The Loudness War - A Real Example!
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- • The Loudness War - A R... Click for HQ stereo.
I noticed that all of the other loudness war examples on here have been created by the user.
The first clip I didn't create myself, I did nothing more than reduce the volume, it is the version from Massive Attack's best of album Collected, the second is the original version from Blue Lines. The difference isn't that obvious mainly because of the general crappy nature of the sound quality on RUclips and because its not an extreme example.
This treatment makes almost no effect on record sales, on iTunes the original version is the #2 best selling Massive Attack song while the compressed version #7
Fair use is assumed as it is a short clip.
Very simple: If you look at a music waveform and the peaks are tall like needles, with some imperfections, then probably no compression was used. If you look at a waveform and the peaks are all the same height or "squared off" then something sinister is happening. Music - and sound in general - is not naturally squared off. It violates basic physics. I hope this advice has forever changed the way you listen to and appreciate music. :)
Compression is not the enemy. OVER-compression is. 👍🏻
@@zerosoma33 Although, the line between both is subjective.
I view dynamic compression more as a control tool, and less of an artistic element.
@@Zickcermacity is there a difference
@@paolosworld99 Judicious use of compression = for control. Overuse? Artistic choice, pro-loudness above all else.
@@Zickcermacity But wouldn't compression of all levels be considered artistic choice? Whether it's slight clipping or full crushing?
I think dance music is one genre that is not so badly effected as by this as others probably because vinyl is still quite mainstream and because an audible beat is so important for the music to work.
that's the opposite, 'warm' refers to soft clipping like what happens in tube amplification, it's a pleasant sound that can actually enhance natural harmonics. what's happening in the loudness war is "cold", flatline clipping which is typical of isometric digital recordings (like CDs and WAV/MP3). if sweetassour is referring to the first clip as warmer, listen again and focus on the strings, how they bloom and have body in the second clip. these are the details we are losing in the loudness war
They both seem identical to me. The second clip is louder but the first one is already compressed quite a bit.
That not the worst I've seen but the 2nd half surrounds you much more.
It's already distorted on the CD. D/A conversion can't fix that, only worsen or reproduce it.
44.1k sampling gets you only 2-3 points of data at 20k, and still only 4-5 points of data at 10k.
It's like plotting a graph. You can't draw a smooth curve if you only have 2 to 4 dots to connect. It ends up being triangular or squared off.... badly distorted.
192k gives you more than 4 times the data points to connect... much smoother. A sine wave stays reasonably sine-like where it matters.
You're right Mortison, the nyquist theorum shows that any analog signal can be perfectly reconstructed with only *2* points. 44.1 was chosen for this reason....anything more is unnecessary overkill, plain and simple. This is why recording studios nearly always record at 44.1 - there's just no good reason to go higher, and it's a huge waste of diskspace (which equals a huge pain in the ass when you're moving around/backing up that data at the end of every night.).
I would say the only thing that makes vinyl sound seemingly better is that there are certain mechanical limits that prevent dynamic range compression to go to such extremes as is the case with CDs. Otherwise, digital technology (if properly used) is superior.
Well I don't have anything against compression. In fact, SOME compression is needed to make a nicely balanced mix where certain instruments with high, short volume peaks can be heard within the mix. I also agree with some compression at the mastering stage, to bring up the softer parts so everything can be heard even at low levels and the mix sounds coherent. But once it passes a certain point, eveything sounds squashed or even distorted. Well I guess we talk in vain: the loudness war goes on.
Thank God that Gino Vannelli's Nightwalker came out in 1981.
I have the blue lines album and it sounds great.
I recently brought a guns and roses cd from 1991. (I wouldn't say im a fan but there was one particular track I wanted to hear). Nevertheless after listening to the album for a few days I played a system of a down cd and straight away it sounded muddled and had a narrower sound. Most if not all cd's I have from late nineties onwards are like this, which is a damn shame. On the other hand all my cd's from 1991 sound excellent.
OMG. I can notice the difference, and i have this song, and I have played it many times- the old version- and when it began playing i thought that it sounded so poor, and then the old cd version came on...what a difference. it was the music as I was used to. it amazes me people cant hear the difference. really sad.
It is really really rare to find a CD made these days that hasn't had the audio over-blown with loudness. The absolute Worst example of audio mastering, and the Best example of having the audio stretched beyond limits, is Phil Collins - Testify CD released in 2002. Every track clips and sounds absolutely horrible. It is possibly the 'loudest' CD I own.
@Zickcermacity Actually, if there are no peaks, then heavy compression was used.
The anti-aliasing filters on pretty much all modern A/D converters cut all those high frequencies out before the signal is even converted....thus rendering it a non-issue. No studio I've ever worked in, or even been in, has ever recorded at a higher rate than 44.1, unless it was specifically requested for whatever voodoo-style reason made the client believe it was necessary for their recording.
Us "geeks" as you put it, produce the music that you hear everyday.
great video, thanks for putting this together.
the problem while listening the example is the association between the video and the sound, it confuses... if you listen only, the music sounds very similar
@ajuk1 well it actually is, if the waveform you showed is accurate, the second waveform is clearly bigger.
Wow! the second one sounds a lot better! That's pretty cool.
I don't know how much you can tell the difference from the regular quality RUclips video, but adding &fmt=18 forces RUclips to play in Quicktime format and gives clear audio. If you uploaded something else we could try that too, I suppose :)
Interesting to hear vinyl mentioned by some posters, I'm guessing that the dynamics trickery is the real culprit behind vinyl sounding better for many people.
In the uncompressed version, each sound jumps out a bit more, making it more dynamic and interesting. The over compressed version doesn't allow for any interesting dynamic shifts in the music....making it bland and uninteresting.
another good example is
Foo Fighters - All my life
0:28 you can hear it. They killed all the dynamic of that song
Whats the point it doesn't make it sell better on iTunes the original version is the #2 best selling Massive Attack song while the over compressed version #7
I can't seem to get &fmt=18 to work on this vid it's still in mono.
hmm the first one sounds better, but i have heard it countless times, and im used to this version. However, if the second track was released today after having never heard it, would i see it as a piece of genius. Yes i probably would..
Well thats OK its only the lack of dynamic range in the first clip compared to the second clip that I have a problem with.
You can get a quite loud recording without reducing the dynamics, what I do it make sure there is no single loud part of the recording bringing overall volume down, then peak level normalize.
I have Blue Cheer what doesnt kill you on cd it is so loud ive blown 4 pairs of top speakers just got the vinyl edition and it sounds completely different it sounds like music and i enjoy it, i hate stuff that is too loud or harsh, it kills the bass and drums you know other stuff that, makes a band.
yea death magnetic is the perfect example of loudness on cd. it fucked up my headphones after a few listens
Can you read first please? I was responding to the guy that claimed over compressed music is leading to the loss of hearing. It's not. You can listen to music at whatever volume you like.
Yes the perceived volume will be louder but if the peaks of each track are both mastered to 0db (or whatever) then the maximum volume of both tracks will be the same.
Another horrible yet great example I have of a CD being too loud... John Mayer - Heavier Things.
But I can confirm that the video I uploaded contains stereo, because I just looked.
talking about studio version of course
You are wrong. Compressing the dynamic range makes the overall level louder than on a track with more dynamics, where only the peaks reach a certain loudness level and pack the "punch" that is missing in this overdriven digital music.
Digital media is the best thing that ever happened to audio. It's such a pity that it's used in a destructive way.
It's funny, because the remastered one acctually has better dynamics.
i think the second one sounds maybe better, but only by a little bit
I see the difference.
How about adjusting every song's RMS level just by reducing their volumes to match the quietest song on the album. Then all the songs would be as "loud" without having to touch the dynamics at all.
Sure the rest of the songs would have to manage with slightly less dynamics of the 16 bit CD audio standard (this has nothing to do with reducing dynamics by compressing the sound) but it would be absolutely nothing compared to what they do in mastering studios nowadays.
@miragedone I've gone off this video, it's not a very extreme example and I think the second half maybe unintentionally louder. My Radiohead video is my favorite.
Sad indeed.
I think that song is the classic example of hard limiting gone way too far. I'd like to think Bob Ludwig complained heartily about having to do it, because IMO, his treatment killed the CD version of that song.
I might be slightly out but I wouldn't go that far.
Why was this video in my recommendations
@MistaMase102 But it's not actually louder.
ask 5 engineers how to achive warmth, you'll get about 8 opinions... Ask 5 consumers, what they find warm, you only get 5 answers.... Sound cant be warn, thats the reason, why this term is used in any kinda context... sometimes it means compressed, sometimes midrangy, sometimes treblish, sometimes boomy mostly distorted....
hi @ajuk1, again in response to listening to the A and B - the B (where your money's on) still is recording higher peaks. Mastering and compression basically brings the average level of sound to a higher level whilst maintaining all the peaks (at the same level). I fail to see how B is better than A considering it's 9dB louder (in terms of peaks)
"most humans can't hear higher then 44.1kHz anyway, so whats the difference "
Most humans can't hear above 20kHz... the sampling rate is how often a piece of audio is plotted, not the audible frequency.
The second version is not an uncompressed version! There is no uncompressed version of this song. The second version is actually compressed quite a deal already. The first one is just overcompressed, that's all.
Huh, what would happen if they didn't would their computer explode?
Have a closer look its mentioned on this page twice.
Most examples of this effect I've heard weren't as pronounced. Wow. Big deal.
massive attack :)
LOL I didnt know war sounded like modonna !
Umm it sounds a bit louder and warmer, not something I would exatcly complain about?
Its RUclips that's converted it to mono.
part two makes the percussion in the background near worthless.. lower frequencies take much more dynamics away from the percussive highs..
You kids and your loud Rap music.
The second one was WAY better, but the first one was still really far from REAL nowadays obscenities... I really love heavy metal but it's really painful how in the last fifteen years 90% of the records sounds really like crap... :-(
Loudness war, Mp3-players, downloadable songs in internet...Oh music, what has become of you?
It's harder to explain on a low quality video. A lot of youtube videos have CRISHP SHOUND instead of CRISP SOUND.
what program do you use to make songs louder like this? all my recording always end up so much quieter than other recordings. i want to know how you make them louder? thanks.
@boosuff but louder with more impact.......
CD is not even close...it's worse than vinyl, and even tape, in many ways.
The sampling rate for CD is just over 44kHz, which is incapable of smoothly capturing high frequencies. Sampling only 2 points on a sine wave at 20kHz, means you get a screwed up saw/triangle wave on CD.
DVD is 192k, giving a much more detailed, cleaner high end. I'd say as good as vinyl (comes down to preference), and way better than CD. Lets not forget surround-sound capabilities, either.
Don't get me wrong, that wasn't meant to be sarcasm. Hearing this is pretty upsetting.
Loudness really destroys music and this example is still far from how the most albums released today sounds...
Anyway, good song, what is its name?
youtube is a poor format to try to prove anything regarding sound quality. end of story.
Oops, well my newer vids contain better examples.
I cant tell the difference
I didn't
Try the original loudness war vid 3Gmex_4hreQ&fmt=18
@padda4 The song is by Massive Attack. I don't know the name of it.
"Unfinished Sympathy"
@MegaBigA2 4 dbs? You're optimistic... :-) Death Magnetic has an average of 3... What I keep on thinking is: WHY?!? This DOES NOT sound better, just louder and grittier... Great music, but flat as a sheet of paper, and if you try to make it understand, people simply do not fucking care... You get called "annoying" and stuff...
@trey333333333333333 Yep, i have been in Iraq and Afghanistan, and i can say this is what an m16 sounds like.
sorry man .. i put this exampl in my wavelab .. and the waveform is exact the same
maybe delete this !?!
cheers
STOP THE COMPRESSION MONSTER
"This is 2008 and we make our records LOUD!!"
This is 2009, first of all, and *they* make *our* records shitty.
Loud comes from your stereo, not from mastering.
Loud isn't the problem...distortion, over-compression, dynamic loss, auditory fatigue, and total disregard for quality is.
I didn't turn my back on anything.
As you can see on these videos, fans/musicians want quality. Get over it.
I agree. Silly me, I guess you didn't upload this as QuickTime and so that doesn't work.
It sounds exactly the same to me, to be honest.
There are some other &fmt= numbers you can use to force other playback formats, I think. If you can match the number to the format you uploaded as, it could possibly increase the playback quality.
I'm gonna have to say, though, I really can't tell any difference between the first and second example on this video, sorry :(
Death magnetic is the worst example i have ever seen. It clips and distrorts constantly. Its really a shame since the songs are preety good but ruined by the poor mastering.
Wtf