What Happened to Winning Time? (What Went Wrong)
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- HBO's Winning Time was a short lived sports drama that depicted the rise of the Showtime Lakers during the 1980s, and it was canceled after only two seasons, and in this video, we'll be diving deep into the show's downfall, trying to figure out what happened, and what went wrong.
HBO's Winning Time was a show that I had a love/hate relationship with, but lemme know what YOU think of Winning Time in the comments below!
#winningtime #hbo #nba
Timestamps:
Intro: 00:00
Chapter One: The Controversies: 02:18
Casting Controversies: 02:42
Lakers Controversies: 06:01
Chapter Two: What Went Wrong: 10:34
Chapter Three: Best of the Best: 12:35
Conclusion: 17:50
Quoted Articles:
ew.com/tv/magic-johnson-react...
variety.com/2022/tv/news/magi...
www.silverscreenandroll.com/2...
www.indiewire.com/features/ge...
www.eonline.com/news/1320739/...
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R.I.P. JERRY WEST (THE LOGO, MR. CLUTCH)
He went out before watching Boston win another championship, and I respect it.
The literal idea of the Celtics having more chips than the Lakers took him out. That's Jerry west
🏀🫡
He also went out knowing this show got cancelled. What they did to that man was a travesty.
The worst thing about the cancelation of Winning Time is being denied seeing Pat Riley's villain arc in the latter years of Showtime. Adrian Brody would have killed it.
The actors who played Kareem and Jerry were phenomenal as well
@DonFamilia62 yeah right lmao They made Kareem into a caricature of a stoic Islamic type guy. Kareem talked faster than that and talked normal he wasn't always in robot mode
Oh Man! This! I didn’t even know this was a thing I’m too young but I would have loved to be educated on this by the show
@schuylersavage276 Google a documentary not a scripted show
This show should have been so much more. HBO really fumbled the bag
that ending was brutal
Writer strike messed up a lot of things
Same with Tokyo Vice…ppl cant appreciate good television
Magic shut this show down cause if they dug any deeper they would’ve uncover some shit that don’t need to be uncover
Really had us waiting for the mid 90s-00s lakers script
Judging how in the first episode, they had a scene where Magic announced that he had HIV just shows that they planned for the show to reach up to that point. I really hate how much the second season wrapped up the entire story so abruptly. Multiple seasons of this show would've been legendary.
Should’ve never been canceled
I don’t think Boston winning was the way they intended to end it I think they thought they were gonna have more seasons to work with
It definitely wasn’t the way they intended
Yeah you can really tell that it was super rushed ending of season 2 they didn't expect it to get canceled
Exactly.
For sure
Part of me feels they didn't even get to finish the season. I think they were just as shocked it ended as the viewers.
I thought it was a great show, and I had no problem with Dr. Buss' 4th wall explanations.
Those 4th wall interludes help keep the information flowing in a casual & irreverent way.
My only problem with the show was the amount of sex, would have rather it been a bit more implied that it's happening rather than a sex scene in just about every episode, but tbf it is a slightly central point that I'm glad the show didn't just outright ignore it
“Speaking of Magic, it’s not always good to be positive.” Man that killed me.
That shit was diabolical, had to click off the video to recalibrate myself
I actually liked the 4th wall breaks. I think added to the campiness and 70's/80's vibe of the show, which it was going for.
I think it also helped to add context to what Buss was doing, as he was meant to be sleezy and deceiving. Also the way it was shot made it feel like his internal monologue and the fact that he wasn't even being truthful in the 4th wall breaks added to this and made you feel like it was him just lying to himself.
I feel the same exact way! I thought it was very creative
Same here
The NBA wanted the show gone the same way the NFL wanted the show Playmakers gone.
Playmakers was so fire. Thankfully I still have the DVDs. Deion even confirmed how real it was years ago
You're right, Rolo. The show was canceled because of politics.
But Ballers was acceptable lol jk.
@@GrizzINK I liked ballers but mostly just cause I wanted more Entourage. That format and vibe is so good.
You nailed it idk what this guy talking about literally it’s known that magic been trying to get this canceled. Jerry hated it also. The stuff he complained about is what everyone loved about it
Definitely feels like some of the real life characters made a few phone calls. The show was so good, creative, nostalgic, and headed towards more stories to tell. Made no sense to cancel it
I used to really look forward to this show every week. And it was just starting to get going. So much more story to tell.
I liked the show. I’m a 43 year old LA native and a lifelong lakers fan. Winning Time reminded of my mother who loved magic Johnson. When he hit the baby sky hook in 86 my mom ran outside screaming “I LOVE ME SOME MAGIC JOHNSON”. Rest in peace to my mom and “Winning Time”
I enjoyed the show thoroughly, not being a hardcore basketball fan, I wasn’t looking for journalistic accuracy but rather a good story hung around real events. The multiple story lines and characters made for a well paced and entertaining show. Am really bummed that it was cancelled, hopefully HBO reconsiders.
Finally...a sane take on the show.
I really hate that they scrapped a show this cool and unique. They made first season's 10 episodes all about their 1980 season, and then they had just 7 episodes to go through 3 years and then just canceled the show altogether when it looked like it was just coming into its own. The second season has a much nicer shift of style from the first one as it sort of goes from the 70s into the 80s and I wish HBO let them showcase this and expand upon it instead of just jamming it all into 7 episodes. I get that the show probably wasn't making the kind of money they expected, but they could've at least given it one more season to round out this story at least a little bit more than just a stupid title card ending after a defeat by the Celtics. That outlines a bigger problem with TV shows and streaming services today, they just cancel interesting shows after one or two seasons if they are not performing top notch. Mindhunter is another show I really love that Netflix just canceled because of the money. It's ridiculous how they expect for a show to just come into its own right away and be a cash cow for them, these services today would probably cancel Breaking Bad after the 2nd season cus it's not a hit.
Also, about all the disagreements between the real Lakers and their portrayal in the show. The show is a dramatization of real life events, this has literally been done a million times over so I don't get the controversy over this. Magic hates it because he was making his own Lakeshow documentary during this time and together with Jerry West and Kareem they hate how they are portrayed not because it's entirely untrue but because it hurts their brand and their image today. And the show planted seeds in its 2nd season about how Jerry would be taking over management from Sharman, but the show was canceled before any further character development could be done. I would like to make a comparison with the Sopranos and how Steven van Zandt's character Silvio was basically portrayed as comedic relief in the first season, but eventually became one of the shows most well written, acted and memorable characters. Of course I understand we are talking about a real life person here but since the show is such a dramatization does it really matter?
Ironically most of the best TV shows on streaming had rather weak seasons early on. Most find their footing around season 2/season 3 with the support of the network and 24 episode seasons. Now most shows are cancelled in half the time with half the episode counts
@@richborn6700to be fair, the 24 episode per season model produced a ton of filler episodes. I prefer a lean, mean, 13 episode season
Absolute facts dude
I absolutely loved the show. It had so much potential.
I genuinely don’t understand the critiques in this video. Don’t get me wrong, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but this just feels like “If it’s not traditional, I don’t like it”. Breaking the fourth wall?? That shit was great. A lot of ppl watching prolly weren’t around back then (I’m 22) so for us, or me atleast, having John C Reilly explain things was great.
HOWEVER! I agree that bending the truth wasn’t great for long term success. And the viewership thing as well.
The reason this show failed is because it came out ten years too late. People don’t watch tv like they used to. Some series built an audience from the early 2010’s like g.o.t may have some die hard fans but for the most part people’s attention span nowadays aren’t built for a hour long tv show. Another reason is the generation gap. These kids don’t care about the 70’s or 80’s. If you are gen x and was a kid or young adult then it’s nostalgic but a lot of us really don’t have time to watch tv so we may catch up on it later. It’s ashamed because I really liked this show it was funny and took me back to when I was a little kid with the fashion, music old cars and stuff. I wanted to see what they were going to do with the pistons and the Michael Jordan craze definitely wasted potential.
Disclaimer: I thoroughly enjoyed this video and did find it very insightful, but there's a few things I wanted to comment on regarding the show, as I was a fan prior to the cancellation and hoped for more seasons:
- While there are things that the show greatly exaggerated about Jerry West, like his drinking, his outbursts, and his relationships with players, many of the things they added are actually well known to be true, which is why he didn't like his portrayal. Jerry West was a toxic coach. He struggled with depression and anxiety throughout his life. And he was haunted by his losses in the NBA finals. But most importantly, the show did actively try to show his positive impact on the Lakers in the second season, they just didn't have time to add on much more to that.
- Magic said he didn't watch the show because he was in the midst of promoting his own docu-series that he likely produced, which basically is the same as every other documentary about the 1980's Los Angeles Lakers and brought nothing new to the table for most longtime fans.
- Most of the players and former members of the Lakers front office don't understand the difference between a documentary and a television show. HBO and the producers of Winning Time make it very clear that the show is not 100% truth and some narratives are fabricated. If former Laker players weren't involved, that's a different story. But they definitely were not mislead by what the show was supposed to be. Overall, the show is more truthful than it is dishonest, and that's the best you're going to get from a TV show. Plus, I don't think fans were so bothered by the inaccuracies that it actually caused a major decline in viewership.
- Lastly, what I think really killed the show, or what definitely impacted it, was staggered story telling. I mean there was only two or three episodes with Pat Riley as the head coach, and really any plotline pertaining to coaches being hired was so dull and predictable and slow. Larry Bird didn't make a real appearance until 7 episodes in either. The show had no problem glossing over details, like the entire 1983 regular season, or really any playoff moments that weren't the NBA finals. This is why it was frustrating to me.
Jeanie Buss and Magic didnt want it to continue because some skeletons will be out in the open if it did go through. The ratings for the show was great. Alot of people love it. Remember the show supposed to go all the way when Magic retired cus of HIV.
It was canceled because the WB Discovery CEO doesn’t like spending. He already canceled two movies that were shot and filmed. He prefers reality tv shows because middle america watch’s that crap and it is cheap to produce.
"Alot of people love it."
Not me. You mean "I'm talking to the camera audience because it would be funnier every 5 minutes of the series" was NONSENSE. It ANNOYED a lot of people. I;m not asking for the Last Dance. Just straight up dramatization would be more effective.
@@americasteam2112 TV shows are just better and flush out a story better then movies
I don't think that's true, Jeannie has been on record stating that she liked John Reilly's performance as Jerry Buss.
I've been trying to find it but I thought I read something about the possibility that Jeannie (or someone else) could "buy" the show and get it to another network.
@@americasteam2112 nonsense. It failed in the ratings. The way it works is lots of people watch, you get renewed. And middle America doesn't watch reality shows. Middle America despises them .
The first season was genuinely legendary man.
This show is Fckn amazing and NEEDS to be picked up by Netflix or even Apple TV
This Show was 🔥man I was looking forward to it every week. Liked the retro theme!
Good work as always. I personally thought it was a good series and was bummed when the show got axed. I think while the show was dramatized I do think they showed more truth than people believe
I was a caterer on this show for a bit. The actor for Magic ate like he hadn’t eaten in a week lol
If u hoop you'll know the more calories u burn the hungry u get especially if u keep playing 😂.
Was a big fan of THE BRONX IS BURNING on ESPN. Very polished. Brilliantly juxtaposed parallel narratives of the Yankees title chase and the pursuit of the Son of Sam killer.
This show could've gone 30 plus seasons
So the actors portraying athletes in their 20's could be doing it in their 50's? 😂
@@jlobiafracould of spun off into Winning Time: His Airness (Jordan), Kobe & Shaq, Rise of the Heatles (Heat Big 3), and Warriors. Obvi it wouldn’t just be the showtime lakers
@@slimguardnii it was based off of jeff pearlmans book Showtime: the rise of the Lakers 80's Dynasty. It was always just going to be that one era.
@@jlobiafra key word spin off. If they made it 30+ seasons it wouldn’t just be showtime era. You also missed the key word of spin off
@@slimguardnii the original comment never mentioned the word "spinoff "
I thought the show had potential to go all the way to the mid 90s with shaq and Kobe orgins as showtime was coming to an end. From the moment that changes the name from SHOW
Time to winning time.I knew there was gonna be a problem
Since I don’t track many shows as a way to keep from spoilers, I was blown away with how the season ended and finding out that was it.
We needed at least 1 more season to get to the announcement 😞
I thought the Season 2 ending had a decent "Dark HBO" vibe - like when a season of GoT ended with Jon Snow dying. Makes me want to tune in next season to see how the protagonist rebounds from adversity.
I would have liked at least 2 more seasons. The next season would have covered the back and forth in championships between Boston and Los Angeles in 85 and 86. A heartwarming season finale, in contrast with the previous season, would have centred around the 1987 off-season commercial shoot for Converse with Bird and Magic in Bird's hometown of French Lick. When shooting took a lunch break, Bird invited Magic over to his home for lunch. Bird's mom put out a full spread. Bird's mom told Magic that he was her favorite player. Bird and Magic bonded over the fact they both grew up poor in the Midwest, and the 2 most important things to them were winning in basketball and family.
Most of season 4 would focus on the quest for back-to-back, Kareem and Riley leaving, and the rise of the Pistons and Jordan. The series finale would start the same way as the series premiere, but would then include Magic's triumphant return and MVP performance in the All-Star game, and the gold medal with the Dream Team, playing alongside Bird in their "last hoorah" winning the gold, with an epilogue about how they not only saved the NBA in the 1980s, but also laid the foundations with the international growth of the game.
Then I'm hoping for a parallel spin-off series featuring Boston - but I've already asked for too much.
Great video and great taste in music. That Jazzy NYC remix is a classic.
Honestly I loved the show the way it was. All your issues are some of the reasons why i enjoyed it, even if it wasn’t all true to real life
This show might not have had the best story but man was it entertaining. I literally watched Season 1 in 2 days after i found out about it. I was so hyped for Season 2 and was so dissapointed in it's ending and aftermath. Great video tho.
RIP JERRY WEST AKA THE LOGO
I absolutely LOVED the show. I loved how they broke the fourth wall, I loved how it was filmed, I loved the music. This is the most disappointed I have ever been about a show being canceled.
Putting season 2 on during August instead of April and may during the nba play offs was a bit time losing move
Great review, I always wanted to watch this show, I'll do so now.
The problem is that it’s a real story. Sports movies only work if it’s a mythical story or a semi mythical story. When it’s a real retelling of the events it doesn’t work because it’s too sporty for entertainment fans and sports fans already know what’s going to happen so they lose interest after a bit. The trick is you gotta do just enough from each category to make both fans hooked.
"The Bronx Is Burning" on ESPN did it right.
Anyone know where we can watch it now besides HBO Max?
Was a pretty enjoyable show, it’s a shame it had to end the way it did. Great video man!
I thoroughly enjoyed this show as well as your use of Persona BGM. Good shit
This was a very good documentary. I'm a huge Lakers fan and I love the show It was extremely upset when I found out it got cancelled. But to be honest with you I believe the Writer's And Actor's Strike really cause for it to be cancelled. I wish this would have been finished the series tho.
Loved this show! I didn’t have an issue with the 4th wall element and thought it worked very well. I think a big part of the show’s cancellation was the writers and actors strike.
I felt like the 80s all over again an I was a kid in the 80s with my two fav team lakers an Boston. It was a great show and I look forward every week .
What movie is the "WHAT A SICK JOKE!..." clip from that we see around 1:29?...
I can't place it.
Better Call Saul
Me myself, I was enjoying the show. I accepted all the crazy, over the top storylines. Regardless if they were fact or fiction. When that montage during the finale started playing, I was left confused. Had no idea it was a series finale instead of a season finale. I too wish we could’ve gotten at least one more season, but I guess viewership n word of mouth was too negative to keep the show going. 😪
The show ended because Magic Johnson and others depicted in winning time wanted it canceled because he was shown cheating on his wife and others who were at risk of reopening old wounds it was one of the most viewed shows on Max fool
Facts
Great show with great actors. I grew up watching the Celtics-Lakers rivalry, so I understand that there were liberties taken. Was the portrayal of Jerry West over the top? Yes! But love the actors who played Magic and Buss (Quincy Isaiah grew on me as Magic!).
But the reality is that sports dramas are not easy to successfully make. You already have a limited audience, that of sports, and you want to tell a story of a well-bygone era (even for hoop fans!) and have that story appeal to a wide mainstream market. That's a tall task, even without the opposition to the show from the players, of back then.
Wow this is news I didn’t want to hear, just a couple days ago I had the thought how Winning Time is helping shows like the new Clippers fiasco come about. Was hoping for Kobe and Mikes etc..
I have not seen the show (although I wanted to) but now I’m hesitant because I absolutely hate 4th wall breaking and exposition dumps. It feels either lazy (show don’t tell) or like I’m being talked down to like the show/ movie makers think I can’t put context together.
I have knew that there would be a crossover of Persona 4 SFX and critiquing the showtime lakers show, you got taste brother
Jerry West in his autobiography said he would often break golf clubs.
What is the song at 12:37 ????
This show left a bad taste in my mouth the way it ended, definitely not one for the refined palate
What does this mean
I'm was very pissed off 😡🔥and afterwards my mom cancelled HBO and glad she did that for me fuck Celtics also very pissed about this year's playoffs.
That first season was GOAT STATUS!! I heard on the radio that certain Lakers legends were behind getting this show cancelled 🤷🏾♂️ it was cancelled before Season 2 was even written lol
Enjoyed this video. I loved Winning time it’s awful how the series ended. What’s the name of the song/beat played 0:11 - 0:22 ???
My favorite thing about this video is the random use of the Noisy Bizarre Town’s visuals @ 9:27
Great show I loved it! The former players just saw it was a bit TOO accurate and Jeannie even later said John C. Reilly did a great job as her dad! Crybaby athletes once again wanting to pretend they walk on water. I bet the “insider” from the Lakers was Pat Riley.
Jerry West hated Jason Clarke’s over the top portrayal of him in the show and I’m sure he passed satisfied that it got canceled
The mile part was really interesting too btw.
I love this series & i hate it got cancelled. I knew it wasn’t going to last long due to Jerry West, Kareem Abdul Jabbar & Magic Johnson not liking their portrayals.
Yea… one was considered a dick, the second was a full blown racist and the third almost f**** the world to extinction .. so I guess they thought they were going to portrayed as saints … 😂… everyone has skeletons in their closets
This show was supposed to have multiple seasons unfortunately and I guess when HBO wasn't renewing the series they had to come up with an ending which was rushed.
This could have went 4-5 seasons.
I loved it as well. Shame it's not coming back.
I was very confused to see the season finale (main game footage) be of boston winning and had no idea it was cancelled. I guess they tacked everything else on quickly at the end? But that's a shame, I enjoyed it a lot.
I just saw it as like a cartoonish depiction of reality interspersed some great drama and stakes. I get how irritating it would be for the guys it's depicting though.
Adrian Brody definitely crushed it as Pat Riley and Segal's character brought so much "stress" to the show in a good way.
I think it's basically nostalgia overload. The story of Magic/Lakers/Bird is great. So great that it's been told in a lot of different books and documentaries. People will lose interest in hearing even the best stories if they're told too much.
Never knew it was cancelled, I’ve been waiting for season 3. I loved this show
This show was very interesting and I liked it a lot. I did laugh a lot at the show especially at Jerry West. Rip Mr. Jerry West
Listen, it sucks this show got cancelled prematurely and I have nothing but love and respect for the creatives that were on this and made this show possible. Cancellations happen unfortunately and all that, I don't really feel like playing the blame game right now.
With all that being said, it is absolutely egregious this series ending with the Celtics winning the title and the rest of the showtime tenure being told to us via a middle school montage. I would have bought both seasons physically even with the cancellation, but because of this, it's a no for me!
i would have loved for this series to get 6+ seasons man, quality and acting was A1
Winning time was great. I think they covered everything they needed to up until the Lakers and Celtics started going back and forth.
As a casual basketball viewer that missed out on the opportunity to watch the sport growing up, I enjoyed Winning Time. I recorded it every week if I couldn't catch it. Even if certain events are over embellished for entertainment purposes, that's what it was to me. Entertainment. Moments to put on a smile on my face when I saw the Lakers winning. Sad that it ended too abuptly.
The show was good pretty sure it got cancelled because of backlash from magic and Jerry west... Nobody wants a show that doesn't paint them in a positive light...
This was a great show. Should’ve kept because the one thing it did for me was get me into the legend of the past especially the 60s like Wilt and Bill.
Every episode was a blast, sad to see it go after it felt like it was beloved
“It’s not always good to be positive” crazy 😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣
I actually enjoyed Winning Time, it was both informative and brought back memories of that era. I didn't expect it to be perfect, but it was overall an entertaining series.
I liked the show, watched the first season, but i wasn't too bummed when it got cancelled.
Dang I saw the first season and didn’t even know they released a second
Man that stray on the Euphoria guy had me crying
your end ? - my fav has to be the friday night lights film. yes, it deviates from the book a good bit and i don’t find billy bob believable as a coach, but i loved the interpersonal relationships and the cultural tension these young men have to wade through.
using football as a backdrop to explore slices of life in a small “born here die here” town will always have me hooked
I need more of this show I CANT GO BACK TO LIFE WITHOUT IT
It's still a good watch I watched it yesterday
This show would’ve feed families. It was so good. I was looking forward to watching it till the end of Magic’s career.
It was unfortunate that the show was cut short. It was pretty good. Not ground breaking or anything but I had a good time watching it.
This is the GREATEST FUKN DOCUDRAMA EVERRRRR! I hate the lakers as a Celtics fan, but this was MUST WATCH TV 📺
The show began to hit its stride right as the writers strike began its not the show runners fault it’s just bad luck
The casting of this show was so great. Especially juxtaposed against the casting of Clipped 😂
I miss this show bro, I really loved it and the 4th wall breaks
This should of lasted multiple seasons and lead into the Kobe/Shaq dynasty
And I say that as a 76er diehard fan
Season 2 did not have a finale we were supposed to have 3-4 more episodes but hbo cancelled half way through and John c Reilly came in that week to film the last scene with jeanie 🤷🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
It could've gone on for years they could've done Shaq and Kobe Next then Kobe and Pau and than LeBron and AD at the end it could've been so good
If this is Ben Simmons, then what’s clipped?
The characters (and therefore the acting) are actually what made this show so great. I don't really care about the liberties they took with the story because not only is it entertaining, it makes sense to me.
Should be said that games were filming brilliantly with the help of cameraman in the rollers
The show ending with the Celtics beating the Lakers is hilarious
It was great entertainment .But hated the way Jerry West was portrayed he was a measured quiet man .who was also tormented by all those losses to the Celtcs but he was certainly not a ratnting nutcase ..And the ending was brutally shortened .Should have closed the season in 85 when they finally beat them 4_2 game 6 in Boston .
I hardly watch HBO but I saw every episode!! Specially Pat Riley. And then it ended so quick and I was like what? That’s it?
I think another season, even if it's only 6 episodes long, would have been a nice way to wrap a little bow on it. My favorite scene in the series is when Bird travels to Indiana State and takes the entire team to school in his work shoes and clothes.
1:37 the entendres 🤌
Shame how they ended it. I was strapping in for a 9 season min.