I just don’t understand how it works without something there? I was told to use the old crush sleeve (if useable) as a template. Then set backlash. Then replace old crush sleeve with a new one and tighten pinion nut to manufacture specs.
The crush sleeve does not affect pinion depth. It only serves to help set pre-load at the outer tail bearing. Depending on the axle model, pre-load shims or crush sleeves are only required during final assembly, after the pattern has been set properly.
@@rearwheelperformance that makes sense hearing that. Thanks! Your videos were perfect I look forward to doing my gear/posi install on my 64’ C10 very soon! Cheers
@@chrishill3288 Good to hear. Keep us in mind if you want a second opinion on the setup pattern. Have a great one!
@@rearwheelperformance one last question. I am planing to do my install Thursday so I am just running the whole procedure in my head, and my last question is… can I install the pinion/crush sleeve and set pre-load to 25 inch lbs on the pinion yoke first, before even setting the carrier into the housing?
@@chrishill3288 pinion preload should be set to spec before the carrier is installed, that way the reading is only the pinion rotation.
Is this video assuming you already have your pinion depth set correctly? Or do you set it after checking backlash/ paint?
Set it up initially as closely as possible using the previous/original pinion shim or a setup depth checking tool, then check the contact pattern to determine if it requires additional adjustment to make it good.
Thanks for the reply. I’ll be doing my first gear swap as soon as I get the parts I ordered. Great video btw. I’ll be checking it out a couple more times probably.
Real good, have fun. Call us if you need help on anything. 877-910-2244 @@dumpsterguy85
I bought a 8.8 to put in my falcon and decided to check backlash and it has .014. Should I try and tighten it up or since it’s a used rear end just run with it? Are the shims that are in it thin enough to move around to get it to the .008-.012 spec for a rebuilt ring and pinion. I feel if I try and tighten it up I will be chasing my tail. What are your thoughts. Thanks and great video
You probably would get away with it, but for how simple it really is we would re-shim for better backlash. Even if breaks in ok and runs quiet, it is our opinion that more backlash allows more movement in the entire driveline. Think of it like a hammer swing - you can do a lot more damage with a 14" swing vs 8" swing - using an analogy here :)
@@rearwheelperformance thanks
Can you share any tips for what pattern to look for when installing used gears, most of what I’ve read is to only look at the pattern on the coast side.
Used gears have already worn in a flat pattern on the drive side. It is the entire side of the face of the drive side ring gear teeth. Marking to read a perfect pattern is difficult since the surface tension of marking compound won't allow the ring and pinion teeth to "wipe away" to reveal. Bad patterns will be obvious, with defined high or low markings. Again, a good pattern will likely just look like smooth marking compound without much, if any, dark pattern.
I'm replacing the differential bearings of my C1500 4.3L RWD long bed pickup truck and the carrier side bearing DON"T have any shims! how can I make any adjustments if there is not room to put shims? Any help would be appreciated. Thankyou
Sounds like it should be a common 10 bolt 8.5/8.6 model rear depending on the year, which all use side shims for backlash. Contact the tech line and have some pics ready to share with them to review: 877-910-2244 8a-4p Central M-F
Nothing about this showed what each pattern meant
Can you share the part number for the tool you used to pull the pinion bearing?
Absolutely! The clamshell bearing puller set is part # 90-0001-1. You can find it at www.nationaldrivetrain.com or sold through Accu Auto Parts.
If you want to see more of this bearing puller in action, check out our video highlighting the strengths of this tool over the conventional splitters in "Differential Bearing Puller vs Pinion Bearing Splitter: What's the Difference?"
What keeps the crush sleeve from crushing more when you torque the nut the finial time
Torque the pinion nut in increasingly smaller steps, checking frequently, when the bearing preload (rotational drag) is getting close to specifications. Stop adding additional pinion nut torque once the bearing preload (drag) is anywhere within the specification range.
First of all your not measuring torque ,your are measuring preload ,On a 12 bolt GM you need some where between 400 and 600 ftlbs to start crushing the collar , you have to 'creep' up to the desired preload ,which is measured in Inch-Lbs usually 10 to 15 in-lbs of preload . Ive built over 500 12 bolts and the only impact that seems powerful enough to crush the 12 bolt is the M-18 Milwaukee , the M-18 is the best battery powered impact to use ,don't waste you money on other name brands that I won't mention ,8.5 GM and 9 in and 8.8 Ford crush fairly easy ,12 bolt and corvette 65-79 are tough to crush , have recently run into some aftermarket crush collars that refuse to crush , stick with OEM or Rateck
I know this is a late comment, but I need a bit of clarification. You are saying to crush the sleeve AFTER setting pinion depth and backlash? I don't see a problem with this other than getting an accurate pinion preload reading, since it is in inch-pounds. How do you accomplish this is you are dragging the ring gear along for the ride?
Not at all. The crush sleeve is only required upon final assembly as it has no effect on the pattern setting process. Pinion pre-load is checked before the case/ring is put into the housing. You never know if your going to need adjustments for the pattern, until the pattern is checked. Of course, you are free to use a crush sleeve for every pattern check, but you will need to have extra sleeves and it will add a bit of time to the overall installation/setup process. That is, unless you get lucky with a perfect pattern on the first try ;)
I have a wolseley 1500 or morris minor diff broken off a pinion gear tooth diff still working do I need to replace crown and pinion wheel as a set and what is the correct t pattern on the crown gear?
We can't understand the question, but feel free to call us and we can get a better idea of how to assist.
So you say don’t use a crush leave when you’re setting up your opinion and up for the first time but don’t you need to have one in there, maybe the old one?
They are only necessary during the final assembly when the contact pattern has been checked and set properly. It would serve no purpose during the setup and checking process.
At 4:25 what is it exactly that is causing the noise? Backlash or pinion depth? I’m doing my 8.8 I had and when I’m spec of backlash I still hear that noise. Any help is appreciated, thanks guys!
Assuming the backlash is set within the gear manufacturer's specifications, that sound you referenced will always be pinion depth. As bad as we were able to sample for the video, the pattern would be pretty terrible also.
@@rearwheelperformance thanks guys!
@@MiguelHernandez-bj9lh Thank you. Hope it all works out well for you.
By any chance do you guys have an email I can mail a video to? I’m so stumped on this
@@MiguelHernandez-bj9lh We'd be happy to offer our opinion. Send your video to info@nationaldrivetrain.com and we'll take a look.
you guys rock
Yeah? Well, you know, that's just like uh, your opinion, man. 🎳 Thanks!
I’m shocked that non of mechanics in 13 shops know how to fix the slip differential.
My 3 different cars have a huge problem when going and rear end whips around like being on ice
Even dodge dealers have no idea
Please help me
is it normal for a rear that i just got done rebuilding to run hot to the touch? i only put about 5 miles on it and got under it to see if every thing was good or not leaking, i put my hand on the pumkin and it was almost to hot to touch. i didn't smell any hot oil or see any oil leaks and i have the right kind of oil and amount in it?
Absolutely they will run hotter than normal during break-in, and especially so on that first drive (why most installers want the first one or two break-in drives and heat cycles before handing it back to the vehicle owner). The tooth surfaces on most new gears are rough and need to wear in slowly to smooth out. Most manufacturers will advise a specific break-in cycle, and then a gear oil change at a few hundred miles to get rid of all the particulates that are shed during the break in process.
How to compensate housing deflections with BGS setting in order to have a worth contact pattern ? Anybody has experience with this?
Can you elaborate on this? What is your experience with this issue?
How to set the pinion depth ,is there any calculation for that
If there are pinion depth markings etched or stamped in the new gear set you may be able. Have your installer contact our tech line at 877-910-2244 M-F 8a-4p (Central Time)
Where does the heel and toe terminology come from?
We've never looked into that one. Please tell us if you know anything about it or anything else related.
New gears and bearings. Pinion preload was perfect, Backlash perfect, contact patterns perfect in 3 places. On test drive there is high pitched whine coasting. Pulled everything apart, patern couldn't be more perfect. What gives???
It happens. This is why we've been big on trying to add an audible check in addition to the tooth contact pattern check during that phase if installation. Rotating the assembly by hand during the gear pattern check, it needs to sound and feel silky smooth, and if there is any amount of tooth mesh feel or sound during that phase, it will definitely turn into a whine during road driving. We've sacrificed contact patterns for feel/sound for critical drivers, and we've sacrificed a bit of coast whine to assure that the drive side had the broadest contact for strength for performance applications.
The good thing is, that a unusually noisy gear can be re-shimmed to try to reduce it, but only if had a very short initial drive. A broken-in noisy gearset will never be able to be shimmed quieter again.
@rearwheelperformance i drove 19 miles. I am assuming you would shim pinion away from ring gear. The noise isn't too bad, i can live with it, but just makes me think something isn't right.
@@redrustyhill2 Without a visual of the original pattern we could only guess what may have helped, but in our experience, once driven more than a few miles it will not be able to re-shim any quieter (or worse). Some installers rule of thumb is it should be ok if it is quieter than the other noises from the transmission whir, tires, etc.
When adjusting backlash on a 8.8 I heard that moving a .010 shim from one side to the other yields a .007 change in backlash? Just curious so I have a idea of how much shim to move to cut my .014 BL in half.
Thanks!
Seems about right, its seems to average about 70-90% of the backlash adjustment. We'd probably adjust about .008" on the sides. Very nice you want to get it on the low side of backlash, always a winner move!
Crush sleeves are outdated tech
Tell this to the original equipment manufacturers (i.e.,AAM, Spicer, ZF, etc.) that have eliminated most preload shimmed models. They're not bad or outdated, just different. Preload shimmed and solid spacers styles are great for those who need and know how to use them effectively. If you want others to benefit from comments, It's much more productive to state the comment subject, then elaborate a bit on experience of how and why, otherwise it just looks a little snarky to everyone reading. We can all do better.
No! This is misleading
Sorry but it’s true.
You cannot just focus on pinion high , pinion low , pinion centered,
The pattern could be centered but be at the toe.
That’s not good but the video didn’t explain that and if you just focus on the fact that it’s centered your in for trouble.
Backlash could be correct, pattern could be centered but pattern is at toe.! Not good
Video needs work
Awesome, explain how you think is the best way to center a slight heel/toe pattern, when the backlash is already in spec and the pattern in centered root to tip. If you want to critique a technique, fine, but if you really want to help people, you should also explain what you believe is the correct method. Just saying 'no' isn't helpful to anyone.
Hello. I need your assistance. If pinion teeth are 8 and ring teeth is 37. Are better or pinion teeth 11 and ring teeth 51 ?
As a general rule, more teeth helps with more tooth contact area. We have yet to hear or see anything different, but I'm sure that a mechanical engineer may have a more knowledgeable answer based on facts if they can add to this.
Thank you for the information I hope you leave your phone number and thank you for this video
Thank you for your support! If anyone needs help reading or setting a pattern they can call our tech line at 877-910-2244 during the week
Like @joecurry7864, I've viewed a LOT of videos and your video is far superior to all of the others. Thanks for the content.
Thank you very much!
So if set up correctly you shouldn’t have any gear noise at 50-60 mph???
There shouldn't be any moderate or substantial gear noise at any speed. We know of some installations that had a low-but-reasonably-acceptable amount of noise that never wore out over many miles and years, but trying for installations with as absolutely as little as possible is the goal.
@@rearwheelperformance yeah this is at 53-56 when your foot is barley on the gas cruising it sings then goes away as you move past 56mph or you go below 53mph it goes away. Never didn’t it with factory gears ⚙️
@@RCCRAZYSTUPID Sounds like a driveline harmonic that comes and goes only at certain speeds, and it will likely come back more intense at double the speed you are hearing it now. Machining and pattern issues will more commonly be heard at all speeds, becoming more pronounced as speeds increase. It won't go away, but if it is at a speed that is driving you nuts, you can have a driveline company add a harmonic damper to your driveshaft that can help a lot, or swap to a different ratio or tooth count. This is probably the hardest issue to diagnose and fix, and worthy of it's own video soon.
@@rearwheelperformance ok i put the original set OE gears back in & noise is gone and rear end is quite just like a brand new truck