I had two big take aways from this amazing dialogue. First, is it hit me for the first time that Cain's sacrifice may have been 'technically' a good one, but he viewed it as transactional and that spoiled it. Sin crept into his sacrifice, he wanted something for himself out of it. Whereas I believe Able's sacrifice was done in pure Love and that pleased God. God is Love and Love is sacrifice. It is not transactional, it is not a trade. Oh, this of course is exactly what I need revealed to me at this exact moment in my life. The other thing that was driven home to me is the wilderness. I saw so clearly that for the infinate to be complete it must include a touch of the finite. And for the finite to live it must have a touch of the infinite in it. It feels like a song to me. The music passing back and forth from the infite into finite and back into the infinite once again. Oh that reninds me of such a wonderful quote. I dont know who said it, what a shame. "What is the shape of the universe? Music." Praise be to God.
The music is the shape of the universe quote. No idea who said it but it reminded me of another one of Johnathan videos discussing Jack and the beanstalk which you should check out if you haven't already. Also liked your comment and the transactional nature of Cains sacrifice. That's a tough one to work on as well because it's hard to kill it within yourself. Like i don't think it's transactional but it's difficult whenever fasting or whatever not to have that self interest creep in. Even if it's "I'm doing this because I want to please God so that I might sing his praise in eternity." There's still that little creep of "so that I...". Good stuff though. Always something new to work on
100%. Expecting an outcome from the sacrifice taints it. The desire for it going your way blinds you from God’s path for you. It takes an open mind and heart to accept God’s lessons. Not expecting an outcome means totally giving yourself to Him and asking Him to lead you.
Loved their discussion about not raising ourselves but lowering ourselves so that God can raise us. They briefly mentioned “emptying” ourselves and I was hoping to get more clarity about that idea. I think the concept is called “kenosis”.
Orthodox Christianity speaks of two stages marking the spiritual path: the first stage is characterised by man’s strife of purifying his garden from passions and thus reaching the state of _apatheia._ The second stage is marked by God’s work within man’s emptiness. - Michea Capruta, The Garden of the Heart
Luke 14:8-11 Jesus said to them, "When someone invites you to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for a person more distinguished than you may have been invited. If so, the host who invited both of you will come and say to you, ‘Give this person your seat.’ Then, humiliated, you will have to take the least important place. But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, ‘Friend, move up to a better place.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all the other guests. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
The point is that our intention to lower ourselves doesn't have to be for God to elevate us, but to sincerely give ourselves in sacrifice for the love of God, without expecting anything... which I admit, it is extremely difficult, we are trained from our earliest infancy to expect something .. our original sin ..
"After all this time To believe in Jesus After all those drugs I thought I was Him After all my lying And a-crying And my suffering I ain't good enough I ain't clean enough To be Him" - The Clash "The Sound of Sinners"
Yes, and really quickly again I noticed it the more I get close to the Lord the more I know I’m a sinner. I know that I am unworthy. And I can feel it the closer I get to the Lord Jesus. So what you’re saying is totally true, and we are living sacrifices, and we do our best! And then I listen to Jonathan and enjoy him very much.
With regards to taking blame, compare the thief on the right to Adam: The first covers himself, hides, and blames Eve. In a way he's correct to blame eve, but he seems to be pretending to be God by looking at the chain of causality outside himself, rather than taking blame on his part. The thief on the other hand said: “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” He takes blame and instead of looking at things from above like God he confesses Christ as above him. This is all very complicated and I'm still trying to hash it out. The Orthodox Church loves to make the connection between Adam and the thief so I'm sure there's something very profound here.
Your connection between Adam and the Thief seems to be a deeply intuitive one and that rings so true to me. Thank you so much for sharing it. As a Catholic I so enjoy listening to the insights of our Eastern Brothers and Sisters. It is like lifting precious artifacts out of the waters of mystery to gaze upon with awe for a time, let them have their effect on us, and then place them reverently back into mystery where they belong.
Thank you! I love listening to you guys from the Eastern tradition because we pretty much agree. I would say you explain it differently. I’m Roman Catholic. I like to hear all sorts of explanations from Christians about this. I think it’s great to hear what you have to say, because I don’t hear too much difference, except in the explanation which also expands my mind more. So thank you very very much. God bless you all and keep them coming.
True leaders Are hardly known to their followers Next after them Are leaders known and admired After them Are the feared After them Are the hated To give no trust Is to get no trust When the work's done right With no fuss or boasting The people say "We did it by ourselves" From the tao te ching
In my personal life, I sacrificed my ego and pride to work on myself for my family. I gave up on a desired outcome. I knew that if I did my part, that’s all I could ask of myself. I was rewarded thankfully with an intact family, a better marriage, and a new understanding of who I am and what I was capable of. That’s what sacrifice means to me. Able likely had no expectation from his sacrifice. He didn’t do it because he wanted something in return. He did it because it was the right thing to do. Whereas, Cain gave the sacrifice expecting something in return. Intent matters. What your heart says when you do things matters.
Fantastic discussion. It blows my mind that in the act of sanctification we actually understand more and more how short we fall to the glory of our God and yet understand more and more about His amazing grace given to us through Jesus!
A little thought. To live, we have to take life. And if that taking is a waste, it weighs upon us. So that sacrifice, whatever it may be, must be offered up to something higher than itself, or else the whole world would fall apart.
I certainly don't want to present myself as knowing more than Cyril of Alexandria, But I think the goat sent into the wilderness to Azazel was NOT equated to Christs resurrection and assention, but was instead our sins sent to the wilderness and to the devil where sin belongs. Our sins were sent into the wilderness never again to be seen by anyone other than the devil. Perhaps as an indictment to the devil from God saying "this is all you get."
According to the Church Fathers, meaning is multivalent in the Scriptures, and so there is not necessarily one exclusive interpretation. However, they also asserted that there are some interpretations that are by necessity wrong.
@@JosephLucas-os1ny Agreed..Also, I have been made aware that the "wilderness" is the domicile of Satan and that anywhere that is not sacred ground is the wilderness. So, where else should the "scape goat" be sent ?
@@paulmelonas7263Very interesting. In your view it is quite literally wild, as in ungoverned by God's Law? This goes with the line of thought that I have heard spoken quite often. Everything in their rightful place. The Holiest of Holies in the center, the clergy around that, the congregation around that, the walls of the church, the gargoyls on the outside of the church and the monsters in the deep dark forest around that. Cast away the sins to its rightful place. Hmmm. Thats worth pondering I think. I myself think, much like our friend here that it is mutlivalent. That the ascension is the conquered death in the wilderness. But I like your view as well.
@@caseyhart4406 I think it's in Deut 32:8-9 where we are told that God claims Jacobs portion as his and the rest of the world is basically ( my quotes ) "injun territory." The world minus "Israel" is the "wilderness." The wilderness is governed by Azazel.
Sacrifice is very human, natural, innate, very comprehensible. But you know what is not comprehensible? Unconditional love, never-ending mercy, 7x70 forgiveness, and loving your enemy. These are unnatural, inhuman, and not innate. Which describes God best? Which are we called to be?
The Christian conception of God is that we are called to be more like God, transcending nature. It is understood that God is more than merely nature, although He is nature as well. The humanist conception of god seems to treat human beings as equatable to animals-just like animals, but “smarter” and with toys, but still animals. So to the animals, these concepts that transcend our natural instincts are indeed incomprehensible. Thus to be more like our Creator, and to follow in the footsteps of Christ, we are called to transcend our baser instincts in order to sublimate and spiritualize our lives and deeds while still living on Earth.
I wanted to like this but after listening 5 times (!!) this is still super unclear. Please, I’m begging: provide some kind of conceptual framework up front and define your terms (!!). What exactly so yoi mean by propiation vs expiation? Why won’t you just come out and say “people want to sacrifice to expiate their sins”? I absolutely don’t buy that people just want to sacrifice just because they like it or something? Is this some weird gymnastics to avoid being tol “protestant”? Also at the end, how do we prevent self-sacrifice and allowing oneself to be scapegoated from being taken advantage of by savvy / nefarious cultural forces. What is the role of Christ as truth / law bringer / judge in counter-balancing excesses of self sacrifice. Thanks, this is such an interesting topic, I just wish it were clearer!
Neopatristic modernism, like the one spoused by Pageau and other schismatic heretics relies on such ambiguity. Welcome to the religion of the future!!!
In George M Lamas’s translation from the Aramaic of the Peshita. Matthew27:46 and Mark 15:34 . Eli, Eli lemana shbakthani is translated “My God , my God , for this I was spared! “Will you comment ?
Forgive me but this interpretation of St. Cyril doesn't seem to align well with what St. Gregory Palamas says in his homily "About the Dispensation According to the flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Gifts of Grace Granted to Those Who Truly Believe in Him" where he specifically says things like ""Man was led into his captivity when he experienced God's wrath, this wrath being the good God's just abandonment of man. God had to be reconciled with the human race, for otherwise mankind could not be set free from the servitude. A sacrifice was needed to reconcile the Father on high with us and to sanctify us, since we had been soiled by fellowship with the evil one. There had to be a sacrifice which both cleansed and was clean, and a purified and sinless priest."
First sacrifice isn't that of Cain and Abel. The first sacrifice happens in the Garden of Eden, so that God can cover Adam and Eve. The first sacrifice is made by God and the last sacrifice is made by God. Cain and Abel's sacrifices are a celebration of tradition. Cain celebrated the tradition of his father Adam did, while Abel celebrated the tradition of what God did.
When you started talking about us taking on the sin of others and God wanting Solomon to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil I'm like yeah this discussion is getting a bit far fetched
Also talking about how the more we're sanctified the more we see as ourselves as repugnant to God, EVEN THOUGH that's not how God sees us. That's so absurd. Why would you not want to align your perception of yourself with God's perception of you? Is that your pride? "Given how much of a sinner I am God, there's no way you can accept/delight in me" aren't you speaking a lie against the resurrection of Christ himself? "My sins are too egregious for the sacrifice of your son to take away" raised BECAUSE of our justification.
Its a circular argument, one that makes more sense if written by men attempting to sound like a God at a time of great ignorance & failing miserably doing so. More than a higher intelligence beyond our understanding. Its not logical at all, let me explain my point: God decides he will give humans a chance at redemption, he will forgive their sins by sacrificing his son when he could choose any way of doing so such as simply waving his proverbial hand. Instead he sacrifices his son who is not really his son as it’s actually God in human form. Then, even if Jesus was a separate son, he is not actually sacrificed as we humans feel such an act to b because he doesn’t lose anything as Jesus doesnt cease to exist, instead he transcends to Heaven to sit by God for eternity, yet its not even that because God & Jesus r one in the same. Circular & nonsensical. nutshell: god sacrifices himself to himself & loses nothing while doing so yet humans should see this as an act that declares God’s love for humans. ⭕️ Thats not a metaphor beyond our understanding, its bad writing.
You obviously didn't even watch the video, or at least the whole thing. The whole point they are talking about is a refutation of the ridiculous Protestant/Catholic idea of atonement as a god who is subject to some sort idea about blood sacrifices. The Orthodox Christian idea that they're talking about is in Saint Cyril. He is saying that none of the blood sacrifices are necessary. But what was necessary is for God to enter into a universe that is subject to entropy in order to transform entropy for the sake of the whole universe. Your comments are "nonsensical" because you're fighting against a caricature that has nothing to do with Orthodox theology. If God did away with death with the wave of a hand, there would be no freedom of causation in the universe. You want a god who creates us as robots who are not free, who have to do what is good and right, and who never experience the consequences of our selfish choices. THAT is nonsensical.
@@regulaprins There is no free will if God is omnipresent. There is no past, present, or future for God. Imagine being everywhere at every moment. It knows what is happening in the moments we live as the past, present, & future. If it knows what choice we will make & what that choice leads to, then yes it is responsible for every moment, every action, every outcome. So u r less than a robot. U r a character written in a story, in the imagination of a super being.
@@tcavaloThey certainly have the effect of staving off the consequences of sin, namely death. I’ve never quite seen the Garments of Skin, given by God, as a sacrifice though.
It might depend on translation but as far as I can tell it doesn't say that God sacrifices an animal for its skins to make their garments. Unless im missing your point entirely.
Some of the Church Fathers refer to the animal skins as a symbol of death that Adam and Eve take on. I'm not aware of it being described as a sacrifice, either in the Bible or the Fathers. If it was the Father making an offering, did he offer it to himself?
Bible says don't call anyone father except the ONE in Heaven. Makes me wonder what Bible they use. What verses they took out. .Matthew 23:9 ► New International Version And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
Well Cyril is wrong, Our Father did abandon Christ on the cross and Jesus did not carry our sins with Him to the Father, He only presented Himself as the sacrifice. The Father doesn't want our sins, the sacrifice is what He wants to purge sin from YOU & sanctify YOU....never from Christ because He has no sin. Christ wants your humility, deep & sincere repentance and a changed heart & mind. We are to mimic Christ therefore the ultimate sacrifice is your life...love not your life, love God more than yourself. Re emptying yourself, DO NOT empty yourself, instead focus your thoughts on Jesus, fill yourself with Jesus, empty vessels will be filled with evil spirits
The idea that the Father abandoned the Son on the cross is a much later western interpretation. This idea is not in the text of Scripture itself, nor in early patristic interpretations.
Christ paid for our sins on the cross, He did not keep them, sorry if I offended with my bold reply, we are all flesh and blood also please see (call no one your father _Matthew 23:9)@@troothseeka4116
I had two big take aways from this amazing dialogue. First, is it hit me for the first time that Cain's sacrifice may have been 'technically' a good one, but he viewed it as transactional and that spoiled it. Sin crept into his sacrifice, he wanted something for himself out of it. Whereas I believe Able's sacrifice was done in pure Love and that pleased God. God is Love and Love is sacrifice. It is not transactional, it is not a trade. Oh, this of course is exactly what I need revealed to me at this exact moment in my life.
The other thing that was driven home to me is the wilderness. I saw so clearly that for the infinate to be complete it must include a touch of the finite. And for the finite to live it must have a touch of the infinite in it.
It feels like a song to me. The music passing back and forth from the infite into finite and back into the infinite once again. Oh that reninds me of such a wonderful quote. I dont know who said it, what a shame. "What is the shape of the universe? Music."
Praise be to God.
praise God
What a lovely comment…thank you.
The music is the shape of the universe quote. No idea who said it but it reminded me of another one of Johnathan videos discussing Jack and the beanstalk which you should check out if you haven't already.
Also liked your comment and the transactional nature of Cains sacrifice. That's a tough one to work on as well because it's hard to kill it within yourself. Like i don't think it's transactional but it's difficult whenever fasting or whatever not to have that self interest creep in. Even if it's "I'm doing this because I want to please God so that I might sing his praise in eternity." There's still that little creep of "so that I...". Good stuff though. Always something new to work on
100%. Expecting an outcome from the sacrifice taints it. The desire for it going your way blinds you from God’s path for you. It takes an open mind and heart to accept God’s lessons. Not expecting an outcome means totally giving yourself to Him and asking Him to lead you.
I need to read more of St Cyril’s commentaries on Scripture! The significance of the person of Christ as the meaning and purpose of the Law.
Loved their discussion about not raising ourselves but lowering ourselves so that God can raise us. They briefly mentioned “emptying” ourselves and I was hoping to get more clarity about that idea. I think the concept is called “kenosis”.
Orthodox Christianity speaks of two stages marking the spiritual path: the first stage is characterised by man’s strife of purifying his garden from passions and thus reaching the state of _apatheia._ The second stage is marked by God’s work within man’s emptiness.
- Michea Capruta, The Garden of the Heart
Thank you! And thank you for including a resource for me to check out.
Luke 14:8-11 Jesus said to them, "When someone invites you to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for a person more distinguished than you may have been invited. If so, the host who invited both of you will come and say to you, ‘Give this person your seat.’ Then, humiliated, you will have to take the least important place. But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, ‘Friend, move up to a better place.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all the other guests. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
The point is that our intention to lower ourselves doesn't have to be for God to elevate us, but to sincerely give ourselves in sacrifice for the love of God, without expecting anything... which I admit, it is extremely difficult, we are trained from our earliest infancy to expect something .. our original sin ..
@@huveja9799thank you for pointing the relevance of this passage for me. I will carry it with me moving forward for matters that deal with humility.
"After all this time
To believe in Jesus
After all those drugs
I thought I was Him
After all my lying
And a-crying
And my suffering
I ain't good enough
I ain't clean enough
To be Him"
- The Clash "The Sound of Sinners"
Yes, and really quickly again I noticed it the more I get close to the Lord the more I know I’m a sinner. I know that I am unworthy. And I can feel it the closer I get to the Lord Jesus. So what you’re saying is totally true, and we are living sacrifices, and we do our best! And then I listen to Jonathan and enjoy him very much.
Amen. I clean up a little corner of my heart and uncover more and more corruption.
With regards to taking blame, compare the thief on the right to Adam:
The first covers himself, hides, and blames Eve.
In a way he's correct to blame eve, but he seems to be pretending to be God by looking at the chain of causality outside himself, rather than taking blame on his part.
The thief on the other hand said:
“Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
He takes blame and instead of looking at things from above like God he confesses Christ as above him.
This is all very complicated and I'm still trying to hash it out. The Orthodox Church loves to make the connection between Adam and the thief so I'm sure there's something very profound here.
Your connection between Adam and the Thief seems to be a deeply intuitive one and that rings so true to me. Thank you so much for sharing it. As a Catholic I so enjoy listening to the insights of our Eastern Brothers and Sisters.
It is like lifting precious artifacts out of the waters of mystery to gaze upon with awe for a time, let them have their effect on us, and then place them reverently back into mystery where they belong.
Thank you! I love listening to you guys from the Eastern tradition because we pretty much agree.
I would say you explain it differently. I’m Roman Catholic. I like to hear all sorts of explanations from Christians about this.
I think it’s great to hear what you have to say, because I don’t hear too much difference,
except in the explanation which also expands my mind more. So thank you very very much.
God bless you all and keep them coming.
I am Catholic because I was born and raised in that environment, but I don't know why, I feel more comfortable with the Eastern tradition ..
True leaders
Are hardly known to their followers
Next after them
Are leaders known and admired
After them
Are the feared
After them
Are the hated
To give no trust
Is to get no trust
When the work's done right
With no fuss or boasting
The people say
"We did it by ourselves"
From the tao te ching
40:40 this blew my mind
Thanks for the bookmark. Constantly looking upward makes me feel small.
Very excited for this discussion. Thank you for your hard work and dedication, Jonathan. Praise the Holy Spirit
Great conversation, really helpful for me with how I was thinking about the difference between Cain and Abel's sacrifices.
I'm waiting for this. It is the most important topic of all
Jesus I'm sorry and trust you ✝️❤️🔥🙏
In my personal life, I sacrificed my ego and pride to work on myself for my family. I gave up on a desired outcome. I knew that if I did my part, that’s all I could ask of myself. I was rewarded thankfully with an intact family, a better marriage, and a new understanding of who I am and what I was capable of. That’s what sacrifice means to me.
Able likely had no expectation from his sacrifice. He didn’t do it because he wanted something in return. He did it because it was the right thing to do. Whereas, Cain gave the sacrifice expecting something in return.
Intent matters. What your heart says when you do things matters.
Thanks to this channel for subtitles.
Fantastic discussion. It blows my mind that in the act of sanctification we actually understand more and more how short we fall to the glory of our God and yet understand more and more about His amazing grace given to us through Jesus!
Thank you so much for this content.
A little thought. To live, we have to take life. And if that taking is a waste, it weighs upon us. So that sacrifice, whatever it may be, must be offered up to something higher than itself, or else the whole world would fall apart.
Halfway through Girards book at the moment and appreciate the insight. Found it very interesting thus far.
Glory to God ❤
This sort of conversation about a particular church father is helpful.
Worth watching!
Thanks!
Glory to God
This was really good, thank you Fr. Joseph and Jonathan. Very helpful.
This was great! Thank you so much!
Wow. Fascinating.
Sooo good. This explained so much to me. Thank you!
Thanks
Mankind....need evil to exist.......read evil backwards......LIVE
LOVE.....is the reason.....why we sacrifice
Gold
We should not want a reluctant king because Saul was reluctant. We should want a king after God’s own heart.
Girard's work is on the killing of other people as a sacrifice. You're being a bit unfair here.
I certainly don't want to present myself as knowing more than Cyril of Alexandria, But I think the goat sent into the wilderness to Azazel was NOT equated to Christs resurrection and assention, but was instead our sins sent to the wilderness and to the devil where sin belongs. Our sins were sent into the wilderness never again to be seen by anyone other than the devil. Perhaps as an indictment to the devil from God saying "this is all you get."
According to the Church Fathers, meaning is multivalent in the Scriptures, and so there is not necessarily one exclusive interpretation. However, they also asserted that there are some interpretations that are by necessity wrong.
@@JosephLucas-os1ny Agreed..Also, I have been made aware that the "wilderness" is the domicile of Satan and that anywhere that is not sacred ground is the wilderness. So, where else should the "scape goat" be
sent ?
@@paulmelonas7263Very interesting. In your view it is quite literally wild, as in ungoverned by God's Law? This goes with the line of thought that I have heard spoken quite often. Everything in their rightful place. The Holiest of Holies in the center, the clergy around that, the congregation around that, the walls of the church, the gargoyls on the outside of the church and the monsters in the deep dark forest around that. Cast away the sins to its rightful place. Hmmm. Thats worth pondering I think. I myself think, much like our friend here that it is mutlivalent. That the ascension is the conquered death in the wilderness. But I like your view as well.
@@caseyhart4406 I think it's in Deut 32:8-9 where we are told that God claims Jacobs portion as his and the rest of the world is basically ( my quotes ) "injun territory."
The world minus "Israel" is the "wilderness."
The wilderness is governed by Azazel.
💌
Sacrifice is very human, natural, innate, very comprehensible. But you know what is not comprehensible? Unconditional love, never-ending mercy, 7x70 forgiveness, and loving your enemy. These are unnatural, inhuman, and not innate. Which describes God best? Which are we called to be?
The Christian conception of God is that we are called to be more like God, transcending nature. It is understood that God is more than merely nature, although He is nature as well.
The humanist conception of god seems to treat human beings as equatable to animals-just like animals, but “smarter” and with toys, but still animals. So to the animals, these concepts that transcend our natural instincts are indeed incomprehensible.
Thus to be more like our Creator, and to follow in the footsteps of Christ, we are called to transcend our baser instincts in order to sublimate and spiritualize our lives and deeds while still living on Earth.
I wanted to like this but after listening 5 times (!!) this is still super unclear. Please, I’m begging: provide some kind of conceptual framework up front and define your terms (!!). What exactly so yoi mean by propiation vs expiation? Why won’t you just come out and say “people want to sacrifice to expiate their sins”? I absolutely don’t buy that people just want to sacrifice just because they like it or something? Is this some weird gymnastics to avoid being tol “protestant”? Also at the end, how do we prevent self-sacrifice and allowing oneself to be scapegoated from being taken advantage of by savvy / nefarious cultural forces. What is the role of Christ as truth / law bringer / judge in counter-balancing excesses of self sacrifice. Thanks, this is such an interesting topic, I just wish it were clearer!
Neopatristic modernism, like the one spoused by Pageau and other schismatic heretics relies on such ambiguity. Welcome to the religion of the future!!!
Fr. Joseph 🙌🙌🙌☦️
In George M Lamas’s translation from the Aramaic of the Peshita. Matthew27:46 and Mark 15:34 . Eli, Eli lemana shbakthani is translated “My God , my God , for this I was spared! “Will you comment ?
Forgive me but this interpretation of St. Cyril doesn't seem to align well with what St. Gregory Palamas says in his homily "About the Dispensation According to the flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Gifts of Grace Granted to Those Who Truly Believe in Him" where he specifically says things like ""Man was led into his captivity when he experienced God's wrath, this wrath being the good God's just abandonment of man. God had to be reconciled with the human race, for otherwise mankind could not be set free from the servitude. A sacrifice was needed to reconcile the Father on high with us and to sanctify us, since we had been soiled by fellowship with the evil one. There had to be a sacrifice which both cleansed and was clean, and a purified and sinless priest."
First sacrifice isn't that of Cain and Abel. The first sacrifice happens in the Garden of Eden, so that God can cover Adam and Eve.
The first sacrifice is made by God and the last sacrifice is made by God.
Cain and Abel's sacrifices are a celebration of tradition. Cain celebrated the tradition of his father Adam did, while Abel celebrated the tradition of what God did.
Jonathan in your opinion how close are we to Tribulations and what are your arguments for or against a pre trib rapture? Thank you very much!
When you started talking about us taking on the sin of others and God wanting Solomon to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil I'm like yeah this discussion is getting a bit far fetched
Also talking about how the more we're sanctified the more we see as ourselves as repugnant to God, EVEN THOUGH that's not how God sees us. That's so absurd.
Why would you not want to align your perception of yourself with God's perception of you? Is that your pride? "Given how much of a sinner I am God, there's no way you can accept/delight in me" aren't you speaking a lie against the resurrection of Christ himself? "My sins are too egregious for the sacrifice of your son to take away" raised BECAUSE of our justification.
All sacrifice is made to the Wicked One and the greatest sin.
Its a circular argument, one that makes more sense if written by men attempting to sound like a God at a time of great ignorance & failing miserably doing so. More than a higher intelligence beyond our understanding. Its not logical at all, let me explain my point:
God decides he will give humans a chance at redemption, he will forgive their sins by sacrificing his son when he could choose any way of doing so such as simply waving his proverbial hand. Instead he sacrifices his son who is not really his son as it’s actually God in human form.
Then, even if Jesus was a separate son, he is not actually sacrificed as we humans feel such an act to b because he doesn’t lose anything as Jesus doesnt cease to exist, instead he transcends to Heaven to sit by God for eternity, yet its not even that because God & Jesus r one in the same.
Circular & nonsensical.
nutshell: god sacrifices himself to himself & loses nothing while doing so yet humans should see this as an act that declares God’s love for humans. ⭕️
Thats not a metaphor beyond our understanding, its bad writing.
You obviously didn't even watch the video, or at least the whole thing. The whole point they are talking about is a refutation of the ridiculous Protestant/Catholic idea of atonement as a god who is subject to some sort idea about blood sacrifices.
The Orthodox Christian idea that they're talking about is in Saint Cyril. He is saying that none of the blood sacrifices are necessary. But what was necessary is for God to enter into a universe that is subject to entropy in order to transform entropy for the sake of the whole universe.
Your comments are "nonsensical" because you're fighting against a caricature that has nothing to do with Orthodox theology. If God did away with death with the wave of a hand, there would be no freedom of causation in the universe. You want a god who creates us as robots who are not free, who have to do what is good and right, and who never experience the consequences of our selfish choices. THAT is nonsensical.
@@regulaprins There is no free will if God is omnipresent. There is no past, present, or future for God. Imagine being everywhere at every moment. It knows what is happening in the moments we live as the past, present, & future. If it knows what choice we will make & what that choice leads to, then yes it is responsible for every moment, every action, every outcome.
So u r less than a robot. U r a character written in a story, in the imagination of a super being.
@@friedricengravy6646I know this may be shocking, but God is not you with superpowers.
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You can not sacrifice to God what is God's, you can only sacrifice what is God's to some other entity.
Sacrifice is one of tenets of paganism.
Isn't the first sacrifice performed by God to cover for our sin ?- Genesis 3:21
How can the skins of animals cover the actions of our sins?
@@tcavaloThey certainly have the effect of staving off the consequences of sin, namely death.
I’ve never quite seen the Garments of Skin, given by God, as a sacrifice though.
It might depend on translation but as far as I can tell it doesn't say that God sacrifices an animal for its skins to make their garments. Unless im missing your point entirely.
@@jl4571 Indeed, it doesn't, as far as I know, but I believe it is implied as he kills it to cover for us. Death makes its entrance there
Some of the Church Fathers refer to the animal skins as a symbol of death that Adam and Eve take on. I'm not aware of it being described as a sacrifice, either in the Bible or the Fathers. If it was the Father making an offering, did he offer it to himself?
🤔…until 6:26
i very much appreciate how it is Mr. Goldenpage references much of the sacred without having to read it from an analog source at the same time.
and again 🧐…🤔…😶🌫️… 🤣 at 14:14
Bible says don't call anyone father except the ONE in Heaven. Makes me wonder what Bible they use. What verses they took out. .Matthew 23:9 ►
New International Version
And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
Well Cyril is wrong, Our Father did abandon Christ on the cross and Jesus did not carry our sins with Him to the Father, He only presented Himself as the sacrifice. The Father doesn't want our sins, the sacrifice is what He wants to purge sin from YOU & sanctify YOU....never from Christ because He has no sin. Christ wants your humility, deep & sincere repentance and a changed heart & mind. We are to mimic Christ therefore the ultimate sacrifice is your life...love not your life, love God more than yourself. Re emptying yourself, DO NOT empty yourself, instead focus your thoughts on Jesus, fill yourself with Jesus, empty vessels will be filled with evil spirits
Starting anything off with “Saint _____ is wrong” is pretty bold😭
Paul says in Corinthians that Christ became sin for us. Please do not be so quick to dismiss a church father, rather try to understand with charity.
The idea that the Father abandoned the Son on the cross is a much later western interpretation. This idea is not in the text of Scripture itself, nor in early patristic interpretations.
true, see Proverbs 28:1@@parker.simmons4
Christ paid for our sins on the cross, He did not keep them, sorry if I offended with my bold reply, we are all flesh and blood also please see (call no one your father _Matthew 23:9)@@troothseeka4116
When God looks at you he sees Jesus on the cross, who washed away your sins, if you are a follower of his Son.
When God looks at you he sees...you, who he loves.
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